Thank you for your work with unconventional horn designs. I love horns. .. no one to my knowledge is horn loading direct radiator speakers except for Ocean. Great work !!
I am a horn lover....and I love the idea of something flat reproducing the sound that the studio recorded, with something flat...intelligebility is what good sound is...and linear time aligned frequency projection is the key... I like it...
Good to see you do this from a audiopile perspective in the Carribbean we been doing horn loading with speaker a while now for car shows....... interesting to see the results graph wise tho makes making custom flare and throw box's easier with greater consistency interns of tuning
would be great if you could show a step by step how to model a horn in hornres for this particular driver. so we or i would love to try use other planars or model them at least :)
Given the off-axis horn response, I want to measure it in a longer (deeper) horn. I wonder if the additional time traveling near parallel would clear up some off-axis aberration. I'm going to start working on horn loading the Dayton planar mid, it has that similar climb to 10kHz.
McGurk effect may be in play there. I wonder if the horn wasn’t visible you would think the same. I didn’t hear the famous cupped hands effect that still lingers in our vocabulary after technology has since eliminated it. It sounded real and natural ( as can be through my headphones)
Have you ever considered horn loading a magnepan like mgm-w made to hang on wall or even the mini satellite woofer section and would this be possible I think you are on the right track keep up the work thanks Todd
Please quick question, I want to mount a 6.5 driver in a ported box tuned to 50hz and then add a tractrix horn in front of the 6.5 driver. Was wondering if you had any idea what might be of such a design
Jeremiah Thompson A Horn will provide 8-9 dB increase in sensitivity. A horn will provide this boost for 2.5 - 3 octaves. So you have to factor that in when considering a front horn.
I’ve seen it done where the a rear loaded horn is combined with a front horn. Some of the old Lowther cabinets did this. The Tannoy Westminster is another example.
Lovely experiment there bru! Be nice to see the distortion plot for the horn though it's not really fair until you correct the throat and flare discontinuities obviously lol xx
Thank you! Yes the CD horn is not ideal for hifi however it does some things very well. The E-250 double planar front horn is the natural evolution from this design revision. From there I’ve developed the Nighthawk front horn. Distortion on the planar can be read on some of my blog posts, but generally it is very low at around 0.22%.
Dodgy Brothers Engineering I forgot to provide this. I will put it up somehow. Good observation on the chamber volume. I could remove the rear cover to see if that changes anything.
@Joseph Crowe's DIY Speaker Building have you tried to horn-load the Neo in a dipole configuration ? It would be interesting to see how much just the horn contributes to linearize the response (that's the gain in the Neo natural lower range) and how much the horn+seal one does (the configuration you tested). ps: have you ever tested the Neo 10 ?
I haven’t measured the response without the rear chamber. I only listened and subjectively sounded very poor. I haven’t tried the neo10. I’m currently trying the Beyma TPL-150.
Hi first of all thank you sincerely for disclosing all your excellent and very valuable work. You say "I discover that horn loading significantly flattens the frequency response from 180Hz to 10kHz! " Great indeed ! however i think i have missed the part regarding the distortion. Did you run any distortion test on the horn loaded driver ? often i hear about horn introducing some kind of distortion that makes the sound unnatural ? actually some people say that designing and making a good sounding horn is an art. Shape and material being very critical
Thanks dude nice one, i am not at all into horns but do make allot of planar tweeters (also on my youtube channel) and i never tried a horn for it. so this is a really nice video for me. the gain is insane by the way. weird to see the rising response return of axis. i think it might be canceled out on axis. so its there just some weird phase issues. just my guess :) I might try a thing or 2 like this, not sure where to start with the horn building... but i guess i could self teach with some browsing... or maybe allot of browsing :) By the way did you need any thiele small parameters to model this horn ? since most planars dont come with any.
joppe peelen thanks for your comments. Hornresp is very accurate however it doesn’t allow you to load the RMA and ZMA files to see the final response. To complicate matters I don’t have the T&S on the NEO8. So I’m left making many assumptions for simulation. That is why I did the experiment because currently there is no way to simulate accurately.
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding aha ok the lack of TS from planars in general kept me back from using hornres. but i see you have the same problem :) and did go the trial and error method :) well i can try getting ts from mine. Actually adding a known weight of tape to it and do the TS measurement in rew.... hmm i am gone do that this week. problem might be that it the foils allow it only one time :) so :) haha hopefully nothing goes wrong
I could try myself using a known volume within DATS speaker tester software. That would be better than added mass since you’ll physically deflect the diaphragm due to point loading your added mass. T&S requires a distinct impedance spike at FS too. I’m not sure if there is one on the impedance curve but I’ll soon find out!
I've posted the Spectrogram and Distortion plots for all three tests on my instagram profile @joseph_crowe_diy I forgot to include those results in the video for comparison.
A AL Hi, I’ve since made the plans available on my website after getting many requests. Click on this link.... josephcrowe.com/collections/speaker-plans/products/summer-rain-front-horn-drawing-package-1
Also, the flat pack is available for a pair of horns. I’m shipping into late June though... I’m waiting for my new CNC router to arrive in a week or so. josephcrowe.com/collections/frontpage/products/flat-pack-for-summer-rain
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding I apologize, I just found the other video with the links and I was coming back to delete the question, but you were faster than me!! :) This is great, many thanks again!!
As usual horn speakers have no equal and adding the planar just icing on the cake.
Thank you for your work with unconventional horn designs. I love horns. .. no one to my knowledge is horn loading direct radiator speakers except for Ocean. Great work !!
I am a horn lover....and I love the idea of something flat reproducing the sound that the studio recorded, with something flat...intelligebility is what good sound is...and linear time aligned frequency projection is the key...
I like it...
really great concise experiment. 👍
Good to see you do this from a audiopile perspective in the Carribbean we been doing horn loading with speaker a while now for car shows....... interesting to see the results graph wise tho makes making custom flare and throw box's easier with greater consistency interns of tuning
Quite impressive (and a bit unexpected) test results. Thanks for sharing!
would be great if you could show a step by step how to model a horn in hornres for this particular driver. so we or i would love to try use other planars or model them at least :)
Love it ! Your on the right track .
very useful information
Given the off-axis horn response, I want to measure it in a longer (deeper) horn. I wonder if the additional time traveling near parallel would clear up some off-axis aberration. I'm going to start working on horn loading the Dayton planar mid, it has that similar climb to 10kHz.
That's amazing vocal rendition
Horn ribbons have a bright future in hd audio
And alot of advamtages
Jeremy Whittler Yes you may want to check out my IG page where I’ve been busy with the concept. instagram.com/p/B2z_QAqpHJd/?igshid=qcm2kn8dbwcd
sounds like he's singing through cupped hands
McGurk effect may be in play there. I wonder if the horn wasn’t visible you would think the same. I didn’t hear the famous cupped hands effect that still lingers in our vocabulary after technology has since eliminated it. It sounded real and natural ( as can be through my headphones)
Love this!!! Great work!
Fun watch good job!
John Kalinowski Thanks!
Have you ever considered horn loading a magnepan like mgm-w made to hang on wall or even the mini satellite woofer section and would this be possible I think you are on the right track keep up the work thanks Todd
Sounds freaking amazing man. Love it
Doug G Thanks, a more recent design is the E-250 double planar. josephcrowe.com/products/e-250-front-horn-3d-cad-files-drawings
This is so cool. Did you ever solve the that dip at 450Hz (and 950Hz)? How do they sound, any horn coloration (honk)?
Hi Joseph, which driver do you recommend for a wooden horn with almost 50 cm radius please? thanks a lot
That’s not much to go on. System integration factors in many attributes.
Please quick question, I want to mount a 6.5 driver in a ported box tuned to 50hz and then add a tractrix horn in front of the 6.5 driver. Was wondering if you had any idea what might be of such a design
Jeremiah Thompson A Horn will provide 8-9 dB increase in sensitivity. A horn will provide this boost for 2.5 - 3 octaves. So you have to factor that in when considering a front horn.
I’ve seen it done where the a rear loaded horn is combined with a front horn. Some of the old Lowther cabinets did this. The Tannoy Westminster is another example.
Unity horn
Or the new double motor coaxial horn drivers
Some are even neodium I think
Lovely experiment there bru! Be nice to see the distortion plot for the horn though it's not really fair until you correct the throat and flare discontinuities obviously lol xx
Thank you! Yes the CD horn is not ideal for hifi however it does some things very well.
The E-250 double planar front horn is the natural evolution from this design revision. From there I’ve developed the Nighthawk front horn. Distortion on the planar can be read on some of my blog posts, but generally it is very low at around 0.22%.
Where are the distortion graphs ect. for the loaded horn? Also would a bigger rear cavity remove the spike at the low end?
Dodgy Brothers Engineering I forgot to provide this. I will put it up somehow. Good observation on the chamber volume. I could remove the rear cover to see if that changes anything.
@Joseph Crowe's DIY Speaker Building
have you tried to horn-load the Neo in a dipole configuration ? It would be interesting to see how much just the horn contributes to linearize the response (that's the gain in the Neo natural lower range) and how much the horn+seal one does (the configuration you tested).
ps: have you ever tested the Neo 10 ?
I haven’t measured the response without the rear chamber. I only listened and subjectively sounded very poor.
I haven’t tried the neo10. I’m currently trying the Beyma TPL-150.
Please do a shallow horn-loaded 3” fullrange cone driver.
Shallow Horn No.1928 with Fostex FF85WK
th-cam.com/video/GDaG4QWMhFU/w-d-xo.html
Interesting work! Did you ever do off-axis vertical measurements?
Hi first of all thank you sincerely for disclosing all your excellent and very valuable work. You say "I discover that horn loading significantly flattens the frequency response from 180Hz to 10kHz! "
Great indeed ! however i think i have missed the part regarding the distortion. Did you run any distortion test on the horn loaded driver ? often i hear about horn introducing some kind of distortion that makes the sound unnatural ? actually some people say that designing and making a good sounding horn is an art. Shape and material being very critical
Thanks dude nice one, i am not at all into horns but do make allot of planar tweeters (also on my youtube channel) and i never tried a horn for it. so this is a really nice video for me. the gain is insane by the way. weird to see the rising response return of axis. i think it might be canceled out on axis. so its there just some weird phase issues. just my guess :)
I might try a thing or 2 like this, not sure where to start with the horn building... but i guess i could self teach with some browsing... or maybe allot of browsing :)
By the way did you need any thiele small parameters to model this horn ? since most planars dont come with any.
joppe peelen thanks for your comments. Hornresp is very accurate however it doesn’t allow you to load the RMA and ZMA files to see the final response. To complicate matters I don’t have the T&S on the NEO8. So I’m left making many assumptions for simulation. That is why I did the experiment because currently there is no way to simulate accurately.
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding aha ok the lack of TS from planars in general kept me back from using hornres. but i see you have the same problem :) and did go the trial and error method :) well i can try getting ts from mine. Actually adding a known weight of tape to it and do the TS measurement in rew.... hmm i am gone do that this week.
problem might be that it the foils allow it only one time :) so :) haha hopefully nothing goes wrong
I could try myself using a known volume within DATS speaker tester software. That would be better than added mass since you’ll physically deflect the diaphragm due to point loading your added mass. T&S requires a distinct impedance spike at FS too. I’m not sure if there is one on the impedance curve but I’ll soon find out!
I've posted the Spectrogram and Distortion plots for all three tests on my instagram profile @joseph_crowe_diy I forgot to include those results in the video for comparison.
I’d be tempted to try a smaller horn without the sub 500hz boost, which is where the distortion rises. That may fix the 11khz peak as well.
Would this work with a Neo 10?
Yes it would. I’ve been able to get 180Hz low frequency cutoff with the NEO10 in an exponential horn.
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding How difficult is it to adapt the Neo8 Summer Rain plan to accommodate a Neo10?
I should custom design it for you.
Email me at Joseph_crowe@josephcrowe.com
Great video, many thanks!! Any chance of giving us some schematics for the horns?
A AL Hi, I’ve since made the plans available on my website after getting many requests.
Click on this link....
josephcrowe.com/collections/speaker-plans/products/summer-rain-front-horn-drawing-package-1
Also, the flat pack is available for a pair of horns. I’m shipping into late June though...
I’m waiting for my new CNC router to arrive in a week or so.
josephcrowe.com/collections/frontpage/products/flat-pack-for-summer-rain
@@JosephCrowesDIYSpeakerBuilding I apologize, I just found the other video with the links and I was coming back to delete the question, but you were faster than me!! :) This is great, many thanks again!!
You can check me out on Instagram where I share most of my latest projects Joseph_crowe_diy .