Sounds like RF issues. Seems like something in the signal's shielding is allowing radio frequency to enter the system. I'm thinking somewhere in the cables been kinked and now it has become an antenna.
@@AntonBrowne absolutely. It might not be the cables though but definitely sounds like RF interference. You can here an unaudible voice in the interference.
Of course, this is a problem of Bose, not microphones) it is a construction of a conditional linear array in the form of a column, where there are no separate HF drivers, and HF are trying to squeeze out of the MF speaker. In addition, these Bose systems have a horizontal coverage angle of 180 degrees.
I know this is an older video now but thought I’d comment in case you are still dealing with this and a possible solution could still help. To my ears, this sounds like regular old high-frequency feedback. It is incredibly piercing and I cannot even listen to it. I have to shut my speakers off when it plays. Typically, RF interference has a bit of a repeating pattern to it and doesn’t shriek like feedback. It is pretty easy to find samples of what that type of interference sounds like and it is rather different from what is happening here. As for the cause of this, I would surmise it is a combination of the very wide dispersion of the Bose systems and the high sensitivity and wide frequency response of the microphones you are using. If I recall correctly, the L1 systems have around 180 degrees of horizontal dispersion and the 802s have a dispersion of 120 degrees. Many more conventional 2 way horn-loaded point-source boxes have horizontal dispersion more along the lines of 75 degrees. That can make it easier to direct sound where you want it and have an easier time using the areas of lower sensitivity of both the microphone and the speakers to your advantage, but you will not get as even and natural of coverage as you would with the Bose approach, so there are always trade-offs and pros and cons to the different systems. As a test, I would try setting up the Bose system completely out in front of the location of the microphone and see if you can get higher volumes without this happening. As for the solution, the best solution to such a circumstance is to have a knowledgeable sound engineer helping to set up your system with optimum speaker and microphone placement, and dialing in EQ and other parameters during the performance to get the best sound and combat any issues. However, especially on a lot of smaller gigs, this is not always possible or practical and you end up needing to setup your gear yourself and leave it to run during the performance. For this circumstance, I’d recommend you keeping an eye on the used market for a Sabine FBX solo, Behringer Shark FBQ100, or DBX GoRack. All three of those are smaller processors with automatic feedback suppression that works pretty decently at notching out that feedback without doing too much destruction to the sound otherwise. Unfortunately, all have been discontinued and to get that functionality on the new market, you will need a larger and more expensive rack mount processor. But, it shouldn’t be too difficult to find one of those three for a reasonable price, and that could help you with using those higher sensitivity and wider bandwidth condenser mics with your live systems.
Thanks for your input, further testing is required. For the moment, I don't use the Earthworks mics with any of the Bose systems which is a shame. What surprises me is that when using the SR314 with the Bose Compact in a posh hotel, the Bose was a fair distance from the mic and being in a posh hotel I started with a very low volume. Some people immediately noticed the sound even though the volume was way below normal feedback onset. What doesn't help is that I can't hear most of it (too high a frequency) so I can't trust myself when setting up, thus I use a dynamic. I will have to test away from a gig with some younger people present!
@@AntonBrowne Ah yes! I was thinking of that. I believe you mentioned something about that in this video as well, and that is very much of interest. Typically a bit of distance and a low volume would be the remedy for feedback, and having this sound appear points to other factors beyond just feedback, but without hearing it to know, I wouldn’t be able to offer any input. I do feel it is a shame that you have been unable to use your Earthworks and Bose systems together and was hoping I could help. If you have a friend or know someone that is a sound engineer that could help you troubleshoot, it might be helpful because they might be able to help you solve it for certain. This is the kind of thing I have enjoyed successfully troubleshooting in the past, and always learn something from working on. Unfortunately I am quite far away so I would be unable to come and work on it. But it would be nice for you to be able to use your Earthworks and Neumann mics live.
@@AntonBrowne Oh! One other thing. I saw you mention that you use a TC Helicon Perform V? I just looked that up and it looks like it has a feedback suppressor built in? Have you ever tried that? I have never used one of those so I am not sure if the processing is as good or effective as the algorithms that DBX and Sabine use, but since you already own that device, it might be worth a try to experiment with utilizing that function.
Hi Anton, I clearly hear a massive, nasty and ear-piercing cheep noise around ca. 10 - 12kHz with both the Earthworks and the KMS105, which builds up quickly the typical feedback way, once a certain gain level is reached. So to my ears, this IS feedback, probably caused by a combination of a supercardio (sensitive at the rear, too), wide frequency range-capable condenser mic, and the typical bose way of bending frequency response to compensate for the lack of tweeters.
Ive had nothing but static and cracking noise with the last Ethos black that i let guitar Center have! The one before it, popped and the like in a live private gig. Finished that gig with a dynamic!!! Not sure what Earthworks are doing. A person at Guitar Center flat out acknowledged how noisy earthworks mics can be. Pleasw please try for us the Ehrlund EHR-H and the Oktava MK-207.
Sounds like RF. Less a statement about cable quality and more about a congested RF environment! An easy way to check is with Ferrite chokes placed at either end of cable run, at mic and input to system. Clamp-on cores are available, which attach without wrapping the wire: this type of ferrite core is usually designed so that the wire passes only once through it. It may not tell you who the culprit is but I bet it will solve the problem on the cheap.
Interesting investigation. Hopefully Bose will contact you to give us all an explanation. Side note: I've listened through your Mr. Baloney playlist many times. Whenever you feel the urge to get into some new baloney, please know that there are folks out here that would love to hear about it.
Hi Anton, it definitely has to do with the Bose system. This is a processing problem; Bose uses a lot of processing to get the best out of not too great speakers, this to be able to get the form factor for the speakers they want to. What you hear is a different form of feedback, not acoustically generated but electronically generated; the processing end up going into a processing loop. This is obviously not caused by then sound coming back from the speaker, but internally by the processing electronics. I've seen it before with Bose systems when a signal that has content above 30 to 40 KHz. So when using a mic that has no problem generating these high frequencies combined with mixing equipment that will let those frequencies through, you are in a situation that this electronic feedback can be generated. You happened to try some microphones that are capable of capturing these frequencies in combination with a Bose system. These frequencies are most likely artifacts from the Bose processing unit outside the human hearing spectrum, but when picked up by the mic it can start the process. So it's a combination of mics with a very wide frequency response and artifacts generated by the Bose processing.
That's a bit of a catch 22; to reduce the high frequency content you will need to add a low pass filter preferably as high as possible as not to influence the audible content, so let say at 20kHz. When using a first order filter it will only reduce the 40 kHz by approximately 8 dB, and the 30 kHz by 5 dB, but also 20 kHz by 3 dB and 10 kHz still by 0.5 dB; when using a higher order filter it will reduce the problem frequency range more drastically, but it will also introduce more noticeable phase shifting artifacts. For instance with a 4th order filter the total phase shift will end up going to 360 degrees; at the high pass frequency it will already be 180 degrees. The Butterworth 4th order filter has the least amount of ripple and would be the best. The filtering at the different frequencies would be; - 24 dB @ 40 kHz; - 14 dB @ 30 kHz; - 3 dB @ 20 kHz and 0.05 dB @ 10 kHz. Unfortunately only trial an error will determine if this will solve the problem or potentially introduce different problems. The phase shifting might introduce new problems in the Bose processing.
yeah its extremely noticable, its so high pitched piercing, its a weird problem, idk if its feedback though, that usually isnt how it works, it seems more like some sort of electrical problem. the 117 and neumann most def had it later on as well, the sennheiser just had feedback. I would decouple a bunch of things, just eleminate variable, id be curious to know if it came from the speaker, the high pitched sound, or just the microphone causing it in combination.
Wow! That's alarming. No wonder people were reacting the way they did. I'm going to get my hearing checked because I can't hear the high stuff. It's very odd that it seems to happen on the old gear too. I'm wondering if it's something to do with the extreme treble boosting Bose use in order to get treble without using tweeters or a horn.
Hello Anton, I use the SR40 and C636 every week with the Bose L1 Pro 8, L1 Model 2 or the old 802 and I have never had any problems, in fact, as soon as I bought the SR 40 at your suggestion and connected it to the Bose I had the best voice sound ever, and I thank you for that! I'll share your problem with the people at Bose Portugal to see if they have any ideas about this! Best, Ricardo Pereira
@@AntonBrowne As soon as the festivities are over I will go to Bose to exchange opinions about your problem. I would like to take this opportunity to ask you for your opinion, as I am used to singing with the Sr40, if I buy the new Sr117 will I notice a lot of difference or loss of definition? My question is due to the big price difference… Thanks
That is most unfortunate. Could be interactions between the audio in/outs and electromagnetic leakage/currents from the usb-drives. Try ferrite cores on your cables, maybe they help.
Not the microphones, this is electrical interference being introduced by the Bose or parts in-between (cable, mixer, adapter). I would suspect the EW mics but the Neumann issue makes that doubtful. Also odd that Bose would have an incompatibility across that many models persist undocumented for so long. I would try introducing a DI box in the chain, maybe. Also wonder if the phantom being supplied by the Bose isn't the issue.
Thanks. I use a TC Helicon Perform V for effects and phantom - so kind of a DI. In the video I used a dedicated phanton supply. The fact that it happens across all combinations, with different quality cables, is perplexing. I wonder whether Bose applying aggresive high-frequency EQ might have something to do with it? This would explain why it happens on my old analougue 802 system as well.
Not sure about the Neumann but the Earthworks mics have a wider than usual dynamic range. I wonder if they are picking up something higher up from the Bose system that the other mics are not picking up and you are getting a feedback resonance. An FFT phone app might be able to visualize it. A filter/EQ cut off might be able to get rid of it if so.
The noise seems to be more Radio Frequency pick up rather than feedback. This could be an break down of continuity between the microphone and preamps in the equipement. The is a crackle just as the noise starts that suggests it could be poor contact problem possibly in the XLR connection. I note your reply to a similar point from @infinagon that you have used several different cables. and the problem continues. I suggest you should double check the quality of the XLR's connection to the microphones,
I will try a desk but don't hold out much hope, as I usually use the TC Helicon Perform V before going into the Bose (and was initially blaming that, but no). For the test I used a stand-alone phantom supply (the L1 Compact doesn't have phantom) but still the problem.
You could try connecting pin 1 of the xlr to the tag on the shell of the connector ( at both ends of the cable ). This could reduce RF interference and is relatively straightforward.
Sounds like RF issues. Seems like something in the signal's shielding is allowing radio frequency to enter the system. I'm thinking somewhere in the cables been kinked and now it has become an antenna.
Thanks. It happens with various well cared for high quality cables, but I will keep that in mind.
@@AntonBrowne absolutely. It might not be the cables though but definitely sounds like RF interference. You can here an unaudible voice in the interference.
Of course, this is a problem of Bose, not microphones) it is a construction of a conditional linear array in the form of a column, where there are no separate HF drivers, and HF are trying to squeeze out of the MF speaker. In addition, these Bose systems have a horizontal coverage angle of 180 degrees.
I know this is an older video now but thought I’d comment in case you are still dealing with this and a possible solution could still help. To my ears, this sounds like regular old high-frequency feedback. It is incredibly piercing and I cannot even listen to it. I have to shut my speakers off when it plays. Typically, RF interference has a bit of a repeating pattern to it and doesn’t shriek like feedback. It is pretty easy to find samples of what that type of interference sounds like and it is rather different from what is happening here.
As for the cause of this, I would surmise it is a combination of the very wide dispersion of the Bose systems and the high sensitivity and wide frequency response of the microphones you are using. If I recall correctly, the L1 systems have around 180 degrees of horizontal dispersion and the 802s have a dispersion of 120 degrees. Many more conventional 2 way horn-loaded point-source boxes have horizontal dispersion more along the lines of 75 degrees. That can make it easier to direct sound where you want it and have an easier time using the areas of lower sensitivity of both the microphone and the speakers to your advantage, but you will not get as even and natural of coverage as you would with the Bose approach, so there are always trade-offs and pros and cons to the different systems.
As a test, I would try setting up the Bose system completely out in front of the location of the microphone and see if you can get higher volumes without this happening. As for the solution, the best solution to such a circumstance is to have a knowledgeable sound engineer helping to set up your system with optimum speaker and microphone placement, and dialing in EQ and other parameters during the performance to get the best sound and combat any issues. However, especially on a lot of smaller gigs, this is not always possible or practical and you end up needing to setup your gear yourself and leave it to run during the performance. For this circumstance, I’d recommend you keeping an eye on the used market for a Sabine FBX solo, Behringer Shark FBQ100, or DBX GoRack. All three of those are smaller processors with automatic feedback suppression that works pretty decently at notching out that feedback without doing too much destruction to the sound otherwise. Unfortunately, all have been discontinued and to get that functionality on the new market, you will need a larger and more expensive rack mount processor. But, it shouldn’t be too difficult to find one of those three for a reasonable price, and that could help you with using those higher sensitivity and wider bandwidth condenser mics with your live systems.
Thanks for your input, further testing is required. For the moment, I don't use the Earthworks mics with any of the Bose systems which is a shame. What surprises me is that when using the SR314 with the Bose Compact in a posh hotel, the Bose was a fair distance from the mic and being in a posh hotel I started with a very low volume. Some people immediately noticed the sound even though the volume was way below normal feedback onset. What doesn't help is that I can't hear most of it (too high a frequency) so I can't trust myself when setting up, thus I use a dynamic. I will have to test away from a gig with some younger people present!
@@AntonBrowne Ah yes! I was thinking of that. I believe you mentioned something about that in this video as well, and that is very much of interest. Typically a bit of distance and a low volume would be the remedy for feedback, and having this sound appear points to other factors beyond just feedback, but without hearing it to know, I wouldn’t be able to offer any input. I do feel it is a shame that you have been unable to use your Earthworks and Bose systems together and was hoping I could help. If you have a friend or know someone that is a sound engineer that could help you troubleshoot, it might be helpful because they might be able to help you solve it for certain. This is the kind of thing I have enjoyed successfully troubleshooting in the past, and always learn something from working on. Unfortunately I am quite far away so I would be unable to come and work on it.
But it would be nice for you to be able to use your Earthworks and Neumann mics live.
@@AntonBrowne Oh! One other thing. I saw you mention that you use a TC Helicon Perform V? I just looked that up and it looks like it has a feedback suppressor built in? Have you ever tried that? I have never used one of those so I am not sure if the processing is as good or effective as the algorithms that DBX and Sabine use, but since you already own that device, it might be worth a try to experiment with utilizing that function.
Hi Anton, I clearly hear a massive, nasty and ear-piercing cheep noise around ca. 10 - 12kHz with both the Earthworks and the KMS105, which builds up quickly the typical feedback way, once a certain gain level is reached. So to my ears, this IS feedback, probably caused by a combination of a supercardio (sensitive at the rear, too), wide frequency range-capable condenser mic, and the typical bose way of bending frequency response to compensate for the lack of tweeters.
Ive had nothing but static and cracking noise with the last Ethos black that i let guitar Center have! The one before it, popped and the like in a live private gig. Finished that gig with a dynamic!!! Not sure what Earthworks are doing. A person at Guitar Center flat out acknowledged how noisy earthworks mics can be.
Pleasw please try for us the Ehrlund EHR-H and the Oktava MK-207.
Dear Anton! Please give us a review of the Ehrlund EHR-H, and the Oktava MK-207. Please please!!! The
Uh, that sounded like a dental drill...
High frequency feedback, this could be solved easily with a fully parametric EQ
Sounds like RF. Less a statement about cable quality and more about a congested RF environment!
An easy way to check is with Ferrite chokes placed at either end of cable run, at mic and input to system. Clamp-on cores are available, which attach without wrapping the wire: this type of ferrite core is usually designed so that the wire passes only once through it. It may not tell you who the culprit is but I bet it will solve the problem on the cheap.
Thanks. Inexpensive enough, I will try.
Interesting investigation. Hopefully Bose will contact you to give us all an explanation.
Side note: I've listened through your Mr. Baloney playlist many times. Whenever you feel the urge to get into some new baloney, please know that there are folks out here that would love to hear about it.
Thanks for reminding me, I have a few doses of Baloney loosely scripted, so...
@@AntonBrowne Please let me know!😎
Hi Anton, it definitely has to do with the Bose system. This is a processing problem; Bose uses a lot of processing to get the best out of not too great speakers, this to be able to get the form factor for the speakers they want to.
What you hear is a different form of feedback, not acoustically generated but electronically generated; the processing end up going into a processing loop. This is obviously not caused by then sound coming back from the speaker, but internally by the processing electronics.
I've seen it before with Bose systems when a signal that has content above 30 to 40 KHz. So when using a mic that has no problem generating these high frequencies combined with mixing equipment that will let those frequencies through, you are in a situation that this electronic feedback can be generated.
You happened to try some microphones that are capable of capturing these frequencies in combination with a Bose system.
These frequencies are most likely artifacts from the Bose processing unit outside the human hearing spectrum, but when picked up by the mic it can start the process.
So it's a combination of mics with a very wide frequency response and artifacts generated by the Bose processing.
Thanks for the explanation... is there any cure?
That's a bit of a catch 22; to reduce the high frequency content you will need to add a low pass filter preferably as high as possible as not to influence the audible content, so let say at 20kHz.
When using a first order filter it will only reduce the 40 kHz by approximately 8 dB, and the 30 kHz by 5 dB, but also 20 kHz by 3 dB and 10 kHz still by 0.5 dB; when using a higher order filter it will reduce the problem frequency range more drastically, but it will also introduce more noticeable phase shifting artifacts.
For instance with a 4th order filter the total phase shift will end up going to 360 degrees; at the high pass frequency it will already be 180 degrees. The Butterworth 4th order filter has the least amount of ripple and would be the best. The filtering at the different frequencies would be; - 24 dB @ 40 kHz; - 14 dB @ 30 kHz; - 3 dB @ 20 kHz and 0.05 dB @ 10 kHz.
Unfortunately only trial an error will determine if this will solve the problem or potentially introduce different problems. The phase shifting might introduce new problems in the Bose processing.
yeah its extremely noticable, its so high pitched piercing, its a weird problem, idk if its feedback though, that usually isnt how it works, it seems more like some sort of electrical problem. the 117 and neumann most def had it later on as well, the sennheiser just had feedback.
I would decouple a bunch of things, just eleminate variable, id be curious to know if it came from the speaker, the high pitched sound, or just the microphone causing it in combination.
Wow! That's alarming. No wonder people were reacting the way they did. I'm going to get my hearing checked because I can't hear the high stuff. It's very odd that it seems to happen on the old gear too. I'm wondering if it's something to do with the extreme treble boosting Bose use in order to get treble without using tweeters or a horn.
Hello Anton, I use the SR40 and C636 every week with the Bose L1 Pro 8, L1 Model 2 or the old 802 and I have never had any problems, in fact, as soon as I bought the SR 40 at your suggestion and connected it to the Bose I had the best voice sound ever, and I thank you for that! I'll share your problem with the people at Bose Portugal to see if they have any ideas about this! Best, Ricardo Pereira
Thanks Ricardo, I'm still at a loss and no word from Bose here.
@@AntonBrowne As soon as the festivities are over I will go to Bose to exchange opinions about your problem.
I would like to take this opportunity to ask you for your opinion, as I am used to singing with the Sr40, if I buy the new Sr117 will I notice a lot of difference or loss of definition? My question is due to the big price difference…
Thanks
That is most unfortunate. Could be interactions between the audio in/outs and electromagnetic leakage/currents from the usb-drives. Try ferrite cores on your cables, maybe they help.
Not the microphones, this is electrical interference being introduced by the Bose or parts in-between (cable, mixer, adapter). I would suspect the EW mics but the Neumann issue makes that doubtful. Also odd that Bose would have an incompatibility across that many models persist undocumented for so long. I would try introducing a DI box in the chain, maybe. Also wonder if the phantom being supplied by the Bose isn't the issue.
Thanks. I use a TC Helicon Perform V for effects and phantom - so kind of a DI. In the video I used a dedicated phanton supply. The fact that it happens across all combinations, with different quality cables, is perplexing. I wonder whether Bose applying aggresive high-frequency EQ might have something to do with it? This would explain why it happens on my old analougue 802 system as well.
Do you use the same separate phantom power box each time on each system?
Not sure about the Neumann but the Earthworks mics have a wider than usual dynamic range. I wonder if they are picking up something higher up from the Bose system that the other mics are not picking up and you are getting a feedback resonance. An FFT phone app might be able to visualize it. A filter/EQ cut off might be able to get rid of it if so.
The noise seems to be more Radio Frequency pick up rather than feedback. This could be an break down of continuity between the microphone and preamps in the equipement. The is a crackle just as the noise starts that suggests it could be poor contact problem possibly in the XLR connection. I note your reply to a similar point from @infinagon that you have used several different cables. and the problem continues. I suggest you should double check the quality of the XLR's connection to the microphones,
Do you get the noise if you use the desk between the earthworks and the Bose?
I will try a desk but don't hold out much hope, as I usually use the TC Helicon Perform V before going into the Bose (and was initially blaming that, but no). For the test I used a stand-alone phantom supply (the L1 Compact doesn't have phantom) but still the problem.
You could try connecting pin 1 of the xlr to the tag on the shell of the connector ( at both ends of the cable ). This could reduce RF interference and is relatively straightforward.
cable or humidity ?