Starter Motor Powered Bike
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 เม.ย. 2023
- Can an automotive starter motor be used as an electric bike motor? Let's find out!
Please consider supporting my projects on Patreon: / austinblake
A while back, I made an electric drift trike using a giant starter motor from a caterpillar machine. To my surprise, it worked quite well and since that project I have wondered if a smaller automotive starter motor could work for EV applications.
In this video I build an electric bike using a 1.4kW starter motor and put it to the test.
Use code "austiwawa" at Battery Hookup for 5% off your entire order!: batteryhookup.com/
Follow Me:
Instagram: / austiwawa - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
This is a valuable lesson on the difference between continuous duty and intermittent duty motors.
Lmao 🤣🤣🤣 burnnnn
The current draw on automotive starter motors is huge and the heat generated where the brushes run on the commutator because of this can even melt the solder holding it together after a short period of time. Converting an alternator into a motor is much better for bike use.
@@alistairshanks5099 That is why they spotweld it.
Rubbish. That starter motor has a no load speed of over 20000 rpm.
He is geared for 1000meters per second.
Over three times the speed of sound.
This means that there is almost no back emf generated reducing the voltage and current through the coils, and no air turbulence transferring heat from the armature and brushes to the housing.
He is turning many kW into heat and a small fraction of a kilowatt into mechanical drive force.
He needs a 250:1 reduction drive, not 5:1
That would give 50 times the torque per amp supplied to the motor, and over 50mph top speed
@@Maungateitei This thematic is very interesting . Beside , as first ,what i captured ; no cooling vent , will be nice to change housing with Alu ( with ribs ) and , that will provide good cooling .. Ratio is still under a question ? By you , it should be 250 :1, , that means that we should reduce starter rotations 250 times ?
Suggestion for you next project: modify a LG washer machine's motor to run an e-bike. I saw that these motors are 3ph. I wonder if the large radius could delivery more torque.
There was a guy that did it, but i forgot his channel
@@foxxyytofficial ik the yt channal kreosan that did that
@RafeTVGaming "Kreosan" used an universal motor. The LG motor we are talking about is a brushless permanent magnet motor. "Why Not Cycles" for one made a video about the conversion.
I would think a starter motor for a car would have a lot more torque than a washing machine motor even but definitely a lot more than an e-bike motor which are considered high torque low RPM but nothing compared to a car starter that has to turn over an engine with a significant amount of compression to overcome and I think the tricks probably in the gearing but well outside of what has been tried already but I could be wrong you don't have much experience with electric bikes because I haven't got my first run running yet because it still needs a battery that's outside of my budget right now but I did see one here on TH-cam where somebody used a much smaller starter successfully and another one that was working halfway decent using a quite small wiper motor but I can't remember Mimosa Channel I saw it on
@@Teknopottu you don't happen to have a link to that video by chance do you
In the early 2000's I owned a company called ScooterFaster. One of the projects we built used an aircraft starter. On the plane the motor would spin a flywheel to an obsurd speed and the flywheel would be clutched to turn the motor using its inertia.
We thought this might work well because it was small (1/3 the size of the Delco) and given enough time it would reach crazy RPM and was built to do that without the armature exploding.
Long story short, it was great for drag racing, but you can only put out 400Amps for so long.
I still have lots of brushed PM 800 W motors which we used 2 of on our most popular stunt scooter.
KILLER WHEELIES until the brush holders caught fire.
Your controller is an awesome beast, but better suited for a go kart than a bike.
If you were in AZ I could hook you up with some motors to amaze your friends with (until you play too hard and they catch on fire.)
Thanks for reading.
Excellent video. Short comment: Yep. Starter motors are designed for massive current for maximum torque at very short intervals. At 100k vehicle miles it's made to crank a gas motor under freezing temp conditions, etc. Excellent work on the bike. No halfassery. Gorgeous lathe work, etc.
i think it would be a good idea to try eaven higher gearing that you have tried , as the starter motor can hit preety high RPM itself , that would further lower the current draw
I love re-purposing every day items to do other things. And, nice testing and engineering modification, Austin! Thanks for doing needed testing and documentation so others don't have to go down the same path and waste their time! Bless you, Sir!
Try to remove your starter motor windings and wire new one from thinner wire with more turns on each pole. It should increase voltage rating of the motor and lower the current boosting the efficiency slightly ;)
Whoa those battery cells are pretty cool! You should cook some bacon on the motor next time.
Its a well done project. Starter motors do tend to overheat if used to long. But the possibility of small water colling system would be epic if you ever re visit the idea.
Can't say I'm surprised by the results, though what did surprise me is how many amps these motors draw
Oh, I could have answered this decades ago. A neighbor had a homemade bike powered by a starter motor back in 1982. It wasn't hugely fast but it certainly flattened every hill.
Thank you for testing a starter motor on a bicycle. I have often wondered if it could be used in this way.
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the Edutainment and I thoroughly enjoyed it! ❤
My first thought was the starter motors I started on fire on an old car when I was a kid. I would modify the end plate to a cage with a fan and see how that does.
Great clear explanation and video!
I am just now watching one of your older videos and realising that you are nearby. I live in Vineland. Great channel!
If you used a separate power supply or PWM controller for the field coils, you could strengthen the field at low speeds to increase torque and weaken it at high speeds to increase top speed. I'm sure if you increased field current like in the 9 minute mark you would not be able to hold the bike in place. Too little field current compared to armature current causing low torque, basically just shorting out the armature.
Perhaps attach a fan inside of the motor housing on the shaft? I have a large pool motor and it has a fan to keep it cool since it runs 24/7.
awesome project!
Id add a fan to the back of the shaft with more holes to draw air through.
I was coming to say the same thing. I was wondering why he didn't put a fan on the shaft to draw air through the motor. It might not save it but it'll prolong it for sure
you could add a fan to the motor shaft to get it cooler
Great job. I love how neat your work is. 👍
Thank you!
I was just about to write "do an alternator powered bike!", but I see you've beat me to it!
This was a good video. I love those red cells
Always fun to watch.
Great to see you building new projects
I saw one used for a boat winch. It was only on about 10 or 20 seconds max but it worked well.
I was thinking it wouldn't last long they aint made for extended use. But the then u modified it. Good job
The moment you said "14AH battery only lasted 10 minutes" I LOL'd hard. Your eventual conclusion about the ABSURD inefficiency of that motor was right there in that test. A 14ah battery should be provide a LOT more than 10 minutes or riding!
Hope those cells are rated at 6C lol
Nope most car batteries are 30 to 50Ah yet go crank over your car for 10 minutes and see how well id does
30Ah for a lead acid battery isn't the same as a lithium battery. for lead batteries the actual usable charge decreases significantly when you apply a big load to it, so yeah a car battery wont last long if you crank the starter motor nonstop
@@EMILE12345678901 missed the point completely it isn't a matter of battery size or efficiency just damn size of the motor
For anyone else that read this 500w is at the bottom end of starter motor sizes but with some simple math at 12v it pulls 41.67a and a 14ah divided by 41.67a is just 20 minutes, but this is it's free spinning power draw pushing a bike are that could easily be doubled and cranking a car more like 4 to 5 times that is why car batteries have that CCA rating that is generally a few hundred amps.
Real trooper on the starter motor. Detroit knows what its doing.
I really enjoyed your video! I've been a mechanic for 32 years. Your week link is the motor itself. VERY Inefficient brushed motor intended to work for 10 seconds at most. But really well built! Try using hobby motors. I put a Trungy 6374 on my skateboard. It'll pull up to 5000 wats! At 1700 wats (that's what I'm currently running) it'll do 25 mph with enough torque to tow a car. Top speed is voltage limited so I don't die. It is a skateboard after all... And the motor was $80.
I've been saving the motor from an old treadmill for something like this. It's DC, and 120V.... It's intended for more run time than a starter motor.
I like how you used a small block Chevy starter motor, probably the most common American starter in history. One of the only differences from the Buick Pontiac Oldsmobile, is the entry hole to the gear is on the other side of the starter, but many of the GM starters were the same, non gear reduction units
Thanks for the upload!
Damn, I was hoping this would work well and be a potentially cheaper option, since starter motors are mass produced.
Me too! Kid wants to make a drift trike and I thought this would be perfect.
Doesn't matter, new ones are still insanely expensive. Used ones are almost free, but you don't know what you're getting.
add a fan (repurpose old pc fan blades) before tail stock bearing (cut large exhaust ports) to pull air across the windings
I would also add a ring of radial fins to the external surface of the motor to take advantage of the external air flow to cool the motor.
Try using a bigger rear sprocket so that the motor spins faster which in turn will allow the motor to generate a higher Counter EMF to reduce overall amp draw and heat.
great work chap
I have been watching your videos for a while and I have wondered if you use the bicycle's sprockets front and rear on a starter motor (doesn't always need to be a starter motor) like that and go through all the gears just like a normal bicycle what would be the top speed
or
If you use a bigger gear than the driven gear what would be the performance/top speed
Please keep posting the good work and entertainment you are an absolute legend !!!!!
Use a copper housing and add fins you can also try liquid cooling if you add fins or possibly an AIO style cooler with a radiator and fans
So cool finally someone did that project, i was always thinking about doing this but didn't know about the worthiness and outcome. - so basically you overvolted the motor by 24volt?
Great video, thx!
Very cool video. It seems you're working well outside the normal use case for a starter motor, so it's good you gave up. Someone else suggested a low kV rc motor. Not sure if you have to use lipo cells for that, but be careful when using those!
The ones with permanent magnet are more compact and have loads of power too, but you still run the same issue of heat, I’ve played with one in the past and not worth to continue with it as the windings aren’t made for constant use and the amp draw is insane high no nope, I had fun for a bit anyway …
Great Job Austin. Your alternator mod (old rusty) inpired me to do the same in my country and I love my new e-bike, BUT, as seen at your starter motors mod, I always wonder how many Km could I travel with the same battery with a regular BLDC e-bike motor.
Dont waste your time with starters. Modern ebike motor will make 100km range with pretty small battery and it wont even get warm. Starter motors arent made for this, i was trying to do the same but after buying normal motor i can have fun like 5h on ebike, and now i can see how crazy efficient those things are.
If you add cooling fins around the motor, it’ll help dissipate the heat faster. Or even try copper water cooling coils.
Starters are designed to be intermittent motors due to their 4 field coil and 4 brush design which gives very high torque for starting an engine. However, when such a motor is used continuously, it will heat up very quickly and smoke is usually not far away.
Amazing man
Hey. Nice to see you again. Pretty cool idea.
Try using a Super Capacitor bank to start the motor then switch to battery power for continuous use. The Super cap can also provide a boost for up hill load.
Great video! I've always wanted to try these powerful 3 phase brushless motors used on some modern vehicles radiator cooling fans, for a bike. I forgot which vehicles used them, but they are low profile, brushless, and very powerful.
Also from power steering, pretty strong motors...
etek motor
1:47 DAMN BOIIII THEM WINDINGS THICCCCC
nice expriment ;)
i love it man ❤❤
Fantastic work, Austin! Really well done! 😃
Looking forward to see what you make next!
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Adding some aluminum heatsink will help out a lot.. some even come with little fans 😎
I would have taken a permanent magnet starter motor. Added some cooling to it...with a CNC machine you could easily cut out for example 2cm thick half circle aluminium profiles. In fact it could be done with with laser or water cutting too :)
Hmm daly does vary bms to bms.. some bms are set to spark or reset when connected but others have to be "sparked" or connected to a charger to reset
very nice sir , i think the motor was overheating due being used at higher voltages , you can use an electric 12 volt fan to solve the heating problem
Have you considered using smarter controller? Like for example vesc with a lot more safety features including motor temp sensors?
You made a great video!
I have afeeling that you proved something that you already knew!
Anyway this is the point of experimenting!
So, you basically remade the whole thing. Is it still a starter motor by the end of the video or just a rotor with everything else re-made?
It makes me appreciate my 10 amp hr lectric 3.0. Its cadence set points with throttle works quite well. At least as far as i can tell. I love your idea and skills. Its beyound my capabilities but i found it quite intresting. I like peddling and it helps with the over all millage per watt i guess you might say. I have a 48 watt system that is 54 watts fully charged. It takes about 1.7 hours to get to halfway through the battery which most likely over half. I thought you might care about those detail but mabe not. Its ok either way. Great video
You know you can use am alternator as a motor also right? Those already have bearings too...and well ventilated
You could mount a computer fan, it may help on dissipating the heat a little bit for cheap, PC fans use low energy and are almost silent.
Where did you learn to use fusion 360? I'm interested in learning but haven't got a clue where to start
when a child crys through being happy, it can distroy any man... well done girl ❤
Wow I had a dream to build a go kart with a starter motor when I was young. Thank you for making this vid. Even though it didn’t work as well as I hoped it was still a very interesting experiment indeed 👍I wonder how brushless rc car motors would work ? Mabe multiple motors or run through a gearbox of some kind ?
Really enjoy watching your videos, it's just a shame there's not more.
Thanks! New video next week so keep an eye out :)
This was a great experiment.
What electric motor would be best for high torque startup and low rpm? I am trying to power a trommel made from a propane tank. Gear reducer?
I would fix a fan disc with many twisted fan blades on the shaft to draw in air from one end of the motor and blow the air out through the opposite end, thereby creating forced air cooling.
BatteryHookup sells the BMS too! And they aren't that expensive!
you should definetly add a fan to the motor shaft to force air over the coils. Looking at those field coils , those things look bonkers (large flat slabs of copper). Maybe you could replace those with Neodynium Magnets to increase efficency.
I used one in a diy pahse convertor to spin up a 25hp 3phase motor to eliminate the need for the start capacitor bank. It worked well for a while but the speeds required needed a bit higher voltage. It smoked eventually. I use a different type of system now.
Maybe just a small fan attached to the shaft to blow air through the housing, it seems *almost* there cooling wise.
Tbh, duty cycle is gonna be short enough that just adding thermal mass might be the way to go, a water jacket or something
How did you bolt the end plates to the motor housing?
Wiley Coyote dynamites up his bike. Is that an electric hotplate on the rat trap? Interesting build. your machining skills are top drawer.
I thought that was you biking by my house the other day 😂
Subbed after seeing less than a minute of video!
There's a certai UnderDunn who needs help with your expertise. Awesome idea!
You need to use an electric motor designed for constant duty, and use a brushless motor will offer better efficiency over a brushed motor like the started, (Which is NOT designed for constant duty).
3:42
What was that no-solder system you used?
you should use brushless motor for less friction or a motor really designed for ebike &escooter
I would add antifreeze cooling, antifreeze bc it has additives so the motor wont rust from inside. Maybe an automatic transmission rad(not sure if its enough) and a heat capable pump. idk how u would find a 36v one tho. id go with 12v pump and buck converter. Im actually planning a similar project. i got an old cadillac starter that has bad bushings and solenoid. Im a DIY guy, so i have many other EV projects, there's a timelapse vid abt my armchair :D
Great video tho!
5:18 well that's to be expected. Starter motors are extremely powerful but aren't meant for continuous running. That's why it gets so hot. I suggest you get an alternator or a dynamo and turn it into a motor. They are more preferable option, also because other people have done it before.
Sir,
Please suggest another motor for longer run without overheated problem. Thank you.
Hi Austin! Does the BMS heats a lot? I am going to use similar for my project and wondering if I can put it in the closed box with the battery
If you have bad cells and your BMS is trying to compensate for that, it might get hot but you should be safe to put it in a closed box otherwise.
If you are able to get a ravin Gwizz you could upgrade its motor to the same starter motor shown in this video and it would be much more efficient and powerful than the motor originally used in the car
Is it for sale. I would love to have it as a demo model around here
Amazing work!
Thanks Jay!
Great video. That starter motor is toast. You should try a 3 phase brushless motor next.
He already did that with an alternator, and he got decent results.
th-cam.com/video/vp44tW1VDGg/w-d-xo.htmlsi=KwfsLvbm2JWHPZ2j
What an amazing video! I'm from Brazil
I wonder if a small water cooling system could be added?
Like the addition of a thermistor circuit and relay controlling a little pond pump.
If the motor gets up to 80*c the pump turns on, if it gets to 90*c a small fan could be activated over the radiator for additional cooling.
Once the motor gets back down to maybe 70*c the pump turns off.
Conversion well done. It gets too hot bc the rotor coil windings are just thick wire typical for a starter. Just... swaping the windings or rotor and we are good to go. ;-)
i think the only solution capable of cooling that thing would be to treat it with some stator-ade. but you can't anymore since you drilled holes and it would simply leak out.
See if you can drill a tapped pocket hole on the outside end of the motor shaft and fasten a substancial metal fan tight to it so it has good thermal connection and can vent the shaft heat.
I thought great I can build my own with a starter motor.... My dreams were shattered when I saw you need homemade end plates with a
Lathe 😂😂😂😂
golf carts can have some pretty beefy starter generator motors that can take a beating
As you have gone this far with this motor, it may be an idea to use this as a starting/boost motor for hills only and try to fit a second motor for cruise. That way you you can have motors that are efficient for the current riding condition.
Don't regular e-bike BLDCs have enough torque to starts efficiently?
U right there, but now extra weight, so switch to aluminum bike frame to compensate.😊./ S.B.
Thank you for the cool video.
Always gotta bring up the AGNI/Lynch/Briggs and Stratton eTek motors. They are my absolute favorite and amazing for projects requiring 1-50hp, here is some more information:
The Lynch motor is an unconventional design with a disc armature. It marries the advantages of a conventional, wound armature motor with the benefits of a flat (printed circuit) motor. It is similar to a pancake motor, but is more powerful than any of these technologies. The disc armature has magnets on both sides, doubling the available flux density and shortening the magnetic path. It therefore packs more power per pound and per cubic inch than any other motor technology. Of course such a revolutionary motor is not for every application - it is not as cheap as wound field motors, but for many applications it is a far superior motor. It has a previously unheard of power to weight ratio and also power to volume ratio. It is also highly efficient because of the double magnet design and associated short magnetic path. It also includes integral fan cooling.
The Lynch motor is an important development which spurred other motor designers to improve their products to remain competitive, such as synchronus permanent magnet machines. As a result of the competition between manufacturers the cost of high performance motors and controllers has fallen dramatically. We hope the cost of solar cells also reduces to allow renewable transportation to develop as a viable alternative to carbon fuels.
Cedric Lynch built his electric bike around a mid-drive configuration, also building one of the worlds most efficient light weight electric motors to power his rig reliably at 60-MPH for significant distances. He would later set several world records with his axial flux motor and bring it to market as the Lynch / Agni motor. Briggs and Stratton would eventually buy this technology which would lead to the Etek motor, which is now famous for making high speed efficient electric hot rods.
Cedric uses to achieve high speeds is by following the rules of aerodynamics, and building a bike that is as aerodynamic and as efficient as possible. The other builders on this list bypassed this step, and Cedric uses this bicycle as daily transportation on real commutes. Although this high-efficiency motor uses “old school” brushes, this fact allows builders to use very affordable controllers. He has proven his design choices through thousands of miles of commuting, and the Lynch motor is highly respected.
Cedric Lynch is known as the creator of the Agni Motor, a highly efficient electric motor that weighs around 25 pounds and can put out as much as 50hp.
Cedric Lynch is a British 'mad scientist' type mechanical engineer obsessed with the idea of greener transportation. His interest has been in building a super efficient yet powerful vehicle that can serve as a car replacement.
He started thinking of his own design for an electric motor in 1983 when he began entering competitions organized by the Battery Vehicle Society regarding building an efficient electric vehicle. At the time there was no reasonably priced DC motor with descent efficiency so Lynch decided to build his own utilizing modifying existing motors with old tin cans that he would spread out flat to use as cooling fins. Surprisingly using rudimentary materials and a garage work bench, Cedric was making better more efficient electric motors than any of the universities were able to manufacture in state of the art workshops.
Cedric then came up with a motor design that could be cheaply manufactured and began manufacturing his own motor that he could sell to the public in 1988 and the Lynch Electric Motor Company was born, known as LEMCO.
Cedric first used his motor to create a small boat called “The Spark” that would set an electric boat efficiency record. From there Cedric turned his attention to bicycles, an application generally considered too small for a lynch motor at that time. Cedric mounted his motor in recumbent bike, allowing him space to eventually use a set of thundersky lithium batteries.
The resulting aerodynamic recumbent bike had a top speed of 60mph and still managed an incredible range of 150 miles. Cedric rode his recumbent creation everywhere as a daily commuter, putting an amazing 50,000 miles on the machine - technically a motorbike.
Briggs and Stratton, the US firm famous for lawn mower engines, bought the technology and used it in their E-Tech Motor, and Cedric went on to manufacture his latest incarnation of his lynch design into the Agni motor, which is used in go karts, sailboats, motor boats, and even small airplanes.
The Lynch designed motors all have the same traits. Brushed motors, around 25 pounds in weight and they are able to put out enormous power compared to their weight. Sometimes as high as 50 hp (depending on amperage ran through the motor) at an incredible 98% efficiency. Lynch Motors are also the most often used motors in electric motorcycle racing applications.
Cedric's zero-emission motorcycle, which has a top speed of 120mph, was shown in action winning the world’s first zero carbon race - the TTxGP in the Isle of Mann.
The idea for the electric motor has been snapped up by the 56-year-old’’s friend Arvind Rabadia, who together with his brother Hasmuk Rabadia had been thinking of starting a business in India. They have now set up Agni Motors to make further-improved versions of Cedric’s motors
Despite Cedric’s breakthrough invention he has no formal engineering qualifications and taught himself the techniques needed to construct his engine. He first became interested in electrics when his parents bought him a book entitled How to build things from things found at home.
The Etek motor is a brushed 25-pound pancake shaped motor that puts out enormous power for its weight. Depending on amperage and voltage the Etek can easily provide between 15-horsepower and 30-horsepower reliably and consistently (11-kW / 22-kW). A perfect platform for a powerful electric bike if you do not mind the weight. Although brushless motors are considered more modern, a brushed motor like the Etek allows the builder to use very affordable controllers.
Cedric-Lynch invented the motor and sold it to Briggs and Stratton which US company produced the Etek at a lower price (around $600). In the late 90’s early 2000’s it was the way to go for a high-power / light-weight electric vehicle. Many small E-vehicle records were set using the Etek motor. Finally, the market had a relatively lightweight and powerful electric motor available to the masses.
In essence, the Etek allowed hot rodders to build electric bikes. Before the Etek very few people had ever achieved 50mph on an electric bike. Even today, Etek motors (and newer incarnations of the Etek motor) are used to make some super fast electric bikes. In the case of Liveforphysics, the fastest E-bikes ever.
Liveforphysics used a newer version of the Etek (the Agni motor), to achieve speeds of over 70mph, and dominate a recent hill-climb event.
Every Etek I have ever ridden has been characterized by brutal off-the-line acceleration, usually to a point where you have to apply the throttle very carefully or get thrown off. However, it is possible to run an Etek at a lower voltage or lower amperage and have a very manageable, safe, and sane electric bike that will not burn out on you, no matter high steep the incline.
Makes you wonder, what documented success we havent seen. I mean, we first cloned a species back in the late 1800s. Then we spent the next 100 years acting as if it were a science fiction subject.
I thought this was a really good try and I was rooting for you, but unfortunately the setup needs more work. Remember starter motors are only intended for short duration use to get a car engine cranking over as you described. In order to do so, starter motors need a lot of power hence a very large amp draw. The Headway cells are a good way of delivering instant amp draw since it can deliver 200A from a single cell, but you will need many more cells for continued use or else you'll keep on depleting the cells since you're drawing up so much current from cells that only have so much capacity. Maybe consider a hybrid system with LiPO and Li-Ion batteries where the Headway cells can help with the instant amp draw, and 18650 cells can handle most of the constant power being delivered. In this case you'd need a number of cells that are at least 3000mAh or above.
As for the motor if you're still going to use a starter motor, I still think it doesn't have enough ventilation. The housing is acting like an oven when you have the motor spinning. I'd make as many holes possible with a set of holes facing the against the wind direction perpendicularly so you have forced air going directly into the motor and actively cooling it off rather than passive cooling of letting out heat.