2023 Chevy Silverado 1500 Custom VS Ram 1500 Tradesman: Which Affordable Truck Is Best?

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2024
  • Today I compare a 2023 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 Custom to a New Ram 1500 Tradesman!
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ความคิดเห็น • 150

  • @devildrifterX
    @devildrifterX ปีที่แล้ว +8

    I got a 2022 1500 Custom 4x4 and I'm loving it! Too many truck bros love to hate on the 2.7 but that quietness is quite wonderful as well as that instantaneous torque on tap

    • @jfunck1
      @jfunck1 ปีที่แล้ว

    • @coolazguy15
      @coolazguy15 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I love the Chevy 2.7L, laugh all you want. Small dick man!

  • @tkendr01
    @tkendr01 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    We just bought the Silverado with our son which works well with his large family. I have owned Chevy, Ford and Titans in the past. I am currently in a RAM 2500 Laramie Hemi 4x4 which is a completely different ride. Plenty of brand-loyalty for Chevrolet.

    • @davidporter7051
      @davidporter7051 ปีที่แล้ว

      I hope your 2500 serves you well. Our fleet didn't have such good fortune.

  • @jasonreyna7615
    @jasonreyna7615 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Notice how the side mirrors on the Chevy are connected to the body and not the window like all other brands. Little details like that make all the difference, that makes the truck more aerodynamic. Also helps give it and the sierra a much more sporty, fluid appearance

  • @ricardomerk2
    @ricardomerk2 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    I’ll take the Sylverado all day long.

  • @sharkskin3448
    @sharkskin3448 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Ben, did you mention that the Ram's v6 has etorque? It helps launch and increases city mpg. The downside might be repair costs.

  • @criticalthinker7822
    @criticalthinker7822 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    This video is digital gold. Thanks!

  • @dylan_talleyy
    @dylan_talleyy 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Watching the price drops on trucks in just under a year is insane. These were $50k at the beginning of the year and now you can get a 1500 Custom in my area for under 40k. Wild.

    • @danielloz8282
      @danielloz8282 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      And that is still expensive

    • @shaiapouf420
      @shaiapouf420 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@danielloz8282it was $20 then $60 now $40. buddy they raised the price $20. lol you get it

    • @crumblymunky
      @crumblymunky หลายเดือนก่อน

      New one in my area now 30k lol

  • @NavyGuy2OO7
    @NavyGuy2OO7 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I had a '13 Ram 1500 with the 3.6, its not a bad motor, pretty peppy and good millage for a truck.

  • @pixaxeprepper384
    @pixaxeprepper384 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Just bought a 2023 Chevy silverado 1500 Crew RST 4WD 6.2L EcoTech truck. Nice

  • @WethepeopleFreedom76
    @WethepeopleFreedom76 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I got a 22 custom Ltd with the 1st generation 4 cylinder no complaints only have 3500 though. It has the steering wheel controls multiflex tailgate and the black 20 inch wheels. I added the new eibach adjustable coilover kit tints gm carbon fiber look door trim kit and replaced all the halogen headlight bulbs to led.

  • @ringa8600
    @ringa8600 ปีที่แล้ว +16

    Great comparison. It's hard finding reviews of base model trucks (Chevy W/T would have been closer to the Tradesman though), let alone a side by side comparison.
    I was between these two but for the price they're asking the Nissan Titan S has been catching my eye.

    • @sharkskin3448
      @sharkskin3448 ปีที่แล้ว

      That's a great choice at this price point!

    • @kreep3r
      @kreep3r ปีที่แล้ว

      The 4 door frontiers look like luxury

  • @Brokeniggashateme
    @Brokeniggashateme ปีที่แล้ว +8

    If the ram had a sportier look and the hemi I’d def go with the ram but that Chevy even with the 4 cyl looks great!

  • @NLYS27
    @NLYS27 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Both trucks are great trucks. I grew up with Dodge and Chevy trucks and I daily drive a 1950 Dodge B2B halftone. But I learned to drive in my grandpas chevy, I used my grandpas chevy to haul mesquite, to clean up property and 12 hour road trips "1990 C1500 Silverado Trim 4.3L". I used to work on cars before the Army and now I'm disabled and I currently study Nuclear Engineering. The only real issue I have would be the 4 cylinder. If people who buy it and are planning on using their truck for towing or carrying heavy loads. I don't see it lasting at all, it's too small, the engine would have 3L minimum. and being on boost all the time will greatly reduce the life span of the engine. It's just a general rule of thumb. If you wanna make a turbo charged engine last as long as naturally aspirated then keep it off the boost as much as possible. Now if the the 4cyl is meant for the non working man pick up truck owner then perfectly fine.

  • @santiagoesparza1796
    @santiagoesparza1796 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Make another video of ram 1500 tradesman with a v8

  • @SuperQuantum69
    @SuperQuantum69 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Chevy definitely looks way better, sportier, imponent. BUT! which one is more reliable? Spending 40K on a truck just to get recalls after recalls or even engine failures.. Another good one Ben.

  • @mitchellestes4178
    @mitchellestes4178 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    You can get the 8.4 screen in the ram tradesman if you want

  • @mrsnap27
    @mrsnap27 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Thanks ! I like the Ram more for look and V6 ! 👍

  • @michaelstout7652
    @michaelstout7652 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Ram for sure. Great engine & transmission in the Ram. I owned never any issues, just 100% reliable

    • @traciweisenbachCITB
      @traciweisenbachCITB ปีที่แล้ว

      Chevy is the best, and ram has nothing but transmission problems, and rust problems. Chevy is the best, sooooooooo

  • @EJ-ok8nx
    @EJ-ok8nx ปีที่แล้ว +1

    great review . thank you!!

  • @Andrew-lk6wj
    @Andrew-lk6wj ปีที่แล้ว +3

    The ram was 4x4, and naturally aspirated, that little turbo 4 in the Silverado won't last nearly as long and the fuel efficiency sucks

  • @davidx4590
    @davidx4590 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I think the 5th gen tradesman w/Warlock package V6 would have been a tad better of a comparison in the looks dept, Wheels, sporty appearance, blacked out grill, 1inch raised ride height (in which both trucks would have probably been the same height)..etc & it's actually cheaper than the the ram reviewed here! As always, great Job Ben!

  • @jc7654
    @jc7654 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    it's a good review i liked it,

  • @rubenquinones3015
    @rubenquinones3015 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    I would definitely choose the ram due to the proven reliability of the V6 and better fuel economy than a 4 cylinder

    • @blang38
      @blang38 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I know this is shocking, but I do believe Ram is overstating fuel efficiency by a fairly wide margin . Fuelly reports the Chevy 2.7 at 18.9 combined and the Ram 3.6 at 18.4.

    • @davidporter7051
      @davidporter7051 ปีที่แล้ว

      Reliability of the 3.6?

    • @somerandom7398
      @somerandom7398 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@davidporter7051 the reliability of the 3.6 pentaster is reported to be better than their 5.7L and 6.2L V8 counterpart. HOWEVER, these are based on consumer reports, people talking about their V6 lasts longer than V8’s but what they don’t realize is the utilization of those engines. People are more likely to tow, haul, and off-road their V8’s whereas people who drive V6’s are more likely to use them for light towing and hauling and daily driving.

    • @somerandom7398
      @somerandom7398 ปีที่แล้ว

      So it would make sense that the V6 would be more “reliable”

  • @markjerstad4664
    @markjerstad4664 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Love the back to back comparisons section by section!

  • @jeffsfortniteclips
    @jeffsfortniteclips ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Definitely be hard to choose between them both

  • @alainpaquin627
    @alainpaquin627 ปีที่แล้ว

    I bought a used (10,000 km) 2021 Ram Classic Quadcab 4X4 with the 3.6l with a bunch of accessories & options for 40,500$ (CAN). I was also looking at the 2021 Siverado 1500 Custom 4X4 with the 2.7L and it was way more expensive with more km and less accessories & options and also less choices (color & number of units available). I must admit that I prefer the look of the Siiverado. As far as towing capacity, I don't tow above 3,000 pounds so the 3.6L does the job. 🙂

  • @ggamer882
    @ggamer882 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Just got a 2023 tradesman for my new work truck. Looks way better in black with blacked out headlights and tail lights.

    • @EdwinRodriguez-zt5fx
      @EdwinRodriguez-zt5fx 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      How much if you don't mind me asking?

    • @ggamer882
      @ggamer882 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@EdwinRodriguez-zt5fx I didn’t buy it my company did but all said and done it was around 41k

  • @cbruno12180
    @cbruno12180 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Gm
    All day long has the best pricing for all of thier vehicles from suvs to trucks to sports cars I’ve been building all diff specs this week and chevy comes in at least 4k less for similar trucks to ford ram and toyota hands down spec for spec rt now gm has the best pricing ford is ridiculous with having to add options as same with ram 😊

  • @ryanmccullion7367
    @ryanmccullion7367 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    If you’re concerned about image. Get the Ram. If you want an all around better truck get the Silverado.

  • @r.foster3275
    @r.foster3275 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    I would go with the Chevy but shame on them for using the old interior. That's just sorry.

    • @dtay8913
      @dtay8913 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I mean it's still better than the Rams at the price point

    • @Joeybago12
      @Joeybago12 ปีที่แล้ว

      Rams is straight plastic as well lol..no giant Tesla screen either.. in fact you'd have to pay in the 60ks for that. You can get the 13.4 inch screen with the 3 row seat for just over 50k on the chevy

    • @Davethegoat19
      @Davethegoat19 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Joeybago12 chevy lt and high trims have a new interior only

    • @miketampabay9446
      @miketampabay9446 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Davethegoat19 yes. And you can get one for around 51k. You won't find the big screen on a ram for under 60k

    • @jasonreyna7615
      @jasonreyna7615 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      To be fair...crew cab vs crew cab in 4x4 the ram costs more, you don't even get led map lights in the ram. The little details in the new silverado with the old interior offset the rams new base interior, I prefer my 23 custom over a friend's 22 lonestar interior overall. His truck costed more than mine in rwd crew cab with the hemi trim vs my crew custom 4x4 2.7l rally edition

  • @AlL-fw2cy
    @AlL-fw2cy ปีที่แล้ว +1

    V8 Hemi 1500 4X4 is $40k, less than the custom. Why not compare the custom to that? 4 banger with a turbo vs a slow V6, no shit the turbo wins.

  • @DwightCraneDenver
    @DwightCraneDenver ปีที่แล้ว +1

    All cars are affordable, they may just not be affordable to you.. but someone else is buying them.

  • @nyleslehnen4751
    @nyleslehnen4751 ปีที่แล้ว

    I have the Chevy white 2021 and i like it qwik great gas mileage

  • @codyheynen3052
    @codyheynen3052 ปีที่แล้ว

    50k for base model trucks? That’s wild.

  • @dennisondenatalie
    @dennisondenatalie ปีที่แล้ว

    I always thought the base model Chevy's looked more premium appearance and performance. I love my Custom trim and think it looks superior to the base model Ram's and Ford's.

  • @MrJEEPJT
    @MrJEEPJT ปีที่แล้ว

    As an additional note “2.7” “4” cylinder turbo with no foolish cylinder de-activation and dual fuel injection could be competitive against the more complex “2.7” Ford V-6 Eco-boost🧐🧐 Ford Eco-boost utilizes dual fuel injection 🧐🧐🧐 I suppose GM feels fouled intake valves won’t be an issue

  • @JWJTRAINOR
    @JWJTRAINOR 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    That’s not really fair considering that custom has some options

  • @joshbrinkman1513
    @joshbrinkman1513 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I will say it honestly comes down to brand loyalty but Chevy has had the same design for if not 10+ years where as ram has changed its looks like 3 times. RAM💪

  • @joshuamarchena7920
    @joshuamarchena7920 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Give me the Chevy !!!

  • @loyal4theway159
    @loyal4theway159 ปีที่แล้ว

    i miss sedans

  • @erniearruda8861
    @erniearruda8861 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Ram for me due to more paint choices,strong six cylinder engine that’s Been around since 2011 and it looks better, plus more availability on the lot then the Chevy in dealerships especially here in southern Canada 🇨🇦

  • @terryhook5518
    @terryhook5518 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Silverado looks way better

  • @AutoEnthusiastJC
    @AutoEnthusiastJC 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    not hard when the Ram is so much cheaper after incentives now.

  • @Elevation86
    @Elevation86 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    48k affordable, that's funny

    • @jeremyrichey4243
      @jeremyrichey4243 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yeah, My last truck was a Tundra 4x4 Longbed w/Work Truck (Vinyl seats and floors), came standard with Adaptive Cruise Control and trailer break. Got it for 36K 0% APR w/Steps and Bedliner. It was an absolutely fantastic truck, but having to replace it I ended up ordering the Chevy. Spent 47K for Work Truck Value Package, Work Truck Safety Package, Work Truck Package, Adaptive Cruise Control, Chevytec spray-on bedliner, Black Work steps, Front and rear Black molded splash guards, Rear wheelhouse liners, Multi-Flex Tailgate w/Lights. Truck prices are crazy and you have to compromise, but I think compared to Toyota/ford/dodge today, that the Chevy is a good deal.

  • @alanking6173
    @alanking6173 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Ram looks better

    • @traciweisenbachCITB
      @traciweisenbachCITB ปีที่แล้ว

      Chevy looks the best, sooooooo

    • @AD-eq4kn
      @AD-eq4kn 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I gotta go with the Chevy on looks. Looks like a beast and beefy

  • @lauragrace3270
    @lauragrace3270 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Really that ram has that small screen nah a pass

  • @JordanX_97YT
    @JordanX_97YT ปีที่แล้ว +62

    Who would want a 4Cylinder in a full sized truck? Complete waste

  • @ravenol392
    @ravenol392 ปีที่แล้ว

    ben hardy wher from city

  • @michaeljensen32
    @michaeljensen32 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Chevy Silverado custom all day with that 2.7

  • @stevenblack9324
    @stevenblack9324 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    This was not the best comparison. I think you skipped a level in the Chevy and could have gone with the Chevy WT for work truck.

  • @brandonmcfarland5200
    @brandonmcfarland5200 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    The Chevy Silverado 1500 Because The Ram 1500's Touch Screen Display Is To Small. That 2.7L Turbo Beats The Pentastar.

  • @chasecrockett1947
    @chasecrockett1947 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

    The chevy had an extra package for the black grill and remote start etc. add the the extra grand to the ram tradesman and you will have more creature comforts than the chevy. I dont trust a 4cyl running at max all the time, reliability cant be that great. Sure I wish the ram v6 had more torque but the quiet cabin and wonderful ride negates the need for speed. They are both much closer than I thought, but I just cant see a 4cyl taking the beating compared to the tried and true v6.

    • @ews360
      @ews360 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      2.7 turbo - 310 horse / 430 lb-ft torque @ 3,000 rpm. Ram 3.6 - 305 horse / 269 lb-ft torque @ 4,800 rpm. GM can tow over a ton more than Ram w/ 160 lb-ft of additional torque @ much lower diesel like rpm. The 3.6 is screaming. It's not about displacement or number of cylinders. The 2.7 V6 Ecoboost Ford has been around for 10 years. The 2.7 I-4 Turbomax for 5 years, & now Stellantis has 3.0 I-6 Hurricane. The old naturally aspirated engines are obsolete, as is defending their inadequate performance numbers.

    • @ram89572
      @ram89572 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@ews360 Yeah but it seems Stellantis effed up big with their turbo engine. Given how many police Durangos that are broken with that engine, it is more like a Hurricant

    • @ews360
      @ews360 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@ram89572 There is not yet any production of Durango w/ I-6 turbo 3.0 hurricane.

    • @ram89572
      @ram89572 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@ews360 Well maybe the story I saw was misreported then because I remember it saying some state police agency had hundreds of millions of dollars worth of them with numerous failures because of that engine.

  • @CarlosRodriguez-py1vx
    @CarlosRodriguez-py1vx 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Ram is the best

  • @MrJEEPJT
    @MrJEEPJT ปีที่แล้ว

    Chevy needs to paint their truck frames like their competitors do … That’s a big problem Also if they were going to go a “4” cylinder route don’t put in a cylinder de-activation keep it “4” cylinders always also Direct fuel injection only ??? How about future fouled up Intake valves ??? I’d vote Ram-1500 with 3.6 pentastar with multipoint fuel injection the rear coil suspension rides nice.
    GM needs to rethink their “WAX” coated frames as an “INSULT” to the customers spending thousands of dollars on a Silverado.
    I had a “2010” Silverado WT 1500 with the non cylinder deactivation engine and the chassis was rusting out….

  • @Weatherby406
    @Weatherby406 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    No 4low? Wtf

    • @jasonreyna7615
      @jasonreyna7615 ปีที่แล้ว

      You only get that with the z71 package with gm, for most 4H is all you need

    • @jeremyrichey4243
      @jeremyrichey4243 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      At first I thought no 4low, then I realized I'd only been into it about 3 times in the 5 years I'd had my last truck, and each of those times I switched back to 4hi because I didn't need 4low. That includes driving half way through Colorado and the Middle of Kansas in the winter when they closed down I70, over snow covered roads some of which were little mountain ones. Anyway, I just ordered the Chevy because my old truck got totaled, and the new Tundra's don't have a work truck package anymore. I think you can order a 2-way transfer case, but I figured why upgrade for something I never used. Guy's going off-roading might need it, but I never have.

    • @Weatherby406
      @Weatherby406 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@jeremyrichey4243 I use 4low all the time. Backing a heavy camper up a hill into the driveway, steep mountain roads hunting, bad boat launches, hooking trailers on soft ground. Just gives you more control. I understand not everyone uses it but for the price of these trucks it should have it.

    • @jasonreyna7615
      @jasonreyna7615 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Weatherby406 For the price you're right, Ram, Ford, Nissan and Toyota get you the 4L standard. I would've sucked it up and went with the new tundra if I needed 4L because those things look pretty sweet in person but since I would rarely need it I opted for the silverado.

    • @jeremyrichey4243
      @jeremyrichey4243 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Weatherby406 I don't have a boat, though I've been on a lot of soft ground, it's not been with heavy trailers. That said, definitely illustrates there are use cases for them. My old truck was 36K new w/0% APR, Adaptive Cruise, Steps, Bedliner, Integrated Brakes, etc... was a really nice vehicle. Just got totaled after 5 years of owning, and they gave me 34.5K for it. Reason why is the new ones prices are so high the old ones are worth a lot. I just put down 47K for a Chevy WT with the same features added, and while it's a compromise I'm happy with the truck. Not happy with the price but these are the times we live in.

  • @rayshawnrayborn6624
    @rayshawnrayborn6624 ปีที่แล้ว

    If you’re gonna go with soda pop bottle displacement on a truck engine. Might as well stick with the Ford 2.7l ecoboost. It’ll at least embarrass GM’s tiny 2.7l

    • @traciweisenbachCITB
      @traciweisenbachCITB ปีที่แล้ว

      Nothing will embarrass any of GM’s engines, soooooooooooooooooooo

    • @rayshawnrayborn6624
      @rayshawnrayborn6624 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@traciweisenbachCITB You are correct, they usually embarrass themselves

    • @vincemartinez3328
      @vincemartinez3328 ปีที่แล้ว

      😂

  • @parkeryigit4434
    @parkeryigit4434 ปีที่แล้ว

    Bro nice videos but speak a lil slower

  • @TheRealSandorClegane
    @TheRealSandorClegane ปีที่แล้ว

    Its 2023 do they really have to have such a dated looking little screen?

  • @matthewpatrick8484
    @matthewpatrick8484 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Ill take that ram all day what a waste for a 4 cylinder in that Chevy

    • @ews360
      @ews360 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      GM 2.7 turbo - 310 horse/430 lb ft torque @ 3,000 rpm. Ram 3.6 - 305 horse / 269 lb ft torque @ 4,800 rpm. Bad choice.

  • @brianhalliday2384
    @brianhalliday2384 ปีที่แล้ว

    You can't buy a bad American truck.

  • @terryhook5518
    @terryhook5518 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Chevy

  • @vortexrising2943
    @vortexrising2943 ปีที่แล้ว

    The answer is neither these arent affordable trucks 🤣 maybe a Toyota

  • @michaelsyufy7733
    @michaelsyufy7733 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Cheap steering wheel

  • @jravila4609
    @jravila4609 ปีที่แล้ว

    The rams are currently cheaper than that whwre I live but I can’t get over how ugly & outdated the infotainment system looks on the rams

  • @Oldjongcrow416
    @Oldjongcrow416 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    🔥👈

  • @Wildwestexpress3457
    @Wildwestexpress3457 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Not buy chevy 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎

    • @traciweisenbachCITB
      @traciweisenbachCITB ปีที่แล้ว

      DO NOT BUY A ford OR dodge 👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

    • @Wildwestexpress3457
      @Wildwestexpress3457 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Trac👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣i Weisenbach care Do not buy chevy 👎 👎

  • @traciweisenbachCITB
    @traciweisenbachCITB ปีที่แล้ว

    Chevy 4 life! Chevy is the best, unlike pos ford or dodge, and that’s a fact, sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

  • @raidersamson3356
    @raidersamson3356 ปีที่แล้ว

    The Silverado looks way better. The dodge looks old, ugly, and outdated.