I've gone through a bunch of Moonlander review videos now, and what I dont get is why nobody ever shows how the thumb clusters actually work in practice. Sure I can see myself pressing the 3 tall keys easily... but how the heck do folks press the red triangular key without pressing one of the other thumb keys? do they lift their hand up (what fantastic ergonomics!)?
I've been using the board for about 9 months now and I can say that the red key isn't mapped in my config to anything that I would want to use while typing normally. I have both instead mapped to swap to one of my macro layers with the left red switch swapping to it, and the right keyboard panel holding my macros.
@@matthewcavalier1658 thank you for the feedback! I can only try to imagine how it would be like for me if i got it. Getting feedback from actual owners is great
For future readers, the red keys are meant to be programmed with custom shortcuts or commands that you don't run very often. The manufacturer describes them as "launch" keys, and they also have a different keypress feel to them.
My fiancee ordered me one for Christmas it came in the middle of January. She told me on Christmas day that she had ordered one after that I was on the configurator playing with the settings I had a decent layout to try once I got it. After I got it I tweaked it to perfection for me. I love this keyboard it is amazing. Looking forward to watching the comparison video keep up the good work.
For anyone looking at this recently (November/December 2021), my SO ordered this for me for Christmas and it arrived within 2 weeks, on time for Christmas. I think they setup their mass production
Something not mentioned with modding it is that you can browse through other peoples layouts. They also have a new thing to import specific things like a Photoshop layer the community made. Most of those are also annotated with a walk through showing interesting features and why they were used. I switched to Colemak-DH layout with the Moonlander. I simply copied someone's layout and was up and running right away hitting up the online typing tutors. That let me experiment with the rest at leisure. I think cmd alt ctrl on the thumb keys is wrong for the stretching reasons in the video. Better to space tab return backspace etc. Keep the control keys in their normal spot. Or have them be hold keys on the home row.
Man this is the best review. I jumped straight to things you don't like, and although my moonlander is still on the way, i can immediately tell that these are my pain points. The default keymaps? Just by looking at the comfiguration on their web tool i can tell it is bad. Too bad actually that I almost believe they use it as a test-bed to show off their features instead of providing decent out-of-the-box typing experience.
@@AllenUnderwood Thanks! I have always been using my custom QMK firmware on my two 60% ANSI keyboards, with tons of tweaks. IT IS THE BEST. I need to buy a new keyboard because one of them has a broken switch. The fact that moonlander runs QMK is a major reason I chose it. I believe the way to perfection is to update my firmware to support Moonlander (and I have to give up Oryx. It is a damn good tool). However I'm still trying to get used to the columnar layout. After I really start using it for some days I realize that staggered layout *is* better than columnar. It's not random rant. I have some good arguments. I wish I could give a video that explains what I mean, but I never did that on TH-cam, and I don't speak good English.
Thank you for your amazing reviews. I am comparing the Moonlander and the Kinesis Advantage 2 (which I viewed your review already) righ now. I have some problems with my shoulder and also my fingers are making some pain from time to time. So from your point of view, what would be the better / best ergonomic keyboard in that case? Thank you so much.
@@chaitanya-varu , I have made a long voyage since that Video. First I used a Ergodox EZ for a while, then I supported the kickstarter campaing of the Dygma Defy (which has arrived two weeks ago), but that one has far to much thumb keys. Just today the ZSA Voyager arrived and THIS IS IT! The formfactor is incredible and my personal opinion about the price: it's worth it. Using the international keykaps for a german layout.
00:09:50 Am I seeing wrong or did you use a switch puller to remove a keycap? :o Also, great review! I'm most likely going to get this keyboard, the layers will be a game changer for me. I'd like to say no to spending so much money (again), but it just has so many cool things going for it... Edit: How on earth do these time stamps work...
With the Kinesis Advantage 360 out, I'll be selling the Moonlander. While I like the Moonlander, I had a Kinesis Advantage QD before without issue whatsoever. With the moonlander, even after a year of consistent use, I notice a significant decrease in typing speed and a significant increase in hand cramping. A lot of the "techy" things I like about the Moonlander are now available with the Kinesis Advantage 360 Pro (such as open-sourced keyboard layout/customization). Granted ZMK is behind Oryx, it'll get there.... I'll say this: I regret not just waiting for the Kinesis Advantage 360
Video comment: Excellent review(s). Came across your channel recently and it's been lovely. Adding my xp below to help anyone else searching: You can order two extra support knobs to fill the extra spots (~5:40 in the vid). The company has stated they don't offer them as the 'base' because they feel it encourages bad positions, but you can get them. They also have a...I don't know what the word is. Do-it-yourself? Open-source? Community? People 3D print stuff for this keyboard. You can purchase (rather cheaply, insofar as I know - another review I saw got their support thingy for ~20 USD). They still quote ~two weeks to ship, but mine arrived in a little over a week. I think the moonlander is more suited to people who are willing to sacrifice some features for portability and a slight bit of customizability - compared to the kensis which seems to have a better base typing experience, but there's no way in HECK I would be able to log a kinesis around, lol. I also like that you can move the separate sides around where you like, for people who value that kind of thing. I specifically got the moonlander because I travel - if I was sitting at home more, I probably would have gone for the kinesis. That thing is an absolute UNIT. I will add that I would have preferred a sturdier carrying case for the moonlander - it's *nice*, but it isn't perfect. It's squishy. It fits in my backpack, which was the main goal, but the thumb extension parts would worry me in transit if I was a bit of a rougher person. +1 to wanting more keys per thumb, though. I can see why they might have gone for the big red key, but I would have preferred they just split that red key into two..Don't know why they did that. The base key layout is also lackluster, but I'm not too deep into my career yet, and I'm not a programmer (yet), so it doesn't really bother me much. This is also a factor, but the moonlander is a small company in Taiwan, while the Kinesis is on Amazon. The moonlander folks do NOT, insofar as I know, sell on Amazon, so if you end up not liking it their policy requires that you pay return shipping...Which is a pretty penny, depending on where you live. You won't be getting that 'we lubricated your keys with the blood of two warehouse workers and shot another one out of a cannon to make your return easier' sort of thing you get with Amazon. TLDR: Portability and customization? Moonlander. Need something hunkier with more keys that can also be used to bludgeon your enemies to death? Kinesis (also has f# keys, which may be relevant - you can bind them somewhere on the moonlander if you want, but there's not already present specific keys for them). It is definitely worth noting that the Moonlander has an accessories section & a 'community creations' thing where you can order 3D printed stuff to further customize the keyboard. I don't know to what extent (if at all) the kinesis folks offer this kind of thing.
One thing that you can do to see what layer you are on is to change the rgb light. I usually don't have rgb light on but I have it light up on one key that I can easily glance down and know which layer I'm on when I'm lost.
Did you find the plastics are cracking? Every thing was great at first but after daily driving it for over a year the thumb module has broken off completely and the other thumb modules has cracks in the same place, won't be long before it gives up too. I didn't really think it would be that big of a deal to just buy a spare part their blog even gives a price list and tells you to contact support. There is a reason they don't sell the spares in their online store its because they don't sell spares PERIOD. They will only support you for the initial purchase and warranty so these longer term issues from daily wear mean you are going to have to buy a new one every year.
this is a brilliant keyboard. changed to Colemak DH and loving the layout after 30minutes. Cherry Red silent keys. Had to uninstall thrustmaster drivers to be able to flash
I've been using mine for about a year now and just got the platform today I really love this keyboard and still mess with my layout quite regularly creating macros and combo keys and layers. This keyboard is the most modular and modifiable keyboard I've ever used and believe I will use this thing for the rest of my days using a computer. I have so many keybinds that I use regularly for all my programs I've boosted my productivity and typing speed incredibly since I started using this keyboard. I adore it, it's so sturdy and comfortable. I don't even know what to say beyond this honestly I have basically no complaints this thing is my love.
Out of interest, what other split keyboards have you had experience with? I think there are at least a dozen other keyboards that have better thumb clusters? You should also check out the DACTYL-MANUFORM.
At 9:50 you use the keyboard switch/cap tool wrong. The end you used was for the switches not the keycaps. Not a big deal but you can nick the edges on the caps.
bro u made the best comments about the things you don't like. i also can't see the LED's and the thing makes my blues a liiitle loud. also got my backspace on the left edge column too. loving the keyboard tho, love that my shoulders can rest naturally
Seems like you should have purchased the Ergodox EZ. I love it. I have been thinking about getting the Moonlander but I do not like the thumb cluster. I like the thumb layout of the Ergodox EZ
I still revise my layout a couple times a week on average but I absolutely love this keyboard. I swapped out the stock keys for Gateron Red Pro V2 switches but kept the keycaps because they've really grown on me. Gaming on this has definitely been a learning curve. Just regular typing has been fantastic with only a few days of performance drop off. But competitive shooters that rely heavily on muscle memory were a bit of a challenge. Definitely felt like I was throwing the match for my team the first week of use. But after a few more cycles of remapping for specific games I'm roughly back to previous proficiency. So play some unranked games and you should be fine. I don't play MMOs but a friend of mine that does is drooling over the possibilities. Anyway, the big take away is that along with an adjustable height desk my RSI has healed and my fibro can be calm for an hour or three even after work. It's such a huge quality of life increase. I've been telling everyone and their dog about this keyboard, 110% recommend.
Re: the indicator LEDs being out of sight: you can alleviate this by using layer specific lighting. I normally hate RGB stuff and keep it turned off, but since I'm using the Moonlander with the Platform the builtin LEDs are permanently out of my view. So I now have the three keys on the innermost part of the board light up the way the indicators would so I always know at a glance which layer is active without getting a full-on light show.
Thank you so much for this video! I myself am currently struggling with pain in my hands and am looking for a better keyboard - this really helped me, i think i'll get this keyboard - thank you :) Have some cookies for your efforts! 🍪🍪🍪🍪
If you're looking to relieve pain in your hands, my personal favorite is the Kinesis Advantage 2. I'd take a look at that one over this one for that situation
If you miss one key in the thumbs sections, the ergodox ez would be a best choice with more buttons in these sections. However, the ergodox ez can't bend like the moonlander which is something I would kill to try but sadly 600$CAD to try is out of reach for me if I want to retire before my seventies :D
I found changing the layout made this keyboard perfect for me. It was probably about 2 months before I was 100% happy it, but now I love it. A friend of mine has bought one, and is going through the same problems right now. He uses my layout, but still isn't quite there. It is definitely a time sink of a keyboard!
No question there - it's a bit of a double edged sword. It can be frustrating getting to where it works right for you, but once you get there it is a nice typing experience.
Yes, the standard layout is so bad and incomplete... you even need two right pinky fingers for some keys. It's very confusing, cause most people I think would assume that the default layout was actually well put together. It's definitely not. With this keyboard, you HAVE to invent your own layout, or use that of another user. The latter they made super easy though, so that's pretty great.
I thought that all of the different websites didn't describe the keyboards very well. Thirty six layers is fantastic! I ordered the blank keys because I will be using four languages: English, Spanish, Russian and classical Latin. I program with vim and I add that layout to Firefox with the Vimium C addon, I often use vi editing mode in the shell. I setup tmux to be vim compatible. I really like the hyper and meh keys because I use really complicated key sequences in Fvwm3. I am waiting for it to arrive. I think that using the mounting holes in the center, it ought to be easy to make a plate with some arms to fix it in place at different angles. I had a construction company, so we fabricated sheet metal flashing and other brackets all the time. Thanks for the best review on this keyboard I have seen.
OK, I really like the thumbcluster lifted. I need a support 1.5 inches high under it. Some velcro tape and I need to cut a block with a slight angle. With small hands, it just has to be up, not down.
And my hunt for a decent Ergo keyboard continues. I'm currently using a dygma raise, but having no F keys and basic functions is such a pain. Don't even get me started on Layers, I don't want to learn an invisible keyboard lay out.
I'm not going to lie - the layers is more than a little daunting for me. Until there's a keyboard with LCD keycaps that change for the layer you're on, I think it's a niche group of people trying to switch back and forth between DVORAK or some other layout they're trying to learn. Maybe 2-3 layers - but more than that would seem really hard for someone to memorize.
I don't know.. I mean when you think about it, using any modifier keys is using an invisible keyboard layer. Usually keyboards print the shifted symbols and fn key alternatives, but still.. Copy/paste is using CTRL as a layer. You just have to think about what makes sense for you to be able to remember. Even if it is giving the arrow keys multiple functions like volume/skip, moving mouse via keys, etc that is still useful (the default layout puts those functions both on the same layer, but if you split it out, you could just use the arrow keys for both, etc). Plus, the moonlander lets you customize the LED color per key per layer. So you can easily light them up certain ways to help you remember what is what on a particular layer.
Have this on order. There is a tenting bracket now that might be useful for some. I really want this for all my 3d software. I can make Layers for Zbrush, Blender, 3DCoat, etc etc and sub layers for Blender modelling, rigging, animation. Also coding I find the std layout very annoying for coding.
i recommend you get a 'Reflex Lab Large Extended Gaming Mouse Pad Mat XXL, Stitched Edges, Waterproof, Ultra Thick 5mm, Wide & Long Mousepad 36”x12”x.20"' for that slick surface your working on. if you can afford a moonlander you can surely afford a good mousepad, they're only about $25 on sale. or a rubber floor mat repurposed would work too.
I understand you would recommend the Kinesis Advantage 2 over the Moonlander for someone with tendon issues? I suffer from great inner side arms pain and I'm not sure which keyboard to pick, I have small hands and have been using a QWERTY layout since ever. Great video!
@@AllenUnderwood I heard it's pretty good too, but read a review saying it may be not so comfortable for people with small hands, so that's why I'm doubting now
@@xBeyondMystery I haven't used any of those but from pictures they look better choices. I saw your other comment and agree with the reviewer that said the kenisis advantage is not great for small hands either. I've got an Atreus and that feels great key placement wise but a split feels better for me so I can have it tented. I've actually adapted the moonlander to use a 34 key layout for now but it doesn't use any of the intended thumb keys, see i.imgur.com/uqfndgi.png The key placement still doesn't feel quite as nice as the Atreus though so there must be better options out there.
Do you know, how is the key distance compared to the olkb preonic keyboard? I have a preonic and I want to move to a moolander. The key distance is OK for me on the preonic so I wonder, if the key distance is bigger also compared to the preonic of it is a thing only compared to other keybords.
have you used the kineses freestyle? i presently use that keyboard, and its the best ive had so far. i need to buy a new keyboard for office, and this was a contender. i have nasty ulnar tunnel issues, the kinesis palm pads keep everything at bay in conjunction with the split and 90 deg elbows.
Switched from mx-browns to mx-reds and I absolutely love it. I may be a particular case given I touch-punch (touch-type & punch) my keys so the tactile *click* is me pressing the key down to the very bottom most times.
To me, a keyboard must be concave. The sculptured keycaps emulate the concave keyboard but only to a small degree. And it must support bluetooth. I want the same comfort with tablets, phones, etc. I cannot type on a toy bluetooth keyboard. Or on a laptop or notebook keyboard. Or on any anti-ergonomic keyboard such as Microsoft class-action-waiting-to-happen Sculpt. So Kinesis Advantage360 Pro or Glove80 is the answer. Forget QMK, long live ZMK!
Too bad there's realistically only 2 keys per thumb on Kinesis for people with smaller hands. That's not enough for having space, backspace, delete, ctrl, alt and one layout modifier key for your thumbs to access.
Thank you for this super detailed review! The problem of cables jamming keys is something I experienced myself on another keyboard with low profile case.
which keyboard buttons do you recommend to have the most silent ones to buy with this key board together because i rechearched already on that main hompage but for me they sounds all the same. maybe i cant identify the different so thats why i would be really happy if you could let me know which one are the most quitest. thanks and thumps up, really good video.
Even though it'd cost extra, I did see it has a screw mount under it like for cameras. That means you could use an octo mount (like the one the Keyboario M01 or M100 uses) instead of its leg system. Would make portability worse though.
Question can i use only the right side to game with ? how long of a connection cable can i get to move the left side off of desk ? any help i appreciate thanks
Even though it'd cost extra, I did see it has a screw mount under it like for cameras. That means you could use an octo mount (like the Keyboario M01 or M100 uses) instead of its leg system.
Thanks for the extensive review. Great camera shots and mic. I think you could shave off 10 minutes with a more focused flow of points to avoid repetition. It got kinda long to wrap up. I'm also curious about reaching for far keys. Did you try adjusting the angle for hand size?
I was torn between this and the Dygma Raise. In the end, I went for the Raise. My neighbour has had the moonlander for about a year and she loves it. That keyboard is her baby.
@@chroniccarelessness So, I was torn between the Raise and the Moonlander, and it came down to the nitty gritty details. I was lucky enough to know people who own them and let me give them a try. They are both great keyboards, but the tenting system on the moonlander is only stable as very specific angles, and the Raise just came with a better starter kit and carrying case. And it just felt better for me. The Raise has a point against it for still being a staggered layout, so if you have to have a columnar layout then moonlander may be better. That being said, Dygma is coming out with the Dygma Defy, which is columnar.
This is an excellent and really informative review! I am thinking about giving it a try, however as a developer not having F keys really bugs me. Regarding the thumb clusters, how far away do you have to stretch your thumb to reach the thumb keys, in comparison to the kinesis advantage 2? Because Wwen I was trying out the kinesis advantage 2 I immediatly felt pain when reaching for the space with my thumb
I don't know.. F key shortcuts has always been hard for me to do without looking and causes big stretches of the fingers. I think it might actually be an advantage if you can easily hold the layer and modifier keys at the same time with one hand and hit any F key with the letters on the other hand. Or remapping the common shortcuts away from the F keys. A lot of the intellij ones at least seem very random (besides F2 for rename).
Have you heard about the Keyboardio Model 100? It is an ergonomic, split keyboard with five thumb keys per side. It's also fully programmable, saves the layers and settings on the hardware. You can even swap out the key switches without soldering. It's genius. If everything goes well, it will be available in early 2022. I have pre-ordered mine. You should really check it out. Maybe it will solve some of the problems you have with the Moonlander.
It does look pretty nice and I'm considering it as well (the Kickstarter is done but is still on Indiegogo). The palm button is unique, as is the mouse "warping" feature in their firmware. The molded keycaps are good and bad: more ergo without being actual keywells, but you can't just stick any keycaps on. The camera screw mount under it is neat. Seems to open up a lot of positioning possibilities (there's lots of random clamps and stuff out there for cameras). The thumb buttons seem nicely laid out. Actually, I just looked and didn't realize the Moonlander has one too. So you probably could use the same or similar base for the Moonlander as the Keyboardia. That'd probably help for that situation where you want to tent it but have the thumb up at the same time, or something that doesn't slide as much. Looks like it is heavier than the Moonlander (2.3lbs vs 1.6lbs), though not sure if that is including their stands or not.
I don't know about this honestly. A lot of the cheaper options usually require doing your own 3d printing and/or soldering stuff yourself. Look around at how much hot swappable boards are, plus switches, plus keycaps, plus key-specific LEDs, etc. This thing is a similar cost to the Kinesis Advantage 2 (the 360 will cost more), the Keyboardio M100, etc. If you don't need as many keys, don't need lights, don't need built-in tenting, etc. you can get a pre-built keyboard for cheaper. The Keyboardio Atreus might be a good option at $150.
I compare this to phone prices, life time expectancy of this keyboard is easily 10+ years, and i use it for work. I dispose phone about every 3 years. Its worth it if you feel pain while typing, and willing to master using it. I bought it, and switched to dvorak, pain is gone, quality of life increaded, it was worth the investment in my eyes. If you are fine using standard qwerty keyboard maybe its not for you (and thats fine), its a speciality item tailored for people that really need the ergonomic part - and that part is worth the money you need to pay for it
Vim _isn't_ everything, but I've yet to find an IDE or "super-editor" worth using that doesn't have a good vim emulator plugin. Heck, VS Code can run a full-fledged NeoVim editor inside it, combining the best of both! I've also spent most of the last 2 decades writing all my C++ and Python in Vim, because Linux was basically my IDE -- and "intellisense" tools for C++ sucked until recently, anyway. Though all that said, I still have plenty of other uses for arrow keys and the Delete key, which is why I haven't given them up. Also, Neovim is getting pretty close to becoming a fully customizable IDE in a way Vim has never quite managed. See the LunarVim IDE defaults.
Sorry but I have to say that it made me cringe when you used the switch puller to take off a key cap. Great way to scratch the hell out of a perfectly good key cap. The wire side of the tool is designed to safely remove key caps without scratching them. Just saying.
Picked up this keyboard last year and I did some work on it, to learn how well I could use it. Turned out I was way faster and better with a regular keyboard, some regular exercises, and some strength training and stretches. Regular mechanical keyboards are just fine for most people. What's required is a change in the lifestyle of the users, so that they don't hurt themselves through excessive uncomfortable use of keyboards owing to bad positions and repetitive strain. Gimmicky keyboards like the Moonlander are a) not for everyone due to the significant learning curve, b) not guaranteed to solve repetitive strain or carpal tunnel problems
While I agree with you that lifestyle changes are the most important factors when it comes to pain, there is a ton of science that shows things like splitting the keyboard to prevent ulnar deviation, and tenting the keyboard as well as other positioning reduces pressure on joints and tendons when having to type for long periods of time. These positioning elements are universal and objectively better than a standard keyboard. Does it have to be a moonlander? No. However people should definitely get a split keyboard with a slight tenting angle if they are going to be typing for 8+ hours per day.
I see replies here about pronation, split keyboard layout and so on - perhaps that is important, but the more important thing is holistic health where you don't have to use a computer and keyboard all the time
9:53 - You're using the key puller wrong. It's the other tool for the keycaps, you're using the switch tool on the cap which can scratch the cap.
I've gone through a bunch of Moonlander review videos now, and what I dont get is why nobody ever shows how the thumb clusters actually work in practice. Sure I can see myself pressing the 3 tall keys easily... but how the heck do folks press the red triangular key without pressing one of the other thumb keys? do they lift their hand up (what fantastic ergonomics!)?
I've been using the board for about 9 months now and I can say that the red key isn't mapped in my config to anything that I would want to use while typing normally. I have both instead mapped to swap to one of my macro layers with the left red switch swapping to it, and the right keyboard panel holding my macros.
@@matthewcavalier1658 thank you for the feedback! I can only try to imagine how it would be like for me if i got it. Getting feedback from actual owners is great
Yes, you definitely do have to rotate your hands quite a bit to hit those clusters and use them effectively. Not the best from an ergo perspective.
It’s not for your thumb….
For future readers, the red keys are meant to be programmed with custom shortcuts or commands that you don't run very often. The manufacturer describes them as "launch" keys, and they also have a different keypress feel to them.
My fiancee ordered me one for Christmas it came in the middle of January. She told me on Christmas day that she had ordered one after that I was on the configurator playing with the settings I had a decent layout to try once I got it. After I got it I tweaked it to perfection for me. I love this keyboard it is amazing. Looking forward to watching the comparison video keep up the good work.
That's excellent! Thanks for sharing and for the kind words!
For anyone looking at this recently (November/December 2021), my SO ordered this for me for Christmas and it arrived within 2 weeks, on time for Christmas. I think they setup their mass production
Something not mentioned with modding it is that you can browse through other peoples layouts. They also have a new thing to import specific things like a Photoshop layer the community made. Most of those are also annotated with a walk through showing interesting features and why they were used. I switched to Colemak-DH layout with the Moonlander. I simply copied someone's layout and was up and running right away hitting up the online typing tutors. That let me experiment with the rest at leisure.
I think cmd alt ctrl on the thumb keys is wrong for the stretching reasons in the video. Better to space tab return backspace etc. Keep the control keys in their normal spot. Or have them be hold keys on the home row.
Man this is the best review. I jumped straight to things you don't like, and although my moonlander is still on the way, i can immediately tell that these are my pain points. The default keymaps? Just by looking at the comfiguration on their web tool i can tell it is bad. Too bad actually that I almost believe they use it as a test-bed to show off their features instead of providing decent out-of-the-box typing experience.
Awesome! It'll definitely take some patience to get the thing how you want it to be. Best of luck!
I’ll be switching it to Dvorak, anyway. What I hope is that I can set up a macro for em dash and en dash Mac shortcuts.
@@AllenUnderwood Thanks! I have always been using my custom QMK firmware on my two 60% ANSI keyboards, with tons of tweaks. IT IS THE BEST. I need to buy a new keyboard because one of them has a broken switch. The fact that moonlander runs QMK is a major reason I chose it. I believe the way to perfection is to update my firmware to support Moonlander (and I have to give up Oryx. It is a damn good tool).
However I'm still trying to get used to the columnar layout. After I really start using it for some days I realize that staggered layout *is* better than columnar. It's not random rant. I have some good arguments. I wish I could give a video that explains what I mean, but I never did that on TH-cam, and I don't speak good English.
Thank you for your amazing reviews. I am comparing the Moonlander and the Kinesis Advantage 2 (which I viewed your review already) righ now. I have some problems with my shoulder and also my fingers are making some pain from time to time. So from your point of view, what would be the better / best ergonomic keyboard in that case? Thank you so much.
@axelrudolf5491 Which one did you selected?
@@chaitanya-varu , I have made a long voyage since that Video. First I used a Ergodox EZ for a while, then I supported the kickstarter campaing of the Dygma Defy (which has arrived two weeks ago), but that one has far to much thumb keys. Just today the ZSA Voyager arrived and THIS IS IT! The formfactor is incredible and my personal opinion about the price: it's worth it. Using the international keykaps for a german layout.
00:09:50 Am I seeing wrong or did you use a switch puller to remove a keycap? :o
Also, great review! I'm most likely going to get this keyboard, the layers will be a game changer for me. I'd like to say no to spending so much money (again), but it just has so many cool things going for it...
Edit: How on earth do these time stamps work...
LOL...maybe I used it wrong...but...it worked?! :-) I didn't actually pull any of the switches though. I was skeered...
With the Kinesis Advantage 360 out, I'll be selling the Moonlander. While I like the Moonlander, I had a Kinesis Advantage QD before without issue whatsoever. With the moonlander, even after a year of consistent use, I notice a significant decrease in typing speed and a significant increase in hand cramping. A lot of the "techy" things I like about the Moonlander are now available with the Kinesis Advantage 360 Pro (such as open-sourced keyboard layout/customization). Granted ZMK is behind Oryx, it'll get there.... I'll say this: I regret not just waiting for the Kinesis Advantage 360
Just noticed the 360, looks very nice with BT connection.
The keys are switchable. You only showed how to switch the keycaps. You can do that with any keyboard.
Video comment: Excellent review(s). Came across your channel recently and it's been lovely.
Adding my xp below to help anyone else searching:
You can order two extra support knobs to fill the extra spots (~5:40 in the vid). The company has stated they don't offer them as the 'base' because they feel it encourages bad positions, but you can get them.
They also have a...I don't know what the word is. Do-it-yourself? Open-source? Community? People 3D print stuff for this keyboard. You can purchase (rather cheaply, insofar as I know - another review I saw got their support thingy for ~20 USD).
They still quote ~two weeks to ship, but mine arrived in a little over a week. I think the moonlander is more suited to people who are willing to sacrifice some features for portability and a slight bit of customizability - compared to the kensis which seems to have a better base typing experience, but there's no way in HECK I would be able to log a kinesis around, lol. I also like that you can move the separate sides around where you like, for people who value that kind of thing.
I specifically got the moonlander because I travel - if I was sitting at home more, I probably would have gone for the kinesis. That thing is an absolute UNIT.
I will add that I would have preferred a sturdier carrying case for the moonlander - it's *nice*, but it isn't perfect. It's squishy. It fits in my backpack, which was the main goal, but the thumb extension parts would worry me in transit if I was a bit of a rougher person.
+1 to wanting more keys per thumb, though. I can see why they might have gone for the big red key, but I would have preferred they just split that red key into two..Don't know why they did that. The base key layout is also lackluster, but I'm not too deep into my career yet, and I'm not a programmer (yet), so it doesn't really bother me much.
This is also a factor, but the moonlander is a small company in Taiwan, while the Kinesis is on Amazon. The moonlander folks do NOT, insofar as I know, sell on Amazon, so if you end up not liking it their policy requires that you pay return shipping...Which is a pretty penny, depending on where you live. You won't be getting that 'we lubricated your keys with the blood of two warehouse workers and shot another one out of a cannon to make your return easier' sort of thing you get with Amazon.
TLDR: Portability and customization? Moonlander. Need something hunkier with more keys that can also be used to bludgeon your enemies to death? Kinesis (also has f# keys, which may be relevant - you can bind them somewhere on the moonlander if you want, but there's not already present specific keys for them).
It is definitely worth noting that the Moonlander has an accessories section & a 'community creations' thing where you can order 3D printed stuff to further customize the keyboard. I don't know to what extent (if at all) the kinesis folks offer this kind of thing.
Thank you!
One thing that you can do to see what layer you are on is to change the rgb light. I usually don't have rgb light on but I have it light up on one key that I can easily glance down and know which layer I'm on when I'm lost.
Really wanting one of these.
Thank you for going through some critical features (Key layers, etc). Super appreciated.
Looks like the real deal.
Did you find the plastics are cracking? Every thing was great at first but after daily driving it for over a year the thumb module has broken off completely and the other thumb modules has cracks in the same place, won't be long before it gives up too. I didn't really think it would be that big of a deal to just buy a spare part their blog even gives a price list and tells you to contact support. There is a reason they don't sell the spares in their online store its because they don't sell spares PERIOD. They will only support you for the initial purchase and warranty so these longer term issues from daily wear mean you are going to have to buy a new one every year.
2 year warranty should protect this issue.
this is a brilliant keyboard. changed to Colemak DH and loving the layout after 30minutes. Cherry Red silent keys. Had to uninstall thrustmaster drivers to be able to flash
I've been using mine for about a year now and just got the platform today I really love this keyboard and still mess with my layout quite regularly creating macros and combo keys and layers. This keyboard is the most modular and modifiable keyboard I've ever used and believe I will use this thing for the rest of my days using a computer. I have so many keybinds that I use regularly for all my programs I've boosted my productivity and typing speed incredibly since I started using this keyboard. I adore it, it's so sturdy and comfortable. I don't even know what to say beyond this honestly I have basically no complaints this thing is my love.
Out of interest, what other split keyboards have you had experience with? I think there are at least a dozen other keyboards that have better thumb clusters? You should also check out the DACTYL-MANUFORM.
I have been using the Dygma raise for a year with tenting kit and I don’t think I could go for anything else except maybe their new wireless model.
At 9:50 you use the keyboard switch/cap tool wrong. The end you used was for the switches not the keycaps. Not a big deal but you can nick the edges on the caps.
Thanks!
Thanks for the review, I've been waiting for it for quite a while.
Sorry for the delay - the beginning of this year threw many monkey wrenches into my plans
@@AllenUnderwood No worries. :)
bro u made the best comments about the things you don't like. i also can't see the LED's and the thing makes my blues a liiitle loud.
also got my backspace on the left edge column too.
loving the keyboard tho, love that my shoulders can rest naturally
Seems like you should have purchased the Ergodox EZ. I love it. I have been thinking about getting the Moonlander but I do not like the thumb cluster. I like the thumb layout of the Ergodox EZ
It might be a silly question, but what is the difference exactly between the two?
That was a great review.
Can’t wait for the comparison between the three keyboards!
Thank you Florian!
as a developer this review was perfect for me
Fantastic! Glad it helped!
24:52 "you are getting the full cherry blue experience"
I'm rolling 🤣
I still revise my layout a couple times a week on average but I absolutely love this keyboard.
I swapped out the stock keys for Gateron Red Pro V2 switches but kept the keycaps because they've really grown on me.
Gaming on this has definitely been a learning curve. Just regular typing has been fantastic with only a few days of performance drop off. But competitive shooters that rely heavily on muscle memory were a bit of a challenge. Definitely felt like I was throwing the match for my team the first week of use. But after a few more cycles of remapping for specific games I'm roughly back to previous proficiency. So play some unranked games and you should be fine. I don't play MMOs but a friend of mine that does is drooling over the possibilities. Anyway, the big take away is that along with an adjustable height desk my RSI has healed and my fibro can be calm for an hour or three even after work. It's such a huge quality of life increase.
I've been telling everyone and their dog about this keyboard, 110% recommend.
Nice. It's amazing how much things are improved and things don't go wrong when we use the tools actually designed for humans!
Re: the indicator LEDs being out of sight: you can alleviate this by using layer specific lighting. I normally hate RGB stuff and keep it turned off, but since I'm using the Moonlander with the Platform the builtin LEDs are permanently out of my view. So I now have the three keys on the innermost part of the board light up the way the indicators would so I always know at a glance which layer is active without getting a full-on light show.
It would be even better if came with some programmable LCD keys.
The right single quote/windows key drove me nuts. That was the first thing I removed so it was single quote only.
Yeah, those "double purpose" keys, while really creative, did not jive with me either.
Thank you so much for this video!
I myself am currently struggling with pain in my hands and am looking for a better keyboard - this really helped me, i think i'll get this keyboard - thank you :)
Have some cookies for your efforts! 🍪🍪🍪🍪
If you're looking to relieve pain in your hands, my personal favorite is the Kinesis Advantage 2. I'd take a look at that one over this one for that situation
@@AllenUnderwood but the looking of Kinesis is so outlandish…
If you miss one key in the thumbs sections, the ergodox ez would be a best choice with more buttons in these sections. However, the ergodox ez can't bend like the moonlander which is something I would kill to try but sadly 600$CAD to try is out of reach for me if I want to retire before my seventies :D
9:55 It is not how the tool must be used. To pull off the keycap the other side has to be used. The side you are using is to pull off the switches.
I found changing the layout made this keyboard perfect for me. It was probably about 2 months before I was 100% happy it, but now I love it.
A friend of mine has bought one, and is going through the same problems right now. He uses my layout, but still isn't quite there. It is definitely a time sink of a keyboard!
No question there - it's a bit of a double edged sword. It can be frustrating getting to where it works right for you, but once you get there it is a nice typing experience.
Yes, the standard layout is so bad and incomplete... you even need two right pinky fingers for some keys. It's very confusing, cause most people I think would assume that the default layout was actually well put together. It's definitely not. With this keyboard, you HAVE to invent your own layout, or use that of another user. The latter they made super easy though, so that's pretty great.
Can you get it to lean/tilt similarly to the Microsoft sculpt keyboard?
I thought that all of the different websites didn't describe the keyboards very well.
Thirty six layers is fantastic! I ordered the blank keys because I will be using four languages: English, Spanish, Russian and classical Latin. I program with vim and I add that layout to Firefox with the Vimium C addon, I often use vi editing mode in the shell. I setup tmux to be vim compatible. I really like the hyper and meh keys because I use really complicated key sequences in Fvwm3.
I am waiting for it to arrive. I think that using the mounting holes in the center, it ought to be easy to make a plate with some arms to fix it in place at different angles. I had a construction company, so we fabricated sheet metal flashing and other brackets all the time.
Thanks for the best review on this keyboard I have seen.
OK, I really like the thumbcluster lifted. I need a support 1.5 inches high under it. Some velcro tape and I need to cut a block with a slight angle. With small hands, it just has to be up, not down.
let my finger linger -- lol
if you are going for the clicky you are definitely going to get it -- lol
fantastic review. super detailed. super crisps. thanks a lot!
Did... did you just say the arrow keys are good for vim? That's illegal.
* hjkl's away *
lol
And my hunt for a decent Ergo keyboard continues. I'm currently using a dygma raise, but having no F keys and basic functions is such a pain. Don't even get me started on Layers, I don't want to learn an invisible keyboard lay out.
I'm not going to lie - the layers is more than a little daunting for me. Until there's a keyboard with LCD keycaps that change for the layer you're on, I think it's a niche group of people trying to switch back and forth between DVORAK or some other layout they're trying to learn. Maybe 2-3 layers - but more than that would seem really hard for someone to memorize.
@@AllenUnderwood
Layer 1: Dvorak typing
Layer 2: Media controls
Layer 3: Macros
Layer 4: Qwerty gamepad mode
Reasoning: "If I can use vim, I'm already using an abstract layout." :P
I don't know.. I mean when you think about it, using any modifier keys is using an invisible keyboard layer. Usually keyboards print the shifted symbols and fn key alternatives, but still.. Copy/paste is using CTRL as a layer. You just have to think about what makes sense for you to be able to remember. Even if it is giving the arrow keys multiple functions like volume/skip, moving mouse via keys, etc that is still useful (the default layout puts those functions both on the same layer, but if you split it out, you could just use the arrow keys for both, etc).
Plus, the moonlander lets you customize the LED color per key per layer. So you can easily light them up certain ways to help you remember what is what on a particular layer.
I wonder the ZSAMoonlander keyboard ever got discounted. Anyone knows?
It doesn't
Awesome review, thanks!
Can you reupload this with Late Night DJ voice please.
That made me LOL
Which keyboard is the one you prefer and use most days?
Kinesis Advantage 2 - I want to try the 360 but I daily drive the other.
Thank you for this review!
Great work as usual, Allen!
Thank you Dan!
Yes! Been waiting for this.
Have this on order. There is a tenting bracket now that might be useful for some. I really want this for all my 3d software. I can make Layers for Zbrush, Blender, 3DCoat, etc etc and sub layers for Blender modelling, rigging, animation. Also coding I find the std layout very annoying for coding.
i recommend you get a 'Reflex Lab Large Extended Gaming Mouse Pad Mat XXL, Stitched Edges, Waterproof, Ultra Thick 5mm, Wide & Long Mousepad 36”x12”x.20"' for that slick surface your working on. if you can afford a moonlander you can surely afford a good mousepad, they're only about $25 on sale. or a rubber floor mat repurposed would work too.
Best part was watching him use the wrong end of his tool to remove the switch caps! If it works, it works!
I understand you would recommend the Kinesis Advantage 2 over the Moonlander for someone with tendon issues? I suffer from great inner side arms pain and I'm not sure which keyboard to pick, I have small hands and have been using a QWERTY layout since ever. Great video!
Don't get a moonlander for small hands, you'll have one comfortable thumb button at best. Speaking from experience.
To this day, I do believe the Kinesis Advantage is the most ergonomically comfortable / stress-relieving keyboard I've personally tried.
@@tp3293 Thanks, I heard of other keyboards like corne, lily58 and iris that apparently are better for people with small hands.
@@AllenUnderwood I heard it's pretty good too, but read a review saying it may be not so comfortable for people with small hands, so that's why I'm doubting now
@@xBeyondMystery I haven't used any of those but from pictures they look better choices. I saw your other comment and agree with the reviewer that said the kenisis advantage is not great for small hands either. I've got an Atreus and that feels great key placement wise but a split feels better for me so I can have it tented. I've actually adapted the moonlander to use a 34 key layout for now but it doesn't use any of the intended thumb keys, see i.imgur.com/uqfndgi.png The key placement still doesn't feel quite as nice as the Atreus though so there must be better options out there.
fenomenal
Good video. The retake was worth.
Thank you! :-)
You are using the switch puller side of the tool to pull the key cap.
Do you know, how is the key distance compared to the olkb preonic keyboard? I have a preonic and I want to move to a moolander. The key distance is OK for me on the preonic so I wonder, if the key distance is bigger also compared to the preonic of it is a thing only compared to other keybords.
have you used the kineses freestyle?
i presently use that keyboard, and its the best ive had so far. i need to buy a new keyboard for office, and this was a contender. i have nasty ulnar tunnel issues, the kinesis palm pads keep everything at bay in conjunction with the split and 90 deg elbows.
This guy reminds me of my goofy uncle that I'm never sure how much he's had to drink!
Switched from mx-browns to mx-reds and I absolutely love it. I may be a particular case given I touch-punch (touch-type & punch) my keys so the tactile *click* is me pressing the key down to the very bottom most times.
Its cool that you point out some daily problems like the headphone cabel! Very nice
Have you thought about making a comparable video for the Ergodox?
thank you for the awesome review! Tipping point for me to buy the keyboard :D
Will there be a Kinesis vs Moonlander comparison video? Pls!
How do you press all f keys? Cursor keys?
You should try the dygma raise or even the dygma defy ;-)
Lack of function keys is a major dealbreaker 😢
how is this software accessible? if I'm in linux, can I access it?
Best quote: "I let my finger linger."
To me, a keyboard must be concave. The sculptured keycaps emulate the concave keyboard but only to a small degree.
And it must support bluetooth. I want the same comfort with tablets, phones, etc. I cannot type on a toy bluetooth keyboard.
Or on a laptop or notebook keyboard. Or on any anti-ergonomic keyboard such as Microsoft class-action-waiting-to-happen Sculpt. So Kinesis Advantage360 Pro or Glove80 is the answer. Forget QMK, long live ZMK!
Too bad there's realistically only 2 keys per thumb on Kinesis for people with smaller hands. That's not enough for having space, backspace, delete, ctrl, alt and one layout modifier key for your thumbs to access.
Thank you for this super detailed review! The problem of cables jamming keys is something I experienced myself on another keyboard with low profile case.
Awesome Review - thx for your amazing work!
Consider splitting(heh) this up into two channels
I enjoyed the keyboard reviews you shared. I'm also wondering if you have tried Dygma keyboards?
Haven't looked into those...
which keyboard buttons do you recommend to have the most silent ones to buy with this key board together because i rechearched already on that main hompage but for me they sounds all the same. maybe i cant identify the different so thats why i would be really happy if you could let me know which one are the most quitest. thanks and thumps up, really good video.
Cherry mx silent red are the quietest
awesome review. thank you
The only problem i see with this keyboard is lack of angles adjustment
Even though it'd cost extra, I did see it has a screw mount under it like for cameras. That means you could use an octo mount (like the one the Keyboario M01 or M100 uses) instead of its leg system. Would make portability worse though.
Question can i use only the right side to game with ? how long of a connection cable can i get to move the left side off of desk ? any help i appreciate thanks
Only the left side works by itself. So no right hand game typing.
Mr Phenomenal!
Negative slope is just must have for me.
Even though it'd cost extra, I did see it has a screw mount under it like for cameras. That means you could use an octo mount (like the Keyboario M01 or M100 uses) instead of its leg system.
is moonlander better with mac or pc or is it the same
100% same experience.
Thanks for the extensive review. Great camera shots and mic.
I think you could shave off 10 minutes with a more focused flow of points to avoid repetition. It got kinda long to wrap up.
I'm also curious about reaching for far keys. Did you try adjusting the angle for hand size?
I was torn between this and the Dygma Raise. In the end, I went for the Raise. My neighbour has had the moonlander for about a year and she loves it. That keyboard is her baby.
How are you liking the Raise? I'm also struggling to decide as well lol, though I'm slightly partial to the moonlander so far
@@chroniccarelessness So, I was torn between the Raise and the Moonlander, and it came down to the nitty gritty details. I was lucky enough to know people who own them and let me give them a try. They are both great keyboards, but the tenting system on the moonlander is only stable as very specific angles, and the Raise just came with a better starter kit and carrying case. And it just felt better for me. The Raise has a point against it for still being a staggered layout, so if you have to have a columnar layout then moonlander may be better. That being said, Dygma is coming out with the Dygma Defy, which is columnar.
This is an excellent and really informative review!
I am thinking about giving it a try, however as a developer not having F keys really bugs me. Regarding the thumb clusters, how far away do you have to stretch your thumb to reach the thumb keys, in comparison to the kinesis advantage 2?
Because Wwen I was trying out the kinesis advantage 2 I immediatly felt pain when reaching for the space with my thumb
you may want to consider nyquist keyboard. seems to be everyone's fav
I don't know.. F key shortcuts has always been hard for me to do without looking and causes big stretches of the fingers. I think it might actually be an advantage if you can easily hold the layer and modifier keys at the same time with one hand and hit any F key with the letters on the other hand. Or remapping the common shortcuts away from the F keys. A lot of the intellij ones at least seem very random (besides F2 for rename).
Have you heard about the Keyboardio Model 100? It is an ergonomic, split keyboard with five thumb keys per side. It's also fully programmable, saves the layers and settings on the hardware. You can even swap out the key switches without soldering. It's genius. If everything goes well, it will be available in early 2022. I have pre-ordered mine. You should really check it out. Maybe it will solve some of the problems you have with the Moonlander.
It does look pretty nice and I'm considering it as well (the Kickstarter is done but is still on Indiegogo). The palm button is unique, as is the mouse "warping" feature in their firmware. The molded keycaps are good and bad: more ergo without being actual keywells, but you can't just stick any keycaps on.
The camera screw mount under it is neat. Seems to open up a lot of positioning possibilities (there's lots of random clamps and stuff out there for cameras). The thumb buttons seem nicely laid out. Actually, I just looked and didn't realize the Moonlander has one too. So you probably could use the same or similar base for the Moonlander as the Keyboardia. That'd probably help for that situation where you want to tent it but have the thumb up at the same time, or something that doesn't slide as much.
Looks like it is heavier than the Moonlander (2.3lbs vs 1.6lbs), though not sure if that is including their stands or not.
I think the price is pure robbery. I don't want to be a fool. Walking away from it and find alternatives.
There are tons of alternatives for about 100$.
@@qsomerty Willing to hear a link from you, one you recommend
It's expensive, that's true. But I haven't seen an alternative with similar advantages.
I don't know about this honestly. A lot of the cheaper options usually require doing your own 3d printing and/or soldering stuff yourself. Look around at how much hot swappable boards are, plus switches, plus keycaps, plus key-specific LEDs, etc. This thing is a similar cost to the Kinesis Advantage 2 (the 360 will cost more), the Keyboardio M100, etc.
If you don't need as many keys, don't need lights, don't need built-in tenting, etc. you can get a pre-built keyboard for cheaper. The Keyboardio Atreus might be a good option at $150.
I compare this to phone prices, life time expectancy of this keyboard is easily 10+ years, and i use it for work. I dispose phone about every 3 years. Its worth it if you feel pain while typing, and willing to master using it. I bought it, and switched to dvorak, pain is gone, quality of life increaded, it was worth the investment in my eyes. If you are fine using standard qwerty keyboard maybe its not for you (and thats fine), its a speciality item tailored for people that really need the ergonomic part - and that part is worth the money you need to pay for it
Vim _isn't_ everything, but I've yet to find an IDE or "super-editor" worth using that doesn't have a good vim emulator plugin. Heck, VS Code can run a full-fledged NeoVim editor inside it, combining the best of both! I've also spent most of the last 2 decades writing all my C++ and Python in Vim, because Linux was basically my IDE -- and "intellisense" tools for C++ sucked until recently, anyway. Though all that said, I still have plenty of other uses for arrow keys and the Delete key, which is why I haven't given them up.
Also, Neovim is getting pretty close to becoming a fully customizable IDE in a way Vim has never quite managed. See the LunarVim IDE defaults.
This man is clearly not a keyboard guy.
Sorry but I have to say that it made me cringe when you used the switch puller to take off a key cap. Great way to scratch the hell out of a perfectly good key cap. The wire side of the tool is designed to safely remove key caps without scratching them. Just saying.
Yeah...lesson learned :-)
Picked up this keyboard last year and I did some work on it, to learn how well I could use it. Turned out I was way faster and better with a regular keyboard, some regular exercises, and some strength training and stretches. Regular mechanical keyboards are just fine for most people. What's required is a change in the lifestyle of the users, so that they don't hurt themselves through excessive uncomfortable use of keyboards owing to bad positions and repetitive strain. Gimmicky keyboards like the Moonlander are a) not for everyone due to the significant learning curve, b) not guaranteed to solve repetitive strain or carpal tunnel problems
While I agree with you that lifestyle changes are the most important factors when it comes to pain, there is a ton of science that shows things like splitting the keyboard to prevent ulnar deviation, and tenting the keyboard as well as other positioning reduces pressure on joints and tendons when having to type for long periods of time. These positioning elements are universal and objectively better than a standard keyboard. Does it have to be a moonlander? No. However people should definitely get a split keyboard with a slight tenting angle if they are going to be typing for 8+ hours per day.
I see replies here about pronation, split keyboard layout and so on - perhaps that is important, but the more important thing is holistic health where you don't have to use a computer and keyboard all the time
One of these days I will end up swapping the left thumb cluster for a thumb joystick.