Little did he know, he would be returning less than a month later to replace compessor 3, and all 3 contactors on that main dining hall system, and that little 4ton compressor where he put all the silicon around the electrical box.
This sand is the worst. The super fine sand that gets blown around and settles on everything. We were fighting it for weeks and still cleaning up from it.
Adding a thin film of petroleum jelly to the box and put the silicone on the cover sparingly. It does well for keeping out a lot of the dirt/sand, still not perfect but allows the cover to be easily removed.
I wonder about just a thin strip of silicone grease.. a physical barrier to keep it out. Waterproof too. And block physically the sand element without any long lasting and annoying sealant itself.
Suggestion: when blowing sand or dirt out of a box, start by blowing downward along the back of the box. That should blow a lot of the dirt out the front of the box along the bottom, instead of turning it into a big cloud that chokes you and settles back down on all the equipment. Once you get most of the sand to blow out along the shelf of the box you can blow at other angles.
You'll need to switch to a solid state contactor.. These run in the $300-$500 price range for a UL listed one. For example Fuji SS203 series. They have a ton of configurations so you'll probably want something like a SS203-1-D2 or -D3 -D4 etc. They also have a -1Z version that has zero crossing which keeps the contactor from turning on until the AC voltage crosses the Zero point. This helps remove that fast current spike. Probably not needed for this application. Since these have no moving parts there are not points to burn.
Glad to see someone with actual advise send it as an email! I commented on a previous video they just surely make solid state version for these super sandy locations where he seems to replace them pretty regularly.
I'd suggest getting some rubber weather stripping, the stuff you find on your car doors. You might be able to fit it on the edge of the sheetmetal so when you install the cover, it will make a good seal! For perfection, make 45° bevels on the corners for nice tight security.
IP65 weatherproof enclosures on all mechanical contactors. Takes an hour of labor and you usually want to change out short wires while there. Adds about $200 but if your $300 contactors are only lasting 2 weeks they pay for themselves. Had this same issue in Bakersfield in the sticks. Actually doubled the normal service life of our contactors just by keeping regular dust out. Anything fan cooled like a VFD we have placed extra clear shields around just to provide a little extra protection from direct dust. Allen Bradley sells them for their VFDs along with Cutler Ham.
wow a hvacr technician using a Wera 7441 VDE Adjustable Torque Screwdriver. I never thought that day would come. In Electrical it is a must for the Inspector they want to know how you did it. for some one moving from Hvacr to get my electrical license. you know what is up chris nice work. Chris makes it right in his videos. a true trades men. you rock chris.
Looks like sandman was cruising by 🤷🏻♂️. Quick tip use a long flathead screwdriver 🪛 to tighten those lug style contactors . No Wiha for me . Good video Chris ✌🏼
It needs to be like the box the defrost clock is in. Some of them usually have like a gasket/oring around the edge to prevent ingress in through the door
DIY flag terminal crimpers: Start with a pair of worn (dull) diagonal wire cutters and grind the tips blunt, 1/8" or so, enough to remove the sharp tips. Open the jaws and using a cutoff disk, grind the cutting edges flat and parallel, leaving a small gap between the old cutting edges so they crush instead of cutting.. This will allow you to crimp the terminal from the back side, 90 deg to the wire and opposite the lug side. The narrow blades will provide far more crimping force than trying to crip with pliers. Works with bare or insulated terminals as long as the edges are dulled enough to crimp but not cut. Been using a pair like this at work for 40 years. Dave Cash
Thanks again for sharing your experiences. Starting watching a few years back when I got into commercial HVAC, and these videos are always insightful and oddly enough, also entertaining.
Sand will destroy anything with exposed moving parts. Contactors, vfd fans, motor bearings. For the critical systems whos controls can’t easily be sealed up, some PVC junction boxes work amazing along with gland connectors. You could also run sealing foam tape and sheet metal edge guard. It’s a good bit of work but it might cost the customer less than having downtime on critical systems every time there’s sand. You can also get sealed motors.
And those VFD fans are an important one, especially with the Socal heat. It will take a little while for the VFD to fail after the fan does, it might shut itself off on temperature safety. Check to see if that little fan spins up, you could probably replace one yourself too!
I have to agree that some foam insulation around the inside of the electrical boxes would be a good move. Window ACs are a perfect example, because foam tape is commonly used to close them up. I realize that in the absurd heat the foam may not survive all that well, but it's going to be inside the box simply providing a seal from the elements. The main downfall I could see with this is that the foam and adhesive could both be flammable, and in a situation where the contactor shits itself, you could have an electrical box fire on your hands. The suggestion about PVC boxes is also good, though it may require relocating the controls outside of the unit itself.
@@EnderMalcolm I agree, there are drawbacks to both approaches. Foam tape would be a great temporary solution, but I think those junction boxes are the only real way to do it permanently. It’s certainly not standard refrigeration practice, but if it is done safely and neat it would be far from hack work. Gotta get creative when no product exists for your application.
If all the control electronics were in an enclosure like the Rittal AE and with proper sealing of all the incoming/outgoing cables then sand in the contactors wouldn't be a problem. It's IP66 / NEMA 4X. There's no point in having the individual components being high encapsulation class, it's the enclosure for the control electronics that shall protect all the control devices.
What many may not be aware that the sand in the Coachella Valley is extremely fine almost a powder. The sand out there will find the smallest cracks and come into things. There is a bridge just North of Palm Springs Airport and South of I-10 on Gene Autry Trail, also called Indian Canyon Drive, that goes over the Union Pacific Railroad tracks where Sand Dunes on both Sides of the road.
I wonder how the other contactor you replaced looks. I'm up in western Washington so I'm glad I don't have to deal with sandstorms. Changing a compressor while it's raining is not fun though.
You could use some adhesive foam tape or windows seal tape (I just assume you have those in the US too though, not sure) on the inside rim of the cover, that should offer some more sealing and wouldn't be a problem to remove the cover again.
Flag crimpers of reasonable price Eclipse Tools 300-072 Eclipse Tools 902-332 Ferrules Direct FDT10053 Ferrules Direct FDT10055 Ferrules Direct FDT10058 Ferrules Direct KST2000F Not quite as good as the real OEM AMP tools but quite usable. Just make sure you pay attention to the size range and type of terminal (insulated vrs uninsulated vrs open barrel). There are lots of options to pick from
I'm wondering how some rubber/silicone weatherstripping might hold up - it wouldn't seal the panels shut like RTV silicone or caulking would, but your panels could still be removable and help keep a bit more sand out.
What I do is silicone the panels then next time on site carefully cut the silicone flush if done right with a sharp knife it goes back together with a decent seal, not 100% airtight but it helps keep garbage out..
You are very much right. Having worked on something similar (well pumps with outdoor panels next to farm fields) that sand, dust, dirt gets in the panel, and it interferes with the breakers ability to trip. The only time those actually fully trip once filled with debris is when they overheat to the point they melt the internal contact on the breaker. Now that doesn't mean they can't still make contact, but now they are allowing through excess current until the breaker on the main panel which feeds the sub-panel trips which it never will. It won't tell because the main panel breaker feeding the sub-panel is much higher amperage (usually 100 amps) than the 30 amp fuse feeding the refrigeration unit. That will fry points in the contactor, and the reason you had trouble turning off and resetting the breaker is that the internals are melted. The resistance you were meeting was literally breaking the internals free where they had melted together. Unless they move that sub-panel inside they are going to end up having an electrical fire. I agree that those windings are probably already shot. I also was an automotive service technician so I look at rooftop units the same way as a car alternator. A stator is a stator. They all heat up, as they heat up the resistance increases, and given constant voltage that means the amperage has to increase producing even more heat. With the way that breaker was failing the draw the compressor was pulling through is more than enough to burn or completely melt those stator windings. It's just a matter of time and which will fail first the breaker causing a fire, or the stator windings destroying the compressor. There are definitely a few things that need changing there for longevity, and safety. As far as sealing the covers you can use foam tape and pinch it in via compression to seal all the boxes. There's also using Vaseline to seal it too it'll catch the majority of the sand. Yes that will have to be redone each time things are opened so the tape is a better solution, but either is better than v no glorified sand filter at all.
20:00 Maybe come out there every other day and put in a new contactor? (Or start buying contactors that are hermetically sealed / higher operation lifetime.)
Seal up any holes in the connection boxes and use stormgaurd rubber foam straps which are sticky back put them round where the lid and the box meet to create a weatherproof gasket work a treat
I really gotta wonder, in an area where it is known things like sand storms happen. They’d design things resistant the bedt it can to sand. Kinda like waterproofing but then for sand
I will discuss this on my livestream this evening on TH-cam 8/1/22 @ 3:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/HSIOTgOXxV0/w-d-xo.html
Then he has to re wrap it next time he wirks on it. Next john doe hvac wannabee or dome manager walks up there cuts the saran wrap off sand gets in. They call Chris he comes out who cut the saran wrap off with out replacing it?
I once blew out the sand from a switchboard in the sand room of a foundry for preventative maintenance and 3 of the contactors failed within days. It shut down that production line for hours... Pulled them apart and found I had blew the dust into them and it had increased the resistance enough to burn the contacts. I never blow out dust anywhere near contactors any more, now I vacuum it.
Wow that sandstorm WAS EXTREMELY BAD. That sand blocked the beer walk in, walk in cooler/freezer and the air conditioner’s condensers could’ve been blocked up with chunks of sand hence reducing the efficiency of the systems
Yup I’ve been having all kinds of sand related fun this week. Condenser fans, contractors, swamp coolers filled with sand. The Memorial Day weekend was almost constant wind and sandstorms.
You could put shrink wrap on one side of the box or door, then use automotive gasketmaker. It's a black (usually) silicone product. You apply it, loosely tighten the cover, then once it cures you can fully tighten (basically the first step is forming it, and once it's set you can compress the new gasket by fully tightening)
First time I've seen a torque screwdriver neat. You can use silicone to seal a lid just need gladwrap (our food version) sandwich wrap basically a plastic film you wrap food in. Squrit you seal around the sealing surface (depends on if the lid seals in or outside) put the wrap over it and screw your cover on. No problems taking the cover off and you get a pretty air/sand seal. Don't even have to take the wrap off as it adds a sort off very thin O-ring seal.
In welding machines they used to wrap contactors and or switches in thick foil plastic bag. To prevent the grinding / welding dust which is conductive to short out the machine. Only wires go through the openings of the bag and are zip tie thight. Of course a few holes in the bag for bolts holding the swich but then the bag is pressed tight betwen it and the device wall. Could it work here?
For the dust ingress on covers, try a 3M product called Strip-caulk. You can find it at autobody supply shops. It never gets hard and always stays pliable. Comes in strips of 12 inches; looks a little like small strips of black playdough. I use it for lots of sealing issues that need to be opened up again.
24:50 i would say there has not been enough pressure on the contacts cause of the sand jamming the mechanism of that relays and so burning out those contacts so fast.
Do they have a service come up and clean off the roof? I'd imagine the first time the winds pick back up, everything gets related. Atleast that's how it is after a dust storm around here.
You can get automotive door jamb seal in bulk rolls off Amazon. It slips onto the electrical panels front flange and makes a great seal against the front cover. We used it at beachfront locations to keep the salt/sand out. Look for. “Trim seal with top bulb”.
Hi Chris thanks for taking us along on this sandy/dusty call. I had the same problem all the suppliers in my area knew what I was taking about but didn’t know where to order a flag terminal crimper so I looked on Amazon and found the one I put the product info below I’ve had it for a year and a half and I’m really happy to have it in my tool kit I also got the dies for crimping regular insulated terminals so I’ve got one tool to do multiple terminal types. Here is the info for the ratcheting crimper with the blue and yellow flag dies. Pro’s kit 902-330 crimp pro crimped for insulated flag terminals AWG 12-10 and 14-16 size, Yellow, blue And the die set for red and blue Pro’s kit 300-070 Lunar series die set for insulated flag terminals
I find it sad that high-end expensive refrigeration and air conditioning equipment can't be bothered to put a $5 rubber seal around the doors and covers of electrical enclosures. Would have saved A LOT headache for this customer, and you a lot of time.
@@petersmart1999 No, the sales rep. would boast there is 80% improved reliability vs competition. And increase the price 100$ for every 5$ the company throws up ...
I agree. The entire unit should be gasketed like the blower and coil access doors are. The other problem is economizers and makeup air dampers that don’t completely close. All these new smart systems should know to shut down during a wind event.
Hey Chris, just wanted to mention something. The torque spec on the contactors is 40 inch pounds. Or a little over 3 foot pounds. They write it really small on those contractors and they write it kinda funny. 40 lb-in. I thought the same thing at first but caught myself thinking man thats really high, but yeah its inch pounds. Great video as usual. I've learned a lot from you and wanted to return the favor. 😁 Edit - I wrote this during the opening part of the video and it's seems you corrected yourself later in the video, but yeah man, just wanted to throw that out there. That would be one hell of a contactor if it could handle 40 ft/lbs without busting the lugs clean off. 🤣🤣
^^^ Congrats, you won the one most important comment award, that probably won't get read. What was it, a mission to the moon when units were messed up like this? "WHOOP, I OVERTORQUED AND RUINED THE CONTACTOR." 😆
I’ve suggested to you before, but you probably forgot lol. Get the Klein cutter/crimper tool from Home Depot and grind of the cutter and insulated end of the jaws. Then you only have the uninsulated crimper left.
When I worked for Taylor we would have 8 ice cream machines hooked to a glycol tower on the roof. It’s a closed loop system that would eliminate any condensers from being outdoors. I never installed one so I don’t know the brand. Maybe something to look into for a new install location.
You said the return line was "cold as heck" because it was still bringing down the box. Is this because it had been running continuously for longer than usual? Timestamp around 7:00
A suitably rated SSR or even a large triac would be nice, as it would have no moving parts to get fouled up with sand! That being said, t's important to consider that the compressor will start up at locked rotor amperage for 0.5-1 second, which is quite a lot longer than the 1-cycle peak repetitive surge current rating on the SSR. The large inductive back-EMF when the compressor is switched off could also be an issue for the SSR, but the triac should be OK due to remaining latched until the current has fully decayed.
Two other considerations: the efficiency of SSRs are much less than contactors due to the voltage drop, so you have to consider the dissipation especially if you put it in a NEMA 4ish enclosure. Also that the frequent failure mode is on, but in this situation it probably isn't the worst thing in the world. (lastly a contactor will survive a short, while an SSR wont, but that should be preventable.) Honestly, I SSRs, but I understand their drawbacks too. They are not a panacea, but in the right place they can be a huge improvement in reliability or at the very least determinacy, since they're rarely half-failed .
You might think about getting a ferrule crimper and the ends to bring the quality of the connections up even more. They make it so you're not having to do quite as many dances to get a properly torqued lug. I got one from Knipex that has a rotatable crimper for getting into tight spots 97 53 18 is the part number.
I have to wonder if there are any panel gaskets for high debris areas. That way you don't need to seal it up with silicone, and you still get some protection.
There are 30 amp 3 phase solid state relays. I don't know for sure if they are suitable for use in this application but it might be worth looking into. They are between $200 and $250, and may require some additional wiring for some units due to a lack of auxiliary contacts, but they may solve the sand problem.
yes be kind and rewind. apart from putting the control cabling in a sealed enclosure ( a higher IP rating sealed box) i don't know what else you could do
We use the crimper set from Wirefy at work. We don't do flag connectors though it does have the die for them and we have done quick-disconnects before and it's been pretty reliable. Mind, we don't do HVAC work but it seems pretty good and the price when we got it a couple of years ago was entirely reasonable. As for the contactor, you could chain multiple single-phase solid-state relays in a pinch by paralleling the control wires, but I don't know how well they'd handle the heat. I agree with the other comments though that an IP6x enclosure would be another option if heating isn't an issue.
try soft thin foam tape stuck inside the cover, so it seals when on/closed or just duct tape around the outside after it's on. maybe leave just the bottom open or a small section of it.
Is this out by the salton sea? It’s the only place I’ve seen that does this. Near Death Valley and the Yuma proving grounds too. Kind of all the same desert tho.
Personally I'd recommend going to discreet relays for individual phases, since finding single-phase relays of the needed rating is easy and they can usually be paralleled up or just going with the even-more-expensive solution of a solid-state relay. Maybe wrap the edges of the box before closing it in PVC electrical tape to make an impromptu gasket for it that you can self-clearance to fit with a mallet. As for that melty wire, my guess would be that the contactor's been changed so much that wire fatigue got enough strands broken that the resistance got too high and it melted, usually you see that with solid-core wires but I've seen it happen plenty on stranded wires that don't have strain relief - breaks right before the end of the jacket.
i use Cembre crimpers for everything i don't know if you have them in america but they work great, i have a couple that are 15yrs old and are still reliable. Search for Cembre MLL 90
Pros kit flag crimper head is what I got, plus other heads to do 3 standardized colors/sizes, 3 sizes of flag terminals, bare flag terminal heads too. I went a little bit crazy, spent like $120ish myself. 1 handle (wish I had 2) and a bunch of heads.
The easy way around the cover problem put your bead of silicone around the edge of the box one the lid where it meets the box but a smear of grease of some form that will allow the silicone to seal but NOT stick so removal is not a problem a trick i use on rally cars to keep grime out of boxes
Chris, i bought flag crimpers on Amazon and they work well for me. Pro's Kit 902-330 is for insulated flag terminals and Pro's Kit 300-073 is for non-insulated flags.
For the panles that you *can* close. Could you make a sort of gasket with silicone on the panels? So the edge makes a knives edge seal, like on the ships for the watertight doors. Or tape around the edge.
Allso SSR solid state relays. Sorry. But my Norwegian electrician genes makes me say this. Why is there not an IP64 standard for All electrical equipment outside? Minimum spec over here is IP24, and IP44 outside and wet rooms, pluss RCD on all cunsumer circuits.
Good video, always weird watching your videos. I live in the are you work (dont know if you let people know where you are located). By the way the sand storms have been freaking crazy lately. Our parking lot had mounds 18 inches tall of sand. Burying planters in the parking lot.
Good video and comments on the Megger usage. I think Copeland also says Scroll compressors have show lower resistance too because the motor is on the bottom and in the oil. Yea, crazy sand...we were driving the Sunday before Memorial day through Cabazon area near your location here, thought the vehicle was going to be sand blasted and blown off the freeway!
Little did he know, he would be returning less than a month later to replace compessor 3, and all 3 contactors on that main dining hall system, and that little 4ton compressor where he put all the silicon around the electrical box.
Imperial Tool IE150 available on Amazon. I was an Appliance repairman for Sears and we Carried this tool for factory looking crimp connections.
I don’t like sand. It’s coarse and rough and irritating… and it gets everywhere!
Beat me to it.
This sand is the worst. The super fine sand that gets blown around and settles on everything. We were fighting it for weeks and still cleaning up from it.
@@JeffreyJakucyk
Beat us all lol
I feel like I've heard that exact line somewhere else.
Literally came here only to make sure this was here.
Adding a thin film of petroleum jelly to the box and put the silicone on the cover sparingly. It does well for keeping out a lot of the dirt/sand, still not perfect but allows the cover to be easily removed.
I wonder about just a thin strip of silicone grease.. a physical barrier to keep it out. Waterproof too. And block physically the sand element without any long lasting and annoying sealant itself.
Petroleum jelly is a great release agent for silicone. I have used this trick while making molds numerous times!
Weird. "I want it to seal, but I want the seal to be temporary." Uhhh... A gasket is exactly for that purpose. 😆
Suggestion: when blowing sand or dirt out of a box, start by blowing downward along the back of the box. That should blow a lot of the dirt out the front of the box along the bottom, instead of turning it into a big cloud that chokes you and settles back down on all the equipment. Once you get most of the sand to blow out along the shelf of the box you can blow at other angles.
Yah know...you should never have had to suggest that. It should be commonsense.
You'll need to switch to a solid state contactor.. These run in the $300-$500 price range for a UL listed one. For example Fuji SS203 series. They have a ton of configurations so you'll probably want something like a SS203-1-D2 or -D3 -D4 etc. They also have a -1Z version that has zero crossing which keeps the contactor from turning on until the AC voltage crosses the Zero point. This helps remove that fast current spike. Probably not needed for this application. Since these have no moving parts there are not points to burn.
he addressed it at 28:15 if you have suggestions send him models and product links to his email
IP65 enclosure. Waterproof, $150 bucks and an hour of labor, and no hard to find or expensive contactor needed
I thought there was a podcast with an Emerson/WR rep recently that talked about expanding the SureSwitch line but much search yields no results.
@@davejohnsonnola7908 jb 4aaz b c w. T a 4 g. B 4a aa4a c vae g AEG AEG AEG ae AA AEG gs vae av4. .EA4 A! . B E B G B. 4
Glad to see someone with actual advise send it as an email! I commented on a previous video they just surely make solid state version for these super sandy locations where he seems to replace them pretty regularly.
I'd suggest getting some rubber weather stripping, the stuff you find on your car doors. You might be able to fit it on the edge of the sheetmetal so when you install the cover, it will make a good seal! For perfection, make 45° bevels on the corners for nice tight security.
If you don’t want to silicone the boxes just use some of that aluminum duct tape and seal it with that. Your an HVAC guy… you got the stuff!
An Hvac guy would call it foil tape
That's exactly what I would have done here. Foil tape always in the work van so just grab that. Easy to cut and tape over if needed.
Exactly what I was thinking. Or even some armaflex on the inside of the covers haha. These sandy videos make me grateful to work where I do.
IP65 weatherproof enclosures on all mechanical contactors. Takes an hour of labor and you usually want to change out short wires while there. Adds about $200 but if your $300 contactors are only lasting 2 weeks they pay for themselves. Had this same issue in Bakersfield in the sticks. Actually doubled the normal service life of our contactors just by keeping regular dust out. Anything fan cooled like a VFD we have placed extra clear shields around just to provide a little extra protection from direct dust. Allen Bradley sells them for their VFDs along with Cutler Ham.
Great to ear that!!!
Do not forget to use the cable glands as well 😉
IP rated enclosures and glands are the standard here.
wow a hvacr technician using a Wera 7441 VDE Adjustable Torque Screwdriver. I never thought that day would come. In Electrical it is a must for the Inspector they want to know how you did it. for some one moving from Hvacr to get my electrical license. you know what is up chris nice work. Chris makes it right in his videos. a true trades men. you rock chris.
Thanks bud!!
Looks like sandman was cruising by 🤷🏻♂️. Quick tip use a long flathead screwdriver 🪛 to tighten those lug style contactors . No Wiha for me . Good video Chris ✌🏼
Seeing all the sand makes me happy to be an hvac mechanic in south Carolina where we get rain in abundance rather than sand
Why don’t you use water and dust tight boxes? We have those in Germany for electronic stuff.
Not always feasible, since AC systems do need air circulation for heat exchanging/cooling of internal components within the racks.
It needs to be like the box the defrost clock is in. Some of them usually have like a gasket/oring around the edge to prevent ingress in through the door
NEMA 4 enclosures are very expensive relative to the less well sealed enclosures - not typically used much outside of heavy industrial locations.
Sure but a breaker or a contactor requires not that much cooling, so no sand is probably better than less cooling I guess
@@chemech if u prevent a single service call with a better box it most likely paid for it self
3m 1 sided foam sealing tape. Worth a shot to look into it. It's the stuff you'd normally see in with in window ac units
DIY flag terminal crimpers: Start with a pair of worn (dull) diagonal wire cutters and grind the tips blunt, 1/8" or so, enough to remove the sharp tips. Open the jaws and using a cutoff disk, grind the cutting edges flat and parallel, leaving a small gap between the old cutting edges so they crush instead of cutting.. This will allow you to crimp the terminal from the back side, 90 deg to the wire and opposite the lug side. The narrow blades will provide far more crimping force than trying to crip with pliers. Works with bare or insulated terminals as long as the edges are dulled enough to crimp but not cut. Been using a pair like this at work for 40 years.
Dave Cash
Would you care to upload a photo, of that tool, please?
Darude. Who would have thought sand could cause so much chaos. Great job getting everything firing on all cylinders again!
I understood that reference ^
I'm kinda surprised there is no three phase monitoring/shutdown on fault on these units
Phase balanced breaker.
It seems like, in this situation, that it could be a smart add on.
Anyone using ICM450 series?
If they fail to protect, will they default to off/protected mode?
ICM phase monitors
MP15
Thanks again for sharing your experiences. Starting watching a few years back when I got into commercial HVAC, and these videos are always insightful and oddly enough, also entertaining.
Sand will destroy anything with exposed moving parts. Contactors, vfd fans, motor bearings. For the critical systems whos controls can’t easily be sealed up, some PVC junction boxes work amazing along with gland connectors. You could also run sealing foam tape and sheet metal edge guard. It’s a good bit of work but it might cost the customer less than having downtime on critical systems every time there’s sand. You can also get sealed motors.
And those VFD fans are an important one, especially with the Socal heat. It will take a little while for the VFD to fail after the fan does, it might shut itself off on temperature safety. Check to see if that little fan spins up, you could probably replace one yourself too!
I have to agree that some foam insulation around the inside of the electrical boxes would be a good move. Window ACs are a perfect example, because foam tape is commonly used to close them up. I realize that in the absurd heat the foam may not survive all that well, but it's going to be inside the box simply providing a seal from the elements.
The main downfall I could see with this is that the foam and adhesive could both be flammable, and in a situation where the contactor shits itself, you could have an electrical box fire on your hands.
The suggestion about PVC boxes is also good, though it may require relocating the controls outside of the unit itself.
@@EnderMalcolm I agree, there are drawbacks to both approaches. Foam tape would be a great temporary solution, but I think those junction boxes are the only real way to do it permanently. It’s certainly not standard refrigeration practice, but if it is done safely and neat it would be far from hack work. Gotta get creative when no product exists for your application.
If all the control electronics were in an enclosure like the Rittal AE and with proper sealing of all the incoming/outgoing cables then sand in the contactors wouldn't be a problem. It's IP66 / NEMA 4X. There's no point in having the individual components being high encapsulation class, it's the enclosure for the control electronics that shall protect all the control devices.
@@ehsnils 🤣 fact of life if theres a chance for sand to get in it will.
Chris check out the Emerson 49M11-843, SureSwitch™ Multi-Volt contactor. It’s fully sealed contacts for this application! Does 24-240v coil as well.
Sadly that Sureswitch is only for single phase
That will work just fine. Break two legs and you are good. Now it’s not the best, but sometimes you have to engineer a solution to fix this problem
I either use an SSR or replace the enclosure with an steel IP65 enclosure and gland all the cable entries?
You might also be able to fit your defrost timer in the same enclosure - profit :)
Do they make harsh environment contactors? Can you replace the enclosure with a weatherproof one?
Yes. They are called hermetically sealed contactors.
What many may not be aware that the sand in the Coachella Valley is extremely fine almost a powder. The sand out there will find the smallest cracks and come into things. There is a bridge just North of Palm Springs Airport and South of I-10 on Gene Autry Trail, also called Indian Canyon Drive, that goes over the Union Pacific Railroad tracks where Sand Dunes on both Sides of the road.
Lost all the paint off the front of my truck in that location once.
I wonder how the other contactor you replaced looks. I'm up in western Washington so I'm glad I don't have to deal with sandstorms. Changing a compressor while it's raining is not fun though.
Had to set up a temporary tent fee.... 😄
You could use some adhesive foam tape or windows seal tape (I just assume you have those in the US too though, not sure) on the inside rim of the cover, that should offer some more sealing and wouldn't be a problem to remove the cover again.
Flag crimpers of reasonable price
Eclipse Tools 300-072
Eclipse Tools 902-332
Ferrules Direct FDT10053
Ferrules Direct FDT10055
Ferrules Direct FDT10058
Ferrules Direct KST2000F
Not quite as good as the real OEM AMP tools but quite usable. Just make sure you pay attention to the size range and type of terminal (insulated vrs uninsulated vrs open barrel). There are lots of options to pick from
I'm wondering how some rubber/silicone weatherstripping might hold up - it wouldn't seal the panels shut like RTV silicone or caulking would, but your panels could still be removable and help keep a bit more sand out.
Just install an IP65 enclosure?
What I do is silicone the panels then next time on site carefully cut the silicone flush if done right with a sharp knife it goes back together with a decent seal, not 100% airtight but it helps keep garbage out..
You are very much right. Having worked on something similar (well pumps with outdoor panels next to farm fields) that sand, dust, dirt gets in the panel, and it interferes with the breakers ability to trip. The only time those actually fully trip once filled with debris is when they overheat to the point they melt the internal contact on the breaker. Now that doesn't mean they can't still make contact, but now they are allowing through excess current until the breaker on the main panel which feeds the sub-panel trips which it never will. It won't tell because the main panel breaker feeding the sub-panel is much higher amperage (usually 100 amps) than the 30 amp fuse feeding the refrigeration unit. That will fry points in the contactor, and the reason you had trouble turning off and resetting the breaker is that the internals are melted. The resistance you were meeting was literally breaking the internals free where they had melted together. Unless they move that sub-panel inside they are going to end up having an electrical fire. I agree that those windings are probably already shot. I also was an automotive service technician so I look at rooftop units the same way as a car alternator. A stator is a stator. They all heat up, as they heat up the resistance increases, and given constant voltage that means the amperage has to increase producing even more heat. With the way that breaker was failing the draw the compressor was pulling through is more than enough to burn or completely melt those stator windings. It's just a matter of time and which will fail first the breaker causing a fire, or the stator windings destroying the compressor. There are definitely a few things that need changing there for longevity, and safety. As far as sealing the covers you can use foam tape and pinch it in via compression to seal all the boxes. There's also using Vaseline to seal it too it'll catch the majority of the sand. Yes that will have to be redone each time things are opened so the tape is a better solution, but either is better than v no glorified sand filter at all.
20:00 Maybe come out there every other day and put in a new contactor? (Or start buying contactors that are hermetically sealed / higher operation lifetime.)
Seal up any holes in the connection boxes and use stormgaurd rubber foam straps which are sticky back put them round where the lid and the box meet to create a weatherproof gasket work a treat
I just did a search for 3 phase Solid State Relay and Boat loads showed up for 50 amps +...
I really gotta wonder, in an area where it is known things like sand storms happen. They’d design things resistant the bedt it can to sand. Kinda like waterproofing but then for sand
I will discuss this on my livestream this evening on TH-cam 8/1/22 @ 3:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/HSIOTgOXxV0/w-d-xo.html
Should get some of the movers Saran Wrap and just wrap the box tight to keep the sand out.
Then he has to re wrap it next time he wirks on it. Next john doe hvac wannabee or dome manager walks up there cuts the saran wrap off sand gets in. They call Chris he comes out who cut the saran wrap off with out replacing it?
I use the miniwrap rolls for all sorts of things. I think I find more uses for that than duct tape.
I once blew out the sand from a switchboard in the sand room of a foundry for preventative maintenance and 3 of the contactors failed within days. It shut down that production line for hours...
Pulled them apart and found I had blew the dust into them and it had increased the resistance enough to burn the contacts.
I never blow out dust anywhere near contactors any more, now I vacuum it.
Wow that sandstorm WAS EXTREMELY BAD. That sand blocked the beer walk in, walk in cooler/freezer and the air conditioner’s condensers could’ve been blocked up with chunks of sand hence reducing the efficiency of the systems
Yup I’ve been having all kinds of sand related fun this week. Condenser fans, contractors, swamp coolers filled with sand.
The Memorial Day weekend was almost constant wind and sandstorms.
Isn't it just the same problem repeatedly though? Bad contactor, that end up ruining other equipment.
You could put shrink wrap on one side of the box or door, then use automotive gasketmaker. It's a black (usually) silicone product. You apply it, loosely tighten the cover, then once it cures you can fully tighten (basically the first step is forming it, and once it's set you can compress the new gasket by fully tightening)
First time I've seen a torque screwdriver neat. You can use silicone to seal a lid just need gladwrap (our food version) sandwich wrap basically a plastic film you wrap food in. Squrit you seal around the sealing surface (depends on if the lid seals in or outside) put the wrap over it and screw your cover on. No problems taking the cover off and you get a pretty air/sand seal. Don't even have to take the wrap off as it adds a sort off very thin O-ring seal.
In welding machines they used to wrap contactors and or switches in thick foil plastic bag. To prevent the grinding / welding dust which is conductive to short out the machine. Only wires go through the openings of the bag and are zip tie thight. Of course a few holes in the bag for bolts holding the swich but then the bag is pressed tight betwen it and the device wall. Could it work here?
For the dust ingress on covers, try a 3M product called Strip-caulk. You can find it at autobody supply shops. It never gets hard and always stays pliable. Comes in strips of 12 inches; looks a little like small strips of black playdough. I use it for lots of sealing issues that need to be opened up again.
I just bought the wirefy crimper set. Crimps many different connectors including flags. Under $100 for kit.
24:50 i would say there has not been enough pressure on the contacts cause of the sand jamming the mechanism of that relays and so burning out those contacts so fast.
It could also be that he over-torqued it when he confused ft-lb with in-lb.
Do they have a service come up and clean off the roof? I'd imagine the first time the winds pick back up, everything gets related.
Atleast that's how it is after a dust storm around here.
You can get automotive door jamb seal in bulk rolls off Amazon. It slips onto the electrical panels front flange and makes a great seal against the front cover. We used it at beachfront locations to keep the salt/sand out. Look for. “Trim seal with top bulb”.
Hi Chris thanks for taking us along on this sandy/dusty call. I had the same problem all the suppliers in my area knew what I was taking about but didn’t know where to order a flag terminal crimper so I looked on Amazon and found the one I put the product info below I’ve had it for a year and a half and I’m really happy to have it in my tool kit I also got the dies for crimping regular insulated terminals so I’ve got one tool to do multiple terminal types.
Here is the info for the ratcheting crimper with the blue and yellow flag dies.
Pro’s kit 902-330 crimp pro crimped for insulated flag terminals AWG 12-10 and 14-16 size, Yellow, blue
And the die set for red and blue
Pro’s kit 300-070 Lunar series die set for insulated flag terminals
I find it sad that high-end expensive refrigeration and air conditioning equipment can't be bothered to put a $5 rubber seal around the doors and covers of electrical enclosures. Would have saved A LOT headache for this customer, and you a lot of time.
Or just put it into a plastic IP65 enclosure like every manufacturer in Europe would've done lol.
$5 rubber seal x 50,000 units,the CEO would see his bonus shrink!
@@petersmart1999 No, the sales rep. would boast there is 80% improved reliability vs competition. And increase the price 100$ for every 5$ the company throws up ...
I agree. The entire unit should be gasketed like the blower and coil access doors are. The other problem is economizers and makeup air dampers that don’t completely close. All these new smart systems should know to shut down during a wind event.
Have these idiots ever heard of IP rated enclosures
Hey Chris, just wanted to mention something. The torque spec on the contactors is 40 inch pounds. Or a little over 3 foot pounds. They write it really small on those contractors and they write it kinda funny. 40 lb-in. I thought the same thing at first but caught myself thinking man thats really high, but yeah its inch pounds. Great video as usual. I've learned a lot from you and wanted to return the favor. 😁 Edit - I wrote this during the opening part of the video and it's seems you corrected yourself later in the video, but yeah man, just wanted to throw that out there. That would be one hell of a contactor if it could handle 40 ft/lbs without busting the lugs clean off. 🤣🤣
^^^ Congrats, you won the one most important comment award, that probably won't get read. What was it, a mission to the moon when units were messed up like this? "WHOOP, I OVERTORQUED AND RUINED THE CONTACTOR." 😆
Have you, or others used wire ferrules for the stranded leads? Seems to me like it would help with keeping wiring tidy and safe..
Where did you get the torque driver?
Truetechtools.com just search wiha torque driver and if you purchase anything use my offer code bigpicture to get an 8% discount on checkout
I’ve suggested to you before, but you probably forgot lol. Get the Klein cutter/crimper tool from Home Depot and grind of the cutter and insulated end of the jaws. Then you only have the uninsulated crimper left.
When I worked for Taylor we would have 8 ice cream machines hooked to a glycol tower on the roof. It’s a closed loop system that would eliminate any condensers from being outdoors. I never installed one so I don’t know the brand. Maybe something to look into for a new install location.
You said the return line was "cold as heck" because it was still bringing down the box. Is this because it had been running continuously for longer than usual? Timestamp around 7:00
Hi Chris would a phase monitor on the out put side of the compressor contactor or a overload for a motor starter help to protect the
Would Emerson Sureswitches help in environments like these? Emersons spec sheet on their website says they are rated to 40A
They don't make them in three phase as of yet, only single phase
I don't know about a 3 phase contactor but 3 Panasonic AQJ412V SSRs mounted on one heatsink might work. They're rated for 25A@260VAC.
A suitably rated SSR or even a large triac would be nice, as it would have no moving parts to get fouled up with sand! That being said, t's important to consider that the compressor will start up at locked rotor amperage for 0.5-1 second, which is quite a lot longer than the 1-cycle peak repetitive surge current rating on the SSR. The large inductive back-EMF when the compressor is switched off could also be an issue for the SSR, but the triac should be OK due to remaining latched until the current has fully decayed.
Two other considerations: the efficiency of SSRs are much less than contactors due to the voltage drop, so you have to consider the dissipation especially if you put it in a NEMA 4ish enclosure. Also that the frequent failure mode is on, but in this situation it probably isn't the worst thing in the world. (lastly a contactor will survive a short, while an SSR wont, but that should be preventable.) Honestly, I SSRs, but I understand their drawbacks too. They are not a panacea, but in the right place they can be a huge improvement in reliability or at the very least determinacy, since they're rarely half-failed .
You might think about getting a ferrule crimper and the ends to bring the quality of the connections up even more. They make it so you're not having to do quite as many dances to get a properly torqued lug.
I got one from Knipex that has a rotatable crimper for getting into tight spots 97 53 18 is the part number.
I have to wonder if there are any panel gaskets for high debris areas. That way you don't need to seal it up with silicone, and you still get some protection.
There are 30 amp 3 phase solid state relays. I don't know for sure if they are suitable for use in this application but it might be worth looking into. They are between $200 and $250, and may require some additional wiring for some units due to a lack of auxiliary contacts, but they may solve the sand problem.
You are in another level!!! I respect you!!! You are good!!!👍🏼
yes be kind and rewind.
apart from putting the control cabling in a sealed enclosure ( a higher IP rating sealed box) i don't know what else you could do
I love your commentary at the end of each video
Love my Wiha tools,been using them for over 25 years!
Did you torque the bottom left wires? Because you didn't on video, could that be part of the reason the wire melted for the second call?
We use the crimper set from Wirefy at work. We don't do flag connectors though it does have the die for them and we have done quick-disconnects before and it's been pretty reliable. Mind, we don't do HVAC work but it seems pretty good and the price when we got it a couple of years ago was entirely reasonable.
As for the contactor, you could chain multiple single-phase solid-state relays in a pinch by paralleling the control wires, but I don't know how well they'd handle the heat. I agree with the other comments though that an IP6x enclosure would be another option if heating isn't an issue.
try soft thin foam tape stuck inside the cover, so it seals when on/closed or just duct tape around the outside after it's on. maybe leave just the bottom open or a small section of it.
“I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating - and it gets everywhere.” - Anakin Skywalker...
Good video we’re already 110 in phoenix az
What about buying rolls of the window seal tape? I wonder if the foam on those would save the sand from coming in.
Is this out by the salton sea? It’s the only place I’ve seen that does this. Near Death Valley and the Yuma proving grounds too. Kind of all the same desert tho.
Could you use a gasket like a foam gasket to mask the open edges
Personally I'd recommend going to discreet relays for individual phases, since finding single-phase relays of the needed rating is easy and they can usually be paralleled up or just going with the even-more-expensive solution of a solid-state relay. Maybe wrap the edges of the box before closing it in PVC electrical tape to make an impromptu gasket for it that you can self-clearance to fit with a mallet. As for that melty wire, my guess would be that the contactor's been changed so much that wire fatigue got enough strands broken that the resistance got too high and it melted, usually you see that with solid-core wires but I've seen it happen plenty on stranded wires that don't have strain relief - breaks right before the end of the jacket.
i use Cembre crimpers for everything i don't know if you have them in america but they work great, i have a couple that are 15yrs old and are still reliable. Search for Cembre MLL 90
I’ve used weather stripping on the sides to help keep sand and dirt out fyi
hehe, within a few seconds of the video I knew where you where.... and yes LOTS of sand out there.
6:41 Try some quality sponge with double silded tape
You'd need the vacuum cleaners we have at work with 4" hoses. Industrial stuff.
Pros kit flag crimper head is what I got, plus other heads to do 3 standardized colors/sizes, 3 sizes of flag terminals, bare flag terminal heads too. I went a little bit crazy, spent like $120ish myself. 1 handle (wish I had 2) and a bunch of heads.
The handle I got had flag terminal head on it. 902-330
I agree with the idea of gasketed weatherproof enclosures
The easy way around the cover problem put your bead of silicone around the edge of the box one the lid where it meets the box but a smear of grease of some form that will allow the silicone to seal but NOT stick so removal is not a problem a trick i use on rally cars to keep grime out of boxes
What about some foam tape or rubber u channel? That would create a tight seal but still allow you to easily open the cabinet.
Holy crap that's crazy the amount of sand that's on the roof!! Hahaha
Chris, i bought flag crimpers on Amazon and they work well for me. Pro's Kit 902-330 is for insulated flag terminals and Pro's Kit 300-073 is for non-insulated flags.
For the panles that you *can* close. Could you make a sort of gasket with silicone on the panels? So the edge makes a knives edge seal, like on the ships for the watertight doors. Or tape around the edge.
Allso SSR solid state relays. Sorry. But my Norwegian electrician genes makes me say this. Why is there not an IP64 standard for All electrical equipment outside? Minimum spec over here is IP24, and IP44 outside and wet rooms, pluss RCD on all cunsumer circuits.
Can you get/ used pvc electrical enclosures that seal up. We have water pto of one here in australia that should stop sand getting in.
What about using some foam tape on the inside of the cover to create a gasket?
Good video, always weird watching your videos. I live in the are you work (dont know if you let people know where you are located). By the way the sand storms have been freaking crazy lately. Our parking lot had mounds 18 inches tall of sand. Burying planters in the parking lot.
Good video and comments on the Megger usage. I think Copeland also says Scroll compressors have show lower resistance too because the motor is on the bottom and in the oil. Yea, crazy sand...we were driving the Sunday before Memorial day through Cabazon area near your location here, thought the vehicle was going to be sand blasted and blown off the freeway!
How has material costs been? In the deep well submersible pump market they have doubled in cost since 2019
Could you experiment with putting the contractor components inside a Nema 4X enclosure like a PolyCase?
wow what's the state of the condenser coil?
What kind of silicone do you use?
Where did you get the torque screwdriver
enjoyed the vid, hope we dont get many dust storms this year in vegas
Would simple foam weather stripping tape perhaps be enough to help keep some sand out of those bigger units?
I’ve seen hvac survival use a normal crimper with the end cut off to crimp flag terminals
Why don't you run a phase monitor that prevents a 3 phase motor from starting when one or more phases are out?
Saran Wrap works great to cover up open boxes like that from the weather
I had no idea we both work in the same area !! Best of luck this summer man 🙌
Given just how many units there are in sandy regions in the US, I'm surprised that manufacturers don't seal them better where possible.
Manufactures don't want to spend the money
Leaving plugs out of enclosures is a risky thing too, nothing to stop a finger from going in let alone sand. No rules on IP for connection boxes?
@@IanFarquharson2 they're not really in locations accessible by the public, so probably not
How about screens to keep cottonwood off the coils,that would be genious
Screw arc'd on the left side you can see the residue on the terminal.