I knew I had to follow Dr. Ehrman when I found out that all the income from his blog goes directly to charity-something many overlook, but it’s a teaching of Jesus. Not to mention, I’ve learned so much from him.
Exactly what made me sign up for his blog years ago. When I heard him say that I just felt better about signing up for it even if I didn’t read it everyday.
@ interesting. How does someone else not living up to what they’re supposed to do make you abandon your faith completely? There must be more to it than that.
@@moafro6524I imagine they realized there’s no causal relationship between religious affiliation and moral virtue. Once people realize they don’t need to believe in a god to be a good person, many see the god concept as superfluous.
This show is just fantastic. Love both Bart and Megan. It is like being at the beginning of Christianity, every time. The salty air, the warm olive trees, the Tyre glass bathrooms without plumbing.
😂 Sometimes we watched the news as a family when I was a kid. Afterwards, we would discuss the day's events. My grandmother never said much. Once, I asked her what she thought. She said, "Mr. Cronkite was wearing such a lovely tie."
Bart's glasses are often more understated than his most learned observations. Surely there is a connection between the apparatus and the intellect? M.L is often striking as well.
The last two episodes I've noticed Bart and Meghan don't spend time chatting at the beginning of the episodes. I'm happy about this change, as I don't have to skip over the beginning of the video.
Misquoting Jesus is such an excellent podcast. Thank you so much. I'm not a believer, but I grew up in an Anglican environment so it's important for me to understand the texts and beliefs that have so greatly influenced, for better or worse, the history of the Christian world. Megan Lewis’s thoughtful and articulate questioning and Bart Ehrman’s scholarly explanations are invaluable.
Given the likely number of lost letters, it is very possible (if not plausible) that many of the surviving pseudepigraphic letters reflect the teachings of Paul as understood by those churches. Which is why the doctrine may not line up perfectly but certainly appears so similar and compatible that early Christians believed them all authentic.
@@johnmulvey7890 It isn't unsupportable. The doctrine of the Pauline letters collectively is clearly reconcilable, hence why Church Fathers deemed them authentic. The pseudepigraphic ones differ in style, circumstances, or show an evolution of theology beyond Paul's own. We see in Second Corinthians, however, that the churches were absolutely combining and synthesizing legitimate writings of Paul, with the originals then lost.
The Temple was The Mall. It was the centre of commerce and entertainment, as were Church markets in the Medieval Europe and as are shopping malls in modern cities. The Jerusalem Temple was where people and businesses converged, all drawn by butchering of animals offered to YHWH. And the Jerusalem Temple was not the only one. The Temple of Artemis in Ephesus was even more so, as were Karnak, Pantheon, Parthenon, Nymphaeum, Temples of Baalbek, and more…
Well, Robert Price more or less dismisses Paul of Tarsus as a Christianized Appolonius of Tyana. But, Kenneth Humphries shows quite a lot about the correspondence between Pau of Tarsus and Appolonius of Tyana. So, I recommend those two books.
@@kulturkriget Paul of Tarsus is certainly a symbolic figure that combines many different individuals - Simon of Magus/Apollonius of Tyana, a Herodian(in Romans 16:11 he calls himself a Herodian)
@@oker59Apollonius of Tirana was a neopathagorean. Yes the same group that gave us the square root of two. Pythagoras actually faked his own death, went on a sabatical and then returned. Resurrected😎. Price is a nutty as Pythagoras.
Love Megan's glasses. So cool. There is evidence in the Torah that Melchizadekian Presence bread contained hash infused olive oil and psilocybin fungi fine flour and wheat flour. Working on a book to lay out the evidence. The Early Christains broke Melchizadekian Presence bread from house to house getting filled with Holy Spirit and it says they ALL SPAKE THE WORD OF GOD WITH BOLDNESS. Thank you, Bart. Thank you, Megan. Appreciate both of you and your work.
27:54.. Great question and something I’ve often wondered about. For example, I’ve often also wondered if scholars thinks that some of the gospels that did not make it into the Bible nevertheless do contain some true facts about the historical Jesus and his ministry.
See right there... You two were surprised how many people watch the show instead of just listening to it. How are we to be delighted by Megan's glasses by just listening to it?
I must say something rather heretical, but I believe that Paul did a great deal of work that was anti-Jesus in spirit and I could never swallow his vision on the road to Damascus.
@@alextakhmasian1880 In Pauls' writings, he quotes almost nothing from Jesus's sayings ... his focus is on belief in the resurrection, but very little if anything about what Jesus actually taught. I think Bart has done a show on this at some point, contrasting Paul with James.
@@mannymann321Paul practically labels James and his watchers the Anti-Christ. The difference between Jesus and Christ was Jesus was a Jew who died. Christ was Paul’s imagination of a sacrifice to god that was accepted and was free to become the messiah in a second kind of body. Christ is from the Greek Xristos, which means the rubbed one. Obviously his anointment to Paul was a heavenly one. This is mysticism heavily flavored with Hekhalot, as we see in 2 cor 12.
We have to admire the strength and tenacity to wear new glasses every podcast. I guess there is a big collection so far. Probably will be donated in the future. It is so difficult to have in a house so many glasses.
@@VSP4591 You, have a point. The Fable is much more weird. But but just because something is weird, it should be allowed to comment on something else that is weird. It must be allowed to comment on something that is broadcast as a video.
I'm not sure if it has been done but would love a discussion on the Magi. Always been fascinated by them since a kid. I think their inclusion in Matthew was genius in the sense of bestowing majesty and deference on the newborn Jesus. But there is something intriguing about the whole world they introduce on the edges of the new testament.
@restjbo well, he claimed to have knowledge from God. He asserted that he knew what God wanted and demanded. Even in this video, Dr. Erhman stated that Paul was told by God that pagans could worship Jesus. Paul claimed to have had visions from God. Paul was supposedly converted in an experience with God.
Wohoo new glasses! 🤩 That being said, thank you for creating this podcast! This provides so much important information and historical context to these religious texts that really, for the most part, *should* be common knowledge for people to fully comprehend these faiths that are currently related to these texts. Especially given how societally and culturally influencial they have been and still are. Regadless of whether people believe in a higher power themselves, better understanding would enable people to make more conscious decisions when it comes to these topics
On the topic of divorce.. That may be considered bad in the context of 1st century Judea. If a man dumps his wife to get a new one, probably younger, then that's potentially devastating for the woman left behind, without funds, without a husband. That's akin to adultery, I can see that. But fast forward 2000 years and we really don't have the same situation anymore, where we know that there are extremely good reasons why it's better to divorce for everyone involved. Plus nobody is left destitute in the process. It's a teaching that doesn't transfer well to the present day without understanding the historical context.
Ok, you're great but the glasses are an overstatement this time. You could even rock some pearl framed with side chains but you really don't have to do it
In catholic school it was explained that no one could commit the unforgivable sin. To do it, you had to understand what you were doing. If you understood what you were doing, you would not do it. That 1500 year headstart gave them an advantage...
A week or two ago, Bart recommended the Anchor Biblical Dictionary. I bought these six very expensive books, even though I couldn't afford them. Now I'm going to give this dictionary a review. The font size is so small I can't read them without a magnifying glass. This dictionary must be very extensive due to the small font and high number of pages. I'm not sure I'll be able to utilize it. To be fair, I'm an old man with only one eye. But that eye works fine. Even if the font was twice as big, it would be a challenge to read. I'll try to use it for research, but it might be difficult.
The bottomline question is, why do we need to accept and obey Paul in the first place? The common argument is that he was supposed to be "inspired by God". But what does inspired by God even mean? That's the problem. God never told people that Paul's letter to the Corinthians is supposed to be Holy. And if Paul's letters were inspired by God, how come some of them were pseudographical? Why would God inspire a fake author to pass himself as someone who is not really who he claims to be?
2:20 "It's better to believe in reality than in non-reality." Very true! And when we're faced with questions which we lack the information to answer, it's best to admit that in those situations we simply _don't know._ Given the almost complete lack of record keeping during the first 2 centuries CE, the known forging of texts, assignments of names as authorship long after the fact, the re-writing, the translating, etc. I don't see how we can be completely confident "Paul", whoever he was, wrote any of the letters, or that the letters we have from the 3rd and 4th century surviving texts are in fact the letters he wrote, if he indeed wrote some. To me the rational and honest thing to do is to give only so much confidence to our conclusions as the evidence warrants, no matter how tempted we might be to present a complete story.
Most of the stories and characters in the Fable are of course just fantasies. But Paul seems to be an exception. Many concrete details about his life are given, with relatively few contradictions after all the fake letters have been weeded out. Some of what is written about him, fits with real historical events. The stories about him are mostly quite plausible. There are even some mentioning about him by non-Christians from almost the same time as he supposedly lived. The general consensus is that he was a real person. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle
There is a question that is not addressed here. Do we have the original letters? Bart say that we have letters written by Paul’s hand. Do we? Do we have the original letters? Or are we basing all the assumptions on hand copies of copies that could have been altered?
Bits and pieces exist. Unknown if any true originals. Furthermore, lots of content only exists in what are most certainly "later copies". I've spend a long time obsessing over one particular verse which I despise. I've found that the earliest papyrus copy of (some of it) dates to 200-400. Romans is generally assumed to be written around 60 AD. So, the earlier papyrus (of that section) is quite a bit older than the generally agreed date of writing. So, to answer your question in the most honest way that I can... We most certainly don't have solid, complete originals.
Everything is just copies of copies, with lots of differences between various copies. If you have one complete bible with chosen variations, and another book listing all the found deviations from the chosen variations, the second book would be much thicker.
Catholic masses are cespools of "undisputed facts" of Paul's letters. I was forced to attend church until my mother died when I was 10 years old, and I have never stepped into a church since. I am 68 now and a proud atheist.
Sir what made you an atheist? I a am 24 years old man and I am considering becoming believer but I would appreciate to hear experiences of someone who is wiser than me. Would you mind sharing the reason why you left catholicism?
@@Kenji17171 First of all I grew up in a family that was very poor, however, the mantra of my Hispanic family was, well that's ok because your reward will be after you die. That felt so senseless to me, even as a child. It felt so self defeating that it's ok to accept your awful station in life over a belief system based on a religion developed at a time when a bat was thought to be a bird and a whale was a fish. Simple things brought into question when you learn basic science in 2nd grade. As I grew older it became clear that Hispanic people throughout Latin American countries were poorer because of a belief not much different than my poor mother's. Also there are too many screwed up things in the world to think that there is a just and caring invisible God. Sorry, I know I went longer than necessary.
@@howardmestas7522 thank you for thoughtful answer. Yes religion is really a source of comfort for many people as it is for me. But as an atheist don't you feel weak and depressed during difficult times? Because when I lack faith I feel so powerless. But when I do believe in a God I feel like there is someone who cares and responds to my prayer and it gives me power. If religions are fake whar would be an alternative source foe comfort?
@@Kenji17171there's no alternative if there is no God we simply have to face life the best we can. some people believe in a God or God's because it makes them feel better. I for one cannot do it just because it makes me feel better or less lonely or less alone in the universe. I think we need to make our own lives our own way our own path. and yes it's difficult.
I am an atheist too but I do not boast of having never since entered a church. Churches can be astonishing opera of arts and a mass can be consoling for atheist and preaches can be interesting too.
It's possible that some of disputed letters attributed to Paul were originally written by a legitimate leader of the early Christian movement and were later altered to look like Paul wrote them to add more authority to them.
It is possible, of course. It is also possible that the letters were written by visiting Martians. But lacking any evidence, speculation of this sort is pointless.
@@SteveFergBitbucket Well, I disagree, because there is zero evidence Martians wrote them, and we know these documents came from the early Christian movement and they contain theology that is consistent with Paul and Jesus.
Its a contradiction that they give it weight because its by paul, while knowing that paul did not write it. Yes. Women are to be heard. Nor false paul.
@@Plethorality To this day, I've never met a preacher who would admit that 1 Timothy wasn't written by Paul. Most Christians have never heard that it was a forgery, much less believe it.
There are huge numbers of contradictions in the bible. And there are huge numbers of verses that don't apply to today's world. Any person who tried to follow all of the bible would be imprisoned very quickly, e.g. for walking around killing everybody who works on "the seventh day".
It feels like circumstantial evidences built upon more circumstantial evidences. How much do we know whether these writings were not actually shared amongst the early churches in Paul's lifetime, or the lifetimes of people like Timothy and Titus?
Erm... 1 Cor, which supposedly is a confirmed letter from Paul, also has verses that suggests that women should keep silent in congregation. The context is different, but I would not find it a stretch to think that the writer of 1 Tim and 1 Cor had similar complementarian ideas about women's role in the body.
Apparently the exact place those words appear in 1 Cor varies between manuscripts, leading some to believe it was not the in the original text, but was added as a note in the margin. Later on, when the text was copied, the margin note was copied into different places in the text.
Okay, I’ll take their word that they never before addressed this question “head-on” in the sense that they never titled an episode after it, but has this episode actually said anything new about the subject?
The importance of Ephesians cannot be overstated in terms of the Reformation. It was the cornerstone of Luther's understanding of justification and predestination. Ironic of course that his desire to reorient the Church away from Aquinas and Aristotle towards Paul was centred on a book that was not written by Paul and contradictory to the actual Paul's message in many ways...
My main problem with Dr Ehrman is that I feel he ignores reasonable explanations. Like citing the change in tone between 1 Thess and 2 Thess, when in 2 Thess Paul was correcting an error held by that group, necessitating a change in tone. Or the "thief in the night" argument when it's possible Paul believed in two separate events as many Christians do today (rapture vs day of the Lord). In fact, on this 2nd point my guess would be that Ehrman was raised a post-tribulation rapturist and explains the bias he has in seeing these two events as one, ergo Paul didn't write both letters.
Some stuff I've challenged Bart Ehrman a few times on his twitter, for which he's never replied is Roman's 3:7(Romans and Corinthians is basically the last two books that are genuine Pauline epistles if you read Robert Price's "The Amazing Colossal Apostle") where "Paul" admits he lies for the faith(and there's other passages in the "Pauline Epistles" where he says he used guile to convert people and lied). Basically, Paul of Tarsus disqualifies his account of Jesus Christ by admitting that he lies about it all! Not only that, but in Romans 11:32, we see that Jesus is just a trick to make you believe. "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." - Romans 11:32 This shows Jesus Christ is just like the hell concept used to keep people in line. "Be a good person, or you are going to hell."
Do we even know for sure that Paul was an actual historical person? "We have information about him". But where from, by whom, when exactly? Were not the various Paul epistles written by various early church comrades, including the seven regarded as undisputable? Paul provides many questions. But few legitimate primary sources from the time.
"Romans Proves Paul Lied - Have We Inherited Lies From Our Fathers?" exposes Paul, as well as the horrible records of Judaism and Christianity we have today - and poses the solution that Bart won't address.
Ephesians and Colossians are the main sources of the high Christology of what became orthodox Christian theology, both Catholic and Protestant/evangelical. If Paul DIDN’T write them, Christian theology has been on a VERY dubious historical footing, ever since the 1st century.
The Essene Community pre-dates Jesus and had their own version of a “messiah” who was twofold in nature (one was a “warrior” king, the other was a “spiritual” king. The Jewish Christian sect that came later had their own messiah-Yeshua! Like Pilotus said “Messiahs by the sackful! Along comes Paul!
I'd be careful using the logic of "well the majority of scholars believe", as an authoritative point to convince the listener that X is true. The majority of humans throughout all of human history at any point in time believe in a deity who created all you see, yet Atheists somehow believe otherwise. You can't use that logic when you want and then choose to ignore it at other times.
I watch these podcasts for another reason besides educational ones. I always love to see which eye glass frames Megan will be wearing each week.
I knew I had to follow Dr. Ehrman when I found out that all the income from his blog goes directly to charity-something many overlook, but it’s a teaching of Jesus. Not to mention, I’ve learned so much from him.
Megan love your hair and your glasses today
Exactly what made me sign up for his blog years ago. When I heard him say that I just felt better about signing up for it even if I didn’t read it everyday.
A teaching of Jesus that most "Christians" i know dont follow. Its precisley why i left the faith and feel morally better for doing so.
@ interesting. How does someone else not living up to what they’re supposed to do make you abandon your faith completely? There must be more to it than that.
@@moafro6524I imagine they realized there’s no causal relationship between religious affiliation and moral virtue.
Once people realize they don’t need to believe in a god to be a good person, many see the god concept as superfluous.
This show is just fantastic. Love both Bart and Megan. It is like being at the beginning of Christianity, every time. The salty air, the warm olive trees, the Tyre glass bathrooms without plumbing.
Oooh, never before seen glasses. 👀 love the show!
It’s always nice to open TH-cam and find a fresh episode of this amazing show. Gracias Profe!
Nice glasses, Bart. Nice shirt and hair.
I felt the need to add balance. :-)
He's looking as dashing as ever 😁
😂 Sometimes we watched the news as a family when I was a kid. Afterwards, we would discuss the day's events. My grandmother never said much. Once, I asked her what she thought. She said, "Mr. Cronkite was wearing such a lovely tie."
Nice balance of not too showy and not too dull. Tasteful.
Bart's glasses are often more understated than his most learned observations. Surely there is a connection between the apparatus and the intellect? M.L is often striking as well.
Thank you for going right into the topic and skipping the 8 minutes of small talk!❤
You’ve outdone yourself with those amazing Frames!!!
Very excited for next week’s episode!
As always, fascinating and educational!
The last two episodes I've noticed Bart and Meghan don't spend time chatting at the beginning of the episodes. I'm happy about this change, as I don't have to skip over the beginning of the video.
My thoughts EXACTLY! Now if only she would give up the clown act with the glasses...!
@@g.p.ryecroft must be hard living with no sense of whimsy.
As to the little chit chat at the beginning, Iiked it. Helped show them as normal people.
@@g.p.ryecroft She can do what she want to do.
@@g.p.ryecroft Not going to happen, friend :)
what's the deal tho? 😂@DigitalHammurabi
This was just excellent and ties in nicely with the course on Acts that I attended last weekend.
I guess you and my daughter were talking she has the same type of silly glasses. Good video nice subject there’s a lot to learn from it.
Misquoting Jesus is such an excellent podcast. Thank you so much. I'm not a believer, but I grew up in an Anglican environment so it's important for me to understand the texts and beliefs that have so greatly influenced, for better or worse, the history of the Christian world. Megan Lewis’s thoughtful and articulate questioning and Bart Ehrman’s scholarly explanations are invaluable.
This is one of my favorite shows on TH-cam, I never miss an episode.
Can you please release video on Spotify as well?
Given the likely number of lost letters, it is very possible (if not plausible) that many of the surviving pseudepigraphic letters reflect the teachings of Paul as understood by those churches. Which is why the doctrine may not line up perfectly but certainly appears so similar and compatible that early Christians believed them all authentic.
@@andrelegeant88 Sorry. I think this is inventing a reason in order to support the insupportable.
@@johnmulvey7890 It isn't unsupportable. The doctrine of the Pauline letters collectively is clearly reconcilable, hence why Church Fathers deemed them authentic. The pseudepigraphic ones differ in style, circumstances, or show an evolution of theology beyond Paul's own. We see in Second Corinthians, however, that the churches were absolutely combining and synthesizing legitimate writings of Paul, with the originals then lost.
@andrelegeant88 Probably, Romans is a combination of a number of separate texts.
Great episode!
Very interesting. Thank you
The Temple was The Mall. It was the centre of commerce and entertainment, as were Church markets in the Medieval Europe and as are shopping malls in modern cities. The Jerusalem Temple was where people and businesses converged, all drawn by butchering of animals offered to YHWH. And the Jerusalem Temple was not the only one. The Temple of Artemis in Ephesus was even more so, as were Karnak, Pantheon, Parthenon, Nymphaeum, Temples of Baalbek, and more…
And St Paul's churchyard in Shakespeare's day.
Joseph smith, paul/saul and noble timothy drew ali walk into a bar,
And they tripped over it because it was low
Don't forget Muhammad. Same grift; same source material; different era
I love this channel but I tune in sometimes to see when Megan will upgrade to glasses with Xmas lights.
I like Robert Price's "The Amazing Colossal Apostle" account of Paul and his writings.
Well, Robert Price more or less dismisses Paul of Tarsus as a Christianized Appolonius of Tyana. But, Kenneth Humphries shows quite a lot about the correspondence between Pau of Tarsus and Appolonius of Tyana.
So, I recommend those two books.
@@oker59 Sounds interesting. I've always had a suspicion that Apollonius were a mythologized Paul.
@@kulturkriget Paul of Tarsus is certainly a symbolic figure that combines many different individuals - Simon of Magus/Apollonius of Tyana, a Herodian(in Romans 16:11 he calls himself a Herodian)
@@oker59Apollonius of Tirana was a neopathagorean. Yes the same group that gave us the square root of two. Pythagoras actually faked his own death, went on a sabatical and then returned. Resurrected😎. Price is a nutty as Pythagoras.
Love Megan's glasses. So cool. There is evidence in the Torah that Melchizadekian Presence bread contained hash infused olive oil and psilocybin fungi fine flour and wheat flour. Working on a book to lay out the evidence. The Early Christains broke Melchizadekian Presence bread from house to house getting filled with Holy Spirit and it says they ALL SPAKE THE WORD OF GOD WITH BOLDNESS. Thank you, Bart. Thank you, Megan. Appreciate both of you and your work.
Thank you
27:54.. Great question and something I’ve often wondered about. For example, I’ve often also wondered if scholars thinks that some of the gospels that did not make it into the Bible nevertheless do contain some true facts about the historical Jesus and his ministry.
Oooh! Where can we get the Ishtar gate print in Megan's background??
I saw a print you can buy of the Istar gate on a website called Allposters.
See right there... You two were surprised how many people watch the show instead of just listening to it. How are we to be delighted by Megan's glasses by just listening to it?
I love Megan. I love serious scholarship.
I have been fascinated with Paul since he was a figure on the flannel board at Sunday School.
Thank you.
I must say something rather heretical, but I believe that Paul did a great deal of work that was anti-Jesus in spirit and I could never swallow his vision on the road to Damascus.
Scum
Of the worst kind.
Would you say anti-christ?
What do you mean by anti-Jesus?
@@alextakhmasian1880 In Pauls' writings, he quotes almost nothing from Jesus's sayings ... his focus is on belief in the resurrection, but very little if anything about what Jesus actually taught. I think Bart has done a show on this at some point, contrasting Paul with James.
@@mannymann321Paul practically labels James and his watchers the Anti-Christ.
The difference between Jesus and Christ was Jesus was a Jew who died. Christ was Paul’s imagination of a sacrifice to god that was accepted and was free to become the messiah in a second kind of body. Christ is from the Greek Xristos, which means the rubbed one. Obviously his anointment to Paul was a heavenly one.
This is mysticism heavily flavored with Hekhalot, as we see in 2 cor 12.
Love the glasses Megan.
Come for the interesting subjects, stay for the fascinating glasses. :)
noticing the stripes : large versus small, horizontal versus vertical, as I listen to the content
Noooo, now I can’t unsee 😂
I think John wrote them. Maybe George, but probably not Ringo.
Megan, definitely the oddest glasses so far.
We have to admire the strength and tenacity to wear new glasses every podcast. I guess there is a big collection so far. Probably will be donated in the future. It is so difficult to have in a house so many glasses.
Agree. But apart from her weird glasses and hair colors, she looks very nice.
@@Bob94390 yes, but we are on a podcast about the Bible not about glasses. It is somehow weird.
@@VSP4591 You, have a point. The Fable is much more weird. But but just because something is weird, it should be allowed to comment on something else that is weird. It must be allowed to comment on something that is broadcast as a video.
@@Bob94390 ok!
OMG I just remembered Timmy Mallett.
I'm not sure if it has been done but would love a discussion on the Magi. Always been fascinated by them since a kid. I think their inclusion in Matthew was genius in the sense of bestowing majesty and deference on the newborn Jesus. But there is something intriguing about the whole world they introduce on the edges of the new testament.
I heard about Saint Paul. He was a weird guy who convinced himself and his followers that his brain was delivering secret messages from beyond.
Where does it say that he received direct revelations?
@restjbo well, he claimed to have knowledge from God. He asserted that he knew what God wanted and demanded. Even in this video, Dr. Erhman stated that Paul was told by God that pagans could worship Jesus. Paul claimed to have had visions from God. Paul was supposedly converted in an experience with God.
Yep, just like mahommed.
The vast majority of the world have fallen for the con of two madmen.
@@restjboOn the road to Antioch. On the road to Damascus, etc.
@@DaveCM "supposedly"? Meaning ......
Wohoo new glasses! 🤩 That being said, thank you for creating this podcast! This provides so much important information and historical context to these religious texts that really, for the most part, *should* be common knowledge for people to fully comprehend these faiths that are currently related to these texts. Especially given how societally and culturally influencial they have been and still are. Regadless of whether people believe in a higher power themselves, better understanding would enable people to make more conscious decisions when it comes to these topics
On the topic of divorce.. That may be considered bad in the context of 1st century Judea. If a man dumps his wife to get a new one, probably younger, then that's potentially devastating for the woman left behind, without funds, without a husband. That's akin to adultery, I can see that. But fast forward 2000 years and we really don't have the same situation anymore, where we know that there are extremely good reasons why it's better to divorce for everyone involved. Plus nobody is left destitute in the process. It's a teaching that doesn't transfer well to the present day without understanding the historical context.
Ok, you're great but the glasses are an overstatement this time. You could even rock some pearl framed with side chains but you really don't have to do it
In catholic school it was explained that no one could commit the unforgivable sin.
To do it, you had to understand what you were doing.
If you understood what you were doing, you would not do it.
That 1500 year headstart gave them an advantage...
A week or two ago, Bart recommended the Anchor Biblical Dictionary. I bought these six very expensive books, even though I couldn't afford them. Now I'm going to give this dictionary a review.
The font size is so small I can't read them without a magnifying glass. This dictionary must be very extensive due to the small font and high number of pages. I'm not sure I'll be able to utilize it. To be fair, I'm an old man with only one eye. But that eye works fine. Even if the font was twice as big, it would be a challenge to read. I'll try to use it for research, but it might be difficult.
It is much easier to use Google.
Mostly agree, although still think good case can be made for Colossians being the 8th genuine letters. Thank you for your knowlege.
Everyone shut up about the glasses. You can easily listen to this without staring at Megan.
But I really want to.
She is much more attractive than Bart. Apart from the glasses. :-)
The bottomline question is, why do we need to accept and obey Paul in the first place? The common argument is that he was supposed to be "inspired by God". But what does inspired by God even mean? That's the problem. God never told people that Paul's letter to the Corinthians is supposed to be Holy. And if Paul's letters were inspired by God, how come some of them were pseudographical? Why would God inspire a fake author to pass himself as someone who is not really who he claims to be?
4:50 I'd like to ask how do we know who Paul is.
2:20 "It's better to believe in reality than in non-reality."
Very true! And when we're faced with questions which we lack the information to answer, it's best to admit that in those situations we simply _don't know._
Given the almost complete lack of record keeping during the first 2 centuries CE, the known forging of texts, assignments of names as authorship long after the fact, the re-writing, the translating, etc. I don't see how we can be completely confident "Paul", whoever he was, wrote any of the letters, or that the letters we have from the 3rd and 4th century surviving texts are in fact the letters he wrote, if he indeed wrote some.
To me the rational and honest thing to do is to give only so much confidence to our conclusions as the evidence warrants, no matter how tempted we might be to present a complete story.
Most of the stories and characters in the Fable are of course just fantasies. But Paul seems to be an exception. Many concrete details about his life are given, with relatively few contradictions after all the fake letters have been weeded out. Some of what is written about him, fits with real historical events. The stories about him are mostly quite plausible. There are even some mentioning about him by non-Christians from almost the same time as he supposedly lived. The general consensus is that he was a real person.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle
How cool would it be to find missing letters?
There is a question that is not addressed here.
Do we have the original letters?
Bart say that we have letters written by Paul’s hand. Do we? Do we have the original letters?
Or are we basing all the assumptions on hand copies of copies that could have been altered?
Bits and pieces exist. Unknown if any true originals. Furthermore, lots of content only exists in what are most certainly "later copies". I've spend a long time obsessing over one particular verse which I despise. I've found that the earliest papyrus copy of (some of it) dates to 200-400. Romans is generally assumed to be written around 60 AD. So, the earlier papyrus (of that section) is quite a bit older than the generally agreed date of writing.
So, to answer your question in the most honest way that I can... We most certainly don't have solid, complete originals.
Everything is just copies of copies, with lots of differences between various copies. If you have one complete bible with chosen variations, and another book listing all the found deviations from the chosen variations, the second book would be much thicker.
Those novelty specs are the reason I'm only 'listening' to this podcast.
Catholic masses are cespools of "undisputed facts" of Paul's letters. I was forced to attend church until my mother died when I was 10 years old, and I have never stepped into a church since. I am 68 now and a proud atheist.
Sir what made you an atheist? I a am 24 years old man and I am considering becoming believer but I would appreciate to hear experiences of someone who is wiser than me. Would you mind sharing the reason why you left catholicism?
@@Kenji17171 First of all I grew up in a family that was very poor, however, the mantra of my Hispanic family was, well that's ok because your reward will be after you die. That felt so senseless to me, even as a child. It felt so self defeating that it's ok to accept your awful station in life over a belief system based on a religion developed at a time when a bat was thought to be a bird and a whale was a fish. Simple things brought into question when you learn basic science in 2nd grade. As I grew older it became clear that Hispanic people throughout Latin American countries were poorer because of a belief not much different than my poor mother's.
Also there are too many screwed up things in the world to think that there is a just and caring invisible God. Sorry, I know I went longer than necessary.
@@howardmestas7522 thank you for thoughtful answer. Yes religion is really a source of comfort for many people as it is for me. But as an atheist don't you feel weak and depressed during difficult times? Because when I lack faith I feel so powerless. But when I do believe in a God I feel like there is someone who cares and responds to my prayer and it gives me power. If religions are fake whar would be an alternative source foe comfort?
@@Kenji17171there's no alternative if there is no God we simply have to face life the best we can. some people believe in a God or God's because it makes them feel better. I for one cannot do it just because it makes me feel better or less lonely or less alone in the universe. I think we need to make our own lives our own way our own path. and yes it's difficult.
I am an atheist too but I do not boast of having never since entered a church.
Churches can be astonishing opera of arts and a mass can be consoling for atheist and preaches can be interesting too.
Difficult to discuss the subject without any reference to Marcion. But he just did.
It's possible that some of disputed letters attributed to Paul were originally written by a legitimate leader of the early Christian movement and were later altered to look like Paul wrote them to add more authority to them.
It is possible, of course. It is also possible that the letters were written by visiting Martians. But lacking any evidence, speculation of this sort is pointless.
@@SteveFergBitbucket Well, I disagree, because there is zero evidence Martians wrote them, and we know these documents came from the early Christian movement and they contain theology that is consistent with Paul and Jesus.
Doesn't it seem to be a contradiction for churches to preach that 1 Timothy is the word of God and still let women speak in church?
Its a contradiction that they give it weight because its by paul, while knowing that paul did not write it. Yes. Women are to be heard. Nor false paul.
@@Plethorality To this day, I've never met a preacher who would admit that 1 Timothy wasn't written by Paul. Most Christians have never heard that it was a forgery, much less believe it.
@@nomad100hd😂 true
There are huge numbers of contradictions in the bible. And there are huge numbers of verses that don't apply to today's world. Any person who tried to follow all of the bible would be imprisoned very quickly, e.g. for walking around killing everybody who works on "the seventh day".
I swear, Megan has more pairs of glasses than I have T-shirts.
13:03 - hey, it's James and John the sons of Zebedee! What are they doing in an advert about Peter and Paul?
It feels like circumstantial evidences built upon more circumstantial evidences. How much do we know whether these writings were not actually shared amongst the early churches in Paul's lifetime, or the lifetimes of people like Timothy and Titus?
Leave it to Bart to say he understood the crazymaker Paul.
Erm... 1 Cor, which supposedly is a confirmed letter from Paul, also has verses that suggests that women should keep silent in congregation. The context is different, but I would not find it a stretch to think that the writer of 1 Tim and 1 Cor had similar complementarian ideas about women's role in the body.
Many believe that verses were added to Corinthians to make it support a certain anti woman viewpoint, which was not his general opinion.
Apparently the exact place those words appear in 1 Cor varies between manuscripts, leading some to believe it was not the in the original text, but was added as a note in the margin. Later on, when the text was copied, the margin note was copied into different places in the text.
Okay, I’ll take their word that they never before addressed this question “head-on” in the sense that they never titled an episode after it, but has this episode actually said anything new about the subject?
Those glasses are looking more elaborate 😂
More letters of St. Paul would be great, but finding writings by non-orthodox early Christians would be even better.
The importance of Ephesians cannot be overstated in terms of the Reformation. It was the cornerstone of Luther's understanding of justification and predestination. Ironic of course that his desire to reorient the Church away from Aquinas and Aristotle towards Paul was centred on a book that was not written by Paul and contradictory to the actual Paul's message in many ways...
My main problem with Dr Ehrman is that I feel he ignores reasonable explanations. Like citing the change in tone between 1 Thess and 2 Thess, when in 2 Thess Paul was correcting an error held by that group, necessitating a change in tone. Or the "thief in the night" argument when it's possible Paul believed in two separate events as many Christians do today (rapture vs day of the Lord). In fact, on this 2nd point my guess would be that Ehrman was raised a post-tribulation rapturist and explains the bias he has in seeing these two events as one, ergo Paul didn't write both letters.
Megan is class, a born duchess
You can say same with most historical documents
Some stuff I've challenged Bart Ehrman a few times on his twitter, for which he's never replied is Roman's 3:7(Romans and Corinthians is basically the last two books that are genuine Pauline epistles if you read Robert Price's "The Amazing Colossal Apostle") where "Paul" admits he lies for the faith(and there's other passages in the "Pauline Epistles" where he says he used guile to convert people and lied).
Basically, Paul of Tarsus disqualifies his account of Jesus Christ by admitting that he lies about it all!
Not only that, but in Romans 11:32, we see that Jesus is just a trick to make you believe. "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." - Romans 11:32
This shows Jesus Christ is just like the hell concept used to keep people in line. "Be a good person, or you are going to hell."
Man, those glasses need a big "2025" on top of them for New Years.
Megan, I see you have been listening to some Elton John music 😂🇨🇦
Those glasses though.
"Zeroth Corinthians"?
In Corinthians Paul speaks the same way about women as he does in Timothy
I don't know, but he did write Hey Jude.
Did Megan not see her right eye black dot?
an unusual amount of ads today.....
0th Corinthians ?
Do we even know for sure that Paul was an actual historical person? "We have information about him". But where from, by whom, when exactly? Were not the various Paul epistles written by various early church comrades, including the seven regarded as undisputable? Paul provides many questions. But few legitimate primary sources from the time.
It's Election Day glasses.🎉
❤❤
R G Price argues that Jesus was a literary device inspired by the letters of Paul.
The epistles of Paul and Seneca are true, or at least it is true that they existed.
In fact, Seneca became monotheistic in his later years.
Don't you mean the letters that Maricon actually used?
Both second AND first Corinthians are amalgamations of letters.
"Romans Proves Paul Lied - Have We Inherited Lies From Our Fathers?" exposes Paul, as well as the horrible records of Judaism and Christianity we have today - and poses the solution that Bart won't address.
AFAIK Paul wrote to Lady Madonna
If he did write Ephesians, don’t you have to give him Colossians as one seems to copy the other?
Ephesians and Colossians are the main sources of the high Christology of what became orthodox Christian theology, both Catholic and Protestant/evangelical. If Paul DIDN’T write them, Christian theology has been on a VERY dubious historical footing, ever since the 1st century.
I'm guessing Peter hated Paul because he was always getting robbed to fatten Paul's salary.
Isn't Paul, Marcion's alter ego?
The Essene Community pre-dates Jesus and had their own version of a “messiah” who was twofold in nature (one was a “warrior” king, the other was a “spiritual” king. The Jewish Christian sect that came later had their own messiah-Yeshua! Like Pilotus said “Messiahs by the sackful! Along comes Paul!
11:19
Dislikes are coming in from the crusaders!
Are trendy eyeglassess help viewers understand the topic better?
You should be sponsored by now and laters
I'd be careful using the logic of "well the majority of scholars believe", as an authoritative point to convince the listener that X is true.
The majority of humans throughout all of human history at any point in time believe in a deity who created all you see, yet Atheists somehow believe otherwise.
You can't use that logic when you want and then choose to ignore it at other times.
Paul did not meet Jesus and was not trained by him before Jesus died. How could he convince people that he got the right teaching of Jesus?
What's this? There was someone more insane than Paul? This is news.
Not the first comment
Nor the last
There's always next time.