I'm constantly talking to people that were taught one way and take that instruction as gospel. I always appreciate it when people encourage _thinking_ about systems instead of just following dogma. A+ would hire you.
The bottom line: Think about your situation and act appropriately. The key is to know your options and what your plan is. These videos are invaluable for building knowledge! Thanks for that! And - a plug for Ryan. I was fortunate to have been taught just about everything I know from Ryan, lead climbing through outdoor multi-pitch. Ryan is obviously super knowledgeable and a great teacher! A day with Ryan is invaluable for anyone wanting to up their game in the technical nuances of climbing systems! Thanks Ryan!
Climbing in Frankenjura, Germany, where 2 quickdraws, opposite and opposed on a single glue-in bolt are deemed a good enough sport anchor, I find it pretty fascinating how heated some of these discussions can get. Some people are fine taking huge whippers on a single draw, where you'd most likely deck if the draw came undone or the bolt failed, but then freak out if the anchor isn't quadruply redundant.
Nearly every sport anchor I build is two opposing quick draws. It’s also the type I see other parties using 95+% of the time. Mostly climb in the Red River Gorge
Good discussion. A lot goes on personal practice and professional practice here in Quebec Canada. 4 lockers is how we have to go professionally but I agree good thinking / judgement is the most important. We want climbers to be able to think / make risk assessments in situations.
Understanding risks is the key to mitigating those risks. I recently lead a pitch with the crux protected by a nut very close to the ground. Instead of a QD I threw a locking carabiner on there to shorten the fall distance and to guarantee it didn’t unclip.
Yep, that is a great example of employing a locker where you have a very critical piece of protection. Good thinking and line of reasoning for adding a single locker on that piece!
I have been using four locking carabiners for top rope for decades, peace of mind and wearability. I have three wire gates that students have bent. they no longer close.
Where I climb in Europe, one usually gets 2 bolts connected by a chain and one ring/quick link to lower. In these cases, I clip in a Edelrid bulletproof d-locker to toprope where the spine is at the rock and one quickdraw, which isn't weighted, to back it up. I think that this is plenty secure.
@@dhat1607 This can help you in some instances. There are many routes in Frankenjura where the last bolt is 2-3m below the top anchor. Frankenjura offers great rock but it is not an example of beginner friendly and risk minimizing bolting procedures.
Yeah very good talking point. I like to have the 2 small* lockers for the bolt, for multi pitch, bc it just means I have more lockers in case. Usually I have 4-6, + the 2 extra. But I will have to think ahead about it to use it
I think discussions like this are becoming more important because many new climbers might climb for years without ever being forced to deal with an unconventional anchor. My region was primarily a trad region when I started climbing. Since then we have developed a lot of sport climbing. Trends have shifted a lot in 20 years, and I feel like the requirements of the two styles has led to some of the shifts I have seen locally. It is good that bolted anchors are becoming the norm, but I have seen some questionable anchors in locations that require anything that isn't a quad or two draws. Too many climbers are learning a single system instead of learning how to think an anchor through. I get a lot many blank looks when I mention SERENE or ERNEST.
I always carry my quad prerigged with the lockers installed on it on my harness and those lockers just live there for the day. The weight is negligible to me for the peace of mind
To be honest I am not sure I agree with the 2 non lockers = 1 locker, in my opinion they are worth more. I personally would trust 2 non lockers more than a single locker. I also feel fine with using 2 non lockers as the rope point in an anchor. I am very curious now if there are any known accidents or near misses caused by using non lockers on the hangers.
I once looked around to see if there are any known failures of rigging two opposed (nonlocking) quickdraws as a sport anchor since that's super common around me and as near as I can tell the answer is no. I also would be comfortable with two non-lockers at the rope point if we're just talking a few actual climbers taking turns on a route. If it's a group of non-climbers going all day in some sort of intro session I'd use two lockers and a locker on one of the bolts because I don't trust that basically anything I expect to happen is going to happen and if I'm setting up a route to use all day the weight of a couple lockers almost certainly doesn't matter.
Ngl when I was starting I used lockers for all four. I know it’s overkill but it did make me feel better lol ultimately that’s all that matters to me. Do what makes you feel good.
I assembled two locking quickdraws of different lengths. The way I usually set top rope, I make anchor with one regular quickdraw and one locking quickdraw (opposing and opposed obviously). I select their length in a way that it's more or less equalized. If You think it's bad practice, let me know. Also those locking quickdraws don't have only one use - they make excellent rappel extension. And when it turns out I took not enough quickdraws, I can use those as, you know, "emergency" regular quickdraws when needed. So when I clip something to my harness, I prefer it to be multi use
the only possible problem or downside to this practice vs a quad anchor top rope setup is load equalization between your two bolts if you're not pulling directly down between the two bolts.
It’s totally fine to use a locker-draw and a normal draw as a top rope anchor. And you’re right that a locker draw has a lot of uses, especially for a rappel tether!
in a multipitch setting with bolted anchors, if you’re belaying from above and you decide to use nonlockers to clip your anchor into the bolts, if one of the nonlockers begin to open in the middle of belaying and your climber is fully weighting the rope/anchor, is there a safe way to correct that while still maintaining the belay? also can you make a talking point video about using sport quickdraws with all nonlockers to use as a top tope anchor at a sport crag?
I use a locker on each bolt/piece. The argument I follow is that i build my anchors to be redundant based on the assumption that one of the points will fail (otherwise redundancy wouldn't be necesary). If a point fails, the other is now a critical point which should be secured with a locker. Of course, and specially on bolts, the chance that an anchor point fails is pretty close to zero, but still I operate on that assumption. If I have a trad 3+ pt anchor, then I can justify using non-lockers at each piece, as I still have two nonlockers on the other two points, so I'd need multiple failures to occur for this to be a problem. Another argument I've heard is that when things do fail, there is often some impact and things moving arround in weird and unexpected ways, and a locking carabiner adds a bit more security that that remaining point wont open on you. Personally for me, even in 'fast and light' alpine situations, I don't mind carrying the extra weight of a few more (lightweight, small) lockers to use at anchors. The extra weight and time lost by using lockers over non lockers is for me negligible and worth the extra peace of mind. As you mentioned, I carry two extra lockers, usually as part of an 'emergency' kit to use if I need them for other reasons. Cheers for the nice video!
I cant think of a single reason to be trying to convince people to use fewer lockers. Not sure what we are doing here exactly. We have lightweight cheap lockers, why would we not? The only reason not to have them on draws is that its hard to use the mechanism one handed while climbing. Otherwise, that too would eliminate unclip risk.
Thanks for the comment, just to be clear I'm not trying to convince people to use less or more lockers in this video. My only real goal was to talk about the thought processes in this video as to how I choose to use my materials in different situations, and to start allowing people to begin to think about how they employ materials or techniques while out climbing. I also say in the video a few times it doesn't matter if you want to use lockers on all points in your anchor and provide arguments for why it would be a good idea to use lockers at all points. A number of my talking point videos are to help "myth bust" some misconceptions in the climbing community, but this one is really just to help people with a line of reasoning to help with different situations when out climbing.
Educational, but longwinded. TLDR: locking carabiners used when there's a single point of failure and can't monitor them actively. (imo, better to err towards eliminating the 'monitoring' factor. No reason to create that as another human point of failure. Take your eye of the positioning of an unlocking carabiner for a few minutes and potentially die? Yea, I'll take the extra second for the locking personally.)
I'm constantly talking to people that were taught one way and take that instruction as gospel. I always appreciate it when people encourage _thinking_ about systems instead of just following dogma. A+ would hire you.
The bottom line: Think about your situation and act appropriately. The key is to know your options and what your plan is. These videos are invaluable for building knowledge! Thanks for that!
And - a plug for Ryan.
I was fortunate to have been taught just about everything I know from Ryan, lead climbing through outdoor multi-pitch. Ryan is obviously super knowledgeable and a great teacher! A day with Ryan is invaluable for anyone wanting to up their game in the technical nuances of climbing systems!
Thanks Ryan!
Thanks for the kind words Ed, hope you and the rest of the Murray clan are doing well! Let me know if you’re around the Tahoe area anytime soon!
Climbing in Frankenjura, Germany, where 2 quickdraws, opposite and opposed on a single glue-in bolt are deemed a good enough sport anchor, I find it pretty fascinating how heated some of these discussions can get.
Some people are fine taking huge whippers on a single draw, where you'd most likely deck if the draw came undone or the bolt failed, but then freak out if the anchor isn't quadruply redundant.
Nearly every sport anchor I build is two opposing quick draws. It’s also the type I see other parties using 95+% of the time.
Mostly climb in the Red River Gorge
This. Which is actually the reason I sometimes clip two draws into one bolt while leading. Especially if I could fall on both sides of it.
Good discussion. A lot goes on personal practice and professional practice here in Quebec Canada. 4 lockers is how we have to go professionally but I agree good thinking / judgement is the most important. We want climbers to be able to think / make risk assessments in situations.
Understanding risks is the key to mitigating those risks. I recently lead a pitch with the crux protected by a nut very close to the ground. Instead of a QD I threw a locking carabiner on there to shorten the fall distance and to guarantee it didn’t unclip.
Yep, that is a great example of employing a locker where you have a very critical piece of protection. Good thinking and line of reasoning for adding a single locker on that piece!
I have been using four locking carabiners for top rope for decades, peace of mind and wearability. I have three wire gates that students have bent. they no longer close.
Where I climb in Europe, one usually gets 2 bolts connected by a chain and one ring/quick link to lower. In these cases, I clip in a Edelrid bulletproof d-locker to toprope where the spine is at the rock and one quickdraw, which isn't weighted, to back it up. I think that this is plenty secure.
We have thousands of routes here that only have a single bolt at the top.
My instructor at Frankenjura said to leave the top draw in if a single bolt for top roping.
@@dhat1607 This can help you in some instances. There are many routes in Frankenjura where the last bolt is 2-3m below the top anchor. Frankenjura offers great rock but it is not an example of beginner friendly and risk minimizing bolting procedures.
Yeah very good talking point. I like to have the 2 small* lockers for the bolt, for multi pitch, bc it just means I have more lockers in case. Usually I have 4-6, + the 2 extra. But I will have to think ahead about it to use it
I think discussions like this are becoming more important because many new climbers might climb for years without ever being forced to deal with an unconventional anchor. My region was primarily a trad region when I started climbing. Since then we have developed a lot of sport climbing. Trends have shifted a lot in 20 years, and I feel like the requirements of the two styles has led to some of the shifts I have seen locally. It is good that bolted anchors are becoming the norm, but I have seen some questionable anchors in locations that require anything that isn't a quad or two draws. Too many climbers are learning a single system instead of learning how to think an anchor through. I get a lot many blank looks when I mention SERENE or ERNEST.
Lockers all around for peace of mind.
I always carry my quad prerigged with the lockers installed on it on my harness and those lockers just live there for the day. The weight is negligible to me for the peace of mind
To be honest I am not sure I agree with the 2 non lockers = 1 locker, in my opinion they are worth more. I personally would trust 2 non lockers more than a single locker. I also feel fine with using 2 non lockers as the rope point in an anchor. I am very curious now if there are any known accidents or near misses caused by using non lockers on the hangers.
I once looked around to see if there are any known failures of rigging two opposed (nonlocking) quickdraws as a sport anchor since that's super common around me and as near as I can tell the answer is no. I also would be comfortable with two non-lockers at the rope point if we're just talking a few actual climbers taking turns on a route. If it's a group of non-climbers going all day in some sort of intro session I'd use two lockers and a locker on one of the bolts because I don't trust that basically anything I expect to happen is going to happen and if I'm setting up a route to use all day the weight of a couple lockers almost certainly doesn't matter.
Hi Ryan. Thanks for your videos. Is it possible to use a quad anchor on a three piece gear anchor? Can you do a video on this? Thanks!
Ya I made a video about that a while ago here’s the link: th-cam.com/video/zcIutj0f5jw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=TkH1tIH_o70RV7EI
Ngl when I was starting I used lockers for all four. I know it’s overkill but it did make me feel better lol ultimately that’s all that matters to me. Do what makes you feel good.
I assembled two locking quickdraws of different lengths. The way I usually set top rope, I make anchor with one regular quickdraw and one locking quickdraw (opposing and opposed obviously). I select their length in a way that it's more or less equalized. If You think it's bad practice, let me know.
Also those locking quickdraws don't have only one use - they make excellent rappel extension. And when it turns out I took not enough quickdraws, I can use those as, you know, "emergency" regular quickdraws when needed. So when I clip something to my harness, I prefer it to be multi use
the only possible problem or downside to this practice vs a quad anchor top rope setup is load equalization between your two bolts if you're not pulling directly down between the two bolts.
It’s totally fine to use a locker-draw and a normal draw as a top rope anchor. And you’re right that a locker draw has a lot of uses, especially for a rappel tether!
@@ryantilley9063 thanks for the feedback!
in a multipitch setting with bolted anchors, if you’re belaying from above and you decide to use nonlockers to clip your anchor into the bolts, if one of the nonlockers begin to open in the middle of belaying and your climber is fully weighting the rope/anchor, is there a safe way to correct that while still maintaining the belay? also can you make a talking point video about using sport quickdraws with all nonlockers to use as a top tope anchor at a sport crag?
I use a locker on each bolt/piece. The argument I follow is that i build my anchors to be redundant based on the assumption that one of the points will fail (otherwise redundancy wouldn't be necesary). If a point fails, the other is now a critical point which should be secured with a locker. Of course, and specially on bolts, the chance that an anchor point fails is pretty close to zero, but still I operate on that assumption. If I have a trad 3+ pt anchor, then I can justify using non-lockers at each piece, as I still have two nonlockers on the other two points, so I'd need multiple failures to occur for this to be a problem.
Another argument I've heard is that when things do fail, there is often some impact and things moving arround in weird and unexpected ways, and a locking carabiner adds a bit more security that that remaining point wont open on you.
Personally for me, even in 'fast and light' alpine situations, I don't mind carrying the extra weight of a few more (lightweight, small) lockers to use at anchors. The extra weight and time lost by using lockers over non lockers is for me negligible and worth the extra peace of mind. As you mentioned, I carry two extra lockers, usually as part of an 'emergency' kit to use if I need them for other reasons.
Cheers for the nice video!
i think two lockers at the rope is overkill if you have two non-locker at bolts. your system is as bad as its least reliable link
I cant think of a single reason to be trying to convince people to use fewer lockers. Not sure what we are doing here exactly. We have lightweight cheap lockers, why would we not? The only reason not to have them on draws is that its hard to use the mechanism one handed while climbing. Otherwise, that too would eliminate unclip risk.
Thanks for the comment, just to be clear I'm not trying to convince people to use less or more lockers in this video. My only real goal was to talk about the thought processes in this video as to how I choose to use my materials in different situations, and to start allowing people to begin to think about how they employ materials or techniques while out climbing. I also say in the video a few times it doesn't matter if you want to use lockers on all points in your anchor and provide arguments for why it would be a good idea to use lockers at all points.
A number of my talking point videos are to help "myth bust" some misconceptions in the climbing community, but this one is really just to help people with a line of reasoning to help with different situations when out climbing.
Educational, but longwinded. TLDR: locking carabiners used when there's a single point of failure and can't monitor them actively. (imo, better to err towards eliminating the 'monitoring' factor. No reason to create that as another human point of failure. Take your eye of the positioning of an unlocking carabiner for a few minutes and potentially die? Yea, I'll take the extra second for the locking personally.)
Small I beam lockers are so cheap and light I see no reason not to use them