Discovering the Secrets of 11,000 Year Old Carvings at Sayburç
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ค. 2024
- While at Göbekli Tepe last year, we made a pilgrimage to the famous 11,00 year old carvings at Sayburç - here is a report of our adventure.
The media got quite excited in early 2023 about how the little man in the Sayburç carvings was holding himself. We too reported on the discovery - but I hope we managed to emphasise that the significance was that it seems to be the first known example of a narrative scene recorded in a carving.
Little did we know that thanks to support through our Göbekli Tepe to Stonehenge project (see below), we would be in Turkey within the year staring the little fella in the face.
Anyway, here is our overview of the day we visited Sayburç Man and our take on the significance of the carving and the archaeological site as a whole.
00:00 - Introduction & Overview
01:42 - How Sayburç Man became famous
04:02 - Getting to Sayburç
05:12 - Sayburç village
11:58 - First impressions of Sayburç Man and the carvings
17:15 - Do the carvings tell a story?
26:26 - The bull/aurochs and man carving
31:01 - The significance of the carvings
33:18 - This is a ‘special building’ amongst many.
36:00 - Modern re-use of T-Pillars at Sayburç
38:00 - Rounding up and goodbyes
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To be fair. If i were standing between two leopards i'd probably be holding my bits as well. 😱. Another very informative upload. Thank you Gents. 👍
Among Massai and Zulu you're not a man (ie. your bits don't count) until you kill either a lion or leopard.
Hear hear! As would I.
😂😂😂😂😂❤❤❤❤
@@differous01interesting!
Indeed, myself as well, old boy.
Turkey/Anatolia is a treasure house with far more to be discovered.
The whole narrative sort of reminds me of the old breakfast restaurants in the U.S. called "Sambo's" that had a narrative panel around the top of the room of scenes from the story, where the little boy gives the tiger parts of his clothes (including his pants - he's hiding behind a leaf then), and he eventually convinces the tiger to chase its own tail around a tree, going so fast it turns into butter. I know, it doesn't make sense but that's the story.
I was delighted to see the image of you standing near to the little fellow. Now I have visual context. He's smaller than I thought! Thanks for the fantastic report.
I wonder if Dr. Irving Finkel, British Museum, might have some knowledge of a Sumerian, or older, story relating to this narrative panel? He is an amazing human resource!!!
An absolute delight, on top of being a brilliant historian and storyteller!
Yes they should really have him on the program. That would be a good watch for sure.
Sumer isn't' older than these Turkish site. But you are right about the wide spread motif
I adore that man!
Loving all the art! We spent so many years with the idea that people back then were so “wild”, but really they were just people lol 💯💕
I think we are always trying to work it out - what could this be or what could it be used for. However, I think all we can do is to respect that people were there, they created these buildings - how and where they did create them and for what reason, is hard for us to deduce. But how can we know the reason, we see the site through the lens of 2024. People of the past were clever, they were creative and they were innovative..................just like people today. Excellent presentation and thought provoking as usual.
Good Sunday morning from the glorious SF Bay Area. Hold onto what's important! Thanks for another great video.
Thank-you - wonderful stuff.
Curious / significant ..... the figure between the leopards is carved in high relief, while the rest of the visible carving is in low relief .
The turf roofs id say is more to keep the sun from distressing the the wood and branches of the roof than from keeping the water out cos they do that now in Iran wooden beams then a thin plastic sheet then they cover it with soil last for years and years
The man facing the auroch was either very brave, or very afraid. The same goes for the guy holding his bits between two leopards. Another excellent video, guys!
The Armenian Anatolians in this area believed in the Svot. A little man who lived inside their houses in the walls in winter,rwho had to be driven out in winter by the women of the hose to work the fields ensuring a good harvest.
Maybe the belief in the Svot was inspired by finding the carvings on the base of houses built on top of ancient ruins. Interesting that it is to do with good harvests. Wasn't that region where farming wheat began ?
Thank you.
as a lady with a degree in Myth and World Relgions, it makes me smile to see a man holding his bits between two leapords!
Love your relaxed approach to your scholarly work… especially appreciate the giggling
Another great one guys
Thank you so much for this incredible behind the scenes adventure.
THank you!
Good observations by you gentlemen!
Perhaps it’s the eternal theme of a man caught in a tight place ,whether between two leopards, bulls, or wife and mother-in-law. The hero must summon his manly courage to emerge from the threat intact. Very thought provoking.
Lindow man AKA pete march, wore a fox fur arm band
It's all so exciting. Your videos from inside these places were fascinating and important. I've just been looking at excavated Easter Island statues and the similarities between the depiction of their arms is staggering.
Given the astonishing age of some European folk tales, it might be interesting to look at Turkish folk tales from the area around the "Tepes", to see if foxes, leopards etc play a part.
Fascinating. Just been reading about the climate at the time it was occupied and seemed a lot more pleasant with plenty of scope for wild cereals and animals.
Great conversation chaps. Thanks very much.
The bog body they named Louvernius/Fox was named that because he had a wrap of fox fur around his arm.
Proof that since the dawn of time man has been obsessed with his bits. 😂
Gents, please remember there may be first-time viewers seeing your current vid, or even "casual viewers" that watch you on occasion but aren't much acquainted with the theme and you don't want to alienate them - it would be good if, for example, you mentioned that "tell" is a mound or artificial hill (the automated subtitles say "tail") and other things of that archaeo-lingo nature - I don't think it would disturb hardcore fans and it would be somewhat refreshing for most people - please consider the possibility! 🙏
PS not describing the dishes of that great meal was a SIN!
💔
Great Video, Thank you for making.
You could say Sayburc Man is Standing With Stones... in his hand.
Rather than thinking of the carvings being something modest due to them being on a bench, maybe the bench was where someone/several people of status sat, which is why it warranted being decorated? It will have taken someone quite a bit of time and effort to make those carvings, so it could be considered as a relatively expensive undertaking when even basic daily needs and chores were time/labour intensive.
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I truly enjoyed the comparison of the narrative depictions from three different sites! Very thought provoking!!! Many thanks.
Tas Tepler was a grouping of individualized centers of GARDENERS. Not yet agriculturalists, but ‘gatherers’ who understood and took advantage of natural seasonal harvests… To make beer. IF YOU BREW IT THEY WILL COME! Stone vats have been analyzed and determine that in Gobeckly Tepe, BEER was being brewed. So my conclusion is: humans gathered at these sites to celebrate BEER…so there was probably a ‘side-show’ of entertainments and feasting. Turn the party into hunting tales of bravery and courage as drunk men tend to do. GARDENERS.. BREWERS.. count on it!
Well it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to suggest it's a euphemism, seeing that these people were immersed in animal iconography, maybe 'dangling the snake' is what it sounds like. We have many euphemisms today for urinating and other bodily functions, can't see why these people wouldn't think similarly.
30:00 May be the guy is tricking the bull to a trap :)
New subscriber here! I have been binging the channels “praveen Mohan” exploring temple carvings and “mind unveiled” that explores tartaria and underground tunnels and symbols in history. Now just came across this video and so thankful for another new fun interesting truth seeking channel. As an Art History Major, I am so intrigued by every historical art piece!!
Any narrative that is important enough to be depicted graphically on a wall, is probably also important enough to be orally transmitted for many generations as a "folk tale". If the ancient population has essentially remained in that area to the present day - a VERY big "ask" I know - some investigation of local folk tales may reveal some interesting clues to what is seen on the wall.
This story is known. This is the proto Master of Animals, specifically the Leader of the Summer Hunt, the period to hold this position is explicitly shown: 9 years. A sar the period between eclipse lunar and solar eclipse. This is well recorded at GT using snake years. A snake has sufficient ribs to count the days in the year. Nine Snakes (years) are shown terminate at an auroch, again the master of the hunt is implied as it is here. This is shown on another t-pillar also, this shows eight snakes, with two becoming three 8-2+3=9(years)! They also refer to eight (years) as this is when the moon and venus appear next to one another (this is explicitly shown on another t-pillar), an eight year Octaeteris (with five visibility cycles of Venus) . They are screaming 'we have a calendar!' actually a really good one.
The reason cats are used is to do with the number of digits, they have 8 at the back and 10 at the front, 18 - this is referring to the period between solar eclipses (A Saros) and half this is a Sar, they are showing the cat at the side, 9 digits shown on each side. They are using animals to refer to astronomical periods (counts). Snakes are a basic abacus to count the days in a year, cats refer to Saros and Sar. The Minoans articulate this very well and the Dactyls (fingers) their founders hailed from ANatolia! They even use the SAME symbols in Cretan hieroglyphs. It is a long read, but this puts this earlier symbolism in context:
www.quora.com/What-can-we-not-understand-about-Minoans/answer/Nick-Deakin-4
"Minos (leader) was last to leave the arena and went to the caves to consult with Zeus (Sky Father) to bring in new laws every nine years." Minos means nine.
At Catalhoyuk hunters are seen to be tapping migratory herds (it appears to be some right of passage), this evolves into Bull Leaping in the fullness of time and it is most likely the leader is the most talented becomes the leader of the summer hunt (requiring many tribes to drive migratory herds into traps). They are mimicking what they observe in the sky, following natural order. Their deities are: Mother Earth, Daughter Moon, Son - the Sun and his lady Venus. This is specifically shown at Catalhoyuk on a relief carving, there is a stone tablet from GT, it uses signs instead, here is the thing, the MInoans are using the very same signs!
The bulls horns are to trap a celestial body above at a datum event like solstices and equinox. The Son/Sun (the Master of Animals) in this context is the tribes son, the Leader (law-giver). This symbolism is important, they are limiting the leaders time in the role to no more than NINE YEARS. This is known well before this, there is a mamouth tusk from modern-day Ukraine, it is explicitly showing horn type devices trapping the sun at datums, they are marking solstices and equinoxes, even where eclipses occur! 15,000 BCE and this technical diagram is recorded along with repeating astronomical counts (9 and 18 years). At GT they also use scorpions, that have nine appendages. They are not revering these creatures per se, they have the right number that they wish to refer to (symbolically) and reasonably unambiguously (what else has the right count for days in the year (snakes have around 350 ribs), scorpions nine appendage, cats 18 digits.
Thanks guys I enjoyed all the great information and you to explaining it 🤗👍
Another informative and enjoyable talk - thanks guys.
Michael, we are either end of the X11 bus route and should meet up, perhaps on campus or at the Art Centre at least.
I did mention stone age trade routes some time back and I am confident I have enough stuff to show to you.
Tuned out as soon as I realized it was those two smirking, giggling fools.
Has no one ever suggested that looking at the bull's head from the top is reminiscent of the constellation Taurus?
Lol, could the story be that yes indeed, men are turned on by danger. Thanks for the discussion today.
Remember the astrological aspects of those carvings. Jumping the bull, has always been connected to the astrological age of Taurus, and of course the cats, which I assume to be Leo. The man holding his unit, is a social construct, methinks, which can have a thousand interpretations as we go along. The statues and T pillars having arms that go generally into the same region of the privates, might be related in some fashion. Easter Island statues, et al. I study the astrological implications of ancient items, and the bull and cats are my assumptions along that line. I have the same implications of Egyptian symbologies, Mycenea etc.
The burial mentioned at 23 minutes is probably the Majoonsuo burial in Finland. But it's canine fur, not fox. May have been a pet dog, or a wolf pelt.
Hiya guys, this area ís fascinating. What i cant understand is why nobody is seeing that the carvings including the erfa man ( sorry if spelled wrong) and the repeating of the motifs are the equitorial zodiacs that they used, the same groups of stars we use but they used the animals that were most familiar with them. The man holding his bits with the v neck top is the peruvian god that holds two sticks in one hand and one in the other, hes also the north american indian painted in red ocre on a rock face, his body is a big inverted triangle some say a six fingered hand or a duck as a headdress. He is most likely part of the libra constellation, just above aquila and scorpios tail and in the west represents begining of spring but in the east when seen on the eastern horizon just before sunrise probably coincides with the harvest. If a whole circle is found well see a lot of the carvings already seen on the t pillars, also im not a fan of some that will try to date the site like using the sphinx as leo and finding how long ago it was looking at itself,, it does that every year for a month which possably meant something to their yearly callender without claiming its over 10,000yrs old. The carvings at gobekly tepe and surrounding sifes are a well thought out and clever callender by using the sun,moon and zodiacs that most of the older cultures were using. Great video by the way and as insaid a fascinating site, take care👍😊
Bulls are frightened of snakes, so the figure in front of the bull is trying to keep the huge a and dangerous bull away shaking a dead snake
I still think the little guy is marking his territory. Edit: Random thought. Renaissance paintings of Jesus on the cross often show blood trickling down toward his loincloth. Reportedly this was done to signify that Jesus was not only the son of God but a human as well - thus the blood leading the eye toward the reproductive organs. Therefore IMO, I think the holding of the penis could be something literal as well as metaphorical
When males especially young boys go into a blind panic they sometimes grab their penises like when fighting with other young boys and some boys get really scared when some other boys come to fight and have never been in that situation. Ive witnessed quite a few times as a child when other kids have got really scared but also my friend years ago when I was older pulled up fast in his car and jumped out and shouted and scared his nephew half to death, and his nephew didnt know who it was at first it was just blind panic and he also grabbed his penis in that moment of confusion and pure panic poor kid. But me and my friend specifically said something about it and said its a strange thing when kids or even sometimes grown men when they are sh*t scared they grab their penises. In the carving he is surrounded by lions/leopards and it kind of reminds me of that part of male nature, maybe some boys when confronted in this situation stand their with their penises in their hands waiting to die and other boys fight back and its the boys who fight back get chosen as warriors/leaders, if they are worthy, who knows maybe...
@@dreddykrugernew Yes, I've seen boys doing that as well. 👍 I thought of territory marking due to Never Cry Wolf ... but I've done it myself when stray dogs and cats were making there way into the yard.
Yes, absolutely there's a story there and we'll never know what it was. But can't help wondering if it was an ancient running joke--or PSA--'Remember to watch for leopards while having a pee'. And the gent just past him is, 'Don't try to hunt an aurochs with a sling'. (or a snake!)
The face of the 'man' has changed drastically since first discovered. Check your other video about this and compare the image from back then to what we see now. Disfigured/ made to look more 'human' now?
Great discussion and episode do you guys do private tours of the area or who do you recommend for that?
my flash was connection was that the leaping image of the fox sure coincides with the shape and appearance of Bally's comet.
Ar ar.
"Talking in Pictures" and expressing proverbs seems to have been a common thing in all the regions most of our bible-texts com from. So when monks or others tried to translate them the lack of insider- and background-knowledge created "rubbish-talk" like using Google-translate for a manual of some technical device. A culture is a region with both a hieroglyphic writing form and a phonetic definition form. Bible-Hebrew even has a line of strict mathematical coding besides that to be able to detect if the decoding process in our understanding creates the "correct picture intended".
The story is clearly, Dont get caught with your pants down. :P
Just a thought..... Well, first I have to admit that I do not watch 100% of the video, I listen to 100% though. Anyhow, in the " Bull/ aurochs and man carving" segment got my attention . I watched twice 😊. The fox/ leopard skins just feels right as a definition of " team " or "tribe" mark. Speaking of teams... The " man holding bits" carving looks and feels like entertainment... A show. Here in America we have rodeos. Bull riding is the big thing people come for . In the event a rider falls or needs help we have " rodeo clowns " who run out and distract the bull.... The man holding bits and leopards other shows at the event ??? Just my snap imaginings... Thanks guys 😊
An Interesting subject. It occures to me that someone more scholarly than myself, might find clues to the inferred narrative of this frieze in the mythology of Gilgamesh. As a visual artist I spend more time with images than I do with text; still I am struck by the frequent depictions of gilgamesh between two cats (leopards, lions or tigers?) and also slaying the bull of heaven??? I know that this sight is way older than Gilgamesh but a good story is one that is told over and over for many eons.
What was the purpose of the bench at Sayburç?
The Brits crack me up, "Holding his bits" ...
Fertility symbol seems to be the obvious interpretation, assuming that he isn't part of some ancient soccer wall.
The leopards seem to have human-like teeth, and the cat on the left looks quite jocular. Could they be speaking to him?
It seems clear to me that that's not the original image: someone came along and defaced it. The lions were added later and you can tell because one's nose is touching the shoulder and to finish the image of the nose they had to go into the channel that the bas-relief is cut into. Look below the man's rib cage. The image was altered from rib cage to knees. I suspect the head shoulders and ribs are original, along with the knees down.
Have any tels been found below sea level?
Bits!
😎
kia ora e korua, does the bull have a tail? maybe he holding a tail?
comet appearing in taurus or snake or Leo?
Hello Gents, Did you look at figurines of Cucuteni- Trypillia Culture mostly female but only very few male, male figurines are holding their bits! And only one or two male holding their head like in Thinker from Hamangia. Mostly male figurines are holding their bits!
The site at Sayburç reminds me rather of a sort of ancient academy where hunting was probably taught to the plenty of students in this yet still incompletely restored facility. Keep in mind that the human figures in this "arena" look rather vulnerable and defenseless and therefore protecting their guts and groins in the leopard scene, while the bull seems to have already killed that unconsciously appearing human that has dropped his bat, as a sign of possible death. Why else would humans create such a big locality, with all these "hunting gone wrong" scenes? We should remember how our classrooms were fitted with all those pictured letter posters, teaching us the alphabet in elementary school. Makes sense, doesn't it?
designates the urinal wall... could even have kept pots for collecting urine for various uses.
Delightful speculation chaps, thank you. I pondered on what you presented and i wondered if any signs of latreens have been unearthed. Lets face it, all sophisticated communities establish rules, buildings and rituals etc, with regard to the natural bodily functions and thus promoting hygiene.The figures carved on that wall could be humour based caricatures to diffuse social embarrassment; i.e; don't be caught with your 'pants down' out in the wild...come here instead and do it safely......mmmm?
How about an old fashioned chain gang to remove some dirt?
Thanks for another fascinatingly, informative video, but I do wish you'd stop worrying about "going down another rabbit hole"!!! I think Robert kind of hits the nail on the head when he talks about people eating cute things; well omnivores anyway - herbivores and omnivores are tasty, but few animals hunt pure carnivores for food, unless there is little choice.
There is another thought though: how many people today have jewelry made from the hair, and even ashes, of a beloved pet? Surprisingly, a lot!!! I know this because a friend of mine makes the jewelry. People also take beloved, deceased pets to be stuffed by a taxidermist. Who is to say that these ancient people didn't revere and remember their best (or any) hunter by taking its skin after death and putting it to good use? A good fur pelt (not a modern day farmed one, of course) has so many desirable properties - why would ancient humans throw away such a useful resource?
Not saying they are related but I recall the 3,300 BC tatue of Min in the Ashmolean and, much later, the story of Onan in Genesis chapter 38 and the Greco-Roman Priapus imagery.
Also, again not saying related but ... the low relef picture of a woman exposing her vulva carved into the seat area of Gobleki Tepe might be just erotica but maybe points to sexual connotations as part of the "special buildings" in this era?
The flanking leapards recall the ones around the "throne" of the little female sculpture from Catalhoyuk and other "mistress/master of beasts" images?
Maybe Saburc’s man is holding his ‘bits’ because he is a sign post telling where you can alleviate yourself or not.
Relieve?
Yes, relieve, I was distracted. Thank you for letting me know.
ive always thought these tepe things were fake. those animals and people seem like adults trying to carve like a child. in the french caves 18000 years ago those artists can draw like any trained artist today. and the older Egyptians' work is considered stylized. in addition, the Australian Aborigines are older and they are obviously stylizing. they were IMO stylizing to make an event area. a little fire, some flickering images, add a drum, whistle and strange human sounds would be a great Friday night concert.
Or were the T pillars in this room removed by Romans or others as part of their quarrying?
You keep saying "fox", but there is no definitive proof that the animal depictions are indeed foxes. I think, given the setting and the fact that the animals are depictions of somewhat long, thin quadrupeds with short legs, it's far more likely that these carvings were actually meant to represent stoats (mustela erminea). In medieval Europe, the pure white winter coats of the stoat (with a black tail tip) were known as ERMINE. Indeed stoats are thought to have originated in the near east, possibly Armenia, not a million miles away from Gobekli Tepe. Is it therefore possible that the 'holder' of the 'fox' at Gobekli Tepe was in fact a representation of a KING? Certainly that T pillar also bears a representation of an animal pelt tucked into his belt. Could that therefore be representation of an ERMINE pelt? Was the tip of the pelt tail originally painted black? Were these Tepe monuments, with the possible association with the carving at Sayburc all to do with the coronation of kings? The kings in question, in that time and place, being (to our eyes) related to very small, probably city-state polities, hence the somewhat profusion of Tepe sites in Turkey.
This would echo many of the Greek myths who featured heroes who would complete tasks and then become the king of a city state, like Athens or Mycenae perhaps. It may seem an improbable proposition, given the extreme antiquity of the monuments. However, nobody knows the when was the birth of the system which gave rise to coronations- i.e. Kingship and the panoply of symbolism which surrounds it, such as ermine in the medieval period. Where the priesthood anoints the King with their blessing for his rule, therefore upholding his regime, and the King in return receives a weapon from the priesthood as a symbol of his duty to defend the faith and priesthood with his martial power. Indeed the Sayburc carving could be a depiction of the very moment of coronation itself, where the rite is 'sanctified' by the King holding on to his penis, to 'testify' (from the same origin as the word for testicles). The fact that there is no crown, which is our own ultimate symbol of kingship present within these monuments is not such an issue. As the use of a crown, as a symbol of divinity may have arisen at a later date, or in a different area, or both.
Personally, what I see on the left of the 'jaguars' (if that's what they are supposed to be) at Sayburc is a man who is obviously dancing, as he's in a dancing pose with knees bent, back leaning forwards and arms aloft. I think in his right hand he is holding a spear, with the point downwards. His hand doesn't wrap around the shaft of the spear however. This is analogous of someone who is holding not just a spear, but a spear with throwing stick, known today by various names such as 'atlatl' or 'woomera'. These were used to add extra leverage to the throw of a spear, therefore adding to the power of the spear strike and were used all around the world by many ancient societies, often as a pre-cursor to the bow and arrow. The Dancer's proximity to the bull (for surely that is what it depicts) may well allude to an act of hunting. Indeed it's my belief that the gaebolg of Irish myth is also one of these type of weapons, as they were supposed to be thrown 'from the foot' - surely an allusion to the throwing stick and it's somewhat foot-like shape. Also, you mention the little dishes or troughs, by the side of the (utterly fabulous) boar carving at Karahan Tepe, for use with water. However, what this says to me is that this dish was probably used for (unfortunately) animal sacrifice - no doubt for sacrifice of boar, in this instance - to collect blood. Which is a very unappealing thought, but it must be remembered that animal sacrifice is often used in high ritual, even around the world to this very day.
Very tantalising video. Excellent!
23:24 Gilgamesh
Oh i bet money the foxes were domesticated at that place and time!
Men's bath house.....
Maybe it was a warning to boys going peepee that there may be leopards lurking in the bushes. The same with the bull but for everyone.
The little man was built first and the animals don latter thats why he sticks out further than the others so why would they carve him first then put lions in latter ?
Richard Dawkins would call it a meme.
It’s cute you call them his bits but what’s wrong with “genitalia” or ‘genitals’? Or ‘erect penis’, or ‘phallus’?
Like very much your idea that he and the leopards are part of a story! Wonderful conversations, thank you for bringing us all these wonderful discoveries in their immediacy and context.
If archaeologists would start digging anywhere ... I mean 'wherever they want' ... not only in Turkye ... who knows what they'll find, covered with soil for thousands of years 🙃
I'm glad that there's continuity of use of sites. It is not only impossible to excavate everything but also inhumane - you would have to depopulate the entire country, or ban all building. Ongoing occupation is not only appropriate culturally (like continuing to tie strings on an ancient string-tying tree) and ecologically, but can overlap with experimental archaeology - even to learning how real life creates wear and tear on the exposed materials can help understand the buried sites.
I love learning about the past, but we shouldn't neglect the living.
If a future archeologist 5,000 - 10,000 yrs in the future found the crucifix on every continent... would that be interpreted as a common culture?
I have some thoughts.Oh dear, god forbid that those watching your talk would have this happen! I think the key to an insight to the making of images by primitive man is to understand their intense knowledge of the animals around them, stimulated by hunting. some of the housing was accessed from the roof, and if you think about foxes, they raise their young in borrows! Images of snakes are images of a mans bits! Why cannot the bench be in a place which is a meeting places for men. Rather like bad boys who right on walls, in the Elks Lodge. Remember, the making of marks, has to do with the significance animals an early counting? Or a home ritual area? I am so excited about your lovely presentations and conjectures...thank you.
Perhaps proffering his bit to be circumcise.
The little man is defo food for thew big cats plus hes naked and holding his bits i, sure if your going hunting youd have some sort of animal skin to protect your self from the animals and trees plus being naked you would stink so the animals can smell you miles away .But it looks like he was carved first because look how thick it is they took a lot of stone of for that figure were as the animal pics dont look the same style
I really wish that I could agree with your interpretation of the frieze on the bench, but I can't. I love your work and think that it's fascinating. I rarely miss a show. But it seems to me that you fellas really need to do more research into pagan mysticism and ancient mythologies, along with art history before you address any theories you might have as to the purpose of any ancient architectural structures as well as any decorative features to same. In my (obviously not very humble) opinion, your show lacks the mythological and ethnological components that are essential for the study of the ancient past. It's way too easy to dismiss the sacred in modern secular life. Taken out of its proper context, however, any ancient site may be discussed as having been purely secular or else merely decorative, which only makes it obvious how far off the mark the thinking of many modern scientists can get. Which is sad. *Ancient cultures were literally saturated with spiritual ideas and meaning. Nothing was separated from their ideas as to what was divine.* Only much later on in the historical record do we find anything depicting animals and/or humans that has no symbolic meaning whatsoever.
This is where atheism often misses the point, as it negates spiritual ideas as though no ancient humans would have looked at the world through eyes that were always spiritual and never secular. It overlooks the sacred in favor of the modern, secular viewpoint. And yet ancient cultures were never, ever secular. And I mean, not ever. Everything that the ancients ate, hunted, built, made by hand, or did in their daily lives had some spiritual significance to their cultures. I mean, absolutely everything from hunting/gathering to trade to craftsmanship to anything else that they did. We can even find similar themes throughout ancient mythology, across ages and continents. Again, *ancient cultures were literally saturated with spiritual ideas and meaning. Nothing was separated from their ideas as to what was divine.* There were absolutely no secular ancient cultures, and none of them thought about themselves as we do. Context is everything.
The bench discussed by you during this video could be interpreted more carefully via spiritual symbology, which is another area of study I wish to inject here. Meaning is conveyed by symbols, yes? And phallic symbols have their history elsewhere in connection to fertility. But let's look at bulls from that standpoint for a moment here, as well. What are bulls known to have, eh, fellas? Some of the largest "bits" in the animal world of that region, where elephants did not traditionally roam. And leopards were probably the most powerful predatory animals of that area. Ancient art is expressive of not just identity but of the connections that ancient people groups made between themselves and both the divine and animal realms - all of which were real to their ways of thinking, and all of which older indigenous people groups do not tend to separate with their thinking in modern ways. The later Akkadians depicted their kings in works that involved the sacred. Depicting kings and deities or kings and sacred activities together in the same monuments was commonplace. If a king, such as the ones in ancient Egypt, for example, was depicted in statue form, the emphasis was generally put on the deification or deity status of such a king. In fact, it was the norm. The secular was not a category back in the day. This went on for millennia. Secularism is like the new kid in school on their first day, so to speak.
And you fellas have simply got to make a point of exploring what that meant to the people who lived that way, otherwise, you'll continue to miss the point. *I also think that you've missed an opportunity here to discuss other possibly later flanking leopard motifs from the same basic region, such as the one of a seated goddess figurine found at nearby Ҫatalhöyük.* There are others, though.
Anything that took as much work and time away from ordinary subsistence living projects as the carving of that bench did, _must_ have been mainly ceremonial in nature, if not purely ceremonial. Living was loaded with ceremony in the ancient world. There was no such thing as purely secular thinking or living. Everything was bound up in whatever each culture considered to be sacred. The sacred is missing from your thinking, but it would never have been missing from the thinking of ancient people.
In fact, if we look at the houses at Ҫatalhöyük, for example, we find the sacred integrated into household daily living. Indeed, they buried their dead family members under the floors of their homes. This was considered as sacred space. Homes were sacred spaces, in part to set them apart from the natural realm of wild animals.
The low benches at the sites in that region remind me of the kiva structures of the American Southwest, also built of stone in rocky landscapes. A kiva was "a chamber, built wholly or partly underground, traditionally used by male members of the Pueblo people for religious rites." But it generally had a low, curving wall that we think functioned as a bench. These were mainly subterranean rooms made with intention for ceremonial and administrative purposes. But, again, the sacred was always a part of even administrative meetings among the Puebloan cultures as everything was considered to have spiritual significance. It's a huge topic, so I won't take it any further here.
But, please rethink your thinking here, fellas.
Hi Rose,
Thank you for such a considered comment. I’m not sure what we are disagreeing about, or what thinking we should be rethinking - unless you mean that you don’t think the frieze is a narrative. It is true that we don’t discuss religious and spiritual iconology or iconography, but that’s mostly because unless the symbols under discussion are known, we would only be adding to the subjectivity.
The problem with studying this bench through modern eyes is that we bring our established modern interpretations into play. Yes, all your suggestions have value, but certainty about the concepts of a culture from 10,000 years ago is still a long way off. To be honest, we see our remit rather more as bringing things to the public eye, so any debate means we have done our job. The correlations with kivas or any other aspect of distant cultures is indeed fascinating, but we must be careful with apparent convergent evolution. Many cultures have found similar solutions to problems, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can be understood in the same way. We could certainly discuss this for weeks:) All best, Rupert
It is such a shame these guys don't have a sense of humor, despite their futile attempts,pts and no presence either.
all things in our existence project themselves into the future with seed... the things they leave behind themselves... their culture.... the ancient Egyptian book of the dead says so...
the theoretic theory of existence is simply in and out... the earth is currently fully populated and has reached global vision.... we need to use it...
Mabe he was scared to get some kind of circumcision ritual.
That was for newborns.
Uhmmm I love history and I’ve been following you two scientists 🥼 for a couple years now and appreciate the information you share, even though it does go over my head sometimes and when you two start giggling 🤭 sharing insider jokes like frat boys in a secret society. I can get very confused 😐. But I’ve been watching you two for I think it’s been four years, I’m learning how you present your information you want to share, I have been learning so much more that is fact and supported by scientists. There’s also Milo Rossi/ miniminuteman on TH-cam who is a scientist 👨🔬 I’ve been learning from him for about two years now and he’s great too! But that charlatan graham hanncock has been popping up more and more lately in the algorithm, isn’t there anything real scientists like yourself can do about him? He’s just doing these videos to make money for his now lavish lifestyle. How can he be stopped spreading his false claims in his so called research.
Thank you @HBADGERBRAD for persevering with our idiosyncrasies all this time 😊. In answer to your question, we would say do your best to support Flint Dibble @FlintDibble who is the only archaeologist we know of of have taken on Graham Hancock directly. Read his recent article in the Guardian: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/28/lost-civilisations-make-good-tv-ancient-apocalypse-but-archaeology-real-stories-hold-far-more-wonder
❤