While your games have gone down in power level a bit the quality of your videos have gone up in power level substantially. Having Amber join the conversation adds a lot of nuance and depth and she should definitely show up more.
I totally agree. These guys are awesome, BUT sometimes out of touch with the struggles for some of us who are more casual. I also love the realization that the game is just plain more fun when decks are doing stuff they are designed to do and going to round 15+… combo’s are great, but man, let’s play a game out and all cast some six, seven, eight mana spells!
I recently cut all tutors that don’t have a catch or under 3 cmc (except scheming symmetry), Cyclonic, Rhystic Study, Carpet of Flowers, Mana Crypt, etc from all decks. Feels so great. Feels like drawing one card less often swings the entire game in my favor.
I wish my friends would follow this train of thought. I've been trying to rally for this but they won't bite. One plays almost all those in all their 5 color decks. So disheartening when the game is about even then they play a tutor and you know that is the end of that.
Im glad we finally have a channel dedicating videos to keeping edh casual. Too many ppl trying to turn edh into cedh and inherently pushing power by not governing their own deck building. I even made a mono red pauper edh deck as theres no fast mana and only commons for the 99; plus only uncommons for the commander (i chose storm kiln artist).
i wouldn't say they're trying to turn it into cedh. that's mostly the kids who netdeck an absurdly annoying/high power deck and bring it to a very casual table and absolutely ruin the experience for everyone else. anyone who claims to be a real cedh player doesn't do stuff like that, they stay in their own power pods. there's a lot of misconceptions about cedh and its players, and it's kind of sad that the people who bring a cedh deck to casual tables taint the reputation of it. it all honestly comes down to rule 0, make sure your group is okay with playing a certain deck/playstyle, and if they aren't, then just don't do it. a lot of people ignore rule 0 conversations and that can really dampen the experience a bit
Fun fact there are actually common legendary creatures but they are mostly vanilla and they come from the legends set with nice artwork and flavor text
I also love how you guys talk about being able to untap with stuff! One of the biggest things lost at higher power is the inability to play cards that don't work immediately, not letting you play some of the most fun effects in magic.
After seeing many... many MTG EDH channels contanining deck techs and gameplay... I've come to the conclusion that, following the power escale (1-2 poop, 3-4 casual, 5-6 focused, 7-8 optimized, 9-10 competitive)..., the most fun games and interactions occur on the focused tier with light optimization (6-7) budget $100-$200 that could include 1 combo just in case U end up in front of more powerful decks or the game has taken 1+ hour ... It makes the players worry about sinergy, encourages combat and interactions beyond counterspells, and the decks can still do powerful stuff ... I've also learned a lot from U guys, thank U so much for the great content
Some people are only interested in winning and their own fun. When you care about other people's enjoyment as well it's fine to lower your power level. I have a "sideboard" to swap out power vs casual decks on the fly
I tried the swaping to a less powerfull version with my Shatterfang deck. Normaly its an aristocrats deck, but after boarding 25 cards its wins over combat. Annoyingly the other players (including the ones who complained!) do not really care that i play the weaker version and still often play their more powerful decks (Korvold for example) against me. Told me to not care to much for their complaining!
I'm currently building a Volo deck and was thinking of doing the same thing. I have Craterhoof in there already, but I also got End-Raze Forerunners and thought it would be nice to swap those if I end up playing in a lower power meta. I imagine it would also make your deck more enjoyable over time, since each game can feel super different when you swap out certain cards.
In my experience the most fun games I’ve been in has been when decks are around the same power level. I’ve play plenty of games when someone’s deck has fetchlands, mana crypt, crazy draw etc and just runs away with the game.
@@chexmix0101 yeah unless everyone is playing on that level, I put those cards aside for something else. I own them and so I can play with them but I would not feel good about beating somebody on turn five or six when they have literally done nothing to impact the game yet
I tend to build decks on the higher power level, though not cEDH level. But I think combo wins are the most fun for everyone. It literally ends everything and you get to shuffle up and play a new game, rather than having 1 person sitting around waiting, but here is where I think deckbuilding/priority is a big deal. If people aren't running much instant speed interaction, you will lose to combos every time, and I think instant speed interaction wars is one of the most fun parts of magic.
I am always amazed at how well both of you articulate your points but more than that how you think the game. Your power level change and the shift in insight it has given you has made an already excellent channel even better.
My biggest problem with lower-powered metas is the massive advantage green gets. When combat is king, the biggest, stompiest boys are the best, which will always mean green. Add the fact that green is the best for ramping AND generating creature-based-value and it’s an unbelievable headstart before games even get going.
I think this is a good call. My play group did this last year-ish when we started playing close to cEDH level. Now we all have more varied decks and strategies. Definitely think power level 5-7 is the sweet spot for commander, and because it's a casual format you have the opportunity to not play at the absolute top power level which is more fun imo
There is no such thing as power level seven at this point. A "seven" is either a jank pile of John Jackoff Jingleheimer Smith's favorite cards, or a cEDH deck with a
Ive always been at pretty much this exact power level. Ive never been one to play infinite combos and in the past year I've cut most tutors from my decks. I'm also heavily considering cutting sol ring from most of my decks because of what you guy's have said about your experience doing so. Because i prefer a lower/mid power level i was almost turned off by your channel in the beginning. I quickly realized that even though in the beginning you we're giving advice for a more powerful meta, as long as i took that into account while listening there was still so much i could learn from watching your channel. I've now been watching you guy's for about two years and i don't think I've missed a single episode since you started doing daily content. I love you guys as much as i can without making you uncomfortable, and I'm so excited for more content specifically geared to a mid-power meta!
i've been playing edh since Shards of Alara. a few years ago there i started noticing i wasn't having that much fun at my lgs because i always ended up being archenemy. it wasn't because of anything with threat assessment but purely based on "your deck is worth more than mine". i live in a college town that rotates the roaster of players every year, each year they're getting more priced out of cards that i've owned for years. i started taking out the "good" cards out of most decks and brought my decks power leve down to match theirs. it was a win win for all of us. sure, i still own all the powerful cards that spiked in price but i use them so infrequently now.
Absolutely agree that curbing the power in your deck is way more fun. I’ve been the guy with two Cradles sitting in my binder and have never sleeved or proxied them for a long time. Honestly Cyc Rift is probably my biggest groaner. The ultimate “nothing that happened before this turn matters” card imo.
not to speak for anyone else, but it gives it almost a... I want to say a diamond in the rough feel to deckbuilding now? You lower the overall cost of the decks you build substantially, which allows you to spend more on big janky cards that would usually break the bank. For example, in building my Kels, Fight Fixer artifact deck, the cost was substantially lowered to the point i had enough money left over to splurge on a wicked Spellskite judge promo, and it always gets a couple "nice" remarks when i play it out. Not a game ender, but it lets you bling out your decks in cool unimportant ways more.
A lower power level allows for more unique decks which translates into more personal expression. That is what I enjoy. Seeing how someone takes a deck differently than the way I have built it and watching it win is incredibly compelling. I build more decks an in a lower power meta and building decks is a huge part of Magic. Which came first, wheels or doors?
How do you feel your typical deck techs and precon upgrades align with this new power level and philosophy? I'd love a video or series that had some swaps for previous deck videos to bring them more in line with this new power level.
Love you guys, been playing for almost 30 years now. These days strictly EDH, and strictly in the 5-7 power range. My playgroup agrees it's just more fun. 1-2 hour games are fine, because most of the time each player gets to 'do the thing' that their deck does and that feels good. We play to win, but we have a saying, "Play a deck that's fun to lose in".
You guys are so right about impact tremors etc. Stacking DoTs can be hilariously satisfying. Just put together my 32nd commander deck, I try to maintain about three tiers casual/strong/disrespectful lol Disrespectful decks are Kess, Gitrog, niv5c, and veyran
I do the same, i have casual, strong, spicy and cedh. Don't get to play spicy stax very often, strong has combos and alt wincons, works pretty well for sitting at random pods.
@@egoish6762 I'm glad someone else does this, one thing I experiment with is having strong combos but less support for the combo so it adds a certain type of anticipation that is fun af. And I feel your pain about your stax deck,my kess wheel deck doesn't get much play time lol
I find this lowering of y'alls power level exciting! I feel, like described in this here video, you're describing some of the woes and excitement of the pod I am apart of! Very little Sol Rings/staples, too many board wipes, 3hr games and combat or ping damage focus. Look forward to the continued videos with this in mind going forward! Although we dislike our games being so friggin long so maybe a video to help speed up more casual games could be beneficial. TO THE CALENDAR IT GOES! :) Much love!
Our playgroup in SF usually plays 5-8 power level. We have an option to play a version that we call No TICKETS … it stands for no tutors, infinite combos, extra turns or salt. We don’t always play with this stipulation but it helps keep the games to more battle cruiser meta which can be fun. Great episode once again.
Another big reason why lower powered games are awesome in my opinion is because you actually get access to more cards and strategies to use. Tribes are a big one here in higher powered metas only the best tribes (like Elves and Zombies) are viable and the ones with not so much support like shamans don't really see play. Also you can build rather janky decks, you get access to more commanders to use and you don't have to worry about every card being super efficient (similar to the Mirrari's wake). Personally I love to use underwhelming commanders like Linden, Steadfast Queen and she just doesn't cut it if you are playing on a power 9 table but she is a force to be reckon with on something like power 6.
Enchantments are great when there are 4 or 5 in play and most of them are really good because it forces decision making/ threat assessment - and sometimes yours gets bypassed
We started using an internal banlist in our playgroup to bring down powerlevel in some of our games (not using it all the time). It's a pretty drastic approach and we ended up banning over 150 cards, but surprisingly it worked quite well. We made bans targeting: - Fast mana (Almost all rocks that generate mana the turn they're played, we also hit green ramp because green just became too good after banning mana rocks that non green decks were relying on) - Tutors (This leads to games feeling much more diverse because people don't end up tutoring the same stuff every time) - Specific combos & wincons (nobody liked losing to Expropriate-type cards, so we just banned them. We also banned a lot of cards that were part of 2 card combos, which makes combo wins very rare and if they do happen, they generally require a lot of mana or setup to pull off) - Value engines (Some cards just take over the game when they stay unanswered for too long, or they end up just doing too much and facilitating critical mass combos, so we banned them. Examples are Yawgmoth, Skullclamp or Seedborn Muse) - Many free spells (We didn't like the play patterns that cards like Fierce Guardianship created, so we banned them. If you tap out, opponents should be safe to exploit it) - Bad Stax (Some Stax effects just needlessly slow the game down so they were banned. Nobody is sad about Winter Orb or Drannith Magistrate not being in games. The stax that remains is more limited stuff like Blind Obedience, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Linvala etc.) - Staples (Some cards just end up in every deck that can reasonably fit them. Banning these all-stars brought forth some really creative solutions to replace them and has honestly been a mostly positive influence. Examples include Lightning Greaves, Ashnod's Altar, Cyclonic Rift, Jeska's Will as well as the 10 Fetchlands and 10 OG duals) The changes were so big that almost none of our decks remained unaffected, but the more casual archetypes generally lost far fewer cards. In our low power meta we observe pretty much what you described - lifepoints matter more, creatures matter more, games slow down, new cards see play that we've never even considered before (Disrupt Decorum is a good example, that card does serious work now). It's a very different play experience and while I enjoy both high and low power decks, my opponents have been quite vocal that they're glad to see me play less OTK decks which has also made it more fun for me.
As someone who has played at both higher and lower levels of EDH I definitely prefer things being on the higher side. Not to CEDH levels, but I tend to loathe lower level EDH games because they simply drag on way too long in my experience. I don't want to play a game that goes on for 3+ hours because a board wipe is played every time a player tries to get ahead on the board and then everyone has to start back from scratch. I also don't want to play games where people win from Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation as a common win condition. I generally want a game to last like 1-2 hours where there's still interaction and where the person that won the game did so by playing their deck well and outplaying the other players at the table to get to their win condition.
This great content. This is very similar to how our play group plays commander. Wins are based on combat, no combos at all. Our decks range from 5ish to 8. We allow only one board wipe per deck, but play tutors and have some power level 8-9 cards in our decks. All of our decks have a lot of interaction, in counters, removal or whatever. It is very fun, but some games are a little too long. We try play 3 games in a 4 to 5 hour span. Some days it is impossible, but we try. I just want to thank you guys for going in depth on this type of play.
I just started commander by building a mono white angel tribal deck played my first game last week and pretfy much every point you're talking about here is hitting home. One player had a combo based around a ton of pings with ETB effects, perpheros etc. Which meant I ended up winning because my Angels could heal me. Playing white i had answers to enchantments so it felt like I could really contribute to the table by taking out some core threats that no one else could touch. There was one player who got pretty shafted, she couldn't get anything to really stick on board, but she was still able to massively contribute to the game with some good removal on the leaders stuff. And of course, the game went for 2 hours. But it was fun and a lot of back and forth the whole time.
Started watching you guys a few months ago really enjoying your content I typically play CEDH so it's nice to have the perspective from a casual source. I LOVE ALL THE WRESTLING SHIRTS and I will probably comment on them frequently. With that in mind Love the FTR shirt
The difference I have noticed in top tier "Casual" vs cEDH is that in casual you interact with the board more. In cEDH you interact with the stack more.
I think most people tend to fall down to this power level you’re describing. Everyone wants a game to last long enough to feel like they had an impact. Combos and fast mana give you less of a chance to impact the result, huge battle cruiser no interaction give you a long drawn out “no-feels bads” game. Somewhere in the middle where people can explore different styles, gets to “do their thing”, and someone ends it in a reasonable timeframe is best.
This is definitely true! The power level in my group also just feels to high. We are in a place right now where everyone proxies their best cards for each of their decks. There is just no variance cause no matter the deck you can always expect the same top tier cards. As others have said here already this just leads to less interesting interactions and people getting priced out at the table if they lack the pricey cards. I myself am also for less tutors in my decks which would be definitely to much to ask of my guys...
Often times if you just say "Hay guys can we bring the power down a lot?" and they will say sure. Hell when i played a lot before covid eventually people brought their decks down to my level they seen i was using the same low power deck over and over and i refused to use decks i have not myself built since i don't understand the strategies that went into them but they eventually just started playing lower power decks just to match me. Though it all starts with you opening up the dialog hell i even got people to play as if there was a possibility storm at the start of the game every time we played a spell we follow the effect of possibility storm but the dialog again starts with you suggesting it like it needs to be brought to their attention as they may not realize it TLDR just talk often times you can get them to lower the power level
In the middle of the same train of thought of purposedly lowering our playgroup's power level, we decided to try building Pioneer Brawl decks. The card pool is large enough to be a cool deckbuilding challenge with a lot of nuances, but most of the high power EDH staples aren't inherently in the format, so we don't really need to have a "Rule 0" argument about where the power level is supposed to be, just because the decks are inherently built with a smaller card pool.
My playgroup actually just did this and it's made the game WAY more fun and interactive. We added the extra challenge of No Tutors (outside ramp) and just a few changes to deckbuilding really makes the game feel fresh again. Really resonated with the whole "Sol Ring/Mana Crypt means one person runs away with the game".
This video reminded me of the early games of my playground. That time you attacked early the life gain deck first because combat damage was important. We were terrible deck builders, and we loved it!
I definitely remember when my playgroup started playing commander and we were also lower power/combat matters, boardwipes were OP and I hated it. I would avoid playing them myself because of that. So I started playing decks where the whole idea was to bounce back quickly or avoid boardwipes. It became quite the arms race.
I'm exactly the same way. I want to be able to recover from boardwipes or mass removal. I made it so all my decks had a way to do this but now I win 90% of the games I play as a result. In my group I'm the archenemy so I risk being targeted out of the game regardless of board presence. This evolved my decks to be what they are today because now I have to be able to win 1v3. It has made games not as fun and I keep trying to explain it to them but they insist on playing this way. It's to the point where they put bad cards in their deck specifically to hate on my decks and then do nothing else afterwards. Be careful with how far you push this arms race of yours because I don't want this happening to you too.
My favorite mono white low power “combo” is casting farewell calling all 4 modes and then flashing in guardian of faith to phase your creatures out lol.
I went through a similar process a little over a year ago and I started enjoying my favorite parts of commander more, realizing that with a lower power level I could do more things
I'm very happy you are enjoying lower power level. I'm enjoying also more and more your videos! Thank you! I prefer lower power level like the one you are describing, my only problem with that it's the duration of a match, and moreover the fact that everyone take an eternity to win because everyone just want to make value...
Its interesting seeing the two sides of the coin with both Joe and Beezy touting the pros and cons of leaning high or low. Ultimately I think it comes down to agency. Everyone at the table wants to feel like they had a hand in the outcome. Also re Joe's comments about Aura of Silence I think some hate pieces are worth running. Full stax to make people miserable with no other outcome is truly terrible, but often just sprinkling a variety of board control into a build helps stop the players at your table that just go for gold and win quick if they're left alone. In the current age of edh its a valuable tool to have at your disposal in my opinion.
I removed all mana positive rocks, all tutors and all infinites/extra turn cards from every deck I have. The result was I found my decklists became way more diverse and I enjoy commander way more. You can do some crazy stuff and when it happens naturally it feels way more rewarding
These are all great insights and just a good conversation. My group is mostly mid power level (upgraded precons) and some tribal decks built from scratch. I've found that I upgraded a couple decks a little above my groups power level and it really makes the games not fun for the table so those get shelved and it gives me an opportunity to build new ones Although my brother in law came to visit this week and brought a child of alara gates deck and after his first combo win I pulled out my yuriko (non cedh) ninja tribal deck and was able to just counterspell his commander and drain him faster than he could combo. Helped that the rest of the table targeted him first knowing what his commander does after the first game. Love the suggestions of taking sol ring out. I got sol ring turn 1, skyshroid claim turn 2, klauth turn 3 into selvala, heart of the wilds with my tiamat deck last weekend. It was just way too much to fast just because of the sol ring and I didn't even have the signet play on to complete the ramp. Turn 4 was dragon tempest, animist's awakening, dragonstorm into lathliss dragon queen, terror of the peaks, scourge of valkas to take the first player out. Turn 5 killed the other players
Love it! This is the exact kind of deck building I enjoy - except that I love Sol Ring for old time's sake.. so far.. might also change my mind later, who knows.
I'm happy that you guys shifted to lower power, because content about this is what I prefer to consume. Personally, I've recently found my equilibrium by having 2 playgroups: a very casual one and a cEDH one. I love playing with both as I can get both sides of the "EDH experience" this way :)
Hearing you guys describe it. This is definitely the PL my friends and I have been playing at. Our decks rarely ever combo off. Even when they do combo off. It almost always involves getting so many creatures that it overwhelms everyone or it's an infinite mana type thing. Like for instance I upgraded the new vehicle precon with the intruder alarm combo. Beside the sprinkle of a rhystic study here or a cyclonic rift there. About 95% of our games rely on combat to win. I feel like it's just the right level to enjoy EDH to its fullest. If you want to combo on turn 2 go play any 40-60 card format. EDH is for everything else. :)
I recently built a fun tribal chandra deck using Fire of Kaldesh as the commander. I have some strong cards like blood moon and ruby medallion, but the deck is all about planeswalkers and cards like sulfuric vortex. The deck doesn't always pop off, but when it does man does it feel good. My pod is actually starting to get afraid of her a bit.....lol.
At one point I was playing full-signet jodah and winning off aminatou's augury, jin-gitaxias or conflux fetching saheeli cat. Then about 3 years ago my playgroup agreed to lower the power level, it works really well for us. Max 3 strong ramp cards in deck, no dirty business like cyclonic rift, rhystic studies etc and an overall philosophy of slightly longer powered down games
Sorry, I completely missed what you guys were saying about power level and whatever you were saying. Just, look at that cat. So happy and content. Good kitty.
The comeback aspect of lifegain was something I also realized too! The amount of games where I would be in a great position but a low lifetotal and having to make suboptimal plays (such as removing threats for power and toughness) has made me realize that while not essential like ramp and card draw, having a lifegain out somewhere in your deck can be crucial!!
Also, I love how you stressed incidental lifegain. Too many equate lifegain with say, chaplain 's blessing. But something like blind obedience can really make a difference when it provides a function *and* keeps you alive
The way my playgroup plays is our decks are basically as strong and cutthroat as can be but we dont play combos. Mostly because at least 2 of the 4 people (I am one of them) do not enjoy playing with or against combos, while the others are indifferent. So we don't play with combos, but will do pretty much anything else. Fast mana, super strong staples, whatever goes beyond comboing out.
While we don't play commander, our group has an explicit lower power meta. The goal of our group is to allow for near limitless freedom of deck design in the kitchen table format by having a loose social contract to not play decks at or near competitive levels. Since most meta builds and cards have been scalped and/or scooped up it's pretty easy to tell most of the time which cards are unfair based purely on their price, and so loosely our decks average at about 20 to 30 dollars each, give or take. We're fairly open with our criticisms and worries about certain cards or builds and upon playing we have come across either criticism damning certain archetypes, or personal feel-bads at taking away the fun of the table. We soft rule decks that win before turn 6, and do so consistently, as being more or less banned. It leads to some crazy games like you guys mentioned. Missing a land drop isn't always the end of the world, especially in multiplayer, where if a player is blown out, sure they feel like the game has left them behind for a few turns, but they're likely silently building up either a board presence, or a stack of resources in their hand, or both. Lower power levels are the right way to play the game to us, wouldn't have it any other way.
I've naturally started to play fewer of the high-power staples by removing proxies from some decks. For instance, I have 2 cyclonic rifts, so only allowing it in 2 decks makes me more creative with the other decks. I don't like games to drag out, though, so I will keep some combos or other finishers
I also take this approach. People always scream at me when I say that I'm somewhat glad the powerful staples are expensive because when people don't proxy, it makes them make decisions about including all those cards. That helps decks and games be less homogenized which I think is better.
The worst feeling with low power is playing against someone who doesn’t have a wincon or just doesn’t draw it, but they have plenty of removal or lifegain and you end up sitting there waiting for something to happen.
I definitely prefer 5-6 powerlevel, battlecruiser style decks. I have 2 decks with 1 infinite combo as a win con but they're not the main purpose. I typically play decks that rely on the commander a lot for the most value (ex. Gishath). I don't like base precons, but whatever the next step up is and maybe 1 or 2 above that with some upgrades. I've played at higher levels a few times and don't have as much fun.
My playgroup implemented the 45 minute rule. We set a timer for 45 minutes and if the game is still stalemate we concede. If it's close to finishing it goes to "overtime" we set a 15 minute timer. It makes us play more aggressive and try to pull off the Win.
One thing I've enjoyed doing to let other people have similar experiences is cutting down on the amount of removal and instead playing more flexible, move impactful removal. Not only is it less controlling but it also lets you accomplish more with each
In this meta, instead of knocking out one opponent early, consider vassalizing them instead. Keeps them in the game and more interesting interactions between each player. Politics matter more in lower power level.
This is so much more important then people give credit for. I played a game recently where someone was playing Koma. At the first opportunity he killed me and another player at the same time with Overwhelming Stampede. He couldn't kill the other player because they had stax effects like Ghostly Prison and couldn't afford the mana. He ended up losing the game to the enchantment stax player but had he kept me and the other player in the game longer and only attacked us down to low life totals then he could've gotten more serpents so when he finally found an answer to the stax pieces he could've killed everyone at once. He didn't do this so when he destroyed the stax pieces preventing him from attacking he didn't have enough for lethal and lost a few turns later.
Both these comments ring so loud and true. I've lost count of how many times I've been coming 2nd in a game and been killed by the player coming 3rd or 4th, only for them to realise they had no way of winning without me. Yes I could have killed them, but usually I see the guy with 100+ life and a hectic board state as the threat and dont think I'm gonna be bashed for lethal whilst trying to reign in the King.
Variety is the spice of life. I think it's a good idea to have a wide range of power levels, have a Rule 0 conversation that includes desire power level, and drop decks accordingly.
Low power commander decks, YES. This is my jam. Themes and memes and janky stuff. But! May I suggest you go even lower in power level and also drop life to 20 starting life. And give monarch to the player last in turn order starting at round 1. Games are quick. Life gain and evasion matters even more. Creature based aggro becomes super viable. Attacking someone is very~~ tempting. And even if a player gets eliminated, the wait shouldn’t be too long. Easy to get double or tripple the games in. And also two headed giant (commander or not) is my favorite way to do multiplayer. You win together and lose together and when the game ends, no one is waiting.
The 5-7 change was a good move. However some opponents enjoy a “challenge” … there are cards u can use to counter problematic strats without lowering your own decks power. Additionally, if your opponents commander is hex proof and indestructible, rift seems totally fair.
Doors vs Wheels: if we are going to count toy wheels then we should count shower doors, cabinet doors, kitchen appliance doors (oven, fridge, microwave, dishwasher etc) garage doors etc. My house has 70 doors and it is a standard 3 bedroom house. That being said, sliding doors typically have 2 wheels. I think wheels are more prevalent, but I think it's closer than you'd expect.
I actually won a game where I mana flooded early on a hand where I had kept 4 lands then drew lands on 5 out of first 6 turns. I had one viable card in my hand, a Counterspell. On turn 5 one of my opponents was casting their Commander and would have a real advantage. Someone else was going to counter the Commander being cast and I offered to counter the counter if they left me alone. They agreed and everyone pretty much left me alone since I was no threat on the board. In the end I was over 30 life and the other 3 had killed each other. The last one standing was the one I helped and he was at 4 life left. I had an 8/8 trampled and 5/4 flyer and he couldn’t prevent lethal. (One thing that helped was one card in my opening hand was Dissipation Field and I got it into play. The Zombie player and tokens player didn’t want to swing into that.)
I've had Dissipation Field ruin me, as the owner of it haha waaaay too many etb triggers these days, Dissipation Field is literally saying, 'Hey, attack me with anything you want to cast again!' Cascade and blink decks are just dying for you to cast it. I swapped it out with Energy Field, its fragile but holy hell it puts in work.
Unblockability is really powerful. That is why I play sidar konda/vial smasher 2 power or less creatures. It does run some cards over 2 power. It is fucking dope for combat shit like that.
"...most stuff is on board in a meta like this. Before, some could play a combo out of their hand, and just win out of the blue" This sounds like they were playing cEDH before, where winning the game requires no setup. By contrast, every Commander deck I've played with has stuff on the board, and game-winning combos required one or two turns of setup to pull off.
Liquimetal torque is becoming very significant for me for removing enchantments and extra stuff in red. Much easier to remove stuff by turning them into artifacts first
I know you guys love to rag on Cultivate and Kodama's Reach, but those cards are actually *perfect* for a medium to medium-high power level (6-7/10 within casual Commander territory). They ramp you, fix your mana well, guarantee a follow-up land drop and are 2-for-1s. They're certainly not among your best cards in a deck that's a 7 on the power scale - but they're like the last playable 3-drop that you needed to make your draft deck work, "a fine man" as some old hands would say.
I think that even in a little lower power level keeping to only 2 or 3 board wipes is good, mostly just for the fun. I've played games where there were so many it got wiped every once around the table. Someone would manage to build up a good board and then "oh no we have to wipe". I prefer to answer a board with a board.
I've gotten the philosophy that my decks should be built to handle almost any situation. While my sliver deck is a combat sliver deck, has no tutors (excluding fetch lands), and has not infinite combos. Though I don't win many games with it against my friends there is never a moment where I didn't impact the game heavily. I tend to build my decks in a way where I can either remove my opponents key pieces or stop my opponents from winning the game randomly. Over all I think you should just build your deck with an idea in mind, but also try to craft it to handle as many situations as possible.
Great content. To take this a step further, it sounds like your games could benefit by people playing fewer board wipes. Then you get a lot less resetting the board and very long games.
At lower power levels in my pod I have started adding sub optimal cards that benefit people of my choice as well as me, such as wedding ring, secret rondevous, and victory chimes. While I play to win nothing feels worse than watching that one player who can't get the deck started struggle , (my pod is fairly inexperienced at magic, aside from a couple).
I have 4 EDH decks for most cases that I can play in, A cEDH storm deck, a 7-8 power RG Ramp Raggadragga that doesn't play Caterhoof or tutors but has a ton of card draw. A Mono B Tergrid around the 6ish power level ( probably 7 ish cuz of the commander ) Has no fast mana, tutors, or board wipes. And then a Pre con for new players who don't wanna get blown out of the game. I like the 6-8 power level because of the interaction and a lot of decks and get their game plan online and still not be able to close it out easily. Nothing is worst then sitting down having everyone agree to play creature heavy decks and see one guy pull out a Meren, then proceed to combo off with Protean Hulk on turn 5.
I like the direction of the power 5-7 meta you are talking about. I would like to see a follow-up video, or maybe a link to list, of those cards you find which are “unfun” or inordinately “oppressive” for this meta. I can see how you mention Aura Shards, Cyclonic Rift, Mana Crypt, and so on. I’ve found cards like Imprisoned In The Moon, Song of the Dryads, and Darksteel Mutation, which take out a single commander without sending it back to the command zone, also tend to make someone feel unilaterally bad when their whole game plan is just eliminated (unless they can top-deck an enchantment removal spell). Agent of Treachery and other “steal your stuff” cards are also kind of harsh, but at least there are ways to get your commander back by killing it.
My collection isnt huge but I've gotten to a point the longet running/best 3 are high power 7's/8s..... started 3 new budget decks that give me a lower power level. I've started a 7th and I'm trying to fall in between the two. All of them are fun to pilot and give me options at the dork store.
I've been playing edh consistently for about 6-7 years and I'm like 80% Cherries and 20% Beezy when it comes to this. I like lower power level because I can play obscure or funky cards and have them actually feel good to play and I also like ending games through combat...but I also believe that infinite combos and even MLD have their place in commander. In an effort to spice up my weekly games and combat card homogeneity, I came up with an idea of playing 0 ramp as an interesting thought experiment with my playgroup. That idea sprouted legs and took off running. There was enough interest amongst the folks I play with regularly that I had a lawyer friend in my group help me draft the language for what constitutes as "ramp" so that there are as few questions or corner case scenarios as possible with regards to what cards were off limits and which cards were fair game. With this restriction, all of a sudden 10-15 slots in any given deck just open up and cards like Journeyer's Kite, Mycosynth Wellspring, and freakin' Pilgrim's Eye become serious considerations. Sure, the games took a bit longer because everyone was playing on curve and defaulted to combat based win-cons, but they never felt like a slog because everyone was playing at a good pace. The decks were Anafenza, the Foremost +1/+1 counters matter, Rafiq Voltron, Boros Slivers (don't ask lol), and me on Thassa, Deep Dwelling using Scroll of Fate to manifest fatties from my hand and then blink them with Thassa. Every game I played where I saw three Islands and Pilgrim's Eye or Skittering Surveyor made me excited in a way I hadn't felt in a long while. I didn't win a single game but I had an absolute blast playing with and against these decks.
I love this discussion. I think one common theme with most annoying games is the amount of time taken on a players' turn exceeding how long others are taking on average. Do you think a chess clock would help? Perhaps each player has an alloted amount of "time per game" they can use, and if they hit it, they lose? Obviously it might still be a little long, but you could just take desired game length and divide it by 4.
100% been noticing this the past few months since half of our pod changed (moved away etc.) feels like 1 of the (new) players average turn length is equal to the other 3 players combined most turn cycles - and not necessarily because of a chaotic board state or they're processing triggers etc. not sure if a chess clock would be helpful, but something has got to give ya'know?
@@Rexzoden It would change the meta for sure and punish time-consuming cards (like Cathars' Crusade, value loops, etc.) - there should be some kind of punishment to long drawn out play patterns. This might be a controversial argument, and sure, people play commander to play what they want - but people shouldn't be subjected to one person's solitaire game that resulted in gaining a handful of life/counters and affecting the gamestate hardly at all.
I have a buddy like that. LOL One time it took them 10 minutes to play a land: The playgroup: Play a land already! Slowhand Buddy: I am thinking... Me: Sigh BUT THE WORST WAS: My other CEDH playgroup had a player take 45 minutes to figure out that they couldn't win with their silly Gitrog Delve combo SIGH! :P
Analysis paralysis is thing, I'm sure we've all experienced it at one point or another but 5-10 minutes to play land, mana rock and pass (or similar multiple times a game)? Yikes
Fairly recently my playgroup decided 2 card infinite combos were a bit bullshit as we do a lot of tutoring, so we've hamstrung them to limit how many times they do something per turn for stuff like Exquisite+Vito, or just flat out removed them. Personally I'm enjoying my decks more because now I can pull this stuff out and restore cut cards I enjoy. Fast mana is still okay, but I will say I enjoy building decks without fast mana and staple overload, because I go from making an 80-85 card deck to making a 90-95 card deck.
Depends on how you want to play. As long as everyone is on the same page. Also cEDH is so in depth. My main deck wins with combat damage and stax vs midrange piles or turbo decks etc. You can have this same experience you guys talk about at any power level. It's more about group dynamics then decks imo :)
If you are in black, Sangromancer has been an allstar for incidental life gain. Creatures die all the time. I also had a game where someone wheeled twice in a turn and I gained ~150 life :D
One thing I've learned playing combat matters metas for the past few years is that especially in mono white or boros, cards that protect all your permanents from board wipes definitely get a big power boost as they can double as win-cons. Obviously teferi's protection is bonkers at any level but things like boros charm, unbreakable formation or even rootborn defenses in response to a board wipe that's being cast specifically to deal with your board state have won me many games. One caveat to this is you should probably only include these in lists that will want to be casting these spells during your turn a good percentage of the time rather than just including them for defensive purposes.
I have a Garth deck that's my trade binder deck where everything besides lands are up for trade and the lands get moved to other decks when needed. Honestly, its such a fun deck and I just slot in cool rares I pick up when I draft.
I have a Golos deck that's 7 of each basic, Crystal Quarry, Cascading Cataracts, and like 60 random cards from a 100 rare "value" pack I got on ebay. Decided to keep it postbanning since it's not tying anything up, and it already might've had multiple copies of some cards, so it wasn't high on the legality list anyway :P
I feel like this is the level I typically like to build my decks and play at. It really emphasizes the importance of synergy when you can't just fetch your combo pieces by turn 5.
My obosh deck is a combat matters, and is capable of getting a one shot kill, but then I'm usually out of steam for a few turns. I don't win with it much, but it's still fun. I still play some of the staples, and with a perfect hand would be capable of a turn 4 win, but even that depends on combat with void winnower, neheb, and obosh on the field to give me enough to cast a huge jaya's. Usually just do some damage here and there, and maybe take out one player before I get killed.
I started powering down my decks after seeing that I could win easily in my playgroup or games became Archenemy. I cut tutors for card draw and big staples for synergy pieces and games are way more fun.
While your games have gone down in power level a bit the quality of your videos have gone up in power level substantially. Having Amber join the conversation adds a lot of nuance and depth and she should definitely show up more.
She comes and goes as she pleases we can’t promise anything lol
She's a booper boo 😍
I totally agree. These guys are awesome, BUT sometimes out of touch with the struggles for some of us who are more casual. I also love the realization that the game is just plain more fun when decks are doing stuff they are designed to do and going to round 15+… combo’s are great, but man, let’s play a game out and all cast some six, seven, eight mana spells!
I definitely stick with the "I don't want to play against it, so it's not something I'm going to put into my deck"
I recently cut all tutors that don’t have a catch or under 3 cmc (except scheming symmetry), Cyclonic, Rhystic Study, Carpet of Flowers, Mana Crypt, etc from all decks. Feels so great. Feels like drawing one card less often swings the entire game in my favor.
Same here
Feels like you have more cards in your deck 😊
Now you can play the fun cards
I wish my friends would follow this train of thought. I've been trying to rally for this but they won't bite.
One plays almost all those in all their 5 color decks. So disheartening when the game is about even then they play a tutor and you know that is the end of that.
@@theundest have you ever tried having a "theme week" or a "stipulation week" like budget restrictions? It is a way to reduce the card pool.
Im glad we finally have a channel dedicating videos to keeping edh casual. Too many ppl trying to turn edh into cedh and inherently pushing power by not governing their own deck building. I even made a mono red pauper edh deck as theres no fast mana and only commons for the 99; plus only uncommons for the commander (i chose storm kiln artist).
Storm kiln artist is awesome
i wouldn't say they're trying to turn it into cedh. that's mostly the kids who netdeck an absurdly annoying/high power deck and bring it to a very casual table and absolutely ruin the experience for everyone else. anyone who claims to be a real cedh player doesn't do stuff like that, they stay in their own power pods. there's a lot of misconceptions about cedh and its players, and it's kind of sad that the people who bring a cedh deck to casual tables taint the reputation of it. it all honestly comes down to rule 0, make sure your group is okay with playing a certain deck/playstyle, and if they aren't, then just don't do it. a lot of people ignore rule 0 conversations and that can really dampen the experience a bit
Fun fact there are actually common legendary creatures but they are mostly vanilla and they come from the legends set with nice artwork and flavor text
I also love how you guys talk about being able to untap with stuff! One of the biggest things lost at higher power is the inability to play cards that don't work immediately, not letting you play some of the most fun effects in magic.
After seeing many... many MTG EDH channels contanining deck techs and gameplay... I've come to the conclusion that, following the power escale (1-2 poop, 3-4 casual, 5-6 focused, 7-8 optimized, 9-10 competitive)..., the most fun games and interactions occur on the focused tier with light optimization (6-7) budget $100-$200 that could include 1 combo just in case U end up in front of more powerful decks or the game has taken 1+ hour ... It makes the players worry about sinergy, encourages combat and interactions beyond counterspells, and the decks can still do powerful stuff ...
I've also learned a lot from U guys, thank U so much for the great content
Some people are only interested in winning and their own fun. When you care about other people's enjoyment as well it's fine to lower your power level. I have a "sideboard" to swap out power vs casual decks on the fly
I tried the swaping to a less powerfull version with my Shatterfang deck.
Normaly its an aristocrats deck, but after boarding 25 cards its wins over combat.
Annoyingly the other players (including the ones who complained!) do not really care that i play the weaker version and still often play their more powerful decks (Korvold for example) against me.
Told me to not care to much for their complaining!
I'm currently building a Volo deck and was thinking of doing the same thing. I have Craterhoof in there already, but I also got End-Raze Forerunners and thought it would be nice to swap those if I end up playing in a lower power meta. I imagine it would also make your deck more enjoyable over time, since each game can feel super different when you swap out certain cards.
I do the same thing. I got a section in my case just for combo pieces
In my experience the most fun games I’ve been in has been when decks are around the same power level. I’ve play plenty of games when someone’s deck has fetchlands, mana crypt, crazy draw etc and just runs away with the game.
@@chexmix0101 yeah unless everyone is playing on that level, I put those cards aside for something else. I own them and so I can play with them but I would not feel good about beating somebody on turn five or six when they have literally done nothing to impact the game yet
I tend to build decks on the higher power level, though not cEDH level. But I think combo wins are the most fun for everyone. It literally ends everything and you get to shuffle up and play a new game, rather than having 1 person sitting around waiting, but here is where I think deckbuilding/priority is a big deal. If people aren't running much instant speed interaction, you will lose to combos every time, and I think instant speed interaction wars is one of the most fun parts of magic.
I am always amazed at how well both of you articulate your points but more than that how you think the game. Your power level change and the shift in insight it has given you has made an already excellent channel even better.
My biggest problem with lower-powered metas is the massive advantage green gets. When combat is king, the biggest, stompiest boys are the best, which will always mean green. Add the fact that green is the best for ramping AND generating creature-based-value and it’s an unbelievable headstart before games even get going.
I think this is a good call. My play group did this last year-ish when we started playing close to cEDH level. Now we all have more varied decks and strategies.
Definitely think power level 5-7 is the sweet spot for commander, and because it's a casual format you have the opportunity to not play at the absolute top power level which is more fun imo
Agreed I like playing powered downed decks
There is no such thing as power level seven at this point. A "seven" is either a jank pile of John Jackoff Jingleheimer Smith's favorite cards, or a cEDH deck with a
@@gnomeomontague wdym?
@@adedamolayusuff5995 ignore them they are being hyperbolic
Ive always been at pretty much this exact power level. Ive never been one to play infinite combos and in the past year I've cut most tutors from my decks. I'm also heavily considering cutting sol ring from most of my decks because of what you guy's have said about your experience doing so.
Because i prefer a lower/mid power level i was almost turned off by your channel in the beginning. I quickly realized that even though in the beginning you we're giving advice for a more powerful meta, as long as i took that into account while listening there was still so much i could learn from watching your channel. I've now been watching you guy's for about two years and i don't think I've missed a single episode since you started doing daily content. I love you guys as much as i can without making you uncomfortable, and I'm so excited for more content specifically geared to a mid-power meta!
i've been playing edh since Shards of Alara. a few years ago there i started noticing i wasn't having that much fun at my lgs because i always ended up being archenemy. it wasn't because of anything with threat assessment but purely based on "your deck is worth more than mine". i live in a college town that rotates the roaster of players every year, each year they're getting more priced out of cards that i've owned for years. i started taking out the "good" cards out of most decks and brought my decks power leve down to match theirs. it was a win win for all of us. sure, i still own all the powerful cards that spiked in price but i use them so infrequently now.
Absolutely agree that curbing the power in your deck is way more fun. I’ve been the guy with two Cradles sitting in my binder and have never sleeved or proxied them for a long time. Honestly Cyc Rift is probably my biggest groaner. The ultimate “nothing that happened before this turn matters” card imo.
It really is a back breaker.
You can't even use board protection or pinatas to get around it -.-
@@JackJackrabbit march of the swirling mist can help
@@Acepilot12345 That requires you to play blue
@@JackJackrabbit yes. White has teferis protection. So still options if your creative to save yourself from cyclonic rift.
My favorite video you guys have made. Interesting to hear the viewpoint from players going from a higher power level to a lower.
How did it change your average deck cost? It seems like the lower power lets the cheaper cards shine a little bit more
not to speak for anyone else, but it gives it almost a... I want to say a diamond in the rough feel to deckbuilding now? You lower the overall cost of the decks you build substantially, which allows you to spend more on big janky cards that would usually break the bank. For example, in building my Kels, Fight Fixer artifact deck, the cost was substantially lowered to the point i had enough money left over to splurge on a wicked Spellskite judge promo, and it always gets a couple "nice" remarks when i play it out. Not a game ender, but it lets you bling out your decks in cool unimportant ways more.
A lower power level allows for more unique decks which translates into more personal expression. That is what I enjoy. Seeing how someone takes a deck differently than the way I have built it and watching it win is incredibly compelling. I build more decks an in a lower power meta and building decks is a huge part of Magic. Which came first, wheels or doors?
How do you feel your typical deck techs and precon upgrades align with this new power level and philosophy? I'd love a video or series that had some swaps for previous deck videos to bring them more in line with this new power level.
Love you guys, been playing for almost 30 years now. These days strictly EDH, and strictly in the 5-7 power range. My playgroup agrees it's just more fun. 1-2 hour games are fine, because most of the time each player gets to 'do the thing' that their deck does and that feels good. We play to win, but we have a saying, "Play a deck that's fun to lose in".
You guys are so right about impact tremors etc. Stacking DoTs can be hilariously satisfying.
Just put together my 32nd commander deck, I try to maintain about three tiers casual/strong/disrespectful lol
Disrespectful decks are Kess, Gitrog, niv5c, and veyran
I do the same, i have casual, strong, spicy and cedh. Don't get to play spicy stax very often, strong has combos and alt wincons, works pretty well for sitting at random pods.
@@egoish6762 I'm glad someone else does this, one thing I experiment with is having strong combos but less support for the combo so it adds a certain type of anticipation that is fun af. And I feel your pain about your stax deck,my kess wheel deck doesn't get much play time lol
I find this lowering of y'alls power level exciting! I feel, like described in this here video, you're describing some of the woes and excitement of the pod I am apart of! Very little Sol Rings/staples, too many board wipes, 3hr games and combat or ping damage focus. Look forward to the continued videos with this in mind going forward! Although we dislike our games being so friggin long so maybe a video to help speed up more casual games could be beneficial. TO THE CALENDAR IT GOES! :) Much love!
Very happy you lowered your meta. Really struggled to relate to many of your previous videos since they didn’t sound fun and relaxed. Great work guys
Our playgroup in SF usually plays 5-8 power level. We have an option to play a version that we call No TICKETS … it stands for no tutors, infinite combos, extra turns or salt. We don’t always play with this stipulation but it helps keep the games to more battle cruiser meta which can be fun.
Great episode once again.
Another big reason why lower powered games are awesome in my opinion is because you actually get access to more cards and strategies to use. Tribes are a big one here in higher powered metas only the best tribes (like Elves and Zombies) are viable and the ones with not so much support like shamans don't really see play. Also you can build rather janky decks, you get access to more commanders to use and you don't have to worry about every card being super efficient (similar to the Mirrari's wake). Personally I love to use underwhelming commanders like Linden, Steadfast Queen and she just doesn't cut it if you are playing on a power 9 table but she is a force to be reckon with on something like power 6.
Enchantments are great when there are 4 or 5 in play and most of them are really good because it forces decision making/ threat assessment - and sometimes yours gets bypassed
We started using an internal banlist in our playgroup to bring down powerlevel in some of our games (not using it all the time). It's a pretty drastic approach and we ended up banning over 150 cards, but surprisingly it worked quite well. We made bans targeting:
- Fast mana (Almost all rocks that generate mana the turn they're played, we also hit green ramp because green just became too good after banning mana rocks that non green decks were relying on)
- Tutors (This leads to games feeling much more diverse because people don't end up tutoring the same stuff every time)
- Specific combos & wincons (nobody liked losing to Expropriate-type cards, so we just banned them. We also banned a lot of cards that were part of 2 card combos, which makes combo wins very rare and if they do happen, they generally require a lot of mana or setup to pull off)
- Value engines (Some cards just take over the game when they stay unanswered for too long, or they end up just doing too much and facilitating critical mass combos, so we banned them. Examples are Yawgmoth, Skullclamp or Seedborn Muse)
- Many free spells (We didn't like the play patterns that cards like Fierce Guardianship created, so we banned them. If you tap out, opponents should be safe to exploit it)
- Bad Stax (Some Stax effects just needlessly slow the game down so they were banned. Nobody is sad about Winter Orb or Drannith Magistrate not being in games. The stax that remains is more limited stuff like Blind Obedience, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, Linvala etc.)
- Staples (Some cards just end up in every deck that can reasonably fit them. Banning these all-stars brought forth some really creative solutions to replace them and has honestly been a mostly positive influence. Examples include Lightning Greaves, Ashnod's Altar, Cyclonic Rift, Jeska's Will as well as the 10 Fetchlands and 10 OG duals)
The changes were so big that almost none of our decks remained unaffected, but the more casual archetypes generally lost far fewer cards. In our low power meta we observe pretty much what you described - lifepoints matter more, creatures matter more, games slow down, new cards see play that we've never even considered before (Disrupt Decorum is a good example, that card does serious work now). It's a very different play experience and while I enjoy both high and low power decks, my opponents have been quite vocal that they're glad to see me play less OTK decks which has also made it more fun for me.
Cool discussion. Love how much you all play and understand the game
As someone who has played at both higher and lower levels of EDH I definitely prefer things being on the higher side. Not to CEDH levels, but I tend to loathe lower level EDH games because they simply drag on way too long in my experience. I don't want to play a game that goes on for 3+ hours because a board wipe is played every time a player tries to get ahead on the board and then everyone has to start back from scratch. I also don't want to play games where people win from Thassa's Oracle + Demonic Consultation as a common win condition. I generally want a game to last like 1-2 hours where there's still interaction and where the person that won the game did so by playing their deck well and outplaying the other players at the table to get to their win condition.
I don't know what took me so long to subscribe.
This is definitely one of the commander channels ever.
This great content. This is very similar to how our play group plays commander. Wins are based on combat, no combos at all.
Our decks range from 5ish to 8. We allow only one board wipe per deck, but play tutors and have some power level 8-9 cards in our decks. All of our decks have a lot of interaction, in counters, removal or whatever.
It is very fun, but some games are a little too long. We try play 3 games in a 4 to 5 hour span. Some days it is impossible, but we try.
I just want to thank you guys for going in depth on this type of play.
I just started commander by building a mono white angel tribal deck played my first game last week and pretfy much every point you're talking about here is hitting home. One player had a combo based around a ton of pings with ETB effects, perpheros etc. Which meant I ended up winning because my Angels could heal me. Playing white i had answers to enchantments so it felt like I could really contribute to the table by taking out some core threats that no one else could touch. There was one player who got pretty shafted, she couldn't get anything to really stick on board, but she was still able to massively contribute to the game with some good removal on the leaders stuff. And of course, the game went for 2 hours. But it was fun and a lot of back and forth the whole time.
Started watching you guys a few months ago really enjoying your content I typically play CEDH so it's nice to have the perspective from a casual source. I LOVE ALL THE WRESTLING SHIRTS and I will probably comment on them frequently. With that in mind Love the FTR shirt
The difference I have noticed in top tier "Casual" vs cEDH is that in casual you interact with the board more. In cEDH you interact with the stack more.
In cEDH you interact with solitaire more.
@@goddamnit7230 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 how true
I think most people tend to fall down to this power level you’re describing. Everyone wants a game to last long enough to feel like they had an impact. Combos and fast mana give you less of a chance to impact the result, huge battle cruiser no interaction give you a long drawn out “no-feels bads” game. Somewhere in the middle where people can explore different styles, gets to “do their thing”, and someone ends it in a reasonable timeframe is best.
This is definitely true! The power level in my group also just feels to high. We are in a place right now where everyone proxies their best cards for each of their decks. There is just no variance cause no matter the deck you can always expect the same top tier cards. As others have said here already this just leads to less interesting interactions and people getting priced out at the table if they lack the pricey cards. I myself am also for less tutors in my decks which would be definitely to much to ask of my guys...
I totally agree with you 👍🏼
Often times if you just say "Hay guys can we bring the power down a lot?" and they will say sure. Hell when i played a lot before covid eventually people brought their decks down to my level they seen i was using the same low power deck over and over and i refused to use decks i have not myself built since i don't understand the strategies that went into them but they eventually just started playing lower power decks just to match me. Though it all starts with you opening up the dialog hell i even got people to play as if there was a possibility storm at the start of the game every time we played a spell we follow the effect of possibility storm but the dialog again starts with you suggesting it like it needs to be brought to their attention as they may not realize it
TLDR just talk often times you can get them to lower the power level
In the middle of the same train of thought of purposedly lowering our playgroup's power level, we decided to try building Pioneer Brawl decks.
The card pool is large enough to be a cool deckbuilding challenge with a lot of nuances, but most of the high power EDH staples aren't inherently in the format, so we don't really need to have a "Rule 0" argument about where the power level is supposed to be, just because the decks are inherently built with a smaller card pool.
My playgroup actually just did this and it's made the game WAY more fun and interactive. We added the extra challenge of No Tutors (outside ramp) and just a few changes to deckbuilding really makes the game feel fresh again. Really resonated with the whole "Sol Ring/Mana Crypt means one person runs away with the game".
This video reminded me of the early games of my playground.
That time you attacked early the life gain deck first because combat damage was important.
We were terrible deck builders, and we loved it!
I definitely remember when my playgroup started playing commander and we were also lower power/combat matters, boardwipes were OP and I hated it. I would avoid playing them myself because of that. So I started playing decks where the whole idea was to bounce back quickly or avoid boardwipes. It became quite the arms race.
I'm exactly the same way. I want to be able to recover from boardwipes or mass removal. I made it so all my decks had a way to do this but now I win 90% of the games I play as a result. In my group I'm the archenemy so I risk being targeted out of the game regardless of board presence. This evolved my decks to be what they are today because now I have to be able to win 1v3. It has made games not as fun and I keep trying to explain it to them but they insist on playing this way. It's to the point where they put bad cards in their deck specifically to hate on my decks and then do nothing else afterwards. Be careful with how far you push this arms race of yours because I don't want this happening to you too.
@@SvviftDeath yeah, that doesn't sound so fun. Thankfully this was a long time ago and we eventually struck a good balance.
My favorite mono white low power “combo” is casting farewell calling all 4 modes and then flashing in guardian of faith to phase your creatures out lol.
Yeah, farewell by itself is a really nice card, but with combos like this... pheeew
Running a similar combo in my Brago deck, only using Ghostway in lieu of guardian of faith.
I went through a similar process a little over a year ago and I started enjoying my favorite parts of commander more, realizing that with a lower power level I could do more things
I'm very happy you are enjoying lower power level. I'm enjoying also more and more your videos! Thank you!
I prefer lower power level like the one you are describing, my only problem with that it's the duration of a match, and moreover the fact that everyone take an eternity to win because everyone just want to make value...
Its interesting seeing the two sides of the coin with both Joe and Beezy touting the pros and cons of leaning high or low. Ultimately I think it comes down to agency. Everyone at the table wants to feel like they had a hand in the outcome.
Also re Joe's comments about Aura of Silence I think some hate pieces are worth running. Full stax to make people miserable with no other outcome is truly terrible, but often just sprinkling a variety of board control into a build helps stop the players at your table that just go for gold and win quick if they're left alone. In the current age of edh its a valuable tool to have at your disposal in my opinion.
I removed all mana positive rocks, all tutors and all infinites/extra turn cards from every deck I have.
The result was I found my decklists became way more diverse and I enjoy commander way more.
You can do some crazy stuff and when it happens naturally it feels way more rewarding
These are all great insights and just a good conversation.
My group is mostly mid power level (upgraded precons) and some tribal decks built from scratch. I've found that I upgraded a couple decks a little above my groups power level and it really makes the games not fun for the table so those get shelved and it gives me an opportunity to build new ones
Although my brother in law came to visit this week and brought a child of alara gates deck and after his first combo win I pulled out my yuriko (non cedh) ninja tribal deck and was able to just counterspell his commander and drain him faster than he could combo. Helped that the rest of the table targeted him first knowing what his commander does after the first game.
Love the suggestions of taking sol ring out. I got sol ring turn 1, skyshroid claim turn 2, klauth turn 3 into selvala, heart of the wilds with my tiamat deck last weekend. It was just way too much to fast just because of the sol ring and I didn't even have the signet play on to complete the ramp.
Turn 4 was dragon tempest, animist's awakening, dragonstorm into lathliss dragon queen, terror of the peaks, scourge of valkas to take the first player out. Turn 5 killed the other players
Love it! This is the exact kind of deck building I enjoy - except that I love Sol Ring for old time's sake.. so far.. might also change my mind later, who knows.
I'm happy that you guys shifted to lower power, because content about this is what I prefer to consume.
Personally, I've recently found my equilibrium by having 2 playgroups: a very casual one and a cEDH one. I love playing with both as I can get both sides of the "EDH experience" this way :)
Hearing you guys describe it. This is definitely the PL my friends and I have been playing at. Our decks rarely ever combo off. Even when they do combo off. It almost always involves getting so many creatures that it overwhelms everyone or it's an infinite mana type thing. Like for instance I upgraded the new vehicle precon with the intruder alarm combo. Beside the sprinkle of a rhystic study here or a cyclonic rift there. About 95% of our games rely on combat to win. I feel like it's just the right level to enjoy EDH to its fullest. If you want to combo on turn 2 go play any 40-60 card format. EDH is for everything else. :)
My Ghen deck has all those cards that chip away, including the ones that punish for card draw. it's great.
Also hooray Amber name tag.
I recently built a fun tribal chandra deck using Fire of Kaldesh as the commander. I have some strong cards like blood moon and ruby medallion, but the deck is all about planeswalkers and cards like sulfuric vortex. The deck doesn't always pop off, but when it does man does it feel good. My pod is actually starting to get afraid of her a bit.....lol.
At one point I was playing full-signet jodah and winning off aminatou's augury, jin-gitaxias or conflux fetching saheeli cat. Then about 3 years ago my playgroup agreed to lower the power level, it works really well for us. Max 3 strong ramp cards in deck, no dirty business like cyclonic rift, rhystic studies etc and an overall philosophy of slightly longer powered down games
Sorry, I completely missed what you guys were saying about power level and whatever you were saying. Just, look at that cat. So happy and content. Good kitty.
The comeback aspect of lifegain was something I also realized too! The amount of games where I would be in a great position but a low lifetotal and having to make suboptimal plays (such as removing threats for power and toughness) has made me realize that while not essential like ramp and card draw, having a lifegain out somewhere in your deck can be crucial!!
Also, I love how you stressed incidental lifegain. Too many equate lifegain with say, chaplain 's blessing. But something like blind obedience can really make a difference when it provides a function *and* keeps you alive
The way my playgroup plays is our decks are basically as strong and cutthroat as can be but we dont play combos. Mostly because at least 2 of the 4 people (I am one of them) do not enjoy playing with or against combos, while the others are indifferent. So we don't play with combos, but will do pretty much anything else. Fast mana, super strong staples, whatever goes beyond comboing out.
While we don't play commander, our group has an explicit lower power meta. The goal of our group is to allow for near limitless freedom of deck design in the kitchen table format by having a loose social contract to not play decks at or near competitive levels. Since most meta builds and cards have been scalped and/or scooped up it's pretty easy to tell most of the time which cards are unfair based purely on their price, and so loosely our decks average at about 20 to 30 dollars each, give or take. We're fairly open with our criticisms and worries about certain cards or builds and upon playing we have come across either criticism damning certain archetypes, or personal feel-bads at taking away the fun of the table. We soft rule decks that win before turn 6, and do so consistently, as being more or less banned.
It leads to some crazy games like you guys mentioned. Missing a land drop isn't always the end of the world, especially in multiplayer, where if a player is blown out, sure they feel like the game has left them behind for a few turns, but they're likely silently building up either a board presence, or a stack of resources in their hand, or both. Lower power levels are the right way to play the game to us, wouldn't have it any other way.
I've naturally started to play fewer of the high-power staples by removing proxies from some decks. For instance, I have 2 cyclonic rifts, so only allowing it in 2 decks makes me more creative with the other decks. I don't like games to drag out, though, so I will keep some combos or other finishers
I also take this approach. People always scream at me when I say that I'm somewhat glad the powerful staples are expensive because when people don't proxy, it makes them make decisions about including all those cards. That helps decks and games be less homogenized which I think is better.
The worst feeling with low power is playing against someone who doesn’t have a wincon or just doesn’t draw it, but they have plenty of removal or lifegain and you end up sitting there waiting for something to happen.
If you are top decking after your threats were removed, you lack card draw. Don't get mad at the opponents taking all your threats out, learn from it.
I mostly play at this pl you are talking about, and this video helped me understanding it more, and also the differences between it and higher pls
I definitely prefer 5-6 powerlevel, battlecruiser style decks. I have 2 decks with 1 infinite combo as a win con but they're not the main purpose. I typically play decks that rely on the commander a lot for the most value (ex. Gishath). I don't like base precons, but whatever the next step up is and maybe 1 or 2 above that with some upgrades. I've played at higher levels a few times and don't have as much fun.
This made me comfortable taking our Back to Basics from one of my decks.
My playgroup implemented the 45 minute rule. We set a timer for 45 minutes and if the game is still stalemate we concede. If it's close to finishing it goes to "overtime" we set a 15 minute timer. It makes us play more aggressive and try to pull off the Win.
bwahahah 23:27 where Joe Cherries notices Beezy's hair standing up lol.
Yeah it got a little crazy lol 😂
Thanks for the birthday shoutout again!! love the secret shoutout
One thing I've enjoyed doing to let other people have similar experiences is cutting down on the amount of removal and instead playing more flexible, move impactful removal. Not only is it less controlling but it also lets you accomplish more with each
Bedwarssweat? Magic? Cool!
In this meta, instead of knocking out one opponent early, consider vassalizing them instead. Keeps them in the game and more interesting interactions between each player. Politics matter more in lower power level.
This is so much more important then people give credit for. I played a game recently where someone was playing Koma. At the first opportunity he killed me and another player at the same time with Overwhelming Stampede. He couldn't kill the other player because they had stax effects like Ghostly Prison and couldn't afford the mana. He ended up losing the game to the enchantment stax player but had he kept me and the other player in the game longer and only attacked us down to low life totals then he could've gotten more serpents so when he finally found an answer to the stax pieces he could've killed everyone at once. He didn't do this so when he destroyed the stax pieces preventing him from attacking he didn't have enough for lethal and lost a few turns later.
Both these comments ring so loud and true. I've lost count of how many times I've been coming 2nd in a game and been killed by the player coming 3rd or 4th, only for them to realise they had no way of winning without me. Yes I could have killed them, but usually I see the guy with 100+ life and a hectic board state as the threat and dont think I'm gonna be bashed for lethal whilst trying to reign in the King.
Exactly!
Also me and my friends actively keep each other alive the most we can in our low pl group, i think that has a lot to do with politics.
Sounds like your meta is way more fun now! That's the meta i love playing. A game of turn 8+
Variety is the spice of life. I think it's a good idea to have a wide range of power levels, have a Rule 0 conversation that includes desire power level, and drop decks accordingly.
Low power commander decks, YES. This is my jam. Themes and memes and janky stuff. But! May I suggest you go even lower in power level and also drop life to 20 starting life. And give monarch to the player last in turn order starting at round 1. Games are quick. Life gain and evasion matters even more. Creature based aggro becomes super viable. Attacking someone is very~~ tempting.
And even if a player gets eliminated, the wait shouldn’t be too long. Easy to get double or tripple the games in. And also two headed giant (commander or not) is my favorite way to do multiplayer. You win together and lose together and when the game ends, no one is waiting.
The 5-7 change was a good move. However some opponents enjoy a “challenge” … there are cards u can use to counter problematic strats without lowering your own decks power.
Additionally, if your opponents commander is hex proof and indestructible, rift seems totally fair.
You guys are doing great content. Keep it up
Plus all the carts, normal conveyers, sliding doors, pallet jacks, etc
Doors vs Wheels: if we are going to count toy wheels then we should count shower doors, cabinet doors, kitchen appliance doors (oven, fridge, microwave, dishwasher etc) garage doors etc. My house has 70 doors and it is a standard 3 bedroom house. That being said, sliding doors typically have 2 wheels. I think wheels are more prevalent, but I think it's closer than you'd expect.
Interesting video! Wish I had more time and consistent play group to try this out.
I actually won a game where I mana flooded early on a hand where I had kept 4 lands then drew lands on 5 out of first 6 turns. I had one viable card in my hand, a Counterspell. On turn 5 one of my opponents was casting their Commander and would have a real advantage. Someone else was going to counter the Commander being cast and I offered to counter the counter if they left me alone. They agreed and everyone pretty much left me alone since I was no threat on the board. In the end I was over 30 life and the other 3 had killed each other. The last one standing was the one I helped and he was at 4 life left. I had an 8/8 trampled and 5/4 flyer and he couldn’t prevent lethal. (One thing that helped was one card in my opening hand was Dissipation Field and I got it into play. The Zombie player and tokens player didn’t want to swing into that.)
I've had Dissipation Field ruin me, as the owner of it haha waaaay too many etb triggers these days, Dissipation Field is literally saying, 'Hey, attack me with anything you want to cast again!' Cascade and blink decks are just dying for you to cast it. I swapped it out with Energy Field, its fragile but holy hell it puts in work.
Unblockability is really powerful. That is why I play sidar konda/vial smasher 2 power or less creatures. It does run some cards over 2 power. It is fucking dope for combat shit like that.
This is an eye opener for what's important at the level I play at.
Edit: Nebraska, North Dakota, New York, New Phyrexia.
I like the Power Level 4-6 Games, one or maybe two 4 card combos in a deck and combat/lifeloss matters :)
"...most stuff is on board in a meta like this. Before, some could play a combo out of their hand, and just win out of the blue"
This sounds like they were playing cEDH before, where winning the game requires no setup. By contrast, every Commander deck I've played with has stuff on the board, and game-winning combos required one or two turns of setup to pull off.
all in all i simply enjoy the huge diversity and room for creativity and flavor when lowering the power level
I feel the same
Liquimetal torque is becoming very significant for me for removing enchantments and extra stuff in red. Much easier to remove stuff by turning them into artifacts first
I like on-board, sorcery speed 3+ card combos. It's like building a fun contraption.
I know you guys love to rag on Cultivate and Kodama's Reach, but those cards are actually *perfect* for a medium to medium-high power level (6-7/10 within casual Commander territory). They ramp you, fix your mana well, guarantee a follow-up land drop and are 2-for-1s. They're certainly not among your best cards in a deck that's a 7 on the power scale - but they're like the last playable 3-drop that you needed to make your draft deck work, "a fine man" as some old hands would say.
Nice shirt, Joe. Great Revival shirt, one might say.
I think that even in a little lower power level keeping to only 2 or 3 board wipes is good, mostly just for the fun. I've played games where there were so many it got wiped every once around the table. Someone would manage to build up a good board and then "oh no we have to wipe". I prefer to answer a board with a board.
I've gotten the philosophy that my decks should be built to handle almost any situation. While my sliver deck is a combat sliver deck, has no tutors (excluding fetch lands), and has not infinite combos. Though I don't win many games with it against my friends there is never a moment where I didn't impact the game heavily. I tend to build my decks in a way where I can either remove my opponents key pieces or stop my opponents from winning the game randomly. Over all I think you should just build your deck with an idea in mind, but also try to craft it to handle as many situations as possible.
Great content. To take this a step further, it sounds like your games could benefit by people playing fewer board wipes. Then you get a lot less resetting the board and very long games.
At lower power levels in my pod I have started adding sub optimal cards that benefit people of my choice as well as me, such as wedding ring, secret rondevous, and victory chimes. While I play to win nothing feels worse than watching that one player who can't get the deck started struggle , (my pod is fairly inexperienced at magic, aside from a couple).
I have 4 EDH decks for most cases that I can play in, A cEDH storm deck, a 7-8 power RG Ramp Raggadragga that doesn't play Caterhoof or tutors but has a ton of card draw. A Mono B Tergrid around the 6ish power level ( probably 7 ish cuz of the commander ) Has no fast mana, tutors, or board wipes. And then a Pre con for new players who don't wanna get blown out of the game. I like the 6-8 power level because of the interaction and a lot of decks and get their game plan online and still not be able to close it out easily. Nothing is worst then sitting down having everyone agree to play creature heavy decks and see one guy pull out a Meren, then proceed to combo off with Protean Hulk on turn 5.
I like the direction of the power 5-7 meta you are talking about. I would like to see a follow-up video, or maybe a link to list, of those cards you find which are “unfun” or inordinately “oppressive” for this meta.
I can see how you mention Aura Shards, Cyclonic Rift, Mana Crypt, and so on. I’ve found cards like Imprisoned In The Moon, Song of the Dryads, and Darksteel Mutation, which take out a single commander without sending it back to the command zone, also tend to make someone feel unilaterally bad when their whole game plan is just eliminated (unless they can top-deck an enchantment removal spell). Agent of Treachery and other “steal your stuff” cards are also kind of harsh, but at least there are ways to get your commander back by killing it.
My collection isnt huge but I've gotten to a point the longet running/best 3 are high power 7's/8s..... started 3 new budget decks that give me a lower power level. I've started a 7th and I'm trying to fall in between the two. All of them are fun to pilot and give me options at the dork store.
I've been playing edh consistently for about 6-7 years and I'm like 80% Cherries and 20% Beezy when it comes to this. I like lower power level because I can play obscure or funky cards and have them actually feel good to play and I also like ending games through combat...but I also believe that infinite combos and even MLD have their place in commander. In an effort to spice up my weekly games and combat card homogeneity, I came up with an idea of playing 0 ramp as an interesting thought experiment with my playgroup. That idea sprouted legs and took off running. There was enough interest amongst the folks I play with regularly that I had a lawyer friend in my group help me draft the language for what constitutes as "ramp" so that there are as few questions or corner case scenarios as possible with regards to what cards were off limits and which cards were fair game. With this restriction, all of a sudden 10-15 slots in any given deck just open up and cards like Journeyer's Kite, Mycosynth Wellspring, and freakin' Pilgrim's Eye become serious considerations. Sure, the games took a bit longer because everyone was playing on curve and defaulted to combat based win-cons, but they never felt like a slog because everyone was playing at a good pace. The decks were Anafenza, the Foremost +1/+1 counters matter, Rafiq Voltron, Boros Slivers (don't ask lol), and me on Thassa, Deep Dwelling using Scroll of Fate to manifest fatties from my hand and then blink them with Thassa. Every game I played where I saw three Islands and Pilgrim's Eye or Skittering Surveyor made me excited in a way I hadn't felt in a long while. I didn't win a single game but I had an absolute blast playing with and against these decks.
I love this discussion. I think one common theme with most annoying games is the amount of time taken on a players' turn exceeding how long others are taking on average.
Do you think a chess clock would help? Perhaps each player has an alloted amount of "time per game" they can use, and if they hit it, they lose? Obviously it might still be a little long, but you could just take desired game length and divide it by 4.
100% been noticing this the past few months since half of our pod changed (moved away etc.)
feels like 1 of the (new) players average turn length is equal to the other 3 players combined most turn cycles - and not necessarily because of a chaotic board state or they're processing triggers etc.
not sure if a chess clock would be helpful, but something has got to give ya'know?
@@Rexzoden It would change the meta for sure and punish time-consuming cards (like Cathars' Crusade, value loops, etc.) - there should be some kind of punishment to long drawn out play patterns. This might be a controversial argument, and sure, people play commander to play what they want - but people shouldn't be subjected to one person's solitaire game that resulted in gaining a handful of life/counters and affecting the gamestate hardly at all.
Chess clock is something that really can’t work in magic outside of an online client as priority passes far too oftenn
I have a buddy like that. LOL One time it took them 10 minutes to play a land:
The playgroup: Play a land already!
Slowhand Buddy: I am thinking...
Me: Sigh
BUT THE WORST WAS:
My other CEDH playgroup had a player take 45 minutes to figure out that they couldn't win with their silly Gitrog Delve combo SIGH! :P
Analysis paralysis is thing, I'm sure we've all experienced it at one point or another
but 5-10 minutes to play land, mana rock and pass (or similar multiple times a game)? Yikes
Fairly recently my playgroup decided 2 card infinite combos were a bit bullshit as we do a lot of tutoring, so we've hamstrung them to limit how many times they do something per turn for stuff like Exquisite+Vito, or just flat out removed them. Personally I'm enjoying my decks more because now I can pull this stuff out and restore cut cards I enjoy. Fast mana is still okay, but I will say I enjoy building decks without fast mana and staple overload, because I go from making an 80-85 card deck to making a 90-95 card deck.
Depends on how you want to play. As long as everyone is on the same page. Also cEDH is so in depth. My main deck wins with combat damage and stax vs midrange piles or turbo decks etc. You can have this same experience you guys talk about at any power level. It's more about group dynamics then decks imo :)
If you are in black, Sangromancer has been an allstar for incidental life gain. Creatures die all the time. I also had a game where someone wheeled twice in a turn and I gained ~150 life :D
One thing I've learned playing combat matters metas for the past few years is that especially in mono white or boros, cards that protect all your permanents from board wipes definitely get a big power boost as they can double as win-cons. Obviously teferi's protection is bonkers at any level but things like boros charm, unbreakable formation or even rootborn defenses in response to a board wipe that's being cast specifically to deal with your board state have won me many games. One caveat to this is you should probably only include these in lists that will want to be casting these spells during your turn a good percentage of the time rather than just including them for defensive purposes.
I have a Garth deck that's my trade binder deck where everything besides lands are up for trade and the lands get moved to other decks when needed. Honestly, its such a fun deck and I just slot in cool rares I pick up when I draft.
I have a Golos deck that's 7 of each basic, Crystal Quarry, Cascading Cataracts, and like 60 random cards from a 100 rare "value" pack I got on ebay. Decided to keep it postbanning since it's not tying anything up, and it already might've had multiple copies of some cards, so it wasn't high on the legality list anyway :P
I feel like this is the level I typically like to build my decks and play at. It really emphasizes the importance of synergy when you can't just fetch your combo pieces by turn 5.
My obosh deck is a combat matters, and is capable of getting a one shot kill, but then I'm usually out of steam for a few turns. I don't win with it much, but it's still fun. I still play some of the staples, and with a perfect hand would be capable of a turn 4 win, but even that depends on combat with void winnower, neheb, and obosh on the field to give me enough to cast a huge jaya's. Usually just do some damage here and there, and maybe take out one player before I get killed.
I started powering down my decks after seeing that I could win easily in my playgroup or games became Archenemy. I cut tutors for card draw and big staples for synergy pieces and games are way more fun.