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I left the following as a general comment but the "hosts" of this channel should read it. Everyone associated with this channel should be deeply embarrassed by this "real history." This is offensive. The only "real history" is that a couple of aspiring grifters manufactured "relics." To go into a discussion of "how did they get here," "it's hard to cross the ocean" leads the gullible into thinking "experts" are trying to hide "the truth."
The interview with David Allen Deal isn't the best of scholarly discussion. The Copts are still around -- they're the pre-Arab Conquest Egyptians. In the year that Deal says they had a distinct theology, 375, the Copts were still in communion with the Churches in Rome and Constantinople. They all had the same theology. Deal goes on to claim that Emperor Constantine had an agenda to have his own pet theology enshrined as Church doctrine. The problem with that claim is that the only evidence shows that Constantine ended the persecutions against Christians, but he wasn't the first Roman emperor to do so. There had been others who allowed the Christians to live in peace, and all of them were followed by an emperor who persecuted Christians. In 20/20 hindsight we can see that no emperor who followed Constantine persecuted Christians, but there's no way the Christians of the time could know the future. Many of the bishops who were alive when Constantine was emperor had scars from the tortures of persecution, and probably everybody knew someone, or many, who had died for the Faith. They had refused to compromise their beliefs even in the face of death. But Deal, and others, claim that Constantine imposed his theological will on the Christian Church. That's a head scratcher. The only way Deal can defend the claim is to assert that the bishops were so tired and weak that they all gave in and changed Christian doctrine in exchange for being able to live in peace, and he'll have to present evidence that this happened. It's possible to trace the origins of this claim about Constantine, though, and if I recall correctly it was first posited in the late 19th or early 20th century. That's not first hand or even second or third hand source. Whoever put this documentary together should have done that basic research before deciding to put Deal's claim into the evidence, or at least have acknowledged that his claims in this regard are controversial. The fact is that the claim about Constantine's influence on Christian doctrine is dismissed as crackpot by serious historians of every belief. Editing to add that the claim that YHW is "Jehova" is way out there. That's a long explanation, but the short one is that the Hebrew texts that were used in synagogues included the abbreviation for "Elohim" (Lord) above the proper Name of God, because God's Name was never to be spoken aloud. The rabbi who read the Scriptures aloud in synagogue was reminded to substitute the word "Elohim" for "Yahweh." A Catholic monk in the medieval period or later mistook the way both abbreviations were written, with "Elohim " (abbreviated) written *above* the"YWH," to be the single word "Jehova." The monks who used his written copy to make other copies perpetuated the mistake, while Bibles copied from other monasteries continued to write it as it had been done. The confusion wasn't cleared up until the 20th century. But the mistake wasn't present in any Scriptures of the time that these guys claim the Michigan artifacts were supposedly brought by Coptic explorers. So that's just another argument against the theory.
As a native Michigander with Ojibwa heritage, I have deep roots and deeper love for the great lakes region. There is so much legitimate and fascinating history here to absorb and explore. It honestly upsets me that self indulged, depraved, and delusional scoundrels would dare muddy the waters just for 15 minutes of fame. Especially done in such a blatantly obvious format. It's despicable.
@@Howl-Runner those aren't the only ones destroying the earth in general, he didn't "gloss over" anything lol man I hope you find more happiness so your not trolling comments on you tube for self validation
WHAT DO SAY ABOUT THE VERY TALL SKELETONS FOUND ALL OVER AMERICA? WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THE ORAL HISTORIES OF MANY TRIBES THAT SAY THAT GIANT PEOPLE LIVED IN AMERICA THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO?
I live down the road from the historical museum, used to be my favorite place to visit as a kid, the 50s and 60s era sections were always my favorite. Now my 12 year old loves going there every few months.
Museums was the only places except the Art, buildings on my 33 days of the best days of my life am now 73 occurred June 30- August 3, 1969 to Europe all expenses paid including air fare ,food and lodging with two per room with bus transportation throughout cost $1,000. The world has become worse not better thus no children as the population in free fall because too expensive with hunter gathering better for health of the human body everyone should know this since 1920.
All the discoveries in all the various locations and through the various years have one thing in common: James Scotford. The next big clue is that he was an artist. He painted signs and was a scenic artist. I myself have a fine arts degree and can tell you that it is a rare artist who does not have experience in a wider assortment of mediums than just one. Sculpture, metal working, pottery etc are very common skill sets that most artists have at least some experience with. This guy had the means, the motivation, and he and his sons were the sole source.
I think that anyone who has seen hundreds of stone tools and thousands of artifacts, even if only in museums, would see these as certainly not having been buried for 1700 years. The writing, the incised lines, the lack of weathering and wear are absolutely not like actual artifacts, which are very rarely ever found in such pristine condition. Fun show and very well made.
Haha, right? I'm glad I'm not alone. Those are obvious forgeries at very first glance. They're not even good forgeries, they're so naive, as if made by a child- or some poor, uneducated farmer in the 1920's.
@@anarchy_79 Successful farmers in the 1920s were far from poor or uneducated.Where do you get such ideas?Many self made millionaires came off the farm.Guaranteed those farmers had high G,which simply means practical working intelligence.People like Ford,Edison etc.
I think the brightest red-light is the completeness of so many of the "objects" and the apparent lack (as far as I've been able to deduce) of accompanying evidence of habitations or ruins or rubble or trash and debris, nothing but pretty trinkets.
Do a little research, try to find out what happened to the Cities along the Mississippi river and in New Mexico, Arizona all up and down the Eastern US. There were large towns created by the various tribes of the Eastern Confederate in all 13 original states, do you think that the White man were going to leave evidence of their victims after they slaughtered them all? Do you think the few mounds remaining are the only things the "Mound Builders" created? No, most of the time the US Government sent the "civil engineers" (don't know what they were called) but sent these crews out ahead of the "settlers" to loot and raze anything remaining of the cultures in the territories that were wiped out by the poxs and other diseases or driven out by the military! Then anything left the settlers would flatten as they created pastures, fields and homestead and towns...
@@oldogre5999 I'm pretty certain that the government (which was nowhere near as organized and well-equipped as modern governments) was not so systematic and motivated when it came to ruins and artifacts as you suggest. The relatively isolated conditions and the lawless nature of the frontier along with man's inherent greed and curiosity are more than enough to account for the lack of large-scale material evidence.
@@oldogre5999 Did you give any thought at all to this before you typed it? So the government wiped out all traces of the habitations of ancient Christian communities in Michigan (that no one knew about until the 1890s?) but somehow left thousands of pristine, easily found artifacts? And why would they want to do that in the first place? You can believe whatever you want, but don't try to bullshit the rest of us.
There was a similar controversy in Davenport Iowa in 1877. A local minister, Jacob Gass, uncovered two slate tablets bearing Hebrew inscriptions from a burial mound. The Putnam Museum of Davenport was dragged into the controversy as he was on the board there. Several years later a couple of local guys confessed to the joke they were playing on Gass because he was so full of hot air about the Mound Builders being the Lost Tribes of Israel. It got out of hand when national media picked it up. The tablets are still in the Putnam Museum. That kind of fakery happened quite a bit during that era. Apparently there were gullible people long before the internet and jokers and con artists to take advantage of them. P.T. Barnum inspired a lot of people.
They are Authentic Artifacts. *"Mainstream Academics/Archaeologists" are just married to their ,"19th Century Theory based Paradigm and Linear Timeline".* aka the Darwinian Model Theory, there are an abundance of studies that suffice to prove their Paradigm inaccurate. The facts are emerging at present and Peer Reviewed Science has and will have some exciting discoveries for our era's awareness. These finds challenge their model, and that's why the scream fraud.
@@carlmally6292 Indeed, Joseph Smith merely co-opted an idea that was already pretty popular at the time (that's one of the reasons he got so many converts early on).
DOB 1960. My Dad and I collected many arrowheads in different areas of Central and Lower East Michigan. These are sacred to our family. Michigan is a place like no other on earth. Remember, it's ancient with Great Lakes that "raked" and carved millions of acres of land, rivers, lakes, streams and they made Michigan rich farmland and other resourceful soil that sustains humans and animals. Whales are now returning yo the Great Lakes as well. Lake Superior is the 2nd or 3rd deepest biggest freshwater lake in the world. I believe anything ancient could be found in these lands. The native American tribes thrived here. Michigan is very special. Visit, enjoy, love,bur take your garbage with you
It's true that "Native Americans" in the Great Lakes area used some copper arrowheads, but these were from "native" copper, (copper occurring naturally). There is no evidence they ever smelted copper, and these plates were made from smelted copper.
So whales are returning to the Great Lakes? Which are freshwater? Are they swimming up the Mississippi and then locking through the locks on the Chicago ship canal? Or coming up the St Lawrence and then swimming up Niagara Falls to get to Lake Erie?
@@sufyb6432; yes, there is archeological evidence the natives were gathering and using native copper, (natural occurring copper in metal form), but there is no evidence that they were smelting copper from ore, (refining copper metal from copper bearing stone ore).
the first problem tihe most of those findings where Soper and Scotford brought these 'respected' townspeople to randomly find these relics is that the constant coincidence "how they just happen to be where we searched", whereas in archeology search sites can get turned over for weeks and nmonths by large groups of trained professional with little or no fidings at all. The high freqency of these substantial and coincidential findings suggests that these pieces were buried weeks in advance, so that rain water would solidify the ground and cover the digging of a recently buried object. the second problem is that many of these slate objects ought to be broken, cracked and so thoroughly worn by age that most of the inscriptions should not be legible.
It goes well with the rest of the corrupt and debauchery in the state. I always assumed MI’s sad state of affairs is due to the unions, but it seems it’s deep at the core.
I was at the meeting when Wayne May presented with Richard Stamps present, lots of evidence of Michigan Relics discovered over 100 years before Scotford and Soper were born. Yet when Dr. Stamps spoke to the same group he never acknowledged the compelling evidence presented by Wayne May. As a Full Professor with nearly 100 refereed articles in the scientific literate (biology and geospatial sciences) I was blown away at how he obviously had no intention of acknowledging the much earlier findings of the Michigan Relics. Most of his presentation was focused on Scotford and Soper calling them frauds, when the findings of many of the relics was obviously not a hoax. Many of the relics were found buried under the remains of Hopewell people. How did the hoaxers pull this one off. How come we find some relics in Southern Illinois. Did they ride a horse from Michigan to Southern Illinois just to plant some relics as a hoax? Come on folks, let's think logically.
@garybowler5946 Mormons are a perfect example of what it means to be human. They are both wrong AND right. Or rather, right for the wrong reasons, lol. Look up the Utah-Judah connection. It is fascinating.
If you read the Henrietta Mertz book called 'The Mystic Symbol" you will see the these artifacts were mainly found by farmers or excavations for cellars or foundations. And Henrietta was a court forensics expert and attorney who gave forgery testimony all the time. She knew that these carvings were softened with time and timeworn. She believed them to be authentic. Open your mind people!
@@therealdannymullenya Mormons originally believed all black people were evil, followers of Satan. Changed less than a hundred years ago. Tells your all you need to know
I'm down in the east end of Monroe MI. Just south of the river and not far from the historic battlefields. I bought my house in 03& it was originally built in 1892. Ive found a lot of cool artifacts over the last two decades while renovating. Hell, i even thought i found gold inside some "black dirt" in the basement where the original foundation wall was caved in& replaced but all the surrounding dirt was left in the basement space. I have it saved somewhere but never tested it since it was just a few grains at that. I digress..... I can go anywhere on my property and dig down 6" and find something. Most of the time it's broken glass, bones, old nails, glassware or ceramics, etc. From 6-12" down it's more of the same but sometimes you can find entire bottles still together or random pieces of metal. When i dug the 42" deep trench to run utilities out to my shop I found most of an old pot belly cast iron stove around 2ft or so deep. There's stuff scattered everywhere. And what is that stuff? Mostly garbage. Like legit garbage. Why? Because I'm guessing that over the last 130 ish years of homeowners, many of them threw their garbage directly on the ground or buried it when they felt like digging a hole or giving the kids a chore or punishment. I'm guessing the original builders just let their materials that went unused sit where they lay. Or tossed them to the side& the earth scooped them up in time. I've found a few dozen nails clumped together in spots. Like someone tossed a bag of them to the ground& said screw it. Or maybe they pulled them from old wood& tossed them in a pile for years. I'm guessing the people in the house tossed their food scraps out the windows for the chickens&pigs to pick off of& eventually they were stomped into the earth. In guessing a few of the homeowners were drunks& broke bottles around the yard. Add to that the trees in the yard& the lack of maintenence, it doesn't take but a few years for the earth to reclaim what was once on top. Either way, 130yrs& it's nothing but garbage for 2-3ft down..... which means that i can only imagine actual artifacts from the past being pressed into the harder clay soil that sits beneath the soft dirt or sitting on bedrock or anywhere that would maintain them in location with minimal activity above. Ive yet to find anything worth actual value but i fill up a 5gal bucket every year full of garbage. Lol. Lastly, for the same man to "find" multiple artifacts in various locations...... he must be the luckiest person ever or the best ever OR just a fraud...... lol. With that said, everyone enjoys a good dig. Just make sure you know where you're digging first and what may lay beneath. It's a simple phone call away to find utility lines
I live in Michigan in a 1896 farmhouse as well and I'm constantly digging up artifacts also. Pieces of glass bottles, pottery, plates (one with the full logo clearly visible, it was a very common 1800s manufacturer) and very rusty metal hardware. Like you said, it is most likely all of it was trash of the day. I keep most of what I find because it is interesting to me.
That's awesome!!! I would love to find artifacts around waterford. Also, pan that black dirt. Won't be too hard, there is plenty of gold here in Michigan. All glacial deposit unless in the UP there is some native gold.
I live in a home in Allendale, MI, I refer to as “our hovel”. It was built in 1870 by a Civil War Veteran and was, as I understand from older neighbors, a hog farm in it’s day. I can’t dig into the yard here ‘anywhere’ and Not find some kind of old something, like a piece of a farm implement, or an old shovel, hoe or pick of some kind or the other; there are glass bottles, some not broken, and just simply anything you can imagine from those days. If the house had been put up with the old wood balloon construction of those days it would most likely offer up relics too as I change the interior walls but, he put this one together with cinder blocks and mortar. That means no old newspapers or cowboy and Indian magazines, no old dolls and shoes, period cigars and God knows what else I have found in remodels of other old wood framed houses from the 1800’s in Grand Rapids and surrounding areas. In one job we found old letters from a young girl and her Civil War Soldier; in one she even spoke of the Government coming and taking their horses as they were needed by the Army. Fascinating stuff. There is enough real artifact items out there without the need to creatively develop fakes. Fakes tends to diminish the initial value of artifacts and those who pull that should be severely reprimanded by our culture. They don’t deserve their moments in the light and they cast negativity on the rightful place of the real thing.
Under the dousing art is 2 L shaped rods that cross directly over metal ... Takes a bit of pratice but very reliable ... A couple coat hangers will get you started... Brass even gold are the best as the vibrate as well as cross ...
@@beardedxj I did find gold specs in it but who knows where it went. I have hoarder genetics so I save too much good shit as it is, let alone useless stuff. Lol. Combine hoarder genetics with being a handy man& it can add up way too fast. Lol. I clean shit out 4x a year& still think I have a mess. Although that may be the OCD kicking in.
If that many relics were left behind where are all the regular day items like pots pans weapon’s or did they just leave items with hieroglyphics on them 🤦🏻♂️
Your wrong and must be a lefty. You lefties all think that you have to have a degree. You don't think so e one can learn just by reading and listening to other archeologist. I quit school in the tenth grade. But I love history and love to read. And so I did for years. Well I had to go to a psychiatrist to get a test done to see where I was intellectually. She got through with me after three hours of testing. And wanted to know where I went to college. She said I had at least three and a half years of college. I told her no mam, I. A welder fitter. Never went to college . And she said she had been doing this for forty years and have never been wrong. I said you are now. She got mad and said well how did you know all this History? I like to read. I don't hardly ever watch TV. She said most people quit reading after school. I found that amazing. Because I couldn't comprehend people not wanting to read.
I'm from that immediate area of Montcalm County. The locals always knew that the relics were fakes. Only outsiders thought they MIGHT be real. Our Grandparents joked about the relics.
@@denisesipsy1281 agreed. And how would they line up an ancient lunar eclipse so accurately in their faked depictions of history? Especially in 1904! Like, c'mon now. They were laypeople, uneducated people. They didn't know jack about ancient civilizations and even less about ancient eclipse dates 🙄 How could a hoax be so accurate? I'ma go off of the usual scenario in these scenarios: its real, they want us to think its fake, so they added fakes to the mix to be discredit the real ones. Just like the Ica stones, the alien stuff, and everything else
@AllyCat510, keep in mind that this video is probably 20 years old. So the video it’s self could be considered of history. The production quality is such that it doesn’t show its age much. Dr. Stamps is a friend of my dad, he’s currently 81 years old. In this video he’s probably in his early 60’s.
Would you wear a fake watch? Buy fake money? Would you destroy fakes to remove them from potential circulation that would dilute the value of real money? That's what these items do. they dilute real history and as such should be removed from any study or presentation. They do not teach or promote any real history unless you are studying forgery.
The expert at the end is utterly wrong about no prehistoric smelters. Shame that he didn’t know this. Copper smelting was definitely going on prior to Columbus.
So many artifacts basically found by just two men. You would expect lots of other Michigan folks making chance discoveries in their digging and construction work. But nothing really, zip, nada. Pretty weird batting average they had!
Actually, artifacts are found during construction. In the area where I live, back in the 70’s / 80’s, new neighborhoods were going up like crazy. When bones and artifacts were turned up, they were quickly dumped in trucks and hauled off, so as not to be seen. It’s very sad, but the state and county would shut down the build sites for years, or forever, if they knew, so the builders protect their investments by getting rid of the evidence. Economics wins over history. I myself as a kid, found what I now believe may have been an ancient drum, a piece of pottery with carved markings, and an arrowhead in the field across from my house. The “drum” and pottery were in the dirt under a small pile of rocks. Arrowhead was elsewhere in the field. Stupid kid, I thought nothing of the drum or pottery and tossed it. I still have the arrowhead. Point is, people find things and either don’t know what it is or purposely hide it.
Yep. The fact that others are unable to find anything like these pieces in that area (or surrounding areas) is a huge red flag that so many sadly don’t bother considering. I mean, even with the truth coming out about the supposed artifacts, there are still people who refuse to acknowledge it and will try every way to justify continuing to believe it’s real.
As a professional Geologist, I wonder why none of the artifacts shown have any soil (iron, humus) staining or any carbonate deposits on them as usually occur on ancient artifacts. To me, many of the "tablets" look like old slate roofing shingles from the Martinsburg Formation in PA. I am not aware of similar slate in MI.
I've lived in Michigan most of my life. I personally believe Michigan is definitely is a spooky place. With all the ledgends, crazy happenings, spooky places, heavy forests, wild weather & mysterious Lakes, it gets under your skin.
Three minutes in and I new these was about "snake oil salesmen". At least it's a good lesson to be extremely critical of those way out of place finds. Little did they know, that some 900-1000 years ago, Scandinavian peoples of the Viking era would actually have established a small colony on the Atlantic coast of Canada, that was confirmed by real scientists over a half century of their respective deaths. Unless other such finds of that magnitude are yet to be unearthed, anything smaller will be held in a highly skeptical view, do in large part to molesting actors such as these two perpetuated, and the damage they did attempt or have done, to the collective history of us all. May the ancestors grant them their just rewards.
? More squatters ? LOL..Sorry, people of color were the earliest inhabitants ...not the Norskies. OK..who is the next bunch to claim our native land as theirs ????
This is a story about how even intelligent people can be fooled by obvious fake items if they wish those items to be real, especially if it "proves" some oddball theory of theirs.
@@koobs4549 You just put your finger on the reason archeologists are hell bent on declaring them fake as they did with the Book of Mormon. Check out the map of genetic haplo group x. It might sober you up.
I grew up in the Gaylord Michigan area in the 70's before phones and internet. My friends and I spent whole summers fishing and exploring the forest. I nor anyone I know ever find anything.The one cool thing we did find was huge trees bent and all pointing in a line. They were obviously bent hundreds of years ago on purpose directing people to a destination. Sadly most of that area was cut down by loggers.
The main question is loudly being proclaimed; WHY are these items NOT part of a town or city? Mounds are usually the residence of a past living community, with all the elements of life scattered about.
What's the controversy? Only one guy finds them and he finds them in the counties where he moves to. NO ONE ELSE has to date found any in Michigan, yet he found thousands? Yes, the guy who faked it simply went to a library - they had those in the them olden days - and copied symbols from ancient civilizations all over the world. But since he didn't understand the language, he just used them as decoration. That's why we can't decipher the 'text' because it's just random letters. Anyone can make an oil lamp out of clay. There's even a tutorial for children to create one. Once you fire the clay it's indistinguishable from ancient oil lamps with some aging. Since this guy bought it from a collection and thus out of context for its surroundings, it's worthless as evidence of Mediterranean presence. Simply saying "Well the guy I bought it from has authenticated Native American pieces" doesn't prove anything. And why would anyone from the Mediterranean area come to the Americas for copper ore when Cyprus and Egypt and other such places were centers of copper production in the copper age? I wonder if that "mystical" etching on all the fake relics is someone's initials, as joke. So fake, fake and fake.
The amount of copper used in the Bronze Age was so massive, the various sources around Europe and the Middle East have been questioned as to their ability to produce copper in those quantities.
If there is no providence all you have is a piece of metal or clay. This is almost as bad as the "Egyptians settled in the Grand Canyon I saw a few weeks ago..."
My grandfather, he grew up in detroit back in the 1920s-30s. One day, coming home from school, he came across a museum that had closed and threw out a bunch of stuff. He grabbed as much as he could, a large collection of items. Some of them i believe are connected to these relics. I recognize the drill holes. My father has the collection now. uses one of the drilled pieces as a massage rock. Works great. Alot of native American axe heads, other stone items. We even have a zulu spear, with notch marks in it. I stand to inherit it. My grandfather, being a wood worker, made very nice displays of the items. Grandfather also brought home a Japanese sword from the war serving in the pacific. To be able to hold these things in your hand, its something else really. The sword was a working sword and you can tell. It has wear. Handles are falling apart. Also have a bayonet from the franco german war of 1871, in excellent condition really for its age.
Have the sword looked at. It could be hundreds of years old. Some Japanese officers would use a sword that was handed down in their family for generations. Look it up, it wasn’t uncommon. They would repurpose the sword with a new hand guard and handle. There was an article less than a year ago that a WWII veteran returned a sword to a family in Japan that was made in the 16th century
There's markings on the tang under the handles, that's the sword makers mark, look up the symbols. The pawn stars had a few looked at and they ended up being worth tons of money
Michigan Relics aside, it is so refreshing to hear a scientist be open to new evidence changing the narrative (and even saying "that's science"). Such a huge contrast to prominent members in other scientific fields (Egyptology in particular springs to mind) who like to say variations of "the science is settled" or they have the "definitive" account of their field.
What you find so "refreshing" is simply the scientific method. Science is always open to new data and evidence, which changes the "narrative". That's how it works. Anyone who holds on to previous theories because they are particularly enamored with their own discoveries, or favorite theories, is no scientist. When that happens, the person in question goes down in history as a failed and fraudulent practitioner. Someone who establishes a theory, that is later proved to be in error after new data comes to light, is not discredited, but actually celebrated as part of the ongoing scientific method. It is no disgrace, unlike someone who would pervert the scientific method to hold on to their erroneous position. Those people are either examples of egotistic, unprincipled people who are not following actual scientific methods, or, as in the case of some Egyptologists who refuse to consider new data and findings, polluted by political, religious, or cultural influences. There is, actually, very few issues that could actually be termed "settled science". Every scientist actually knows that. The people who do not understand these things are ignorant of the scientific method, which is the best system humanity has to keep us from lying to ourselves in our examination of facts, history, etc.
You can tell the clear difference in intelligence between the different guys studying these… the one guy who took the artifacts to experts of the specific materials is absolutely how you find truth.. then he ended his interview by saying “that’s science it could easily change” admitting that he could be wrong and you hear no doubt in his voice he means it.. the other guys seemed angry or affirming their proof is undeniable.. it seems like they aren’t really doing the same caliber of work… I didn’t see one ancient Hebrew expert I just saw a guy who claims to know all about it. Putting words together with symbols in a tile that’s clearly fake with poorly drawn Indians watching a calendar… trying to attach a solar eclipse and meteor to shoenproof is really a stretch
No kidding like whoever created the tablet was doing it on the day of the eclipse and just happened to write the biblical happenings from hundreds of years earlier.
Nah. As the video says, he had collaborators, and it really doesn't take that much effort to produce stuff like this, especially such poorly done stuff. I think the video says there are around 2,000 of these, and Scotford did this for around 30 years. That's about 70 artifacts a year - easy to churn out in a few months. Sell them to gullible people willing to pay a lot, and you've got a nice living plus notoriety to feed your ego, without having to work most of the year.
3000 artifacts dived by 25 years equals 120 artifacts made a year. 120 artifacts dived by 12 months equals 10 made a month. 10 artifacts divided by 4 weeks equals 2.5 artifacts made a week. It could've been done by one person easily. Just saying.
@@yohei72, you are right. If my memory severs me right, I don't think he or the others held a full time job outside of their craft of faking artifacts and even that wasn't a full time job.
All one has to do is look at Mesopotamian artifacts in the Middle East, compare them with the Michigan counterparts and one can see how amateurish the Michigan ones are. Seems pretty obvious.
The description of the Scotford/Soper 'relic hunts' is really all you need to realize that these are fakes. If you really can just dig any old place and come up with a bunch of artifacts, then everyone in Michigan should have found one by now. And yet somehow the only time anyone ever found one of these things was when Scotford & Soper were present.
Ppl seem to make these stories fit into their beliefs to support their thinking. For instance, the publisher is correct, he's not a geologist, archaeologist, or antiquities expert😂, its a fake oil lamp, or real one that was planted in West Virginia
His agenda is to prove that the Book of Mormon is true. Which in my opinion it is true. But he makes money doing seminars about the historocity of the Book of Mormon. He proposes that the stories in the book took place from Louisiana up to Michigan. I am Mormon. Most Mormons believe the lands and people described in the Book of Mormon are in Meso America. The book of mormon talks about two groups of people leaving the middle east and coming America under God's direction. Thus some of the people here anciently were descendants of Isreal.
Thevoil lamp is a classical fraud. It is not documented in any archeological dig in the US. So it could come anywhere. People are not aware how importatnt documentation is and what context a found exists.
I live in Illinois, there is a cave in central illinois where he discovered a trove of Egyptian artifacts. I believe he keeps the location secret, although he has shown some of the artifacts. This may also be connected to your collection. Sorry I don’t have more information.
Never heard of these artifacts. I know that mound culture existed in southern Michigan, but based on everything I’ve read that culture had a minor presence in comparison to Ohio and Indiana. And by the late 1800s, most most mounds were excavated or destroyed by farmers who got curious about that funny hill on the back 40 or wanted to flatten their field, so it’s unlikely that a hoard of artifacts would suddenly appear. It makes sense that the Michigan copper was traded by pre-Columbian native cultures, but that doesn’t prove the artifacts are real. The most far fetched artifacts are the written tablets. The etchings are way too clean and precise to be that old. slate is incredibly brittle so, it’s hard to believe they’d be in tact. there’s a lot of cherry picking by the ‘experts’ in this video and a lot of bs. They ignore the fact that books existed that provided examples of the writing and symbols on the tablets. I’m sure the Carnegie Mellon libraries that were popping up all over the country during the last 1800s had ample supply of these books. It’s sad that people continue to believe the artifacts are legit.
There was a sunken ship found in the Mediterranean with copper ore that matched that from upper Michigan. It was a bronze age vessel if memory serves. The copper pits of the upper peninsula used to be attributed to Indian activity but I think that theory has now quietly gone to bed.
This caught my eye because my grandmother moved to cass lake area and her boyfriend was Ojibwa who had found all kinds of arrowheads in that area. He jad put them on velvet and framed them but whats interedting is he had these relic things in the middle. They slmost look mayan but yet they were from MN.
People have always traveled. There's actually other evidence of trade between N&S and Central America. It really is only one continent, and though many many tribes, all basically from Asia/Mongolia 15-20 years ago. But the gov't doesn't want anything like legitimacy for South & Central Americans migrating north.
Check out the “grotesque” face oil lamp that was discovered in the foundations of Jerusalem; it is very similar to these objects. They seems like funerary votives to me.
All I have to say is that those old hoaxsters were very educated to have come up with fake languages that had such high statistical correlation to actual languages and then put that into actual events. They really put a lot of work into that.
Even a fake language is invented to serve the purposes of facilitating grammatical communication -- a fake language *_will_* have high statistical correlation to existing languages, just due to the fact that it is a language. That's the nature of language, and of statistical correlations. If those old hoaxsters were *_that_* educated, they would have done a better job at weathering the "artifacts" to make the incised lines less fresh and crisp, and if they were *_really_* dedicated, they should have hired another artist to make some of them. As it is, every one of the artifacts shown in this video appears to have been made by the same artisan in the same workshop within the last couple of centuries *_at most_* . Incised lines this shallow would have been erased by the weathering process centuries ago if they were anywhere near as old as claimed.
I think at some point someone thought that the hoaxter guy had found a real artifact and, realizing he could make money, he used the emblems or "letters' from the first one to make more of them to sell.
Creating poor fakes that an expert can figure out at a glance is not a lot of work and doesn't take a high degree of education. I can't speak to the statistical claims, as I'm not an expert, but neither is the person who claims to have made these statistical correlations, and pseudoscientists are fond of throwing around superficially impressive-sounding "stats" to bamboozle other non-experts.
Love videos like this "experts state this" and yet "idiots disagree" well done folks lets take people and just give them all equal weight on their opinions.
Aswell as being used for sinks slate was also very commonly used for roofing. many of the slate tablets look like obvious roof tiles that still have the nail holes in them. very easy to find at any construction site in the 1890's
THANK YOU for acknowledging this. I've a small collection that says there's a whole lot more going on then anything we could ever have imagined. AZ location for me. This excites me !!
I’m from where the Slate Museum is, and I recognize that slate sink and saw. I’m going to show this to my dad who was on the original board of the museum. He’ll get a kick out of this.
At 39:53, for the evidence of copper smelting. Back during the great depression there was a dam project that was put forth to put people to work and produce electrical energy. The area that was to be flooded once the dam was completed had evidence of ancient copper smelting (on stretched animal hides) leaving permanent marks on the ground which were documented via photography. Later in the late 20th century a shipwreck containing stretched ox-hide shaped copper ingots in the shape matching the photographs taken in the late 1930's early 1940's. I forgot what the Dam project was called, but there was a videos about it on You Tube some years back. There can't have that many massive dam projects in that area during the great depression, it's likely that the photographs could be found in the library of congress.
Amazing the willing gullibility of intelligent people. Some of the Michigan artifacts are obvious forgeries. Doesn’t it stand to reason that some forgeries are better than others?
Many ancient explorers came through. They didn’t leave much because they were not settling. Take the Spanish for example back in the 1600s. They were here. But only the French and English colonized the Great Lakes Region
I also have stones with the same symbols there like symbols with an eye and lines I retire to talk to the archaeologist on the phone and I felt they made fun of me and basically asked what I seen on the stones and I told them what I knew at the time and they told me they would send someone out and then hung up Never took my info lol Idk how you can get help with this stuff but they are not a help
"Boy Who Cried Wolf." Archaeologists don't have unlimited time and funding, and believe me, they get nonsense calls all the time about supposed amateur finds. Sounds to me like they were pretty polite to you under the circumstances.
@@melvinwillis8869 I would love to have someone take a look at what I’m finding I only show a few people because idk it seems so unreal I guess is the word
Mr. Stamps is opening up things that he claims to know nothing about and yet he's commenting on them. Plus he's misidentifying the grain of the wood what you might put some clay with saw marks that are clearly not consistent enough in any way shape or form to be marks made by a saw. Then eventually shows a circular saw and circular saws do not make straight cuts. They just don't! And then he comments eventually that he can't identify what Henrietta births was seeing, and yet he doesn't state that he has any background in languages. The man is a fraud commenting on shit he knows nothing about admittedly he knows nothing about them! I do understand the problem with the thin sheets of copper. Those are decidedly fraudulent for the most part. Because the American Indians use pounding stones to pound out their copper they could not have made sheets of copper even in their smelting operations down in Ohio. I do agree that there were no smelting operations yet found in Michigan. But many smelting operations by American aboriginals have been found in Ohio. And it cannot be denied. They've got slag present, which is consistent with a smelting operation amongst other things.
One of the books I've been reading this spring/summer is Barry Fell's "America B.C." He was an epigrapher, and died somewhat recently. There are stones around, especially in New England, but other places as well, that had been inscribed in what he, and others, called Occam script. That is a combination of Celtic, Phoenician (close to Israel) and then Carthage as well. This is before western Europeans, before 1492. Just asking that we not throw the baby out with the bathwater. One of the guys said that "Scofford polluted the artifacts." I think that that is more likely true.
Fell was a professor of invertebrate zoology--"best known for his pseudoarchaeological work in New World epigraphy, arguing that various inscriptions in the Americas are best explained by extensive pre-Columbian contact with Old World civilizations. His writings on epigraphy and archaeology are generally rejected by those mainstream scholars who have considered them." Not exactly the guy to believe on this topic. It doesn't strike you as peculiar, the particular choices of old world scripts? They are commonly chosen as something that few people can read, but are familiar enough to be identified, which is exactly what a hoaxer needs. This kind of hoax can be found all over North America, especially the US. Don't be a sucker, don't open your mind to the point your brain falls out. For that matter, this stuff has been done for many centuries across the old world, long before the new world began to be overrun by Europeans. You'd have to be seriously stupid to just take this crap as anything but crude forgeries.
Equally wrong to do would be to treat his judges as though they were unbiased, scientists who did not have significant investment, in time if not money, into the structure of epigraphic archaeology of the present day and age. Science quits being science when it automatically will not consider the questions that consider its choice of facts, omitting those that would disprove them, or when it will not consider the driving presuppositions. When you permit the concept of "it is already proven science", you now begin to talk about either religion, or engineering. @@TheEudaemonicPlague
Fell (1917-1994) was a person of extraordinary genius. His critics are always people who never knew him. His special knowledge was in ancient euro-mediterranean scripts. The new world studies came from the appearance of these scripts at new world sites. North America archeologists lacked the linguistic knowledge to critique Fell scientifically so they went ad hominem. Fell considered these Michigan artifacts to be 100% fraudulent and didn't waste any time on them.
The eclipse on July 26 over that one county is interesting, I would love for that to be real. Greed is so abundant on this earth and truth is so elusive because of it.
People should be more aware that in the turn of the 19th and 20th century it was very fashionable to "find relics of ancient high cultures" and fabrications were quite common. See Kensington runestone, its a prime example of the phenomenon
Every single time I see Michigan Pictographs and writing, I instantly think fake ! Every single show. Every single documentary. Fake is always the first word that comes to my mind whenever I see them.
My roots are in what was called "Westsylvania", where the current states of Ohio, PA and WV meet. While visiting there I went to the Moundsville WV state park, just across the river in WV. There it mentioned the "Grave Creek Stone" was found there, which it described as a fake. I thought nothing of it, until I visited "mystery mountain" and personally saw the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone there. I read that was a fake also, and so thought nothing more of it. Then I read about the Bat Creek Stone, which was labeled a fake. Then I found that there are at least eight geographically diverse places in north america where fake hebrew writing was found. I thought, huh, how did that happen? THEN, I read that the University of Haifa in Israel thought the Las Lunas Decalogue to be a classic example of a mezuzah, as used in ancient Samaria (not on a door frame, but carved in stone at the gate/entrance to a property), thought that all the reasons given by US "experts" for calling it a fake were actually what made it authentic, and were only puzzled as to how it got to what is now New Mexico. Hey, I like to quote Shultz: "I know nothing." But something is going on here.
Get Henrietta Mertz's book called "The Mystic Symbol". It's the story of the Michigan artifacts that she collected in the 1950's. I believe these are authentic and it just didn't 'fit the university narrative' of the day. It still doesn't.
Yes and that view is that Jesus was the brother of Satan. And such strange Mormon views were known way before the 1890's and the forgers knew about it as well.
Pretty coincidental that he went to two different states and found hundreds of these artifacts while no one else ever found them on a dig he wasn’t involved with.
I definitely agree that man has always used the ocean for travel. I spoke with a Navajo man about their origins and he said they came from the east, that there were descriptions of the land as they traveled west and that Archaeologists didnt know what they were talking about telling them that they came from the north across a land bridge because he knew his ancestors came cross the ocean in boats shaped like turtle shells- which as it happens also lines up with things found in the book of mormom.
The Polynesian people 100% made it to the Americas they colonized the whole of the Pacific Ocean, they were the most prolific travelers except maybe the Malaysian/Aboriginal people they arguably colonized just as large of an area and may actually be partially related in places like New Zealand. I read a story once about a red haired freckled native woman from Hawaii and she said her family had a legend that they came from Egypt area, her DNA definitely had markers from that area but they also could have been later additions also.
While I am not a die hard supporter of the current native origin theory of Orthodox science. There are some facts that need to be addressed here . #1 Tribes in Alaska speak a language that is a parent tongue to the language family of the Dine' ( Navajo) and Apache . #2 The Pueblo people retain a historic memory of the arrival of the Navajo / Apache people in the 1300's AD , and the archaeological evidence of violently destroyed villages , and the change of valley pueblos to fortified cliff dwellings testifies to the truth of these legends. #3 the Moccasin pattern of the Athebacsan people in Alaska matches the the pattern of Apache styles , as do many cultural and religious ideas .
@@ronhoy8913 its more likely a mix then. Evidence says two different things, so perhaps both are true and groups intermarried. Which makes more sense then not as it was against the rules to marry within your own tribe for the Dene
I'd like to know what Dr. Irving Finkel would think of the cuneiform writing. Irving Leonard Finkel is a British philologist and Assyriologist. He is the Assistant Keeper of Ancient Mesopotamian script, languages and cultures in the Department of the Middle East in the British Museum, where he specialises in cuneiform inscriptions on tablets of clay from ancient Mesopotamia.
Im glad Talmage didn’t just buy in because of his faith. It’s also nice to hear that the LDS church sought out a legit Michigan archeologist to examine the collection. It would have been tempting to use this stuff to corroborate certain beliefs.
Something happened for sure around the Younger Dryas event. The last ice age. Here in Southern Ohio there are lots of evidence left over from the last ice age. Lots of Native American history here also. Live about 30 mins from the famed Serpent Mound. If any of these ancient Civilizations or people are proven true, then they change the history of North America. Which they can't have that. Just think of how much knowledge has been lost do to money, egos, politics.
The slate artifacts just don't look real, the biggest gripe I have is where is the patina? Something buried in the damp ground or even lying on the floor of a dark cave will LOOK OLD! Those things look like they were etched just yesterday! Just brilliant white lines, if they were actually ancient the etching would be more of a very dull white to a yellow or tan color.
I agree most of them are fake but maybe the guy found something real at first and then saw dollar signs. Ten years ago my daughter was tubing on the Muskegon river, she stopped at a small island in the middle of the river. She found what looked like a arrow head with a hole in the bottom. It’s made of stone and looks old.
Humans have been boring holes to make pendants for at least the last 37,000 years. People have found perforated stone artifacts in deposits confidently dated to the Upper Paleolithic.
What was never explained in this story was how did the authentic Roman, dated coins get in Michigan? Those artifacts were not real yet the Roman coins were.
I have to say that these artifacts are way too new looking to be as old as they say. Actual artifacts from that era are much more deteriorated, especially if they have been in the ground. I have to believe that the BoM, and the golden plates are a complete miracle. There is no way that without divine intervention the plates could have sat in a stone box for about 1600 years and come out legible. How on earth did that box not get flooded? It was extremely well made.
@@tenabarnes3269 No, they were returned to the Angel. Through the power of Jesus Christ there are resurrected beings and the plates were precious to them. Besides, we are trying to convince you to trust the science and this is the proof the plates are true. We are trying to get you to read the text, feel the spirit and become converted. That is not a materialistic process facilitated by evidence, it’s a spiritual process facilitated by faith, prayer and personal study.
@@tenabarnes3269I think the front pages of the BoM states that there were several people who examined the plates before the plates got returned to the angel
I know the Book of Mormon is true and I believe the Nephites lived inside of the US, however, I know about Poe’s law. I am of a mind that this is a parody of the BoM. Non-Mormons know a lot about it and they are perfectly able to mock and ridicule us. This is just a very extreme example of it.
I’m neither defending nor (entirely) opposing the legitimacy of (some of) the relics. I will say that the alleged saw marks look more like old worn down wood (strong grains stick out more than the worn down weak ones)…as a guy who has actually cut plenty of wood, I’m failing to see the sawmarks in question. It’s more likely that the clay was placed upon a table or boards made from weathered wood. Yes, those boards would need to be cut…but something from a sawmill would show a more circular cut . It would be more obvious than this expert claims (maybe he hasn’t cut a lot of wood 🤷♂️). Perhaps they could show other pics with a more circular cut in the grains?
When i first saw the artifacts i was very skeptical but thought "well, maybe its possible", after watching this i believe it even less. They succeeded in assuring me they are a load of crap.
Fakes are sometimes created and planted to serve as a misdirection. This is classic Russian KGB psy-ops. Obama's party operatives may have done that so as to more credibly hide his true birth certificate should it be discovered. Many fakes were brought forward to prepare the way.
@@sufyb6432 It's the fact that they have long declared the Book of Mormon to be fake that the non-Mormon detractors must now declare any physical evidence confirming the Book to be fake. But some of the confirming evidence, such as DNA can't be faked nor declared to be fake. So they have to focus on relics.
Who in the modern world would make these objects and bury them knowing ancient writings. Of course this is real. Yes, you see these kind of objects around Mediterranean region museums.
I'm looking forward to seeing this. I'm developing a channel based solely on Great Lakes, specifically Michigan history. Crosschecking facts requires much more diligence than I realized, but I want to get things as close to accurate as possible. I'm a Michigan "native," that is, Detroit born, not Native American, not even a bit.
Christopher Columbus on his voyage to America brought with him a gentleman for one purpose and that was because the gentleman spoke Hebrew. Columbus knew that some of the tribes of Israel had migrated to America.
I don't think the Diffusionists are doing anything useful for themselves by hitching their cause to these artifacts. There are enough verified (Vikings) and likely cases ( like the Kon Tiki thing, theories about the Chinese, Irish etc) It's quite possible in isolated cases. However this doesn't serve their cause. Also did these Copts show up, leave artifacts behind and leave only these traces and no other everyday items or signs of habitation? Or remains that would be distinct from Native Americans?
@@sufyb6432 Maybe aliens abducted them and all their villages and just left behind all the decorated artifacts because they didn't like them. Doesn't mean they weren't there. Maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe........
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Why would you make a Video even considering that the Relics are a Hoax? Some Scientists are wrong.
If this is an example of what this channel considers "historical", I'd genuinely rather hit my foot with a ball-peen hammer. Repeatedly.
I left the following as a general comment but the "hosts" of this channel should read it. Everyone associated with this channel should be deeply embarrassed by this "real history."
This is offensive. The only "real history" is that a couple of aspiring grifters manufactured "relics." To go into a discussion of "how did they get here," "it's hard to cross the ocean" leads the gullible into thinking "experts" are trying to hide "the truth."
The interview with David Allen Deal isn't the best of scholarly discussion. The Copts are still around -- they're the pre-Arab Conquest Egyptians. In the year that Deal says they had a distinct theology, 375, the Copts were still in communion with the Churches in Rome and Constantinople. They all had the same theology. Deal goes on to claim that Emperor Constantine had an agenda to have his own pet theology enshrined as Church doctrine. The problem with that claim is that the only evidence shows that Constantine ended the persecutions against Christians, but he wasn't the first Roman emperor to do so. There had been others who allowed the Christians to live in peace, and all of them were followed by an emperor who persecuted Christians. In 20/20 hindsight we can see that no emperor who followed Constantine persecuted Christians, but there's no way the Christians of the time could know the future. Many of the bishops who were alive when Constantine was emperor had scars from the tortures of persecution, and probably everybody knew someone, or many, who had died for the Faith. They had refused to compromise their beliefs even in the face of death. But Deal, and others, claim that Constantine imposed his theological will on the Christian Church. That's a head scratcher. The only way Deal can defend the claim is to assert that the bishops were so tired and weak that they all gave in and changed Christian doctrine in exchange for being able to live in peace, and he'll have to present evidence that this happened. It's possible to trace the origins of this claim about Constantine, though, and if I recall correctly it was first posited in the late 19th or early 20th century. That's not first hand or even second or third hand source. Whoever put this documentary together should have done that basic research before deciding to put Deal's claim into the evidence, or at least have acknowledged that his claims in this regard are controversial. The fact is that the claim about Constantine's influence on Christian doctrine is dismissed as crackpot by serious historians of every belief. Editing to add that the claim that YHW is "Jehova" is way out there. That's a long explanation, but the short one is that the Hebrew texts that were used in synagogues included the abbreviation for "Elohim" (Lord) above the proper Name of God, because God's Name was never to be spoken aloud. The rabbi who read the Scriptures aloud in synagogue was reminded to substitute the word "Elohim" for "Yahweh." A Catholic monk in the medieval period or later mistook the way both abbreviations were written, with "Elohim " (abbreviated) written *above* the"YWH," to be the single word "Jehova." The monks who used his written copy to make other copies perpetuated the mistake, while Bibles copied from other monasteries continued to write it as it had been done. The confusion wasn't cleared up until the 20th century. But the mistake wasn't present in any Scriptures of the time that these guys claim the Michigan artifacts were supposedly brought by Coptic explorers. So that's just another argument against the theory.
The name of the church is....
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.
As a native Michigander with Ojibwa heritage, I have deep roots and deeper love for the great lakes region. There is so much legitimate and fascinating history here to absorb and explore. It honestly upsets me that self indulged, depraved, and delusional scoundrels would dare muddy the waters just for 15 minutes of fame. Especially done in such a blatantly obvious format. It's despicable.
Very well said!
Curious how you gloss over all the company's in Michigan which destroy any artifacts found while excavating and building.
@@Howl-Runner those aren't the only ones destroying the earth in general, he didn't "gloss over" anything lol man I hope you find more happiness so your not trolling comments on you tube for self validation
WHAT DO SAY ABOUT THE VERY TALL SKELETONS FOUND ALL OVER AMERICA? WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THE ORAL HISTORIES OF MANY TRIBES THAT SAY THAT GIANT PEOPLE LIVED IN AMERICA THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO?
🧐🤦♂️🤣🤣
I thought ignorange was supposed to be bliss?
I sincerely hope you're not voting in elections or, God forbid, procreating.
I live down the road from the historical museum, used to be my favorite place to visit as a kid, the 50s and 60s era sections were always my favorite. Now my 12 year old loves going there every few months.
Museums was the only places except the Art, buildings on my 33 days of the best days of my life am now 73 occurred June 30- August 3, 1969 to Europe all expenses paid including air fare ,food and lodging with two per room with bus transportation throughout cost $1,000. The world has become worse not better thus no children as the population in free fall because too expensive with hunter gathering better for health of the human body everyone should know this since 1920.
All the discoveries in all the various locations and through the various years have one thing in common: James Scotford. The next big clue is that he was an artist. He painted signs and was a scenic artist. I myself have a fine arts degree and can tell you that it is a rare artist who does not have experience in a wider assortment of mediums than just one. Sculpture, metal working, pottery etc are very common skill sets that most artists have at least some experience with. This guy had the means, the motivation, and he and his sons were the sole source.
He was not much of an artist.
@@billshiff2060 Good enough to fool many.
Hehe
Only problem is that Henriette Mertz translated the relics and found them to be real
@@michaelsterling6163 There are people who believe the Loch Ness monster is real even after confessions from the fakers,.
I think that anyone who has seen hundreds of stone tools and thousands of artifacts, even if only in museums, would see these as certainly not having been buried for 1700 years. The writing, the incised lines, the lack of weathering and wear are absolutely not like actual artifacts, which are very rarely ever found in such pristine condition. Fun show and very well made.
Haha, right? I'm glad I'm not alone. Those are obvious forgeries at very first glance. They're not even good forgeries, they're so naive, as if made by a child- or some poor, uneducated farmer in the 1920's.
@@anarchy_79 Successful farmers in the 1920s were far from poor or uneducated.Where do you get such ideas?Many self made millionaires came off the farm.Guaranteed those farmers had high G,which simply means practical working intelligence.People like Ford,Edison etc.
@@anarchy_79 leave your mother out of it m8
@@davidkgreenYou can tell that's the type of nonsense that a Michael Bloomberg, Naom Chomski or a George Soros puts into a simple mind!
All the carving and lines were perfect. No weathering except on the copper but that’s easy to do with salt water.
I think the brightest red-light is the completeness of so many of the "objects" and the apparent lack (as far as I've been able to deduce) of accompanying evidence of habitations or ruins or rubble or trash and debris, nothing but pretty trinkets.
Do a little research, try to find out what happened to the Cities along the Mississippi river and in New Mexico, Arizona all up and down the Eastern US. There were large towns created by the various tribes of the Eastern Confederate in all 13 original states, do you think that the White man were going to leave evidence of their victims after they slaughtered them all? Do you think the few mounds remaining are the only things the "Mound Builders" created?
No, most of the time the US Government sent the "civil engineers" (don't know what they were called) but sent these crews out ahead of the "settlers" to loot and raze anything remaining of the cultures in the territories that were wiped out by the poxs and other diseases or driven out by the military! Then anything left the settlers would flatten as they created pastures, fields and homestead and towns...
@@oldogre5999 I'm pretty certain that the government (which was nowhere near as organized and well-equipped as modern governments) was not so systematic and motivated when it came to ruins and artifacts as you suggest. The relatively isolated conditions and the lawless nature of the frontier along with man's inherent greed and curiosity are more than enough to account for the lack of large-scale material evidence.
@@waynemyers2469 You are welcome to think as you like. Makes little difference to me, after all ignorance is bliss right?
@@oldogre5999 I wouldn't know, why don't YOU tell me because if you think the Michigan Relics were real you are the ignorant one.
@@oldogre5999 Did you give any thought at all to this before you typed it? So the government wiped out all traces of the habitations of ancient Christian communities in Michigan (that no one knew about until the 1890s?) but somehow left thousands of pristine, easily found artifacts? And why would they want to do that in the first place? You can believe whatever you want, but don't try to bullshit the rest of us.
There was a similar controversy in Davenport Iowa in 1877. A local minister, Jacob Gass, uncovered two slate tablets bearing Hebrew inscriptions from a burial mound. The Putnam Museum of Davenport was dragged into the controversy as he was on the board there. Several years later a couple of local guys confessed to the joke they were playing on Gass because he was so full of hot air about the Mound Builders being the Lost Tribes of Israel. It got out of hand when national media picked it up. The tablets are still in the Putnam Museum.
That kind of fakery happened quite a bit during that era. Apparently there were gullible people long before the internet and jokers and con artists to take advantage of them. P.T. Barnum inspired a lot of people.
They are Authentic Artifacts. *"Mainstream Academics/Archaeologists" are just married to their ,"19th Century Theory based Paradigm and Linear Timeline".*
aka the Darwinian Model Theory, there are an abundance of studies that suffice to prove their Paradigm inaccurate.
The facts are emerging at present and Peer Reviewed Science has and will have some exciting discoveries for our era's awareness.
These finds challenge their model, and that's why the scream fraud.
Sounds like he was a follower of Joseph Smith and Mormonism.
@@overbeb He was a Lutheran. That sort of idiocy was popular then. The forerunners of Graham Hancock and the rest of the ancient aliens crowd.
Anachronistic Mormons at work.
@@carlmally6292 Indeed, Joseph Smith merely co-opted an idea that was already pretty popular at the time (that's one of the reasons he got so many converts early on).
DOB 1960. My Dad and I collected many arrowheads in different areas of Central and Lower East Michigan. These are sacred to our family. Michigan is a place like no other on earth. Remember, it's ancient with Great Lakes that "raked" and carved millions of acres of land, rivers, lakes, streams and they made Michigan rich farmland and other resourceful soil that sustains humans and animals. Whales are now returning yo the Great Lakes as well. Lake Superior is the 2nd or 3rd deepest biggest freshwater lake in the world. I believe anything ancient could be found in these lands. The native American tribes thrived here. Michigan is very special. Visit, enjoy, love,bur take your garbage with you
It's true that "Native Americans" in the Great Lakes area used some copper arrowheads, but these were from "native" copper, (copper occurring naturally). There is no evidence they ever smelted copper, and these plates were made from smelted copper.
So whales are returning to the Great Lakes? Which are freshwater? Are they swimming up the Mississippi and then locking through the locks on the Chicago ship canal? Or coming up the St Lawrence and then swimming up Niagara Falls to get to Lake Erie?
@oldgysgt There are ancient mines in Michigan.
@@sufyb6432; yes, there is archeological evidence the natives were gathering and using native copper, (natural occurring copper in metal form), but there is no evidence that they were smelting copper from ore, (refining copper metal from copper bearing stone ore).
I want to assure you there are no whales in the Great Lakes. They are not returning as they have never been there.
the first problem tihe most of those findings where Soper and Scotford brought these 'respected' townspeople to randomly find these relics is that the constant coincidence "how they just happen to be where we searched", whereas in archeology search sites can get turned over for weeks and nmonths by large groups of trained professional with little or no fidings at all. The high freqency of these substantial and coincidential findings suggests that these pieces were buried weeks in advance, so that rain water would solidify the ground and cover the digging of a recently buried object.
the second problem is that many of these slate objects ought to be broken, cracked and so thoroughly worn by age that most of the inscriptions should not be legible.
I had that same thought. Too many were just WAY too pristine.
Co workers
I’m a Michigander and never heard of any of this, turns out for a very good reason, it’s a horrible attempt of a forgery.
It's good state lore though.
It goes well with the rest of the corrupt and debauchery in the state. I always assumed MI’s sad state of affairs is due to the unions, but it seems it’s deep at the core.
You did not hear about it because these are these artifacts were suppressed and hidden
From the public.
@@haredr6511 Watch your mouth, smoothbrain. Talk all the shit you want about the warzone south of Saginaw, but the rest of the state is paradise.
@@patriciamchenry “artifacts” more like artifakes.
I was at the meeting when Wayne May presented with Richard Stamps present, lots of evidence of Michigan Relics discovered over 100 years before Scotford and Soper were born. Yet when Dr. Stamps spoke to the same group he never acknowledged the compelling evidence presented by Wayne May. As a Full Professor with nearly 100 refereed articles in the scientific literate (biology and geospatial sciences) I was blown away at how he obviously had no intention of acknowledging the much earlier findings of the Michigan Relics. Most of his presentation was focused on Scotford and Soper calling them frauds, when the findings of many of the relics was obviously not a hoax. Many of the relics were found buried under the remains of Hopewell people. How did the hoaxers pull this one off. How come we find some relics in Southern Illinois. Did they ride a horse from Michigan to Southern Illinois just to plant some relics as a hoax? Come on folks, let's think logically.
Mormons trying to get the Book of Mormon artifacts they so badly want.
@garybowler5946 Mormons are a perfect example of what it means to be human. They are both wrong AND right. Or rather, right for the wrong reasons, lol.
Look up the Utah-Judah connection. It is fascinating.
If you read the Henrietta Mertz book called 'The Mystic Symbol" you will see the these artifacts were mainly found by farmers or excavations for cellars or foundations. And Henrietta was a court forensics expert and attorney who gave forgery testimony all the time. She knew that these carvings were softened with time and timeworn. She believed them to be authentic. Open your mind people!
@@therealdannymullenya Mormons originally believed all black people were evil, followers of Satan. Changed less than a hundred years ago. Tells your all you need to know
Yes, thinking logically means not being emotionally attached to side A or side B
I'm down in the east end of Monroe MI. Just south of the river and not far from the historic battlefields. I bought my house in 03& it was originally built in 1892. Ive found a lot of cool artifacts over the last two decades while renovating. Hell, i even thought i found gold inside some "black dirt" in the basement where the original foundation wall was caved in& replaced but all the surrounding dirt was left in the basement space. I have it saved somewhere but never tested it since it was just a few grains at that. I digress.....
I can go anywhere on my property and dig down 6" and find something. Most of the time it's broken glass, bones, old nails, glassware or ceramics, etc. From 6-12" down it's more of the same but sometimes you can find entire bottles still together or random pieces of metal. When i dug the 42" deep trench to run utilities out to my shop I found most of an old pot belly cast iron stove around 2ft or so deep. There's stuff scattered everywhere. And what is that stuff? Mostly garbage. Like legit garbage. Why? Because I'm guessing that over the last 130 ish years of homeowners, many of them threw their garbage directly on the ground or buried it when they felt like digging a hole or giving the kids a chore or punishment. I'm guessing the original builders just let their materials that went unused sit where they lay. Or tossed them to the side& the earth scooped them up in time. I've found a few dozen nails clumped together in spots. Like someone tossed a bag of them to the ground& said screw it. Or maybe they pulled them from old wood& tossed them in a pile for years. I'm guessing the people in the house tossed their food scraps out the windows for the chickens&pigs to pick off of& eventually they were stomped into the earth. In guessing a few of the homeowners were drunks& broke bottles around the yard. Add to that the trees in the yard& the lack of maintenence, it doesn't take but a few years for the earth to reclaim what was once on top.
Either way, 130yrs& it's nothing but garbage for 2-3ft down..... which means that i can only imagine actual artifacts from the past being pressed into the harder clay soil that sits beneath the soft dirt or sitting on bedrock or anywhere that would maintain them in location with minimal activity above. Ive yet to find anything worth actual value but i fill up a 5gal bucket every year full of garbage. Lol.
Lastly, for the same man to "find" multiple artifacts in various locations...... he must be the luckiest person ever or the best ever OR just a fraud...... lol. With that said, everyone enjoys a good dig. Just make sure you know where you're digging first and what may lay beneath. It's a simple phone call away to find utility lines
I live in Michigan in a 1896 farmhouse as well and I'm constantly digging up artifacts also. Pieces of glass bottles, pottery, plates (one with the full logo clearly visible, it was a very common 1800s manufacturer) and very rusty metal hardware. Like you said, it is most likely all of it was trash of the day. I keep most of what I find because it is interesting to me.
That's awesome!!! I would love to find artifacts around waterford. Also, pan that black dirt. Won't be too hard, there is plenty of gold here in Michigan. All glacial deposit unless in the UP there is some native gold.
I live in a home in Allendale, MI, I refer to as “our hovel”. It was built in 1870 by a Civil War Veteran and was, as I understand from older neighbors, a hog farm in it’s day. I can’t dig into the yard here ‘anywhere’ and Not find some kind of old something, like a piece of a farm implement, or an old shovel, hoe or pick of some kind or the other; there are glass bottles, some not broken, and just simply anything you can imagine from those days. If the house had been put up with the old wood balloon construction of those days it would most likely offer up relics too as I change the interior walls but, he put this one together with cinder blocks and mortar. That means no old newspapers or cowboy and Indian magazines, no old dolls and shoes, period cigars and God knows what else I have found in remodels of other old wood framed houses from the 1800’s in Grand Rapids and surrounding areas. In one job we found old letters from a young girl and her Civil War Soldier; in one she even spoke of the Government coming and taking their horses as they were needed by the Army. Fascinating stuff. There is enough real artifact items out there without the need to creatively develop fakes. Fakes tends to diminish the initial value of artifacts and those who pull that should be severely reprimanded by our culture. They don’t deserve their moments in the light and they cast negativity on the rightful place of the real thing.
Under the dousing art is 2 L shaped rods that cross directly over metal ...
Takes a bit of pratice but very reliable ...
A couple coat hangers will get you started...
Brass even gold are the best as the vibrate as well as cross ...
@@beardedxj I did find gold specs in it but who knows where it went. I have hoarder genetics so I save too much good shit as it is, let alone useless stuff. Lol. Combine hoarder genetics with being a handy man& it can add up way too fast. Lol. I clean shit out 4x a year& still think I have a mess. Although that may be the OCD kicking in.
If that many relics were left behind where are all the regular day items like pots pans weapon’s or did they just leave items with hieroglyphics on them 🤦🏻♂️
give me a minute, I'll have a cooking pot to sell you....
As if everyone was walking around back then with an inscribed tablet, like a mobile phone…. :)
Good point, or lije I said: what are niw lakes were a channel to the ocean and a water highway.
Pots pans and weapons are actually useful possibly
"I'm not an archaeologist, I'm a publisher", well that pretty much sums it up.
"don't get in the way of business"
Oh?
Yeah that was clear..
"Bringo!" - Dr. Steve Bruhl
Your wrong and must be a lefty. You lefties all think that you have to have a degree. You don't think so e one can learn just by reading and listening to other archeologist. I quit school in the tenth grade. But I love history and love to read. And so I did for years. Well I had to go to a psychiatrist to get a test done to see where I was intellectually. She got through with me after three hours of testing. And wanted to know where I went to college. She said I had at least three and a half years of college. I told her no mam, I. A welder fitter. Never went to college . And she said she had been doing this for forty years and have never been wrong. I said you are now. She got mad and said well how did you know all this History? I like to read. I don't hardly ever watch TV. She said most people quit reading after school. I found that amazing. Because I couldn't comprehend people not wanting to read.
I'm from that immediate area of Montcalm County. The locals always knew that the relics were fakes. Only outsiders thought they MIGHT be real. Our Grandparents joked about the relics.
How were they faked? And for what purpose?
Why would someone go around in that many areas, bury artifacts, the wait for the owners to fund them a 100 years ago?
@@denisesipsy1281 agreed. And how would they line up an ancient lunar eclipse so accurately in their faked depictions of history? Especially in 1904! Like, c'mon now. They were laypeople, uneducated people. They didn't know jack about ancient civilizations and even less about ancient eclipse dates 🙄
How could a hoax be so accurate?
I'ma go off of the usual scenario in these scenarios: its real, they want us to think its fake, so they added fakes to the mix to be discredit the real ones. Just like the Ica stones, the alien stuff, and everything else
My Grandparents joked about Bigfoot not being real. That didnt age well either.
Yep. It's not much more than a good laugh to us.
What's interesting about this, is that it has NOW become history, whether or not it was what it originally claimed. It is over 100 yrs old.
@AllyCat510, keep in mind that this video is probably 20 years old. So the video it’s self could be considered of history. The production quality is such that it doesn’t show its age much. Dr. Stamps is a friend of my dad, he’s currently 81 years old. In this video he’s probably in his early 60’s.
fake history
Would you wear a fake watch? Buy fake money? Would you destroy fakes to remove them from potential circulation that would dilute the value of real money? That's what these items do. they dilute real history and as such should be removed from any study or presentation. They do not teach or promote any real history unless you are studying forgery.
The expert at the end is utterly wrong about no prehistoric smelters. Shame that he didn’t know this. Copper smelting was definitely going on prior to Columbus.
When I went to Cahokia mounds in Illinois the museum claims that the natives who lived there were working copper.
He didn't say nobody did it; he said there have been no smelting sites found in that area.
Exactly!
@@tonybanana461 They said they were cold working copper, not smelting it.
Correct like in far away Oregon and Tennessee, but not Michigan.
So many artifacts basically found by just two men. You would expect lots of other Michigan folks making chance discoveries in their digging and construction work. But nothing really, zip, nada. Pretty weird batting average they had!
Justified proof we were not cuku for cocopuffs
@@odis-edgardavidsonthefamilyof Yes, people who buy into this are fruit loops.
Actually, artifacts are found during construction. In the area where I live, back in the 70’s / 80’s, new neighborhoods were going up like crazy. When bones and artifacts were turned up, they were quickly dumped in trucks and hauled off, so as not to be seen. It’s very sad, but the state and county would shut down the build sites for years, or forever, if they knew, so the builders protect their investments by getting rid of the evidence. Economics wins over history.
I myself as a kid, found what I now believe may have been an ancient drum, a piece of pottery with carved markings, and an arrowhead in the field across from my house. The “drum” and pottery were in the dirt under a small pile of rocks. Arrowhead was elsewhere in the field. Stupid kid, I thought nothing of the drum or pottery and tossed it. I still have the arrowhead. Point is, people find things and either don’t know what it is or purposely hide it.
Gougers
Yep.
The fact that others are unable to find anything like these pieces in that area (or surrounding areas) is a huge red flag that so many sadly don’t bother considering.
I mean, even with the truth coming out about the supposed artifacts, there are still people who refuse to acknowledge it and will try every way to justify continuing to believe it’s real.
"...hey, that's science. The door is always open."
The most honest, most mature, wisest perspective offered
Covering his lies, study his microreactions. He knows there are many that are real...
The door is always open…until Jesus is mentioned 🤔
Demons sure have a severe reaction to only ONE thing 🫃🏻
@@billgates3699 More like it's a common reaction to demonic use of Jesus .
Yeah that guy was my favorite too
The dude who figured out the eclipse tablet almost had me convinced tho
👍@@RAM-tc7xq - Stamps gives off an arrogant scoundrel vibe. Spacey should play him in the movies.
I'm a Michigander from Weidman, I always love to hear anything about the past here.
As a professional Geologist, I wonder why none of the artifacts shown have any soil (iron, humus) staining or any carbonate deposits on them as usually occur on ancient artifacts. To me, many of the "tablets" look like old slate roofing shingles from the Martinsburg Formation in PA. I am not aware of similar slate in MI.
I've lived in Michigan most of my life. I personally believe Michigan is definitely is a spooky place. With all the ledgends, crazy happenings, spooky places, heavy forests, wild weather & mysterious Lakes, it gets under your skin.
I am
Maybe if you drink the water 😂 ...
It is certainly a notable area. Born in Minnesota, visited Michigan there many times
@@JimofTheLionKings That's funny
Shirley: You still here?
Three minutes in and I new these was about "snake oil salesmen".
At least it's a good lesson to be extremely critical of those way out of place finds.
Little did they know, that some 900-1000 years ago, Scandinavian peoples of the Viking era would actually have established a small colony on the Atlantic coast of Canada, that was confirmed by real scientists over a half century of their respective deaths.
Unless other such finds of that magnitude are yet to be unearthed, anything smaller will be held in a highly skeptical view, do in large part to molesting actors such as these two perpetuated, and the damage they did attempt or have done, to the collective history of us all.
May the ancestors grant them their just rewards.
Their ancestors???
? More squatters ? LOL..Sorry, people of color were the earliest inhabitants ...not the Norskies. OK..who is the next bunch to claim our native land as theirs ????
This is a story about how even intelligent people can be fooled by obvious fake items if they wish those items to be real, especially if it "proves" some oddball theory of theirs.
Yes, like the evolutionists and their bone fragments with plastic molding to fill in the 99% gaps.
They’re called Mormons 😂
@ChillCat665 There were no horses or chariots in the pre-Columbian Americas.
@@koobs4549 You just put your finger on the reason archeologists are hell bent on declaring them fake as they did with the Book of Mormon. Check out the map of genetic haplo group x. It might sober you up.
I grew up in the Gaylord Michigan area in the 70's before phones and internet. My friends and I spent whole summers fishing and exploring the forest. I nor anyone I know ever find anything.The one cool thing we did find was huge trees bent and all pointing in a line. They were obviously bent hundreds of years ago on purpose directing people to a destination. Sadly most of that area was cut down by loggers.
they were called thong trees
The main question is loudly being proclaimed;
WHY are these items NOT part of a town or city?
Mounds are usually the residence of a past living community,
with all the elements of life scattered about.
What's the controversy? Only one guy finds them and he finds them in the counties where he moves to. NO ONE ELSE has to date found any in Michigan, yet he found thousands? Yes, the guy who faked it simply went to a library - they had those in the them olden days - and copied symbols from ancient civilizations all over the world. But since he didn't understand the language, he just used them as decoration. That's why we can't decipher the 'text' because it's just random letters. Anyone can make an oil lamp out of clay. There's even a tutorial for children to create one. Once you fire the clay it's indistinguishable from ancient oil lamps with some aging. Since this guy bought it from a collection and thus out of context for its surroundings, it's worthless as evidence of Mediterranean presence. Simply saying "Well the guy I bought it from has authenticated Native American pieces" doesn't prove anything. And why would anyone from the Mediterranean area come to the Americas for copper ore when Cyprus and Egypt and other such places were centers of copper production in the copper age? I wonder if that "mystical" etching on all the fake relics is someone's initials, as joke.
So fake, fake and fake.
The amount of copper used in the Bronze Age was so massive, the various sources around Europe and the Middle East have been questioned as to their ability to produce copper in those quantities.
If there is no providence all you have is a piece of metal or clay. This is almost as bad as the "Egyptians settled in the Grand Canyon I saw a few weeks ago..."
At the time they said people came to the great lakes for the copper the copper age was over, copper wasn't that valuable then
The simplest and most likely answer usually is in fact the answer. Aliens.
Fake. Fake. Fake. FAKE!!!. There. Just incase there was some doubt.
The truth is in-between but greed isn't.
My grandfather, he grew up in detroit back in the 1920s-30s. One day, coming home from school, he came across a museum that had closed and threw out a bunch of stuff. He grabbed as much as he could, a large collection of items. Some of them i believe are connected to these relics. I recognize the drill holes. My father has the collection now. uses one of the drilled pieces as a massage rock. Works great. Alot of native American axe heads, other stone items. We even have a zulu spear, with notch marks in it. I stand to inherit it. My grandfather, being a wood worker, made very nice displays of the items.
Grandfather also brought home a Japanese sword from the war serving in the pacific. To be able to hold these things in your hand, its something else really. The sword was a working sword and you can tell. It has wear. Handles are falling apart. Also have a bayonet from the franco german war of 1871, in excellent condition really for its age.
Lucky!
Have the sword looked at. It could be hundreds of years old. Some Japanese officers would use a sword that was handed down in their family for generations. Look it up, it wasn’t uncommon. They would repurpose the sword with a new hand guard and handle. There was an article less than a year ago that a WWII veteran returned a sword to a family in Japan that was made in the 16th century
There's markings on the tang under the handles, that's the sword makers mark, look up the symbols. The pawn stars had a few looked at and they ended up being worth tons of money
Mr Nobody you recognize the drill holes… are they similar to the holes in head!
I’ll wager your sword has markings “ made in Japan…Taiwan… China or Cicero, Illinois.
Michigan Relics aside, it is so refreshing to hear a scientist be open to new evidence changing the narrative (and even saying "that's science"). Such a huge contrast to prominent members in other scientific fields (Egyptology in particular springs to mind) who like to say variations of "the science is settled" or they have the "definitive" account of their field.
What you find so "refreshing" is simply the scientific method. Science is always open to new data and evidence, which changes the "narrative". That's how it works. Anyone who holds on to previous theories because they are particularly enamored with their own discoveries, or favorite theories, is no scientist. When that happens, the person in question goes down in history as a failed and fraudulent practitioner. Someone who establishes a theory, that is later proved to be in error after new data comes to light, is not discredited, but actually celebrated as part of the ongoing scientific method. It is no disgrace, unlike someone who would pervert the scientific method to hold on to their erroneous position. Those people are either examples of egotistic, unprincipled people who are not following actual scientific methods, or, as in the case of some Egyptologists who refuse to consider new data and findings, polluted by political, religious, or cultural influences. There is, actually, very few issues that could actually be termed "settled science". Every scientist actually knows that. The people who do not understand these things are ignorant of the scientific method, which is the best system humanity has to keep us from lying to ourselves in our examination of facts, history, etc.
Open to new evidence? What a concept! lol
You can tell the clear difference in intelligence between the different guys studying these… the one guy who took the artifacts to experts of the specific materials is absolutely how you find truth.. then he ended his interview by saying “that’s science it could easily change” admitting that he could be wrong and you hear no doubt in his voice he means it.. the other guys seemed angry or affirming their proof is undeniable.. it seems like they aren’t really doing the same caliber of work… I didn’t see one ancient Hebrew expert I just saw a guy who claims to know all about it. Putting words together with symbols in a tile that’s clearly fake with poorly drawn Indians watching a calendar… trying to attach a solar eclipse and meteor to shoenproof is really a stretch
No kidding like whoever created the tablet was doing it on the day of the eclipse and just happened to write the biblical happenings from hundreds of years earlier.
I have to say that if he falsified all this stuff he was amazingly prolific...thats a lot of work to do! Easier to just get a job.
Not a fake
@@odis-edgardavidsonthefamilyof Seems pretty straight forward that they are fake, unless you have evidence to the contrary.
Nah. As the video says, he had collaborators, and it really doesn't take that much effort to produce stuff like this, especially such poorly done stuff. I think the video says there are around 2,000 of these, and Scotford did this for around 30 years. That's about 70 artifacts a year - easy to churn out in a few months. Sell them to gullible people willing to pay a lot, and you've got a nice living plus notoriety to feed your ego, without having to work most of the year.
3000 artifacts dived by 25 years equals 120 artifacts made a year. 120 artifacts dived by 12 months equals 10 made a month. 10 artifacts divided by 4 weeks equals 2.5 artifacts made a week. It could've been done by one person easily. Just saying.
Far-fetched
not at all he just described how easy it would be, dummy@@ramsrnja
@@ramsrnja Lots of "Nuh uh!" and "NOT FAKE" comments like yours with zero evidence or reasoning offered.
And he didn't do it alone - he had collaborators helping produce them.
@@yohei72, you are right. If my memory severs me right, I don't think he or the others held a full time job outside of their craft of faking artifacts and even that wasn't a full time job.
All one has to do is look at Mesopotamian artifacts in the Middle East, compare them with the Michigan counterparts and one can see how amateurish the Michigan ones are. Seems pretty obvious.
The description of the Scotford/Soper 'relic hunts' is really all you need to realize that these are fakes. If you really can just dig any old place and come up with a bunch of artifacts, then everyone in Michigan should have found one by now. And yet somehow the only time anyone ever found one of these things was when Scotford & Soper were present.
Ppl seem to make these stories fit into their beliefs to support their thinking. For instance, the publisher is correct, he's not a geologist, archaeologist, or antiquities expert😂, its a fake oil lamp, or real one that was planted in West Virginia
His agenda is to prove that the Book of Mormon is true. Which in my opinion it is true. But he makes money doing seminars about the historocity of the Book of Mormon. He proposes that the stories in the book took place from Louisiana up to Michigan.
I am Mormon.
Most Mormons believe the lands and people described in the Book of Mormon are in Meso America.
The book of mormon talks about two groups of people leaving the middle east and coming America under God's direction.
Thus some of the people here anciently were descendants of Isreal.
Thevoil lamp is a classical fraud. It is not documented in any archeological dig in the US. So it could come anywhere. People are not aware how importatnt documentation is and what context a found exists.
I live in Illinois, there is a cave in central illinois where he discovered a trove of Egyptian artifacts. I believe he keeps the location secret, although he has shown some of the artifacts. This may also be connected to your collection. Sorry I don’t have more information.
Yes, I heard of this cave on 'Coast to Coast' radio many years ago.
Also deemed a hoax
Burrows Cave
Never heard of these artifacts. I know that mound culture existed in southern Michigan, but based on everything I’ve read that culture had a minor presence in comparison to Ohio and Indiana. And by the late 1800s, most most mounds were excavated or destroyed by farmers who got curious about that funny hill on the back 40 or wanted to flatten their field, so it’s unlikely that a hoard of artifacts would suddenly appear. It makes sense that the Michigan copper was traded by pre-Columbian native cultures, but that doesn’t prove the artifacts are real. The most far fetched artifacts are the written tablets. The etchings are way too clean and precise to be that old. slate is incredibly brittle so, it’s hard to believe they’d be in tact. there’s a lot of cherry picking by the ‘experts’ in this video and a lot of bs. They ignore the fact that books existed that provided examples of the writing and symbols on the tablets. I’m sure the Carnegie Mellon libraries that were popping up all over the country during the last 1800s had ample supply of these books. It’s sad that people continue to believe the artifacts are legit.
There was a sunken ship found in the Mediterranean with copper ore that matched that from upper Michigan. It was a bronze age vessel if memory serves. The copper pits of the upper peninsula used to be attributed to Indian activity but I think that theory has now quietly gone to bed.
This caught my eye because my grandmother moved to cass lake area and her boyfriend was Ojibwa who had found all kinds of arrowheads in that area. He jad put them on velvet and framed them but whats interedting is he had these relic things in the middle. They slmost look mayan but yet they were from MN.
People have always traveled. There's actually other evidence of trade between N&S and Central America. It really is only one continent, and though many many tribes, all basically from Asia/Mongolia 15-20 years ago. But the gov't doesn't want anything like legitimacy for South & Central Americans migrating north.
Check out the “grotesque” face oil lamp that was discovered in the foundations of Jerusalem; it is very similar to these objects. They seems like funerary votives to me.
This one person finds thousands of artifacts...only him? Really?
All I have to say is that those old hoaxsters were very educated to have come up with fake languages that had such high statistical correlation to actual languages and then put that into actual events. They really put a lot of work into that.
Even a fake language is invented to serve the purposes of facilitating grammatical communication -- a fake language *_will_* have high statistical correlation to existing languages, just due to the fact that it is a language. That's the nature of language, and of statistical correlations. If those old hoaxsters were *_that_* educated, they would have done a better job at weathering the "artifacts" to make the incised lines less fresh and crisp, and if they were *_really_* dedicated, they should have hired another artist to make some of them. As it is, every one of the artifacts shown in this video appears to have been made by the same artisan in the same workshop within the last couple of centuries *_at most_* . Incised lines this shallow would have been erased by the weathering process centuries ago if they were anywhere near as old as claimed.
I think at some point someone thought that the hoaxter guy had found a real artifact and, realizing he could make money, he used the emblems or "letters' from the first one to make more of them to sell.
Creating poor fakes that an expert can figure out at a glance is not a lot of work and doesn't take a high degree of education.
I can't speak to the statistical claims, as I'm not an expert, but neither is the person who claims to have made these statistical correlations, and pseudoscientists are fond of throwing around superficially impressive-sounding "stats" to bamboozle other non-experts.
Without an archeological dig provenance to confirm where the artifacts were discovered is suspicious?
It's pretty cool that we're so good at recognizing patterns, that we can train ourselves to tell which rocks were dug up where.
Love videos like this "experts state this" and yet "idiots disagree" well done folks lets take people and just give them all equal weight on their opinions.
Thank you!
Artifacts, relics and old world buildings, don't challenge the imagination -- they challenge the accuracy of the historical narrative we were taught.
Obvious hoaxes don't "challenge" anything
Aswell as being used for sinks slate was also very commonly used for roofing. many of the slate tablets look like obvious roof tiles that still have the nail holes in them. very easy to find at any construction site in the 1890's
Very balanced, you found the way to walk that fine line. Thank you! I wasn't so sure in the beginning.
THANK YOU for acknowledging this. I've a small collection that says there's a whole lot more going on then anything we could ever have imagined. AZ location for me. This excites me !!
I’m from where the Slate Museum is, and I recognize that slate sink and saw. I’m going to show this to my dad who was on the original board of the museum. He’ll get a kick out of this.
At 39:53, for the evidence of copper smelting. Back during the great depression there was a dam project that was put forth to put people to work and produce electrical energy. The area that was to be flooded once the dam was completed had evidence of ancient copper smelting (on stretched animal hides) leaving permanent marks on the ground which were documented via photography. Later in the late 20th century a shipwreck containing stretched ox-hide shaped copper ingots in the shape matching the photographs taken in the late 1930's early 1940's. I forgot what the Dam project was called, but there was a videos about it on You Tube some years back. There can't have that many massive dam projects in that area during the great depression, it's likely that the photographs could be found in the library of congress.
Those funds were from a later period than that claimed by the people who believe the Michigan artifacts were from the 300s.
Amazing the willing gullibility of intelligent people. Some of the Michigan artifacts are obvious forgeries. Doesn’t it stand to reason that some forgeries are better than others?
Many ancient explorers came through. They didn’t leave much because they were not settling.
Take the Spanish for example back in the 1600s. They were here. But only the French and English colonized the Great Lakes Region
The 1600s is not "ancient"
These artifacts are absolutely one hundred percent true and authentic!
I also have stones with the same symbols there like symbols with an eye and lines I retire to talk to the archaeologist on the phone and I felt they made fun of me and basically asked what I seen on the stones and I told them what I knew at the time and they told me they would send someone out and then hung up Never took my info lol
Idk how you can get help with this stuff but they are not a help
"Boy Who Cried Wolf." Archaeologists don't have unlimited time and funding, and believe me, they get nonsense calls all the time about supposed amateur finds. Sounds to me like they were pretty polite to you under the circumstances.
I'd love to see them
@@melvinwillis8869 I would love to have someone take a look at what I’m finding
I only show a few people because idk it seems so unreal I guess is the word
This is no controversy. I feel sorry for anyone who believed this garbage.
Dr Stamps is a bad ass. Went all the way to offer definitive evidence. Total pro
Mr. Stamps is opening up things that he claims to know nothing about and yet he's commenting on them. Plus he's misidentifying the grain of the wood what you might put some clay with saw marks that are clearly not consistent enough in any way shape or form to be marks made by a saw. Then eventually shows a circular saw and circular saws do not make straight cuts. They just don't! And then he comments eventually that he can't identify what Henrietta births was seeing, and yet he doesn't state that he has any background in languages. The man is a fraud commenting on shit he knows nothing about admittedly he knows nothing about them! I do understand the problem with the thin sheets of copper. Those are decidedly fraudulent for the most part. Because the American Indians use pounding stones to pound out their copper they could not have made sheets of copper even in their smelting operations down in Ohio. I do agree that there were no smelting operations yet found in Michigan. But many smelting operations by American aboriginals have been found in Ohio. And it cannot be denied. They've got slag present, which is consistent with a smelting operation amongst other things.
@@44hawk28 lol. Okay champ
He probably already knew they were fake at a glance, but he still went all the way to thoroughly debunk them.
@@44hawk28 Professor Facebook has spoken 🤣🤣
Absolutely outstanding documentary. I love in Grrand Rapids, Michigan. I remember when they found a bunch of things by the river.
Your city, GR, is the cleanest city I've ever visited. I live in FL.
🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
One of the books I've been reading this spring/summer is Barry Fell's "America B.C." He was an epigrapher, and died somewhat recently. There are stones around, especially in New England, but other places as well, that had been inscribed in what he, and others, called Occam script. That is a combination of Celtic, Phoenician (close to Israel) and then Carthage as well. This is before western Europeans, before 1492. Just asking that we not throw the baby out with the bathwater. One of the guys said that "Scofford polluted the artifacts." I think that that is more likely true.
Fell was a professor of invertebrate zoology--"best known for his pseudoarchaeological work in New World epigraphy, arguing that various inscriptions in the Americas are best explained by extensive pre-Columbian contact with Old World civilizations. His writings on epigraphy and archaeology are generally rejected by those mainstream scholars who have considered them." Not exactly the guy to believe on this topic.
It doesn't strike you as peculiar, the particular choices of old world scripts? They are commonly chosen as something that few people can read, but are familiar enough to be identified, which is exactly what a hoaxer needs. This kind of hoax can be found all over North America, especially the US. Don't be a sucker, don't open your mind to the point your brain falls out. For that matter, this stuff has been done for many centuries across the old world, long before the new world began to be overrun by Europeans. You'd have to be seriously stupid to just take this crap as anything but crude forgeries.
Equally wrong to do would be to treat his judges as though they were unbiased, scientists who did not have significant investment, in time if not money, into the structure of epigraphic archaeology of the present day and age. Science quits being science when it automatically will not consider the questions that consider its choice of facts, omitting those that would disprove them, or when it will not consider the driving presuppositions. When you permit the concept of "it is already proven science", you now begin to talk about either religion, or engineering.
@@TheEudaemonicPlague
Fell (1917-1994) was a person of extraordinary genius. His critics are always people who never knew him. His special knowledge was in ancient euro-mediterranean scripts. The new world studies came from the appearance of these scripts at new world sites. North America archeologists lacked the linguistic knowledge to critique Fell scientifically so they went ad hominem. Fell considered these Michigan artifacts to be 100% fraudulent and didn't waste any time on them.
The eclipse on July 26 over that one county is interesting, I would love for that to be real. Greed is so abundant on this earth and truth is so elusive because of it.
“There are notions so foolish that only an intellectual will believe them.” George Orwell
Right. Nobody ever talks about the Minoan Tablet at a museum in Saint Ignace.
Or all the floating cooper in the UP the feed the Bronze Age
I’ll talk about it: it’s not a Minoan tablet.
You’re welcome.
St. Ignacio,1st church, Americas
Ignacio us, ok yeah
1 minute in and as someone who is in no way a professional at all, those etchings look WAY too fresh to be thousands of years old
Only 4 hrs up, in very early morning , or very late night, and over 6,600 views.. it's fun to be together in this.
People should be more aware that in the turn of the 19th and 20th century it was very fashionable to "find relics of ancient high cultures" and fabrications were quite common. See Kensington runestone, its a prime example of the phenomenon
Every single time I see Michigan Pictographs and writing, I instantly think fake ! Every single show. Every single documentary. Fake is always the first word that comes to my mind whenever I see them.
Open your mind. They are real relics from an ancient people.
@@sufyb6432no, no they’re not. 🤣🤦♂️
My roots are in what was called "Westsylvania", where the current states of Ohio, PA and WV meet. While visiting there I went to the Moundsville WV state park, just across the river in WV. There it mentioned the "Grave Creek Stone" was found there, which it described as a fake. I thought nothing of it, until I visited "mystery mountain" and personally saw the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone there. I read that was a fake also, and so thought nothing more of it. Then I read about the Bat Creek Stone, which was labeled a fake. Then I found that there are at least eight geographically diverse places in north america where fake hebrew writing was found. I thought, huh, how did that happen? THEN, I read that the University of Haifa in Israel thought the Las Lunas Decalogue to be a classic example of a mezuzah, as used in ancient Samaria (not on a door frame, but carved in stone at the gate/entrance to a property), thought that all the reasons given by US "experts" for calling it a fake were actually what made it authentic, and were only puzzled as to how it got to what is now New Mexico. Hey, I like to quote Shultz: "I know nothing." But something is going on here.
Any links or videos describing what the university in Israel clarified regarding the tablets?
LoL 😂😆 I love Shultz 😊
Get Henrietta Mertz's book called "The Mystic Symbol". It's the story of the Michigan artifacts that she collected in the 1950's. I believe these are authentic and it just didn't 'fit the university narrative' of the day. It still doesn't.
This is the difference, you believe other seek evidence. As there is no evidence that this is anything, but modern creations.
Wayne May is a Mormon, he views reality through his religious views.
Yes and that view is that Jesus was the brother of Satan. And such strange Mormon views were known way before the 1890's and the forgers knew about it as well.
Ancient people inhabited this country before the native Americans. The great lakes tribes know the history.
that guy claiming St Constantine "wanted there to be a trinity but arius didnt" is so crazy false i dont believe anything else that guy said.
David deal. that guy.
the Trinity was believed by all Christians before the Arian heresy, not just St. Constantine.
The self taught scholar is a gem
Millions of those oil lamps but no colonists ever traded them to the indians
Pretty coincidental that he went to two different states and found hundreds of these artifacts while no one else ever found them on a dig he wasn’t involved with.
I definitely agree that man has always used the ocean for travel. I spoke with a Navajo man about their origins and he said they came from the east, that there were descriptions of the land as they traveled west and that Archaeologists didnt know what they were talking about telling them that they came from the north across a land bridge because he knew his ancestors came cross the ocean in boats shaped like turtle shells- which as it happens also lines up with things found in the book of mormom.
The Polynesian people 100% made it to the Americas they colonized the whole of the Pacific Ocean, they were the most prolific travelers except maybe the Malaysian/Aboriginal people they arguably colonized just as large of an area and may actually be partially related in places like New Zealand. I read a story once about a red haired freckled native woman from Hawaii and she said her family had a legend that they came from Egypt area, her DNA definitely had markers from that area but they also could have been later additions also.
While I am not a die hard supporter of the current native origin theory of Orthodox science. There are some facts that need to be addressed here . #1 Tribes in Alaska speak a language that is a parent tongue to the language family of the Dine' ( Navajo) and Apache . #2 The Pueblo people retain a historic memory of the arrival of the Navajo / Apache people in the 1300's AD , and the archaeological evidence of violently destroyed villages , and the change of valley pueblos to fortified cliff dwellings testifies to the truth of these legends. #3 the Moccasin pattern of the Athebacsan people in Alaska matches the the pattern of Apache styles , as do many cultural and religious ideas .
@@ronhoy8913 its more likely a mix then. Evidence says two different things, so perhaps both are true and groups intermarried. Which makes more sense then not as it was against the rules to marry within your own tribe for the Dene
To mention Nicea without mentioning that it was a despute between Athenatius and Arius. Also, make it Dan Brown level conspiracy is pretty dumb.
I'd like to know what Dr. Irving Finkel would think of the cuneiform writing. Irving Leonard Finkel is a British philologist and Assyriologist. He is the Assistant Keeper of Ancient Mesopotamian script, languages and cultures in the Department of the Middle East in the British Museum, where he specialises in cuneiform inscriptions on tablets of clay from ancient Mesopotamia.
Wonder why they don't mention "Mormon" James E Talmage - a professor and Church official - who examined the "relics" and declared them as fakes?
They may be fakes, but Talked he knew that there were ancient people who lived in that area before the native Americans.
Im glad Talmage didn’t just buy in because of his faith. It’s also nice to hear that the LDS church sought out a legit Michigan archeologist to examine the collection. It would have been tempting to use this stuff to corroborate certain beliefs.
Something happened for sure around the Younger Dryas event. The last ice age. Here in Southern Ohio there are lots of evidence left over from the last ice age. Lots of Native American history here also. Live about 30 mins from the famed Serpent Mound. If any of these ancient Civilizations or people are proven true, then they change the history of North America. Which they can't have that. Just think of how much knowledge has been lost do to money, egos, politics.
It's not lost. It's hidden and the term occult is used as a scare tactic.
These people are related to the mound builders. They came from the same place at different times.
I’ve seen something like this in New Mexico where I live in los lunas and Tijeras canyon
The slate artifacts just don't look real, the biggest gripe I have is where is the patina? Something buried in the damp ground or even lying on the floor of a dark cave will LOOK OLD! Those things look like they were etched just yesterday! Just brilliant white lines, if they were actually ancient the etching would be more of a very dull white to a yellow or tan color.
I agree most of them are fake but maybe the guy found something real at first and then saw dollar signs. Ten years ago my daughter was tubing on the Muskegon river, she stopped at a small island in the middle of the river. She found what looked like a arrow head with a hole in the bottom. It’s made of stone and looks old.
Humans have been boring holes to make pendants for at least the last 37,000 years. People have found perforated stone artifacts in deposits confidently dated to the Upper Paleolithic.
What was never explained in this story was how did the authentic Roman, dated coins get in Michigan? Those artifacts were not real yet the Roman coins were.
Theyre all far too pristine for being buried as long as they would have to have been buried...
I have to say that these artifacts are way too new looking to be as old as they say. Actual artifacts from that era are much more deteriorated, especially if they have been in the ground. I have to believe that the BoM, and the golden plates are a complete miracle. There is no way that without divine intervention the plates could have sat in a stone box for about 1600 years and come out legible. How on earth did that box not get flooded? It was extremely well made.
Those golden Mormon tablets have never been seen other than by Joseph Smith, why were the tablets not saved and preserved by your church.
@@tenabarnes3269 No, they were returned to the Angel. Through the power of Jesus Christ there are resurrected beings and the plates were precious to them. Besides, we are trying to convince you to trust the science and this is the proof the plates are true. We are trying to get you to read the text, feel the spirit and become converted. That is not a materialistic process facilitated by evidence, it’s a spiritual process facilitated by faith, prayer and personal study.
@@AmericanFire33 Your last sentence is a contradiction, believe because you need to believe; your previous sentences are just ridiculous.
@@tenabarnes3269I think the front pages of the BoM states that there were several people who examined the plates before the plates got returned to the angel
This is so interesting. Unfortunately there are commercial breaks every 5 minutes or so. Too many commercials!
"Not only are these fake, these are bad fakes!" Enough said.
I know the Book of Mormon is true and I believe the Nephites lived inside of the US, however, I know about Poe’s law. I am of a mind that this is a parody of the BoM. Non-Mormons know a lot about it and they are perfectly able to mock and ridicule us. This is just a very extreme example of it.
I’m neither defending nor (entirely) opposing the legitimacy of (some of) the relics. I will say that the alleged saw marks look more like old worn down wood (strong grains stick out more than the worn down weak ones)…as a guy who has actually cut plenty of wood, I’m failing to see the sawmarks in question. It’s more likely that the clay was placed upon a table or boards made from weathered wood.
Yes, those boards would need to be cut…but something from a sawmill would show a more circular cut . It would be more obvious than this expert claims (maybe he hasn’t cut a lot of wood 🤷♂️). Perhaps they could show other pics with a more circular cut in the grains?
So when the guy moved and then found artifacts where he moved to, was a red flag. At that point, I'd heard enough.
When i first saw the artifacts i was very skeptical but thought "well, maybe its possible", after watching this i believe it even less. They succeeded in assuring me they are a load of crap.
When I was a kid I grew up in Flint Michigan and I would find arrowheads all the time in the dirt. It wasn't nothing to find a new Arrowhead
i grew up in flint as well😎
Fantastic film! I would absolutely love to see an identical production about the Voynich manuscript!
Sadly, fakes dilute the waters of potentially legitimate history. It makes it harder to learn what really happened.
Read the Book of Mormon if you really want to know what happened.
Fakes are sometimes created and planted to serve as a misdirection. This is classic Russian KGB psy-ops. Obama's party operatives may have done that so as to more credibly hide his true birth certificate should it be discovered. Many fakes were brought forward to prepare the way.
@@sufyb6432 It's the fact that they have long declared the Book of Mormon to be fake that the non-Mormon detractors must now declare any physical evidence confirming the Book to be fake. But some of the confirming evidence, such as DNA can't be faked nor declared to be fake. So they have to focus on relics.
They forgot to add Joseph Smith to this relic creation business
I don't think there is any controversy, and I don't believe any of the "finds" have been duplicated any time recently. These where clearly hoaxes.
Who in the modern world would make these objects and bury them knowing ancient writings. Of course this is real. Yes, you see these kind of objects around Mediterranean region museums.
Something people forget- a 3000 year old artifact could have been brought over 100 years ago and lost.....
That would explain the Clay oil lamp, but not the thousands of bogus ""artifacts" these con artist were "finding".
@@oldgysgt agree completely.....
If you have not been to the petroglyphs in cass city, go when you can!
there is a menora carved into it. The guides there are awesome as well.
I’ve been there many times! Very cool place!
Where is Cass City? And where are these petroglyphs?
You should do a video on the Newberry tablet.
I was born in Newberry MI.
@@au7-721 I'm from St.Ignace.
I'm looking forward to seeing this. I'm developing a channel based solely on Great Lakes, specifically Michigan history. Crosschecking facts requires much more diligence than I realized, but I want to get things as close to accurate as possible. I'm a Michigan "native," that is, Detroit born, not Native American, not even a bit.
Christopher Columbus on his voyage to America brought with him a gentleman for one purpose and that was because the gentleman spoke Hebrew. Columbus knew that some of the tribes of Israel had migrated to America.
I don't think the Diffusionists are doing anything useful for themselves by hitching their cause to these artifacts. There are enough verified (Vikings) and likely cases ( like the Kon Tiki thing, theories about the Chinese, Irish etc) It's quite possible in isolated cases. However this doesn't serve their cause. Also did these Copts show up, leave artifacts behind and leave only these traces and no other everyday items or signs of habitation? Or remains that would be distinct from Native Americans?
They can't help but to speak the truth whether it serves their purpose or reveals their self interest
Perhaps they lived in structures that did not survive. Doesn't mean they weren't there.
@@sufyb6432 Maybe aliens abducted them and all their villages and just left behind all the decorated artifacts because they didn't like them. Doesn't mean they weren't there.
Maybe maybe maybe maybe maybe........