Sawing an ELAC speaker in half to see how it's built | Crutchfield video
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- Shop for ELAC speakers at Crutchfield: goo.gl/mZsuWE
Read our interview with Andrew Jones about the design of ELAC Adante speakers: goo.gl/wRLUHG
There's hands-on...and then there's this. We took an ELAC Adante AS -61 speaker, and in order to take a peek at ELAC's design and build quality we took a table saw and lopped it in two. While it was painful to ruin such a beautiful speaker, what we learned was even more valuable.
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Really interesting to see how speaker design has evolved, I enjoyed the video, thanks.
As a young man I worked for a company called Webb Massey in Orange Country in Southern California. We made speaker enclosures for all the major speaker companies....Infinity, JBL, KLH, Cerwin Vega and a few others, this was back in the early 70's. My job started out as a machine operator running the Steffani (edge bander) then I was assigned to making the prototypes and patterns for production. I build the first Cervo Screens for Cerwin Vega, I didn't get to hear them, but at $4,000.00 each I figured they would been darn impressive. I had 4 Infinity Monitors for my Fisher Quad receiver in my apartment that at the time was pretty cool. I've been in the woodworking industry all my life and moved on to own my own company, I'm pretty much retired now but still make things when asked. I've designed a speaker for myself that's going to be out of solid walnut and very unique that I'm looking forward to making when I get some free time.
Andrew Jones is one savvy designer. He could easily start his own company but this way, as a designer-engineer, he can concentrate on designs based on his knowledge of physics, human hearing, and acoustics. I get the impression he totally loves what he's doing and accomplishing.
3:20 Now I've haven't done this before, it's not rehearsed, so I don't know exactly what we're going to see... 3:48 Now if I remember correctly... So have you done this before or not?
The Passive Radiator and sub driver design surprised me. Didn't expect that.
can someone explain why this combination of ported woofer into passive woofer benefits, or perhaps search words so i can read it for myself? :)
I believe its a 6th order bandpass...
Good thing you didn't cut through the magnets.
says i'll cut to the side to miss the magnets.... sparks fly as he plows right into them
10:16 you knew when the sparks started that he was cutting right through the magnets that he said he didn't want to cut through. lol
11:39 yup he sure did cut thought the magnets
That was one hell of a genius work from Andrew Jones 👏👏👏
I am IMPRESSED!!!
these are the best speakers i heard for the money asked.and the florstanders too.with the parasound JC1 Monoblocs conected too an accuphase cd player via variable outputs,they are incredibly transparent and musical.Andrew is a fantastic loudspeaker designer probably one of the best ever.
How can something driving a passive woofer be transparent - you obviously have no clue what you are talking about.
maybe you dont have have a clue,...i work in audio for more than 30 years,ive been distribuitor for cello,i work for the last 8 years in one of the best audio video stores in the world,called Ultimate audio´,we are the distribuitors for Gryphon audio,CH,TAD,Rockport speakers,B&W,Kef, Luxman,Accuphase,Elac,T+A,Kubala Sosna,Sinergistic reserch,Avant gard,Oyaide,Gigawatt,etc etc for Portugal and Spain,i´ve been fot the last 25 years all over the world in Ces,Munique,Frankfurt,Madrid,Valencia,Barcelona,doing shows and instaling systems,and yes Andrew Jones is a Great speaker designer and these are great speakres and very trasparent,
the dual concentric mid/treble that are in these amazing loudspeakers dont have any passive radiator in front of them. did you alredy listen to these in your room,or store or show etc???if dont or if you do,express or opinion without saying that i have no clue,i like it you dont period.
Rui don't let the trolls bother you.
The Debuts are probably great for the price, but for 2500$ there are a lot of speakers out there, some floor standers.You can get floor stander B&W at this price, just saying.
I got a pair of factory refurbished Martin Logan ESL's at Safe & Sound for $1800 in brand new condition. It pays to scour the web as deals like that are out there.
How can i put the parts together after sawing it. It doesnt work anymore...
*Don't try this at home* haha
Jesus that Crossover!!!! I am in love!!!
I would like a better look at that crossover. It looks pretty impressive.
Damn that's awesome!! I want to hear it!!
PS thought you were gonna use a band saw.
I haven't heard the speaker before but my first thought on that woofer design would be that it would sound muffled but I assume it doesn't
the passive is actually much faster sounding then the ported design he has essentially used the benefits of both designs and reducing the ported designs down sides very good idea. i'd have to hear to see if its successful (to my ears of course) but Andrew has been know to design some wonderful sounding speakers.
I was thinking exactly the same thing. I'm sure it would sound muddy compared to hearing directly from the driver unless it's pressurised inside which I highly doubt. You do usually get some lower mids coming through the woofer on normal speakers to fill out the sound and I'm not sure they'd come though here. Anyway, as Glen said, apparently the guy knows what he's doing so who am I to argue.
Except that they used a coaxial driver so that the woofer doesn't have to do more than 80Hz
Never though much of Elac TBH
@@Cyba_IT_NZ speakers cannot be pressurized. Think about it...
Andrew Jones has designed 3 ranges for Elac, not 2 (Dubut, Unify and Adante). You should know this.
Salty..
Debut, Uni-Fi, Uni-Fi Slim, Adante.
U mad bro?
I believe that a plate in the back of the mid/high frequency chamber was missing where the wires would connect through but be acoustically isolated. The machined relief in the wood might be a supporting clue. Very interesting that the passive radiator gets forward motion from both the front and back pressure waves of the woofer. With low enough mass on the passive radiator to be able to respond fast enough to keep all that physical motion in phase and tight is pure genius. I can't imagine the mathematics and testing it took to get it right. Very nice little speaker.
As the main driver moves forward, the ported air moves inward and this conflicts with the radiator wanting to move forward with the main driver and the same in reverse when the main driver moves backwards? Don’t see how you can successfully integrate abr design with ported cabinet design, it doesn’t make sense?
Here is my guess. As the driver moves forward, part of its energy pushes the radiator forward, and the other part circulates through the port to the rear compartment. Analogous to internal workings of a laser.
But won't that bass port drive the radiator on the rebound phase of the bass driver, as well as the forward or compression phase? What does that additional driving movement sound like? Interesting.
I have seen tons of speaker designs over the years, I had a passive radiator way back, transmission line, 2 way 3 way even 4 way, seen the speakers in the box with a port only on the outside, but never a design like this. Amazing, a ported radiator system! The crossover, is huge too. Quite an amazing design.
It's a 6th order bandpass using a passive radiator for the front chamber instead of a port. That's kind of cool.
Well this one has a unique approach all the lows are loaded unto the Passive radiator, i will try this one soon ..thanks for sharing
Really enjoyed that video. What an interesting design. I also would like to see the design of other interesting speakers from the inside out. Thanks.
1. It sounds good, there are $3000 computer speakers that use two $18 fountek fullrangers, so in the grand scheme of things to get a fairly well built cabinet, improved extension via a well tuned 4th order, what looks to be a well thought out crossover and a pleasant coax is not terrible.
2. Most "hi-fi" sells for 5-10x what it costs to make.
3. With a few months of study and practice, you can make something better for far less than half this much, but DIYers aren't the target market for $2500 bookshelf speakers
Man those fountek fullrangers are incredible for the price, but your right those at $3000 are way over priced
I really liked how you carefully took off the front grill and set that aside and then later, sawed that thing in half! Are you selling those other parts now? really interesting video....you're the man!
Looks like a variation on a quasi sixth order series tuned bandpass, using a passive radiator in place of a port. Do not like that the combo tweeter / mid is connected to the same cavity space as the woofer.
Reading the comments it seems there is meant to be a plate behind the tweeter / mid, which would make sense. Obviously missing from the engineering sample.
would of been a bit better if it had a plexiglass window on one of the panels. my thoughts 😬
Hmmm... Think there is a part missing from the engineering sample. Whatever mounts in the square hole behind the mid/tweet. Because as is, the 'open' back mid/tweet is in the same physical chamber as the ported woofer. That would be a disaster and a horrible design. Just something I noticed :)
That's where that huge Crossover goes, it wasn't missing, it just was pre-removed and then placed incorrectly in the box I think. Edit: It could also just be a simple speaker terminal that goes in there between where the xover is located and the driver, hard to say.
I noticed the same thing. Seems that the mid/tweeter shares a common chamber to the back of the woofer. I'd assume this is to mitigate any pressure differentials in the mid/tweeter section while also providing a hole for wiring. I'd be worried however because the woofer may flex that mid driver. Who knows if they put some kind of filter/ baffle in the production model. As it stands, this is a funky design but I'm sure it sounds incredible.
Looks that way according to this images.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageHandler/trim/620/378/products/2017/47/970/g970AS61GB-o_other1.jpg
No Richard, no they do not.
If you have speaker with an open back - meaning the rear of the cone can move air behind it. And you place another open back speaker in the same airspace. They will affect one another. If one is a mid range and the other a woofer; then every time the woofer cone moves, it will create a tremendous amount of pressure on the mid driver. Screwing it up both sonically and possibly physically. That is why EVERY speaker manufacture will have a separate chamber for dissimilar drivers that are open back.
If you look at the internal picture on the Crutchfield page it shows a blocking plate that covers the access hole behind the mid driver. They are isolated enclosures. So no crosstalk from the bass driver... But still not a fan of bandpass bass systems.
I don't understand… : 1.is the box of midrange/tweeter not closed? 2.why not just use a big bass driver instead of driving a bigger passive driver with a small bass driver?
Oh, what a nice promotion video - Nice idea!
I have the Adante floor standers and I'm not sawing them in half as they sound great as is. I power them with an AA DPA-1.
I accidentaly cut my speaker in half, will gluing the two parts together make it good as new?
very interesting. thank you for sharing.
Looks a lot, like the Anarchy woofer from DIYsoundgroup. Great woofer, with great excursion and linearity. I bet that sounds great in a 6th order, series tuned passive radiator, bandpass alignment.
Panasonic Thrusters...just one behind the other instead of one on top of the other?
If what I found online about the Panasonic Thruster speakers is correct, yes!
@@crutchfield I stuck a pair in my closet in college. Concrete walls and a solid oak door with an inch of space at the bottom...acted like a pretty good band pass sub woofer with four 10 inch woofers...when I played a woofer test...14 guys came into room in a quick hurry.
That must have been both impressive and terrifying at the same time lol Any of them have a look like they just seen a ghost?
Well, it was Bible college so, perhaps the battle of Jericho? Walls were shaking, babies cried and I got a "verbal warning" from campus police.
You get a 6th order response in the bass. Not better (tighter) than a second order from a bigger box, but more bass from a smaller box.
Do not stop there, how about doing that $5K LG 65" TV... Love to see it cut in half...
Looks good and innovative. Any impulse, step response, distortion, and freq plots?
We don't have any charts showing that information and I couldn't find any on ELAC's web site. I recommend giving them a call on 714-252-8843 to see if they have this to send out
--Crutchfield
Thanks for the reply.
I appreciate it is not your responsibility/concern; but it is very hard to design even good passive loudspeakers (let alone good active monitors) well without knowing the frequency V distortion plots - frequency V phase plots - impulse V time response - step V time response - waterfall plots.
Otherwise, how do you know your initial R&D investment has achieved its specifications and goals?
Sure, in the Hi Fi world there are lots of speakers that "sound" good with questionable and/or poor performance specs.
But in my experience there are far more well designed speakers with good performance specifications that sound good; meaning these speakers/monitors perform well in both listening and bench tests.
Consider ATC's range.
I would like to see how the acoustic 2nd order bass roll off coupled with the electronic 1st order bass roll off performs; as per the designers claims.
Usually 3rd order roll offs have some inherent compromises associated with them, and I doubt this system will be too different.
Doesn't mean it's not a nice speaker though, it's just that I am always a bit skeptical of claims that are not backed up by real world repeatable tests.
A speaker that delivers a nice clean waterfall plot, impulse/step response, and cabinet reflection test never hurt its its overall acoustic signature and listening test.
To the subject of ELAC's flagship (large egg shaped) speaker and it's air motion transformer tweeter; whilst they do sound nice and exhibit some efficiency advantages; they're prone to high distortion levels and I can't remember how well they perform in the other above-mentioned tests.
Still, these Hi Fi speakers you have cut in half seem like a reasonable system for the price.
I won't call ELAC, as I doubt they will provide all the above-mentioned test results, very few speaker companies do as they prefer to let their advertising and listening tests do the selling.
Great video.
I've always wondered how, if any, does the vibration affect the circuit boards within. ie In car stereo installs, I never like mounting the amps on the sub enclosure itself, or in the line of sight of the subs. Am I being to cautious?
yes.
Thanks for this video.
Please do the AF-61 floorstander as well.
Thanks for sharing. Nice vid, love
Looks like the crossover is not for that speaker. If you look at the cabinet behind the mid driver there is a cutout that looks like its for for the crossover board and it would be somewhat smaller than the one provided. Also I find this design for the bass driver seems somewhat strange. Although I'm sure it may provide for decent bass response one would think that the mid and upper bas tones would suffer being reproduced by a passive radiator.
Yes he did
Great! Should you pawn a Harbeth M30.2 next please?
Those components are beautiful
This is great. Do more Andrew Jones please! How about the new Debut?
elac should make a mini monitor speaker for their new adante line complete with 4 binding posts for bi wiring to compete with the proac tablette.
"we will avoid cutting through metal".... proceeds to cut through the metal. :D Anyway, great design and excellent build! I still suspect that Elac did not supply one little piece, the one sealing the enclosure for the midrange+tweeter driver from the woofer enclosure. That is not a problem for an engineering sample, obviously.
I wonder how much the bass driver affects that top tweeter?
monitor audio platinum sound better or PSI from Swiss, very good choice, For elac is only JET V serial
Awesome video and I wish a start of a new series of videos. Please do this very thing with other speakers. Very cool idea.
It's not controlled, tight, accurate bass that's trying to be achieved by this design- it's a wider range of response in the lower frequencies. The passive radiator is still considered a ported design.. so you've got a ported box, INSIDE a ported box. It's a series 6th order bandpass. Each ported box is tuned to (likely) an octave apart, widening the punchy response typically found in a ported enclosure.
But don't misperceive my comment as me not being impressed! My minds blown by this design- and I want a pair!
play it now! see if it sounds better open baffle
this lucky viewer want that crossover
Um, the next iteration will likely have electronic (active) DSP xovers. Check out www.xkitz.com/
Reminds me of ESS speakers sold by Leo's Stereo back in the days
Interesting speaker
What is the logic of this system? I know ported speaker enclosures do not sound natural unless the ports are perfectly tuned. And that's no easy thing to do. But anyhow ported speakers can generate more bass power. In this design the thrust from the ports need to be in harmony with the active woofer. The thrusts from the 2 ports and the active woofer together will drive the passive radiator which in turn is in a sealed enclosure. So the quality of a sealed enclosure and the power of a ported enclosure. Is my understanding right? If yes I have a doubt. Will it be cheaper to drive a typical sealed enclosure speaker with the amplifier substituted for a little more powerful one to get this much bass and this quality?
I have not heard these, but I think using air as a conduit for driving the bass radiator seems very inefficient to me. I have to believe the compressability of the air channel would make the bass very sloppy compared to a direct radiator's output. I have heard the effect in other speakers.
Great video. Excellent box and crossover design.
You have the blade on backwards on the table saw
Hi, very nice video... One Q ...shouldnt bass & passive radiator be of same type and size? I had similar speaker but with both active units ...Linn Sara and can vouch that speaker of that or similar design will produce tremendous and huge bass , rendering you puzzled how such a small box can produce such a big sound. Great design. After hearing that for the first time I simply had to have similar design in every other speaker I bought. Either isobarik or pass.rad or compression with speakers inside like Conjugate Load Matching, Coupled-Cavity bass loading seen in KEF 107 which I currently have... so a floorstander with such added benefits. No wonder it went to 20hz in the 80's :) and no wonder I wont be replacing it anytime soon in my bedroom system.
Crutchfield fan.
cheers
the one thing that i dont understand about this desgign is: why the crossover isn't shielded or in a separate compartment.
I believe elac is trying to utilize more volume in a small cabinet.
Debut remains the best sound for price!!
Would you please do this to a California Audio Technology Elite Speaker? :-)
Great video. Thanks for sharing.
For a second, I could swear I was smelling the fresh cut wood.
Interesting, thanks for this. I bought these a few months ago when they were on sale for $1500, incredible detail and soundstage, great smooth bass and good extension too. What is the purpose of an engineering sample, do they want people sawing their products?
You gotta love some TH-camrs, he feels the need to tell us that if we saw one of our speakers in half then we will have one less speaker! 😂
These are fantastic speakers! JR is one of the training managers here at Crutchfield, and we did this to demonstrate the unique design and build of the speakers. :) WE obvioulsy do not recommend sawing your $1500+ speakers in half!
Crutchfield it was interesting thanks, just breaks my heart to see them go under the saw! 😀
Nice vid, love seeing inside stuff!!
is this speaker now half off? j/k and jokes aside, I almost wish crutchfield offered DIY speaker kits like parts express. guess I'll see what's new over there and see if they have anything similar
Looking forward to seeing more videos like this! :)
I am crying wright now!!!
Still hit the magnet lol!
Black Panther Oops!
My thoughts too ... 10:43 - duffed it 😉.
LOL, you could see the sparks when he went through the first two. surprised he didn't stop
Sand cast resistors at this price point?
A series tuned 6th order using a passive radiator. Interesting
Funny, I would have assumed that the passive radiator was to shunt subwoofer and port noise from up close listening.
good job avoiding those magnets lol
There are lots of cutaway views of the speaker on the web. I don't know why you cut it in half?
It was still painful to watch a work of art being cut in half. Nothing wrong with just taking it apart and explaining how it works that way. Then putting it back together.
Good job!
maravilhoso, as entranhas de uma caixa, que è um mito.
do more like this
I love to see you do bowers and Wilkins 802d3
This bass configuration isn’t as novel as one would think. It’s similar to sealed bandpass subwoofers found in car audio subs and computer satellite/subwoofer modules. Now I understand why the tweeter is more like a midrange/tweeter like in Bose satellites. Sorta un-special.
That is an interesting band pass woofer setup.
now i like my passive radiators on my older systems :D
Im happy with my Martin Logan’s
How put music to that noise 🤔
In answer to Ralph Hardwick:
"What is your beef with them?"
1) They are commercially driven, Fact! We all have a need and a drive to make money. What I mean by Commercially driven basically leads to a 'Conflict Of Interest'.... you will promote anything, regardless, because you are being sponsored and because you are gaining financially. Why not test products, review the best, and not even comment on the others (that's what I do)? Because as a commercially driven ... magazine/company, WHF understand that they make money from a product whether its good or bad. I could go into it more but I'll leave it there.
2) As someone once commented, "You know 10 years in advance what the What Hi-Fi 5 star products are going to be", and I agree. Cyrus, Naim, Dali, Wharfdale, B&W, Kef etc, etc ... the usual suspects!
3) "Can you point me in the direction of a review they have put out that is completely untrue?"
I don't know if I've said this before, I do own a pair of WHF 5 star speakers. I use them to compare with my speaker builds, and believe me they are not good speaker by any stretch of the imagination. It would be funny, if I hadn't paid out £250-300 for them! I keep them to demo to people of what they're missing by buying commercial speakers over DIY speakers and how bad commercial products are.
I did own a pair of Dynaudio MC15 and they where promptly replaced by a pair of Paul Carmody Classix II speakers at less than a 1/5th of the price. Now, I love Dynaudio i really do, but I still maintain in terms of speakers DIY leads the way.
th-cam.com/video/k_Bp8dOsZE8/w-d-xo.html
There are some clever people out there willing to help and give advice - th-cam.com/video/C61lj3Jy-sI/w-d-xo.html
4) If you only swim in the pool of 'Certain' branded items as WHF does, you miss the entire experience of the ocean, and in the sphere of acoustics, you choke your system of its potential. Sure you'll see the odd product from a small manufacturer from WHF but in the main, its big name brands.
As a surfer I'll give you a surfing analogy.
What Hi-Fi is this: th-cam.com/video/A2F2Dsb4Y1A/w-d-xo.html
Where you could be doing this: th-cam.com/video/7nS_aR8XX_U/w-d-xo.html
I built my first pair of speakers back in 1991 ... if I remember rightly. Now, the world of speakers has been opened up to everyone, and speaker design and building isn't a secret art that only a few choice people possess. I see speakers costing thousands and tens of thousands that blatantly use components costing a few dollars or speaker design that my cat to design and build for next to nothing with the help from sites like part-express.com.
If people want to follow blindly, go right ahead and join them, just don't expect me or my money to join in.
QuikSeps
QuikSeps
1 month ago
And these can be yours at only $2500 pair. Made in China for $99.
49
So basically this is a Bose Acustimass Subwoofer with an integrated midrange and tweeter?
Don't use the "B" word please
Accoustimass doesn't use a "coupled cavity design" with a passive radiator in front. Their designs are usually bandpass designs. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
If the speaker has a port, that means that the design is using the mass of air inside the port for tuning, which is lighter and has, therefore, less inertia. When the designer wants to tune the band-pass design to a lower frequency, the port lengths or cross-sections becomes not feasible to fit in a small loudspeaker, or the volume velocities become so high that the listener experiences "blowing noises". The alternative solution is to replace the long port with a passive radiator. Passive radiators can replace ports 10-12m long, therefore they are cheaper solutions to complications of a port design otherwise would be very expensive to build. However, their group delays are the worst and they have a lot of irregularities in the low frequencies. Besides, they push the active speaker to higher excursions below resonance frequency and increase the overall THD.
Having built numerous bandbass designs as well as a clone of the Adante's coupled cavity design, I can say that it's a bit different than a standard bandpass. (What a pain to model.) A lot is the same, but this design calls for a lightweight passive radiator instead of a typical weighted passive radiator used to tune the lower frequencies. The difference is that the woofer behind it is already a ported enclosure and is tuned to a specific frequency. I think the point of Andrew Jones' design was to reduce the port chuffing you were talking about, to achieve the low frequency extension associated with a ported design while keeping the enclosure "sealed" from the outside, and to make it look cool. I think we agree more than we disagree. I see how the alignment is similar. If I remember correctly, the Bose uses a 6th order bandpass (maybe 8th order) and the Adante uses a quasi-sixth order bandpass using a PR instead of a port.
It is not painful at all. In fact, anybody who had the idea of, unloading the active speaker (to make it cheaper) from generating the very low frequencies, and handing that functionality to the passive slaves, have tried a variation of this in the late 70s and early 80s. If you are familiar with SoundEasy (www.bodziosoftware.com.au/) you can see that this topology has already been implemented in the list of readily available topologies almost more than a decade ago. Before that, the incredible Joerg Panzer gave an excellent explanation of this topology in his help text for the famous Akabak. That was in 1994. Yes, it is hard to accept that the "wheel is round" in the audio industry and everybody can fall into the trap that, whatever they are putting in the market has not been done before, but believe me, a lot of very smart people has come and gone through this industry. By the way, who is Joey Mariano? Are you guys related?
brushed aluminum?...It looks painted to me...just saying....oh and i'm going to cut it just off center so as not to hit the magnets....dope!...I forgot...sparks flying!
tolong berikan saya deskripsi ukuran box speaker. Saya ingin mencoba membuat box seperti itu. Tolong dijawab terimakasih
The ELAC Adante AS-61 measures: 9-11/16"W x 19-1/16"H x 15-13/16"D
@@crutchfield trimakasih, bisakah anda membuat konten video tentang diamter ukurannya. Saya pikir akan banyak yang meng apresiasin
We will pass along your suggestion to our video team!
6th order bandpass with out the chuffing nice
Absconded is a transitive verb.
finally he did cut the magnet , sparks flying....
Absconded this room? Absconded means “leave hurriedly and secretly, typically to escape from custody or avoid arrest”. Good video though.
Is that going to be a discounted floor model?
kamaboko1 Open box special.
kamaboko1 Half off.
There is a lot of power loss with the cross over coils better of with a tri amp system
Or you could consult the pdf.
Mr. Alex Jones. I too need to cut you speakers in half. Please send 4 towers, a center, and 4 bookshelves. All Adante thank you. Oh and 2 of your best subs. I promise to cut this 5.2.4 Atmos setup in half in roughly 15 to 20 years from now. Really. Respond to this comment and let's set it up. K?
FrakU2 Dude, you mixed up your Jones's.
infowars.com
Alex Jones is the nutfuck idiot from Infowars. Andrew Jones.
#gayfrogs
Hope you got it wired properly, won’t sound good otherwise.
lol funny