This video completely changed my view on this. I'd love to see RZ address a lot of these points in a response video. I think it's stupid to retreat, but leaving due to stuff like false doctrine or acceptance of the letters league (as I call them) or female pastors is perfectly valid, and not retreating unless you are on the verge of retaking the institution.
The expectation of success or failure of the mission (in the long run) will be determined by your eschatology. I agree with your point about women’s ordination but more importantly it’s the hermeneutical axioms behind it that set the trajectory for liberalism. From it also come egalitarianism and the gay theology interpretations of the Bible. I wrote extensively about this in a book titled “Do Not Be Deceived.” One issue not addressed in this video (unless I missed it) is Paul’s epistles to the church at Corinth. The issues in the church are not unlike today, yet Paul didn’t tell everyone to leave and start another congregation down the road. Though he did say they were not to eat with someone who called themselves a Christian yet lived in open rebellion against the law of God (1 Corinthians 5 /Leviticus 28:8).
I want to thank this channel for putting into words and videos what I've always felt, but due to having a mental disorder, was never able to articulate properly. While I'm not in agreement with everything you guys say across your videos, I just want to thank you for this one. God bless.
Dr. Adam Koontz gave a good critique recently mostly based on the fact that the governance isn’t just changeable from the grassroots. As you point out, becoming a majority conservative congregation doesn’t change seminary ordination and admissions.
It was a good critique! I was actually the question asker. By the time the episode was out we had already completed the script to our video but it was nice to see some overlap in perspective!
RZ's reconquista project makes the most sense if you have an American Protestant view of church fellowship. If I were a Church of the Nazarene layman I'm sure I'd be fine with double dipping membership in the Nazarene church and the UMC or UCC in support of Reconquista. Go to my Nazarene congregation at 9:15AM and then straight to the nearest moderate mainline congregation of similar background for their 11 service. The Lutheran view of communion and fellowship precludes me trying to do the same thing as a Lutheran with an ELCA, NALC, or Lutheran Brethren church.
"Do not be deceived: bad company corrupts good character." 1 Cor 15:33 And Paul says this in connection with those who deny the resurrection. Let's not be deceived.
Thanks for the fair critique: a few brief responses - the map is mostly based on word-of-mouth recommendations so sometimes we miss details because we're fed bad information - Machen expressed retreatist ideas before getting kicked out - You make good points, but I just don't see any alternative for rebuilding institutional Protestantism
If we assume for argument's sake that rebuilding institutional Protestantism should be a priority, the strongest horse for that right now is probably the Christian Classical Education movement, which has broad ecumenical appeal but is virtually impossible to pursue through the mainline churches. Have you heard of Luther Classical College?
That is definitely something we should be doing. One issue is that it is seriously questionable whether we have the knowledge, skilled labor, and simple will to build things like that anymore.
Thanks for this video. I am going through catechesis in the LCMS and I kind of felt guilty for not wanting to join the ELCA because of RZ's videos. I remember in one of his videos, he mentioned how a woman at a PCUSA camp he went to called unborn babies parasites or something. To be honest, I can't imagine fellowshipping in a church body where that type of statement is tolerated. I do like RZ's channel but I think I ultimately disagree with him on this
He just recently put out a video wherein he referred to J Greshem Machen as the "patron saint of the retreatist mentality" because Machen was fired from a PCUSA seminary for being conservative and then subsequently founded the OPC denomination. Apparently in RZ's mind he should've joined another mainline protestant denomination and tried to change that instead.
OPC is fundamentalist, not just conservative or confessional. The PCUSA could become as conservative as the PCA is now and OPC types still wouldn't be happy there.
The OPC and the PCA are sister denominations in NAPARC, plenty of cross traffic between them, plenty of ministers have been ordained in both denominations, if by some miracle the PCUSA actually became uniformly conservative and confessional (not neo-orthodox) and joined NAPARC it would be much the same.
He has repeatedly said the project is not just about retaking the pretty buildings, yet he includes American Baptist Churches USA as one of the mainline denominations that needs to be reconquered. Even though the SBC is far larger, far and away more institutionally poweful and culturally significant, and at least as historically grounded as ABC USA. But the SBC has ugly churches which seems to be the only reason RZ would consider it a priority for Baptists to retake ABC-USA. He once said Lutherans are the least needful of Reconquista because the LCMS is about as institutionally and historically grounded as the ELCA, while the conservative counterparts to the other mainline denominations are all very new and institutionally weak. But that's really only even facially true for Presbyterians and Anglicans. Baptists have the SBC. Wesleyans have the Church of the Nazarene. UCC members can basically just go anywhere.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 My point is, if Lutherans are less needing of Reconquista than Presbyterians or Anglicans because we have the LCMS, Baptists would need it even less than Lutherans because they have the SBC.
@@redeemedzoomer6053the SBC has issues with liberalism (as does the LCMS) just not nearly to the degree of the other mainlines. If you want to be Baptist or Lutheran, shoring up the SBC and LCMS is at least as good of an option as joining an ABCUSA or ELCA church. And yes, there are some nice looking SBC churches.
I've literally seen people start coming to my Lutheran church because of Zoomer. Anyone calling people to go to church, care about theology, and fight for their respective synods is an ally in my book. This video had better be a thankful and glowing ecumenical review with some constructive criticism.
I had a cordial discussion with a Danish Lutheran (Truth Unto Godliness) on his channel about Christianity. I wish [real] Christians the best of luck in kicking leftism out of your Churches. With that said, I am skeptical, as universalism and egalitarianism are the logical conclusions of Christian premises.
I will say, a family's faith might be more safely guarded in a conservative or moderate PCUSA congregation, perhaps even one with a female "pastor", than a confessional PCA congregation. Because Calvinist confessional theology is very dangerous at its core.
I legit think Zoomer is a good dude (even though he banned me from his Discord for “sexism”). I try to pray daily that he has success even though I am in the LCMS and not the Reconquista. I hope others will do the same.
@@unit2394 there’s definetly something reddit/soy male about him for being so quick to ban people from his discord, and giving moderator spots to underage girls.
![Theses of Examination Concerning Signs and Wonders in the Modern Church [Scriptum #31]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/N5fWi5r4vl0/mqdefault.jpg)
![Against Wayne Grudem: New Testament Prophets Cannot Err [Scriptum #32]](/img/n.gif)
I'm only 14 minutes in but this is a very well made video! Congrats on that.
This video completely changed my view on this. I'd love to see RZ address a lot of these points in a response video. I think it's stupid to retreat, but leaving due to stuff like false doctrine or acceptance of the letters league (as I call them) or female pastors is perfectly valid, and not retreating unless you are on the verge of retaking the institution.
The expectation of success or failure of the mission (in the long run) will be determined by your eschatology. I agree with your point about women’s ordination but more importantly it’s the hermeneutical axioms behind it that set the trajectory for liberalism. From it also come egalitarianism and the gay theology interpretations of the Bible. I wrote extensively about this in a book titled “Do Not Be Deceived.” One issue not addressed in this video (unless I missed it) is Paul’s epistles to the church at Corinth. The issues in the church are not unlike today, yet Paul didn’t tell everyone to leave and start another congregation down the road. Though he did say they were not to eat with someone who called themselves a Christian yet lived in open rebellion against the law of God (1 Corinthians 5 /Leviticus 28:8).
I want to thank this channel for putting into words and videos what I've always felt, but due to having a mental disorder, was never able to articulate properly. While I'm not in agreement with everything you guys say across your videos, I just want to thank you for this one. God bless.
Dr. Adam Koontz gave a good critique recently mostly based on the fact that the governance isn’t just changeable from the grassroots. As you point out, becoming a majority conservative congregation doesn’t change seminary ordination and admissions.
Yes. Change happens top down and is elite driven.
It was a good critique! I was actually the question asker. By the time the episode was out we had already completed the script to our video but it was nice to see some overlap in perspective!
RZ's reconquista project makes the most sense if you have an American Protestant view of church fellowship.
If I were a Church of the Nazarene layman I'm sure I'd be fine with double dipping membership in the Nazarene church and the UMC or UCC in support of Reconquista. Go to my Nazarene congregation at 9:15AM and then straight to the nearest moderate mainline congregation of similar background for their 11 service.
The Lutheran view of communion and fellowship precludes me trying to do the same thing as a Lutheran with an ELCA, NALC, or Lutheran Brethren church.
Well said, thank you for this well thought out and biblical critique.
"Do not be deceived: bad company corrupts good character." 1 Cor 15:33
And Paul says this in connection with those who deny the resurrection.
Let's not be deceived.
Thanks for the fair critique: a few brief responses
- the map is mostly based on word-of-mouth recommendations so sometimes we miss details because we're fed bad information
- Machen expressed retreatist ideas before getting kicked out
- You make good points, but I just don't see any alternative for rebuilding institutional Protestantism
If we assume for argument's sake that rebuilding institutional Protestantism should be a priority, the strongest horse for that right now is probably the Christian Classical Education movement, which has broad ecumenical appeal but is virtually impossible to pursue through the mainline churches.
Have you heard of Luther Classical College?
Solution: become Lutheran
Jk (kind of)
@@williampeters9838 you mean LCMS lutheran, right?
The solution is to build new, beautiful churches that will be “traditional & historic” 100 years from now
That is definitely something we should be doing. One issue is that it is seriously questionable whether we have the knowledge, skilled labor, and simple will to build things like that anymore.
Well said. I've been blind sided by some of his arguments for this and now I understand why they are wrong.
He misrepresents, the Lutheran doctrine of Law and Gospel. Pls do a response to that.
He Misrepresents Presbyterianism too, I would say don’t get your info on the Reformed from him.
I have yet to find a doctrine he doesn’t misrepresent
Thanks for this video. I am going through catechesis in the LCMS and I kind of felt guilty for not wanting to join the ELCA because of RZ's videos. I remember in one of his videos, he mentioned how a woman at a PCUSA camp he went to called unborn babies parasites or something. To be honest, I can't imagine fellowshipping in a church body where that type of statement is tolerated. I do like RZ's channel but I think I ultimately disagree with him on this
This is gonna be really interesting
agreed
He just recently put out a video wherein he referred to J Greshem Machen as the "patron saint of the retreatist mentality" because Machen was fired from a PCUSA seminary for being conservative and then subsequently founded the OPC denomination. Apparently in RZ's mind he should've joined another mainline protestant denomination and tried to change that instead.
@@WizardOfTheDesert we address that here. Not the exact quote, but his impression of Machen.
OPC is fundamentalist, not just conservative or confessional. The PCUSA could become as conservative as the PCA is now and OPC types still wouldn't be happy there.
The OPC and the PCA are sister denominations in NAPARC, plenty of cross traffic between them, plenty of ministers have been ordained in both denominations, if by some miracle the PCUSA actually became uniformly conservative and confessional (not neo-orthodox) and joined NAPARC it would be much the same.
A Lutheran quoting so much Calvin to contradict a Calvinist amazed me today
He has repeatedly said the project is not just about retaking the pretty buildings, yet he includes American Baptist Churches USA as one of the mainline denominations that needs to be reconquered. Even though the SBC is far larger, far and away more institutionally poweful and culturally significant, and at least as historically grounded as ABC USA. But the SBC has ugly churches which seems to be the only reason RZ would consider it a priority for Baptists to retake ABC-USA.
He once said Lutherans are the least needful of Reconquista because the LCMS is about as institutionally and historically grounded as the ELCA, while the conservative counterparts to the other mainline denominations are all very new and institutionally weak. But that's really only even facially true for Presbyterians and Anglicans. Baptists have the SBC. Wesleyans have the Church of the Nazarene. UCC members can basically just go anywhere.
not true, SBC has tons of nice building. I don't consider it part of the Reconquista cuz it needs none
@@redeemedzoomer6053 My point is, if Lutherans are less needing of Reconquista than Presbyterians or Anglicans because we have the LCMS, Baptists would need it even less than Lutherans because they have the SBC.
@@redeemedzoomer6053the SBC has issues with liberalism (as does the LCMS) just not nearly to the degree of the other mainlines. If you want to be Baptist or Lutheran, shoring up the SBC and LCMS is at least as good of an option as joining an ABCUSA or ELCA church.
And yes, there are some nice looking SBC churches.
I've literally seen people start coming to my Lutheran church because of Zoomer. Anyone calling people to go to church, care about theology, and fight for their respective synods is an ally in my book. This video had better be a thankful and glowing ecumenical review with some constructive criticism.
That's not what the Reconquista is about. The critique is about the Reconquista movement, not his channel as a whole.
I had a cordial discussion with a Danish Lutheran (Truth Unto Godliness) on his channel about Christianity.
I wish [real] Christians the best of luck in kicking leftism out of your Churches. With that said, I am skeptical, as universalism and egalitarianism are the logical conclusions of Christian premises.
I will say, a family's faith might be more safely guarded in a conservative or moderate PCUSA congregation, perhaps even one with a female "pastor", than a confessional PCA congregation. Because Calvinist confessional theology is very dangerous at its core.
He’s so annoying
Yes he is!!! I do know that we're too thinking the best about our neighbor, but WOW.
Nah, dude's fine. And I say it as someone nearing the age when people annoy you just by the merit of being younger than you.
@@igor9204nah he got the Redditor voice
I legit think Zoomer is a good dude (even though he banned me from his Discord for “sexism”). I try to pray daily that he has success even though I am in the LCMS and not the Reconquista. I hope others will do the same.
@@unit2394 there’s definetly something reddit/soy male about him for being so quick to ban people from his discord, and giving moderator spots to underage girls.