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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ม.ค. 2025
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🔴Discord: / discord
🔴Twitter: _TheGoodVibes_
🔴Steam: steamcommunity.com/id/GREED-YT/
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BASED AF! good video as always :3 ♥
Thank you my wife
wtf is this channel bro💀
???
halal way @@GREED_EU
Even with rivals being the new scene, I love how the true ow heads are still taking time out of the day to talk about how terrible ow is.
Shit game
Dude I was totally a marvel rivals hater before it dropped and I played it, and playing it made me realise just how fked ow really is and that's why they're all talking about it because marvel rivals legitimately justifies everything we've all been saying for ages, like most never spoke about stuff like what greeds saying here before because you had no evidence of it feeling better but every hero design follows the rules of skill curve balance so well, than you have heros like moira in ow who are completely comprised of auto aim and get out if jail free cards 😂
Plus the flanks are actually allowed to be good in marvel rivals so I wanna see people bring up how well marvel rivals fixed ows issues because it honestly fixed over 50% of the issues in ow in their season 0 lmao, ow is 8 years overdue for this criticism and I want people to really rub it in their face.
@@shawngorski9714 Mate fuck ow but Rivals hasn't learnt shit from it, it's falling into all the same problems OW1 had and slowly fixed over 8 years, yes it doesn't have no-skill heroes but that doesn't mean the hero design is better, kits are bloated and mostly not very well thought out and a lot of ultimates are generally quite uninteresting, also the map design is terrible
@@shawngorski9714 > Plus the flanks are actually allowed to be good in marvel rivals
Let's hope they keep it that way lol. I'm already seeing people calling to nerf the flankers like Psylocke/ Iron Fist/ Spiderman/ Black Panther. Even though they're not particularly hard to counter
@musicianoffailure-3804 last flank they added was doomfist, who is now a tank which makes it sombra... that was 8 bloody years ago! It's crazy that they not only treat the flanks they do have like garbage but they never add any new ones, and than people wonder why this games always inna sustain meta! Maybe because we don't got enough options to deal with all the crazy busted bs they've added to the backlines 😂
How tf do I shoot an illari turret 25m above the ground hidden inna corner on the other side of the choke when my options are a ninja with a single dash who's countered by half the game now (seriously to many thing go through his deflect now to reliably use it ever), tracer who can't even tickle something at 15m and sombra who is the only real decent choice but she's never allowed to be good for long because like moira, she's comprised of an entire kit of obnoxious abilities so they can never shift her power inna way to balance her..
So I already think marvel rivals won't have this issue, I mean what're they gonna do? Make half their game bad? Half the games already flanky, Spiderman can clear entire maps no sweat and hulks got unlimited movement as well as iron man, you can't just change that, flanks are baked into this games very core and I couldn't be happier about it lol
@@shawngorski9714 Venture?...
Supports tend to have this issue most because they've basically weaseled their way into being the dps while still having insane value via support tools and abilities. iliari being a prime example, they literally gave her a dps ult and auto healing turret so she could focus on being dps.
Illaris risk is her limit heals, both in range and resources and making your other supp need to be more aware of what Illari is doing. Plus her ult typically puts her in risky positions (flying in open air) with a bright ass icon and a massive projectile that can be blocked by shields, matrix/grasp/deflect, and LOS and cleanse. By design she is a very high risk hero especially if your other supp or pylon get deleted.
@@Eezeecheese also the fact that her damage is not a burst, people talks about her as if she was a second ashe but the truth is her shots are way too slow to even punish people for being away from cover sometimes
Honestly kiriko is the best example for this analogy she has high heal rates and mobility that paired with her damage. This doesnt even include the bullshit ability of zuzu then all of this combined with her ult just makes a dumb all rounder hero with little to no negatives
@@gorge6885 kiriko needs to be in risky positions where she cannot consisntently heal or she gets dived in order to do meaningfull damage and get kills, as she needs to keep tracking the healing target, bap on the other hand can do both healing and damage at the same time through quick flicking , the only reason why his numbers tend to be on pair with other supports its 5v5 and everybody being scattered around, on top of that he is a hitscan, if you want to call suzu a bullshit ability thats fine but then iceblock, fade and widow oneshot have to go as well
on top of that is damage and kills that carry games, not healing, i would gladly have healing reduced but that wont happen because god forbid dps players use cover stop hiding behind the tank, and learn to actually play the game instead of being given the win by clicking heads
@gorge6885 True. Clowns will say this is biased but kiri has so many "get out of jail" cards that its insulting. Where's a zen among kiris when you need em
Kunai thrown by a noodle armed girl have zero damage fall off while a bullet shot by a revolver has, make it make sense
Did you try to hit something with the kunai?
Yeah, thats how projectile vs hitscan works and SHOULD work in order to be balanced. Hitting Consistent shots with projectiles at range is harder
@@Melodik10 woosh
Well one came from a girly girl girl and the other one was from a man, and one is much more marketable to the gooner bottom feeding freaks than the other
@@Melodik10unless the projectile has the size of a Christmas tree
Hold on, this isn't Khan Academy!
empowered punch is also the reason everyone hates going against doomfist. Nothing like having your agency taken away from you because another teammate shot at his block and then got punched by him and you happened to be around a corner from them.
As a tank, try Orissa or Hog and knock him out of his block.
As a support, try ana and knock him out of his block.
As a DPS, try a flier and you have almost never issues.
You can take agency yourself. But you need to act yourself, not expect your teammates to play perfect.
@@makkert NO just no...
Same applies for Zarya bubbles someone in your team is always shooting them without killing her and then you get deleted in 2 seconds because she's fully charged. Both characters are taking advantage of an enemy's error
@@FisterTm strong argument 😂
@@makkert you gotta be trolling ong
Kiriko needs to have the same health as a tracer, it still doesn't help her 3 get out of jail free cards, but at least it's more possible to get burst and spammed out
sure, give swift step the same cooldown and free mobility than blink then, sounds fun
@@KCrucisYour a Kiri crutch or misunderstood what he said?
@@iProphetGG oh i understood what he said, which is ridiculous considering kiriko by no means has similar mobility to tracer
the rivers some dps players cry when support characters are not brakground npcs is funny
and no, i flex roles and characters, sig-rein (now hazzard) ashe-reaper-mei-tracer kiri-bap-ana player
@@KCrucis your right kiri doesn't have similar mobility. she has significantly better mobility than tracer its a tp from a long distance threw walls. And she can give herself and teammates I-frames, big heals, and cure status effects all with one button. although the kuni is projectile (which is harder to hit) it has a lot longer range than tracer and hits a lot harder. The final cherry on top being the ult which is one of the best in the game basically giving everything a massive speed boost for you and your team (faster weapon fire rate, shorter ability cooldowns, and a speed boost).
@@davidmccall4024 hu? are you smoking?
1) swift step cannot be used to be agresive like blink
2) swift step is in a huge cooldown compared to blink
3) tracer has recall, an ability as powerfull as suzu, if not more because its also a repositioning tool, easier to use and activate with the exception of not being able to be used on others
4) tracers with decent tracking can still one clip mobility characters like lucio
pretty convinient you mention going tp goin through walls but not the fact that it depends on teamate positioning unlike tracer, who has actual mobility
are you ok? who put this opinion in your head?
What's always pissed me off about OW is that the devs make changes as if they are writing with a pen and not a pencil.
Oh, goats is a problem? Let's just nuke play styles by adding role queue instead of, I don't know, trying anything else.
Oh, this character is a problem? Let's add a new character that "solves" it instead of fixing it.
The devs aren't innocent angels, they kept screwing up and OW suffered for it.
Anyways I'm off to airblast heavies off of Upwards while I wait for the gang to get around to play Rivals.
Role queue makes balancing a lot easier and creates more cohesive teams with random players.
@@sevret313Counterpoint, it’s fucking lame
@sevret313 if it made balancing easier then ow2 should be remotely well balanced, no? That aside, role queuing also loses something interesting that old ow and marvel rivals has in common which is more flexibility in team setup, as well as a little more freedom in switching. The 1-4-1 not working since a dps is doing bad? The dps and switch to strategist to heal in a 1-3-2 situation. Hell, there's even viability in a 3 tank or 3 healer team comp in some cases. You don't get that in ow2
@@sevret313 The problem here is that you're babysitting your players because they aren't doing what's best for the team. I say let them run 5 dps and a tank, they'll lose and that's fine, eventually they'll realize they're being a bit selfish and might shake things up a little.
@@just-linx8271 *sigh*
They should've never touched Doom, his block is boring as hell to play with or against. Get rid of his stupid block and give him his uppercut back
He's a tank, his block is to shield. It should use a health pool rather than a set time though, same for hazard.
Doom should probably get another movement ability but upper cut was removed for a reason.
Also I don't know why they just made dooms block better and gave it to hazard.
I'd like Doom to have a few changes:
1. Replace some of his health with shields. Similar to Ball, makes him more independent on flanks but not strictly any more durable like giving armor or something would do.
2. Change power block, from a frontal damage resist, to a small barrier, with maybe 150 health or so and a shorter cooldown, it could block some of his biggest counters (sleep dart, hook, etc) but also significantly diminish his durability to multiple sources of damage. Breaking the barrier would empower his punch just like blocking does now, it would just be slightly harder to charge yet be less punishing if the cooldown is wasted.
One thing I hate about doom is that his value changes wildly on the enemy team comp. If you don’t have someone like Ana cas or sombra he can roll the lobby getting insane value. But when the enemies change to the hard counter cc characters he becomes practically useless. He is the most jarring example of this which I don’t like as it makes it feel like no one can play the characters they want to in the match.
You have to counter doom, doom wants to swap, and his support might have to swap to characters with insane sustain like kiri or bap to keep him from falling over. I can’t wait to see 6v6 with tank Doomfist as the second tank will counteract a lot of these major flaws.
hope they make him dps again in 6v6 icl
@@whippa_definitely in a future classic update he will be in his dps state. Next are moth and goats. Idk when he was added but he is probably in at least one of those
@BigPro1123He was around for both, so he’s gotta show up for sure
Doom in 6v6 isn’t crazy because you can ignore him and shoot the other tank. No empowered punch
Genji is honestly one of the last heroes who represents Overwatch old philosophy: Greater risk = greater rewards.
Genji is all about risking himself in order to secure a kill. There’s never a moment where your guaranteed a kill as Genji unless your good at him. Genji gets countered so easily that at this point there’s honestly no reward, just risk.
Overwatch used to be about dynamic gameplay where you put yourself in danger but could reap huge rewards. Now it’s just invincibility, cleanse, over-tuned supports who can do it all, DPS tanks, massive health pools, un-punishable movement, etc.
That was the reason I loved Genji and why I hate Overwatch. I’ve switched to Rivals since its release and honestly, I don’t see myself going back soon unless the devs make serious changes, and I’m not talking about 6v6.
Yeah they murdered the design philosophy of the entire game with OW2. Losing 1 tank was bad enough but when you remove the depth of hero interactions and player agency it's just a recipe for failure. Nobody that really enjoyed OW1 enjoys OW2 the same, it's not the game we paid for or played for years. This is counter watch where your picks matter more than your plays.
Mind me asking which characters you're currently enjoying in MR?
I remember years ago when I saw Genji get nerfed and Hanzo get buffed, I felt the writing on the wall, it all went downhill from there
What ? Wdym last heroe ? lol, he’s part of the cast since release.
@ I mean in the sense that nearly every hero pre-OW2 and new hero have been watered down to a simplistic gameplay loop that isn’t engaging and relies more on the character’s busted or sometimes situational abilities rather than your actual skill at the video game, unlike Genji.
sombra is awful for the game. I'll say it. she's become a crutch for players who can't play the game by making others unable to play the game. Same with torb, kiri, lifeweaver pull, etc
I have the exact opposite opinion about old sombra. She is a skill check that punishes bad players who can't mark her for literally 1 damage
@psych0536 new sombra goes completely invisible with a cleanse now
@@spry9953 almost like they were talking about old sombra
ok if torb makes you unable to play the game.... uh i dont know how to help you
Nah speak for urself, we love heroes like this. Especially since they completely shit on weak mentals like you. I thoroughly enjoy the thought that someone outside of myself thinks they are entitled to fun when I'm in the game. Like, saying I love watching my enemies suffer is an understatement. And if anyone feels the same towards me, respect. I welcome the cerebral challenge; I don't cry about it.
14:50 ironic how YEARS of good balancing, can get toppled like a house of cards, by one badly-designed character
There’s two kinds of skill floors:
1. Required Skill Floor: you cannot even function without meeting the skill requirements. Think Doomfist like Greed used for his example or Widowmaker missing all her shots.
2. Minimum Skill Floor: even with 0 skill put in from the player, this hero puts out X value by default. Think of Moira, she can spam all abilities down main with no thought and still get some value.
Point is, I like making this distinction so it’s clear what we are talking about. If something has a high skill floor, does that mean in the sense like Doom where you need to meet this minimal skill to even play the character, or like Moira who also has a high skill floor but in the sense that no lack of skill could cause you to fall below this threshold. I think it’s important for clarity but it’s also just interesting to think about.
You just made all of this “distinction” up to sound smart. Skill floor by the basically unanimously accepted definition is the minimum requirement to achieve any kind of value. A low skill floor means that the character is so easy to pick up that you can’t possibly go under their skill floor without just not knowing the piece of technology you’re using altogether. High skill floor means that the difficulty to even get some value out of the character is so high that you basically should never play the character without putting in some decent training. There’s no alternate meanings for low and high skill floors. The example you used in your conclusion to try and explain why Moira has a high skill floor was quite literally you just making up a new way to say low skill floor because skill floor at its core means “barrier to entry”.
TL;DR: You just pulled a “could/couldn’t care less” mixup.
@@Watermelon_Man*I'm not reading all of that*
@@Jahito_EBT tell me you're a moron with a short attention span who can't fathom more than 100 words in a text in a short amount of time.
Moira doesn’t have a high skill floor what are you talking about ?
@akpade *he means you gotta put in low effort for high value, he ain't word it right*
Doomfist: I have EMP
Sombra: EMP is ready
Doomfist:Noooooo
Orisa is THE posterchild for skill floor and ceiling being nearly the same and the risk never has to rise because her maximum value comes from sitting there and just pressing the next button thats come online
I stopped caring about Overwatch years ago, but, I’m sure the devs stopped even before me.
the problem of the game is literally EVERY support. Every tank has to jump into 5, survive and disrupt for basicaly no-existing value (even worse if your DPS are dumb ones) meanwhile the supports just press no skill, no risk and no cooldown button and ruins EVERY SINGLE TANK. it ALWAYS a granade, always a suzu, always a life grip, always the random lamp. Every support has the boring button to ruin the game and all blizzard does is adjust numbers on tanks as if it would change something
I wouldn't say every support since Mercy, Lucio and dare I say...the current Brigitte (She's only use when supports like Ana, Kiri or Juno is a meta in OW2 5v5.) These 3 are the only support I can think of that their only actual no shit button is their ult and how you position yourself...I never thought I would see the day where Brigitte of all things are not the broken support. Moira is also just more of a weird use case since her full value is against the lower spectrum on the game's rank but she gains almost no value once you reach a certain spectrum of the game's rank.
Lucio, Zen, Moira, Brig, and Juno(Debatable) are all fine supports, and don't have game-breaking abilities on cooldowns like almost all the other supports. They all have a good balance of risk/reward; Zenyatta for instance has no mobility, no crowd control, low healing, and no self-heal or other defensive ability outside of his ult. But these are all balanced out by his high aim-dependant damage and effective use of discord orb to mark and single out targets.
the summary of my problem with overwatch 2 is that these days i lock winston, dominate the first team fight because im better, and then the enemy team full counterswaps to hog/mauga, bastion, reaper, moira/kiri/mercy or other similar very hard to dive/anti dive heroes. after that i still generally outplay and win, but its fucking MISERABLE. its so unfun to have to bait out 10 cooldowns that kill me instantly or make my target unkillable that i would prefer to just swap or leave the game than play it out. i physically cannot have fun on the heroes i want to play for more than 1 teamfight per game, because the enemy team just swaps to the heroes that deny my value for free
This is why 6v6 was better in this aspect, tank counterswapping was less of an issue…
The reason a Lucio can get away with taking more risky plays is because he has a lot of sustain and can generally make himself difficult to shoot.
I guess it depends on what we mean by risk, because there's risk for placing yourself at angles where the enemy can shoot you easily/positioning away from the rest of your team and risk for "is this the right play?". They're both being referred to as the same thing, but the latter I'd refer to as opportunity cost.
The reason the distinction is important is that if you say you want support to have to place themselves in danger more to get the value they do now, then you're essentially deleting the role. Even in the low ranks everyone understands that you focus the supports first. Getting value without having the entire enemy team left click you off of the map is a huge part of the learning curve of playing support. If you mean they need to be able to do less at the same time, like in your Kiriko example, then that makes a bit more sense. I'm not entirely sure what a solution would look like, though, really.
I was in there playing for 3 hours yesterday
OW design peaked with wrecking ball. Say what you want about the rest of OW but it's genuinely impressive how unique, dynamic and outside the box his kit design is.
I like Winston too
deceptively simple but jump pack has a lot of nuance that requires super niche cases to use and optimize
He is so unique that people don't even recognize him on the roster and still think Doomfist or Genji or Tracer is the hardest hero, as if Ball isn't the pinnacle of "gargantuan risk demanding perfect play; minimal reward"
You should just play Monkey Ball and you'd have a way more entertaining time lmao
@@SuperMarioMan1N I've played SMB 1 and 2 on the GameCube. Apples and oranges. Wrecking ball is still a well designed character.
Agree except for his giga-buffed ult that gives free kills from one drop CC. The rest of his kit is perfect but they made his ult brain dead in OW2
6:36 The slander against Doom's Emp Punch must spread. Please delete Block/Emp and bring back Uppercut.
Thanks. Looking forward to 6v6 today.
Update: 6v6 is extremely ass with Doomfist. He has only received a multitude of downsides, with no upsides. People are arguing that Doom + Zarya is fun, but that's 1/12 chance relying on the random stranger. Winston, DVa, Hazard, and Ball can all coordinate at his pace of play, so that's 5/12 for an alright game (1/12 for a great game), and 7/12 for a terrible game that is a significantly worse experience than 5v5.
Does that mean we stay with 5v5? No.
Quick queue times and really fun games for DPS and Support.
The fact is that Doomfist's rework is exclusive to 5v5 and should be reverted in any case of a return to 6v6.
Fr he only got 50 hp more but increased slam and block cooldown, also got nerfed the block time that just doesn't work on a hero that relies that much on is cd
In lower ranks/quick play, playing Moira is like cruising down a highway with the windows on a sunny day
In higher ranks, playing Moira is like being a schizophrenic helicopter pilot flying through a hurricane of immortality abilities, anti heals, and sniper fire while the dps passive and hp nerf are constantly ringing in your ears
love the comment but its moria, you hold a button to aim...should be that way if she's even allowed to participate in first place.
Important thing that was not mentioned in this video was how this dynamic affects counters and counter picking. If you have a character like Moira or Kiriko and you need to counter them but all the options have a way higher skill ceiling like widowmaker or doom. At that point it cant end up just being a gg go next situation.
Blizzard's whole MO now is "What's cool?" They have no concept of balance or give and take, let alone what role their kit fills within the established roster, ie fun to play with AND against. Venture, Mauga, and Juno are prime examples. They're just dumping huge and overbearing kits into new heroes as sales pitches rather than to make good gameplay.
As a top 500 genji onetrick I'm switching to rivals
you wont long term lol trust me.
@@AegisEdge and who are you
Yeah right, because the hero design there is sooOoOO much better... please.
@@bichitomaxcomparing Black panther and genji… yes. And by lightyears.
@@bichitomax Yes it is lol
Thank you! It always pisses me off when people call OW a great game or well balanced when at a basic level, they screwed up their hero design. This is the reason why getting Marvel Rivals player counts will be impossible for OW because there's a lot of problems to fix
At this point I don't believe into overwatch dev team. Though I might disagree on some of the points made on Doom in this vid, I do see the logic behind them. On the other hand overwatch dev team points (read as patchnotes) don't make any sense to me, two latest patchnotes are just awful.
Risk being low pretty much drags the skill ceiling down.
Its not hard to “play correctly” if i can do it with very little pressure.
Hey! Wifeleaver’s healing can be fun! >:(
Great video! Your points have made a lot of sense, and it is kinda sad that it is indeed true. Heroes that are usually frustrating to play against are the heroes that usually have low amounts of risks like Orisa, and the heroes are fun to play against usually have lots of risk like Reinhardt.
I do not think we’ll ever get to the point where most heroes have high risk and high reward, but I do see a world where risk could be scaled up a bit, increasing the skill ceiling and reward.
Greeds writing is so scuffed
If he’s doing this shit on a mouse I find it annoying af to write with a mouse
Na its beautiful you just cant see it because damaged eyesight from 1 quintillion ranked hours smh my head ;)
/s
Honestly I think another great example is wrecking ball. If you play ball at the absolute ceiling you are constantly in your opponents face. To do this and bot basically explode you have to constantly engage from different angles or even set up minutes in advance. That being said
If the opponent goes brig, the backline doesnt die because balls damage is ass, if the opponent goes kiriko his big pile drivers just get nullified, if the opponent plays hog or sombra then he is basically gone from the game.
And ball has 0 ways to really outplay his counters, and thats not including body blocking, melee (it gets rid of fire ball), minefield.
Minefield requires set up and could have really big pay off...if the supports couldnt just simply go over it. Almost every support has a near guaranteed way of evading minefield and thats also not counting shields, winston zap, just generally large healthbars.
Ball requires a lot of risk and skill but to get any value you have to basically gamble that the opponent actually lets you play the game.
Though there’s still a lot of bad hero design for ball. Really any “game for me but not for thee” hero design sucks the soul out of the game, and it’s pretty funny that every counter for ball has to be as annoying as him to be viable against him.
@LazerDisk oddly enough towards the end of overwatches life time 2020/2021 ball was pretty good and the game was pretty healthy at the time.
Honeslty what I'd like to see is reducing balls health and armor but adaptive shield gives like a full second of cc immunity when its used. Giving ball the ability to possibly outplay cc while also giving the player an easier time to kill ball when he does get caught.
a lot of the riskier characters just have to take up the role of ability sponge just because the new characters are so overtuned
@@hooparainbowbraceypkmonand7862 maybe adaptive shield is constantly active, with its amount multiplying or dividing based on how many people are around. It can't be healed but can be regenerated over time, and while it's active, he's almost fully immune to all CC (slows down speed but has no other effect like knockback or stun), but when it's inactive, he's locked out of ball form, forcing him to commit. A skillful ball would manage his shield, go for the right plays, and avoid getting his shields fully knocked down while the enemy has to counterplay by shooting him, taking skill rather than an ability on or off cooldown.
Saying it takes no skill to get empowered punch is nonsense unless you're playing in silver. Smart opponents won't just give you emp for free, you need to block at opportune moments, otherwise you will get ignored and provide no value at all.
I stopped listening when he said that
I'm a mid doom in plat and they don't even give me free charge here lol
I haven't played the game in like 8 months but even in low masters they were still just lobbing soj ball down lanes and spamming chokes it's free punch on cooldown if you have a little bit of sense, most of your initial charge comes from ability damage as you get higher rank, theyll usually let you get another empowered to either get out or keep feeding. This coming from someone who loved doom in OW1 and OW2 was the only tank I really liked.
This whole video scream I am hardstuck in Silver and roadhog is OP :(
Man, just look at your graph at 1:48. You might have a point in this video, but can't put it in and graph that does not make sense
As a Doom Enjoyer
Take The pinchbot gimmick out and revert him to beta ow2 where his skill actually mattered and was fun to play against
Oh. And give bro a uppercut
Blizzard needs to hire Greed to be a guest lecturer for the OW balance and hero design teams
If Blizzars should hire someone my vote goes to the streamer known as Flats.
What's crazy is the overwatch devs have said they took inspiration from TF2 when making the game, yet they completely ignored all the game balancing lessons that TF2 spent years figuring out. For example, demo in TF2 used to have grenades that exploded on contact with a player even after bouncing, this was removed because it rewarded spam, then overwatch comes out and junkrat has grenades that explode on contact after bouncing, has infinite ammo, AND no self damage.
Make it make sense
I wish they would balance tf2 again, I hate using the tomislav when there’s literally a minimum that shoots flames around the heavy
Skill Floor is the starting point you can never be below it, Neither Skill Ceiling you can't be above as that defeats the purpose.
So a character with a High Skill Floor and a High Skill Ceiling would translate to one that is easy to pick up but hard to master.
The longer the lenght of the bar the more there is to learn.
finally someone pointed this out AFTER 7 YEARS
Tank is my theoretical favorite role, I get to fight everyone and play on the objective, lead the team. In practice, it's becoming my least favorite because I always feel obligated to counter swap, and if I'm ever unlucky enough to be on defense and the enemy team just happens to come out on 3 hard counters, I just lost the dice roll and I'm now at a disadvantage. There's no back up tank to save me.
As a casual Hanzo fan player I would swap a Storm arrows for something like movespeed boost to be able to switch angles faster. For me it would be even more organic on that character than the ability to suddenly shoot a ton of arrows in 1 second while usualy charging up one arrow like its some kind of sport festival. For Genji - I agree that he is in a bad state, but his deflect with its hitbox's size of a train that could gather all shots and focus in desired pixel is some kind of joke, IMO. In total you are 100% right about everything, its so annoying that Bliz cannot do some kind of brave gamechanging patch.
Skill floor is a bit different to what you describe. Just as how a skill ceiling is the maximum potential you can achieve in a hero, skill floor is the minimum value you have (meaning being afk or doing nothing). So an example is Lucio will have the highest skill floor because his passive aura has 100% so you will always be applying the buff even if you do not want to be. Widow is kind of a good example too as her threat of 1-shot means players need to act differently knowing she has the potential to kill you.
No one uses it like this an a Widow afk or doing nothing will not even be noticed so no value.
These X and Y axis mixups were angering my brain but I understood what you meant to put. I hope others interpret what you meant to put correctly also. You explained what you meant throughly so they should have been able to fix the axis in their head
I always thought skill floor means the guaranteed value you get no matter how bad the player is. Like anyone can pick Orisa, just blindly cycle her abilities, and get tons of value.
"Suffer as I has" Ramattra as he meets Kiriko Sombra Doomfist Moira Junkrat compteam
Tracer have low risk when playing against bad players in general. Like simple strafe and shooting in the direction of the enemy can kill half of the team in low ranks because people cant hit tracer
Henri literally brought me back to overwatch after trying rivals. He is easily the single most satisfying hero in any game I’ve ever played, when you are good enough. The reads to deflect, the dash resets or little tech to animation cancel for good damage, or even just the stars being rewarding for good aim. Nothings like him
S, C, man sliding down a slide holding a foot long hot dog
*casually continues watching*
great video, I talk about this all the time with friends. Overwatch characters feel super mindless and you get insane value with minimal effort. Why aim, try and land abilities with Ana when you can play Kiriko auto heal, spam kunais in the general direction, teleport out of bad positioning, use Suzu to help the team not get punished, etc. You are not rewarded for skill like you should and many Hero's can give you value regardless if your plat or gm. This also forces you to play around relying on abilities rather than skill. Tracer is the best character design hands down.
rein, genji, ana, are all a part of that classic best - designed archetype that I think about a lot these days
they're all strong but have weaknesses and require a lot of decision making to do well
there's more but that's the three I think about
none of the ow 2 fit in that category
@@NonJohns Tbh, I think Ana's nade is overtuned when she was release since she should not have a 100% anti heal as an ability and instead it should've been 25% anti heal...other than that she is fine.
I'd argue that with a higher skill ceiling the risk involved naturally decreases. If you get better with a character you also get better at playing around the weaknesses.
The problem, for me, is more that decreasing the risk with some heroes is just not as much influenced by skill as it is with others. You should work to decrease the risk just as much as you work for increasing the value. Hitting headshots consistently with Kiriko is levels more difficult than throwing down a Suzu and/or teleporting away.
That it’s true but the hero still HAD that level of risk, it’s just that the players at the skill ceiling are just good at mitigating it, not getting rid of it.
As a TF2 player that has never touched Overwatch, I agree
I just love how my DPS/Duelist/THE LETHAL GUY character kit is so lethal that he can roll and throw a short-range flashbang. Truly awesome design.
i think that the risk value scores should be comensorate with the skill, but each character doesnt need to be low skill floor high skill ceiling
FINALLY someone is talking about this. I describe it as "skill to value" ratio and even break it down for individual abilities. It is my belief that the skill to value ratio should be as close as possible across the cast; meaning that so called "easy" heroes should NOT exist. An "easy" hero describes more than anything else something that requires little skill but gets a great amount of value. The more difficult something is (and/or the more risk it requires), the more value it gets. Period. No "easy" heroes should exist, and no high passive value abilities should exist at any point.
If you look at even super low ranked bronze games, these players WANT to play things like: Ana, Widow, Hanzo, Genji, etc. which have too high of a skill floor to get enough value to justify the pick. So imagine that ALL heroes are like these... now it changes the relative skill floor. If NO ONE in those ranks can get full value, it doesn't matter. You can pick the hero you want to learn and you aren't either accused of "throwing" games for choosing a more difficult hero.
With the skill to value ratio even across the cast, this is the ONLY way to balance across different tiers. The alternative is either the "easy" hero is viable at higher ranks, boring the best players and causing them to dominate at lower ranks, OR the "easy" hero is not viable at the higher ranks and players fall into traps by learning them... meaning they have to lose a ton of rank to learn a new hero which means the average player will just quit.
With all of that said, there are different kinds of "skill" beyond mechanical aim, and designing abilities with counter play in mind does wonders. Reinhardt is a great example for a number of reasons. Each one of his abilities would counter another, meaning the mirror match is enjoyable. Look at the interaction between his shield and the original flash bang; by predicting what the opponent will or won't do you have multiple ways to outplay them. Lastly, making an ability able to be heavily punished (aka adding inherent risk) is a fantastic way to add counter play; the original version of charge is a excellent example of this concept.
I mean, they are cooked with Marvel Rivals at this point, but better late than never to finally get to flush out these problems. This and "the team based game we queue for solo" were my two original complaints about OW1 at launch.
I silently pray that the Lucio doesn't dive me on Widow. If I catch him soon enough, I can kill him but, if he gets the drop on me, I'm f'ed. His hitbox is an amorphous blob.
As a Genji man I'm so glad you brought him up it's part of the reason I stopped playing this game. I got tired of my favorite being screwed over because they continued to Nerf or leave him in a bad place, and buff all his counters or just any character in the game with a general low skill floor (Mei, Moira, Torb, etc...). His risk to reward was so skewed that I could switch to heroes I don't play and potentially provide more or similar value with way less effort. Accesability for people who arent as skilled is fine and all, but when characters with such a low point of entry easily provide similar value to some of the hardest characters in the game youve messed up, and designing heroes who just inherently have high value low risk exacerbates the issue.
I swear the devs just nerf anyone that they personally dont like and buff characters that they crutch on.
2:29 I’ve only watched to this point, but I don’t like how this is represented. Firstly, reaching the skill ceiling is done by lowering risk and utilizing as much of your potential value as possible. You could argue that taking the aggressive angle is a maximized skill ceiling moment, but that’s not inherently true as timing is very important. Therefore, your risk factor should really be as low as possible while still having your potential impact be used as much as possible. This is nuanced, though, and I understand that the point of this video is to comment on how some heroes naturally have very low risk / skill expression even when existing and getting good value (like Moira, who you can just beam people with and win duels and make it to like gold or platinum with). Just felt like pointing out that out
Absolutely true. But if you want to get maximum value at a heroes skill ceiling, there is inherently more risk because you likely are achieving higher up time. It's why Tracer is so well designed. There is no Value, without risk, and it's why Widow is so awful, there is lots of value, but minimal risk.
@@GREED_EUI see what you mean. I agree with most of your points, but I’d argue that at maximum skill ceiling, your risk should be towards the lower 50% depending on the hero. Bronze level positioning is almost always riskier than top 500 level positioning. Mercy is a good example, a sizable portion of her skill comes from safe positioning. Again, this is kind of nuanced, so I don’t think it really impacts your whole point, but it probably changes some things
You have absolutely NO idea how much was I happy for someone else to say how disgustingly low risk high reward Moira is.
As a former Gundam Evolution player, EMP sounds like it has most of the problems of Melee Zaku. M-Z has a move called Defy where he stands still and becomes completely invincible -- can't be shot, immune to grapples, tanks every ult, just invincible. Tanking damage with Defy supercharges M-Z's Rage meter (M-Z can also charge rage meter by dealing damage) which buffed all of his abilities and gave him a bunch of free armor (ablative hit points).
This was notoriously unfun. Newbs on one team could super buff an enemy M-Z and then the newb's whole team suffers for it. But veterans know the counter to M-Z, which is just to ignore him. The winning move is not to play the game, it just wasn't a fun character for either team
Everyone hated dive but it was a high risk, high reward playstyle that required so much coordination and mechanical skill to execute properly.
Tracer, Reinhardt, Winston, Lucio, and Mercy were literally what they used to build the game.
But they strayed away from that design philosophy and it was like a poison that slowly drained the game of its identity.
@@MexicanUppercuts who hated dive?
@@GREED_EU I vaguely remember the general player base complaining that dive had gotten stale or boring to watch around end of 2017-2018.
I might be misremembering things though. It was before Brig came out.
Doomfist should still be a dps.
Doom is a good tank in 6v6.
unpopular opinion, but we need this hero design's variety. I want engaging gameplay loops that feel nice and smooth to play. Some people prefer staying safe while still bringing value to the team, others like to help by being a thorn to the enemy team, and overwatch has a hero for everyone. your complaint is "some heroes are annoying to play against, and have it too easy", but by this logic they should have insane winrates, and yet, they dont.
They don't have insane win rates because the people who play them are awful. Go into a diamond lobby and look at the skill difference between a DPS player there, and a support player there. The support players are WAYYYYY worse, because the role they play is extremely easy and babied. Just like how tank has been in 5v5 with the super tanks
@@GREED_EU its insane how kiriko just counters tracer directly. teammate getting dived? tp to him, make him invincible then spam your massive dmg projectiles at the tracer mindlessly until her head hits the massive hitbox. kirikos poke is also insane, no dmg fall off and comparable to zen. kiriko, lw need to go. juno is a good step forward imo, easy to kill, low dps / medium heals, good abilities. im still a diehard ana main and tracer/genji main on dps but its insane how fucked i get when i play just by a kiriko mindlessly firing shots off at me. it feels like her shots are 10x easier to hit than for example zens balls for some reason. i really cant explain it.
its to the point where i find versing a cass 10x easier than versing a kiri as tracer
I once heard someone say they shouldn't make overwatch balance over casuals, and I was confused. You want it to be somewhat a accessible to play for the new players. Never knew the risk vs. value was THIS out of whack.
Imo, Lucio is THE greatest hero design in the game.
Using scales of 0-100
Skill Floor: 5
Skill Ceiling: 100
Risk Floor: 20
Risk Ceiling: 80
Floor Value: 50
Ceiling Value: 80
This hero is 100% skill based. He is basically just Tracer the support hero. He has to sacrifice options for other options just like you said.
He has an insane skill Ceiling but it GIVES more value but WAY higher risk. You also don't HAVE to go to his ceiling to even get his best value.
Just ranting:
I think we can't skip over the fact that as experienced or "good" players, we view the game vastly differently than the overwhelming majority of the community.
Tracer is a beloved and fair character. Tracer is also widely considered the hardest character in the game and has a has a middle of the road pick rate due to usually only being played by specialists. Widowmaker is a widely despised character despite her value being locked behind a high skill floor. Not only does nobody care about that at both the lower & higher elo bracket, she's still one of the most popular dps picks in the game across platform pools. Hell, when looking at the pick rates for all pools, we often see some of the most problematic or weakest characters in the top slot. Reinhardt has been no stranger to top 3 tanks despite being considered unplayable for god knows how long. Genji is virtually always in the top 2 despite his notorious reputation. So much of this simply doesn't make sense or align with the narratives we've studied in great detail.
Even in regards to your points about what is/isn't annoying or how to fix this by giving options, that's extremely subjective and I have no idea how you reached some conclusions. For example, we CANNOT just slide by the huge asterisks that is "Dying to a good hanzo doesn't typically annoy people." The game had an entire chapter of discourse regarding whether one shots should exists on characters like him, regardless of how hard he worked for it. I would like to imagine you're speaking in regards to the skilled (albeit it TINY) portion of the playerbase who can recognize the work of a skilled hanzo. Same goes for options, do we even have to guess what the response from the general community would be if we proposed giving tanks and supports even more options in terms of playstyles?
Depending on who you ask, the downfall of OW's hero design philosophy was when most characters were adjusted from their rather rigid roles with well defined strengths & weaknesses, to very flexible and self-sufficient heroes that...
A. Can be forced/otp'd significantly easier than in OW1.
B. Benefitted from the removal of most hard cc effectively killing off their hard counters.
Such consequences can be seen in the ow2 cast. The new additions to OW2 have been extremely self-sufficient characters with ridiculous flexibility. So many new additions are ridiculously safe blind picks, with the weakest newcomers being the most rigid (Lifeweaver, Venture). Venture in particular being interesting because they're considered one of the best designed & most fun characters we've had in a while!
I personally believe this to be the strongest explanation, and seeing the extremely positive reception to Overwatch Classic bringing back some of the most frustrating aspects of OW only reinforced this notion. I used to think that was a bit too circumstantial to be used for real data, but then Marvel Rivals came out and eclipsed OW despite being an unbalanced mess.
This has shown me that intricate (or even good) balance is not what motivates a community. In fact, most people use MR's lack of proper balancing as a counterpoint to why Overwatch failed. Which is admittedly funny as critique of Overwatch tends to flip from "It's balanced too poorly" & "it's balanced too competitively". Perhaps I have to take a look in the mirror and realize I've grown out of touch with a LOT of what the general playerbase cares about. Is it that they don't actually care about balance? Is it that the hero shooter genre as a whole is exempt from "good" balance? I truly don't know. I only know one thing for sure, I don't know wtf the community wants.
If you read this mess, I'd love your thoughts. Even if it's just to roast or tell me to learn to type less lol.
With the decision making at the end comparing Lucio and Kiri another way of putting it is that most character incur an opportunity cost when they make a decision, when kiri doesn't have to pay that same opportunity cost.
Either way good brief explanation.
Wait what? that's not what i thought a skill floor was, i thought it was how effective a hero is with a person at the lowest skill. In my version, a skill floor at 0 is as inaccessible as it gets, but here it means it's very accessible
I perhaps did not do a great job of articulating skill floor. A higher skill floor means lower accessibility because it requires a higher base skill to reach the minimum value. Think Tracer or Doomfist. But a low skill floor means that their minimum value is easier to access, so think Moira or Mercy
I spent 1k hrs learning wrecking ball just to get out played by suzu and Life Grip. Gg, go next, i guess.
One thing I would want to point out is that I think there is value in having heroes that are more viable/accessible at lower levels of play and by that virtue should not incur as much value, however, I don’t think Blizzard has that same philosophy. It seems like their ideal world is one such that every hero provides at minimum a certain amount of value at every stage of play, for the most part.
I think frustration mostly boils down to what tools exist in any given match and how players “dance” around it. There really isn’t any dynamic dance or interaction to a kirko suzu, she dictates the interaction.
The idea of a tutorial hero or two for each role seems like a good one for a hero shooter the problem is OW doesn't have enough characters to be devoting substantial percentages of their roster to that. Like Moira, mercy and kiriko all qualify as tutorial champs but that's what, a third of the entire support cast? You also can't be balancing these easy value characters like they're not easy to get value from but they're most definitely doing that on purpose. A video psycho-analyzing what blizz is /trying/ to do would be interesting I think, because it does go against what we might think of as "good game design" lol
I have always theorized that, paradoxically, the main reason why this is a problem in overwatch is because never, ever, has "fun" been the main priority of hero design, fun is a really easy way to know when a hero is fundamentally broken, it isn´t fun playing a broken character, and blizzard´s way of deciding upon reworking a character has always been to listen to what the top 500 players are complaining about balancing wise, and not what the community is having fun with, so they took the most fun and unique character they have ever designed, doomfist, and made him into a tank just so they wouldn´t have to actually go through the trouble of fixing their damn game properly, no wonder it is broken.
Most people are willing to sacrifice balance in the name of fun, most games we play are broke, marvel rivals is, just as if not more broken than overwatch right now, and with so many variables it is likely to stay that way, but guess what? people don´t care if it is actually fun.
I hate to tell you brother, but Blizzard has never listened to top 500 players, streamers, or pro players for balance. The game is notoriously balanced around the around the average player (gold).
The risk-reward has been gotten right by many other games... more specifically for my case: SMITE.
SMITE is an over-the-shoulder MOBA, and it has 5 classes of Heroes(or Gods, as I will be referring to them as), which are the following: Assassin, Warrior, Guardian, Mage, and Hunter.
I will be focusing on one semi-common interaction with Loki and mages such as Anubis.
Loki runs in with his attack speed-Lifesteal-Crit build, and deletes the Anubis from the game... but wait, Loki expended his ult to kill the anubis and a Warrior(Physical Tank) is now chasing him, and will kill him via CCs if he can't be evasive enough.
In fact, Alternate scenario where Anubis reacts fast enough to put Loki in a CC, that Loki is now deleted from the game because Anubis can delete him in less than a second.
Loki, and most Assassins for that matter, puts himself at great risk to get his rewards of kills, and while mages have inherently less risk, their risk is heightened because very few of them proper mobility, leaving the mage at risk to a Loki who knows what he's doing.
And that is ONE hero interaction in SMITE, and despite numerous gods being added regularly, the game feels balanced... unlike Overwatch 2 which is a mess of low risk high reward.
Yeah and a big part of OW becoming OW2 was to reduce cc but with 1 tank the cc feels similar and now when Hazard is paired with Mei on the new OW2 designed control maps - 2 walls, great going Blizz
I love playing monkey. My coach has even told me my monkey is t500. In scrims my monkey is a god. Yet I am mid diamond.. why? Mauga, illari, torb, and others simply exist... ow needs longer cd/s for some heros... like if marvel rivals has taught us anything, immortalities (not ults) are not healthy, and some abilities should be 12 seconds or longer
What i hear is reworking lamp and suzu. Make lamp a heal pool and make suzu a cleanse with no immo, just an hp bump. Seriously annoying to play against. Cooldowns should not nullify ultimates. DVA bomb? Lamp, suzu. Hanzo dragon? Lamp, suzu. Dragon blade? Lamp, suzu. I think we get the picture. When surviving an ult meant trading an ult, it was fair. DVA bomb? Beat. Dragon/Dragon blade? Transcendence. Grav? Transc/beat. Now you just drop a lamp or suzu and your ult is moot.
Coach? Can’t tell if this comment is satire
@@drawingablank3904 completely agree. Like we aren't playing shield meta, we are playing bait meta. bait the cooldowns and maybe you get ult value.
I'm brand new to this FPS PvP. I'm coming from Sim Racing. 4yrs. So I don't know A lot at all. So yes this helps a lot. I do understand the micro difference. Between the very top vs the bottom and why it matters. I understand bc at the Pro level in Racing. Is very small difference. So the difference in hundreds could see you being top5 vs being last. So Mico adjustments makes a huge difference at the Pro or High level.
And this skill thing is comparable with a skilled driver vs the amateur driver in racing.
Great point about empowered punch. Blizzards nerfs his other abilities again removing even more skill from this character. Seismic slam was fine and fun and they just fucked it twice bc they dont understand this character. Why dont they ask themselfs 2 questions. What is fun? What is strong? Those parts that dont overlap on the fun side can be nerfed and when you want to buff do the fun parts unless you are undoing past nerfs. So incase of doomfist, buff movement nerf block.
Dropped Overwatch years ago but it’s nice to hear my main man Genji is the last bastion (no pun intended) of the old era.
Saw the thumbnail and imidiatly thought: " Preach it Brother "
I agree but saying tracer is fair is diabolical. She does require effort to access, but once she is accessed, she has infinite potential. Her mobility is absolute ridiculous. She can escape for free and dive for free. So much mobility on that character that she has the freedom to basically do whatever she wants. She has to reach 20% to actually be playable. You have to reach 90% to consistently deal with her. There's a reason she has effectively no counters.
Should have simply drawn the bars for skill floor with the second color. So the comparison is more visible.
It's almost like they made Kiriko easy to play and op to sell battlepass or something
Moira: i understand your point, but the value of skill ceiling moira is not the same as skill ceiling ana for example. Its ok to have some easier heroes in the game even if they feel cheap to play against. If I lose to a moira i always tell myself its on me.
Hanzo: if you play at low risk as you project, you dont get high value. The tank will hide behind a corner and his supports gain ult charge from healing.
Doomfist: partly agree. What often is neglected as value because it doesnt show up on the scoreboard is keeping the enemy backline busy/ creating space. If backline is kept busy and not healing, that is still value.
I hate your opinions
@Zerker7745 I recommend tissues so you can wipe your tears of rage and frustration
I quit Mobile Legends, a very popular MOBA for Android, because they started introducing these low-risk, high-reward heroes. Glass cannons that aren't glass.
I was thinking on how to make widow feel better to fight.
Hear me out.
Make her shots deal a flat 60 damage, and 120 on headshots.
No ramp up. Let’s say, it has time between shots- like .80 seconds ish (not thinking too hard about that at the moment- but thoughts are welcome.) So no spamming on full damage widow shots.
If the target that was shot is below half (and it is a headshot, not applied to body shots) it deals a bonus 25 damage.
This damage will only be applied if the enemy is already below half hp, not if they cross that barrier with a shot.
So one shotting tracer is still on the table, but she would be more focused on low health enemies rather than 3 shotting a tank without being seen in low ranks, and also less of a nuisance to deal with in high (plat and up) ranks.
Of course this bonus damage can be fixed to a percentage instead. Like 2% max health, so it can scale with tanks- but not be as oppressive as it is now with the “your healthbar are now belong to me” widow.
Same could go for hanzo- though his risk is much higher with position. So it would have a range of percentage bonus.
Lets say 5 bonus damage or .25% from long to mid distance, ramping to 4 or 5% max health mid to close distance.
This bonus will NOT apply on abilities like storm arrow which will remain as a flat damage as it is now.
Any thoughts?
I don't see why anyone would play a widow maker that requires 2 shots to kill a 250 hp hero.
Wonder how rein stacks up…I have my opinions, but as a rein main, I think I’d be biased
I like rein and he’s well made. 6v6 rein is super shield botty though and I don’t like him there
@@GREED_EU Seriously, in 6v6 I just feel like a shield for my team.....but the second I try to do anything else, I feel like I instantly blow up. I may have just forgotten how to play Rein in 6v6. I kinda forgot how super punishable Rein was in OW1
the ¨low risk¨ of kiriko is a so-so
the character loses all carry potential if you tp back without getting a kill, and can also get punished for tping back altogether
i can tell you dont play kiriko whatsoever because genji is the hardest to duel against with her, not only he has higher damage and mobility, he can chase kiriko on wallclimb and does it faster thanks to the double jump
wasting the suzu on the dash is a bad play
ironically kiriko duels sombra way easier than genji
what is killing genji rn is other dps, widow can get value by just existing, ashe can perma burn him preventing his dive altogether, mei can spary his face with no risk
imo what he needs is a second dash and maybe a refresh of dash with a number of dragonblade strikes instead of kills, so he can switch targets mid ult, his problem is that is a character designed for a game where supports have way less authority than dps over the match
This is just not true
Kinda cooked with this. Why even play Genji when half the DPS roster can do what he does better with half the risk, and when most of the healers have an ability to counter his ult or CC his dive.
You touched on it slighty but I'd like to emphasize the different experiences you get based on rank. Why do people hate Moira bastion in low rank. Hate genji on middle ranks and hate Kiri in high ranks? It's because of scaling like you say. Skill floor being high is also a consequence of certain other characters having so much free value it's impossible to compete with at low ranks. Like genji against Moira. By having "accessible" characters, you make others, especially the fun ones, less accessible. This is key
Issue with Genji for me is that every response to him leaves me in a bad spot. I can't shot him due to deflect and I can't outrun him due to his mobility.
This seems really subjective and doesn't offer much solution per design. Block into EMP punch might not be as fun of a gameplay loop but playing against it is way more palatable than when he was DPS with other parts of his kit buffed. You could argue old doom had high value for low risk since he 0-death enemies very fast while also having strong mobility (unlike snipers). I know your argument isn't exactly new vs old doom but that's where my head goes when you say take away empowered punch and buff his kit in other ways.
Old doom was equally horrible design?
@GREED_EU what is the solution?
@@bl-ands Don't make him a 1-shot punch bot
Although many people think that the genre is overexploited, I think that even with OW and rivals, another one can come out and be the best hero shooter.
I've been preaching this shit as a coach. It's great to see it exemplified. 6v6 adds more risk to all things and eliminated other forms of risk. It's fantastic
Oh, he said it! He said the word! Dead Space 4:27.
Idk, I am not convinced. Firstly, I am not sold on the idea that having MORE skill means that you have to take MORE risk. Having more skill if anything means that you know better what risks to take and what risks not to take. So a character in a sense becomes LESS risky if you play it better. Overall all of this seems to be more based off of "vibes" than actual solid reasoning tbh. Not saying its completely wrong, I can see where you are coming from, but I think this is based far more on feeling than on fact.
Secondly, a character being safe and not having to take much risk is not inherently a bad thing. It can be a defining trait of a character that that character is safe , as long as that character in return has some other trade-offs in their kit which makes them being safe fair.
And thirdly, most importantly, that characters/games should have as low of a skill floor and as high of a skill ceiling as possible is a very common and very big misconception about game design. There are a ton of good reasons for giving some character a high skill ceiling and a high skill floor, or for giving a character a low skill ceiling and a low skill floor and giving every character a super high skill ceiling and a super low skill floor can lead to many problems for a game in the long run. If you want I can go deeper into this, but August, a game designer on League of Legends, also has a many great clips explaining why this is.
Name a hero that is low risk, high value, and fun to play against
@@GREED_EU I used to play a ton of Overwatch, but I haven't played it in a very long time. My points were meant more in a general sense and not regarding Overwatch specifically. Overwatch obviously has some huge design problems, which is why I stopped playing.
However, it is true that often characters that are very safe aren't fun to play against. However, I think its fine if not every character is fun to play against. Obviously the level of frustration playing against a certain character entails should never be disregarded and should remain within certain bounds, but generally the fun of playing AS a character is more important than the fun playing AGAINST a character (I think online communities often over-emphasize the importance of playing against something because of negativity bias). Over-focusing on making character un-frustrating to play against can often lead to character that aren't fun to be played as, and is thus a design trap imo.
As I said, I didn't play Overwatch for a very long time, so I am not sure if those practical examples hold up to scrutiny or are still true now, but Widowmaker may be an example of a safe Hero that is well designed. Solider 76 maybe? Reaper is (or used to be) quite safe I believe (With his tankyness and shadow form thingy thats a very reliable get-out-of-jail-free card), yet also fair with how close he needs to get to his enemies. Not saying that those heros can't be frustrating (Especially Widowmaker, like snipers in most games, can be very frustrating), but I do believe that they are well designed.
I genuinely wish Team 4 sees this.
14:30 I have barely played overwatch in 3 years but I feel so validated right now. Genji was so fun but it felt so unrewarding to play him.
I swear i was waiting the whole vid for Orisa and the SC:2 R:0 V:1000
Still another gud vid like always
I love diving supports and widows as reaper. You're a big and loud emo shotgun man walking by the shadows and you have to play really good to get value.
That or you farm the tank and hope to not die in the process.
You make the assumption that playing at the skill floor also means you play without much risk, which isn't necessarily true. Most dive characters have as part of their floor being able to dive the other team successfully, which is inherently risky.
You also make the claim that low risk with relatively high value is bad game design, which I don't buy. I don't care if Hanzo risked it all to get that one shot, I still got one shot and I don't enjoy that. Maybe I'll find it impressive, but it's still "ugh".
As another example on how this risk value is irrelevant to skill and value, Ana arguably becomes better as she takes less risk, as gold and plat players need to learn to not mindlessly sleep dart down main if they want to climb. By saving the dart for a flanker or diver, they are actively taking less risk and becoming more skilled of a player thanks to it.
There are also players who prefer to not take risks, and I feel they should have characters that fit them.
15:08 He's explaining Frogger/Steve 😂
Yeah. Honestly the game in OW2 is designed by people who have no clue what the philosphy for overwatch should be to make it interesting
Hi, im Ana main since her release in 2016, at the time it was really fun to play with her because most of the annoying heroes didn't exist yet, and i could do so much with her, nowadays i feel like im irrelevant in some matches, no matter how good i play, and then i switch to kiriko and it feels like im cheating, and i don't have fun with it, cuz it just feels wrong that i can negate so much plays with just a single hero, its obscene to me. At this point, i think Overwatch is unfixable because of the amount of low skill/high reward mechanics they created, its too late, anyways, i just switched to Rivals and im having so much fun, but good video.