Another excellent question, yes in fact you can mix dyes and stains provided they have the same base, ie water based or petroleum based. It often doesn't work out that well because the stain tends to eliminate the value of the dye, but in the right combinations, and colors it could be quite effective. Thanks for posting this . Colin
Hi Ian, very good question. In your case a stain is best because your table is going to be outside and subjected to a lot of sunlight over the years. Stains hold up much better for outdoor applications. The only other thing to watch is if you are using Cedar wood, the oils in cedar are such that practically nothing sticks to it long term.
That's a great question, I have not done it but apparently you can mix dyes with alcohol. The advantage would be that this mixture would not raise the grain. If I were to do do it, I think I would try a small amount of 60% alcohol. As for using these dyes outdoors, the answer there would be generally, no, these organic dyes do not hold up as well under UV light from the sun, so you would probably have to re-stain every few years. Thanks for the question, great to have you with us. Colin
You are right about dyes not being as color fast as stains, however this really means for things like out-door furniture, fences, house siding etc. Unless you will be playing outside in the sun, all day every day, you are fine using dyes (see Stewmac). On top of the dye, traditionally, laquer was used, and Stewmac sell that too, in a spray cans, very convenient. I personally would use Osmo, harder to find eco friendly, great wearing and easy to apply. Would LOVE to see pics of your banjo
I have worked with wood for a long time and of coarse purchase stains at the regular places like Lowe's od Home Depot or Ganal Lumber. I never new that there really was a dye. I always assumed that when someone said dye they meant stain. Kind of like for a vehicle a goose neck versus a water outlet. Both can be a thermostat housing. I have learned a few tricks over the years but this simple coloring application may just solve some of the train wrecks I have had trying to get that perfect finish I hoped for but never got exactly what I wanted. Thank you. I did notice a little mixing up of stain / dye bit you had my attention and with the show and tell, no problem. So thank you very much and I have some projects coming up that I will be trying dye on. Tim
funny thing, where i'm from a goose neck is only a type of trailer hitch that sits directly above the rear axle. below is a link to a manufacturer who branded themselves after the type of trailer they manufacture. www.gooseneck.net/
Thanks for commenting, Yes, you are correct that vinegar and steel wool would be a dye, vanish on the other hand is a clear coat topical finish. So dye soaks into the wood, vanish lays on top the wood. Colin
That's an excellent question, and I didn't mention it in the video. You could apply a dye over top of a stain but it will likely have little to now effect. You would need to sand most or all of the stain off, then dye the wood before you would get the desired affect. You could however, apply stain over top of a dye. Thanks for posting :) Colin
These dyes were from Lee Valley Tools, are sold under their own brand name, but the dyes are made in USA. The brown dye says is Aniline Wood Stain, water soluble power, Honeytone Amber. The ebony dye was also from Lee Valley (and is probably the best ebonized treatment I have used so far, I was very happy with it). Hope this helps Colin
Hi Tom, thanks for the question. It really depends on the project and the wood I am using and the look I want. If I want something a of a gloss, I will often use Shellac, if I am looking for more matte looking I might use Tung Oil or my favorite finish Osmo. Those are my preferences, other people might use varnish or lacquer. I just like finishes that are a bit more enviro friendly. Hope this helps Colin
That's a great question, and the answer is hard to define because it varies from wood to wood, and hard woods don't have the same penetration as soft woods. For depth of penetration, I actually cut into the wood with a sharp chisel and it appears that in the maple I used it was about 1/128 deep. When I did the same with the stain, you could see no real penetration. I would say pine or fir or similar woods would have the best penetration where oaks and maples would have less. Thanks again. Colin
Well, dyes are just one alternative, some stains work better on some woods, and it depends on the look you want too. Great question about what woods do not work, and yes, some of the very hard hardwoods seem to take dyes less willingly. Pine is one of the woods that is easier to stain as a comparison. Thanks for commenting ... great to have you with us Colin
Hi Bobby, good question. In your case you really will need to dye before gluing, and I would even give it at least one coat of what ever top coat you are going to use as well. This will help protect the dye, and make it easier to clean up glue after too. This method of construction is called pre-finishing and I do use it from time to time. Sometimes it's easier to finish the wood before it is assembled. We would love to see pics when it's done :) Colin
Great question, to be honest, I have not tried alcohol based dyes. I like 2 things about them, they dry fast and they won't raise the grain. What I don't know is how well they penetrate compared to water based. My only suggestion, if possible, would be to try some on a part of your project that is hidden from view to see how it works for you. Would love to hear you you make out, would like to see a pic of the project sometime too. Great to have you with us Colin
Great video! Thanks so much. Glad I found this before I finish my Birdseye drawer fronts. This really clears the air for me on when to use dye vs stain. Thanks again.
wow, birdseye fronts, maybe you will share some pics of your work on woodworkweb so we can all see :) Thanks for posting, looking forward to seeing your project Colin
Very interesting, I have not even thought of trying it. I can't see why it would not work. Would love to see some pics of your finished work ... and hear more about how you use this. Thanks for commenting Colin
Man, you rock! I have learned SO much from you, Mr. Knecht! In addition to being very knowledgeable, and open in sharing that knowledge, you also seem to be a very nice person, and relay information in a personable manner, which makes it much nicer to listen to and easier to get through my thick skull! Lol Thank you! Just so you know, I am not one to comment on TH-cam videos... but I had to offer my gratitude!
Nice comparison video. 10 years later it is a bit late to mention, but as stated dyes are not common to a big box store and I'll use in a pinch food coloring which works well. I've made exotic, in color, stains from both oil & watercolour tube paint and dyes from inks. I've never tried a fabric dye but why not.
Thanks for the video. Just wanted to add that dyes can mixed with water or alcohol (or acetone). The latter come pre-mixed (at least in my experience). You can purchase them at StewMac or any of a number of other places. It's truly a pleasure to finish wood with alcohol-based dye. First, the alcohol flashes off almost instantly, so you can see your work progress without wiping. Second, no grain lift, which saves a lot of sanding, which I hate. Third (using a rag, not a brush) you can really control how much color by rubbing on additional layers. No waiting between coats. The chatoyancy ("sparkly-ness") of the wood is greatly enhanced. It's super easy to do. I recommend anyone doing an indoor wood project give it a try (they are not as color fast as stains). I use it to finish guitars.
Thanks for this comment. I got some "spirit" (alcohol) based stain as recommended to me for a little wooden stool I put together that is currently unfinished. I've only ever put a few drops of the spirit-based alcohol stain onto a scrap piece of wood. It seemed to go on really unevenly and blotchy, fully saturating one area and barely touching another. I'm scared of an uneven finish. I can't find any youtube videos on how to use this dye/stain correctly! Maybe I'll look under "alcohol" instead of "spirit". If you have any tips, I'd really appreciate it. I'm so confused!
This is an excellent video. Non-Grain-Raising (NGR) dyes are available which help you to avoid the chief disadvantage of dyes. I like the Mohawk brand myself. This product is sometimes packaged as Behlen's Solar-lux. The dye works "like a charm" although it dries quite quickly so lap marks can be a problem in hot weather. Apply it in cool of the evening or use a retarder.
Hi Caco ... hmmm, to be honest, without seeing exactly what your are working with, I'm doing a certain amount of guess work here. Before you do anything, if you buy, try doing just a small, obscure section first. I think I would do light sand with 120 grit for a prep. Both pine and maple will darken slightly with age and stain, even translucent will tend to block some of the grain detail, but it still might look great. I think all you can do is try it. Hope this helps, email if you need more.
Yes I see, it looks very cool. Any speaker boxes for guitars (or amps) have always been (good quality) plywood, of some sort, but these have all been quite large too like 24"x36"- to 48". There are some challenges in working with natural lumbers in large sizes, but you may be making something quite a bit smaller. My best suggestion would be to write this up in the forums on woodworkweb, there are many others who might have ideas and suggestions that could help, and I will see it there too. Colin
Hi Tommy, yes you will get lots of differing opinions, and probably all of them correct. When it comes to finishing there are many, many different ways. Good for you for doing this, it's a great way to get stated. We would love to see some pics when you get it finished :) Colin
In that case I would suggest a Minwax product called Polyshades. It's a one step stain and finish and comes in a variety of colors. Probably available at larger home reno stores like Home Depot, etc. Check that out, I think that will work nicely for you
This sounds like an ongoing interesting project. Pre-treating might be a good idea, but you are right that testing is the best way to see how things turn out. Keep in touch, am interested to see who this goes Colin
i have noticed that its not always black and white. For example, rusted iron+vinegar is a dye, but also a stain. More over the wood colorisation caused by chemical reaction/interaction (oxidation) in between the wood and the acid. That is also commonly known, it depends on the type, the hardness, and the age of the wood as well. The rust will stay partly on the surface as well, so its not a dye, not a stain, both a little bit both, or something totally different. However everybody call it stain.
With the holidays I finally have time to watch some of your older videos. This one is very interesting. I did not know there was any difference. In fact I never heard the word "dye" before, I think. I don't know if the "dye" is only used in Canada or the US but I think the these to words are very often mixed up. I'm quite sure I have seen some videos on woodworking the last few years in which was used the word "stain" where, according to your "vocabulary" the word "dye" was meant. For example "staining" wood with tea, coffee, etc.
I was wondering about the difference and now I know. Thx! I recently made a 36" US flag using strips of pine and couldn't get the depth of color (Crimson and Navy Blue) I wanted with Minwax tintable stain by leaving it on and wiping off. Extra applications didn't help. I first tried making my own stain and that was washed out also. I thought it was my concoction, but the Minwax was the same. Wood conditioner seemed to make little difference. I looked at dyes, but didn't know enough about them. In the end, I simply used a brush (like painting) to keep thinning out the amount of Minwax stain on the strips until I got the depth and transparency I wanted and then let it dry (even though the can says don't let the excess dry without wiping). After applying a satin finish, the flag came out awesome. I had scorched the wood prior to staining and hand-engraved the stars after. Now a friend wants one! I felt that I wasn't using the stain right, but since you've explained that it's really a surface coating, I'm not so worried anymore! I might try a dye in the future on other woodworking projects and see how that looks
Thanks Colin. As always informative. Never used dyes but can see how much more of the character of the wood comes through. \\\\yes there was a couple of mix ups between the 2 but I understood. After all you are a woodworker not a pro TV presenter. The important thing is you got the message over. Enjoyed it.
If you don’t want to raise the grain you can use alcohol to desolve your dyes instead of water, which has very little affect on the wood, even helps penetration.
Thanks, for the video and reply. The banjo will be very simple in design, so I wanted to make the wood a feature. I will send some pics when complete (still a long way off)
This would be a huge time investment as all the walls have this paneling. I've done it in stain, but not dye. Was in a beach house that sustained a flood years ago, and their pine paneling that was removed and stored. New owner found it and reused part for their great room. The salt over the years created a coating on the panels that not only whitened it but had crystal like specs blended with the wood knots. Have never seen anything like it but would like to recreate that whitewashed look.
Dyes are nice to work with, but I have never had the opportunity to use them on a wall. Also, I have never seen a white as a dye color, so that could be a challenge too. About the lightest I have seen is like a blonde oak colour, which would be nice on pine, but it's still not a whitish color.
Since the dye penetrates so much, does this mean that it is more blotchy? Particularly, will this make a wood more blotchy than before? Also, does it wash out the grain in plywoods more than a stain?
You said the con of using dye was that it was water based and lifted the grain. Please keep in mind that you can use other carriers such as alcohols or lacquer thinner. I prefer Sherwin Williams haps compliant dye stain reducer. None of these will raise the grain and they dry much faster than water. I have used Lenmar and Sherwin Williams brand Sherwood dyes with the dye stain reducer and it worked well with no raised grain.
A couple of things you didn't mention are that there are also alcohol based stains that will help limit how much the grain is raised when applied. Also, a downside to dies that was kind of implied at the beginning is that they're not colorfast and will fade over time.
Brian Ekins Hi Brian, I have search for hours looking for burnt umber dye I can’t find it anywhere. Rockler had a few others, eBay was a no go. Can you tell me where I might locate some? Many thanks, Todd
In Europe they have premixed nitro dyes , basic colours , chip and very fast drying , not lifting grain even on pine . You apply base lacquer cote , send the grain , spray dye and apply clear cote . Very fast process .Never used wiping stain back home , because couldn't even find it .Here is opposite , I can't find good nitro spray dye stain .
Very informative video. However, dyes aren’t necessarily water based. You can mix dyes with alcohol for example and have a different penetration and drying time. Valuable information was withheld in this video.
I recommend appling dyes with a thick sponge. Squeeze the sponge dry afterward and use it to dry off the excess. Dye will also be lighter once it has dried so you might have to apply two layers (three if you want it really dark).
Not sure what you mean?? Brand ? I am using something that Lee Valley sells under their own name, hope that is what you meant, but if not, shoot me another note, Thanks for commenting ... Colin
Well, it does depend a bit on the wood, so is it an electric or acoustic? and do you know what kind of wood it is? Off hand, my suggestion would be to go with a wood dye, if you go to Stewmac you find that's mostly what they sell for coloring wood. Top coating also depends on guitar, Lacquer is common, but Shellac is also excellent, as is Tung Oil. Let me know more about your project and can advise better can even email me through the main website Colin
Thanks, I will check it out. It's a 1970s mass produced piece with fake carved detail. I just want it to "blend" with what I"'m getting-mission style pieces in a warm tone plus I want an easy finish that not shiny and possibly low on the odor side while I do it. Whatever wood they used, it's a pale golden color with long striations in it and the top may be a thicker veneer. Thanks again.
Thx for quick reply. Will e you a photo. Have done white stain on unfinished white pine paneling and it aged beautifully, knots and all, but dye sounds interesting.
Considering purchasing a beach house where the the entire place is paneled with what appears to be pine or maple veneer paneling that is NOT sealed, the good news. It's smooth to the touch but not laminated. Its aged a medium oak color bordering on the blonde/red side. I'd like to see the knots come through and not lose the variation in grain colors, but go either white or off white. Should I be using a prep to make sure to get the top layer clean, and would dye be a better choice?
haven't tested the wood yet but did learn that it's unsealed birch paneling (no poly coating) and it's been up for 30 years, so lots of sun and salty sea air absorbed over time. i'm thinking it will take on a really nice white wash as there's lots of variation and knots. been reading about water based stain, and from what i've googled pretreating is required...thought before i take on a closet to test?
Great video. It helped me a lot last year when I decided to build a desk! The ebony black dye turned out beautiful. Question though, I am in midst of building an outdoor pergola with (copper) pressure treated wood. Are dyes suitable for this, as well as outdoor? I plan to also seal it with a spar varnish for extra protection, plus I can polish it. I'd love to use this ebony dye again.
great teacher and lesson on dyes vs stain..now i know what i would prefer vs someone telling me what is better..thank you...i cant believe there are 42 dislikes...mmmm
Colin, Thanks very much for making this video. Very informative. A few weeks back I made some homemade dye using black walnut hulls and alcohol. It is still leaching and should be ready in a week or two. It is as dark as ink but translucent as you pointed out as is characteristic of dyes. I've tested it on red oak scraps and the results are terrific. I didn't see any grain lifting and penetration is excellent. It dries really fast so that might explain why no grain distortion as would be the case with water. Do you have any experience with alcohol based dyes? Any drawbacks? I imagine that commercial dry dyes would also mix with alcohol.
Hardnox I do not have any experience with alcohol based dyes, only water based. I did mix a small bath of dry water based dye with alcohol but it would not mix together so you are ahead of me in actually making alcohol based dye .... good for you!!! I am curious, what is the alcohol base you are using? Alcohol base should work just great, as you say, will dry quickly and shouldn't lift the grain. Thanks for the note on this, keep me abreast of what you are doing. Colin
If you're going for an ethanol base you'll have to work faster and more precisely than when you're using water, so water base is just simpler to use (and simpler to fix if you mess up). You won't have to sand much after applying water base dye, a fine paper will do.
Just watched your video on dye vs stain and learned a LOT. One problem with dyes that I've found is the tendency to get lapping when trying to use dye on a large surface such as a table top. I"ve seen suggestions that using an HVLP gun to spray it works better on large surfaces. Any thoughts?
Carmen Serrett Good question Carmen, I have had some mixed for 2+ years and it's fine, I don't even have to stir it. I do not recall seeing anything that talks about a shelf life for these aniline dyes, but experience tells me ... should be good for a few years anyway.
Nice article & presentation of differing processes, Staining & Dyeing. I want to know which process, Stain or Dye, is least likely to run or bleed or leech into an adjoining inlay strip, when clear coated. I am planning to dye some walnut to look like ebony & inlay the finishes strips of it, next to inlay banding of maple. I was also wondering how the stain or dye would effect it's gluing properties.
that was great! super informative! im wondering about alcohol based dyes. I know they dry alot faster than water based but considering that im working with a very rare expensive antique, are alcohol based dyes a better choice?
It's really difficult to answer a question like this because it leads to many more questions before a recommendation can be made, like what kind of wood is it? what kind of a look are you striving for? Is this a valuable heirloom piece? do you want Gloss, Matte, Satin? Lot of different variable and many different combinations of finishes to choose from. My best suggestion would be to post something on the Forums at woodworkweb and I am out of room here already, sorry.
Great answered a lot of my questions I was waiting to hear about topcoats I have the waterbase die I’m thinking of putting a polyurethane over the top once it is dry?or Acrylic.
If dyes are water based, they are more likely to lift/change with weathering? I am building a curly maple banjo. While it is fairly safe in my living room, if I am jamming outdoors in the evening (or with kermit the frog in a swamp), the dye may be prone to weathering. Laquering would of course seal the wood, but I prefer a non-laquered finish. Would a hard wearing oil (eg tung oil) seal a dye from weathering?
Hi. You may have answered this previously but I stripped the paint (my mistake) and original finish (a dark brown stain on light wood, for some reason) off a dresser that I want to use as a buffet. Many hours of work! How do you "finish" a piece that you dye? Would an oil work or do you need a sealer? Thanks. ; )
Another con for me using dyes is that I would have to store them in the house when the shop heat is off. What is the shelf life on dyes? Do you really need to wipe off the dye? What about clear coats on top of the dye? Will glue stick to dyed or partially dyed wood? Thanks for the info! I will have to try a dye project soon. I am visualizing a project with multiple colors.
Thanks so much for the explanation I have always wondered what the difference was but never knew anyone who knew. by the way I watch you a lot cause I like the way you talk. I'm guessing New Englander ?
Hi Kerry, thanks for the kind words. Actually I am from the west coast of Canada but many people tell me I sound like I am from eastern US, so you have some pretty keen hearing :) Thanks again ... Colin
I'm not sure about the wood - it's a cheap electric bass that i'm practicing on. It's currently a sunburst finish but I want to change it to a teal/turquoise transparent effect. Currently doing lots of research but found that everyone has a different opinion. Thanks for the reply.
Hmmm, that's a really good question, and I'm not sure of an answer for you. I assume you or someone is going to be smoking the pipe so I would have some concerns about ingesting chemicals through the wood. Don't know what to tell you, maybe more research, dying might be fine, but perhaps there are dyes that are made for this kind of project. Good luck with your quest, sorry we couldn't help Great to have you with us Colin
I never new there were wood dyes. You said stains last outside forever. What about dyes? Do you have to seal the wood if it is going outside, for example a large planter? Thank you!!!
Thanks for the video! Getting that comparison is really helpful. I'd like to try an aniline dye on pine to achieve a dark finish, since I found it hard to achieve a more uniform dark on pine with an oil-based stain, even with a wood conditioner. Would you say that's the way to go on pine? Or perhaps dye first, then oil-based stain later? Theoretically, I think that could offer an interesting dimensionality and might make it come out more evenly. What do you think? TIA!
Can I use the dye first and then layer with a diluted oil-based stain on top? Are there any consequences? I know you shouldn't mix a sealer with a stain, but does it matter with dye and stain?
Hey Mr. Knecht, just lately I have used some black India ink to stain a fret board. What do you think about ink as a dye? Will it adhere to top coats of final finishes? Lacquer? Shellac? Varnish? Danish oil? Have you addressed this in a different video? Thanks! Your video was very good and informative to me!
Another excellent question, yes in fact you can mix dyes and stains provided they have the same base, ie water based or petroleum based. It often doesn't work out that well because the stain tends to eliminate the value of the dye, but in the right combinations, and colors it could be quite effective.
Thanks for posting this .
Colin
Very helpful video on the differences between stain and dye - thank you! You're an excellent teacher.
Hi Ian, very good question. In your case a stain is best because your table is going to be outside and subjected to a lot of sunlight over the years. Stains hold up much better for outdoor applications. The only other thing to watch is if you are using Cedar wood, the oils in cedar are such that practically nothing sticks to it long term.
That's a great question, I have not done it but apparently you can mix dyes with alcohol. The advantage would be that this mixture would not raise the grain. If I were to do do it, I think I would try a small amount of 60% alcohol.
As for using these dyes outdoors, the answer there would be generally, no, these organic dyes do not hold up as well under UV light from the sun, so you would probably have to re-stain every few years.
Thanks for the question, great to have you with us.
Colin
You are right about dyes not being as color fast as stains, however this really means for things like out-door furniture, fences, house siding etc. Unless you will be playing outside in the sun, all day every day, you are fine using dyes (see Stewmac). On top of the dye, traditionally, laquer was used, and Stewmac sell that too, in a spray cans, very convenient. I personally would use Osmo, harder to find eco friendly, great wearing and easy to apply. Would LOVE to see pics of your banjo
I have worked with wood for a long time and of coarse purchase stains at the regular places like Lowe's od Home Depot or Ganal Lumber. I never new that there really was a dye. I always assumed that when someone said dye they meant stain. Kind of like for a vehicle a goose neck versus a water outlet. Both can be a thermostat housing. I have learned a few tricks over the years but this simple coloring application may just solve some of the train wrecks I have had trying to get that perfect finish I hoped for but never got exactly what I wanted. Thank you. I did notice a little mixing up of stain / dye bit you had my attention and with the show and tell, no problem. So thank you very much and I have some projects coming up that I will be trying dye on. Tim
+tim horton No prob, thank for your comments Tim
funny thing, where i'm from a goose neck is only a type of trailer hitch that sits directly above the rear axle. below is a link to a manufacturer who branded themselves after the type of trailer they manufacture.
www.gooseneck.net/
Thanks for commenting, Yes, you are correct that vinegar and steel wool would be a dye, vanish on the other hand is a clear coat topical finish. So dye soaks into the wood, vanish lays on top the wood.
Colin
That's an excellent question, and I didn't mention it in the video.
You could apply a dye over top of a stain but it will likely have little to now effect. You would need to sand most or all of the stain off, then dye the wood before you would get the desired affect. You could however, apply stain over top of a dye.
Thanks for posting :)
Colin
These dyes were from Lee Valley Tools, are sold under their own brand name, but the dyes are made in USA. The brown dye says is Aniline Wood Stain, water soluble power, Honeytone Amber. The ebony dye was also from Lee Valley (and is probably the best ebonized treatment I have used so far, I was very happy with it).
Hope this helps
Colin
Thanks for commenting, glad these are helpful ... great to have you with us
Colin
Thanks for taking the time to comment ... great to have you with us
Colin
Hi Tom, thanks for the question. It really depends on the project and the wood I am using and the look I want. If I want something a of a gloss, I will often use Shellac, if I am looking for more matte looking I might use Tung Oil or my favorite finish Osmo. Those are my preferences, other people might use varnish or lacquer. I just like finishes that are a bit more enviro friendly. Hope this helps
Colin
That's a great question, and the answer is hard to define because it varies from wood to wood, and hard woods don't have the same penetration as soft woods. For depth of penetration, I actually cut into the wood with a sharp chisel and it appears that in the maple I used it was about 1/128 deep. When I did the same with the stain, you could see no real penetration. I would say pine or fir or similar woods would have the best penetration where oaks and maples would have less. Thanks again.
Colin
Well, dyes are just one alternative, some stains work better on some woods, and it depends on the look you want too. Great question about what woods do not work, and yes, some of the very hard hardwoods seem to take dyes less willingly. Pine is one of the woods that is easier to stain as a comparison. Thanks for commenting ... great to have you with us
Colin
Hi Bobby, good question. In your case you really will need to dye before gluing, and I would even give it at least one coat of what ever top coat you are going to use as well. This will help protect the dye, and make it easier to clean up glue after too. This method of construction is called pre-finishing and I do use it from time to time. Sometimes it's easier to finish the wood before it is assembled.
We would love to see pics when it's done :)
Colin
Great question, to be honest, I have not tried alcohol based dyes. I like 2 things about them, they dry fast and they won't raise the grain. What I don't know is how well they penetrate compared to water based. My only suggestion, if possible, would be to try some on a part of your project that is hidden from view to see how it works for you.
Would love to hear you you make out, would like to see a pic of the project sometime too.
Great to have you with us
Colin
Thanks for commenting, great to have you with us
Colin
Great video! Thanks so much. Glad I found this before I finish my Birdseye drawer fronts. This really clears the air for me on when to use dye vs stain. Thanks again.
wow, birdseye fronts, maybe you will share some pics of your work on woodworkweb so we can all see :)
Thanks for posting, looking forward to seeing your project
Colin
What is the shelf life if dye? Thanks for the great presentation.
Very interesting, I have not even thought of trying it. I can't see why it would not work. Would love to see some pics of your finished work ... and hear more about how you use this.
Thanks for commenting
Colin
Man, you rock! I have learned SO much from you, Mr. Knecht! In addition to being very knowledgeable, and open in sharing that knowledge, you also seem to be a very nice person, and relay information in a personable manner, which makes it much nicer to listen to and easier to get through my thick skull! Lol
Thank you!
Just so you know, I am not one to comment on TH-cam videos... but I had to offer my gratitude!
Nice comparison video. 10 years later it is a bit late to mention, but as stated dyes are not common to a big box store and I'll use in a pinch food coloring which works well. I've made exotic, in color, stains from both oil & watercolour tube paint and dyes from inks. I've never tried a fabric dye but why not.
Thanks for the video. Just wanted to add that dyes can mixed with water or alcohol (or acetone). The latter come pre-mixed (at least in my experience). You can purchase them at StewMac or any of a number of other places. It's truly a pleasure to finish wood with alcohol-based dye. First, the alcohol flashes off almost instantly, so you can see your work progress without wiping. Second, no grain lift, which saves a lot of sanding, which I hate. Third (using a rag, not a brush) you can really control how much color by rubbing on additional layers. No waiting between coats. The chatoyancy ("sparkly-ness") of the wood is greatly enhanced. It's super easy to do. I recommend anyone doing an indoor wood project give it a try (they are not as color fast as stains). I use it to finish guitars.
Thanks for this comment. I got some "spirit" (alcohol) based stain as recommended to me for a little wooden stool I put together that is currently unfinished. I've only ever put a few drops of the spirit-based alcohol stain onto a scrap piece of wood. It seemed to go on really unevenly and blotchy, fully saturating one area and barely touching another. I'm scared of an uneven finish. I can't find any youtube videos on how to use this dye/stain correctly! Maybe I'll look under "alcohol" instead of "spirit". If you have any tips, I'd really appreciate it. I'm so confused!
its crazy and impressive you have over 10 years of quality vids
This is an excellent video. Non-Grain-Raising (NGR) dyes are available which help you to avoid the chief disadvantage of dyes. I like the Mohawk brand myself. This product is sometimes packaged as Behlen's Solar-lux. The dye works "like a charm" although it dries quite quickly so lap marks can be a problem in hot weather. Apply it in cool of the evening or use a retarder.
Hi Caco ... hmmm, to be honest, without seeing exactly what your are working with, I'm doing a certain amount of guess work here. Before you do anything, if you buy, try doing just a small, obscure section first. I think I would do light sand with 120 grit for a prep. Both pine and maple will darken slightly with age and stain, even translucent will tend to block some of the grain detail, but it still might look great. I think all you can do is try it.
Hope this helps, email if you need more.
Yes I see, it looks very cool. Any speaker boxes for guitars (or amps) have always been (good quality) plywood, of some sort, but these have all been quite large too like 24"x36"- to 48". There are some challenges in working with natural lumbers in large sizes, but you may be making something quite a bit smaller. My best suggestion would be to write this up in the forums on woodworkweb, there are many others who might have ideas and suggestions that could help, and I will see it there too.
Colin
Hi Tommy, yes you will get lots of differing opinions, and probably all of them correct. When it comes to finishing there are many, many different ways.
Good for you for doing this, it's a great way to get stated. We would love to see some pics when you get it finished :)
Colin
Found this 9 years later. super useful thanks!
In that case I would suggest a Minwax product called Polyshades. It's a one step stain and finish and comes in a variety of colors. Probably available at larger home reno stores like Home Depot, etc.
Check that out, I think that will work nicely for you
Thank you so much for this video. It finally solved the conusion I had for finishing wood. God bless you.
This sounds like an ongoing interesting project. Pre-treating might be a good idea, but you are right that testing is the best way to see how things turn out.
Keep in touch, am interested to see who this goes
Colin
Thanks for commenting, we appreciate your kind words
Colin
You are an amazing teacher. Now I know exactly the difference btw dye and stain. Thank you 🙏.
You're Welcome!
i have noticed that its not always black and white. For example, rusted iron+vinegar is a dye, but also a stain. More over the wood colorisation caused by chemical reaction/interaction (oxidation) in between the wood and the acid. That is also commonly known, it depends on the type, the hardness, and the age of the wood as well. The rust will stay partly on the surface as well, so its not a dye, not a stain, both a little bit both, or something totally different. However everybody call it stain.
With the holidays I finally have time to watch some of your older videos.
This one is very interesting. I did not know there was any difference. In fact I never heard the word "dye" before, I think.
I don't know if the "dye" is only used in Canada or the US but I think the these to words are very often mixed up.
I'm quite sure I have seen some videos on woodworking the last few years in which was used the word "stain" where, according to your
"vocabulary" the word "dye" was meant. For example "staining" wood with tea, coffee, etc.
Thanks for taking the time to comment :)
Colin
Nice job. Very clear with great support examples.
EMTdrummer Thanks for posting ... appreciate your feedback
I was wondering about the difference and now I know. Thx!
I recently made a 36" US flag using strips of pine and couldn't get the depth of color (Crimson and Navy Blue) I wanted with Minwax tintable stain by leaving it on and wiping off. Extra applications didn't help. I first tried making my own stain and that was washed out also. I thought it was my concoction, but the Minwax was the same. Wood conditioner seemed to make little difference. I looked at dyes, but didn't know enough about them. In the end, I simply used a brush (like painting) to keep thinning out the amount of Minwax stain on the strips until I got the depth and transparency I wanted and then let it dry (even though the can says don't let the excess dry without wiping). After applying a satin finish, the flag came out awesome. I had scorched the wood prior to staining and hand-engraved the stars after. Now a friend wants one!
I felt that I wasn't using the stain right, but since you've explained that it's really a surface coating, I'm not so worried anymore!
I might try a dye in the future on other woodworking projects and see how that looks
Thank you for a lovely and useful video! It helps a lot on my new project of the dining table! 👍👍
Thank you for posting this sir, by far the most informative video I've seen. These are the type of woodworking videos I look for.
mustangsalley79 I'm glad this was useful to you, thank you for your feedback
Colin
Great tutorial! Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I learned a lot!
Thanks Colin. As always informative. Never used dyes but can see how much more of the character of the wood comes through. \\\\yes there was a couple of mix ups between the 2 but I understood. After all you are a woodworker not a pro TV presenter. The important thing is you got the message over. Enjoyed it.
Thanks Barry, for taking the time ... great to have you with us
If you don’t want to raise the grain you can use alcohol to desolve your dyes instead of water, which has very little affect on the wood, even helps penetration.
Fantastic insight into the understanding of wood dyes and wood stains
Keep up the knowledge sharing 👍🏽
Redd Boy Glad you enjoyed, thanks for the comments
Thanks, for the video and reply. The banjo will be very simple in design, so I wanted to make the wood a feature. I will send some pics when complete (still a long way off)
This would be a huge time investment as all the walls have this paneling. I've done it in stain, but not dye. Was in a beach house that sustained a flood years ago, and their pine paneling that was removed and stored. New owner found it and reused part for their great room. The salt over the years created a coating on the panels that not only whitened it but had crystal like specs blended with the wood knots. Have never seen anything like it but would like to recreate that whitewashed look.
Dyes are nice to work with, but I have never had the opportunity to use them on a wall. Also, I have never seen a white as a dye color, so that could be a challenge too. About the lightest I have seen is like a blonde oak colour, which would be nice on pine, but it's still not a whitish color.
Very informative, thanks for the education!
Thanks for posting, this is good information
Great to have you with us
Colin
Very informative with excellent examples and explanation. Thanks
Since the dye penetrates so much, does this mean that it is more blotchy? Particularly, will this make a wood more blotchy than before? Also, does it wash out the grain in plywoods more than a stain?
You said the con of using dye was that it was water based and lifted the grain. Please keep in mind that you can use other carriers such as alcohols or lacquer thinner. I prefer Sherwin Williams haps compliant dye stain reducer. None of these will raise the grain and they dry much faster than water. I have used Lenmar and Sherwin Williams brand Sherwood dyes with the dye stain reducer and it worked well with no raised grain.
Excellent video! Thanks very much!
great information and presentation!
I'm Dying to try it
Thanks Scotty
A couple of things you didn't mention are that there are also alcohol based stains that will help limit how much the grain is raised when applied. Also, a downside to dies that was kind of implied at the beginning is that they're not colorfast and will fade over time.
Brian Ekins Hi Brian, I have search for hours looking for burnt umber dye I can’t find it anywhere. Rockler had a few others, eBay was a no go. Can you tell me where I might locate some? Many thanks, Todd
Thank you going for the dye.Very good video.
You're welcome! Thanks for watching.
I have had some success with acetone as a dye carrier, it does not raise the grain and dries relatively quickly.
Very informational, it answered all my questions! Great teachings.
In Europe they have premixed nitro dyes , basic colours , chip and very fast drying , not lifting grain even on pine . You apply base lacquer cote , send the grain , spray dye and apply clear cote . Very fast process .Never used wiping stain back home , because couldn't even find it .Here is opposite , I can't find good nitro spray dye stain .
Very informative video. However, dyes aren’t necessarily water based. You can mix dyes with alcohol for example and have a different penetration and drying time. Valuable information was withheld in this video.
very good video,thanks for sharing your knowledge and time
I recommend appling dyes with a thick sponge. Squeeze the sponge dry afterward and use it to dry off the excess. Dye will also be lighter once it has dried so you might have to apply two layers (three if you want it really dark).
Thanks for the tip!
Not sure what you mean?? Brand ? I am using something that Lee Valley sells under their own name, hope that is what you meant, but if not, shoot me another note,
Thanks for commenting ... Colin
Well, it does depend a bit on the wood, so is it an electric or acoustic? and do you know what kind of wood it is?
Off hand, my suggestion would be to go with a wood dye, if you go to Stewmac you find that's mostly what they sell for coloring wood. Top coating also depends on guitar, Lacquer is common, but Shellac is also excellent, as is Tung Oil.
Let me know more about your project and can advise better can even email me through the main website
Colin
Thanks, I will check it out. It's a 1970s mass produced piece with fake carved detail. I just want it to "blend" with what I"'m getting-mission style pieces in a warm tone plus I want an easy finish that not shiny and possibly low on the odor side while I do it. Whatever wood they used, it's a pale golden color with long striations in it and the top may be a thicker veneer. Thanks again.
Awese video! Great detailed information as to what the difference really is! Thank you for sharing
+Hugo Contreras thanks for taking a moment to comment :)
Thx for quick reply. Will e you a photo. Have done white stain on unfinished white pine paneling and it aged beautifully, knots and all, but dye sounds interesting.
Considering purchasing a beach house where the the entire place is paneled with what appears to be pine or maple veneer paneling that is NOT sealed, the good news. It's smooth to the touch but not laminated. Its aged a medium oak color bordering on the blonde/red side. I'd like to see the knots come through and not lose the variation in grain colors, but go either white or off white. Should I be using a prep to make sure to get the top layer clean, and would dye be a better choice?
haven't tested the wood yet but did learn that it's unsealed birch paneling (no poly coating) and it's been up for 30 years, so lots of sun and salty sea air absorbed over time. i'm thinking it will take on a really nice white wash as there's lots of variation and knots. been reading about water based stain, and from what i've googled pretreating is required...thought before i take on a closet to test?
lol ... I love your description, yup ... why not give it a whirl. I would love to know what it turns out like, you may a great idea there ;)
Colin
Great video. It helped me a lot last year when I decided to build a desk! The ebony black dye turned out beautiful. Question though, I am in midst of building an outdoor pergola with (copper) pressure treated wood. Are dyes suitable for this, as well as outdoor? I plan to also seal it with a spar varnish for extra protection, plus I can polish it. I'd love to use this ebony dye again.
great teacher and lesson on dyes vs stain..now i know what i would prefer vs someone telling me what is better..thank you...i cant believe there are 42 dislikes...mmmm
Colin,
Thanks very much for making this video. Very informative. A few weeks back I made some homemade dye using black walnut hulls and alcohol. It is still leaching and should be ready in a week or two. It is as dark as ink but translucent as you pointed out as is characteristic of dyes.
I've tested it on red oak scraps and the results are terrific. I didn't see any grain lifting and penetration is excellent. It dries really fast so that might explain why no grain distortion as would be the case with water.
Do you have any experience with alcohol based dyes? Any drawbacks? I imagine that commercial dry dyes would also mix with alcohol.
Hardnox I do not have any experience with alcohol based dyes, only water based. I did mix a small bath of dry water based dye with alcohol but it would not mix together so you are ahead of me in actually making alcohol based dye .... good for you!!! I am curious, what is the alcohol base you are using?
Alcohol base should work just great, as you say, will dry quickly and shouldn't lift the grain. Thanks for the note on this, keep me abreast of what you are doing.
Colin
Hardnox Thanks for this info ... I will go through this, appreciate the quick response
Colin
If you're going for an ethanol base you'll have to work faster and more precisely than when you're using water, so water base is just simpler to use (and simpler to fix if you mess up). You won't have to sand much after applying water base dye, a fine paper will do.
Thank you so much for this video! I was trying to understand dyes vs stains and you made it clear and easy to understand.
interesting discussion
thanks
James
Just watched your video on dye vs stain and learned a LOT. One problem with dyes that I've found is the tendency to get lapping when trying to use dye on a large surface such as a table top. I"ve seen suggestions that using an HVLP gun to spray it works better on large surfaces. Any thoughts?
Hi, thanks for making videos they help me a lot. Once the dye is mixed whats the shelf life?
Carmen Serrett Good question Carmen, I have had some mixed for 2+ years and it's fine, I don't even have to stir it. I do not recall seeing anything that talks about a shelf life for these aniline dyes, but experience tells me ... should be good for a few years anyway.
Hey man, thx, very useful, I will probably be using dyes now more often. Thx.
Nice article & presentation of differing processes, Staining & Dyeing. I want to know which process, Stain or Dye, is least likely to run or bleed or leech into an adjoining inlay strip, when clear coated. I am planning to dye some walnut to look like ebony & inlay the finishes strips of it, next to inlay banding of maple. I was also wondering how the stain or dye would effect it's gluing properties.
Would love to see it when you get it done, if decide to invest in house.
that was great! super informative! im wondering about alcohol based dyes. I know they dry alot faster than water based but considering that im working with a very rare expensive antique, are alcohol based dyes a better choice?
It's really difficult to answer a question like this because it leads to many more questions before a recommendation can be made, like what kind of wood is it? what kind of a look are you striving for? Is this a valuable heirloom piece? do you want Gloss, Matte, Satin? Lot of different variable and many different combinations of finishes to choose from.
My best suggestion would be to post something on the Forums at woodworkweb and I am out of room here already, sorry.
Great answered a lot of my questions I was waiting to hear about topcoats I have the waterbase die I’m thinking of putting a polyurethane over the top once it is dry?or Acrylic.
GO with shellac in either clear amber or garnet . easy to apply , repair
Thank you
If dyes are water based, they are more likely to lift/change with weathering? I am building a curly maple banjo. While it is fairly safe in my living room, if I am jamming outdoors in the evening (or with kermit the frog in a swamp), the dye may be prone to weathering. Laquering would of course seal the wood, but I prefer a non-laquered finish. Would a hard wearing oil (eg tung oil) seal a dye from weathering?
Very informative, thank you
Thanks for your comments :)
Colin
Hi. You may have answered this previously but I stripped the paint (my mistake) and original finish (a dark brown stain on light wood, for some reason) off a dresser that I want to use as a buffet. Many hours of work! How do you "finish" a piece that you dye? Would an oil work or do you need a sealer? Thanks. ; )
Another con for me using dyes is that I would have to store them in the house when the shop heat is off.
What is the shelf life on dyes?
Do you really need to wipe off the dye?
What about clear coats on top of the dye?
Will glue stick to dyed or partially dyed wood?
Thanks for the info! I will have to try a dye project soon. I am visualizing a project with multiple colors.
I've seen water dye on a plank of wood(maple like here) and then lacquer sprayed on top for the UV seal and give it a nice flashy finish.
Thank you Colin
Thanks so much for the explanation I have always wondered what the difference was but never knew anyone who knew. by the way I watch you a lot cause I like the way you talk. I'm guessing New Englander ?
Hi Kerry, thanks for the kind words. Actually I am from the west coast of Canada but many people tell me I sound like I am from eastern US, so you have some pretty keen hearing :)
Thanks again ... Colin
Thanks for the explanation!
I'm not sure about the wood - it's a cheap electric bass that i'm practicing on. It's currently a sunburst finish but I want to change it to a teal/turquoise transparent effect.
Currently doing lots of research but found that everyone has a different opinion. Thanks for the reply.
How deep does the dye actually penetrates if I were to soak my wood into the dye? And is there types of wood which absorbs dye better?
Thanks A MILLIONS for your tips. Great videos btw.
Hmmm, that's a really good question, and I'm not sure of an answer for you. I assume you or someone is going to be smoking the pipe so I would have some concerns about ingesting chemicals through the wood.
Don't know what to tell you, maybe more research, dying might be fine, but perhaps there are dyes that are made for this kind of project.
Good luck with your quest, sorry we couldn't help
Great to have you with us
Colin
I never new there were wood dyes. You said stains last outside forever. What about dyes? Do you have to seal the wood if it is going outside, for example a large planter? Thank you!!!
Thanks for the video! Getting that comparison is really helpful. I'd like to try an aniline dye on pine to achieve a dark finish, since I found it hard to achieve a more uniform dark on pine with an oil-based stain, even with a wood conditioner. Would you say that's the way to go on pine? Or perhaps dye first, then oil-based stain later? Theoretically, I think that could offer an interesting dimensionality and might make it come out more evenly. What do you think? TIA!
Can I use the dye first and then layer with a diluted oil-based stain on top? Are there any consequences? I know you shouldn't mix a sealer with a stain, but does it matter with dye and stain?
Hey Mr. Knecht, just lately I have used some black India ink to stain a fret board. What do you think about ink as a dye? Will it adhere to top coats of final finishes? Lacquer? Shellac? Varnish? Danish oil? Have you addressed this in a different video? Thanks! Your video was very good and informative to me!