SUBARU X-MODE vs. LOCKER vs. LSD vs. OPEN
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 พ.ค. 2024
- I'd love to hear what you think in the comments. Here are my thoughts:
If you don't have X-Mode, then you need a rear Torq locker.
If you do have X-Mode, then I don't think that you need a rear locker.
However, I plan to add a rear locker AFTER I gain the
ability to manually control the center clutch.
Newer Subarus should be able to do a version of
the classic "SG Forester center diff lock mod"
More about this in my next video! - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
This is the kind of stuff Jeep people say Subaru’s can’t do. It’s true that dedicated 4 wheel drive with a low range and diff lockers is the best for hard core rock crawling and off-roading. Even without that stuff so long as you have a good AWD system, decent minimum ground clearance, and off-road tires you can go places most people would be afraid to go in their truck or suv.
Exactly right! 😄
Yes it can do it !!!! but for how long, It's a little car and it's not built for that kind of abuse.
It’s not abuse. With a transmission cooler it will do it all day long.
That is just plain stupid. Yes you can race up something until a street car breaks, but why?
Yeah, it’s not a responsible thing to do, but it demonstrates Subaru durability, haha. He did that kinda thing all weekend with zero issues.
Matt H. Like a Boss! I think this channel has surpassed “driving sports tv” for showing the limits of what a Subaru can attain (definitely more entertaining).
Many, many thanks! 😄
I saw the center lcck. but i thought it failed ,after a few drives it burned.
You're supposed to lock it for difficult obstacles only. Can you elaborate on what you're talking about? I don't think anyone has done the center clutch lock mod on a modern Subaru.
@@MatthewHeiskell
I will waite to see your next episode.
Thanks a lot for sharing.
@@MatthewHeiskell
th-cam.com/video/nDAPsX2xHss/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ks3_UM6aCDjKPME1
The Forester Wilderness definitely seemed to have the easiest time. Really impressive all around what Subaru has been able do with limited hardware. Excellent video!
It’s a beast! It had a lot in reserve. The improved gearing makes a huge difference on this kinda stuff.
This channel is extremely good in showing how very capable a Subaru can be with a few modifications! Keep up the great work! Love it!😎🙌🙌
Many thanks! 😄
X-MODE may not be the most powerful off-road system, but it can be implemented at an extremely low cost, and on paved roads, control is automatically canceled above a certain speed, and attitude control can be performed using the brakes. Probably the best system for most people
For the cost ofa new Subaru, Forester or an outback, the Bronco sport badlands is a much better soft roader with locking rear end.
@@LarryRichelli I think each has its advantages and disadvantages. The characteristic of Subaru cars is that they are more similar to ordinary passenger cars. That's both an advantage and a disadvantage. By the way, here in Japan, the Forester costs $20,000.
I freaking love my Subaru !!!
Go SUBARU !!!!!!
Me too! Subaru rocks! 😄
“Hey your mirrors will pop right in, it’s all good. You’ll get four more inches.” 😂😂😂😂😂
The way they cheered makes me laugh every time! 😂
Nice man! Super excited to see what you figure out about the center clutch! Could be a game changer 🤌🏻🤙🏻
Thanks Glenn! It should work just like the classic SG Forester mod. I just need to identify which wire controls the center clutch solenoid. The center clutch is "wet-type" but all clutches wear out eventually, and as that happens, the car become more FWD and less AWD. If we fully lock the center clutch, and it's healthy (zero slip), then we will technically have a 4WD vehicle minus low range. I've seen some SG Foresters with this mod and a rear locker do some incredible things!
DCCD mod from an STI on a FWE? I didn't think it could be done.
I've been REALLY enjoying your mods and look fwd to what's to come!
Thanks! 😄 but that’s not the plan. It’s much easier. All modern Subarus have a center clutch that sends power to the rear. The goal is to gain manual control of the solenoid that controls center clutch pressure. It’s likely just a 12v solenoid controlled with a PWM signal. It should work like the classic SG Forester mod. You give the ECU/TCU a dummy resistor load so it thinks everything is normal, then YOU send 0 volts or 12 volts to the AWD solenoid to fully lock or unlock the center clutch. With that control, and a healthy center clutch, that switch would give you FWD and 4WD.
I don't do a lot of articulation stuff in my outback but i'd bet it would be fun in the snow. I did put a throttle controller in though and it makes a big difference on and off road.
Cool! Get it out there and have fun! 😄
I wouldn’t have believed it until I saw it. Wow. That is impressive all around.
Thanks! They are great vehicles! Still super comfortable, safe, and efficient on-road.
manually locking centre cluch i've been looking into.
i've got the pinout, and the connector is easy to get to. i just need time to investigate properly. i'll send you what i had found so far, and a bit of a top level schematic
main thing i want to see on a scope before i attack wiring, is if its a PWM signal, and if so, what the PWM is at max lockup.
Thanks William! Let's figure this out! Manual control of the center clutch would be awesome! I'd feel way more comfortable running a rear locker. I don't want the center clutch slipping, getting worn out, and making my Subaru FWD, haha.
I can 1000% relate to the person who stuck their arm out at 8:35, I was doing that in my head right before they did it. Apparently I gotta watch more offroading videos😅
Yeah, haha, a bit dangerous. I recently saw a clip of a guy in a 4Runner break his arm doing the same thing.
Spur of the moment decision for sure 😅😅 I know better to do that yet I still did it
Super dangerous indeed. Watched a guy tip over and dragged his arm a bit under vehicle door. wasnt pleasant
I didn't know this was a thing. A guy just told me how he did this in a side by side and almost lost his arm. Huge scars from surgery. Don't hurt till the bone shows!
great video,thanks a lot.
Glad that you enjoyed it! 😄
As i see in my app (Active obd) with locker the computer and the AWD system pass a lot of power to the rear diff. so maybe after installing the locker try to drive in order to etxmine the car then it is not inough try to lock the mid diff as you told.
matthew, I recently installed a Torq Locker on my NA 2.5L Forester '12
I've also been able to do the manual "center diff lock" mod on my fozzy. However, I do not have X-mode because its a 2012.
(I also have a 2" FlatOut suspension lift)
Do you think I would be able to get through this terrain? I've always wanted to try something like this but a super terrified, lol
Oh yeah, for sure! You would have likely made it look the easiest too! Get out there and explore some trails. Where are you at? I can likely recommend some good trails near you. Oh! You’d want to disconnect or delete your sway bars for terrain like this. But that wouldn’t be completely necessary with your center clutch lock mod and rear locker.
Awesome video. What are the common component failures that you guys see on the newer gen (~‘15+) Subies when you’re wheeling on trails this difficult?
If you limit your lift to +2” then the CV axles live just as long as normal. The only real issue is over heating the CVT. Adding a Scan Gauge will let you monitor the temp. The wilderness models come with CVT coolers and it’s easy and affordable to add one to any other Subaru. I made a video about it. I’ve been wheeling my 2019 hard for 5 years and never had an issue.
@@MatthewHeiskell Right on. Thanks man! Do you ever see Ascents out on the trail? I’m on my 5th WRX, currently in a ‘22, and I love the FA24 engine. 2019 Ascents are so cheap right now. I’m very tempted to pick one up and give it the battle wagon treatment.
I’ve never seen one out on a trail. They had transmission issues. The early ones. I wouldn’t recommend it.
Awesome video! Who built the front bumper on the White Forester? And who makes those lights on the back of the roof rack on the Blue Crosstrek?
Thanks! I made that bumper myself! I'm making them for other people now, but you've got to be able to visit Albuquerque for a weekend. Not sure about those lights, likely Diode Dynamics, but you can message he owner on IG. She's slt_trek
@@MatthewHeiskell Thanks so much for the reply! Well damn. I live in WA St. Badass bumper though!
I made a build video for the first aluminum one. Here it is: th-cam.com/video/cwDUctWmek4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=-USXr34PqA7DmiY9
If you’re referring to the lights in the steel bumper, they’re from Nilight. They came with the bumper and aren’t wired and probably never will get wired.
Nice to see how well the torq locker works in comparison.
Yeah, pretty similar. The torq locker acts sooner and stays locked. X-Mode works well but you need experience using it. Most people make the mistake of letting off the gas when they hear the weird ABS noises from X-Mode.
Would love Subaru to bring out a ''Jimny'' version as well also a new Brat!
Are these your daily drivers? I have a '16 forester, no x mode, and I take it for a little offroad every once in a while but I don't want to break shit because I depend on it. Thinking about lifting it, would prefer a suspension lift, but I don't think there are any that aren't $3k.
Yeah, these are our daily drivers. A cheap 2” strut top spacer lift, delete both swaybars, add some skid plates, all terrain tires when the current ones wear out and that thing will take you places. Cool places with epic views.
You're selling your bumper/skid plate. What's this link to your site again? Forestermods or something?
Yeah, I’m selling them now. It’s a one piece aluminum TIG welded winch bumper with integrated engine skid. The impact surfaces are 1/4”, much stronger than the 3/16” skids that you can buy. My site is offroadforestermods.com but it’s just for information sharing. If you’re interested in buying one, it’s easiest to message me on IG at sk_foz
Why does no-one do the sti R180 rear diff with an arb locker, then best of both worlds, locker in rough, open on road, plus stronger rear gears.
What's with the purple lights?
That's Milton's signature look. The colors are just a backlight. They are bright white when he turns them on for real.
These lifter cars are running extreme angles on the half shafts, I would have thought that would be a major problem? Do you carry extra CV joints to make repairs in the wild?
Most of us are lifted only 2 inches. That's the safe limit where CV axles still live a full/normal life. Milton, the Crosstrek with the purple lights runs quite a bit more, and he carries a spare front CV axle and uses it pretty frequently. He doesn't need a spare rear CV axle because rear subframe spacer alleviate a lot of the excessive angle.
I own the first car, the sg foz. I personally don't carry a spare, but many people I know do. I am lifted 2in, and haven't had any major issues 🤙
We're all the cars running without swaybars?
@@gavinbaker100 I believe so
SG на бездорожье выглядит самым гармоничным чисто внешне 😂
The SG Forester is awesome! 😄
It is my understanding that when X-mode is engaged, the vehicle attempts to lock the center differential by having the clutches engage as hard as possible and uses brake vectoring to attempt to gain traction with the open differentials. For this reason, I think that a rear locker would be beneficial while using X-mode due to it positively locking the rear diff and attempting to lock the center diff at the same time giving the rear even more bias than without X-mode.
You've got the right idea. X-mode is a more advanced form of traction control, but it does not fully lock the center clutch. Since you already have X-Mode, I don't think that you should install a rear locker until you can manually control the center clutch (and lock it). The problem with a locker is that the rear axle will ALWAYS have traction, and if the center clutch is slipping, it will wear out eventually. We need to be able to flip a switch and get the center clutch to lock to prevent premature wear. This combo though, a fully locked center clutch and a rear locker, will be absolutely incredible, especially with the gearing advantage of the FW. My next video will cover this topic in more detail.
I have a Torqlocker and with x mode it helps a lot . i had only x mode om my Sport 2021 it wasnt inough . the locker from my perspective is a big game changer. about wearing the centerr diff i do not know.
There is Forester SG with planetary gearbox that has the option of mechanical tail gearbox. i do not familiar with any option to lock center diff with CVT gearbox. i will be happy to learn something new.
To be pricise the center diff is not claches its several plates that shift the power from front to rear wheels the traction control acts by the abs and tje brake system,the x mode works on several parameters to make it faster with more force,
regular x mode act by brake system and second by sending power to 4 wheels for deep snow&dirt.
i think if you"ll install a locker and you will lock center diff some thing will maghit break. this is might break.
Every Subaru with a CVT has a center clutch that sends power to the rear wheels. The plates that you mentioned ARE the clutch plates. The center clutch lock mod that I'm trying to develop will be a switch that lets you manually lock the center clutch. You would only activate this for a difficult off road obstacle. Driving on the pavement with it activated would cause driveline binding and other problems.
@@MatthewHeiskellwhen I developed the first ever rear Subaru diff locker, which was an e-locker, several years ago, I did it in conjunction with a dual range gear box and lockable centre diff. We then began development of a front locker, but decided not to go ahead, at least in public. In my opinion, a centre diff lock is imperative with a rear locker, or at least something substantially better than the standard set up. I’ve tried X mode, plated rear diffs, helical, viscous and open rear diffs and found the set up I developed to be far superior. We also used the far stronger R180 rear diff and rear hubs/axles, rather than the weak R160 rear end that is used by those who use the crude auto locker.
What tires are we on? Thinking of upgrading my OEM stock tires on my 2020 outback for something more rugged and capable on BC backcountry roads. thanks!
245/65R17 is the magic number for tire size! There are online tire size calculator and comparison tools that will help you.
@@MatthewHeiskell why do you say 17" and not 16 or 15? im looking for some new rims and i wasnt even considering 17 on my 2012 forester.
how many CVTs were replaces after the drive?
Haha, ZERO! The key is adding a transmission cooler to prevent overheating. (And a scan gauge to monitor the temp)
Friend, I hate to say this but you obviously know little to nothing about CVT transmissions and are just basing your comment off the ideas and commentary of other uninformed folks on the internet. CVT's don't just suddenly snap because you're applying a lot of stress to the transmission unless you have greatly increased engine torque over factory spec. But that happens in traditional transmissions as well. And, as with traditional transmission the greatest enemy is heat. Overheating one can be an issue but every manufacturer that uses them has overheat protection and it will simply shut the car down before the transmission gets too hot. Honda and Subaru both seem to have the toughest to overheat CVT's and both are designed to handle far more than the cars power train can muster so there's never any actual worry about breaking one. The only worry comes from people who've never owned one and trolls who hate on them because it's popular to do so. But there are countless Honda's, Subaru's and, yes, even Nissan's with the much maligned JATCO CVT that have well over 200,000 miles on them with nary an issue from the CVT.
Guys, I have a question and it would be a massive favour if you could shed some light on this for me.
I'm about to upgrade my 2012 Suzuki Grand Vitara wheels and tyres for offroad but standard wheels range from 16in - 18in.
Some of you guys have 15in wheels which is what I'd love to have. I looked up the 2014 2.5L Outback specs and noticed that standard wheels are either 17in or 18in.
How do you guys make 15in wheels fit so that you can get that sweet sweet sidewall thiccness?! Please share your secrets lol
It mostly just depends on brake caliper clearance. I’m the blue trek and stick rims were 17s, but because my brake calipers were small enough I was able to downsize to 15s. I’ve heard from some newer Outback owners that you can run wheel spacers to help drop to smaller rims too (some have 16s as opposed to 17s)
Awesome video!
Any vehicle in this masterpiece running a VTD center diff?
Thanks! 😄 No VTDs in our group. awdadventure.com/blogs/news/4eat-subaru-center-diff-lock
Awwwssooooommme! All of You Crazies!
WARNING ⚠Plumber's crack @ 1m 33s 🪙
Haha, yeah. I tried to edit the crack out but oh well. 😂
Looks like the Torq Locker is superior to Xmode but only slightly. Mostly because Xmode needs to think first.
It’s awesome that software and hardware are that similar in performance!
I love seeing the progression of Subarus off road. When I first started doing it, it was with ea81s and 13 inch tires. My first time with a group of Subarus at Evans Creek was in 1997, an 85 GL wagon on 185/70/13s. We had no lockers, no LSDs. Lifts came from Australia at first. We figured out how to swap in the LSDs from the RXs and things got easier. Ahh those were the days. Lots of pics and vids. :). th-cam.com/video/ieE9Hb-B_qo/w-d-xo.html
Oh my god that one moment when I go to look and then get pelted in the face with mud! 😂😂 my hat still has mud from that on it
Oh! That's what happened when you stuck your head out, then went back inside, haha.
Tyre and rim size preference?
That depends on the vehicle, but for offroad use you want the smallest wheels that clear the brakes and you want the largest tires that don’t rub.
I keep watching these great off road videos and then realize that there are absolutely no good off road spots anywhere near San Antonio so no use to get an off roader. I have a all wheel drive Ford Lightning but not enough ground clearance to go off road for real.
There’s a trail to your NW called Texas Hill Country Tour. It’s 140 miles of easy trails. Difficulty is only a 2 of 10. Look it up! Your truck would have zero issues.
1:29 Nice CRACK!
That's the other kind of CVT in this video - "Crack View Tease"
@@rodneywk1 😅😅
Purely AWD in action!
Subaru AWD is so good!
ARM INSIDE RIGHT NOW!
Haha. Good times.
“Bad Sierra” haha. Milton and Carey were great hosts and guides on this trip to the PNW. It’s beautiful up there. The way the ocean and coast mix with the mountains is unique.
@@MatthewHeiskell Looks like a great time! Would love to go on another trip.
We need to plan one that’s a bit more centrally located! Just checked, not a lot in the middle of the country. Come out here to visit the mountains of Colorado ago.
Yeahhhh, not one of my proudest moments 😅😅
Wow. I’m impressed. I had no idea a Subaru was capable of this. Grand Cherokee Trailhawks have just as much difficulty on this stuff.
Great cars, great driving. Says a lot about the AWD system and even the ability/durability of the CVT. Impressive.
Many thanks! 😄 There are a lot of CVT haters out there but once you add a transmission cooler, then they can do this kinda stuff all day long. The new wilderness trims come with a transmission cooler AND they have lower/better gearing.
What does the transmission cooler do ?
Good question! A transmission cooler cools the oil that the transmission uses. It keeps the transmission from over heating. It looks like a normal radiator, but transmission oil flow through it.
@@MatthewHeiskell in what type of situations does it come in handy? I have a 19 crosstrek lifted with bfgs and do plenty off off roading and road trips in it. So I’m curious if this item could optimize my vehicle....
if only they made a stock forester with tons of ground clearance and approach angle and more suspension travel. I want a fully indpendent off roader, I dont need to crawl rocks but I want to go up this terrain quickly and easily.
You just need to do a few mods to a Subaru and you’ll have what you want. That’s what we did. 😄
@@MatthewHeiskell do they have vehicle specific kits? And how reliable are they? How big of a deal is it you don't have a true low range gearing? I mean, I m not trying to turn a forester into a wrangler, but I want a forester that can go many places and still be comfortable, practical, and safeish on freeways/ regular streets.
🔥🔥🔥 gang gang nice work
Many thanks! 😄
I always thought the guys on that TFL youtube channel where useless at offroad driving because the subarus they drive seem to struggle on things ive done in my 22 impreza with no lockers, ground clearance or xmode. This videos pretty much confirms my suspicion, these things are plenty enough for the average offroad track
The subaru'syou can see here is not stock.thay are modify.
Yeah, I’m not really a fan of TFL, but I guess that they are trying, haha.
@@AmirSharon I know that but the fact the one without lockers and xmode is doing these massive ruts at all is surprising, tfl has had cars stuck on things so small even a corolla could get through with a bit of speed
the only thing missing from this vid is a 2009/14 model which sits just before XMode was introduced.
Great video overall though.
Thanks! 😄 Good point. That would have been awesome to have too!
@@MatthewHeiskell I only bring this up because that's the model I have. Wanted to be part of the fun 😂
We’d love for you to join us! Where about are you located?
@@MatthewHeiskell i'm far away ... down in Barbados. Here we have a lot of Toyota Hiluxes and Suzuki Jimnys. I went with a 2009 Forester about 2 years ago after a long time wheeling Suzukis cause I needed something more comfie and practical. Wish I did it sooner.
Next time i'm on the west coast of the USA i'll see where you guys are at since I have Sequoia National Park on my bucket list.
But what exactly is "X-Mode"? It's just a marketing term for different computer controlled drive modes like most 4WD or AWD systems offer that provides minimal adjustments to throttle, transmission and slip braking.
It definitely not just a marketing term. It’s a way to use the car’s ABS system to control the open diffs. Toyota has the same thing, they call it A-Trac for active traction control. Jeep calls it BLD. It makes a HUGE difference if you don’t have mechanical diff lockers.
@@MatthewHeiskell Right, like I said, it's just Subaru's term for it's drive modes which rely on slip braking.
I've always wondered why Subaru hasn't been a little more generous with the LSD option.
Subaru used to do rear LSDs pretty frequently, but X-mode out performs that because it works on the front too. And it’s basically free. Just software, no extra hardware.
@@MatthewHeiskell Subaru rarely did LSDs, only like STI and a few WRXs and maybe a Turbo Forester model. And yes, slip braking is the cheap approach, that, once again, most makers use. LSD is possible front and rear and promotes forward progress better than braking. Honda uses a front LSD on the Civic Si model to quell torque steer and promote cornering. I've seen YT videos showing the RAV4 TRD Pro model with a dual-clutch rear LSD react quicker to lack of traction than the Forester Wilderness.
The delay for X-Mode to work it fine with me. You need to learn how to use it, learn to give it time to think and problem solve. Learn to ignore the weird ABS noises. Most people let off the gas before it can really work. It’s simple and very effective once you learn some tricks and get some first hand experience behind the wheel.
Can't wait to take the wifes 2019 Ascent offroad and show her X mode.
Haha, do it! 😄
CVT?
Yup! All of them except the blue forester have CVTs!
Cool video! I might buy a Subaru instead of a Toy. Lmao.!
Go for it!
Dang missing all the fun
Join us next time! Where you at?
@MatthewHeiskell perris California/ southern California but I don't mind traveling and camping
Cool! We will plan a more public meet up and trail ride soon.
все не понятно . все они заехали ,кроме SG . он только ходом может
Thank you! 😄
The dude's butt crack was a bit of a distraction from the first car.
Haha yeah I did my best to edit that out 😅
CVT spoils the off road ability of the Subaru. I would never buy one. The Bronco Sport is the new king of soft roaders! It is hard to believe that one can negate the bad effects of the CVT by the myth of locking the center dif. I would have to see this to believe it. I had a Forester with the CVT and could not stand it off road.
The limitations of the CVT depend on the model. For the Forester, the newer wilderness trim has a 26% better crawl ratio of 16.7, much closer to the Bronco Sport’s 18. But the forester that you had, likely a 2019+ non-wilderness has a crawl ratio of only 13.3
@@MatthewHeiskell Thanks for the response. When the new models with this wilderness trim become 3 or 4 years old then they will be a deal but the new price of them is close to the price of a new 4 Runner.
Haha. They are not that bad. I was out the door, tax tag and title for $35,500 with my 2024 Forester Wilderness.
So, let me get this straight. The CVT spoils the off road ability of the Subaru and you would "never buy one." However, you also say you had a Forester with the CVT and could not stand it off road. In order to have had a Forester with a CVT you would have had to buy one which you said you would never do, correct? Quite the contradiction there my friend. Maybe you haven't ever even driven a Subaru. Or a Bronco Sport for that matter. Maybe you're just a Ford fanboy and a Subaru troll? Who knows but if you were in court you'd have some explaining to do and your credibility would be trashed.
@davep2945 perhaps it was a company vehicle?
Keep the cute utes on the pavement! 😂
But why would we do that if they can do stuff like this? 😁