Are Power Boosts TOO BIG In Dragon Ball Super?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- Are Power Boosts TOO BIG in Dragon Ball Super? How Strong Is Android 17? How Strong Is Majin Buu? How Strong Is Krillin? How can Android 17, Majin Buu, and Krillin fight Super Saiyan Blue Goku? Did they power up TOO MUCH beyond the realm of believability? Laughingstock Media and Dragon Ball Nation discuss in this video analyzing the Dragon Ball Super anime and manga!
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If Android 17 could get this strong, doesn't that mean creating Cell was pointless? He's suppose to be the perfect being but got passed by an earlier creation of Dr. Gero
Cell would obviously be stronger than 17 if he was still alive. Dude has Frieza cells so 4 months of training + Zenkai boosts because of his Saiyan cells would make him ridiculous.
Phillip Hughes The thing about 17 and 18 ... They were made to kill Goku... So In my opinion they needed to get stronger to wreck Goku because of Goku's nature of training... I think Cell was the final piece of gero's plan if the Cyborgs 17,18,16 went crazy against him. He would kill Goku and have his revenge of 17 And 18.
Phillip Hughes I hate people who say this
1.Gero can not make him train he had no control over the Androids
2.Cell can train too
Don't forget that the Only Reason Cell became as powerful as he did, Was Because Of The Absorbtion Of 17 & 18. Cell was pretty weak at first. He HAD to have the powers of 17 & 18 integrated into himself to become the Perfect Bio-Android.
Phillip Hughes Who was 17 training with all this time? Yogi Bear? Bambi? The Great Deku Tree??? He doesn't have a training partner, especially not any gods, to get that strong. Goku and Vegeta had godly near death training, and fought gods to get to where their at. 17 was designed to be absorbed by Cell. That's his purpose. Gero never designed the Androids to get stronger on their own, especially not to be stronger than his final work, Cell. This is all Toriyama's fuck up. He gave everyone a plot induced buff, to keep the weaker characters relevant. This was only done to keep all the other characters in the story.
if freiza trains in the room of spirit for 3 years he will shit on whis with less then 20 percent of his power😂
Jason Moxey truuu frieza is honestly op if you consider his potential. omg
elder could unlock his unlimited potential and hed become the strongest being.
***** idk power level is important saying its not is kinda fullish
***** who told you frieza is stronger than whis?
Wehn Goku was born he was a rock buster lel.... When Frieza was born he was a casual multi planet and star buster, when perfect cell was born he was solar system level, when Buu was born he was Galaxy level. If those fuckers train in the chamber for one year they'd be grand priest level. They really need to tone it down on the huge power boosts. If broly trained for a second he'd be Zeno level
frieza would die in the room of spirit and time before he gets to fight whis
Krillin one week before got hurt by bullets and was weaker than when he was a kid.
Krillin one week after kicks Gohan's ass.
Consistency.
Spencerwalker21 still, in a lifetime, Krillin couldn't match even Frieza in Namek by the Buu arc. Then, he gets much weaker and in a short time is able to take on someone hundreds of times stronger than Friezas final Namek form. I love Super, but the power scale writing is lazy and confusing. Still, you may have a point in it being a greater time jump than a week
Spencerwalker21 well, ya, of course a little bit haha. But, I just feel like they got "God power". They made a huge deal of that. That should have been a much higher bar to reach. If that makes sense haha. Also, Super will have Goku and Krillin getting hurt by bullets out of nowhere when Master Roshi was catching machine gun bullets in Dragon Ball. They just don't seem to care about consistency. Dragonball Z was rediculous with the inconsistent Zenkai boosts though for sure.
Nick Cerino he just look at how strong gohan became in ssj2 he became much more powerfull looks like blue in dbs it is exactly blue when it comes to power that makes sense since each time ssj is like kaioken times 2 like wtf
He’s still weak. He just beat Gohan with strategy... and also because Gohan was using 1% of his power.
Another small, but noticeable boost would have to be Master Roshi. He became irrelevant back in the King Piccolo arc, but just because he wanted to, he decided to fight Frieza henchmen, each one without a doubt stronger than Raditz, and take down many of them? I'm not buying it, he hasn't even been training. Goku had to train with a KAI to overcome Raditz by a long shot for christ's sake!
Yea, I don't even get why he was there in the first place. Imo, he shouldn't have been. But oh wait, it was recently revealed that he's been "secretly training". Even we don't know when he started, or why he started, or why it's even relevant, we're supposed to just accept it.
That's nothing compared to the bullshit "secret training" that he did which is downright lazy and contrived nonsense that exists because reasons.
But that’s sadly what dbz has become, simply fanservice. I want the compelling stories of actually overcoming your fears and using that strength to guide you!
yea Roshi could've scrapped Raditz to begin with if he was even a fraction of his potential then
Yes they are. I can get behind guys like Majin buu or Gohan being able to catch up to Goku and Vegeta's Regular ssj forms, but guys like krillin and 17, who trained casually for a few years being able to actually spar with ssj blue Goku? Get out of here. I feel the problem with Super(anime) is that they treat Ssj blue far too casually. I prefer the manga because in the manga they treat it as something that's uber powerful but should only be used as a last resort.
Giovan 483 I 100% agree with you, they were training with God's fucking body guard and some earth people trusting at regular gravity, no hyperbolic time chamber and still able to touch them and even make them struggle? Fuck outta here.
you speak the truth
remember that krillin couldnt dodge a bullet couple episodes before this
Vampirerockstar that just proves my point even further.
First off, Dragon Ball Super is all about Ki control, something that Krillin has flatout been confirmed to be the best at. Goku was supressing himself, by the way. He held back SIGNIFICANTLY against Krillin.
Second, 17 didn't 'casually' train. He flatout says he was training the entire time since his revival. I wouldn't be surprised if he was stronger than Whis. (He isn't. I'm just giving an example)
I know how you feel, though. I had to go back and rewatch every episode of Dragon Ball Krillin was involved in to find out any information about the fact he excels in Ki control.
DBN made a good point about Buu. There's a lot of lore around Majin Buu that we don't know about Buu. It's possible that in a few hours he could progress as far as he did, but in only a few hours that's a massive jump.
At least Buu is credible.
17 is just pure bullshit.
Even Frieza was aware of avoiding Buu (retconned and according to F, but still established). If they wanted another Earth fighter that could at least get to SSJ level, they should do it with Piccolo, reintroduce Uub or since Potara fusions are only an hour now, fuse Tien and Krillin.
Kern Albert i don't like the idea of retconning the end of Dragon Ball. I'd rather they go past it, because I personally hate the ending of the manga. If they brought Uub in now and trained him up to fight in this tournament, I'd fucking drop the series. 97-2017 would be my investment as a Dragon Ball fan if they did this.
Why would you drop the series? I don't quite follow you.
Kern Albert it would be extremely poor writing. Goku goes off to find a young boy, scales back his own training to help Uub learn ki control and tap into his hidden power, and teaches him how to fight? There's good retcons and there are bad ones. This would be a bad retcon.
Yes, yes it is. If they *showed* how then yes. He'll even a little flashback would help
LORD POPO but you're not adding the fact that Goku had all types of special training and 17 doesn't even seem like the type to train, WTF would he be training for.
LORD POPO I'm not talking about just his training with Whis. His training throughout all 3-4 series period. Therefore Goku unlocking a new SSJ form or getting stronger is believable, because that's what he constantly does an is known for. 17 isn't.
LORD POPO sure Super power scaling has an always will be trash. And there are two different versions of that saga, I believe the manga has an adaptation as well. It's a selective opinion.
LORD POPO lol as you can see Dbs power scaling is all over the place. I wouldn't even want to try to make sense of it cause it doesn't make any sense.
LORD POPO They trained for it. Nothing special, just hard work. Frieza in 4 months was ridiculous and 17 is an asspull.
According to Herms's translation, Goku's dialogue is more along the lines of:
"I'll try not to kill you."
Not to mention that it was just a spar where both characters weren't trying to kill each other, SSB has great Ki control, and Android 17 himself believed that Goku would've won the fight if they both went all-out.
Obviously I'm still watching the video, but I just bought into #17 having 10 years to train to close the gap as much as he did. Trunks, I chalked it up to fan service, even though when the arc was announced I predicted he'd be between SSJ3 and SSG level. Now his boosts in the anime, vs Zamasu and Merged Zamasu were straight bullshit. I don't care if it was a transformation, but that was a straight ass pull, even if he learned the basics of god ki, it happened off screen. If it was fleshed out better, no worries.
Kryptonian Saiyan the thing about zamasu is that he is a god, with access to the knowledge of God ki, add to the fact that he's a fighting prodigy and stole Gokus physicallly far superior body and saiyan biology, I'd say his power level was justified. Although I will admit that merged zamasu and Ssj Blue vegetto are a little contrived when it comes to power scaling.
Kryptonian Saiyan The biggest issue is that Dragon Ball Super doesn't explain shit. If they had only shown what the fuck these characters do to get as strong as they do is very infuriating. If they had shown Vegeta attempting to unlock god Ki in Trunks, that would have made sense. I can accept 17 getting as strong as he does, as we don't know how the hell Androids work, for all we know Android 17 might had been a prodigy back when he was regular human + his android abilities. But even then, I wish they had thrown in some sort of bullshit training method with 17
navels ♥ I have a theory that I don't really believe is the case but Toei Animation could right it in to explain why 17 is so strong. I know this is technically "filler" but remember a few episodes ago when Goku and Krillin went to the forest of illusions and fought all the illusion of their old foes? Well, what if Toei says that 17 took a trip to that forest and faced off against the illusion of Cell. Since, Cell sort of became the androids enemy and 17 fought him then lost (getting absorbed) that could have been something for him to concur and get stronger. I know that's kind of a stretch but I'm just saying they could because they've been giving a lot of poor explanations for stuff anyways.
Luykis Wamhoff you know that's actually not bad, they could use that as their power level booster
ARE ALL TRAINING METHODS EQUAL? THROWING PUNCHES AND TRAINING ON AN ISLAND IS THE SAME AS TRAINING UNDER GRAVITY WHILE FIGHTING FANCY ROBOTS IS THE SAME AS TRAINING UNDER GODS AND IN A SPECIAL DIMENSION ? IF ALL TRAINING METHODS ARE EQUAL THEN WHY BOTHER TRAINING WITH WHIS?
Android 16 is stronger than 17 and 18 .Android 17 was weaker than SSJ3 when he got wiped out by super buu and then gave his energy to SSJ3 goku. So he wasn't able to reach SSJ3 goku level between the cell arc and 7 years later in the buu arc but 2-3 years later he went from below SSJ3 goku to SSJB . Are you guys willing to say that 17 was stronger than majin vegeta in the buu arc ?
So android 17 is stronger than goku black ?Having a particular power level at a given point in time doesn't equal your potential to get stronger . Its a stupid argument that doesn't even hold water with people like goku vs vegeta . How did 17 get stronger ? Doing push ups? what mundane training made him SSJB level ? Its idiotic and makes no sense along with the fact that future android 17 and 18 didn't get any stronger while in constant combat for years.
Gohan defeated Lavender who blinded him and he couldn't sense his power level and he was getting weaker from the poison yet gohan was able to use his ears and Ki-eco location where he could dodge an attack that touched his hair folicle beating Lavender but weak ass krillin blinding gohan and disabling his ability to sense ki is a big deal how?
Android 17 is officially stronger than goku black
IcYGodZ No
Creeperman129 17 is around gokus power and black os stronger then goku in ssb imo
Creeperman129 its pretty obvious
Black > Goku > 17
IcYGodZ to be fair..... goku black didnt have years to train like android 17.......but if bla
the power boosts were always huge. the only reason why people are bitching is because they think everyone matches Goku in ssb when that's not the case at all
Kendrick BaldwinTV The problem is that Goku uses ssj blue way to casually.
Kendrick BaldwinTV but it destroys the point of a transformation. It's suppose to show that when someone is fighting the highest form, shit is about to go down because this person must need it
Then why is everyone able to force Goku into using a form that's uber OP? And don't tell me that it's"Ki control"! Goku's been expertly controlling his ki for decades! Someone like Krillin shouldn't even be remotely close to Goku's base form pre-DBS, let alone his base form NOW which rivals Vegito's during his fight with Buuhan!
Giovan 483 I agree, he does. Ssb is suppose to be this amazing, godly, all powerful transformation and yet he uses it for everything. I can understand why people would be upset, hell we've seen it so much that I'm starting to miss the classic golden forms because they became such a rare sight.
I just don't agree with everyone assuming that all of sudden the blue form is extremely weak just because he uses it a lot. I seriously doubt guys like krillin, 17 and buu comes even close to matching its power. It's damn near impossible
It seems though 17 can match Blue without Kaioken. That is extremely concerning.
maybe if they stopped neglecting non saiyan characters they would be strong and wouldn't need power boosts out the wazoo.
let this be a lesson.....STOP RELYING ON GOKU AND VEGETA ALL THE TIME. makes the anime boring when you have a crap load of characters and only a few of them are useful. hopefully all these characters they are bringing back won't just be for one arc.
"why did goku go ssjblue?" MARKETING!
The power scaling went off the rails back in the Buu saga when Goten and Trunks went SSJ at the ages of 5 and 6 respectively!
Even that made more sense
I never even liked the idea that 17 and 18 were stronger than frieza back in Z, in fact in my opinion the whole Cell arc should have come before frieza, i dont like how a man made earth creature had the potential to just fly into space and beat up the fucking empeor of the universe. Robots < Space tyrant any day....
Even Hartwick Cell had frieza's dna in him. And honestly, frieza becoming stronger than ssj blue in 4 months is the biggest bs in the series. And he just proclaimed himself emperor just because he was stronger than many other races. He wasn' really an emperor, just a strong alien that thinks he is one.
I’m afraid you have missed my point entirely, i am simply talking from a story perspective, the Cell arc is a much more grounded earth based story that centers around time travel and mad science, as great an arc as it is, it just lacks the epic feel of the frieza saga, there’s a good reason why to many feel it should have been the end of the series. i mean think about how little the galaxy viewed us, the saiyans saw earth as being so beneath them that they send a baby to conquer it. And the fact that later we learn that some mad scientist can create things so strong not only could they destroy the Saiyan race but the emperor of the universe himself it just doesn’t flow right. i am not saying that there wasn’t a good story reason for Cell being stronger at the time there totally is im just saying the series feels like the sagas should have been swapped
I agree, but that got fixed in Revival of F.
Buu and Trunks were "making all kinds of gains". I wish I could recover this fast from weightlifting and parkour training.
It actually makes sense for Freiza to gain so much power from normal training. From what we know about the Frost Demons, their normal power is difficult to handle and they create suppression forms to help make it easier to manage their power. Prior to Super, Freiza had been in his most restrained form constantly, basically doing everything he could to AVOID pushing himself.
Going from his limiter forms to staying in his true form just on it's own would be like a real life person going from a lifetime of bedrest to light workouts every other day. You would see a huge difference in the person relative to what they could accomplish even if the workout would be basically nothing compared to someone who works out hard on a regular basis.
to the people saying goku suppressed his power in blue....WHY WOULD HE GO TO HIS GOD FORM JUST TO LOWER HIS POWER LEVEL THAT LOW there is no point in the god form WHATSOEVER if this was if 17 stood up to ss3 goku then that would have been believable but krilllen, MAKES ZERO SENSE. That kamehameha should have desentegrated krilllen, 17, and 18, in all reality
Fried Chicken tho Goku used blue to krillen to show there are fighters this strong and In an interview with a writer of DBS which was approved by toriyama said that 17 has a lot of potential
Camden Mcclister 17 is an android...atleast explain how he can get strong enough to rival gods ss3 like I said at most. And krilllen should know people are that strong because he was present for beerus, golden frieza, hell even universe 6 vs 7
Fried Chicken tho ya but dude That's literally what it was suppose to mean when he went ssb he even said it they're be strong opponents like this idk what you're trying to argue about
So he could control his ki why go ss1 With no ki control and kill them beerus slapped bulma a. And he is an universe buster so bulma has the durability if the universes go back and watch whistle training
Johnny Doe people saying all theses other forms don't have power control. We have a literal arc with them as perfect sayians controlling their ki. It's retarded to go god powerful to scale back down to your base
“Maybe there’s some room of spirit and time kinda thing, that’s probably not a thing”. Black Frieza “I found a room of spirit and time kinda thing” 🤣
I kinda wanna see how the manga handles it, I'm reading the manga now and I honestly have to say I love the manga SO MUCH MORE
HenryGogeta
the manga is much better than the anime
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@@reptilian_geneticist Yup, how dare I enjoy something. It was so wrong of me.
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In Z they had much better explanations: Legendary transformation, birth form, excruciating gravity training, room of spirit & time, unlocked hidden potential, trained (for years & years) saiyan biology, absorption, fusion.
Freeza is "I trained for 4 months", Trunks is "rage boost", & 17 is "I got stronger too." We need either lore expansion or a montage like Vegeta's when he first transformed.
In my opinion 17's power is like how Tsunade's 100 healing jutsu works, where he would put so much back at the end of the day. So over the course of 10 years I could see his power rivaling that of ssb goku if that is the case.
The writing in the show clearly doesn't give any shits to explain power levels or why people get super strong for no reason.
Years of training with a Angel and this fucking android from the cell saga was able to fight against that?
Bullshit...
Almost everyone is a universal buster now.
That's the problem.
I have a feeling that goku has been going super ssj blue but still holding back, this way he builds confidence in the other characters bc they think they are a lot stronger than what they actually are.
How about Radditz to Freeza
So goku went from 900 to 150000000 in no time
That's a big percentage increase
also* 17> Krillin > Hit xD
8701F hit>>>>>>>>>krillin
Brock stop being dumb with krillen yall dummy as people are killing me
8701F
both power ups are idiotic
When Hit survived that 10x Kaioken SsB kamehameha wave thats when power scaling was completely fucked up
Pimp C Murrda Bruh Goten and Trunks going SSJ tho
In general the SSB Kaioken is bad written cause they didn't explain how the thing work...
Pimp C Murrda logically speaking how is goku not stronger than beerus after a kaioken times 20 blue? Makes no sense
The first weird boost in all of dragonball was when goku got the zenkai after his ginyu scuffle
yea going from a few hundred thousands to several milions.
not to mention ssj was an asspull (which happened ON THE SAME DAY)
+vincent SSJ was built up priory too it happening... Trunks learning the spirit bomb and absorbing that shit into a sword and one shotting a Vegito level character was an asspull.
Cell Jr. was cool but an asspull i just watch super with a open mind like any other anime
LORD POPO lmao
He really did get fucked up tho
One thing we need to keep in mind about 17 vs Blue is that SSJ Blue is all about ki control. in my opinion Goku can ramp that form from nothing to everything. Making it the ideal form to test/pressure his friends.
Honestly I wish we got more hacks that only worked against super strong characters so the series could focus more on the skill, as opposed to the strength of each fighter.
Like, an ability that causes all the energy you use to just burn away, making any attempts to use large amounts of Ki both pointless and stamina draining.
Or an ability that drains ambient Ki passively that allows absolute weaklings to suddenly equal anyone they fight.
Little things that force the series to stop focusing on strength and power so we can get more interesting brawls.
What about Super Saiyajin God Super Saiyajin Son Goku just holding back really, really hard? It's doesn't make that much sense, but since the form is all about ki control, he could lower it a lot. That's something he did back then before the Cell Games started.
Then why not use Super Saiyan? lol Goku didn't need to use SSB to test #17... seeing as how the former tested Skinny Good Buu just fine in his base form.
how does holding hands with 5 sayians make goku strong again i forgot
It's a ritual. It's a mystical power. "It's magic."
Jin Jusuke how is that different from the magic used to make the z fighters stronger
Not all magic are the same. Magic doesn't necessarily make sense. It's a plot device. The ritual is based of a forgotten legend.
Let's not forget goku did the kamehameha wave first try with out practice and roshi took years to get it right
What's your point?
50 years in fact.
then , every character in the crew is busting out Kamehameha's like its no body's business, including fkin yamcha, lol.
Or when Kid Goku would get beat down, only to come back and win, with no extra training or specific power boost at the time.
Just Ivan even the different levels of sayian is getting a little stupid , you intro red only to have blue come out a little later
questluvdakid24 creating a move is very different from learning a move. Also Roshi is hot trash
also their is tagoma going from ginyu force to like super buu - mystic gohan level
Then got his body stolen by ginyu
They were too big in Dragon Ball Z...so yes, they are too big in Super as well.
Doctopus No it's not much worse than Z
Yes, it is! Unlike Z, Goku now has access to God Ki! What can get more ridiculous than that?
Gabriel Blas And? Android 17 had 13 years of training and has no stamina limits he can literally train for as long as he wants without a break. At the minimum he would be stronger than Buu Saga ss3 Goku but clearly he's much stronger than that
Training with who? Goku has Vegeta as a training partner! Not to mention they have access to Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Senzu Beans and Whis's guidance! What does 17 have to train for? God-Level Poachers?
No stamina limits? Infinite stamina doesn't equal infinite power! Believe it or not, humans have better stamina than apes. But if both were put to fight with each other, would you place your bets on the human? Plus, how does that explain Imperfect Cell kicking 17's ass back in the day?
No disrespect but if nobody complains about the franchise's bad writing, they will keep pulling shit up their asses! I love Dragon Ball! But I'm not gonna suck the Toei and Toriyama's dick and be one of those biased followers who let inconsistencies slide! We as fans have the right to complain! I mean, do you want Dragon Ball to end up like FUCKING FAIRY TAIL!?
lol i dont think its so bad in super goku went from like 180 thousand to over 180 MILLION in literally a sinlge day
remember namek?
I'm so happy to see so many people freaking out about the power boosts. It's like you seriously believed they weren't going to recieve MASSIVE power boosts for nearly no reason. As a person who has always been more of a fan of characters like Tien, Piccolo, and Krillin, and having to deal with the dumb power boosts which made them irrelevant in Z, the Super power scaling stuff has been hilarious for me.
Goku = less then Ginyu.
Some time later...
2% final form Freeza.
Vados Zenkai boost. When saiyans are near death there power lvl rises.
I think it would be funnier/better like this:
"Goku = less then Ginyu.
Some time later...
6 times stronger than 1st form Frieza."
Vados Gohan less than ssj, 1 year training, ssj2, less than ssj2 in the Boo saga, stronger than Goku in ssj3 on 1 day... Piccolo less than form 1 Frezzer, fuses with Nail (weaker than Frezzer) and is as strong as form 2 Frezzer, then Fuses again and is stronger than 17... Gotenks gets to ssj3 on weeks, Goku need years to make that...
It's the near death/every battle Saiyan excuse.
Goku was not less than Ginyu when they fought
Frieza only got such a massive power up was because the animators were too lazy to animate SSJ3 Goku. That, and they wanted a 'new form' to advertise for the movie. Super rushed through power ups and transformations far too much, and far too often.
The thing is when goku uses his SSJ Blue form he can limit the amount of power he actually uses when he fought krillin he was restricting himself as well as when he fought 17
I'm starting to think Goku really is holding back much of his power in his blue form. I believe he is only transforming to SS Blue not to test power, but to see if Krillin or 17 will break in the presence of tremendous power or pressure. Their universe is one of the weakest in terms of overall power level and these past episodes have been stressing the importance of experience over power.
The moment Yamcha and Chiaotzu were suddenly weaker than Master Roshi is the moment I called bullshit on Super's power scaling.
They can fix some of the plot holes if they make the source of 17's power the island. As its guardian for the past ten years, he has gradually achieved a spirit link with it. So the life on the island gives him power in order to defend it. This would also help explain his reluctance to leave, because he could lose the power.
I don’t mind 17 because before getting a family. 17 can train for legitimately a year straight if he wanted to cause he doesn’t need to rest.
once they decided to use Multiply instead of addition for power increases this was always going to happen.
EVERYONE!!! Is overlooking one fact that we saw in the preview for next week's episode!!! An alien is attaking the island for minotaur and I doubt that's the first time in 10 years that an alien has attacked. So android 17 could've been fighting strong opponents from all across the universe all this time which could explain his power up.
I've said this on other posts, I really hope that Goku figured out how to deliberately transfer his god essence to others, and transferred it to Krillin during the Kamehameha...when Krillin said his hand was tingling. I really hope that is his "trump card" that's making him so confident.
Frieza is completely immoble in death and yet has gained complete control over the energy consumption of his golden form.
CONVENIENT!
Also Back Tinglies.
I really enjoyed this. I can argue with people that says how 17 couldn't been able to do such a thing in 10 Years. Remenber Androids does not have transformations,they have their base form, so if we do a single potential scale of how Vegeta's SS Form was to 17 and Piccolo Fused with Kami to 17... By those four training the only point of difference is Buu Saga and Cell Saga post Trunks and Vegrta's training... If we take in consideration that in those 10 Years we have just two big events that take saiyans to the next level of Power... I assume that if Gohan keeped his training he would be at least top 3,But right know with 17 Keeping his training and his unlimited stamina he is in top 3. And that barrier is a sick power,tanks like a master. Well then,when i have freetime I will do the potential scale.
these are not sudden boosts. these are catch-up boosts. Toriyama-Sensei is implying that we, the gods beyond the fourth wall, have been observing the saiyans so long that we completely missed everyone else's development. What I find cringy is that Base Goku was able to go toe-to-toe with an intensely trained Buu. That's like Gohan going toe-to-toe with Golden Frieza.
Perhaps Piccolo has been training with 17? And that's why Dende didn't even have to search for 17... Maybe Piccolo has been training with him since they had such a good fight during the imperfect Cell arc. Piccolo did say before Gohan came to see him to recruit him, that "I'm already prepared"... And maybe Piccolo told 17 about SSGB forms, so 17 wasn't surprised when Goku did it? Or Vegeta has been training with 17 as well?
rem from the manga how they stated that turning super sayin blue on and off will heavily fatigue you, yeah just think about how many times Goku has been spamming blue. Thats why all his fights are so hard.
Nathanael watson manga and anime is not the same
I think we are forgetting about a crucial factor here, stamina. For example, Goku could keep up with perfect cell until well, he couldn't. Android 17 potentially has unlimited stamina which is why he could keep up with Goku. As to why he can also keep up with SSJB it may be too much but I don't really have a problem with him keeping up with base or ssj goku.
Here how the 10 universe 7 warriors should be rank.
1 goku
2 vegeta
3 gohan
4 buu
5 picollo
6 17
7 18
8 krillin
9 tien
10 roshi
I made this list using common sense and power scaling
Shyama Niroshani switch krillen and tein
In the manga, Trunks' SSJ2 transformation was the mastered form which was why he was able to go head-to-head with SSJ3 Goku and put up some sort of a fight against Goku Black. Neither Goku or Vegeta ever mastered SSJ2 or 3 and they might never do so now that they have Super Saiyan God, so his performance makes some sense...at least in the manga. IIRC, it was in Chapter 15 where Goku and Trunks both powered up to regular SS2, traded some blows, Goku then transforms to SS3, and Trunks then says that he never settled for the power of the regular SS2 and further powers up to his mastered SS2 form and Vegeta mentions that Trunks is now equal with Goku. Of course, Goku then goes SS Red and beats him easily.
All the other power ups? Nah, they don't make sense, IMO. Freeza comes closest but they should've changed the "few months" to a "few years." I hope the manga will handle the others better.
Thinking about it I'm pretty sure Future Trunks's strength boost is a little Justified, because it was explained that before Zamasu appeared Buu appeared and Trunks was able to defeat Buu all by himself and get stronger from that, that's why to me it seems that his SSJ2 form is stronger than SSJ3, because the strength required to defeat Buu at his peak is a bit stronger than SSJ3.
5:18-5:22
intresting to see how he called it 6 years in the making.
If they didnt make the anime all about Goku Vegeta, we wouldnt think this way...
LMAO the Yamcha thing was GOLD!!! xD Everything stated here was pretty on point! I also had the thought of "hell why doesn't Yamcha just train for three months and like Krilin have a blast battle with Goku Blue and be able to hold his ground for a couple of seconds.
I think everyone is forgetting about DBZ power boosts. It all started with the year training for the saiyans. Krillin, Yamcha, Tien they all surpassed Goku, despite doing the same training with Kami. Then we have Gohan, he can be called an exception due to his hidden potential, but if we let Gohan off then surely the likes of Freeza, Buu, 17 can also be let off. During Namek, the stupid amount of power boosts, yes they were explained but the zenkai were very inconsistent and just boosted power levels to the plots demand. And the Buu saga, goten and trunks unlock SSJ like it's nothing, and are ridiculously powerful. Even though Goten only trained with Chi Chi! Then Gohan gets a huge ass pull of a power up with his Ultimate form. So all in all, Super is just following what Z already did.
Actually their training was harsher than Goku along with the fact that they could fight each other to get stronger so it does make some sense
As for Buu I think he was just emulating Satan and didn't really get stronger that much - he just tricked Goku. Up until the #17 episode I thought it would be a short arc about Goku going around recruiting weaker opponents with the twist being they all surprise him with smart use of tricky techniques and the rules that will be in place during the Tournament of Power. So while Goku, Vegeta and Gohan would remain the team's power houses everyone would have something to offer for different reason.
I don't believe any of the Z fighters are actually close to Goku's full power to the point when they can keep up. If anything goku was suppressing his power in sparring matches to atleast give the other fighter a chance to show what they can do since the fact SSJ blue isn't a new transformation really, just a better way to control his ki
18 was pushed back by Trunks and Goten in early Buu saga and that was one or two years before this universes match.
If only Goku would be more blunt and say hes holding back so much, for the audiences sake
#17 massive power up makes no sense for me, how the hell he became so strong just beating humans? i'm cool with Frieza because we always knew he never ever trained one hour of his life, he was just a prodigy. I think Akira has said the androids could become stronger.
If i were to predict how strong would android 17 would had become, i would give it as strong as Gohan SSj2 against Cell. And that's being generous since Trunks Timeline counterpart never become one bit stronger after continually fighting against Super Saiyans for a period of 10 Years, so all of a Sudden current 17 become as strong as SSJGod just sparring against humans and "Minotaurs" in 10 years. BULLSHIT, i don't buy it and it pisses me off.
I belive it was TOEI's doing, they are just spamming the shit out of SSJBlue. We saw Goku fight against Arale in SSJBlue, we saw him do SSJBlue in the Baseball match and basically use it every fucking time where it was not needed and Toei going as far as to rebuke the Manga regarding SSJBlue and using it continually, where Vegeta wasted his true SSJBlue power just to show it to Cabba and using it again against Hit only to get a 1/10 of his true power.
Regarding Trunks, he became as strong as Goku SSj3 in his SSj2 BECAUSE he fought against Black to death for a whole Year... so both of them become very strong, that's understandable. But the Super Saiyan Rage transformation Trunks did was honestly rather OP as he became as strong as Goku and Vegeta SSjBlue when he was all the way down from being a SSj2 with comparable power of a SSj3 in just a matter of days.
Why are people mentioning Buu? He fought with just base form Goku, I think that fight was pretty realistic.
They got too big the moment Goku stepped out his ship when he reached namek
Power scaling went to hell after Frieza arc to be fair, but yes power gaps are absurd in super.
I think the most ridiculous power boost in Super was Master Roshi able to fight off hordes of Freeza's soldiers in Resurrection F. There has been no hint that Roshi should be any stronger than he was in Dragon Ball, where he couldn't fight against Demon King Piccolo, who was far weaker than Raditz or any of Freeza's men on Namek. And now he can fight off groups of them as well as Krillin and Tien, who have received training from low level gods that Roshi has never had.
Agreed. not to mention Picollo who also always trains and started out stronger than 17 after the cell arc isn't even ssj goku level? Wow. At least make up some special training he did otherwise it makes every other special training that characters did in the past less relevant.
17 was a human being of average strength (meaning single digits on a scouter) who got changed into an artificial human/cyborg, his power came from his mechanical parts, not from his Ki, he had no Ki so to speak of and couldn't be sensed by the Z warriors.
The only way someone like him could get more powerful is if someone opened him up and upgraded his mechanical parts.
Since we are talking about Frieza and RoF arc, wouldn't be cool if Beerus revived him with Dragon Balls because of Tournament with Champa or Universal Tournament, because he wants to win for sure. But plan wouldn't go too well (and RoF saga would be here), or maybe it would =)
I thought it was cool idea, maybe it will sound stupid tomorow XD
I think I've figured it out android 17 has been training with the Greek gods because he's guarding the minataour and goku has been training with basically Anubis an Egyptian god
Ok I don't care I'm just gonna say that yes Goku was holding back but he was going at 10% and 17 was going at 90% of his full strength. That fits the diaologue just fine. I mean Beerus was "Holding back" against Goku and Goku mid way through the battle with Beerus was also "Holding back" yes we know Beerus had FAR, FAR More in reserve than Goku did. Though it does seem like Android 17 is stronger than Goku in Super Saiyan form at this point which is still dumb
Even at ten percent in his base form, he should completely annihilate 17. Remember when Frieza showed up (in his first form no less) in the RoF movie (fuck the arc, I refuse to consider it canon), and how he was stated to be stronger than Gohan IN HIS PRIME?! And how Goku, in his base form, fought and OVERPOWERED Frieza IN HIS FINAL FORM?!?! Also, just as an fyi, Frieza's Final Form is roughly a 226x multiplier over his First Form (1st: 530,000; Final: 120,000,000). Also, the reason why Frieza wasn't super muscular in his Final Form was because he mastered his Final Form to not drain himself of energy.
Frieza's pre-ROF forms aren't meant to be multipliers. They are meant to sort of suppress himself.
I understand that. I'm just saying it doesn't demand that 17 is equal to SSJ Blue at full power. So I'm going to do that to maintain my psyche. 17 still should be weaker I get that. But still I'm going to maintain 17 to be as weak as possible until it's proven or stated otherwise, again for the sake of my sanity :)
Anime Otaku Then suppression levels. You know what I mean
Eric Brown SSB Goku should be about a million times stronger than 17. Or at least many, many thousands of times stronger than a 17 spending most his time fighting humans. He should have been able to handle 17 in a highly suppressed regular form. Idk though. I was to accept people's reasonings and move on at the same time
I was talking to someone about Goku and Vegeta power in their base form. It seems that some people believe that Goku and Vegeta can alternate between normal human ki and God ki in their base forms. He said it wouldn't make sense for base Goku and base Vegeta to be near God level all the time in their base forms because it would mean that now a lot of characters would be 70% of Beerus including Cabba (who matched base Vegeta in tournament) and Frost since Vegeta had to go Super Saiyan to beat him and Frost is not near God level since Piccolo would have beat him if it had not been for the poison needle.
At the end of the day the answer is yes but let's be honest the random boost in power are in cause of lazy writing and it's been like this since namek,it's simply become more common place so it's more noticeable than back in the day.
Maybe they were hinting back to Dragon Ball GT, when Gero said 17 was intended to have even greater power than Cell, but in the end was a failed experiment. Eh?
No power boost is as ridiculous as goku's on namek
Daniel Araya agreed he got 18,750 x stronger in 6 days
it showed him training 100 times gravity on the way there it didnt show 17 doing any kind of training
Vampirerockstar and we know he has more potential then goku and trained every day for 13 years.
Vampirerockstar Goku trained for a week, 17 did it for years, and probably for extended periods of time since androids have infinite stamina
the godly flame soulaymana Doing what? Beating up hunters?
If we're being honest, power scaling in dbz was colossal shit as well.
This isn't a bad question to ask, but I'm still having fun with the show. It would be nice for it to make more sense, but It's fine with me IMO.
I mean... To be honest... Fans are just keep saying... I MISSED THE DAY WHEN PICCOLO WAS RELEVANT!!! I MISSED THE DAY WHEN GOHAN WAS RELEVANT!!! I MISSED THE DAY WHEN, BLAH BLAH BLAH WE GET IT!!!
As far as I remember everyone wanted the strongest universe 7 team. Everyone wanted krillen to be trained by whis. Everyone wanted android 17 back as a rival. everyone wants this super namekian God bs. So now that there are boosts that make sense ppl complain
Yes I totally agree with this video. I've been commenting things discussed in this video several times but always pushed aside because I am not a popular youtuber etc but I'm glad you guys brought this up to give some thoughts and light to others. I laughed at the super saiyan god fish and yogi bear part. Like seriously right? I'm basing this theory for 18 based on the english dub not kai version of z that android 18 wasn't really the type to just sit around and do nothing. She always was pushing krillin to spar with her and one could assume she could have been training on the side too. But yet to me it looks like in the world tournament, she was having trouble fighting super saiyan goten and trunks as opposed to how hard she dominated super saiyan vegeta way earlier. I totally agree that if 17 is capable of juggling a fighting bandits and poachers, a wife, kids, and still have time to train and get to god level under normal earth conditions then why was 18 not able to? Because she had a family? Because she had a job? Fuck that, she has the same potential 17 has unless super wants to recon some bullshit that 17 got a special thing 18 didnt. The simple idea I think is the better idea, it's the fact that they wanted to make 17 relevant as well as krillin, buu, roshi. They just randomly buff with a lazy justification of we don't really know this character. I do want to say buu probably has the highest chance for a power boost, but it's not likely plausible due to his training being smashing rocks with hercule. If fat buu had that potiential all this time, then why didn''t he just go in the time chamber for 24 minutes or less and kick kid buu's butt without any sweat? Buu training for less than a day and surpassing kid buu and even super buu who absorbed gotenks, piccolo, and ultimate gohan is just ridiculous. That would be like super buu's absorbing was literally pointless if he could just train 1 day and become god level and beyond. Not even vegito during the buu saga would be able to touch fat buu or super buu if they trained smashing rocks for a day. That's just ridiculous. I totally agree with this video you two collaborated on, very very good to discuss and bring light to people who watch this show. I think the show just does whatever they feel like no matter how ridiculous it may sound to catch more viewers. I think the show can still be great even without them doing ridiculous things. If they wanted to, they can bring back cell at the end of super and make him a final boss and say oh well cell has never trained a day in his life and we dont know his biology and enhancements. But seriously, cmon you dont need to do something ridiculous like that just to make the show great.
So Android 17 could fight on par with SSJ3 Goku and just released Buu or Mystic Gohan? Completely OP!
No they are not, what people don't get is that Goku is simply holding back his power.
(regarding the latest episodes) Yes, 17 was holding back too, but Goku was holding back miles more..
I like the Androids and love that they're bringing them back but 17 being on par with SSJB might be a bit too much. Wish they brought them back for the Zamasu arc and have them say, have Black come to the present to fight Goku and Vegeta while Zamasu was wiping out the remnants of humanity in the future so Trunks grabs who's on hand which happen to be only the Androids and travel in time to stop Zamasu.
It's ridiculous to suggest that Frieza's boost in Super makes more sense than 17's. Frieza had 4 months to train. 17 had 10 years. 17 had 30 times more time to train than Frieza. Even with Tagoma (who honestly should turn to pulp against Frieza, making his value as a training partner laughable), it's silly to think Frieza's boost makes more sense.
Though to be fair, at this point if any of us were honest we'd acknowledge that the Super writing staff just doesn't do research or care about the show they work on.
I can understand 17, or Lapis' strength. He's a Cyborg. As far as I understand, they, the cyborgs 17 and 18, don't have mortal limitations. They don't need to sleep or eat (though I assume water/drinking is still needed). They can't age, they have infinite ki, infinite stamina...
As a result, 17 and 18 can train to greater lengths then Goku and Vegeta or any other mortal. They don't have to worry about resting like Goku or Vegeta, they could train non stop if they wanted and they'd only keep getting stronger. 17, even with casual training, over 10+ years...his power would increase insanely.
I agree the boosts are to high. I would have liked that they made the androids a threat because you cannot sense their ki so they can sneak up on you and knock you out of the ring
Anyone who thinks it's plausible for 17, whom was weaker than Goku and Vegeta during the Cell saga, after Vegeta and Goku had been continuously training, under multiplied Gravity and under enhanced circumstances and now 5 - 6 years of training under godly power (ROSAT Time Included), and with the best mentor of the entire universe (Whis), is now able to "Rival the gods" with his power by doing whatever basic training he could've done on an island is straight up delusional.
Goku and Vegeta literally get stronger/weaker as the situation wills it. They got no noticable powerup in 3 years of training but can double their power over night on other occasions lmao. Super is a trash series in all honesty.
I still remember the very first time I saw goku turned ssj. I was super excited. couldn't stop watching it the whole series. I even bought the dvd collection.
now I've seen ssj god (red) and then blue..and im like wtf is this. I mean the graphics are awsome but now I think they're trying way to hard to make it work.
i understand a huge boost after obtaining God ki but how the heck did Frieza, Future Trunks, and Android 17 get a huge boost, and they don't explained it. 😤
So let me get this straight, according to part of the fanbase, this: "Frieza starting off weaker than untrained SSJ and getting a hugely massive boost in few months?" Is fine. This: "17 starting off stronger than SSJ and getting a huge boost in 10 years or so?" makes no sense.
I'm not saying anything by this, I'm just saying.
Yes. They are inconsistent, but they are also required for the story.
Now let's see the boost Gohan gets in a matter of 24 hours.
I feel like Buu's boost is fair and there's not many holes with the concept. With 17 it should've been something like they asked Bulma to enhance him or something or he figured out a way to enhance himself. With Trunks I guess there's not much of an explanation. I always saw Freeza as a prodigy type thing also maybe even a chosen one type of his species like a queen bee type of thing and it never really bugged me.
They're very ridiculous gains, for sure. The big problem with the series is the huge disparity between potential and training. Goku started from the bottom, trained his ass off, and at countless points in the story he ends up being trumped by a villain who hasn't trained in his life, yet Goku has trained hard nearly all his life. Whether it's Frieza, Android 17/18, Cell, Buu, etc, these opponents' potential is so insurmountable, so ridiculous, that you can only imagine how far they'd get with Whis' training. Goku trains for years, we see it, and after all this time he's attained a "god" level form, yet everybody from Krillin to Trunks to 17 are able to contend with it, yet it was VERY different when Goku went against Beerus and was basically an ant compared to him. When Goku went Suoer Saiyan God he could then contend with Beerus, and although it was more like an apprentice vs master type fight in that Beerus was the obvious superior, both were holding back and Goku could compete. Does that mean all these fighters challenging the superior Blue form have access to god ki? What the hell was the point of all this god ki mumbo jumbo if everyone else wasn't treated the same as Goku was when he fought Beerus? It's best to take DB/Z/S as pure entertainment rather than take it as a consistent, well-written narrative.
If 17 can get this strong being a park ranger, 18 can get uber strong too. I mean 17 said he was holding back against SSJB as well. So......Cell could've beaten Beerus and if he had trained.........wtf. Gero, what did you do exactly?
When you said "uber", I thought you meant that #18 could get that strong being an uber driver.... I'll leave
17 is genetically modified and is now a young adult. Of course he got stronger. Gero would design him that way.
Personally, I like the power boosts. One of the few things that annoyed me in Dragonball Z was how all these cool characters were not being used because they were hopelessly overshadowed by the sayians. The last epic thing that a non sayian did in Dragonball Z was when Tien Kikoho'ed the hell out of Semi Perfect Cell.
Now if Yamcha can get the crazy power boost like he gets the dragon balls and wishes to be a Sayain and wishes for all his Zenkai boost given how many Ls he's taken added on his crazy level now ITLL BE LIT LETS DO IT. MAKE EVERYONE OP IT'LL BE FUN AS FUCK
DBS left us with a lot of question marks about characters and plot that unfortunatelly we're never gonna take answers.