Interesting about the small-scale field testing with multiple riders. It seems like with all the large fleets of e-bikes -- often publicly operated or relying on public subsidies -- different lubrication approaches could be tested on a much larger scale with bikes which are essentially the same, operated the same, and exposed to same environmental conditions. Since there's often a public interest in the consequences of lubrication -- holding down maintenance costs and maximizing availability -- an academic party might even be able to obtain grants. Just seems like a niche that's not being tapped.
In interest of the continuing the discussion. Not all 12 speed chains will be going on 12 speed group sets. I found a 12 speed chain runs quieter and is less likely to rub on my Ultegra 11 speed than an 11speed chain, and never bought another 11speed chain again. I don't think my experience is an isolated one.
@@Lacking_something for Shimano, the difference between 11s and 12s is the thickness of the outer plates. This means that internally the dimensions are the same save for chamfers and similar for hyperglide+ or other features. For SRAM I'd do some more research, but my hunch would be that a 12s chain compatible with shimano would work great on 11s Sram. Sram 12s is something else though.
Very excited about those two vids about chain prep and maintenance. Very helpful for the new to the topic, but fully converted (it’ll help keep us from going back to the dark side 🤭). No sweat about running your business - seems OK to me for you and your staff 🎉 And, most important is family time: life isn’t about work or cycling, it’s about family, so glad to hear you have perspecyive (not that we didn’t know that already😊).
ah sadly i had to scratch!! i think that is only my second ever scratching in all this time!!! I was knocked off my bike commuting to the city on wednesday evening - not a bad one, car pulled out seeing only a gap in traffic, and somehow despite I KID YOU NOT A 6000 LUMEN MTB LIGHT i use for commutes into town - the guy didnt see a cyclist riding with the equivalent of an arc welder at full tilt glowing on the front of the bike. Anyhoo i hit the brakes, he hit the brakes, so i was only doing about 10kmh and him about 5 to 10kmh when he T-boned me knocking me off to check how my stuntman landing form is going. I thought i did pretty well - but asphalt is always hard - so bit of bruised hip, shoulder and elbow, and i did feel my lower back got a bit of twinge / twist - but all up it was a minor stack. Driver was very apologetic which is always nice so i said all good, just pls be more careful, bike seemed fine apart from slightly bent hanger. I continued on, did a hard 1.5hr muah thai class, rode an hour back up the hill after- thought all fine. Lower back was sore thurs and fri but ok, but then sat morning on just a really innocuous movement - sharp twang in back, and then was barely walking all weekend- i actually found that ones office chair makes an ok stand in zimmer frame hahahaha So very sadly i missed the race, which was bugger as a lovely day and a one of my favourite mtb places for that round :( Getting better now, monday was still rough, yesterday much better, today i reckon im good to ride outside again yeehaa But dammit doesnt that driver know im trying to get to 1000!!! that would have been 302.... Not sure what else i can do to prevent in future though short of shooting flares off the front of my bike. I mean... the light is like a portable sun, it is a 900 dollar, 6 thousand lumen light - i really thought that would do it (and it has until now, but sheezus how, how, how did he not see that. Already i am making pedestrians squint and drivers looking to pull out having to squint also as its FARKEN bright. sigh....)
@zerofrictioncycling992 I'm glad you made it through that incident. Get a helmet mount light and put it in strobe mode along with your other light, that could help. Heal up fast and get back to working towards your goal 👍🏻
Thank god its Friday. Yes the kmc digi is expensive if you don't shop around. Picked up mine for $110 and they're still that price. Total order was $450 for 5 items with shipping. Single item purchase doesn't stack up though, because shipping. I'd previously ordered from this online store as my ebike was German and accessories weren't available from the Australian distributors.
I can usually get a solid 18” of links to measure the center to center pin dimensions and if it’s 1/16” of extra length, it’s becoming time to replace a chain. That’s 0.3% right there. Inches still matter when the chain pitch is still 0.500000” after all these years 😂
A shop owner I saw earlier today said "hurry up" , with testing, earlier today , an odd statement . They also said that you have resourcing management problems , in their opinion . This work is interesting but not garnering much wider recognition for it as it isn't done in an internationally certified laboratory with exact process .
I am not sure how to respond to this one Robert aside from to say of course the testing is not internationally certified, thats an issue for the entire industry - ZFC testing is a pretty blunt tool hopefully interim measure until there is a proper standard, sadly we are a long way from that. I could invest huge amounts of $$ and time to make the test less blunt but there would be extremely low chance of that every becoming and industry standard. How would a shop owner have any idea re if i manage resources well or terribly? They have absolutely no insight at all into ZFC work load and productivity with resources we have. I am biased but considering this is a hobby business running with me working part time, a retail manager working part time and website lady working very part time - i think for 1 FTE equivalent we get through a lot of work running an online business as well as flat out testing business. I doubt they have any insight into how much time the testing takes, the number of chains we prep per week and full race chain optimisations for the retail store, enquiries, order fulfilment, stock / inventory as well as all the other admin required for running a small business. All from me working 0.5, Andrew 0.4 and Jill 0.1. The problems we have are yes - overall amount of work requested / to be done exceeds our 1 FTE resource, but again, this is a HOBBY business. i have much to do on many other fronts outside of ZFC. I am not looking to work more nor expand more, we will get done what we can get done as we can get it done.
My response to this Robert is that ZFC’s results are the only RELEVANT standardized testing being done on the subject, and many enthusiasts and racing teams are watching ZFC and getting the benefits of less friction and longer wearing chains. The science of chain wear and watts lost is pretty intuitive the way ZFC does it. I really like what ZFC and Silca are doing: they’re showing how they test, they’re riding the bikes, measuring wear, and continuously testing products. Real products under real conditions! That’s gold, and no one has done this before on the scale ZFC has done.
Still nothing from SRAM on 0.8-gate! Out of interest what do you do to zero / calibrate your KMC digital checkers? Our original workshop one just died and the new one seems to be an updated model. Also the Abbey tools guage is softer than the chain it's checking, so won't it wear out quite quickly? As always keep up the brilliant work, hope you enjoy your upcoming vacation 😀
yes it should, but the cost to run calcs already problematic, and master links overall is just so variable. Ie ybn which you can get for most chains are 5x re useable, so cost is very low. Or there is wippermann connex that last life span of chain. Or some there is no re useable option like T-Type and so is one ok to re use single use link. Other links are nuts prices like campagnolo - one can use ybn for 11 and 12spd, but not ekar. Already the cost to run is going to need a major overhaul as it is problematic numbers with poor performing lubricants because people do not change chains at 0.5% with such lubricants and so the cost to run does not match their actual reality in any way - stay tuned for future but yeah i think that whole thing needs a different approach, so yep you are correct it should - but i never got there, and it just all needs a re do.
oh and sorry unsure re birzman - i think i tried one some years back and it was out, but i am not 100% sure so i dont want to sully their name incorrectly - just if you do get one / have one - check it against another tool / calipers (trip to lbs should be able to help).
Finish Line are heavily advertising their Halo products e.g. MTB News De. This is what they advertised: "In order to be effective in all cycling disciplines, it was developed in the laboratory and tested by leading professional cycling teams, who have already confirmed its performance...Finish Line HALO products are made using high quality ingredients such as patented spherical tungsten. Spherical tungsten features a patented hollow core to reduce vibrational friction caused by high torque pedaling. These micron-sized particles are spherical in shape and further reduce friction by creating a rolling effect on the surface of the chain." No comments were allowed.
yeah i have no doubts they will be going hard - but wow wow wow it would great to understand their headline claims around spherical tungsten as we are still very much at the claims as stated are simply impossible, and impossible due to very simple physics and logic around particle size and pressures. The claims are literally nonsensical. Even if the reality was the product was extremely high performing, even if it turned out in all testing it was the lowest friction lowest wear product ever- still the actual marketing claims around micron sized hollow tungsten spheres would remain non sensical and literally impossible. Its a fascinating ongoing product investigation this one...
@@johnlesoudeur3653 there was a minor issue that due to the extreme low friction, stirring speed really stepped up a notch. I was really caught out by just how much faster the teaspoon moved through the liquid. I forgot to mention the mug i was using also had hollow spherical tungsten in the ceramic, and so there was just no friction from the sides of the mug either. The surprisingly fast stirring generated a very impressive coffee whirlpool that just kept on spinning, making drinking the coffee a little more difficult, i dont usually have to account for lateral velocity of the coffee when taking a sip
Hi Adam, Has anyone reported issues with the "Lamb Shanks" slow cooker you recommend on your Waxing FAQs? Mine will not get the wax fully melted on the low setting. My MSW was probably 70-80% melted(after being on for 1hr 20mins). I had somewhere to be so ended up swishing the chain in what was melted and hung it up to dry. The chain was sitting submerged in the wax that was melted for quite a while before that as well. On the first ride the chain was making a slight squeaking noise and was riding rougher as the ride went on. I decided to re-wax, after 2 hours on low the wax was still not fully melted, I used a thermometer and it was only reading 55 degrees(might have been 60 degrees can't remember). I decided to turn it on high to get it melted, this time when swishing lots of bubbles were coming out of the chain. I assume this is the wax getting into the rollers so I am hopefully this has solved the issues, I haven't ridden it yet. I did leave it on high a bit too long and temp got to 100 degrees so I hope this hasn't damaged the wax. Any comments/pointers appreciated!
Hey matthew, not issues as such but some have said takes awhile on low - so if use high just make sure a) lid off and b) set a timer so dont forget overnight. a couple hours on high with lid off should be no issues re temp - i used to do that sometimes when i had that pot. 100 is fine, even 125 for using strip chip etc is fine for that time. its really extended times above 120 or especially 140+ etc thats not optimal. and yes if if squeaking etc thats not good, so good you re waxed. The units have just set power output on high / low - and maybe there is a bit of variance with these units - but they will also be impacted by wax fill level and ambient temp. if low is too low, and high ends up getting too high in too short a time, wrap a layer of aluminium foil between pot and unit - reflective size to unit - this will slow / lessen the heat rate on high
SRAM chains: the KMC digital won’t even work on flattops. Right? Has a dead stop on the gauge that won’t let it measure small enough. Thanks for reminding me about the abbey….gotta get one! Ironically, I’m working on a video on this. Chain Data: I think 9 speed and 10 speed is a bigger piece of pie for me. But your info was certainly interesting to see. I’ll email you my data if I can get it together.
they do but they will read - 0.1mm less due to oversize roller size. so they wont go in to begin with, and when you can get them in and it reads say 0.1mm, then thats really 0.2mm for chains of normal roller size
Adam, just bought a couple new Shimano 9100 chains and as I was stripping them of factory grease for waxing I thought: is it going to affect the Siltec coating? What about immersive waxing itself? Can it melt and remove Siltec? Searched online, could not find an answer. I was using carbon based degreasers (Wax and grease etc) and a final clean in Isopropyl alcohol.
@@sevontiy a big powerful ultrasonic - something one might put engine parts in etc. Like everything there is the right tool for the job, watchmakers dont have much use for a sledgehammer unless the repair has gone really badly, and construction workers rarely need a watchmakers hammer. The normal ultrasonics one would buy to clean chains will not damage chain or strip any low friction coating embedded by the mfg. Using ones auto service shops ultrasonic likely would - which has been done, one person sent me pics once of chain metal all pitted after being US cleaned at work!
If you do a search for ... shimano-sil-tec-chain-technology , the Shimano site states that ... " This process involves applying imbedded fluorine particles to the chain using an advanced plating process that is superior to the simple coatings used in other chains. " To me, that sounds like Siltec is effectively 'welded' / part of the chain metal , so it won't easily come off .
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you very helpful. On that subject: my bike came with a Deore chain, I noticed pitting on the outside plates (which I believe to be chrome coated on Deore), it became obvious after stripping the chain and further waxing hid that a bit. What is your opinion on that coating damage? What might be the reason for it? Inner plates seemmed to be intact. XTR chains do not seem to have that problem.
Ok here's a niche question... Should I strip and wax the chain on my chain whip tool!? When I use it (I think it has factory grease on) it contaminates my bike chain!
ah you can for sure but normally an level of contamination from a chain whip should be pretty uber low unless you are using it on stacks of oily cassettes all the time!
Hey Phil! its a bit more variable than that - ie the shimano 12s m8100 is SUPER rust prone, but an ultegra 11s is normal. Some chains with platings (gold, black, rainbow etc) have a higher level of resistance until the plating is abraded off outside of rollers. Not always (as in the shimano m8100 example) - rust usually starts on rollers as they are a high carbon steel for hardness. In general however as long as one is covering the basics, rust for any chain should not be an issue. Ie just done a big wet ride and dont have time to do a re wax, wipe chain dry and put a quick coating of wax drip on - 30 second job, and boom - chain is protected. If re wax, chain is protected. And same depending on wet lube all one has to do post wet ride from a rust perspective is put a quick top up on. It is only when people ride in wet and park bike and dont think about it for a day - rust can be an issue. If one can't reset all the contamination the wet ride has brought in (re wax or other flush clean as per chain maintenance guide) - the just a quick top up coating and all is grand. If one needs an anti corrosion chain, then 99% of the time they will have bigger problems re friction and wear and riding in wet, just parking bike and going again - the lubrication inside the chain is not going to be going well....
Regarding your questiion about oil sensing, I suspect the easiest approach might be to immerse chain in water under controlled conditions, and then use some oil-in-water sensor. You would not be getting absolute measures of oil in a chain, just relative measures. Maybe local port authorities, environmental agencies, or university engineering departments could provide some leads? I've occasionally observed environmental activists looking for spills around suspect sites. So oil refineries or storage sites might also have some leads. As opposed to owning a sensor, maybe there are labs dedicated to offering this as a service on a take-in or mail-in basis. And ultimately the best answer might be to contact a university tribology department, such as Purdue.
thanks John, yes i have seen such and most do require sending samples off to a lab for testing which is not really what i want to have to do. Maybe i will have to go that path in the end but if i can do in house and nicely visual that will be great!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Tough problem. If by visual you mean something that could be shown in videos, there are a couple of proxy tests that could be done on steel plates, i.e. the "water drop test" and the "copper sulfate test." Both kind of go/no go tests with some level of industry acceptance
I believe that you already know what the end of the story will be with Finish Line Halo...they relied on the standards-based testing only, they took the best result they saw, then they marketed the sh*t out of if. The results that you saw with your testing along with the preliminary results you learned from Perdue Univ. and the fact that Finish Line is now ghosting you tells me all I need to know. Next please...
yeah still this one is fascinating to me as it is a big, big brand with a big headline product, going hard and so they will likely have overall excellent market penetration. And with that we have nuts wear rate from test which is of great concern to me re cyclist outcome, and also the marketing claims - wow wow wow it would great to understand their headline claims around spherical tungsten as we are still very much at the claims as stated are simply impossible, and impossible due to very simple physics and logic around particle size and pressures. The claims are literally nonsensical. Even if the reality was the product was extremely high performing, even if it turned out in all testing it was the lowest friction lowest wear product ever- still the actual marketing claims around micron sized hollow tungsten spheres would remain non sensical and literally impossible. Its a fascinating ongoing product investigation this one...
Hey stephen! i tested graphenlube for AB but this is locked up still under NDA, which is sort of nonsensical as it was overall a great result, it is a great product, just really its expense and must apply immersive initially (which will literally cost you like $50) makes this a very niche product in my opinion vs say UFO that all you have to do is apply more frequently. Graphen lube is a top choice for very long events as it has outstanding treatment longevity, so very long , harsh A priority races - it is a great choice if one can afford it - but otherwise...... Anyhoo since my detail review would not have included a bunch of stuff from AB that i severely disagreed with (i wont go into it but suffice to say, i would never accept a test for them again) - we could not get agreement and so no open results / review. It is far, far to small a niche product for me to allocate the resources to re test on my own volition as an open test (i did do for single application longevity however) - there is just so much other much higher priority testing to try to get to. So in short, its great, but for day to day re lubing - way to expensive, and even for most racing - you dont need that level of longevity, and for the few races it will come in handy, there are also other options like REx BD 4+1 mix wax at a fraction of the price for a treatment.
There is no doubt the products are absorbing grease, so them changing colour is expected, it is are they leaving any grease behind. Especially multiple chains per 200ml etc as they claim to be able to do, so the chain is what i really need detection agent on.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 sorry I meant maybe if silca can give you details on their colour changing ingredient it might help you find something useful for your requirements
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I think they point out this process might be used to detect grease as well. However, I think the supposed colour change is more to do with the foam turning back into liquid, rather than a sophisticated chemical process. I suspect it's basically a built in timer rather than a true indicator of it's work being done.
yep sorry the camera seems to be trying to adjust, i turned off auto adjust last week but it must have turned itself back on! sorry will try to remember to check that next time, i just thought it would have stayed off this week.... sigh.... tech stuff.....
Interesting about the small-scale field testing with multiple riders. It seems like with all the large fleets of e-bikes -- often publicly operated or relying on public subsidies -- different lubrication approaches could be tested on a much larger scale with bikes which are essentially the same, operated the same, and exposed to same environmental conditions. Since there's often a public interest in the consequences of lubrication -- holding down maintenance costs and maximizing availability -- an academic party might even be able to obtain grants. Just seems like a niche that's not being tapped.
Well done, Adam. Have a great holiday!
18:56 +1 for the Abbey Tools Checker. Great tool and easy to use.
In interest of the continuing the discussion. Not all 12 speed chains will be going on 12 speed group sets. I found a 12 speed chain runs quieter and is less likely to rub on my Ultegra 11 speed than an 11speed chain, and never bought another 11speed chain again. I don't think my experience is an isolated one.
@@adamcharles9090 I did not know you could do that! I had assumed that 11sp cassette and chainring teeth were too wide. Good to know!
@@Lacking_something for Shimano, the difference between 11s and 12s is the thickness of the outer plates. This means that internally the dimensions are the same save for chamfers and similar for hyperglide+ or other features. For SRAM I'd do some more research, but my hunch would be that a 12s chain compatible with shimano would work great on 11s Sram. Sram 12s is something else though.
I liked hearing about the chain sales changes. 11 speed for me still at the moment. Thanks for another interesting video.
Very excited about those two vids about chain prep and maintenance. Very helpful for the new to the topic, but fully converted (it’ll help keep us from going back to the dark side 🤭). No sweat about running your business - seems OK to me for you and your staff 🎉 And, most important is family time: life isn’t about work or cycling, it’s about family, so glad to hear you have perspecyive (not that we didn’t know that already😊).
Rock on in your MTB race 👍🏻
ah sadly i had to scratch!! i think that is only my second ever scratching in all this time!!! I was knocked off my bike commuting to the city on wednesday evening - not a bad one, car pulled out seeing only a gap in traffic, and somehow despite I KID YOU NOT A 6000 LUMEN MTB LIGHT i use for commutes into town - the guy didnt see a cyclist riding with the equivalent of an arc welder at full tilt glowing on the front of the bike.
Anyhoo i hit the brakes, he hit the brakes, so i was only doing about 10kmh and him about 5 to 10kmh when he T-boned me knocking me off to check how my stuntman landing form is going. I thought i did pretty well - but asphalt is always hard - so bit of bruised hip, shoulder and elbow, and i did feel my lower back got a bit of twinge / twist - but all up it was a minor stack. Driver was very apologetic which is always nice so i said all good, just pls be more careful, bike seemed fine apart from slightly bent hanger. I continued on, did a hard 1.5hr muah thai class, rode an hour back up the hill after- thought all fine.
Lower back was sore thurs and fri but ok, but then sat morning on just a really innocuous movement - sharp twang in back, and then was barely walking all weekend- i actually found that ones office chair makes an ok stand in zimmer frame hahahaha
So very sadly i missed the race, which was bugger as a lovely day and a one of my favourite mtb places for that round :(
Getting better now, monday was still rough, yesterday much better, today i reckon im good to ride outside again yeehaa
But dammit doesnt that driver know im trying to get to 1000!!! that would have been 302....
Not sure what else i can do to prevent in future though short of shooting flares off the front of my bike. I mean... the light is like a portable sun, it is a 900 dollar, 6 thousand lumen light - i really thought that would do it (and it has until now, but sheezus how, how, how did he not see that. Already i am making pedestrians squint and drivers looking to pull out having to squint also as its FARKEN bright. sigh....)
@zerofrictioncycling992 I'm glad you made it through that incident. Get a helmet mount light and put it in strobe mode along with your other light, that could help.
Heal up fast and get back to working towards your goal 👍🏻
Thank god its Friday. Yes the kmc digi is expensive if you don't shop around. Picked up mine for $110 and they're still that price. Total order was $450 for 5 items with shipping. Single item purchase doesn't stack up though, because shipping. I'd previously ordered from this online store as my ebike was German and accessories weren't available from the Australian distributors.
I can usually get a solid 18” of links to measure the center to center pin dimensions and if it’s 1/16” of extra length, it’s becoming time to replace a chain. That’s 0.3% right there. Inches still matter when the chain pitch is still 0.500000” after all these years 😂
A shop owner I saw earlier today said "hurry up" , with testing, earlier today , an odd statement . They also said that you have resourcing management problems , in their opinion . This work is interesting but not garnering much wider recognition for it as it isn't done in an internationally certified laboratory with exact process .
I am not sure how to respond to this one Robert aside from to say of course the testing is not internationally certified, thats an issue for the entire industry - ZFC testing is a pretty blunt tool hopefully interim measure until there is a proper standard, sadly we are a long way from that. I could invest huge amounts of $$ and time to make the test less blunt but there would be extremely low chance of that every becoming and industry standard.
How would a shop owner have any idea re if i manage resources well or terribly? They have absolutely no insight at all into ZFC work load and productivity with resources we have. I am biased but considering this is a hobby business running with me working part time, a retail manager working part time and website lady working very part time - i think for 1 FTE equivalent we get through a lot of work running an online business as well as flat out testing business. I doubt they have any insight into how much time the testing takes, the number of chains we prep per week and full race chain optimisations for the retail store, enquiries, order fulfilment, stock / inventory as well as all the other admin required for running a small business. All from me working 0.5, Andrew 0.4 and Jill 0.1.
The problems we have are yes - overall amount of work requested / to be done exceeds our 1 FTE resource, but again, this is a HOBBY business. i have much to do on many other fronts outside of ZFC. I am not looking to work more nor expand more, we will get done what we can get done as we can get it done.
My response to this Robert is that ZFC’s results are the only RELEVANT standardized testing being done on the subject, and many enthusiasts and racing teams are watching ZFC and getting the benefits of less friction and longer wearing chains. The science of chain wear and watts lost is pretty intuitive the way ZFC does it. I really like what ZFC and Silca are doing: they’re showing how they test, they’re riding the bikes, measuring wear, and continuously testing products. Real products under real conditions! That’s gold, and no one has done this before on the scale ZFC has done.
Still nothing from SRAM on 0.8-gate!
Out of interest what do you do to zero / calibrate your KMC digital checkers? Our original workshop one just died and the new one seems to be an updated model.
Also the Abbey tools guage is softer than the chain it's checking, so won't it wear out quite quickly?
As always keep up the brilliant work, hope you enjoy your upcoming vacation 😀
Should be a new chain link every three immersive waxing be included to the cost of immersive waxing?
What about the Birzman chain checker?
yes it should, but the cost to run calcs already problematic, and master links overall is just so variable. Ie ybn which you can get for most chains are 5x re useable, so cost is very low. Or there is wippermann connex that last life span of chain. Or some there is no re useable option like T-Type and so is one ok to re use single use link. Other links are nuts prices like campagnolo - one can use ybn for 11 and 12spd, but not ekar.
Already the cost to run is going to need a major overhaul as it is problematic numbers with poor performing lubricants because people do not change chains at 0.5% with such lubricants and so the cost to run does not match their actual reality in any way - stay tuned for future but yeah i think that whole thing needs a different approach, so yep you are correct it should - but i never got there, and it just all needs a re do.
oh and sorry unsure re birzman - i think i tried one some years back and it was out, but i am not 100% sure so i dont want to sully their name incorrectly - just if you do get one / have one - check it against another tool / calipers (trip to lbs should be able to help).
What increments does the Birzman have? I don’t have one.
Finish Line are heavily advertising their Halo products e.g. MTB News De. This is what they advertised: "In order to be effective in all cycling disciplines, it was developed in the laboratory and tested by leading professional cycling teams, who have already confirmed its performance...Finish Line HALO products are made using high quality ingredients such as patented spherical tungsten. Spherical tungsten features a patented hollow core to reduce vibrational friction caused by high torque pedaling. These micron-sized particles are spherical in shape and further reduce friction by creating a rolling effect on the surface of the chain." No comments were allowed.
Osram lighting have created hollow core spherical tungsten before this in projector lamps .
yeah i have no doubts they will be going hard - but wow wow wow it would great to understand their headline claims around spherical tungsten as we are still very much at the claims as stated are simply impossible, and impossible due to very simple physics and logic around particle size and pressures. The claims are literally nonsensical. Even if the reality was the product was extremely high performing, even if it turned out in all testing it was the lowest friction lowest wear product ever- still the actual marketing claims around micron sized hollow tungsten spheres would remain non sensical and literally impossible.
Its a fascinating ongoing product investigation this one...
@@robertmcfadyen9156 I made a great coffee this morning thanks to my teaspoon having the latest spherical hollow tungsten sphere technology.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 And the reduced friction would prevent any damaging heat build up to compromise the coffee taste. 😂
@@johnlesoudeur3653 there was a minor issue that due to the extreme low friction, stirring speed really stepped up a notch. I was really caught out by just how much faster the teaspoon moved through the liquid. I forgot to mention the mug i was using also had hollow spherical tungsten in the ceramic, and so there was just no friction from the sides of the mug either. The surprisingly fast stirring generated a very impressive coffee whirlpool that just kept on spinning, making drinking the coffee a little more difficult, i dont usually have to account for lateral velocity of the coffee when taking a sip
Hi Adam,
Has anyone reported issues with the "Lamb Shanks" slow cooker you recommend on your Waxing FAQs? Mine will not get the wax fully melted on the low setting. My MSW was probably 70-80% melted(after being on for 1hr 20mins). I had somewhere to be so ended up swishing the chain in what was melted and hung it up to dry. The chain was sitting submerged in the wax that was melted for quite a while before that as well. On the first ride the chain was making a slight squeaking noise and was riding rougher as the ride went on. I decided to re-wax, after 2 hours on low the wax was still not fully melted, I used a thermometer and it was only reading 55 degrees(might have been 60 degrees can't remember). I decided to turn it on high to get it melted, this time when swishing lots of bubbles were coming out of the chain. I assume this is the wax getting into the rollers so I am hopefully this has solved the issues, I haven't ridden it yet. I did leave it on high a bit too long and temp got to 100 degrees so I hope this hasn't damaged the wax. Any comments/pointers appreciated!
Hey matthew, not issues as such but some have said takes awhile on low - so if use high just make sure a) lid off and b) set a timer so dont forget overnight. a couple hours on high with lid off should be no issues re temp - i used to do that sometimes when i had that pot.
100 is fine, even 125 for using strip chip etc is fine for that time. its really extended times above 120 or especially 140+ etc thats not optimal.
and yes if if squeaking etc thats not good, so good you re waxed.
The units have just set power output on high / low - and maybe there is a bit of variance with these units - but they will also be impacted by wax fill level and ambient temp. if low is too low, and high ends up getting too high in too short a time, wrap a layer of aluminium foil between pot and unit - reflective size to unit - this will slow / lessen the heat rate on high
park tool's cc-4.2 now has a 1% wear indicator too for fixed gear riders who change chains late
SRAM chains: the KMC digital won’t even work on flattops. Right? Has a dead stop on the gauge that won’t let it measure small enough. Thanks for reminding me about the abbey….gotta get one! Ironically, I’m working on a video on this. Chain Data: I think 9 speed and 10 speed is a bigger piece of pie for me. But your info was certainly interesting to see. I’ll email you my data if I can get it together.
they do but they will read - 0.1mm less due to oversize roller size. so they wont go in to begin with, and when you can get them in and it reads say 0.1mm, then thats really 0.2mm for chains of normal roller size
Adam, just bought a couple new Shimano 9100 chains and as I was stripping them of factory grease for waxing I thought: is it going to affect the Siltec coating? What about immersive waxing itself? Can it melt and remove Siltec? Searched online, could not find an answer. I was using carbon based degreasers (Wax and grease etc) and a final clean in Isopropyl alcohol.
Hey! no you wont remove the siltec coating, any cleaning that would do that would be harsh on the chain metal! ie industrial parts cleaner!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 What is an industrial parts cleaner? Acids?
@@sevontiy a big powerful ultrasonic - something one might put engine parts in etc. Like everything there is the right tool for the job, watchmakers dont have much use for a sledgehammer unless the repair has gone really badly, and construction workers rarely need a watchmakers hammer. The normal ultrasonics one would buy to clean chains will not damage chain or strip any low friction coating embedded by the mfg. Using ones auto service shops ultrasonic likely would - which has been done, one person sent me pics once of chain metal all pitted after being US cleaned at work!
If you do a search for ...
shimano-sil-tec-chain-technology
, the Shimano site states that ...
" This process involves applying imbedded fluorine particles to the chain using an advanced plating process that is superior to the simple coatings used in other chains. "
To me, that sounds like Siltec is effectively 'welded' / part of the chain metal , so it won't easily come off .
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Thank you very helpful. On that subject: my bike came with a Deore chain, I noticed pitting on the outside plates (which I believe to be chrome coated on Deore), it became obvious after stripping the chain and further waxing hid that a bit. What is your opinion on that coating damage? What might be the reason for it? Inner plates seemmed to be intact. XTR chains do not seem to have that problem.
Ok here's a niche question... Should I strip and wax the chain on my chain whip tool!? When I use it (I think it has factory grease on) it contaminates my bike chain!
Just clean your cassette after using it
ah you can for sure but normally an level of contamination from a chain whip should be pretty uber low unless you are using it on stacks of oily cassettes all the time!
I did because I am OCD like that.
@@_slowpoke good idea! I guess the chain whip is not used when putting cassette back on. I might still degrease the chain whip but not wax it.
@@Lacking_something waste of time
No one is talking about waxed chains going rusty. If you buy a top end chain they are far more rust resistant in bad weather
Hey Phil! its a bit more variable than that - ie the shimano 12s m8100 is SUPER rust prone, but an ultegra 11s is normal. Some chains with platings (gold, black, rainbow etc) have a higher level of resistance until the plating is abraded off outside of rollers.
Not always (as in the shimano m8100 example) - rust usually starts on rollers as they are a high carbon steel for hardness.
In general however as long as one is covering the basics, rust for any chain should not be an issue. Ie just done a big wet ride and dont have time to do a re wax, wipe chain dry and put a quick coating of wax drip on - 30 second job, and boom - chain is protected. If re wax, chain is protected. And same depending on wet lube all one has to do post wet ride from a rust perspective is put a quick top up on. It is only when people ride in wet and park bike and dont think about it for a day - rust can be an issue. If one can't reset all the contamination the wet ride has brought in (re wax or other flush clean as per chain maintenance guide) - the just a quick top up coating and all is grand.
If one needs an anti corrosion chain, then 99% of the time they will have bigger problems re friction and wear and riding in wet, just parking bike and going again - the lubrication inside the chain is not going to be going well....
Regarding your questiion about oil sensing, I suspect the easiest approach might be to immerse chain in water under controlled conditions, and then use some oil-in-water sensor. You would not be getting absolute measures of oil in a chain, just relative measures. Maybe local port authorities, environmental agencies, or university engineering departments could provide some leads? I've occasionally observed environmental activists looking for spills around suspect sites. So oil refineries or storage sites might also have some leads. As opposed to owning a sensor, maybe there are labs dedicated to offering this as a service on a take-in or mail-in basis. And ultimately the best answer might be to contact a university tribology department, such as Purdue.
thanks John, yes i have seen such and most do require sending samples off to a lab for testing which is not really what i want to have to do. Maybe i will have to go that path in the end but if i can do in house and nicely visual that will be great!
@@zerofrictioncycling992 Tough problem. If by visual you mean something that could be shown in videos, there are a couple of proxy tests that could be done on steel plates, i.e. the "water drop test" and the "copper sulfate test." Both kind of go/no go tests with some level of industry acceptance
I believe that you already know what the end of the story will be with Finish Line Halo...they relied on the standards-based testing only, they took the best result they saw, then they marketed the sh*t out of if. The results that you saw with your testing along with the preliminary results you learned from Perdue Univ. and the fact that Finish Line is now ghosting you tells me all I need to know. Next please...
yeah still this one is fascinating to me as it is a big, big brand with a big headline product, going hard and so they will likely have overall excellent market penetration. And with that we have nuts wear rate from test which is of great concern to me re cyclist outcome, and also the marketing claims - wow wow wow it would great to understand their headline claims around spherical tungsten as we are still very much at the claims as stated are simply impossible, and impossible due to very simple physics and logic around particle size and pressures. The claims are literally nonsensical. Even if the reality was the product was extremely high performing, even if it turned out in all testing it was the lowest friction lowest wear product ever- still the actual marketing claims around micron sized hollow tungsten spheres would remain non sensical and literally impossible.
Its a fascinating ongoing product investigation this one...
How about a test on Absolute Black Graphene lube? As used by the main man Tadej (apparently).
yes, please!
Hey stephen! i tested graphenlube for AB but this is locked up still under NDA, which is sort of nonsensical as it was overall a great result, it is a great product, just really its expense and must apply immersive initially (which will literally cost you like $50) makes this a very niche product in my opinion vs say UFO that all you have to do is apply more frequently. Graphen lube is a top choice for very long events as it has outstanding treatment longevity, so very long , harsh A priority races - it is a great choice if one can afford it - but otherwise......
Anyhoo since my detail review would not have included a bunch of stuff from AB that i severely disagreed with (i wont go into it but suffice to say, i would never accept a test for them again) - we could not get agreement and so no open results / review. It is far, far to small a niche product for me to allocate the resources to re test on my own volition as an open test (i did do for single application longevity however) - there is just so much other much higher priority testing to try to get to.
So in short, its great, but for day to day re lubing - way to expensive, and even for most racing - you dont need that level of longevity, and for the few races it will come in handy, there are also other options like REx BD 4+1 mix wax at a fraction of the price for a treatment.
What do you recommend for a decent 12 speed chain for a Trek Roscoe 7? Don't mind paying a few bucks but not looking to break the Bank as well. Thanks
Check system compatibility but overall sram eagle x01 - extremely long lasting chain at a good price point
Silca's cleaning products change colour as they process grease ... Might be a useful ingredient in there to detect grease?
There is no doubt the products are absorbing grease, so them changing colour is expected, it is are they leaving any grease behind. Especially multiple chains per 200ml etc as they claim to be able to do, so the chain is what i really need detection agent on.
@@zerofrictioncycling992 sorry I meant maybe if silca can give you details on their colour changing ingredient it might help you find something useful for your requirements
@@zerofrictioncycling992 I think they point out this process might be used to detect grease as well. However, I think the supposed colour change is more to do with the foam turning back into liquid, rather than a sophisticated chemical process. I suspect it's basically a built in timer rather than a true indicator of it's work being done.
Video seems to be flickering slightly... Assuming not running wirelessly it could be a loose or faulty cable? (Would also affect audio).
I think it's just the camera adjusting the auto-brightness. It seems to change with hand movements.
@@aarons1073 aah ok.
yep sorry the camera seems to be trying to adjust, i turned off auto adjust last week but it must have turned itself back on! sorry will try to remember to check that next time, i just thought it would have stayed off this week.... sigh.... tech stuff.....
I now just lay the face of my phone down. My wife thinks I’m having an affair with Adam.