All the great information without the fluff. No annoying intro, no self-promotion, just good information explained in a way anyone could understand it. Thank you I know this video is 5 years old and it's the first of yours I found. But I'm going to look and see what else you've produced because I have not been able to find any good educational videos online for the last 2 years.
Amy, what is really great about your channel, is how you present the information. Simple and right to the point. No sifting through unnecessary information. Moreover, all your videos are this way. This type of channel will help us DIY PEOPLE be successful! Keep up the great job.
After many reasearch, this was the most practical and informative video I have watched about shading effects on both sistems, congratulations good job...
If you research is TH-cam !!! Then you are a IDIOT Lern electronic!!! Look Up BY PASS DIODE !!!! IN THIS VIDEO THEY DELIBERET CHOSE NOT TO USE PANELS WITH BY PASS DIODS .. BECAUS THE PROBLEM WOULD NOT BE THIS DEWESTATING !!! WITH BY PASS DIODES !!!! SO MORAL IS ... D O N T.. BUY ... CHEAP .. PV PANELS .. WITH OUT BY PASS DIODES
Kenneth Schultz that’s true. I have 2 12v panels with 2 bypass diode in series. But I think I will try it in parallel to test it when I got a 12v inverter.
@@kennethschultz6465 Nice piece of advice, but I was just wondering that this nice piece of advice would have earned way more respect if you had just avoided the foul language you used in the beginning. By the way, I just took a risk of being bombarded with more indecent words, but let's hope for the best.
WONDERFUL Teacher Amy! It's one thing to talk solar, it's all together meaningful when you combine that with practical applications! Thank you for your invaluable insight! Blessings 👍😇
WOW !!! WOW !!! WOW !!! Amy you go girl !!! that is fantastic information who would have thought?! really good info! now we know what's happening with the shading?! great ! Really good video thanks for posting
Since it's been awhile since anyone added a new comment, and since I'm learning a lot now about residential solar energy, I can update people on this topic. Enphase microinverters and SolarEdge inverter with optimizers essentially provide parallel wiring of your panels, which is what Amy is showing the advantages of. Pretty much all residential systems use microinverters or optimizers these days, and therefore use parallel panel wiring. Shading is indeed a problem for my house. But of the panels that are out there, I found one that takes this goal of localized partitioning for minimizing shade induced production loss a step further. Solaria (based in Fremont, CA) wires their cells into 4 quadrants on their panels, essentially turning their panel into 4 mini-panels. Within each quadrant the cells are, as normal, wired in series. But the quadrant's outputs are run in parallel. This means that when a tree branch casts a shadow across the corner of a panel only that corner quadrant drops down in output, while the other 3 quadrants maintain the full output. So, summarizing: in the old days panels were wired in series. When shade was cast on part of one panel all panel's outputs dropped down to the lowest performing shade-effected panel. Today, with panels wired in parallel, when shade is cast on part of one panel, typically that whole panel, but only that one panel, drops down in power output. But with the Solaria panels, when shade is cast on part of one panel, that panel drops down only on the quadrant(s) affected so that the affected panel has minimized the affect from the shading. I haven't heard of any other panel manufacturer doing this, but maybe they're out there. Maybe someday they'll engineer panels so that all cells will be wired in parallel for optimal (minimal) shade effect. No, I don't work for Solaria. But since I have shade problems this is the panel I'm selecting, after a lot of panel shopping, for my new rooftop residential system.
Answered my query exactly, thank you. On my setup, each panel is wired in parallel, with its own wire going to the controller. I was considering changing it to the series wiring to cut down on wiring but I can see now that this would reduce performance significantly if shade touched one of the panels.
Good work on your videos, very informative, and easy to understand. Makes me want to sell my camper so I can buy another and build another solar system!
Thanks for the video. I love your store also btw, I shop there. I think for most people instead of using panels that are split in half and paralled (32x2 on 1 panel) it would make more sense for people to perform the same test with full panels and pretend they are just one big panel (which some are, the non split ones). So for example you should use 4x panels, wire 4x in series, do the shading test, connect 4x parallel do the test, then use 8 panels to do a series parallel connection and do the test. I believe most of use DIYers have been told that the best way to deal with shading with lots of panels is to do x number of panels in series and then the same amount in series and parallel those two connections to minimize your loss. That can be done with combiner cables (fused) or a combiner box for even more strings. Wouldn't that be the best scenario for ensuring you are getting the most power? Series/parallel same number of panels in each string (same type of panels too)? This is what I've been told in many forums and reading other posts, also for say East / West / South facing panels. I'm doing a DIY off-grid setup in my back yard and throughout the day different parts suffer from bigtime shading. So the plan is to initially put 6 panels in an area least impacted by the shading all day, 3x series and another 3x in series to a combiner box (making them parallel 3s2p), then with the remaining 6 panels I have (total of 12) I was planning on placing 3 in series in a spot that gets good light for a good portion of the morning, and the other 3 in an area that gets afternoon sun for a total of 3s4p to my combiner box. Minimizing the shading loss. This may not yield the highest "peak" output but it should give me more of a flatter power curve through out the day giving me more power overall. Or is that not the right approach? I have an MPPT that can handle the amperage and voltage. Would love to hear your thoughts. Cheers and thanks again. I'm actually heading over to your website to see if there are any goodies I need that I can purchase! Im just about ready to bring the first 6 panels online. Wood frame is mostly complete! I charge 48V batteries, I have several of them, I don't connect anything to the grid, and I dont have say a proper larged sized ESS. The 48V packs are usually around 4-5kWh and I connect them to various items around the house with a proper inverter and fusing and all that fun stuff. Once I finish my last battery pack (16s2p at 48V) and build a custom enclosure for it I am going to focus on then buying batteries with more capacity so I can build a powerfull ESS. Something that will hold 2-3 days worth of power. But I am super looking forward to being able to pump more amps faster into my current packs. Right now a wimpy 4x100 watt PV system is charging them at a peak of maybe 6 amps. Seeing that number jump dramatically and the reduced charge time is going to be glorious! The batteries are rated for over 100A continious so no worries there. My SCC will only spit out 60A at 250v Max input. Still its going to put my first attempt at solar to shame!
Thanks for this. Seemed the logical way and now I know for sure without having to do the test myself. And yes, more controllers equal added efficiency. But, if you need to save money and don't have shading issues one may not even need the added expense of a MPPT over a PWM controller. Unless of course your system needs to run at maximum capacity.
You are right. I needed to use an MPPT charge controller for the demonstration because I was wiring in series, and needed to drop the 24V down to 12V. But as we showed, since wiring in parallel was the better method, this can be done with a PWM or MPPT.
The only thing you really need, is some kind of regulator, to protect the batteries from over charging. As cheap as panels are now days, it's not ultra critical, that you glean every possible watt. It might be cheaper, to just add a couple of panels, to get the current you need.
I'm installing solar panels on my RV and you helped me determine that: I will install a greater number of smaller panels in Parallel, as opposed to a fewer amount of larger panels in Series. And how to maximize panel orientation if possible...Thanks!
I'd like to comment in here with something. First off, I love your videos. I came back to this one video specifically, but have watched many others experiment with the same thing. The reason I want to clarify something here, is because we actually have what equates to four power sources, or four solar panels. You began explaining that each of YOUR panels has twice as many cells as standard, and that's because you have the panel broken into two sets of smaller cells. By doing this you have altered the shading experiment, which can be observed in your first reading. The current dropped nearly in half, with voltage being consistent. This is because your one panel that's hooked up is actually two separate power sources that are wired in parallel. One has some shading, but the other is still completely exposed to sunlight and is producing its original voltage. This is different than what other panels will do, because per your original statement, most panels are made with a single string of solar cells, meaning there is not a second power source made into the panel and therefor your results are specific to your product (or another product that is made the same way).
Perfect timing. I just grabbed two 36 cell panels from the office the other day and was going to do a new video soon showing shading with them. But the result will still be the same, wiring them in parallel will be better.
Great demo. I didn't realize there was a difference between partial shading when panels were wired in parallel versus wired in series. Your demo really makes this clear and understandable.
Onley when you use cheap skate PV .. Real PV has BY PASS DIODES .. SO SHADING GET BYPASSED AND SERIEL WINS !! But well i am from Denmark and we know this hmm 30 yers now By PASS DIODE's ain't a new thing .. on deasent PV panels But there is No need or use fore Them in these small setup.. But when you got 48 panels like i do .. you know a misleading story This don't appley to big deasent PV ..
It appears that the most efficient system will be wired with panels in parallel pairs, then in series (I guess you said that). I'm busy watching all your videos because despite the sales pitch for your products, you're sharing facts that will help us all to do solar the best way.
Hmm look Up BY PASS DIODE's ..and see why this shade shait and seriell is bad Why IT is aculey not?. Unless you ofcorse think that All cheap must be best And solar PV are fuking Solar PV What can go wrong Then eat this shait i fore one know the word's and the MEANING ogBY PASS DIODE'S
Here is an Idea I had... Why don't solar panel manufacturers have some type of internal switching device so that if a particular cell is low on output (indicating it is likely shaded), that it just acts as a passthru, supplying 0 volts for that cell, but very little resistance to the rest of the panel. For example, if the entire panel lit up well is 18.0V, then you cover just 1 of the cells, that cell would switch to "passthru" mode and the entire panel would then be 17.5V but with the same current as with 18V. Thus you may only see about a 3% loss in total power, rather than about 30% or so that you were seeing. It might be more expensive to make them this way but that sure would be slick. That way, if up to 25% of the panel is shaded, it can still make enough voltage to charge a 12V battery bank (25% down from 18V leaves 13.5V). This would probably solve the series partially shaded issue.
Your idea is absolutely correct. To achieve this goal, manufacturers of solar panels used to install plenty of the so called "bypass" diodes. It was that time, in the past, where quality was the first characteristic of any product....So each panel had very effective protection against shading (: the more bypass diodes within the panel, the less power loss of the panel due to shading). Nowadays, cheapness is governing the market. Therefore...two bypass diodes in the best case, or none at all for the most of them...Competition makes this situation worst than ever before as regards quality. I wonder if there are panels out there using, say, six or eight bypass diodes any longer...And I finally don't think that there are...These things were happening at the time when the individual cells were circular in shape. So there was plenty of space available for installing these diodes. The rectangular shape of the modern cells makes things difficult for placing bypass diodes in the panels, but still the main factor for their disappearance is the cost they add. Quality does not matter any longer...
Hello hello Amy and AltE...I really apreciate your "Hands On" series on top of your theoretical series...! Learning a lot. I have an old Japanese saying I use: "Function over Form". I believe you know this, but, just to be sure: In the beginning of this video, you mention the individual solar cells of 0,5V being connected in series, to obtain 18V. Pointing out the series along the top and showing it again in the diagram, is not a correct electrical "Series": The cells have a negative pad on the top and a positive pad on the bottom side. They are wired in series: From one Top(neg) to the next Bottom(plus), to ad up the voltages. PS: I know this video is: How to Wire Panels and I am murking around down in the machine room. Anyway...Spring Greetings to all from Denmark...Jakob
Nice presentation but you mentioned a few things and didn't elaborate on them. One is that for those 2 panels, you recommend using separate charge controllers to get maximum power. Regarding that, I have 2 main questions: 1) Assuming both charge controllers are for 12V battery bank, is it ok to connect them both to the same battery bank at the same time without causing any issues? 2) Is it better than #1 if you have a 24V series connected battery bank and instead connect one 12V controller to one 12V "leg" and the other 12V controller to the other "leg"?
I was worried about overloading my mppt solar controller but after watching this I got an idea of how to fix that problem, Just put a sheet of cardboard over part of one of the panels to reduce the watt flow.
very good show as always, i learn every time i watch and i save these to watch over and over. i like the fan on the left that it moves pans and tilts, would you say where or a link to a place that sells them, have not seen them up here, eh
Thanks George. I bought the fan a while back online. I think it is Peak PKC0JH. You should be able to Google it for your area. I've beat it up pretty bad over the years with demos (including running it directly off a 32Vmp solar panel), it still hangs in there.
I think there is something wrong with your charge controller. With an AGM solar battery you should be charging at above 14.4V. I have a CTek D250SA and that outputs 14.65V typically to the AGM battery. 12.65V is less than float charge.
for compact installations it might be great the parallel setup, but this methode requires bigger wiring, low voltage high current is more difficult to transport (more loss) than higher voltage systems (series) in some situations it could be good to mix series and parallel
Very nice presentation. Did You notice that WATS on input like on out-up get this same? Yes, converter also is consuming some WATS, thats why there is difference in 5-8 WATS. But nice in that presentation is that voltage is changed when amps stays this same, and You get this same watts like with higher voltage and lower amps. On Your presentation that was difficult to see, because of outside sun and clouds and Your body, but in ideal room with this same light, You will get watts at this same level. But voltage will differ and amps also. PS, I have question, did You not over power Your converter? Because I see that panels in series get higher voltage but Watts stop at 50 watts.
today i learned accidently that covering the bottom 4 inches of a panel completly took almost all its amperage output away for the entire panel. they are flexible mono panels that seem to only have a 3 x 6 cell config for a total of 18 cells.
I hope you wouldn't mind helping me out a little bit and checking my math for me. I've been trying to find someone with an accurate answer.... I recently purchased 4 lightly used 270 watt, 35.5 volt pmax, 7.60amp pmax / 15amp fuse rating solar panels. So, if I connect them up in series I would get 1080watts with 142 volts at 7.6 amps. Correct? I also purchased a DC pool pump rated at 72vdc that comes with a 72v Controller Box. The Controller parameters are as follows: Rated current=12A, max solar input volts=150, current overload=15A, pump=1000W @ 72v, best working volts=88v. Would you agree that my 4 panels in series is best and most efficient? Or do you recommend another configuration???
It's my understanding that amorphous solar cells work better in shading and diffuse light like cloudy days for the same nominal wattage. Yes I'm aware they're generally less efficient and hence have to be larger in size, but as long as I have room for a 1000 or 2000 Watts, wouldn't it be better if used cells that had better performance in the clouds and dim light assuming the cost isnt exceptionally greater?
This breaks my heart. I have a tiny cabin in the woods. I DO NOT want to cut down trees. All I want to run is a small 12v fan, maybe one 12v LED light, a 12v cellphone charger, and maybe a tiny portable wireless router. I was thinking 1 deep cycle battery and 100 watt panel should be overkill to keep it charged. However a largeamount of the panel would be covered. I always thought if 50% of the panel was covered, I would lose 50% of the power. clearly its not like that. It's much worse. Is there such a thing as a panel designed to be in tree shade, or would I be smart to take a bunch of the smallest 12v cells I could find, spread them out over the roof, and parallel them together? That way maybe 2 or 3 of the cells might have direct sun all the time. I do wish you showed what happens if you cover a large part of a panel. Like half. Is it something that it doesn't matter much if you cover 1 cell or half the cells you lose about the same, or is it like if you cover 1 cell you lose 50% and if you cover half the panel you lose basically 100%
Thank you for this. If I have 2 strings of 4 panels, 1 set faces east, and the other west. If I wire them in parallel, will the loss be minimal as well? So 4S (east) & 4S (west) combined to give me a 4S2P setup into a single MPPT controller. Hope that makes sense.
Maybe you can tell me why I get 10A or less from 10- 100W panels in parallel in full sun. Each panel output is about 21V, but when paralleled, I get 16V. I have this 10A or less going into a 1300W GTI. I barely get 2A out of the GTI.
brillant. so I have 1x200w 12v panel facing East, and a 40amp MPPT controller. was thinking of a adding a WEST facing 200W panel. So using your shading example and using only the one MPPT, seems going parallel is the way to go, to get that bit extra out of them. thank you.
Sounds like a good plan. Since current is more affected in that case than voltage, planning for different amps is the way to go. Parallel would be best.
i got 24 250watt set Up East 45°in this way 4 panels in series 3 times 140v @ 27A on one EPever 60A@48v 4 panels in series 3 times 140v @ 27A on one EPever 60A@48v West 45° 4 panels in series 3 times 140v @ 27A on one EPever 60A@48v 4 panels in series 3 times 140v @ 27A on one EPever 60A@48v I use RECOM 250+5WATT GOLD PANELS with BY PASS DIODES So this shearing nonsens is just What IT is .. Every seriel set have IT's own 10mm² whole down to the MPPT SO THE 27A don't get lost in oh say """ 4mm²"" is way good enough Yes if you like loss and PWM IT SERTENLEY IS BUT!!! I don't build shait .. with loss as a factor .. Remember!! If IT is just .. good enough .. IT is Half BAD!!!
But if I increase my amps I will need much larger wires. Especially over a 16 panel system. My problem is half my panels will be on the west slope roof and half on south. Half will be shaded all the time as the sun travels. I am very northern in Alberta
I have 3 x 40v panels in parallel connected to a 24v system and today its a bit cloudy and the panels make less than 24v only 6v aswell. so of course it cant charge , but why? shouldnt only the amps drop with shade, why the voltage? if i connect them in series i am not sure if i solve the problem because if 1 makes only 5-8v i am still not reaching more than 24, so whats the problem? always when i measure the output voltage directly from the panels, its always about 37v with strong sun and when its cloudy aswell, but as soon as i attach them to the mppt the voltage drops to 6v or less
a question. , in my 8 panels setup one panel face the shade , all are connected in series, obviously they have built-in bypass diodes, may I know what would be your expert advice, should I install another bypass diode on that PANEL although it has built-in internal diodes present? or the blocking diode with that panel would be good? plz advice.
the 10% loss of the pwm controller is quite substantial until the voltage drops so low that charging cannot happen.. it is the change in Power which is important .. so the amperage or wattage is the thing to watch !
I have 3 x 330 watts of solar on the roof of the RV and I was going to go with 4 x 330... but space and time did not let me. I was going to go with 2 x 2 in series and then those in parallel... ended up just going with the 3 in series with ONE big MPPT CC. I hope I'm NOT in the shade needing more solar...
Hi Amy. Firstly thanks a lot for your interesting videos. I have a question for you! What if I have one of the solar panels placed outside that is affected by the shadow of a neighboring wall. Can I place and use a common mirror to redirect the solar light to the panel? Can you show us how (in)effective this would be? thanks a lot. :)
If Schottky barrier diodes could be paralleled with each cell, it would make it so shadowing one cell would only lose the voltage of 1-1/2 cells, rather than an entire string of cells within a panel. It would make more sense, to just put all the cells in series, and series all the panels in the array, so that all you lose, is just a few volts if the corner of one panel gets shaded. The amperage will never change. That would make an array much more effective, if there are branches, blades of a turbine, or features of the roof casting shadows on portions of an array. All the panels I own, have 3 diodes. If I block one cell, I lose 1/3 of the panel. If the shadow creeps up on the end of one of the panels, I lose the entire panel! The worst case scenario, is a partially shaded cell, where the voltage of the fully exposed cells reverse polarizes a cell, that's putting out less current. That creates severe spot heating of the partially shaded cell, which can permanently damage it, reducing the current capability of the entire panel. Shottky diodes on each cell will guarantee that could never happen. The more cells on each string between diodes, the more damaging partial shading of single cells becomes.
@@AltEStore In a panel, the photovoltaic cells are in a series. I'm planning on placing the diodes in parallel with each cell. The diodes do absolutely nothing, unless a cell(or cells) is shaded. They're just there, to minimize the reverse voltage drop, if a single, or a small group of cells is shaded. When paralleled, the cathode of each diode will be connected to the anode(+) of each cell, the anode of each diode will be connected to the cathode(-) of the same cell. A strange, and in some ways useful, characteristic of a single photovoltaic cell, is that they produce current proportionate to the amount of light hitting it. That current remains constant, weather the cell is being reverse biased, shorted, or even allowed to produce power. If one cell is partially shaded, the whole panel can only pass the same current, as that cell. The cell will go into reverse bias, which absorbs the voltage produced by other cells in the series, curtailing the current potential of the fully illuminated cells. If a reverse bypass diode is in parallel, the cell only experiences
(Continuing the first reply) 1/2 volt of reverse bias, instead of the voltage of all the cells in series with it, making it completely safe for that cell, and allows, the fully illuminated cells to pass their full current. At that point, it would be most efficient, to have all panels in a series. I just haven't found panels, with that feature.
Wondering if mounting a diffuser lens above or white reflector beside the panel would be useful by spreading the light out and overcoming shade problem. Or heck amorphous silicon cells have much less problem w shading so just use them (or maybe instead as a translucent diffusing layer over each mono-/poly-si cell with each pair being in parallel to reduce resistance during shade events).
Given the performance of fully vs. partially shaded cells, would it be better to rotate these panels 90° so that as a shadow moves right-to-left across a panel, when that first inch is shaded, it partially shades 16 cells, rather than fully shading 4? 🤓🤔🤷♂️
I wish you would have used regular 36 cell panels. These 72 cell panels have the other half of the panel in parallel and makes the power drop less dramatic. It was still a great demo though.
Sorry, I didn't have two identical 36 cell panels readily available at the time. But as I said to someone else, the demo was still valid, as wiring them in series did still create a bottleneck, and wiring in parallel showed improved output.
That's a cool idea. Let me see what I can pull together. I might be able to compare shading 12V 140W panels, one with 36 cells and one with 72 cells. I'll give you my prediction, the 72 cell will perform better, but let's see it work. It's on the list (I may need a few weeks, I've got a lot going on, be patient).
Better to buy panels with more by-pass diodes. Canadian Solar uses half-cut cells and has more columns. They put a by-pass diode on each column. Allegedly, Sunpower has a by-pass diode across each cell.
Be aware that there is voltage drop across diodes. Just a little bit per diode, but it can start adding up when you use more diodes. You have to find the sweet spot between shade protection and lower voltage from too many diodes.
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All the great information without the fluff. No annoying intro, no self-promotion, just good information explained in a way anyone could understand it. Thank you I know this video is 5 years old and it's the first of yours I found. But I'm going to look and see what else you've produced because I have not been able to find any good educational videos online for the last 2 years.
Definitely check out our Resources page too! www.altestore.com/diy-solar-resources/
Amy, what is really great about your channel, is how you present the information. Simple and right to the point. No sifting through unnecessary information. Moreover, all your videos are this way. This type of channel will help us DIY PEOPLE be successful! Keep up the great job.
It’s sort of unbelievable that out of all the different videos about this subject, they fail to demonstrate this. Great video.
Good description but I wonder why a bypass diode was never mentioned as part of this video. They are pretty important when wiring in series.
This is best channel for anyone interested in solar. Information presented in a simple manner. Great channel
After many reasearch, this was the most practical and informative video I have watched about shading effects on both sistems, congratulations good job...
If you research is TH-cam !!! Then you are a IDIOT
Lern electronic!!! Look Up
BY PASS DIODE !!!!
IN THIS VIDEO THEY DELIBERET CHOSE NOT TO USE PANELS WITH
BY PASS DIODS .. BECAUS THE PROBLEM WOULD NOT BE THIS DEWESTATING !!!
WITH BY PASS DIODES !!!!
SO MORAL IS ... D O N T.. BUY ... CHEAP .. PV PANELS ..
WITH OUT BY PASS DIODES
Kenneth Schultz that’s true. I have 2 12v panels with 2 bypass diode in series. But I think I will try it in parallel to test it when I got a 12v inverter.
@@kennethschultz6465 Nice piece of advice, but I was just wondering that this nice piece of advice would have earned way more respect if you had just avoided the foul language you used in the beginning. By the way, I just took a risk of being bombarded with more indecent words, but let's hope for the best.
I agree
@@respecttime4197 Exactly
This information is actually difficult to find on the internet. Thanks so much for putting this together. Well done...
I have watched so many of your videos and I have to say you are a world class teacher. Keep it very simple and to the point
WONDERFUL Teacher Amy! It's one thing to talk solar, it's all together meaningful when you combine that with practical applications! Thank you for your invaluable insight! Blessings 👍😇
I was looking forward to this episode - and it did not disappoint! All the combinations, expertly demonstrated and explained. Perfect! Thank you Amy!
This video is excellently what I was looking for. Straight to the point. 😊
WOW !!!
WOW !!!
WOW !!!
Amy you go girl !!!
that is fantastic information who would have thought?!
really good info!
now we know what's happening with the shading?!
great !
Really good video thanks for posting
Excellent videos Amy! You're like a "MythBuster" for the solar community... Keep up the good work!
Just sad .. when u lern the word's
BY PASS DIODES Then you realy
Know you got played .. zuker
@@kennethschultz6465 Illiterate much?
Since it's been awhile since anyone added a new comment, and since I'm learning a lot now about residential solar energy, I can update people on this topic. Enphase microinverters and SolarEdge inverter with optimizers essentially provide parallel wiring of your panels, which is what Amy is showing the advantages of. Pretty much all residential systems use microinverters or optimizers these days, and therefore use parallel panel wiring. Shading is indeed a problem for my house. But of the panels that are out there, I found one that takes this goal of localized partitioning for minimizing shade induced production loss a step further. Solaria (based in Fremont, CA) wires their cells into 4 quadrants on their panels, essentially turning their panel into 4 mini-panels. Within each quadrant the cells are, as normal, wired in series. But the quadrant's outputs are run in parallel. This means that when a tree branch casts a shadow across the corner of a panel only that corner quadrant drops down in output, while the other 3 quadrants maintain the full output. So, summarizing: in the old days panels were wired in series. When shade was cast on part of one panel all panel's outputs dropped down to the lowest performing shade-effected panel. Today, with panels wired in parallel, when shade is cast on part of one panel, typically that whole panel, but only that one panel, drops down in power output. But with the Solaria panels, when shade is cast on part of one panel, that panel drops down only on the quadrant(s) affected so that the affected panel has minimized the affect from the shading. I haven't heard of any other panel manufacturer doing this, but maybe they're out there. Maybe someday they'll engineer panels so that all cells will be wired in parallel for optimal (minimal) shade effect. No, I don't work for Solaria. But since I have shade problems this is the panel I'm selecting, after a lot of panel shopping, for my new rooftop residential system.
Answered my query exactly, thank you.
On my setup, each panel is wired in parallel, with its own wire going to the controller. I was considering changing it to the series wiring to cut down on wiring but I can see now that this would reduce performance significantly if shade touched one of the panels.
Amy you are good at what you do. Very well explained. Always!
Good work on your videos, very informative, and easy to understand. Makes me want to sell my camper so I can buy another and build another solar system!
I warn people that solar is addicting. Just one more thing...
Thanks for the video. I love your store also btw, I shop there. I think for most people instead of using panels that are split in half and paralled (32x2 on 1 panel) it would make more sense for people to perform the same test with full panels and pretend they are just one big panel (which some are, the non split ones). So for example you should use 4x panels, wire 4x in series, do the shading test, connect 4x parallel do the test, then use 8 panels to do a series parallel connection and do the test. I believe most of use DIYers have been told that the best way to deal with shading with lots of panels is to do x number of panels in series and then the same amount in series and parallel those two connections to minimize your loss. That can be done with combiner cables (fused) or a combiner box for even more strings.
Wouldn't that be the best scenario for ensuring you are getting the most power? Series/parallel same number of panels in each string (same type of panels too)?
This is what I've been told in many forums and reading other posts, also for say East / West / South facing panels. I'm doing a DIY off-grid setup in my back yard and throughout the day different parts suffer from bigtime shading. So the plan is to initially put 6 panels in an area least impacted by the shading all day, 3x series and another 3x in series to a combiner box (making them parallel 3s2p), then with the remaining 6 panels I have (total of 12) I was planning on placing 3 in series in a spot that gets good light for a good portion of the morning, and the other 3 in an area that gets afternoon sun for a total of 3s4p to my combiner box. Minimizing the shading loss. This may not yield the highest "peak" output but it should give me more of a flatter power curve through out the day giving me more power overall. Or is that not the right approach? I have an MPPT that can handle the amperage and voltage. Would love to hear your thoughts. Cheers and thanks again. I'm actually heading over to your website to see if there are any goodies I need that I can purchase! Im just about ready to bring the first 6 panels online. Wood frame is mostly complete!
I charge 48V batteries, I have several of them, I don't connect anything to the grid, and I dont have say a proper larged sized ESS. The 48V packs are usually around 4-5kWh and I connect them to various items around the house with a proper inverter and fusing and all that fun stuff. Once I finish my last battery pack (16s2p at 48V) and build a custom enclosure for it I am going to focus on then buying batteries with more capacity so I can build a powerfull ESS. Something that will hold 2-3 days worth of power. But I am super looking forward to being able to pump more amps faster into my current packs. Right now a wimpy 4x100 watt PV system is charging them at a peak of maybe 6 amps. Seeing that number jump dramatically and the reduced charge time is going to be glorious! The batteries are rated for over 100A continious so no worries there. My SCC will only spit out 60A at 250v Max input. Still its going to put my first attempt at solar to shame!
wow one of the best explanation for solar panels in youtube. thanks a lot
Super informative demo, Ms. Beaudet. Very comprehensive! Thank you.
Very nice demo of what I was otherwise just reading about. Really helps to see it. Thank you.
Great video. Best explanation and demonstration I've seen yet. Thank you for the information.
I love watching your demos. They certainly make sense. I hope I can retain the info when I start building my own system. Cheers!
Good tutorial on the effects of various degrees of shade on panels. Thumb up.
Very well thought out and presented clearly. Easy to understand.Thank you Amy!
Finally, the test I wanted to see.
Answered exactly my question with a practical appraoach
this is the perfect way to set this demo up. Thank you!!
Thanks for this. Seemed the logical way and now I know for sure without having to do the test myself.
And yes, more controllers equal added efficiency. But, if you need to save money and don't have shading issues
one may not even need the added expense of a MPPT over a PWM controller. Unless of course your system needs to run at maximum capacity.
You are right. I needed to use an MPPT charge controller for the demonstration because I was wiring in series, and needed to drop the 24V down to 12V. But as we showed, since wiring in parallel was the better method, this can be done with a PWM or MPPT.
The only thing you really need, is some kind of regulator, to protect the batteries from over charging. As cheap as panels are now days, it's not ultra critical, that you glean every possible watt. It might be cheaper, to just add a couple of panels, to get the current you need.
I'm installing solar panels on my RV and you helped me determine that: I will install a greater number of smaller panels in Parallel, as opposed to a fewer amount of larger panels in Series. And how to maximize panel orientation if possible...Thanks!
I'd like to comment in here with something. First off, I love your videos. I came back to this one video specifically, but have watched many others experiment with the same thing.
The reason I want to clarify something here, is because we actually have what equates to four power sources, or four solar panels. You began explaining that each of YOUR panels has twice as many cells as standard, and that's because you have the panel broken into two sets of smaller cells. By doing this you have altered the shading experiment, which can be observed in your first reading. The current dropped nearly in half, with voltage being consistent. This is because your one panel that's hooked up is actually two separate power sources that are wired in parallel. One has some shading, but the other is still completely exposed to sunlight and is producing its original voltage. This is different than what other panels will do, because per your original statement, most panels are made with a single string of solar cells, meaning there is not a second power source made into the panel and therefor your results are specific to your product (or another product that is made the same way).
Perfect timing. I just grabbed two 36 cell panels from the office the other day and was going to do a new video soon showing shading with them. But the result will still be the same, wiring them in parallel will be better.
@@AltEStore provided you are always getting above 12v from the sun.
Excellent presentation. Thank you!
Great demo. I didn't realize there was a difference between partial shading when panels were wired in parallel versus wired in series. Your demo really makes this clear and understandable.
Onley when you use cheap skate PV ..
Real PV has BY PASS DIODES ..
SO SHADING GET BYPASSED AND SERIEL WINS !!
But well i am from Denmark and we know this hmm 30 yers now
By PASS DIODE's ain't a new thing .. on deasent PV panels
But there is No need or use fore Them in these small setup..
But when you got 48 panels like i do .. you know a misleading story
This don't appley to big deasent PV ..
Again thank you very interesting numbers...staying in parallel
You just answered my query from the last vid I watched :) thanks again
It appears that the most efficient system will be wired with panels in parallel pairs, then in series (I guess you said that). I'm busy watching all your videos because despite the sales pitch for your products, you're sharing facts that will help us all to do solar the best way.
That's the plan, man.
Hmm look Up
BY PASS DIODE's ..and see why this shade shait and seriell is bad
Why IT is aculey not?.
Unless you ofcorse think that All cheap must be best
And solar PV are fuking Solar PV What can go wrong
Then eat this shait i fore one know the word's and the MEANING ogBY PASS DIODE'S
Great information, exactly what I was looking for
Here is an Idea I had... Why don't solar panel manufacturers have some type of internal switching device so that if a particular cell is low on output (indicating it is likely shaded), that it just acts as a passthru, supplying 0 volts for that cell, but very little resistance to the rest of the panel. For example, if the entire panel lit up well is 18.0V, then you cover just 1 of the cells, that cell would switch to "passthru" mode and the entire panel would then be 17.5V but with the same current as with 18V. Thus you may only see about a 3% loss in total power, rather than about 30% or so that you were seeing. It might be more expensive to make them this way but that sure would be slick. That way, if up to 25% of the panel is shaded, it can still make enough voltage to charge a 12V battery bank (25% down from 18V leaves 13.5V). This would probably solve the series partially shaded issue.
Your idea is absolutely correct. To achieve this goal, manufacturers of solar panels used to install plenty of the so called "bypass" diodes. It was that time, in the past, where quality was the first characteristic of any product....So each panel had very effective protection against shading (: the more bypass diodes within the panel, the less power loss of the panel due to shading). Nowadays, cheapness is governing the market. Therefore...two bypass diodes in the best case, or none at all for the most of them...Competition makes this situation worst than ever before as regards quality. I wonder if there are panels out there using, say, six or eight bypass diodes any longer...And I finally don't think that there are...These things were happening at the time when the individual cells were circular in shape. So there was plenty of space available for installing these diodes. The rectangular shape of the modern cells makes things difficult for placing bypass diodes in the panels, but still the main factor for their disappearance is the cost they add. Quality does not matter any longer...
Thank you, very informative
Hello hello Amy and AltE...I really apreciate your "Hands On" series on top of your theoretical series...! Learning a lot. I have an old Japanese saying I use: "Function over Form". I believe you know this, but, just to be sure: In the beginning of this video, you mention the individual solar cells of 0,5V being connected in series, to obtain 18V. Pointing out the series along the top and showing it again in the diagram, is not a correct electrical "Series": The cells have a negative pad on the top and a positive pad on the bottom side. They are wired in series: From one Top(neg) to the next Bottom(plus), to ad up the voltages. PS: I know this video is: How to Wire Panels and I am murking around down in the machine room. Anyway...Spring Greetings to all from Denmark...Jakob
Good. W
When distance between solar panels and battery is long, then solar panels in series are better to reduce transmission losses.
Nice Information, it helped me in designing the efficient solar energy system in home. Thanks a lot...
Sad you just got played .. ther was No BY PASS DIODES
on these panels so there for the whole system get drawn down
Nice presentation but you mentioned a few things and didn't elaborate on them. One is that for those 2 panels, you recommend using separate charge controllers to get maximum power. Regarding that, I have 2 main questions:
1) Assuming both charge controllers are for 12V battery bank, is it ok to connect them both to the same battery bank at the same time without causing any issues?
2) Is it better than #1 if you have a 24V series connected battery bank and instead connect one 12V controller to one 12V "leg" and the other 12V controller to the other "leg"?
Awesome! This helped a lot!
I was worried about overloading my mppt solar controller but after watching this I got an idea of how to fix that problem, Just put a sheet of cardboard over part of one of the panels to reduce the watt flow.
As always,, very helpful and Informative video..thanks for this..
Thanks for the teaching. Appreciate it.
Excellent video, learned a lot!
very good show as always, i learn every time i watch and i save these to watch over and over. i like the fan on the left that it moves pans and tilts, would you say where or a link to a place that sells them, have not seen them up here, eh
Thanks George. I bought the fan a while back online. I think it is Peak PKC0JH. You should be able to Google it for your area. I've beat it up pretty bad over the years with demos (including running it directly off a 32Vmp solar panel), it still hangs in there.
A solid presentation on shading.
Good video, glad to know a midnight solar charge controller sucks at 90% efficiency when a victron is 98-99% efficient at comparable costs.
I think there is something wrong with your charge controller. With an AGM solar battery you should be charging at above 14.4V. I have a CTek D250SA and that outputs 14.65V typically to the AGM battery. 12.65V is less than float charge.
Very helpful.
Great video.
Top notch presentation.
for compact installations it might be great the parallel setup, but this methode requires bigger wiring, low voltage high current is more difficult to transport (more loss) than higher voltage systems (series)
in some situations it could be good to mix series and parallel
Absolutely. A larger system is best with an MPPT charge controller that can allow you to wire panels in series for higher voltage and lower current.
Great Vid
Great video,Pro explanation !
Very nice presentation. Did You notice that WATS on input like on out-up get this same? Yes, converter also is consuming some WATS, thats why there is difference in 5-8 WATS. But nice in that presentation is that voltage is changed when amps stays this same, and You get this same watts like with higher voltage and lower amps. On Your presentation that was difficult to see, because of outside sun and clouds and Your body, but in ideal room with this same light, You will get watts at this same level. But voltage will differ and amps also.
PS, I have question, did You not over power Your converter? Because I see that panels in series get higher voltage but Watts stop at 50 watts.
thanks for the explanation, amy
When in parallel ,if one panel has shade. Do the voltage from one panel give back feed to other panel due to voltage difference?
you did many research for us. Tks.
I so miss her very sweet lady 👸 of solar 👼
Always informative, thank you!
Good job👍😊
today i learned accidently that covering the bottom 4 inches of a panel completly took almost all its amperage output away for the entire panel. they are flexible mono panels that seem to only have a 3 x 6 cell config for a total of 18 cells.
Great information!
I hope you wouldn't mind helping me out a little bit and checking my math for me. I've been trying to find someone with an accurate answer....
I recently purchased 4 lightly used 270 watt, 35.5 volt pmax, 7.60amp pmax / 15amp fuse rating solar panels. So, if I connect them up in series I would get 1080watts with 142 volts at 7.6 amps. Correct?
I also purchased a DC pool pump rated at 72vdc that comes with a 72v Controller Box.
The Controller parameters are as follows: Rated current=12A, max solar input volts=150, current overload=15A, pump=1000W @ 72v, best working volts=88v.
Would you agree that my 4 panels in series is best and most efficient? Or do you recommend another configuration???
Amy is the best.
It's my understanding that amorphous solar cells work better in shading and diffuse light like cloudy days for the same nominal wattage. Yes I'm aware they're generally less efficient and hence have to be larger in size, but as long as I have room for a 1000 or 2000 Watts, wouldn't it be better if used cells that had better performance in the clouds and dim light assuming the cost isnt exceptionally greater?
This breaks my heart. I have a tiny cabin in the woods. I DO NOT want to cut down trees. All I want to run is a small 12v fan, maybe one 12v LED light, a 12v cellphone charger, and maybe a tiny portable wireless router. I was thinking 1 deep cycle battery and 100 watt panel should be overkill to keep it charged. However a largeamount of the panel would be covered. I always thought if 50% of the panel was covered, I would lose 50% of the power. clearly its not like that. It's much worse. Is there such a thing as a panel designed to be in tree shade, or would I be smart to take a bunch of the smallest 12v cells I could find, spread them out over the roof, and parallel them together? That way maybe 2 or 3 of the cells might have direct sun all the time. I do wish you showed what happens if you cover a large part of a panel. Like half. Is it something that it doesn't matter much if you cover 1 cell or half the cells you lose about the same, or is it like if you cover 1 cell you lose 50% and if you cover half the panel you lose basically 100%
That a very good video, thank you so much!
Great video! Thank you!
Such a great video
THANKS 😊 4 INFO...
PARALLEL
SHADING 😎 IT IS!
WHAT IS BETTER, ROOFTOP OR TEMP SET UP AS U HAVE IT?
Quick question, if I have 2 12v panels in series, can I add a 12v panel in parallel to that initial string, for the morning side of my roof
Very good video
Super ... Mam
Thank you for this. If I have 2 strings of 4 panels, 1 set faces east, and the other west. If I wire them in parallel, will the loss be minimal as well? So 4S (east) & 4S (west) combined to give me a 4S2P setup into a single MPPT controller. Hope that makes sense.
Perfect we love it
is this my OCD, or the cells were not completely shaded and it does matter?
Very helpful Thank you
Good video!
Maybe you can tell me why I get 10A or less from 10- 100W panels in parallel in full sun.
Each panel output is about 21V, but when paralleled, I get 16V.
I have this 10A or less going into a 1300W GTI.
I barely get 2A out of the GTI.
you are the best
If you fit a bypass capacitor on each panel when connected in series, does this reduce the problem, and if not, why not?
brillant. so I have 1x200w 12v panel facing East, and a 40amp MPPT controller. was thinking of a adding a WEST facing 200W panel. So using your shading example and using only the one MPPT, seems going parallel is the way to go, to get that bit extra out of them. thank you.
Sounds like a good plan. Since current is more affected in that case than voltage, planning for different amps is the way to go. Parallel would be best.
i got 24 250watt set Up East 45°in this way
4 panels in series 3 times 140v @ 27A on one EPever 60A@48v
4 panels in series 3 times 140v @ 27A on one EPever 60A@48v
West 45°
4 panels in series 3 times 140v @ 27A on one EPever 60A@48v
4 panels in series 3 times 140v @ 27A on one EPever 60A@48v
I use RECOM 250+5WATT GOLD PANELS with BY PASS DIODES
So this shearing nonsens is just What IT is ..
Every seriel set have IT's own 10mm² whole down to the MPPT
SO THE 27A don't get lost in oh say """ 4mm²"" is way good enough
Yes if you like loss and PWM IT SERTENLEY IS
BUT!!! I don't build shait .. with loss as a factor ..
Remember!!
If IT is just .. good enough .. IT is Half BAD!!!
But if I increase my amps I will need much larger wires. Especially over a 16 panel system. My problem is half my panels will be on the west slope roof and half on south. Half will be shaded all the time as the sun travels. I am very northern in Alberta
I have 3 x 40v panels in parallel connected to a 24v system and today its a bit cloudy and the panels make less than 24v only 6v aswell. so of course it cant charge , but why? shouldnt only the amps drop with shade, why the voltage? if i connect them in series i am not sure if i solve the problem because if 1 makes only 5-8v i am still not reaching more than 24, so whats the problem? always when i measure the output voltage directly from the panels, its always about 37v with strong sun and when its cloudy aswell, but as soon as i attach them to the mppt the voltage drops to 6v or less
a question. , in my 8 panels setup one panel face the shade , all are connected in series, obviously they have built-in bypass diodes, may I know what would be your expert advice, should I install another bypass diode on that PANEL although it has built-in internal diodes present? or the blocking diode with that panel would be good? plz advice.
the 10% loss of the pwm controller is quite substantial until the voltage drops so low that charging cannot happen.. it is the change in Power which is important .. so the amperage or wattage is the thing to watch !
I have 3 x 330 watts of solar on the roof of the RV and I was going to go with 4 x 330... but space and time did not let me.
I was going to go with 2 x 2 in series and then those in parallel... ended up just going with the 3 in series with ONE big MPPT CC.
I hope I'm NOT in the shade needing more solar...
Nice! If you do experience shading problems at all, that MPPT controller will likely also take 3x in parallel to charge a 12V system
Hi Amy. Firstly thanks a lot for your interesting videos. I have a question for you! What if I have one of the solar panels placed outside that is affected by the shadow of a neighboring wall. Can I place and use a common mirror to redirect the solar light to the panel? Can you show us how (in)effective this would be? thanks a lot. :)
If Schottky barrier diodes could be paralleled with each cell, it would make it so shadowing one cell would only lose the voltage of 1-1/2 cells, rather than an entire string of cells within a panel. It would make more sense, to just put all the cells in series, and series all the panels in the array, so that all you lose, is just a few volts if the corner of one panel gets shaded. The amperage will never change. That would make an array much more effective, if there are branches, blades of a turbine, or features of the roof casting shadows on portions of an array. All the panels I own, have 3 diodes. If I block one cell, I lose 1/3 of the panel. If the shadow creeps up on the end of one of the panels, I lose the entire panel! The worst case scenario, is a partially shaded cell, where the voltage of the fully exposed cells reverse polarizes a cell, that's putting out less current. That creates severe spot heating of the partially shaded cell, which can permanently damage it, reducing the current capability of the entire panel. Shottky diodes on each cell will guarantee that could never happen. The more cells on each string between diodes, the more damaging partial shading of single cells becomes.
The problem with that is each cell only produces 1/2V, and each diode results in about 1/2V loss. So you would end up with pretty much no voltage out.
@@AltEStore In a panel, the photovoltaic cells are in a series. I'm planning on placing the diodes in parallel with each cell. The diodes do absolutely nothing, unless a cell(or cells) is shaded. They're just there, to minimize the reverse voltage drop, if a single, or a small group of cells is shaded. When paralleled, the cathode of each diode will be connected to the anode(+) of each cell, the anode of each diode will be connected to the cathode(-) of the same cell. A strange, and in some ways useful, characteristic of a single photovoltaic cell, is that they produce current proportionate to the amount of light hitting it. That current remains constant, weather the cell is being reverse biased, shorted, or even allowed to produce power. If one cell is partially shaded, the whole panel can only pass the same current, as that cell. The cell will go into reverse bias, which absorbs the voltage produced by other cells in the series, curtailing the current potential of the fully illuminated cells. If a reverse bypass diode is in parallel, the cell only experiences
(Continuing the first reply) 1/2 volt of reverse bias, instead of the voltage of all the cells in series with it, making it completely safe for that cell, and allows, the fully illuminated cells to pass their full current. At that point, it would be most efficient, to have all panels in a series. I just haven't found panels, with that feature.
Wondering if mounting a diffuser lens above or white reflector beside the panel would be useful by spreading the light out and overcoming shade problem.
Or heck amorphous silicon cells have much less problem w shading so just use them (or maybe instead as a translucent diffusing layer over each mono-/poly-si cell with each pair being in parallel to reduce resistance during shade events).
Given the performance of fully vs. partially shaded cells, would it be better to rotate these panels 90° so that as a shadow moves right-to-left across a panel, when that first inch is shaded, it partially shades 16 cells, rather than fully shading 4? 🤓🤔🤷♂️
I wish you would have used regular 36 cell panels. These 72 cell panels have the other half of the panel in parallel and makes the power drop less dramatic. It was still a great demo though.
Sorry, I didn't have two identical 36 cell panels readily available at the time. But as I said to someone else, the demo was still valid, as wiring them in series did still create a bottleneck, and wiring in parallel showed improved output.
would it be possible to do the same tests in a shoot out between the 36 and 72 cell panels?
That's a cool idea. Let me see what I can pull together. I might be able to compare shading 12V 140W panels, one with 36 cells and one with 72 cells. I'll give you my prediction, the 72 cell will perform better, but let's see it work. It's on the list (I may need a few weeks, I've got a lot going on, be patient).
thanks very helpful!
Better to buy panels with more by-pass diodes. Canadian Solar uses half-cut cells and has more columns. They put a by-pass diode on each column. Allegedly, Sunpower has a by-pass diode across each cell.
Be aware that there is voltage drop across diodes. Just a little bit per diode, but it can start adding up when you use more diodes. You have to find the sweet spot between shade protection and lower voltage from too many diodes.
Thanks a lot for the content)