ไม่สามารถเล่นวิดีโอนี้
ขออภัยในความไม่สะดวก
YOUR WARRANTY AND FTC RULING - DEALER VS INDEPENDENT with DOC HARLEY - Low Country HD Kevin Baxter
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ย. 2022
- Join me at @LowCountryHarleyDavidson in a conversation with Doc Harley. This is part 2 of a 4 part series where we discuss warranty, upgrades, performance, the FTC ruling and MORE.
Visit our website at www.baxtersgarage.com
Subscribe to @LowCountryHarleyDavidson TH-cam Channel
If you'd like to support the channel thru membership and take advantage of special features, click here to find out how.
/ @kevinbaxter
Pro Twin Performance and Baxter's Garage
723 W Winder Industrial Pkwy
Winder, GA 30680
(678) 226-9651
They’re basically telling you that the dealership CANNOT properly tune anything past a stage 1
I'm wondering if they can even tune a Stage I. I thought I saw a video where they mentioned that a Street Tuner can't go < 15:1 AFR. That might not cut it on many combinations of intakes & slip-ons.
First, thanks to both of you. Second, I will keep my 1989 and 1995 Harley Davidson motorcycle's and let others deal with this subject of videos. Ride on ladies and gentlemen.
You and me both brother
To be clear, this is where the conversation starts if it is honest, from the FTC: "The orders require the companies to take multiple steps to correct their unlawful behavior..." Unlawful behavior. They violated the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and the FTC Act. This conversation avoids the majority of the issue and addresses only minor points. More to the point, Harley is obligated by law to warranty the product, and the customer has the right to repair. Harley by policy grossly and continuously violated the law, to the detriment of the customer and for the benefit of financial gain, for an extended period of time. The dealerships, service managers, and technicians participated in these unlawful activities. Increasing performance and violating EPA tuning parameters are only very minor points if the conversation is honest, so why does this conversation stick only to those matters? What many wonder is what Harley employees that participated in this unlawful behavior have to say about it. What do they say to their neighbors and friends? "I was just doing my job."? I think this video completely misses the point regarding what most of the public is interested in regarding this matter.
What more would you expect a HD technician to publicly say? His opinion on corporate policy is irrelevant. Did you expect him to come out and take an opposing position that would jeopardize his career? I agree that Harley should never be allowed to restrict trade to the point of flagging an entire warranty if an independent bike shop services a bike or properly installs a quality aftermarket part. The unique paradigm for Harley is how much they are modified and the varying degree of techs working on them. Anybody with manufacturer dealership experience knows that every factory rep assigned to a group of dealerships, absolutely tracks the warranty dollars spent at each dealership. Harley corporate, like any other OEM, will speak to dealership management to ‘manage’ those dealers costing more warranty dollars than their closest neighbor dealership. Sometimes that gets out of hand and could result in a particular dealership becoming more inclined to find a reason to not warranty a part. Conversely speaking, Harley should not be responsible for failed lifters if an aftermarket high-lift cam is in the bike. There should always be a middle ground and if Harley is asked to manage that without regulation, they’re always going to go with the least expensive solution. If the regulations become too overreaching, Harley will find another way to prevent anybody but their own dealer network from modifying their bikes at a reasonable cost.
I've dealt with the " Motor Company " since 1976, it's always been a headache due to the crap HD pulled over warranty work. In my opinion it got worse when they introduced the Evo models. The waiting lists and dealers scalping prices on sales while refusing warranties because nobody was running stock pipe or intakes.
It began the boutique dealerships and techs that couldn't trouble shoot a problem, smh. It just kept getting worse as years past and the twin cam came to be.
Love the bikes, hate the company.....
Scenario: Fit new aftermarket pipes and/or air cleaner without a tune. Engine fails. Harley will claim that the aftermarket pipes and/or air cleaner caused the failure. I’ve seen it many times and Harley says the parts compromised the factory tune, leading to failure, every single time. I’ve even seen them deny warranty due to non-Harley tyres inhibiting airflow to the engine, thus causing premature failure…
My 2022 street bob’s gearbox needs a rebuild after 1,000 miles due to shifter fork, drum and cog failure. Bike is 100% stock and even then it has been like pulling teeth to get it fixed under warranty.
I’ll be selling it when it is fixed because Harley has gone to shit as a company. Do yourself a favour and buy a used twin cam. You’ll save money and you’ll be able to do what you want without worrying about dealing with the dodgy MoCo.
Unfortunately the " Motor Company " went to shit decades ago, it's all about emptying your pockets while giving back as little as legally possible.
Love the bike, hate the company....
Love these, you 2 should do this more often, Doc touched on it but as the Former Warranty at Low Country HD , even before the EPA and FTC got involved Customers need to be aware Harley-Davidson May not cover parts that have had Aftermarket parts Attached to them, Doc mentioned the Aftermarket pipes damaging head bolts and harley most likely would not cover that. A Friend of mine i warned him about changing up his sound system, he changed from the stock speakers to a high-end speaker system, but the oms were different, and it damaged the harley radio and harley wouldn't cover it, I'm Now Part time in the Independent shop world i manage a friends shop when he needs to be elsewhere, and i still run into it all the time, i tell my customers with new Harleys that are dying to do something crazy to wait till their warranty is up.........And that includes ESP !! But Kevin is right they can still do anything they want, if the warranty for the powertrain or whatever area you plan to attach aftermarket parts doesn't matter to you GO FOR IT !! and please tell people Harley does NOT Cover the Aftermarket parts, you put on V&H pipes and they fail the FTC ruling doesn't mean harley has to cover the V&H pipes, or install Andrews Cams and they Fail and take some harley parts with them.......Not Covered.
Thanks guys, you're a super duo. My issue on this topic isn't necessarily with H-D because their hands are tied by EPA rulings (I say "necessarily" because the suits in the boardroom won't mind having more warranties voided...) The concern for me is a much broader one about how undemocratic the rise in regulation seems to be. The notions of choice and personal freedom are quickly becoming more relevant and meaningful to those working in marketing than they are to the average consumer.
There have always been non-spoken "work-arounds" to achieve drivability supposedly within EPA requirements. I remember as a Ford tech in the late '80s, hotline guys talking about BBs the perfect size to "run a test" on a particular carburetor and EGR system. It was never explicit, just "friendly conversation." on the phone. The OEM machine never ran well from the start but we knew why and did some "mods" to change that. Not the way anymore even though the machinery still works the same. The computer part of it and it's relentless memory is a finger-pointer's dream. Still, at least if you don't care about being sued, you can adjust things to a better "feels-good" state. Easier and less risky for the individual than a business.
Love the two of you getting together very informative
Great friendship, priceless
Doc needs a SkunkWerks sticker for the toolbox!!
Best explanation I've heard yet. Thanks
I would say if ur having a build done by your Harley Dealership and u want 2 add performance parts after the build is completed, stick w/screaming eagle parts until ur extended warranty on the original build expires. After it expires & if u choose not 2 extend the warranty further, u can use non screaming eagle parts if u want 2. But, if a problems results from the mix & match, ofcourse, the fix will be on ur dime.
Thanks Doc... Thanks Kevin, much appreciated.
Harley and their headaches dealing with the Warranties is the main reason I never bought a NEW Harley or any Bike from a Harley dealer.. LOVE the Bike, hate the "Harley dealer experience" ..
Just toss the entire stock EFI system and put a Mikuni HSR carburetor on your bike, PROBLEM SOLVED! 🤣
Good content guys. I will say that this is why I have,and will continue to, buy,older bikes.IMO I want to enjoy my rides in whatever form I decide they should take. Having to make compromises because of bureaucratic policy takes away from that enjoyment. I respect that dealerships are bound by whatever rules that the governing bodies come up with,but having to deal with that in an area of my life that’s intended to get me away from that kind of thing obviously defeats the entire purpose of it.
I watch both of your content and I’m grateful to both of you for the time and effort you put into it. Thank you very much for that.
This is a perfect reason why I would never buy a new bike. Pay $25000 plus for a new bike and tune it like you want and the warranty is void.... No thanks
Great video from both of you.
Very good information, thanks for sharing this.
Fall of 19 I did a stage 3 107 to 114 (SE-498 cam) in my softail just before the advent of the big bore kit. I added SE Ventilator extreme, 64TB & intake, S&S Superstreet 2-1 with Catalyst. The dealership dyno tuned the bike from the stage 4 117 map. It made 116 HP 116 TQ. It would not flag any warranty as all MoCo was looking for was the SE tuner. Really nice AFR line. Later I used a larger universal 2" ID Db reducer cut to factory Db reducer length from Fuel Moto.
Then I won a free dyno pull. It pulled 118 HP 122 TQ no tuning changes. For many dealerships/bike owners this is probably out of the box thinking to tune from a more aggressive map or fitting a larger but legal universal Db reducer. 37k miles later zero issues warranty is up but tune still seems spot on.
I respect both u guys opinions
Good video guys👍👍
Thing is in 2017 and later is when all this EPA requirements became intertwined with the warranty, fallout from the lawsuit over the illegal tuners. Most dealerships didn’t know the rules or the Harley warranty,even through 2019 some were still telling customers “your covered, don’t worry we got your back” well the mothership said hold on a minute….. you are not covered if they are non compliant parts, yes the tuners (air fuel mixture, timing etc) but also the head pipes and the cat converters etc…
I read the warranty a few times as well as the decree from the lawsuit…. It is pretty clear
Thank you so much!! Very informative video!
I’m in Canada. When I bought my bike I added the ESP to take it to five years. By the time riding season comes around I’ll be three years into it. I currently have MK45 slip ons. I’m having my independent shop put on a Tab Performance 2-1-2 head pipe and Screaming Eagle Ventilator air cleaner. It’s getting a Technoresearch Maximus Tune as well.
I had good discussion with my dealer regarding the implications. The main message I got was that it was easier for them to finesse the ESP than the factory warranty.
Regardless. I’m going to be happy to get rid of all of that heat from the cat. Hoping that along with the tune will add to the longevity.
really excellent discussion
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
Excellent explanation
Appreciate the content 👌
Warranty claims are almost identical across any manufacturer within the US becauseof the EPA. Harley, Ford, chevy, Yamaha just as a example
good show gents!!
In early 2002 I bought a new Harley. It had valve train noise, which would come and go. Sounded like lifters. 200 miles on it. Dealer said Harley wont pay for R&D. Put exhaust on it. They lost me right then and there. Later on I fixed it. I have also had many Harleys since. They all have their woes. Still Love them. I even built my own ground up. I have been riding for 60 yrs.
I have a 2020 Trike and this is the first Harley I've had that will remain bone stock, mechanically! The warranty runs out this December but i have no plans to doing any modifications. I just want it to run good and last. It is highly maintained and that is it.
I did the Stage 1 & 2 to my 2020 TriGlide (torque cam) and it made a world of difference!!!
thats why i say if you buy a new bike ride it the way it comes until its out of warranty. then when you upgrade it'll be time to do some engine work and it'll be like you have a new bike. this year im rebuilding my 2014 roadking. it has a little more that 65k on it. so its time to freshen up the top end check run out change lifters/ cam ect. when i get in it ill know how deep i want to go and how big. chances are not any bigger than i have to. im happy with the power and i do a shitload of mile. i know your saying 65k isnt that much but i bought the bike almost two years ago with 5200 miles in it. so i know ill be in it every couple of years and i can upgrade along the way.
It's not just motorcycles. If you buy a new car and change the tuner and there is a failure, you will have problems with the dealership. I re tuned my bike using the SE tuner after making some upgrades. Now that the warranty is gone I'll move on to an after market tuner.
Kevin offers an aftermarket warranty that covers all modifications to your bike. Call him for details.
That... IS an interesting thought! Reason I say interesting is because I'm in queue to have my motor blueprinted along with a 7 speed transmission upgrade. As I understand it the warranty company he deals with has some kind of understanding that Kevin is building quality along with stability in his work. No warranty company wants to put themselves out there with a shaky build or builder that can't or hasn't shown some kind of results without charging a lot more than the Harley Corp. would for warranties.
There might be other aftermarket warranty companies out there that will cover your bike, but they also might ask for a list of mods and upgrades to know what they are covering ( at least that makes sense to me). Obviously the HD company warranties bikes that are EPA compliant so they can maintain their grace under rules of our wonderful Government. Does Kevin have to make his builds EPA compliant or just solid and reliable? I'd be interested to hear what he might have to say about the work he's done to broker a relationship for himself and the other builders listed on his website that discusses after dealer warranty's or builder warranty's. If independent warranties are covering all that you own for a similar price in comparison to HD, then what would keep you from buying a warranty that will allow you to go for a tune that is going to create a healthy running motor that is not EPA compliant?
I decided to go for the blueprinted build after researching all the weak spots of the M-8 and the transmission to see if there were options to make it as reliable as some of the metric bikes that can go over 100,000 miles with very little work other than regular maintenance. Either the internet killed my sense of quality or maybe it doesn't exist in the production motors that Harley makes on the assembly line. Obviously they (HD) tantalize you from the time you sign papers to take into consideration all the upgrades you can make with stage 2, stage 3 and stage 4 builds. Yet the testimonies to the durability of HD production parts over parts made by companies like S&S, Jims or Baker don't seem to have equal reputations for quality and longevity. Even a person who only puts the companies projected 3000 miles a year for the investment in warranties can experience the effects of Exhaust Valve seats in the heads leaking as some builders have found when taking a young motor apart. These kind of things may be even more common in someone who rides an epa tuned bike that runs hot and lean. HD warranties their parts and replaces broken parts with the same parts that broke.
I think a warranty that covers parts that are built with better tolerances and better materials is more valuable than a warranty that is covering average parts, but then the reality is, why should you worry about a solid build that is created from superior parts and expert craftsmanship? Of course the answer is, because no company is perfect, and at today's prices a build can cost as much as the original purchase of your motorcycle.
For me, if i need to spend $15,000 to get to 150hp on my softail i’ll just buy a $15k 200hp race bike. I don’t see a need to upgrade above stage 2 when i’m running comfortably at around 100mph.
Kevin or Doc. On my 2018 RGS 107 I did the full screaming Eagle exhaust and a Stage 1 kit and tune with a Harley tuner at the dealer. No other changes. How long before I have to retune, or maybe I don’t need too.
Do you ever lose the tune?
Thank You
Pete
It sounds to me like Harley Corp and it's employees want to down play this like the consumer should be happy now. Because of Harley's malpractice of it's warranty stopping the consumer from doing anything to "their" motorcycle that they paid for and own is the reason the FTC stepped in. Maybe I'm missing something. Other than the frame and the tins, every part on my scooter is a brand other than harley. Great video. I enjoy both of your channels
it's NOT Harley's Fault in Fact Harley took a Huge Multi Million Dollar Hit FOR YOU !! harley paid the EPA fine and installed the warranty rules to keep the EPA from Fining YOU directly
You hit it right on the money Jon Hall
I got a Bassani road rage 2-1 exhaust I won in a raffle from my local HD dealer. I recently got a Vance&Hines FP4. My dealer says if it is not a Harley tuner it will void my warranty. I called Vance&Hines because on their website it says it keeps the warranty intacted. They said that the FP4 is an EPA complaint tuner and being EPA complaint makes it so Harley can't void the powertrain warranty because it's not their tuner. Is that correct?
Had the 131 kit installed into my 2020 RGL before I accepted delivery. Could it do better than 132hp and 144tq? I’m sure it could…if I was willing to touch the warranty and not ESP. I’ll stay where I’m at for now and this discussion is why. Not fair for Harley to warranty something added by someone else like a tune etc.
I think if you buy a new bike with a warranty you should ride it as much as you can 10 to 15k miles a year, if there's a problem it'll show. I add exhaust to my bike and a new air cleaner and that's it. My dealer has been very upfront with me and they'll fix it as long as the parts I added had no relation to the cause of the failure.
agreed
But it does mean that any shop can do work on the bike as long as it’s in Harley’s standards. And….any shop can maintain the bike while it’s under warranty from the MoCo.
Hey Kevin, this is a very relevant topic and conversation. So if I understand this correctly.... in the end, practaly speaking... there is no change... if you mod.. you lose your warranty.... is that correct?
No...not completely. You can mod but it comes down to the tune. It must be tuned with the Street Tuner. The issue comes in....if you choose parts that do not allow proper tuning with the limited adjustments a Street Tuner provides.
Most Stealerships won't even touch my 90's bikes. I'm probably better off anyways....
So, question, lets say i bought a new breakout 117 and after its first service, i want screaming eagle stage IV kit with screaming eagle high flow air cleaner, but want say, vance and hines pcx curved exhaust with screaming eagle tuner and the wide band option, how much difference would horsepower and torque really be from another tuner that would void warranty?
Is it that much noticable difference for an average rider ? Or is it just internet hype. I can see if someone races or something, but your not going to do things that you can riding with, say a ducati panigale, harley is just a cruiser.
Im trying to understand why people bad mouth the screaming eagle tuners when 99 percent od people can never even use the power of a stock engine.
Hey Kevin! I have a 22 Road Glide Special. I added a Reinhart exhaust and a K & N filter. Do I need to tune my bike??
No
Understanding that they have a set parameters that they can tune a bike, but he never did say what those are speaking Air/Fuel ratio ? Also curious if this ruling also applies to the ESP warranty on my bike ?
ESP is separate and will cover repairs that the factory warranty won't.
So, if someone added let's say an aftermarket stage 2 combination of parts with a Thundermax tuner for example, if it's tuned to EPA compliance then the factory warranty would still be applicable to the unchanged factory powertrain parts?
the thundermax is not a tuner it's a whole new ECM, you would void ALL warranties
Hd red flag my 17 when my trans lost 3rd because tmax at the time is listed as non EPA/off road!
Doc or Kevin; my dealer said I can put a Woods XE as long as I use their SE tuner; Question, what would I most likely end up at? I have Arlen Ness inverted Air box and Reinhardt slip ons on my 21 M8 Ultra
. I have heard of people doing that by loading the SE Torque cam tune or HP tune and the bike ran like shit. I don't think the SE Autotune Module would be much help with that either.
Look at the DK Customs High flow air box with the Transformer that is the ultimate answer for any stage in my opinion. You absolutely have to get the engine gases out of the intake and the transformer is the best option (the only option) that I know of
for example If my bike is under warranty, has a non factory tune and I have a failure will Harley Davidson cover it?
Doubtful. Non factory tune. But I’m sure you’re after an official reply and not my take on it.
How does the H-D dealership confirm/verify whether the tune conforms to EPA standards?
The tuner being used is EPA certified. For example, Vance and Hines fuelpak 3 in not EPA certified however the fuelpak 4 is. Keep in mind most are not at this point. Thunder Max is a ECM replacing the factory therefore it isn't covered. It is still a damn mess and the motor company will become more resilient in how they deny claims.
If i was so worried about a warranty I would buy another make of motorcycle Harley Davidson can suck it
Is there way to make points work on a1340evo I Ben told it the time bing because can is not pre1978 there for be away to make them work
More text less understanding
Tect
I don't think my next bike will be a harley-davidson because of the warranty issues. Just my opinion
Just get one that's out of warranty no worries
This isn’t an issue for the other motorcycle companies??? Why? Probably due the shear amount of bikes that come back to the dealerships for major warranty work. HD had to scrutinize everyone just to try and stay in business.
sorry doc thats bull the dealer dosent make the decision . it depends on the dealer . some and im saying few are like yours where that may be the case . here where im from they want to not even service your bike if you put anything less than a factory dunlop on your ride and good luck getting the factory to even hear about your ride if the dealer isnt trying to push it through .
Ride all Harley-Davidson
The fact they can’t service bikes after 03 and not sell parts after 1995 fug the company I’m buying Polaris products from now till I die
“If the aftermarket exhaust damages the heads, that’s on you” has nothing to do with an ECU tune.
It’s not just about the tune. If you did something to damage any part that’s under warranty, it’s not covered. Ex: custom paint and guess what? Your paint is no longer covered. Install aftermarket pipes that damage the head. Damaged head is not covered. Pretty simple.
Yeah, my slow ass shovel is probably out of warranty.
I can hear the feathers of some of the viewers being ruffled. It sucks that the thumb of big government came down on HD.
Really? People are going to be upset that Harley got busted for ripping off customers? That's what happened. There certainly are plenty of matters the government needs to keep out of...but the notion they can't do anything right is silly. In this case the feds were 100% right.
@@FernandoChaves Harley got busted for going out of EPA regs selling non Compliant EPA parts such as the old non EPA compliant Screamin Eagle Tuners and mufflers and were heavily fined and regulated. The parts were were redesigned to become compliant which aren't necessarily the best for the consumers needs. They then went a bit overboard on what violated warranties. Seems like there is now somewhat of a fair balance. You put an aftermarket part on your bike and that part isn't covered. That's fair. If the aftermarket part shows a direct correlation in causing a failure of a Harley part and the warranty for the other part is denied is also fair. Where this new ruling comes in is is your aftermarket part has no bearing on your failed item, Harley must make the warrantied claim. That is FAIR. unfortunately some were getting denied claims wherein an aftermarket part had nothing to do with the problem at hand. That was overboard on Harleys part which this ruling has corrected.
Sure harley will stand behind there warranty. I have seen time and time again including me were there is a problem a noise something else and harley just can't to find it. Until it's to late. Then when the worst does happen they blame the rider. Just like changing the acceptance of a huge run out on your crank. Give me a break harley has become the worst kind of company. The bottom dollar. Ita a shame. They used to be a great company you could count on now you cant.
Harley just looks for an excuse to not pay for their shifty craftsmanship. That can not be denied.
Intro is taking way too long.
A lot of questions in the comments not answered here. What gives? This sounds like a mouthpiece for Harley………
Very lame explanation
👍