What Did the Prophet Isaiah Say About Jesus?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ย. 2024
- Visit www.bartehrman... to shop from Bart Ehrman’s online courses and get a special discount by using code: MJPODCAST on all courses.
Was the prophet Isaiah pointing to the coming of the messiah, seven centuries before Jesus? Since the beginning of Christianity, his followers have claimed that he did; and some passages of the ancient prophet certainly seem to be advanced notices of what would happen in Jesus's life and death. If these are not predictions of Jesus, how can they be understood? If they do reflect his story, how can that be explained?
Megan asks Bart:
Why do you think it’s important to look at whether the book of Isaiah has any relationship to Jesus?
What can you tell us about the book of Isaiah? When and where was it written, and what happens in it?
Why do scholars think it was written?
How would it have been used? Would it have been read for comfort and solace, or instruction, or something else?
Why has the book of Isaiah been important for Christian communities?
Is Jesus likely to have seen himself as fulfilling Isaiah’s prophecies?
Since prophecies in the Hebrew bible were so tied into current events, how did it come to be important to Christian communities hundreds of years later?
Are Christians today wrong to think that the Bible predicts Jesus?
I love Bart Ehrman. This is an individual who has spent decades in the study of textual criticism of the New Testament. Yet for all for his learning there is a genuine humbleness and a sincere desire to share what he has learned. His jovial nature endears him even more ...
Humility not humbleness! Sorry to be pedantic.
But why did he not reference the Jewish tradition and scholarship on this, is he more intelligent that the owners of the scripture?
@@keithsmith3678 Humbleness is a noun that means being modest, unpretentious, or lacking in pride or arrogance
@@innocentodinkemere4597 "Owners" of the "scripture"? They altered the texts to befit their changing hopes and beliefs, as they ignored what God said to start with, what the prophets said, and finally accused Jesus of doing what they did - as they deny their part and blame him and christains. See "The Origins of Judaism"; "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible" (for the thousands of variances in Isaiah); and the charges against Jesus that were untrue to him, but telling the truth on their lies. Onediscipletoanother
seems so!
My favourite thing about Tuesdays..love these insights
Well No!! when Isaiah is completely read you can't take out that portion 53 because all is explained , No Plot holes that allow the Christian misunderstanding.
It sounds so impressive when Christians say that Jesus fulfilled all these prophecies. Then you actually look them up one by one and they're all about as specific as a fortune cookie.
It is all re-interpreted stuff nothing to do with Jesus. The Church is preaching strong stuff.
Jesus fulfilled zilch!! He was an impostor if he ever existed. The bible is a hoax!
@@ottosponring5534
An alternate, non fundamentalist view:
Early in life, I became intrigued by Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount and began studying him carefully. Although I was then willing to believe the gospel accounts of Jesus’ miraculous birth, I soon realized that, contrary to several late gospel traditions, Jesus’ significance had not been revealed to anyone ahead of his birth - neither to his parents, nor to shepherds, nor to magi, nor to John the Baptist, nor even to Jesus himself as a child.
Instead, according to the early Gospel of Mark, Jesus’ carpenter life in Nazareth had seemed quite ordinary to everyone, including even his mother and siblings, until the day he left to hear the fiery message of a self-professed prophet named John who was audaciously baptizing repentant people in the wastelands of Judea. Soon afterward, to all Nazareth’s surprise, Jesus suddenly appeared in nearby Capernaum proclaiming the nearness of God’s Kingdom while healing sicknesses and “casting out demons.” Thinking he had lost his mind, Jesus’ mother and brothers went there to try to fetch him home, and scholars came rushing from Jerusalem to accuse him of exorcising demons with the help of Satan.
Nobody knew what had happened to alter Jesus’ life so profoundly - not even the baptizer at whose hands it happened! - and Jesus kept the experience shrouded in secrecy even from his closest disciples until finally they themselves concluded that, as Peter excitedly told him, “You are the Messiah!” whereupon Jesus strictly forbade them to tell anyone that, and then - to their horror - began insisting that he must soon be brutally executed, a statement Peter adamantly rejected, arguing that this could never happen to the Messiah, and causing Jesus to erupt at him, “Get behind me, Satan!”
That anguished outburst suggests what really happened, for only then would Jesus have told his disciples that he along with others had humbly submitted to John’s baptism for sinners in the Jordan, and as he was emerging from the river, a voice revealed to him from heaven something so disturbing that he must struggle against it then and afterward.
The voice told him that he not only was the glorious messianic Son of God expected by many, but also the sacrificially redemptive Isaian servant expected by no one - a revelation so shocking to Jesus that he would immediately be “tempted by Satan” against the necessity of his dying, and at the moment of Peter’s objection, and especially in Gethsemane the last night of his life.
I am a retired pastor of The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) now living in Normal, IL. I am willing to discuss these matters with anyone at any time in any venue, and may be reached at jamezbozwel@aol.com.
It's in common with pseudoscience. They don't have a single good piece of evidence, so instead they pile up plenty of very bad one.
They don't seem to understand that 200 times 0 is still 0.
@@ottosponring5534😢
..
Thare was a time when I heard the phrase "the word of God", that I sat up in my seat and didn't ask any questions. After listening to Professor Ehrman, I now stand up and ask "How do you know that's the word of God?" The silence has been deafening!! 😇
No no. It’s WordaGod. Spoken as one word. Over and over. Then you can move on to saying, “Is it Biblical?” Over and over. You can intersperse these with “We live in a fallen world” and “God is an awesome God.” If someone comes to you for help with a problem that’s bothering them you can listen intently and after they have poured out their soul you can say piously and dismissively , “I know the answer. Jesus.” Then you can tell the person to read the Bible and “things will happen.” Like some kind of magic trick. It is important to assume this person has not ever read the Bible, has never given Christianity or anything religious a thought and is not “saved” as you are. I think after all of this you go and put a notch in your bedpost or something.
Wow! Thank you, dear Bart for another mind-stretching analysis of the Bible. My college class on the Bible, at Northwestern University in the 1950s, was taught by a Methodist minister. We learned that there were two Isaiah’s. It was informative to learn that, sometime during the six decades since I took the course, it became clear to scholars that there were at least three authors, living at different times. However, of more profound significance is your analysis of Isaiah in light of the actual historic events taking place at the time the book, or books, were written, and how those events provide a much more obvious and rational explanation of what the author was really saying. What a revelation! Our teacher, a devout and truly lovely man, had no doubt about the prophetic nature of Isaiah. Whether we really accepted this view or not, as students our class was in no position to argue otherwise. Now, more than 60 years later, because of you, I understand these key passages of the Bible in the bright light of a new day.
Great episode. I'd love to see Bart do more on alleged OT prophecies, including supposed messianic references in the Psalms.
I’m glad Megan is getting her own well deserved episode.
Is she getting intensely more attractive (brilliant women, wow) or is it just me? 😂
Right? Some inner light of attraction just pushes through her more now, can't be unnoticed. I bet cause of how aligned with God she becomes.
34:40 - 25:30 "These authors were not thinking about Jesus.They were thinking about situations in their own day. Does that mean it's wrong for Christians to think about the Bible that way? No, it's not wrong… It just wouldn't be a historical reading of the Bible. It would not be trying to see what the author is trying to say. It would be engaging in a religious exercise, a theological exercise, that for many Christians is very positive, where even if you recognize that Isaiah is not talking about a future Messiah, still for you the Bible is a book that somehow conveys the Word of God and somehow God communicates to you through the Bible, so reading the Bible that way could enrich your understanding of how the Bible works for not just historical content but relevance for the plan of God's salvation."
This was a very long winded and extremely diplomatic way for Bart Ehrman to say, "Christians are misinterpreting the Book of Isaiah."
That's not what Bart said
Actually I think he is saying the opposite. Christians are not historically interpreting the Book of Isaiah. But the Bible is not a history book. It is a book meant to provide spiritual guidance to people who already believe, and in that sense, Christians are interpreting the Book of Isaiah correctly.
Not at all. What he is saying is that the book of Isaiah, like all works of literature, can be interpreted in many ways, with no one of them being correct or incorrect. People are perfectly at liberty to interpret works of literature with evidence to reach plausible conclusions as they wish. This concept is at the heart of all literary study.
And, as a side note, not everyone (and certainly not all scholars) are on a mission to prove that Christians are wrong and stupid. This is as exhausting an obsession as any. The world is full of nuance and complexity, and that's what makes it interesting.
I love Bart but he sure is a know-it-all.
The best way to put it is this: you can read a sacred text and develop it further to make it aligned more with being both relevant and timeless (sometimes through relevance, in cases such as new messiah). Sure, if one preserves the words, the development is semantic, and can be called an interpretation. I personally mostly try to find the original meaning behind the words. Sometimes the Christians were aligned, sometimes they weren't, but Christianity has definitely saved Judaism, which goals and methods have been pinnacular catalysts of human civilization. I'm going to have a lunch now.
Excellent!
This seems to be a continuing major source of confusion for many Christians, and I think Bart does a VERY good job of sorting it all out. Many Christians presume large sections and specific passages in Isaiah "obviously" were predictions about Jesus. However, when examined closely, each these passages actually seems to have been talking about someone else - some specific person who had already been born and lived many centuries before the birth of Christ - when these parts of Isaiah were being written. The author(s) of Isaiah clearly had something (and someone) quite different in mind when they wrote these scriptures than what modern Christians generally want to make them be about.
stretching credulity somewhat to take something that was written in or around 700 BCE or 550 BCE as a prediction?.. and as indicated, stick your finger anywhere in the bible and 'interpret' it to suit... 1 Cor 14:33 KJV says god is not the author of confusion.... I beg to disagree....
So in the end, there's no barometer for truth. You can just say, "the Bible says what ever I want to believe it says," no matter the historical context of the author b/c God communicates in personal and mysterious ways.
Yes. That's why we have so many different denominations and even religions that draw on these same scriptures.
That’s admirable to raise so much money for charity. Especially when you are not yourself very rich
This has been one of my favorite episodes because of Barts answer when Megan asks if Christian’s are wrong to think the Bible predicts Jesus.
Completely agree. I moderate a Christian theology/mythology reading group which is made up of believers, sceptics and non-believers (like myself), and it is all too common for such discussions to descend into 'debunking' and debating, which achieves absolutely nothing. The world is complex and nuanced, and we should interpret (and accept) it as such.
Megan asks the best questions!
I am generally turned of by religious podcasts but love this one.
Getting the truth out is crucial, thanks Bart and Megan.
Since I watched this TH-cam video about Isaiah, I’ve been inundated with videos about Isaiah 53 all from Christians telling Jews how wrong we are and we don’t have the ability or the right to interpret our own Prophets. The most outrageous was some kid preacher who claimed Jews are not allowed to read Isaiah in synagogues.
oh no - by watching them I guess you've reinforced the algorithm to show you even more!
Isaiah's prophecy operates on two levels: an immediate reference to Israel and a greater, ultimate fulfillment in Jesus. The language in Isaiah 53, describing an individual bearing the sins of others, seems to fit Jesus more directly than the nation of Israel. There's been a number of ancient Jewish interpretations that also recognized the servant as a messianic figure even prior to Christianity
I love Megan's style
She must have a big collection of eye glasses.
@@BunnyWatson-k1w
As opposed to beer glasses?
{:o:O:}
@@Jaymastia
*_"still Isaiah points to Jesus"_*
No he doesn't.
Ancient kings employed prophets, sooth sayers and seers, not to hear obscure poetry of something that might happen in 600 or 1000 year's time, but to learn what to do *NOW* or in the next couple of months about that hostile king over there who is posing a very real, clear and present danger.
{:o:O:}
@@BunnyWatson-k1w
*_"She must have a big collection of eye glasses."_*
What, as opposed to beer glasses? 🤣🤣
Why the redundancy? You must be American, because everyone else knows from the context that "glasses" are worn for the eyes. 🤓 No one else says "eye glasses" in any language! 😄😄 I bet you don't say "eye monocle"! 🧐
{:o:O:}
As someone who read the Bible in the middle grades, i feel like there's so much more to Isaiah than Christology.
There's a lot going on on Isaiah. Ezekiel too.
You could write an entire book discussing each and I'm sure people have.
@Jesus_Lied_ReadTheBible
You really think the “offspring” in that verse is literal children?
@@edward1412This person is just trolling.
@Jesus_Lied_ReadTheBibleHow do you know?
EVERYTHING in Isaiah, and indeed in the whole Hebrew Bible, is other than Christology.
Megan’s hair is stunning in this one 🤩 🦋🌸👓These podcasts are truly fascinating, the topics are so interesting, their voices are great, and their amiable chemistry excellent for a podcast but Megan’s style alone makes me want to watch these via yt 😁
As important as Isaiah 53 is to Christians, why didn't Jesus himself ever mention Isaiah 53 as a reference to him?
Valid point.
Jesus never mentioned a lot during his life. However the recorded history is all we have. It does not negate Christian beliefs that still function today.
Jesus was a first century Jew, so the idea of a suffering messiah wouldn't have occurred to him.
@@lazykbysLuke 24:25-27 ESV
[25] And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! [26] Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” [27] And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
@@DasWortwurdeFleisch That bit comes after Jesus's resurrection, so as a non-Christian I find it unconvincing. Even if I did, the passage is so vague it could mean anything you want it to mean.
I was always amazed that Isaiah made specific predictions about things that Cyrus King of Persia would do centuries later. Makes me feel a little silly now that I didn't think of the most logical explanation for how he was able to do that.
I know right. Same here.
@@trina2100 Isaiah was always one of those books that I didn't get much from (I read it roughly every 9 months - 1 year in my daily Bible reading) because I felt like I didn't understand what it was talking about a lot of the time. I just read chapters 40-45 again, and it makes so much more sense when you realize it was written after the Babylonian captivity. I really think the Bible is much more interesting as a collection of literature when you take off the fundamentalist glasses.
Prophesy is one of the main reasons why I’m a Christian.
@@edward1412 you probably shouldn't watch this video, then.
@@montagdpI did, and it didn't convince me otherwise.
yesss the one we've all been waiting for, Bart interviews Megan!
Blessings upon you! Dishes are done and I’ve learned some things. Amazing what ends up being believed when ardent preachers are intent on picking verses to make their preferred point.
I suspect Paul was working on or studying Isaiah when he had his revelation of Jesus. His vision of Jesus is a recognition of Jesus fitting in his mind the concepts of Isaiah. Suddenly it all 'made sense' to him in his current times.
In Acts 8:26-40, Philip attributed Isaiah 53 to Jesus, so that’s what the earliest Christians also believed.
People love patterns, and our brains are pattern-recognition machines. We are fascinated by the idea that people can recognize something coming in the future, which is impossible because it has yet to happen, and educated guessing does not count.
Looking forwards to the interview with Megan next week! I hope you will ask/answer how Megan reconciles a critical understanding of Biblical history with being a Christian (as well as all the cool Mesopotamian stuff of course). I don’t understand how that works, but would like to 🙏🏻👍
That sounds like a good question.
Though of course, most biblical scholars are Christians yet hold to the consensus views that Bart discusses. Even Bart has claimed that none of his scholarly views changed when he stopped being a believer.
@@natew.7951 yeah, I’ve heard Bart and others say this kind of thing. But I don’t really get it. If you know that Jesus didn’t really resurrect, that he didn’t really say most of the things attributed to him in the Bible, that Paul was just hallucinating and what he believed was quite different from Jesus, etc., how do you go on being a Christian? I’m not even sure what being a Christian means if that’s your understanding of the world. So I would be very interested in hearing Megan explain how she sees all that.
@@willmosse3684
But how can scholarship prove Paul was hallucinating?
@@willmosse3684I suppose it depends on what you base your faith on. If you believe that Jesus died for other people's sins (and as a historian, there really isn't any way of proving/disproving that) and that the New Testament was written by people who were inspired by his greatness but weren't concerned about getting the facts right, then I see no reason why you couldn't remain a Christian.
@@willmosse3684That's why I don't really believe Megan is saved.
Very handsome of Bart to be this calm.❤
The greatest challenge of this world is knowing enough about a subject to think you are right, but not knowing enough about the subject to know you are wrong…
What a great quote!!!!! I love it!
33:17 to 36:26 Very important passage, and a very good thing to highlight!
The summer heat is even brutal for many Floridians, it's the rest of the year that puts a smile on our face. You have to be a bit of a snow bird to follow the mild weather where ever it may be.
him who was given dominion over fish of the sea, and fowl of the air blessed and told go, and ...more to now...Rate our grade, thus far.
LOL! You are so right, Bart, when you about 33 minutes into the podcast, say the bible can be used for many things. I came to think about when my youngst startede to walk. He had this little walk-wagon from IKEA, and to prevent it from tipping over, I had to put some heavy books in it. So he walked around with a couple of bibels and my greek and hebrew dictionaries. He is now 10, but I still love to tell that the bible helped my son to walk. :-)
“It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they’ve been fooled” -Mark Twain
As always this has been immensely fascinating!
“Is it Jesus…..” Megan 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Im looking forward to the Megan interview! I want to hear about her expertise! But also, in general, ive been thinking it would be nice to hear more from her about what she thinks about all this stuff. I know its mainly Bart's podcast, but i like the idea of a little more dialogue.
Especially considering she's a Christian.
One of your best, professor.
There's a very interesting episode on Dr Markus Vinzent's research on Paul on History Valley. Perhaps do an episode about it? And when are we getting the Assyriology with Dr Megan Lewis episodes 😂?
Getting Assyriology with Megan next week they said!
Another fantastic session podcast . Absolutely fascinating. 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
The most important lesson I have learned from Bart, which bears repeating in the context of this video is that the (Christian) Bible is not a book that is supposed to convince you to be a Christian. Christianity existed and was spreading before the Bible was compiled. Believing in the "Creed" statement is what makes you a Christian. The Bible is intended as a book to be read by the faithful and to provide spiritual and moral guidance. So finding things that historically don't add up in the Bible doesn't somehow 'invalidate' Christianity per se.
Megan is a highly intelligent Lady and bart ehrman is very ìntetesting scholar to listen to 😊
How does he not bring up Jesus directly reading the scroll of Isaiah in Luke chapter 4. And he says “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing”…..
The Catholic Church has based the entire Mary cult on a miss translation if Isaiah.
What the Church has done and what Christians still do with Isaiah is no better than the way people treat Nosradamus's so-called prophecies.
I really like how Bart responds to the last question. That’s where the rubber hits the road. As a believer myself I fully concede that seeing Jesus in Isaiah is not supported historically, but read through the window of faith, those passages can still be very powerful.
What is "the window of faith "?😮
@@andrewmays3988 strange question. Are you a bot?
@@brettkeeler8822 I don't think they're a bot. I second the question
@@its-niaaaa_ 100% a bot. It never even responded. “Window” = your worldview. So “window of faith” means having a believing worldview. Point being, these passages can be powerful for believers, even if not supported by the historical evidence.
@@brettkeeler8822That's a conversation I had with one of my mentors. We both concede that historically, it's not immediately clear, but spiritually, it's much more so.
It took 50 minutes to say "Nothing, because Isaiah couldn't see the future." 😂
Did he say that though?
@Zachary_Setzer no. Lol. But by the end it's all about the projection of later Christians onto the original text. Isaiah never prophesied a martyred Messiah.
50 interesting minutes where you learned a great deal on how to argue against everything a fundamentalist evangelical Christian will throw at you to prove the prophecies were real
@rogeriopenna9014 oh no doubt! Watched the whole episode. Loved it. Was just being cheeky. Us brits can be that way sometimes.
@@rogeriopenna9014 Wondering if we watched the same video. The one I watched was focused on the historical context and what the author meant by what he wrote. A Christian fundamentalist would be happy to say Isaiah may not have intended or even known that he was prophesying about the messiah in addition to speaking to his own era.
The author's intention doesn't rule out the fundamentalist view at all. Bart acknowledges as much around 20 minutes into the video. The context a fundamentalist is using is simply different from the original author's and original audience's context.
I love these two. Great listening ❤
Thank you.
Very interesting and informative 😮😊
Weather? It’s going to be 110F today where I live. 🥵
Very clear and concise
Wikipedia, which is a faultless encyclopedia, says that Jesus quotes Isaiah 53 to himself in Luke 22:37, and in Mark in 10:45, Jesus alludes to this passage. So, there, Bart
Paul, the first corporate franchise.
Actually, Orthodox Tewahedo Churches (Ethiopia & Eritra) have different New Testament, they have 32 book in the New Testament and 81 in the whole Bible, it´s the largest canon in the number of books.
Stop this lie😂😂😂 They have 27 books of NT. I am Ethiopian.
Referring to minute 41:40, the order in which the books are arranged in Martin Luther's translation is different from the catholic editions,
because Martin Luther recognized that the "Epistle to the Hebrews" was not written by the Apostle Paul,
and because he did not like Epistle of James (he called it "an epistle made of straw, without any Good News in it").
Therefore, Martin Luther shifted these two epistles farther towards the end (between "3rd John" and "Jude").
Exactly what year was anything written down attributed to Isaiah - and what year in history was it taught to people .
Life on earth ia a TEST for human, not the goal.
Happy ever after doesn't exist on earth.
Our current life is simply a test.
As far as we know, this is it! Not a test, not a dress rehearsal. There is no goal that anyone can demonstrate with certainty.
How did you figure that out? Did you get a postcard in the mail from Educational Testing Service for the Universe (but postmarked Princeton, NJ?
A test of what?
I love these podcasts.
We cant demonize anyone for their personal opinion. Bart has his. You have yours. To each his own.
"What did the prophet Isaiah say about Jesus?"
-Nothing.
*Roll credits*
BTW, can't wait to hear Bart interviewing Megan!
LOL I was probably one of the ones talking about Florida. Because it is literally hell down here. And yes, hell does exist, and it is Florida.
There is absolutely nothing in Isaiah about a god-man aka Jesus. The Servant is Israel!
Would love to hear what Dr. Ehrman thinks of Isaiah 18.
Digging into the question more ptoperly, by whom and by what the suffering, that was taken over by the Servant, was caused would lead to answer why Christ "had" to take the cross
Thank you
And Megan you read the
Bible passage beautifully ❤
With his philantrophic actions, Bart has earned his place in heaven! 😊
/s
The idea that Isaiah 53 was "messianic" was actually somewhat common before the time of Jesus. There is a scholar who has written extensively on this.
It is messianic but it is not about the messiah. It's about the gentiles in the messianic age. The gentiles realize their mistake and how the Jews suffered because of their transgressions. 53 is basically their confession in the form of a soliloquy. This is a future event, which you can also see in Zechariah 8,23:
This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'" => God himself says the gentiles will turn to the Jews. That's why in Isaiah Israel will become a light to the nations: "I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth". Noticed the last part? That means salvation for the gentiles! In chapter 53 the arm of the Lord (God's salvation) has been revealed to them.
I absolutely love your podcast and appreciate getting so much insight into the Bible. It is so fascinating.
I was taught to believe in a literal understanding of the Bible, so this is very healing.
I’m dreaming of you two doing an episode about the Book of Mormon one day. Or perhaps a whole book?
The Book of Mormon is full of Bible prophecies and stories that never happened (like the tower of Babel). It contains chapters from Isaiah that should not be found in the Book of Mormon when looking at the timelines. Lots of anachronisms, people baptizing and living as Christians before Jesus was even born.
I know you have done an episode on the Mormon Stories Podcast, but I feel there is so much material to be debunked 🤪
I would love to have some good points to present to people why the Book of Mormon is full of made-up and plagiarized material.
He did an interview with a Mormon podcaster at one point. It was amusing when Bart was asked about textual criticism of the Book of Mormon and his response was basically that it was all nonsense.
@@godminnette2 Yes, I have watched the MS Podcast, but I feel like there is so much more material to talk about.
I take it you're LDS, or are an ex-mo. My guess is most scholars in Religious Studies (Ehrman included) don't take the Book of Mormon seriously.
I laughed at the whole Laminites story and how Levi or someone pushed off in a boat 600 BCE and popped over to the USA (convenient as that's all Joe Smith knew 😅).
When your eyes are opened to the truth about religious texts like the Bible, Koran, and Book of Mormon you can focus on the true messages found in Christianity. Your religious experience becomes much more satisfying.
Isaiah said that Cyrus was the "anointed" of YHWH, then in the 1800s the Cyrus Cylinder was found and on it Cyrus stated that Marduk and Nabu were his patron deities. That's how reliable Isaiah was. He did have YHWH saying that Cyrus never knew him, but did he say "even though Cyrus is a full-on idol worshipper I will make him my anointed, against his well"?
Where does Megan get questions for Bart? What forum?
Will you have a future discussion on "The Ascend of James" vis-a-vis the Old Testament?
0:08 “It’s one of the reasons we know he’s the son of god.”
I’m almost certain not everyone on the podcast agrees with these words.
"a little too big for his boots" love those British sayings
We have a switch next week. Bart interviews Meghan. To get into the spirit, he will dye his hair & wear outrageous glasses.
@@joefromtheBronx😂
@@joefromtheBronx Bart and hair?😅
"He's gotten too big for his britches" is the American equivalent.
Isaiah 42:1
“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.”
So? Who cares?
@@oldpossum57😂
So…who brought “justice to the nations” ? 🤔
@@oldpossum57
The fact that you replied to it shows that you cared. Lol
@@edward1412 No, it doesn’t. It does show that intelligent people find the presence of religious dolts in positions of influence really annoying. We believe in democracy. We just don’t know what to do with people like you who are so easily brainwashed as to reject rational thinking.
Megan: “So is it Jesus?” 😂
God Bless, Bart Ehrman!
Raising $500k/year for charity in the Lord's name!
Starts at 5:40
Jesus was a prophet
John 20:17 - The New King James Version (NKJV). 17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God
For those who haven’t viewed the entire video, they discussed that it’s in Isaiah 7:14 where it prophesied the birth of Jesus, future Son of David:
“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign; the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son, shall name him Emmanuel.”
Then in Isaiah 53:3-6 it talks of a suffering Messiah, the Servant of the Lord:
“3 He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, knowing pain, Like one from whom you turn your face, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.
4Yet it was our pain that he bore,
our sufferings he endured.
We thought of him as stricken,
struck down by God and afflicted,
5But he was pierced for our sins,
crushed for our iniquity.
He bore the punishment that makes us whole,
by his wounds we were healed.
6We had all gone astray like sheep, all following our own way;
But the LORD laid upon him
the guilt of us all.
Only if you read it in a Christian translation. If you can read Hebrew you realize it doesn't say that at all. There are books by the hundreds or even thousands were Christian apologists are trying to explain why the words don't mean what they mean. But I gently recommend that you spend a few months starting to learn some basic Hebrew. You'll understand.
Eliotta.7761 lies about what the episode discusses. Instead, it explains that the claims Christian’s pas make about prophecies in Isaiah are false claims.
@@elliotta.7761 I have another comment in this thread that I would ask you to consider. You are reading Isaiah 53 and thinking it is about Jesus. The reason you believe that is because number one, you haven't read Isaiah starting with the servant songs. The servant is clearly identified please see the following verses in Isaiah:
41 v 8-9
43 v 10
44 v 1-2
44 v 21
45 v 4
48 v 20
49 v 3
54 v 17
It doesn't matter which Bible you use. You can even use a corrupt translation it'll still get it largely correct. Who is the servant in all the passages leading up to what you were quoting in Isaiah 53? It says so explicitly. Israel, in the singular. This is not my opinion this is what it says precisely in the text. Now with respect to what you're quoting and Isaiah 53. You are using a translation which is making the text comport with the view of Jesus being the suffering servant. That is why the pronouns are changed from they, meaning the righteous remnant of Israel, to he. Why are those pronouns changed? I know there are some torturous explanations the royal we and such and so forth. It is all deceit. Also, if you learn even some basic Hebrew, you will appreciate the significance of the Hebrew letters men and lamed. They act like prepositions. So it's not an individual he who suffered for our sins. It is the group they who suffered because of the sins of the nations. Now you don't know that because you don't read the verse in Hebrew. And I don't expect you to believe me just because I'm saying it. What you could do, if you really want to get to the bottom of the issue, is to look at the verses that I cited above and note that these servant is Israel. Now you would have to believe that right in the middle of the servant songs Isaiah decides to change who the servant is. I suppose you could do that if you're desperate to find Jesus in there. But might I suggest further to spend the next 6 months learning some very basic Hebrew. Rabbi Federow has Hebrew jump start on TH-cam and it really is excellent. That will teach you to sound out and recognize basic words. And then just do some basic reading and you can use a Hebrew to English dictionary and other lexicons to figure out what you're reading. If you do that in Isaiah 7 I think all your questions will be answered. Plus, if I may, just read Isaiah 7 in context. It is impossible to read it and not understand it is a contemporaneous prophecy to the king and has nothing to do with a virgin born demigod 700 years later. But again, I don't expect you to believe me. But you can learn and study and then you can believe yourself! It really is painful to see what people do to the word of God. It is a terrible sin to twist and deliberately mistranslate and yet that's what's been done. You'll see.
28:19 - Would the Essenes factor into whether or not the Jews may have viewed Isaiah's Suffering Servant as Messianic prior to Christianity? I could be wrong, but I think James Tabor mentioned that the Essene's Teacher of Righteousness applied Isaiah 53, Psalm 22 and other Suffering Servant Psalms to himself about 150 years before Jesus. I guess it would all depend how pervasive Essene teachings were in Galilee or Judea in the 1st Century AD.
I'm going out on a limb and suggest that Isaiah's prophecy weren't free. The King is wanting answers to immediate problems and is not paying for future predictions centuries from now.
I'm surprised that Bart didn't mention differences between Masoretic and LXX texts, especially the passages that are quoted in the New Testament.
It takes faith to talk or deal with prophecies. Ertman is a historian who doesn’t take metaphysics or religious faith into account
I haven't watched the video yet, but I'm assuming the answer is "Nothing".
Awesome!
I love Megan
Even the book of Zohar explains that by the Messiah’s suffering, Israel is saved from judgment. This is also based on Isaiah 53. The Ramban interprets the chapter like this: “Because the stripes by which he is vexed and distressed will heal us; God will pardon us for his righteousness, and we shall be healed both from our own transgressions and from the iniquities of our fathers.” (Zohar II, 1) Hard to say no rabbis believed Isaiah 53 to be messianic.
He said prior to Christians. The Zohar was written int he 13th century by some Spanish-Jewish dude who CLAIMED it went back to the 2nd century (still after Christians)!
If Paul had not seen the vision of the Macedonian man he might have gone east instead of west and we might have had first and second Koreans and the letter to the Philippines. :)
I must disagree with you on one point. Throughout my lifetime, I have been a Roman Catholic, an Orthodox, and a Protestant, and all three have differences in the books of their Bibles. Protestants have the smallest Bible, with Roman Catholics having several additional books in their Bibles, but the Orthodox add a few more that the Roman Catholics do not have.
@WH6FQE: What you are writing about, is the "Old Testament",
and the "Deutero-Canonical" books which were originally not written in Hebrew (such as Tobit, Maccabees etc).
Protestants call those books "Apocrypha", and do not consider them as inspired Holy Scripture.
The question in minute 41:29 of the video, however, was about the 27 books of the "_New_ Testament",
and these are the same for the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches;
except the arrangement of Martin Luther's Translation, where "Hebrews" and "James" are shifted almost to the end.
Think I made this comment again but it's worth repeating. The part where Megan, who I am still crushing on, asks who's doing the suffering and why. If you're reading in Hebrew it's a lot easier but even in English translations. Start by reading the last few verses of Isaiah 52. The chapter break between 52 and 53 is artificial. Torah scrolls don't have them. Who is speaking at the end of 52? It is the kings of the nations. Then they say who would have believed our report? Let it goes in 53 to discuss the topic that Megan his addressing to Dr Ehrman. Translations in English are mistaken. The Kings of the earth discuss how the servant, who we now know is Israel, suffereds because of their sins. Not the sins of the Israelites or more specifically of Judah, the sins of the nations against God's people. If you have any interest in syntax and grammatical structure there's a difference in the meaning of a word that is preceded by the Hebrew letter lamed or mem. Look at the Hebrew and it all becomes crystal clear.
The suffering servant has to be the prophets, that suffered for the people.
THIS IS SALVIFIC CHRISTIANITY- Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all. How many PIERCED? How many , ran away, It matters not if he sees it as a past tense! THe Lord has laid upon him the INIQUITY OF US ALL? IT PLEASDED THE :LORD TO CRUSH HIM!! CMON!
I get so confused trying to figure when Israel refers to the nation, the people living in that nation, or Jacob before his renaming. I just enjoy watching people discuss ancient mythologies. 😀
So if the three Isaiahs so far apart, it had 3 different prophets, were they all written be men named Isaiah or were any of them written by a prophet by that name.
Свети Пророк Исая предсказа раждането на Месията Който все още Светът очаква!!! Всеки който счита и вярва че Исус е въпросният Месия, да бъде сигурен че е в пълна заблуда!!! Това е Божията Истина!!!
Carl Jung would have said that the Suffering Servant is an archetype, which we can define as a mythological motif. The Roman Catholic religious classes of my youth did not differ from this when they described the Suffering Servant as a Type of Christ; there are supposedly many such types in the Old Testament. The significance of the passage in Isaiah cannot be limited by the author’s intentions if it is real prophecy, for prophecy arises in the non-rational and non-ego-centered parts of the brain, just as dreams do. Archetypes seem eager to be embodied and fulfilled, and an archetype will choose a man or woman for its embodiment even as the human being chooses it. In such cases a man or woman now has an archetypal life and must sacrifice his or her personal life to it. The life of such a person now conforms itself to the myth and has a mythical or divine significance. The same archetype will appear again and again as the centuries pass. We seem compelled to recognize Jesus in the prophesy of Isaiah not simply because we have heard the passage interpreted that way in church, but because Jesus became the Suffering Servant with inimitable sincerity.
I wish Bart could go on Joe Rogan to set straight all the crazy people he has brought on lately…
Hello! Isaiah speaking about the Author of the whole Scriptures and true Lord Isaiah 12:2 KJV and Isaiah 26:4 KJV and his name alone is the most high Psalm 83;18 KJV
Bart says that after Jesus died, then people started to interpret Isaiah 53 to be about Jesus. This is highly unlikely. It is more likely that somebody poured through the Old Testament looking for bits of messianic stories, then constructed a story about a man that would meet many of the old "prophecies". The prophecies came first, the constructed story of somebody named Jesus came second. There was no actual person named Jesus who raised people from the dead, turned water into wine, and died two days in a row like it says in the Bible.