Tony Cecchine's American Catch Wrestling: Hooks vs. Submission Holds (top wrist lock / "key lock")
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I love Tony’s detailed explanation and approach in applying the top wrist lock. I have studied Tony‘s DVDs and have shown this top wrist lock to my students and they love it 👍
CACC is so badass.
I want to see him get it on a resisting opponent or this is just made up theory. Terrible demonstration.
Stop it, you have zero comperhension of what you're talking about and nobody knows this better than you.
How much to train me to your level?
wow, that art is deadly!
thanks man!!
Poor Kosta! Hope you paid him enough!
@nHautamaki Sure. Tony has always said the best move is the knockout.
@bounce510 Not quite. Its not just about cranking hard and fast. A hook is a submission where the science of its application has been taken to the highest level. A good analogy I think is punching. In boxing you are taught not to just punch with your arm, but rather to put your whole body into the punch by turning your foot, hip and shoulder. You can still hurt someone with an arm-punch but its not the most effective way of doing it.
@odessaboy Actually his logic is correct. He is not talking about the speed of the technique but how the technique is done.
@JFDF69 Groundfighting. Of course, the instruction works best as a set. Some of the stuff we show on the feet is used later on the ground.
@bounce510 One of the things you rarely see in MMA -- and I think that will change as the sport evolves and becomes more and more professional (as opposed to populated by part-timers) -- is the kind of fighting Tony teaches: namely, hooks directly off the takedown / throw / knockdown.
We show some of these in Snap, No Tap -- a high crotch directly into a top wrist look or a heel hook, depending on where and how the opponent lands, eg. -- but for now, people still seem to be learning in stages.
amazing
A submission is a hook... just applied slowly enough to allow your opponent to tap or verbally submit. The idea that they are different is really a matter of semantics. Anyone can have good or bad technique in a move or art, but that doesn't make it a different thing. The essence of what I think Cecchine is saying is that when the chips are down you want to execute the moves with bad intentions not waiting for them to give up or a ref to stop you.
I agree with this completely.
@verhoogje you are wrong. hooks are just submissions that hit quicker so they are much harder to control, and thus much more dangerous to practice, or use in competition. This thus makes them much more suitable for self defense purposes, but that doesnt make regular submissions any less effective in a self defense application.
@pocketfullofstones - When you just use your upper body it allows you to attack the arm but allows you keep control and full weight directly on top of your opponent. When you sit-through you trade some of your top weight for leverage, which while harder to fight the submission is easier to get a reverse, which luckily enough nullifies the submission more than 50% of the time. Everything has trade offs. It is best to know both, use the arm when your opponent is fresh, the body when they are worn.
The motion is different. Like you said, Americana = wrist towards feet and raise elbow. That attacks the shoulder.
The top DWL attacks the elbow. You bring your elbows as close to each other as possible. You want everything snug. Then you drag your bottom elbow along his chest towards his heart. Never separate your bottom elbow from his chest. See: 3:40 - 3:55
The tap is immediate. Try it, just go slow. No joke, no trolling, it's surprising how much faster this method is. Seriously, try it.
@legendof
You can order through Tony's site or, for this particular set, through either Tony's site or Paladin Press.
Love Tony's stuff. My Bjj partners are always asking me where I learned from. I lways give Mr. C credit. His stuff is made for the streets and can be modified for games. BTW which dvd is this segment from? Paulsons NeckBreakers is also a great piece of work.
Even without the wrist twist, this gets an almost instant tap. Most of the time in jits, I don't get the twist, but it's still only one cm of movement before the tap.
If I'm attacking my partner's right arm, I think of my left elbow as a knife that I'm dragging to the heart. It's so much faster than an Americana because it attacks the elbow long before your partner feels shoulder pressure, and that elbow pain brings fear.
With the twist, the tap's almost preemptive. Try it, just go slow.
Meant to say that Tony needs to get a hell of a lot more credit. We just tried it this version and I felt I was getting crippled!
Lol I like it how every single time Tony is about to apply something he is apologising.
@bounce510 Well in the video Tony does ask Kosta to try to straighten his arm out without the twist, then with the twist. So he is trying to demonstrate the advantages of his technique against resistance from the bottom man.
And I can think of many occasions where fighters have attempted an americana in high profile MMA matches and have failed after getting it locked up. Such as Cristiane Santos vs Gina Carano, Georges St Pierre vs Mayham Miller and Josh Barnett vs Gilbert Yvel.
@JFDF69 From Snap, No Tap.
You can order through Tony's site or through Paladin Press.
@pocketfullofstones - Do you know why arm punches are thrown? Because if they connect right they can disorient your opponent are faster to throw than full body punches, and don't force you to commit. You use them to set up more powerful strikes or take downs, or to get points in a fight with judges. When you do commit your weight you have increased power, but it takes longer to travel the distance, and force you to commit your body to the movement which of course means if you miss he's got you.
@luchador1764 - Heel Hooks aren't allowed because by the time you feel pain you are already being damaged. It takes a relatively savvy and ego free fighter to recognize when they are caught in a heel hook and unable to escape before the pain sets in.
If CACC were just about destruction with no chance to end an altercation without escalating it to the point of injury and maiming then it is a poor art form, but it isn't. It allows for ending fights without hospitalizing your opponent, you choose.
Even without the wrist twist, the top DWL is a different sub than the Americana. Big guys try to fight the Americana like they're arm wrestling. The top DWL's motion puts a stop to that. It feels like your opponent is unscrewing your lower arm from your upper arm at the elbow.
That fear you get when your elbow's being hyperextended in an armbar, that's the fear the top DWL gives, but from an Americana-like arm position. See if I'm lying. Try it.
@bounce510 But some ways of doing a hold will be more effective than others. A hold can be made harder to escape, more damaging, etc. Tony likes to compare his Top Wrist Lock to the traditional americana or paintbrush (which is taught in many BJJ schools). Tony teaches to pinch your elbows in tight and sit-through to enact the lock (rather than just crank with your arms). The scientific principle here is if you put your whole body weight into the hold it will be much more powerful.
@bounce510 I'm not trying to market anything, I've got nothing to do with Cecchine apart from being a fan of his videos. But I would disagree with you about submissions. In this video Tony is showing a Top Wrist lock. How many times do you see people tap to this move in MMA matches these days (at least at the high level)? Very rarely. People get the hold but usually their opponent fights out of it.. Perhaps they would finish it more often if they followed the principles Tony is teaching here.
@pocketfullofstones - I like the term science fine, when it is addressing scientific principles. ;) Submission vs. Hook is an artificial division of semantics. A false dichotomy. I do not argue the effectiveness of Tony's variations, I debate the term as being special or different materially. This definition means any superbly efficient submission is a hook. If that can apply to a jujitsu move as well as a CACC regardless of differences in technique, as long as it is effective I'm happy.
@pocketfullofstones - Don't get me wrong, the exposure I've had to CACC has shown them to be extremely efficient at achieving the positions best for a fight ending hold. However a loose RNC and a tight RNC is not an elevation of science or technique in the art it is the competency of the grappler and potentially their teacher.
Elevating to the highest levels of science would entail double blind studies, having a fair amount of experience in anatomy, kinesiology, chiropracty, and applying it.
Tony needs to get a hell of a lot ,
@bounce510 Once you sit through his arm is gone. As Tony would say, you've "hooked" him. The fight is over. As can be seen in this video Tony only needs to twist his body about an inch to get a tap from Kosta. If you think you are going to counter after he has sat through you must have rubber arms or something.
@cecchinecatch Even if you think that top level MMA is mostly 'part-timers' which would be a really hard case to make in the current era, I don't think that the rarity of many submission holds is because of the overall skill level. It's more a case that all submissions require your opponent to make a mistake first and professionals have cleaned up their games to the point that mistakes are rare. Strikes are becoming a higher percentage way to end fights because they are simply faster.
i think that about 85% of the people on the street can't fight all you need to do is learn
any style of fighting really and you can beat up about 50% of the people on the street.
I have been wrestling for five years and i have had to use it in fights and it works very well
@bounce510 GSP vs Miller: why does it matter what "kind" of fighter they are.
Cyborg vs Carano: even if you think Carano was outmatched by cyborg she was still able to escape her americana (and also her heel hook if I remember correctly).
arm punches: I don't know what you are talking about there. Why is an arm punch faster than a proper punch? And fighters who throw arm punches generally expose themselves more, because to generate power they load up on them.
I love Tony. But when you're goign against a purple belt or better I have had very little success getting the all-important TWIST.
I would like to see Tony execute this move on a person who makes a fist the second he grabs their thumbpad.
Making a fist is all it takes to prevent the twist.
It's a gorgeous thing when you suprise someone with this though. The tap comes extremely quickly, in a panicky voice.
Here's the drill: th-cam.com/video/YCRdgK4-F4A/w-d-xo.html
Jean jaq used a different but similar form of this in a abu dabbi fight back in 05. It looked sweet!
People tend to forget the first big stars in UFC we’re hook and catch wrestlers that adding strikes to their repertoire.
@@cecchinecatch wow, you're almost blowing this guy's shoulder out demonstrating a drill. don't you think that's a little... excessive?
Hey I wonder if you have any video of Tony doing the crooked neck scissor?
@pocketfullofstones that isn't science being taken to the highest levels. Like I said that phrase is hyperbole and marketing. There is no submission based art that doesn't believe they have the most technical submissions. What most people get caught up in are the submissions. It is about how you get to the point of applying the submission that determines a good submission artist. The wrap-ups and take-downs and ability to maintain a controlling position are what determine whether an art is good.
@alexpapyz31 Tony I believe is doing that on this video.
@bounce510 There is a method to test the "science" of a submission. Try it and see. For example you may slap on your rear naked choke really loose. This might work fine against a beginner. But a more experienced grappler might get his hands in and defend this. Your techique here could be better. Similarly you can ko someone with a wild haymaker right. But if you miss you will be off balance and liable to be ko'd yourself.
this just blew my mind! the guys are not gonna like this in the gym~ lol
@bounce510 I see where you're coming from when you say that hooks and submissions are the same thing, but I have to disagree with you. I agree with you because yes, you can apply any hold slowly enough and give your opponent time to tap, but some submissions just plain hit quicker than others do. And I think thats wat differentiates them. A hook is going to hit a lot quicker than a regular submission is. Thats why most sub grappling tournaments dont allow heel hooks.
@bounce510 I see you don't like the use of the term science. Sorry I'm used to it because that is how boxing instructors often describe the various things they are are teaching. Forget about that. All I meant to say is that for Tony it seems, a hook is a submission hold done as effectively as possible. We are discussing what Tony means by the term hook, and that is what he means. You may or may not agree with him about that.
Catch is english yet there are no notable wrestlers from england today in the 21st century. Ironic?
GSP versus Jason Miller was 5 years ago and both are completely different fighters...
Cyborg/Carano was high-profile but a definite mis-match in experience and skill level.
It is not a move used frequently for a number of reasons.
Which dvd # ? There are a few different ones.
@cecchinecatch is controlling the wrist like this would be possible in MMA, because of the gloves fighters are wearing or you're still gonna be able to hold him like this??
Is a hook legal in MMA? If it is, why isn't it used commonly in the UFC for example?
Few reasons,
Difficult to train moves that snap limbs enough to be effective.
Youll soon lose fights, not sportsmanlike. Noone wants to fight people who once in a hold just destroy rather than try to tap.
Very difficult to get in this situation, not a lot of these finishes.
The instant you sitout like he describes, you loose your ability pin. Easy to defend if the guy can feel it at all. The trick is to do so quick enough that he cant respond. If its already locked in and youre not moving to defend, youre hosed. If you feel it, you should already moving in anticipation.
And think from a promotion, you do this to opponents causing my fighters to be out for months at a time, im not letting you in my promotion. You could theoretically snap someones neck but youd be visited shortly by the police and, "it was a fight", aint gonna save you. Similar gig when you deliberately snap an arm vs give a chance to tap.
5:15 I just knew he was going to say 2 feet...... then he comes out with 24 inches :[
simply awsome, cecchine is the real deal
CW was made to fcuk you up not to make you tap
@pocketfullofstones - I don't see this submission done much in MMA at all, there are a lot of things the guy on top can do from here, that submission is only one of them. The effectiveness of his method of the top wrist lock is not something I dispute. The effectiveness of the top wrist lock in general in an MMA context though is questionable. Hard to tell because the bottom guy is not trying to fight the hold, it is a demo there is no reason for him to and it would interfere with the teaching.
paint*
Mr. Cecchine's logic appears a bit flawed. He just used a hook (snap no tap) to tap is student out. This is precisely what happens in bjj competitions. Submissions are used in relitively slow progression to avoid damage because its bjj in sport. In a fight, if i apply an armbar on you, its going to be about a split second long, and your bone fragments are going to be logged in the ceiling.
Why do all the bjj schools teach you to pain the floor?
9 yrs late lol but for future readers...
imo by teaching students to paintbrush the mat with the back of the hand this helps the student remember & focus on maintaining that hand position while working the lock. This is a focus tool to help prevent the opponent from regaining control &/extending their arm or rotating their wrist inward to assist in nullifying pressure from the Americana lock. There are likely other potential reasons too that aren't coming to mind that others can offer.
As practitioners get more advanced with experience & gain a greater understanding of body mechanics you will see them breaking certain technique "rules" as they mentally recognize potential for more effective routes to, compound & unique submissions.
@pocketfullofstones - That is great propaganda, but it is simply not true. There is no method of testing "the science" being taken to the highest levels, from a submission and a hook. Your analogy doesn't prove your point. A punch is a punch. Certain types of punches will generate more force, come in at differing angles, and hit with different surface areas, but they are still punches.
If a hook can be applied in a method to allow an opponent to submit it is a submission, by definition.
finaily someone shows a real keylock.thank you all bjj teach grab wrist paint the floor.whyif u miss the solder break the wrist or fingers are open also. screw bjj sport combat systema taught me that keylock
omg dont use that move u could get someone pregnent
ceccine has never been in any MMA fight or any grappling competition or anything. why? cuz he's a fraud
Why dont you go to his gym and prove it? I'm sure someone there could film it. That would be fun to see.
+Peter Paul ...
Scroll to the end if you don't want to read all the reasons why the comment above is ridiculous and uninformed.
Actually, he rolls live in many of his videos. Not for extended periods, but he does do it. He rolled with Bruce in The Lost Art of Hooking to demonstrate some of the techniques against a resisting opponent. He did it with Kosta in Snap No Tap as well, multiple times. He even puts him unconscious a few times, in less than 5 seconds.
As for him not competing, he has many injuries. From what I've heard he has a spinal condition that is genetic. Even in this video, he had recently undergone surgery to repair a torn bicep. I think years ago he even had an aneurysm, or maybe a stroke. I don't remember which. Those are just the things I know of. I'm sure he has many others as well. Think he should take his recently torn bicep and let guys try to arm-bar him? Think he should compete just to impress people like you and risk further injury? Absolutely not. A man has to pay attention to his health if he wants to last. Anyone who's ever had an injury realizes that.
Listen man, I get it. MMA and sport competition is really thought of as the gold standard of martial arts. Even the UFC's old slogan (maybe it still is?) was "As real as it gets". As real as what gets? Sport, that's what. It's STILL not the real thing, it's just as close as a sport can be. As I understand, Tony was a bouncer and a bodyguard, which makes him more qualified to teach self defense (the topic of this video) than a guy who's just fought in the ring! Think about this ---- people don't look at paintball, airsoft, three-gun competitions, or any other firearm sport and put it on a pedestal as the ultimate standard in armed combat. That would be absurd, because the guy that's just got back from Iraq has the REAL experience in armed combat. If you wanted to know about fighting with a rifle, who would you ask? The paintball champ, or the infantryman who spent 3 tours in the Middle East and has actually fought for his life? Why do you people put the MMA fighters on a pedestal and knock guys like Tony, who obviously is very skilled and experienced, but probably never had a camera on him during his fights/altercations? This is very absurd.
Now, I've seen you saying the same thing nearly word for word on his other videos. I have a feeling you are one of the many people in the Catch community who try to discredit other wrestlers. You may or may not even be the chicken-necked Jake Shannon. You may just be one of his friends. If you are, I would like to implore everyone to find a video of Jake instructing people in any way, shape or form. You will be hard pressed to do so. He is not an instructor. He is a businessman. I've bought some of his videos, and they are nothing more than re-packaged videos that other people have created. I even bought one of his recent videos, the "Pinisher" video. It is absolutely a shaky, hand held film of Wade Schalles demonstrating techniques with very little detail. There are portions of Snap No Tap in which Tony spent 30 minutes plus talking about ONE technique. That is true knowledge and attention to detail. Scientific Wrestling is the video diary of a bald-little shyster who is a Catch Wrestling GROUPIE.
---FAST SUMMARY BELOW---
There are quite a few times you can see Tony roll live with his students in these videos. Tony has many injuries and MMA is not the gold standard of martial arts. You are probably one of the many people who try to discredit Tony such as Jake Shannon of Scientific Wrestling, who has made a business of repackaging old videos of real catch wrestlers, amateur and collegiate wrestlers, and even wrestlers who teach show-holds --- yet he does no wrestling himself. A total fucking groupie and shyster.
show me the videos then. put them on youtube.. all you did was talk. talking aint videos. and I also said ceccine has never BEEN IN ANY MMA FIGHT OR ANY COMPETITION FIGHT. . show me the video of him in an MMA fight. show me any fight he's had for that matter
pocketfullofstones tell him to come here. then i'll film it
pocketfullofstones why doesn't he come to my gym and prove it? i'll give him my address. theres no videos of him rolling or fighting BECAUSE IT'S ALL A SCAM. he's scamming you lol
american catch wrestling?? you have got to be kidding! Catch is ENGLISH!!