My great grandpa passed in this, he was in the first coach and was killed instantly by the impact, he was supposedly a good guy that didn’t smoke or do any of that, thank you ottomatic for covering this, it means a lot
Very well done. The question is, why didn't UP put speed recorders on these very fast passenger engines, or retrofit them if they were not immediately available? Also note that "heavyweight" passenger cars were introduced after a series of horrific wrecks with early wooden cars. Then somebody had the great idea to go to "lightweight" cars, which folded up in this wreck. We traveled at high speed in both heavyweight and lightweight cars on CN. The ride in the heavyweights was wonderful, not like the lightweight roller skates. The 6 wheel trucks made a big difference, the truck equalization made bumps much smaller.
Approximately New Years 1965-1966, I was sleeping in a coach seat on the westbound NYC Cleveland Limited(?), coming back from an IBM interview at 79 mph. My alarm clock was "BUMBUMBUMBUMPBUMPBUMPBUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP Bump Bump B u m p!". Unhurt. Classic accordion, just missed a signal bridge, Corfu, New York. Supposedly pulpwood stuck in a switch frog at a CP. Some deaths in the next car back, which rolled. When I boarded, I could have turned either right or left, got lucky. Haven't found much news info on it.
20:14 Im noticing a similarity between this incident, and the wreck of the Broker in the fact that neither the K4s 2445, or the 835 apparently, seemed to have speedometers. Tho i suppose thats to be expected given how things were in this era of railroading.
Very few steam locomotives ever had speedometers fitted to them - in France, and some other places, they had speed recorders, which may have given a visual indication to the driver, but I'm not sure exactly what it could have been. They were analyzed after the run, and defaulting drivers called to the manager's carpet.
@@JohnDavies-cn3ro well, like I said, things like these were common for that era of railroading, atleast incidents like these have inspired the changes we now see on modern day Steam, Diesel, and Electric operations.
At a guess, the extremely fast running coming out of Barstow could have altered the engineers sense of speed. As a [now retired] long haul truck driver I'm aware of this phenomenon as one of my regular runs had a several hour long stretch of Interstate running on flat and level ground followed by a section crossing a set of high hills that was very twisty. The long time on the Interstate distorts the sense of speed and it required concentration and a checking of the trucks speedometer to negotiate the curvy section at safe speeds. In the 1940s, psychological factors such as this would not have been generally known or understood.
@@terrenceodgers5866 What's your point? This event happened decades ago, most likely before you were born. Standards of evidence have changed, along with the levels of technology acceptable in daily use.
@@Public-Citizen I agree with your summation. My comment refers to the obvious fact for that time, that even the cheapest motor vehicle had a speedometer. So, why not in some very expensive locomotives? And no one can accurately judge how fast anything is traveling, regardless of how experienced at driving,, be it on road or rail, they may be. And your comment is very pertinent to that observation. We should always remember, that even today, the gathering of forensic evidence, after the fact, is not always reliable. People still go to jail, who are later proved innocent of the charge/s originally leveled at them. I may not have been in this world at that time, but what I have come realize in the time I have been here, is that Humanity, generally speaking, is very fallible, and predictable, especially when accumulating and presenting 'evidence'.
@@terrenceodgers5866 Your point on speedometers and automobiles is well taken. However, railroadmen had since almost the beginning been accustomed to judging speed by their watch, the most accurate timepieces available for the era they were being used in, and meticulously maintained to assure that accuracy, and comparing the time against known mile and increment markers lineside. The locomotive involved in this accident was either built during the waning days of the Great Depression or during WWII, in either case such accessories as a speedometer were considered non-essential, something this accident quite obviously demonstrates is a dubious if not outright fallacious belief. I suspect the engineer on this run was more concerned with the timetable than in clocking his speed against the lineside markers, a contributing factor in the accident.
@@Public-Citizen - Indeed! Complacency within a structured mindset environment, such as in the old system of 'railroading' relying on time keeping, rather than proven and superior methods of speed accuracy, probably had just as much to do with the Transcon running off the rails, than we mere mortals will ever know.
Note: This was Train 223, not Train 3. Also, its full name was the Transcontinental Limited, not the Transcon; this might make it easier for anyone looking for more information.
Thank you! I hate it when these superficial internet 'experts' spout wildly inaccurate and misleading information. I knew darn well there was no train named the Transcon. Very poor research if he can't get the name right.
I';ll have to take a look for that spot the next time I come down the hill at dawn in train number 3. While I don't have the detail-oriented brain of a real train enthusiast, I was taken in by your well-researched account and ever so familiar names. Ironically, Amtrak's chronic delays due to freight trains holding it up mean there's no danger of any engineer trying to beat the clock.
No locomotive speed recording device may have been a contributing factor but it's easier to blame the engineer - however - in this case he does seem to have a high level of culpability.
A couple FEF’s were fitted with triple stacks. I think it had been done as an experiment, like the UP fitting Big Boy 4019 with smoke wings or converting Big Boy 4005 to oil burning.
The engineer got the blame, but the system that incentivized rule bending was culpable. These engineers were like fighter pilots of their day. Honor and pride drove many of them to great success and the RR executives took advantage of this to boost productivity in getting the most out of already high performing individuals. The power the railroads had in those days is hard to imagine today. The district supervisors had powers akin to a ship's captain at sea over a broad domain for many crews and huge numbers of rolling stock. When an order came down all the crews hopped to it with forceful determination in military-like subordination.
As somebody who works on vehicles for a living. How can you tell how fast you're going? If you don't have an instrument to tell you, it's very difficult for a person to both run a machine and do other types of things in this nature. So I personally believe while he may have been speeding. Some blame should go to Union Pacific for not having a speedometer in 835.
The fact that the locomotive was not equipped with a speedometer does not totally absolve the engineer. Cab crews were always acutely aware of keeping timetable schedule. They used their very accurate watches to accurately calculate their speed and timetable compliance by observing the time elapsed between milepost markers. A simple example would be one mile traveled in one minute means the speed is 60 miles per hour. It's clear from the report that engineer Parker knew when he left Barstow that his train was nine minutes behind schedule. The rear brakeman's logged entries documented that on the tangent (straight) trackage south of Barstow where the track speed limit was 90 MPH, Parker was actually running at 120. It was common in those days for crews to run flat out on tangent track in order to make up time, but engineers also knew that speed limits on curves had to be obeyed for the obvious reasons of basic physics. Parker had slowed down to 60 to comply with the limit for the stretch prior to the curve's restriction of 40. Why he failed to continue his speed reduction to the limit of 40 for the curve that caused the derailment may never be known.
@@roboftherock first off it's not a statement, it's a written comment so you got that wrong, second the comment doesn't report who or which engineer it's referring to? Stick to greeter at Walmart, law isn't your gig.
@@Makeitliquidfast A statement is "A definite or clear expression of something in speech OR WRITING". My statement stands. As for your final suggestion, it has implications of denigration. I regret I cannot take it up as that entity has no outlets here.
Not hard at all. It uses a small wheel riding on one of the engine wheels near the cab, and drives a speedometer dial via a flexible shaft. A speed recorder also marks the speed on a paper graph.
I like this reading, and the upfront sourcing. Maybe tone down the drama music a little bit next time - something a little more ambient, or perhaps sombre, would better fit the nature of this video. The action/suspense music doesn't fit unless you choreograph your reading to be timed to match the intensity of that music. There were only a couple of flubbed lines, and your tone and intonation were decently good, and I highly appreciate that you didn't "ham up" your reading of the source media - it felt respectful and relatively professional. It's hard to get narration spot on, having tried before, and you deserve to feel accomplished with this result.
The Interstate Commerce Commission, which was the relevant regulator at that time, simply stated the cause as "excessive speed on a curve". The fireman was too badly injured to be interviewed for the investigation and other crew, who would have been in other places in the train and attending to other duties, couldn't give any estimate of the speed (note: they may have been lying to protect themselves). They did, however, remember a violent brake application several seconds before the derailment, as if the engineer had realized the danger at the last instant. The engineer thought they were only doing about 50, but it was calculated that the train could not have overturned on that curve at less than 76 mph.
No locomotive speed recording device may have been a contributing factor but it's easier to blame the engineer - however - in this case he does seem to have a high level of culpability.
My great grandpa passed in this, he was in the first coach and was killed instantly by the impact, he was supposedly a good guy that didn’t smoke or do any of that, thank you ottomatic for covering this, it means a lot
Sorry to hear that
Sorry for your loss.
I'm sorry for your loss but smoking doesn't make you a good or bad guy.
At least he got some justice in the end.
Sorry for your loss
Came and watched after watching Thunderbolt 1000 Siren Productions video. I especially enjoyed the part about Dining Car Steward J A Courtney.
Very well done.
The question is, why didn't UP put speed recorders on these very fast passenger engines, or retrofit them if they were not immediately available?
Also note that "heavyweight" passenger cars were introduced after a series of horrific wrecks with early wooden cars. Then somebody had the great idea to go to "lightweight" cars, which folded up in this wreck.
We traveled at high speed in both heavyweight and lightweight cars on CN. The ride in the heavyweights was wonderful, not like the lightweight roller skates. The 6 wheel trucks made a big difference, the truck equalization made bumps much smaller.
Approximately New Years 1965-1966, I was sleeping in a coach seat on the westbound NYC Cleveland Limited(?), coming back from an IBM interview at 79 mph. My alarm clock was "BUMBUMBUMBUMPBUMPBUMPBUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP Bump Bump B u m p!". Unhurt. Classic accordion, just missed a signal bridge, Corfu, New York. Supposedly pulpwood stuck in a switch frog at a CP. Some deaths in the next car back, which rolled. When I boarded, I could have turned either right or left, got lucky.
Haven't found much news info on it.
Now this was a great story! Finally shining some light on this wreck
Yo amethyst
Why do you have smoke deflectors before?
An excellent presentation. Thank you.
This is one of those stories where you see it coming given the previous record of the engineer and condolences to all those lost.
Last I knew (1990s) this beautiful station was still in existence.
20:14 Im noticing a similarity between this incident, and the wreck of the Broker in the fact that neither the K4s 2445, or the 835 apparently, seemed to have speedometers. Tho i suppose thats to be expected given how things were in this era of railroading.
Very few steam locomotives ever had speedometers fitted to them - in France, and some other places, they had speed recorders, which may have given a visual indication to the driver, but I'm not sure exactly what it could have been. They were analyzed after the run, and defaulting drivers called to the manager's carpet.
@@JohnDavies-cn3ro well, like I said, things like these were common for that era of railroading, atleast incidents like these have inspired the changes we now see on modern day Steam, Diesel, and Electric operations.
Sp didn't have speedometers in their C classes of 2-8-0 locomotives
@@Dannyedelman4231Guess that just goes and proves the point further then about that era of railroading
@darkchaotix1productions326 very true and the C class 2-8-0 locomotives barely got over 50 mph
At a guess, the extremely fast running coming out of Barstow could have altered the engineers sense of speed.
As a [now retired] long haul truck driver I'm aware of this phenomenon as one of my regular runs had a several hour long stretch of Interstate running on flat and level ground followed by a section crossing a set of high hills that was very twisty. The long time on the Interstate distorts the sense of speed and it required concentration and a checking of the trucks speedometer to negotiate the curvy section at safe speeds.
In the 1940s, psychological factors such as this would not have been generally known or understood.
In a court of law, judging speed is unreliable evidence.
@@terrenceodgers5866 What's your point?
This event happened decades ago, most likely before you were born.
Standards of evidence have changed, along with the levels of technology acceptable in daily use.
@@Public-Citizen I agree with your summation. My comment refers to the obvious fact for that time, that even the cheapest motor vehicle had a speedometer. So, why not in some very expensive locomotives? And no one can accurately judge how fast anything is traveling, regardless of how experienced at driving,, be it on road or rail, they may be.
And your comment is very pertinent to that observation.
We should always remember, that even today, the gathering of forensic evidence, after the fact, is not always reliable. People still go to jail, who are later proved innocent of the charge/s originally leveled at them.
I may not have been in this world at that time, but what I have come realize in the time I have been here, is that Humanity, generally speaking, is very fallible, and predictable, especially when accumulating and presenting 'evidence'.
@@terrenceodgers5866 Your point on speedometers and automobiles is well taken.
However, railroadmen had since almost the beginning been accustomed to judging speed by their watch, the most accurate timepieces available for the era they were being used in, and meticulously maintained to assure that accuracy, and comparing the time against known mile and increment markers lineside.
The locomotive involved in this accident was either built during the waning days of the Great Depression or during WWII, in either case such accessories as a speedometer were considered non-essential, something this accident quite obviously demonstrates is a dubious if not outright fallacious belief.
I suspect the engineer on this run was more concerned with the timetable than in clocking his speed against the lineside markers, a contributing factor in the accident.
@@Public-Citizen - Indeed! Complacency within a structured mindset environment, such as in the old system of 'railroading' relying on time keeping, rather than proven and superior methods of speed accuracy, probably had just as much to do with the Transcon running off the rails, than we mere mortals will ever know.
Excellent story and delivery!
Overspeed and pride caused this accident.
My auntie died in the second car and was killed by the impact she didnt have time to react
Note: This was Train 223, not Train 3. Also, its full name was the Transcontinental Limited, not the Transcon; this might make it easier for anyone looking for more information.
Thank you! I hate it when these superficial internet 'experts' spout wildly inaccurate and misleading information. I knew darn well there was no train named the Transcon. Very poor research if he can't get the name right.
Thanks, nice presentation. I know this area well.
You do such a a great job. Thanks
Anyone who operates these locomotives for a living knows the difference between 70 MPH and 40 MPH. The driver was reckless.
Union Pacific didn't even install a speedometer on the locomotive, so part engineer part company recklessness
I';ll have to take a look for that spot the next time I come down the hill at dawn in train number 3. While I don't have the detail-oriented brain of a real train enthusiast, I was taken in by your well-researched account and ever so familiar names. Ironically, Amtrak's chronic delays due to freight trains holding it up mean there's no danger of any engineer trying to beat the clock.
No locomotive speed recording device may have been a contributing factor but it's easier to blame the engineer - however - in this case he does seem to have a high level of culpability.
You never know what's going to happen. This is a well narrated story.
Great video. I didn’t know UP had 3 stacks on any of their fefs
A couple FEF’s were fitted with triple stacks. I think it had been done as an experiment, like the UP fitting Big Boy 4019 with smoke wings or converting Big Boy 4005 to oil burning.
The engineer got the blame, but the system that incentivized rule bending was culpable. These engineers were like fighter pilots of their day. Honor and pride drove many of them to great success and the RR executives took advantage of this to boost productivity in getting the most out of already high performing individuals. The power the railroads had in those days is hard to imagine today. The district supervisors had powers akin to a ship's captain at sea over a broad domain for many crews and huge numbers of rolling stock. When an order came down all the crews hopped to it with forceful determination in military-like subordination.
Excellent job!
A tragic accident which could have avoided, sounds like excessive speed was a contributing factor ( i am only going by watching this story ).
As somebody who works on vehicles for a living. How can you tell how fast you're going? If you don't have an instrument to tell you, it's very difficult for a person to both run a machine and do other types of things in this nature. So I personally believe while he may have been speeding. Some blame should go to Union Pacific for not having a speedometer in 835.
Normally, speed was determined by timing themselves from one mile marker to the next.
The fact that the locomotive was not equipped with a speedometer does not totally absolve the engineer. Cab crews were always acutely aware of keeping timetable schedule. They used their very accurate watches to accurately calculate their speed and timetable compliance by observing the time elapsed between milepost markers. A simple example would be one mile traveled in one minute means the speed is 60 miles per hour. It's clear from the report that engineer Parker knew when he left Barstow that his train was nine minutes behind schedule. The rear brakeman's logged entries documented that on the tangent (straight) trackage south of Barstow where the track speed limit was 90 MPH, Parker was actually running at 120. It was common in those days for crews to run flat out on tangent track in order to make up time, but engineers also knew that speed limits on curves had to be obeyed for the obvious reasons of basic physics. Parker had slowed down to 60 to comply with the limit for the stretch prior to the curve's restriction of 40. Why he failed to continue his speed reduction to the limit of 40 for the curve that caused the derailment may never be known.
Great video thank you
Ooooh! This is gonna be good 👍
Is the river bridge at 27:35 the Route 66 /National Trails bridge over the Mojave River (although now rebuilt)?
On British Locomotives speedometers were uncommon until the 1950’s ( Riddles BR Standard Class Locomotives)
Watch on 1.25x speed... you're welcome.
UP FEF-3 835 RIP
There never found the whiskey flask the engineer was drinking from
That is a libelous statement.
@@roboftherock first off it's not a statement, it's a written comment so you got that wrong, second the comment doesn't report who or which engineer it's referring to? Stick to greeter at Walmart, law isn't your gig.
@@Makeitliquidfast Can't do that, they don't have any outlets here.
@@Makeitliquidfast A statement is "A definite or clear expression of something in speech OR WRITING". My statement stands. As for your final suggestion, it has implications of denigration. I regret I cannot take it up as that entity has no outlets here.
How hard would it be to put a speedometer on the engine?
Not hard at all. It uses a small wheel riding on one of the engine wheels near the cab, and drives a speedometer dial via a flexible shaft. A speed recorder also marks the speed on a paper graph.
i didnt know that the up fef 3 had a wreck
I like this reading, and the upfront sourcing. Maybe tone down the drama music a little bit next time - something a little more ambient, or perhaps sombre, would better fit the nature of this video. The action/suspense music doesn't fit unless you choreograph your reading to be timed to match the intensity of that music. There were only a couple of flubbed lines, and your tone and intonation were decently good, and I highly appreciate that you didn't "ham up" your reading of the source media - it felt respectful and relatively professional. It's hard to get narration spot on, having tried before, and you deserve to feel accomplished with this result.
I had no idea that an fef has wrecked before
1.25 playback sounds best
Also in Spain and Japan train crashes do to drivets trying to make up loss time
Wasthis incident real?
Sadly, yes alco
@@Doorsmaster999 😭
What?
@@calebharris1080 Sad about it.
I know the landscape looks like a Hollywood set, but that was pretty real indeed.
She is a beautiful train
Is fef-2 or fef-1
It’s AY-say.
Cause? Engineer's fault for going too fast? Fireman did notell engineer?
The Interstate Commerce Commission, which was the relevant regulator at that time, simply stated the cause as "excessive speed on a curve". The fireman was too badly injured to be interviewed for the investigation and other crew, who would have been in other places in the train and attending to other duties, couldn't give any estimate of the speed (note: they may have been lying to protect themselves). They did, however, remember a violent brake application several seconds before the derailment, as if the engineer had realized the danger at the last instant.
The engineer thought they were only doing about 50, but it was calculated that the train could not have overturned on that curve at less than 76 mph.
You just love the sound of your own voice.... putting me to sleep with your drone
😖
Would have been nice to have more pictures....it is You Tube you know..not a pod cast!! Sad!
Insurance Job
As real as the nose on your face!
jackknifed
No locomotive speed recording device may have been a contributing factor but it's easier to blame the engineer - however - in this case he does seem to have a high level of culpability.