Bead lock great change but what you'll notice is 20 to 40 ft out she will be more sensitive to loosing traction and going up in smoke and it will be more sensitive to track prep and temperature.....with the good comes the bad.....
"Stretching" the tire like that is also seen in small tire classes. The 275 guys been doing it for years with great success. Never thought of the pro mod/top fuel ratings for wheels before. Thats nutty
@@Spudstrodamus An "Old Saying" is *Not* a physics equation. I assumed Steve's audience was well enough educated to understand the difference. I'll put this down as a *Teachable Moment*. Rotating mass will effect acceleration more than static mass--and it's clearly not a 16:1 ratio! I thought "Old Saying" would have made clear that it was simply a *realization* that was made long before modern methods of quantifying the actual physics were available to anyone. So 15 people understood the meaning, and for the outliers, you now have a better understanding of the subtleties of the English language! Good Day to all! And now I'm going to play Wordle.
Yes, for one, I watch Cleetus for entertainment, I watch Steve Morris for knowledge. And entertainment. Yea, there are others but these might be my main two. And KSR.
If you like the deep cut kinda stuff also check out Jafromobile. Totally different, he's not building 4k hp cars but his presentation and methodology is astounding and the depth of information is amazing. Great calming voice, too.
That's like people don't understand why a 28 is a small tire and 29 is a big. They don't understand that a taller tire with low pressure makes it have a longer tread patch
@@jeremymackevincaylor5041no that is not the case . A 29 is bigger than a 28 but it’s personal opinion on what constitutes a big tire . I would say over anything 30 inches tall and 12 inches wide is big tire .
@jeremymackevincaylor5041 no offense, but your opinion doesn't matter. Rule sets matter. Promoters and organizations make rules. Almost everywhere than races "small tire" classes has the same rules 28x10.5 non W (275/60 15 if fhey allow radials). Some places in the bread basket go 29x10.5 non W. Show up with anything bigger they are gonna put you in a "big tire" class. Period
The tire you were using was more than sufficient for what you "were" doing before...that said now your really getting after it and pouring the coals to it... Once you figure out what this tire likes I think you are going to love it...
3:34 before you hit the wall. The concrete barriers aren't used as a calibration gauge for when to upgrade your equipment to your car's performance level
Tire shake like you are experiencing can just as easily be that you are not putting enough power into it. Once you have reached the power range that actually makes the sidewalls on those huge tires do their job, you are in the pocket of traction you want, all be it at the bottom of the pocket. You need that tire to slip all the way till it gets up. When it slips and grabs and slips and grabs, (shaking) that is your tire getting pissed off from too much initial inertia and not enough slip. You can either loosen up the hit with less tire pressure, stage rpm or boost or put more power into it to get the perfect amount of slip. You are now in the range that we top alcohol racers deal with on every pass. You need to play with tire pressures, stage rpm, boost and converter for every pass depending on track conditions. The track is now king, you need to listen to what it tells you. Also fyi, in top alcohol cars they mostly run 34.5 tires, the A-fuel cars run 36s. Bigger roll out doesn't necessarily mean better. It depends on where your engine makes peak power. You might try a 34.5 tire if this experiment doesn't work for you. I'm assuming a turbo methanol car will react similarly to a blown methanol dragster. Also Hoosiers are a lot more greasy on the track then a Good Year in my experience.
Your putting the sidewall under tension with the wider wheel. Not allowing the contact patch to move side to side. Essentially controlling the tire by limiting how much it can move laterally.
Same trick the 275 radial guys use, most were running 10 inch wide rims some running 12 inch wide rims. But all the guys who hook up and set records we're using 14 inch wide double beadlock rims.😎😎😎
@@dr.beardie9894 Right, that's the point of small tire but not no prep. No prep is just stupid, especially combined with small tire, minimum traction "racing".
The Grin,Kyle Smile, Dewey Cameo, never gets old, makes one pay attention to "The Caution" !! Like watching the mind bending look on Steve's face ,as he ,thinks
these emojis are priceless and spot on brother... Steve is a character and one of my favorite racers. When you get into the meat and potatoes of the data it gets thick lol cant wait for him to try these out
Its crazy how the faster drag racing gets the more the cars lean toward a radial tire style setup. No prep cars are running steep bar angles for separation to drive the tire into the ground, now big tire cars are stretching tires for sidewall control. I love it
That's not really true the fastest cars aren't running radials and the prep on a radial track is ridiculous this is only happening because tire height limits and most of the 1/8 mile guy's run this because the run is over at 1/2 track where the 1/4 guy's want that tire to grow and mph ath the top end basically this is not a nhra thing
As you are tightening the bead lock ring, make sure the inner lip of the tire is not being smashed under the lock ring. I usually need to use a flat-blade screw driver to poke the inner tire lip over the raised ledge of the wheel.
Love the content Steve. Way back in the day, I was tuner on friends Real Street car in NMRA, 2000-2003, I used an Anderson Ford PMS. Class has been gone for quite a number of years now. But 26x10 slick mandate, 306CI max. Off the shelf heads, intake (had small list of parts allowed, 2.02int 1.6ex max valve, had to run factory camshaft, in this case was a 1989 Mustang)No porting allowed, off the shelf power adder, mandated pulley for dif SC applications, no turbos. Single stage N2O. N2O application were single nozzle before throttle blade wet or dry system. Mandatory 5 speed, proshifted trans mods allowed (no syncros, just blip the gas and yank) but had to be factory style H-type shift (there was a list of allowed trans). We went from a 15x8 rim to a 15x10. Car went from 1.37-1.40 60s to 1.31-1.33. Car went best 9.63 @141.7.
In architectural terms, look up the flying buttress wall construction which stabilizes a vertical wall design. The inclined sidewall is doing the same.
I did this to my road bicycle a few years ago. I went to wider carbon fiber wheels, 25c tires, and lowered the tire pressure, and it improved the tire contact patch as well as reduced rolling resistance, and improved the sidewall bead to rim interface aerodynamics.
Back in the day we used to use a wheel that was a few inches wider than the tire just to square off and flatten contact patch. I never gave much thought to the science of tire flex but at the same time, we weren’t running anywhere near the horsepower that you have.
We did this on our stock eliminator car in 1982. Running on 9" X 29.5" slicks. We went from a 8" wheel to a 10" wheel. It laid the tread flatter on the track, and eliminated tire growth at speed. We actually could get a tiny bit of tire shake even in a stocker... You needed to make a slight change in gear ratio if you still needed the growing tire vs trap engine RPM. When I stepped up to Super Gas in a 2350# small block Opel GT and was running 150MPH in the traps, I was running a 13X30 Goodyear comp eliminator tire on a 13" wheel. got a little bit of tire growth but the recommended wheel for that tire "at the time" was a 10"-12" wheel. Both cars ate up the wider wheels. Yeah, it matters no matter what horsepower you're running. I sure do miss racing... But at 68yo now I won't ever get back to it.
On our mountain motor pro-stock we first started with the Good Year 34.5 X 17X 16. Had major issues with tire roll up. Switched to the Hoosier 34.5 X17X16 and the issue went away. The Hoosier tire has a thicker sidewall and is now as prone to the tire roll up we were experiencing. I can see why the wider rim would help with that as well.
Centrifugal force makes the tire get “skinnier” and wrinkle more with the skinnier wheels. That same centrifugal force on the wider wheels is squaring off the sidewalk and contact patch .
The term your looking for to observe the overall shape is called the profile. The center of the tread area is called the crown/treadface. The edges are shoulders. Your tire heighth is shorter because your stretching the beads. Putting wider wheels on is gonna help with tire shake because your already putting tension against the "slack" of the sidewall, making it not have as much range left to work with as your givin it hell. Love your videos! -Your friendly tire tech 🫡
Thanks Steve for just being you!!! It’s great to watch you teach and explain things that we all have questions about. And another thing I respect about you is that you constantly remind us that you can always learn something new!!!
I just love seeing and hearing Steve get all Geeked out about any and every thing that has to do with going faster! As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
We use this exact same method to adjust our stagger on our dirt race go karts. The wider wheels give us a smaller circumference with the same tire size.
with the sidewalls parallel the car will shift side to side , the wide wheel the side wall are angled opposite which is like adding 2 gussets to a frame it helps control the side to side
The tracks today are lot more sticky than the past an makes it hard for slick guys to get down with out bunch of challenges. I run 33 10.5 w 3300lbs with 13 to 14 lbs air. I was running 5 to 6 lbs years ago. The tire shake is brutal. Trying to get wheel speed on some tracks surface is rough an takes a lot of changes. Thanks for sharing guys be safe
Our buddy Dewey had us rolling as usual. LOL On the wheel change--Adam D. shared this with us long ago and it was surprising that you didn't run a beadlock. Assumed you did and what you'll also notice with the new wheel is the car will want to break the tires loose down track as more boost is added so you may want to look at adding a wicker bill for downforce but the downside is a dead air zone so your chutes will need some help with blossoming. Cheers!
Hatchbacks are real bad with lift from the turbulence as well. Seen it pick the back end up on the big end in smaller lighter car and throw them into the wall. Always been surprised he runs with no wing
If you notice most of your faster no prep small tire run the wider bead locks on the 28/10.5 tire to me it makes the tire patch square and flatter to the track as the narrow wheel makes a arch in tire tread patch should have better contact to the surface
The change in wheel width changes tire sidewall preload. Thats the technical description you seemed to be looking for Steve. I have used this same concept on my own racecar. I run a 245 wide street tire on a 10" wide wheel to maximize preload. Which vastly increased turn in response. Its a more known concept on track cars than drag cars. You can control sidewall deflection to a degree with use of wheel width. Which is pretty cool stuff.
Interesting, one thing to keep an eye on it sidewall getting wore out if it's stiffer. You may need to replace at more frequent intervals. Can't wait to see what difference you feel in the seat if any. I know circle track it made a huge difference in the 90s with those tires I'm kinda a drag racing noob so seeing these tech heavy episodes is really helpful for understanding the why
Tire manufacturers can vary there size by 3% ,so if you have all three manufacturers same size,doesn't equal the same height and width .always measure the roll out so the car doesn't turn due to diameter difference.
I think I got all that but...I also have a headache 😂😂😂 I can't wait to see how ti's works. Another great Video. Sending love from our family to yours. Stay Blessed ❤
To me it would be close to the same 8.5ish inches tall because the ID and OD of the tire are pretty well set. But the wider wheel is kinda “pulling” on the side wall already and will in turn create more strength by utilizing the tensile strength of the side wall. Very very cool. I’ve never even thought about any of this. Thanks for making my gears spin!!!! Love the channel.
The wider wheel stiffens the sidewall by stretching it out wider. It keeps the slick from going into paddle as easy. It lets you keep the softer sidewall in a big tire but act more like a stiff wall and have less paddle and more stability down track
The sidewall is relaxed with the old rim. The wider wheel puts torsion on the sidewall so it’s stiffer. Can’t wait to see the difference. Please make sure to do a follow up. 🍻
At 17:15 of the video notice the amount of bounce the 17" wheel Goodyear tire produced when struck by the heal of Steves hand. A similar strike on the 20" Hoosier combo appeared to produce far less bounce. Maybe indicitive of each combinations liklihood to shake. Great Video.
I am old and years ago I bought the Direct Connection chassis books. They were big on reducing rotating weight as one of the secrets to going fast. Good Luck Steve and thanks for the great content .
If I were you, I would do a few passes with the current setup, but with the new tires. Just to see what it does before changing anything else. I understand you can do all the nessasary math and get a pretty good idea what it will do with the new wheels alone. But it is always nice to confirm your calculations so you know exactly what to change to get the results you want.
Thanks for talking about what no one else is talking about, I've already can't remember everything you said so I'm going to have to rewatch after I'm finished
Tires are integral to going fast and being safe. Hope this solves your problems and helps you go faster. Just opened my new t-shirt of the world’s fastest steel bodied wagon. Keep up the great job.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. when you put the tire on a wider wheel you are changing the relation of the edge of the tread contact and where the bead falls. 17" wide tire on a 17" wide wheel the bead should be directly straight down from the edge of the tread edge. 17" wide tire on a 20" wheel, from edge of tire to the bead is now at a slight angle making the overall tire shorter. I hope that all came out right... Keep up the awesome content Steve!!
The internal inflatable liner / beadlock locks both the inner and outer bead. Whilst the inner bead is less likely to come off, with those wide wheels with just the outer bead locked, the risk increases. Love the super slow mo footage!
Two things that might make it easier to understand. a/ the tyre is a spring - both an air spring with the air pressure affecting its spring rate, and the sidewall wrap under load. The both deform undr load and when the load is released they try to return to their natural state. Changing air pressure, tyre construction, and wheel width will affect the way they respond, and the speed range where the affect is strongest. b/ think of the tyre on the rim as an "an isosceles trapezium" (who said I'd never use this after school?), with the base the tread and the top the rim (the parallel sides).
Nice video, very educational. There is a fine line between under powering the tire and not shaking (which is what most of us do) and over powering the tire and spinning. You were running the old tire combination in between these two points and in the shake zone. You needed to add power the prevent the shake, but not so much power that you would spin.
Worked in the tire industry for a few years. We had Logghe Brothers back in early 70's. They were very popular in the NHRA chassis builds. We did there tire and wheels. Inflating my first slick was a definte learning lesson. The 2 ply side wall gave a high velocity pop enough to move the tire machine.
I love learning stuff about your hot rods. They are so sweet. I’m glad you got a huge budget to keep things moving forward. Very fast forward. Stay well !!!!
The biggest change is going with a wider wheel than the tire rather than the smaller wheel than the tire. Using a wheel that is wider than the tire will for sure change the overall diameter at high rpm and control that growth of the tire diameter. I am surprised you did not have rubbing issues with that old tire inside that body somewhere. And that will be your new issue to monitor closely in that you will have to watch out for wheel well clearance with any sway what so ever. Looking good though. Glad to see you got those tire engineers on your side helping. So many HP guys forget all the other parts that go into total performance. Horse power gives you a higher top end performance POTENTIAL but traction is a lot of the game getting to that top end range to use that potential gain.
Hello Steve, the considerably new wider rim (+4") with the same size tyre is effectively making both sidewall profiles into a triangle shape, unlike your previous wheel/tyre combo which is more oblong in shape....obviously the triangle shape by stretching the sidewalls out is far stronger & superior to deflection which will be better at limiting your tyre shake scenario... Smaller overall rolling circumference is going to gear everything down so a taller first gear is probably a must...really interested to see you testing this set-up👍🇬🇧.
For a person that doesn’t have a race car I sure am soaking up some knowledge that I will probably never use😂. Every video you do is VERY interesting! Thank you Steve! Even though the tires are the same size the new wheels sure do change the whole dynamic of the tire. It’s like Jedi mind tricks on the brain😂
This was very interesting. Back in the late 90’s I was helping with a IHRA Outlaw Street car. The only thing available was bead lock. I have heard of the liner style setup but didn’t know anything about them. It’s funny how some technology seems to go back and forth.
With the sidewall more straight up 90 degrees on the old wheel it allows the tread to move and wobble. The sidewall on the wider wheel is at an angle facing in on both sides. It's like 45 degree bracing on some framing almost. The increased angle on the sidewall will stiffing the movement of the tread.
you were looking for the word "leverage" speaking of the sidewall. less leverage-more force needed to overcome inner resistance caused by the field of vectors of sidewall. it may seem like 1/17th difference in height but in the model describing tyre behavior it is a lot more than 1/17th. and it will be enough to get you in the "comfort" zone of both launch and 200ft
the original tire is a rectangle which can shift side to side, the wider tire create a trapezoid which is more stable and prevents the side to side movement
Have you ever played with a tire dyno and take an in depth look at tire load to rate of deflection you can learn even more. It aids in syncing your shocks and spring loads to match the tires even further and help to tune the suspension in that much further. Which in turn will all you to continue to yield better results while pushing the car further. In a world where data is everything knowing how much load your tires can take before deflection would be huge for you.
@slowpoke96Z28 yes calculates out load rates on the tire before tire deflection allows you to dial the springs shocks in to achieve maximum tire scotch.
I have used those on a vintage top alcohol funny car.. the compounds available today, are insane. Goodyears are known for being harder.. Your car may feel looser, so don’t overdrive it, if it gets stupid, keep it straight, they will come around, People tend to react to a feeling that’s not their… remember that. And these get better as you use them, But once you start having traction issues, don’t waste your time knocking pounds out of them.. throw them away and get 2 more If you run into tire shake, you may have a adjusted your rear shocks and spring rate 10ths lower, to get more weight on ass to help with forward bite
HA - that sidewall measuring 'stumped the swami' for a moment - HA - a perfect - "What the....' look on your face as your were trying to figure things out with the tape-measure - HA. With the wider rim appearing tp slightly changing the 'flat profile' of the tyre (as appears to be seen - it looks to be making the very outer edge of the tyre more 'pronounced' compared to the wider section of the tyre contact surface) - will that have any effect on the contact patch at launch? And could that require a slight tweak of the static tyre pressure at//for launch? And I am assuming - in theory - that as the tyre speed increases - the centripetal (HA - my brain gets confused re the words centripetal and centrifugal) force on the tyre makes it grow taller and would also tend to decrease the tyre patch - hence the possible altered contact patch at static or launch is not so much of an issue?. And for sure - that 'little rim//tyre change' will have a flow on effect to many other parameters of the car. HA - "In theory communism works" - Homer. CHEERS from AUSTRALIA.
@21:56 the stretch in the sidewall replaces the paddling part if the tread with air. A 24" tire on a 20" wheel has the same efective contact patch as a 20" tire on the same wheel. So when you had a 20" tire on a 16" wheel when it paddled you only had a 16-18" contact patch. With the same width tire on a wider wheel you get a wider contact patch after it wears in. It might be trash for that tire for the first run but once it runbers down it will be "wider" even though it's the same tire on a wider wheel.
There is a sweet spot though it isn't always the wider the wheel is the wider the contact patch is. A certain width, aspect ratio, and construction tire has an optimal ratio for rim width to contact patch width
Great tech talk sir. Glad to see you're making the change. Honestly big cheif from street outlaws touched on this very thing about a year ago when he was building a small tire car. Small tire guys claim they can use the sidewalls as a traction advantage. Dont hold me to it but I think the cleeter crew runs stretched sidewalls
Hi Steve , I am sure that you will like the beadlock and the extra wide rim . Your thoughts on the wide rim controlling the tire shake is 100 % correct! Use it in our motorcycle powered dragster with a T/F motor at 1800 hp
Steve I really appreciate the way you are leaping to a (informed) conclusion based on early data. I typically do the same thing while early diagnosing a problem. Sometimes I’m right, sometimes I’m wrong. But, like you, I learn from my mistakes and apply the knowledge downstream.
In my (very) limited experience being with my father while he drag raced back in the day, he paid a lot of attention to his tires. He didnt have close to the power or speed in his street legal sleeper that you do. Now that your tire is shorter, you effectively lowered your overall gearing. You also reduced the overall traction as a taller tire with the same width, given everything else the same, will grip better. Are you going to change or look at anything this may affect? And as i type this, you just touched on it at the very end. O well. I'm posting it anyhow. Love your video.
That's the ticket beadlocked, lighter, wider rim pulling the tread down to a shorter height changing the effective gear ratio to a higher numerical number lower gear is going to even take your number higher when you wrinkle it also so your really going to come out of the hole and cut a good light super fast then getting out and rolling the tire will start to stand up a little more and firm getting rid of tire shake out further as you go out and that 20 " wheel keeping your tread in the center instead Of walking left and walking right like it did on your old narrow rim so much more control going to make you grin from ear to ear. Oh you'll be happy bro ! I am glad seeing you do this. I see so many more advantages !
I’ve never left a comment before but I enjoy the fact when you have a problem or malfunction the first thing you are doing is thinking why. I can even see you thinking on the video. Don’t know if you read these but I hope it helps your channels algorithm
I think it will help too by when the wheel spins and the centrifugal force tries to throw the tire off (increases circumference) it will reduce the sidewall narrowing and getting sucked inwards towards the center of the wheel. All over better control.of that rotating mass, awesome video 👍👍👍👍
Radial guys are doing the same thing because they are hitting the tire so hard and it’s causing them to wrinkle them and you can’t do that to a radial. Stretching them onto a wider wheel makes them even more stiff than they already are and lets them really hit the tire hard on good radial prep.
I'm very interested to see if the new wider wheel will allow the tire to grow in diameter at higher speeds. I would think the new wider wheel wouldn't allow the tire to grow as much as with the narrower wheel. This is such an interesting topic! Also your video editing and audio overlay is Great!!!! Thanks Steve! I defiantly learned something on wheel power ratings and other things
Having a wider rim for a narrow tire "which these tires aren't really narrow" helps with side wall deflection keeps the meat of the tire centered a lot better.
“ At a very minimum, it changes everything.” -Steve Morris
That's a shirt quote if I've ever seen one.
Ha! I got a kick out of that one too.
Agreed! @ the very minimum we need the T-Shirt and maybe Steve needs his own bottled Wadder!
Bead lock great change but what you'll notice is 20 to 40 ft out she will be more sensitive to loosing traction and going up in smoke and it will be more sensitive to track prep and temperature.....with the good comes the bad.....
And don’t forget; Orlando has some really flat walls!
Dewey always has the look of- When your done I need a treat...lmao
Definitely needs some ear scratches.
@@porkrindwhat i was thinking too. 😄
"Stretching" the tire like that is also seen in small tire classes. The 275 guys been doing it for years with great success. Never thought of the pro mod/top fuel ratings for wheels before. Thats nutty
275... I don't know metric, what's that in freedom units?
@@_BangDroid_ about half a cow's body width per tire
Only a man that has dedicated his life to building engines and decking heads would be so impressed with how flat something is.
An old saying from Bicycle racing is "An Ounce off the wheel is worth a Pound off the frame".
So 11 lbs off the wheel dam yea I did the math 176 lol
X2 @@Spudstrodamus
@@Spudstrodamus An "Old Saying" is *Not* a physics equation. I assumed Steve's audience was well enough educated to understand the difference. I'll put this down as a *Teachable Moment*. Rotating mass will effect acceleration more than static mass--and it's clearly not a 16:1 ratio! I thought "Old Saying" would have made clear that it was simply a *realization* that was made long before modern methods of quantifying the actual physics were available to anyone.
So 15 people understood the meaning, and for the outliers, you now have a better understanding of the subtleties of the English language! Good Day to all! And now I'm going to play Wordle.
@@llewellynquay9463 So what is the ratio then?
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 In a car ive always heard taking 1 pound off a wheel (or unsprung weight) is equal to 10 sprung pounds.
Out of everyone we all watch Steve Morris to me is the best. So down to earth.
Yes, for one, I watch Cleetus for entertainment, I watch Steve Morris for knowledge. And entertainment. Yea, there are others but these might be my main two.
And KSR.
Steve has a way of explaining complex motor functions in a way that a beginner could follow.
I'm just here for the dog.
If you like the deep cut kinda stuff also check out Jafromobile. Totally different, he's not building 4k hp cars but his presentation and methodology is astounding and the depth of information is amazing. Great calming voice, too.
between steve morris and KSR
Wider wheel, creates lower side wall profile, and creates a wider and more controlled contact patch with the same tire. Deep shiz. Good stuff.
That's like people don't understand why a 28 is a small tire and 29 is a big. They don't understand that a taller tire with low pressure makes it have a longer tread patch
@@jeremymackevincaylor5041no that is not the case . A 29 is bigger than a 28 but it’s personal opinion on what constitutes a big tire . I would say over anything 30 inches tall and 12 inches wide is big tire .
@@jkfonyi- Anything bigger than a 28x10.5 is not a “small” tire.
A wider wheel also limits your tire growth at speed
@jeremymackevincaylor5041 no offense, but your opinion doesn't matter. Rule sets matter. Promoters and organizations make rules. Almost everywhere than races "small tire" classes has the same rules 28x10.5 non W (275/60 15 if fhey allow radials). Some places in the bread basket go 29x10.5 non W. Show up with anything bigger they are gonna put you in a "big tire" class. Period
The tire you were using was more than sufficient for what you "were" doing before...that said now your really getting after it and pouring the coals to it... Once you figure out what this tire likes I think you are going to love it...
3:34 before you hit the wall. The concrete barriers aren't used as a calibration gauge for when to upgrade your equipment to your car's performance level
I thought that's exactly what they were for, go faster till you hit the wall then back it down a notch 😂@@mostlymotorized
@@mostlymotorized if you actually paid attention you would know that this isn’t why he hit the wall. A transmission line blew when he hit the wall.
Is he stretching the bead outwards? Too keep the sidwalls from going side to side.
@@____MC____ I think you are correct. 😉
Tire shake like you are experiencing can just as easily be that you are not putting enough power into it. Once you have reached the power range that actually makes the sidewalls on those huge tires do their job, you are in the pocket of traction you want, all be it at the bottom of the pocket. You need that tire to slip all the way till it gets up. When it slips and grabs and slips and grabs, (shaking) that is your tire getting pissed off from too much initial inertia and not enough slip. You can either loosen up the hit with less tire pressure, stage rpm or boost or put more power into it to get the perfect amount of slip. You are now in the range that we top alcohol racers deal with on every pass. You need to play with tire pressures, stage rpm, boost and converter for every pass depending on track conditions. The track is now king, you need to listen to what it tells you. Also fyi, in top alcohol cars they mostly run 34.5 tires, the A-fuel cars run 36s. Bigger roll out doesn't necessarily mean better. It depends on where your engine makes peak power. You might try a 34.5 tire if this experiment doesn't work for you. I'm assuming a turbo methanol car will react similarly to a blown methanol dragster. Also Hoosiers are a lot more greasy on the track then a Good Year in my experience.
Your putting the sidewall under tension with the wider wheel. Not allowing the contact patch to move side to side. Essentially controlling the tire by limiting how much it can move laterally.
Same trick the 275 radial guys use, most were running 10 inch wide rims some running 12 inch wide rims. But all the guys who hook up and set records we're using 14 inch wide double beadlock rims.😎😎😎
Small tire No Prep racers are doing the same thing.
@@danmyers9372 Small tire no prep lmao, is there a dumber way to race?
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 lower power means its easier to get into racing, not everyone owns a race engine shop
@@dr.beardie9894 Right, that's the point of small tire but not no prep. No prep is just stupid, especially combined with small tire, minimum traction "racing".
Small thing but if you put the rim inside the tire before mounting beadlock then there is no need to use pry bars and dent the wheels.
That is a nice-looking wagon wheel.
Looks more like a SpaceX Starship rocket nozzle! Lol That rim is a beast!
Momma rock me like a wagon wheel. Rock me any way you feel. Heyyyyy momma rock me
The Grin,Kyle Smile, Dewey Cameo, never gets old, makes one pay attention to "The Caution" !! Like watching the mind bending look on Steve's face ,as he ,thinks
these emojis are priceless and spot on brother... Steve is a character and one of my favorite racers. When you get into the meat and potatoes of the data it gets thick lol cant wait for him to try these out
Its crazy how the faster drag racing gets the more the cars lean toward a radial tire style setup. No prep cars are running steep bar angles for separation to drive the tire into the ground, now big tire cars are stretching tires for sidewall control. I love it
That's not really true the fastest cars aren't running radials and the prep on a radial track is ridiculous this is only happening because tire height limits and most of the 1/8 mile guy's run this because the run is over at 1/2 track where the 1/4 guy's want that tire to grow and mph ath the top end basically this is not a nhra thing
As you are tightening the bead lock ring, make sure the inner lip of the tire is not being smashed under the lock ring. I usually need to use a flat-blade screw driver to poke the inner tire lip over the raised ledge of the wheel.
I was watching that and thinking he got really lucky. And then thought he’d get it with one tire spoon lol. Now he knows though.
Love the content Steve. Way back in the day, I was tuner on friends Real Street car in NMRA, 2000-2003, I used an Anderson Ford PMS. Class has been gone for quite a number of years now. But 26x10 slick mandate, 306CI max. Off the shelf heads, intake (had small list of parts allowed, 2.02int 1.6ex max valve, had to run factory camshaft, in this case was a 1989 Mustang)No porting allowed, off the shelf power adder, mandated pulley for dif SC applications, no turbos. Single stage N2O. N2O application were single nozzle before throttle blade wet or dry system. Mandatory 5 speed, proshifted trans mods allowed (no syncros, just blip the gas and yank) but had to be factory style H-type shift (there was a list of allowed trans). We went from a 15x8 rim to a 15x10. Car went from 1.37-1.40 60s to 1.31-1.33. Car went best 9.63 @141.7.
In architectural terms, look up the flying buttress wall construction which stabilizes a vertical wall design. The inclined sidewall is doing the same.
I never saw the entire car flex like that during the tire shake until the slow motion. Can't imagine how violent that is.
Tire shake actually killed Funny Car racer Eric Medlin back in 2007. Have heard it actually ripped his brain stem loose.
Tire shake on high HP cars is violent as hell, it destroys everything.
Imagine half + of that horsepower being changed Into a reciprocating force with no balance. Of course it's violent!
More sidewall stretch. Even at lower pressures, the sidewall will be more stiff on a wider rim.
For a minute it looked like Dewey was thanking you for getting him a billet dog dish.
I did this to my road bicycle a few years ago. I went to wider carbon fiber wheels, 25c tires, and lowered the tire pressure, and it improved the tire contact patch as well as reduced rolling resistance, and improved the sidewall bead to rim interface aerodynamics.
Not only do you sound like a cool guy, you look like one too.
Back in the day we used to use a wheel that was a few inches wider than the tire just to square off and flatten contact patch. I never gave much thought to the science of tire flex but at the same time, we weren’t running anywhere near the horsepower that you have.
We did this on our stock eliminator car in 1982. Running on 9" X 29.5" slicks. We went from a 8" wheel to a 10" wheel. It laid the tread flatter on the track, and eliminated tire growth at speed. We actually could get a tiny bit of tire shake even in a stocker... You needed to make a slight change in gear ratio if you still needed the growing tire vs trap engine RPM. When I stepped up to Super Gas in a 2350# small block Opel GT and was running 150MPH in the traps, I was running a 13X30 Goodyear comp eliminator tire on a 13" wheel. got a little bit of tire growth but the recommended wheel for that tire "at the time" was a 10"-12" wheel. Both cars ate up the wider wheels. Yeah, it matters no matter what horsepower you're running. I sure do miss racing... But at 68yo now I won't ever get back to it.
Don't say that not a dam thing bad about 68 get back into it before it's to late go for it
On our mountain motor pro-stock we first started with the Good Year 34.5 X 17X 16. Had major issues with tire roll up. Switched to the Hoosier 34.5 X17X16 and the issue went away. The Hoosier tire has a thicker sidewall and is now as prone to the tire roll up we were experiencing. I can see why the wider rim would help with that as well.
The wider rim stretches out and stiffens the sidewall even more.
Centrifugal force makes the tire get “skinnier” and wrinkle more with the skinnier wheels. That same centrifugal force on the wider wheels is squaring off the sidewalk and contact patch .
The term your looking for to observe the overall shape is called the profile.
The center of the tread area is called the crown/treadface.
The edges are shoulders.
Your tire heighth is shorter because your stretching the beads.
Putting wider wheels on is gonna help with tire shake because your already putting tension against the "slack" of the sidewall, making it not have as much range left to work with as your givin it hell.
Love your videos!
-Your friendly tire tech 🫡
Thanks Steve for just being you!!! It’s great to watch you teach and explain things that we all have questions about. And another thing I respect about you is that you constantly remind us that you can always learn something new!!!
I just love seeing and hearing Steve get all Geeked out about any and every thing that has to do with going faster! As Always, May God Bless you and yours! 😇
Bless your heart Steve. Fresh off a wreck and you still want to go faster.
We use this exact same method to adjust our stagger on our dirt race go karts. The wider wheels give us a smaller circumference with the same tire size.
with the sidewalls parallel the car will shift side to side , the wide wheel the side wall are angled opposite which is like adding 2 gussets to a frame it helps control the side to side
The tracks today are lot more sticky than the past an makes it hard for slick guys to get down with out bunch of challenges. I run 33 10.5 w 3300lbs with 13 to 14 lbs air. I was running 5 to 6 lbs years ago. The tire shake is brutal. Trying to get wheel speed on some tracks surface is rough an takes a lot of changes. Thanks for sharing guys be safe
Yeah, some tracks are tending to prep more for radial tires which is way too sticky for slicks to get any wheel speed.
Our buddy Dewey had us rolling as usual. LOL On the wheel change--Adam D. shared this with us long ago and it was surprising that you didn't run a beadlock. Assumed you did and what you'll also notice with the new wheel is the car will want to break the tires loose down track as more boost is added so you may want to look at adding a wicker bill for downforce but the downside is a dead air zone so your chutes will need some help with blossoming. Cheers!
Hatchbacks are real bad with lift from the turbulence as well. Seen it pick the back end up on the big end in smaller lighter car and throw them into the wall. Always been surprised he runs with no wing
If you notice most of your faster no prep small tire run the wider bead locks on the 28/10.5 tire to me it makes the tire patch square and flatter to the track as the narrow wheel makes a arch in tire tread patch should have better contact to the surface
The change in wheel width changes tire sidewall preload. Thats the technical description you seemed to be looking for Steve. I have used this same concept on my own racecar. I run a 245 wide street tire on a 10" wide wheel to maximize preload. Which vastly increased turn in response. Its a more known concept on track cars than drag cars. You can control sidewall deflection to a degree with use of wheel width. Which is pretty cool stuff.
You may want to check the roll out also, and stretch accordingly. I think that the wider rim tightens the side wall.
Interesting, one thing to keep an eye on it sidewall getting wore out if it's stiffer. You may need to replace at more frequent intervals. Can't wait to see what difference you feel in the seat if any. I know circle track it made a huge difference in the 90s with those tires I'm kinda a drag racing noob so seeing these tech heavy episodes is really helpful for understanding the why
Tire manufacturers can vary there size by 3% ,so if you have all three manufacturers same size,doesn't equal the same height and width .always measure the roll out so the car doesn't turn due to diameter difference.
Love the growth your going through steve, thanks for bringing us along for the ride. Technically speaking 😊
I think I got all that but...I also have a headache 😂😂😂
I can't wait to see how ti's works.
Another great Video.
Sending love from our family to yours.
Stay Blessed ❤
Just loving the editing these days. From the little note about Dewey always chewing stuff to the celebration when Steve got the tire on the rim
Steve's brain gears were almost smoking! Great info!
To me it would be close to the same 8.5ish inches tall because the ID and OD of the tire are pretty well set. But the wider wheel is kinda “pulling” on the side wall already and will in turn create more strength by utilizing the tensile strength of the side wall. Very very cool. I’ve never even thought about any of this. Thanks for making my gears spin!!!! Love the channel.
The wider wheel stiffens the sidewall by stretching it out wider. It keeps the slick from going into paddle as easy. It lets you keep the softer sidewall in a big tire but act more like a stiff wall and have less paddle and more stability down track
The sidewall is relaxed with the old rim. The wider wheel puts torsion on the sidewall so it’s stiffer. Can’t wait to see the difference. Please make sure to do a follow up. 🍻
At 17:15 of the video notice the amount of bounce the 17" wheel Goodyear tire produced when struck by the heal of Steves hand. A similar strike on the 20" Hoosier combo appeared to produce far less bounce. Maybe indicitive of each combinations liklihood to shake. Great Video.
With the wider rim it forces the side walls out to put more tension on the tire to prevent the tire hopping
“Orlando your wall is really flat - it’s amazing” 😂
I am old and years ago I bought the Direct Connection chassis books. They were big on reducing rotating weight as one of the secrets to going fast. Good Luck Steve and thanks for the great content .
Love watching Steve process new info. As always thanks for sharing.
The smile on your face says a thousand words. :) Just love your channel. The No.1 channel to go to every week. 😛🙃😛
If I were you, I would do a few passes with the current setup, but with the new tires. Just to see what it does before changing anything else. I understand you can do all the nessasary math and get a pretty good idea what it will do with the new wheels alone. But it is always nice to confirm your calculations so you know exactly what to change to get the results you want.
Pretty cool stuff here. Looking forward to see and here the results of the testing.
Thanks for talking about what no one else is talking about, I've already can't remember everything you said so I'm going to have to rewatch after I'm finished
Tires are integral to going fast and being safe. Hope this solves your problems and helps you go faster. Just opened my new t-shirt of the world’s fastest steel bodied wagon. Keep up the great job.
The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. when you put the tire on a wider wheel you are changing the relation of the edge of the tread contact and where the bead falls. 17" wide tire on a 17" wide wheel the bead should be directly straight down from the edge of the tread edge. 17" wide tire on a 20" wheel, from edge of tire to the bead is now at a slight angle making the overall tire shorter. I hope that all came out right... Keep up the awesome content Steve!!
We won't tell Nasa you stole a rocket nozzle and turned it in to a wheel.
That looks more like a SpaceX Starship rocket nozzle! Lol
@@Hoaxer51I thought it was a fancy flower pot.
It looked like a bar stool to me! It might need to be a tad taller, maybe with an old SMX crank for a center support and pivot.
😂 fr!
@@CGT80 That would be pretty metal ngl
The explosions, bald eagle and jet made my drink come out my nose... Keep it up, good stuff.
😂😂
@@stevemorrisracinghi
😁 every fuse you fix brings out the next one!
The internal inflatable liner / beadlock locks both the inner and outer bead. Whilst the inner bead is less likely to come off, with those wide wheels with just the outer bead locked, the risk increases. Love the super slow mo footage!
Two things that might make it easier to understand.
a/ the tyre is a spring - both an air spring with the air pressure affecting its spring rate, and the sidewall wrap under load. The both deform undr load and when the load is released they try to return to their natural state. Changing air pressure, tyre construction, and wheel width will affect the way they respond, and the speed range where the affect is strongest.
b/ think of the tyre on the rim as an "an isosceles trapezium" (who said I'd never use this after school?), with the base the tread and the top the rim (the parallel sides).
Nice video, very educational. There is a fine line between under powering the tire and not shaking (which is what most of us do) and over powering the tire and spinning. You were running the old tire combination in between these two points and in the shake zone. You needed to add power the prevent the shake, but not so much power that you would spin.
Worked in the tire industry for a few years. We had Logghe Brothers back in early 70's. They were very popular in the NHRA chassis builds. We did there tire and wheels. Inflating my first slick was a definte learning lesson. The 2 ply side wall gave a high velocity pop enough to move the tire machine.
I love learning stuff about your hot rods. They are so sweet. I’m glad you got a huge budget to keep things moving forward. Very fast forward. Stay well !!!!
Steve this is all so interesting. Thanks for sharing all of this new knowledge. God Bless you and yours.
This is a great teaching lesson when you can show the results of what can go wrong.
Yeah, it looks like you were hitting a 6 inch curb over and over and I am so glad that you changed tires and are trying something different
The biggest change is going with a wider wheel than the tire rather than the smaller wheel than the tire. Using a wheel that is wider than the tire will for sure change the overall diameter at high rpm and control that growth of the tire diameter. I am surprised you did not have rubbing issues with that old tire inside that body somewhere. And that will be your new issue to monitor closely in that you will have to watch out for wheel well clearance with any sway what so ever. Looking good though. Glad to see you got those tire engineers on your side helping. So many HP guys forget all the other parts that go into total performance. Horse power gives you a higher top end performance POTENTIAL but traction is a lot of the game getting to that top end range to use that potential gain.
Hello Steve, the considerably new wider rim (+4") with the same size tyre is effectively making both sidewall profiles into a triangle shape, unlike your previous wheel/tyre combo which is more oblong in shape....obviously the triangle shape by stretching the sidewalls out is far stronger & superior to deflection which will be better at limiting your tyre shake scenario...
Smaller overall rolling circumference is going to gear everything down so a taller first gear is probably a must...really interested to see you testing this set-up👍🇬🇧.
Thanks Steve you help bring understanding to the masses. Now we can watch and understand the how and why things happen.
It seems the more money and technology in the rims, the better for the tires and traction. Can't wait to see the wagon go back down the track
For a person that doesn’t have a race car I sure am soaking up some knowledge that I will probably never use😂. Every video you do is VERY interesting! Thank you Steve!
Even though the tires are the same size the new wheels sure do change the whole dynamic of the tire. It’s like Jedi mind tricks on the brain😂
Easily solved by trading your financial stability for a race car. Don't ask your wife.
I would think the added tension on the sidewall will help it not flex as much
This was very interesting. Back in the late 90’s I was helping with a IHRA Outlaw Street car. The only thing available was bead lock. I have heard of the liner style setup but didn’t know anything about them. It’s funny how some technology seems to go back and forth.
With the sidewall more straight up 90 degrees on the old wheel it allows the tread to move and wobble. The sidewall on the wider wheel is at an angle facing in on both sides. It's like 45 degree bracing on some framing almost. The increased angle on the sidewall will stiffing the movement of the tread.
you were looking for the word "leverage" speaking of the sidewall. less leverage-more force needed to overcome inner resistance caused by the field of vectors of sidewall. it may seem like 1/17th difference in height but in the model describing tyre behavior it is a lot more than 1/17th. and it will be enough to get you in the "comfort" zone of both launch and 200ft
the original tire is a rectangle which can shift side to side, the wider tire create a trapezoid which is more stable and prevents the side to side movement
Have you ever played with a tire dyno and take an in depth look at tire load to rate of deflection you can learn even more. It aids in syncing your shocks and spring loads to match the tires even further and help to tune the suspension in that much further. Which in turn will all you to continue to yield better results while pushing the car further. In a world where data is everything knowing how much load your tires can take before deflection would be huge for you.
A tire dyno?
@slowpoke96Z28 yes calculates out load rates on the tire before tire deflection allows you to dial the springs shocks in to achieve maximum tire scotch.
I have used those on a vintage top alcohol funny car..
the compounds available today, are insane.
Goodyears are known for being harder..
Your car may feel looser, so don’t overdrive it, if it gets stupid, keep it straight, they will come around,
People tend to react to a feeling that’s not their… remember that. And these get better as you use them,
But once you start having traction issues, don’t waste your time knocking pounds out of them.. throw them away and get 2 more
If you run into tire shake, you may have a adjusted your rear shocks and spring rate 10ths lower, to get more weight on ass to help with forward bite
It’s so cool watching those gears turn in Steve’s head. 💪
HA - that sidewall measuring 'stumped the swami' for a moment - HA - a perfect - "What the....' look on your face as your were trying to figure things out with the tape-measure - HA. With the wider rim appearing tp slightly changing the 'flat profile' of the tyre (as appears to be seen - it looks to be making the very outer edge of the tyre more 'pronounced' compared to the wider section of the tyre contact surface) - will that have any effect on the contact patch at launch? And could that require a slight tweak of the static tyre pressure at//for launch? And I am assuming - in theory - that as the tyre speed increases - the centripetal (HA - my brain gets confused re the words centripetal and centrifugal) force on the tyre makes it grow taller and would also tend to decrease the tyre patch - hence the possible altered contact patch at static or launch is not so much of an issue?. And for sure - that 'little rim//tyre change' will have a flow on effect to many other parameters of the car. HA - "In theory communism works" - Homer. CHEERS from AUSTRALIA.
@21:56 the stretch in the sidewall replaces the paddling part if the tread with air. A 24" tire on a 20" wheel has the same efective contact patch as a 20" tire on the same wheel. So when you had a 20" tire on a 16" wheel when it paddled you only had a 16-18" contact patch. With the same width tire on a wider wheel you get a wider contact patch after it wears in. It might be trash for that tire for the first run but once it runbers down it will be "wider" even though it's the same tire on a wider wheel.
There is a sweet spot though it isn't always the wider the wheel is the wider the contact patch is. A certain width, aspect ratio, and construction tire has an optimal ratio for rim width to contact patch width
Great tech talk sir. Glad to see you're making the change. Honestly big cheif from street outlaws touched on this very thing about a year ago when he was building a small tire car. Small tire guys claim they can use the sidewalls as a traction advantage. Dont hold me to it but I think the cleeter crew runs stretched sidewalls
First time I've seen anybody do anything about about tires always informative.👍
Hi Steve , I am sure that you will like the beadlock and the extra wide rim . Your thoughts on the wide rim controlling the tire shake is 100 % correct! Use it in our motorcycle powered dragster with a T/F motor at 1800 hp
That’s an insane amount of power for a motorcycle! Wholly cow!
Steve I really appreciate the way you are leaping to a (informed) conclusion based on early data. I typically do the same thing while early diagnosing a problem. Sometimes I’m right, sometimes I’m wrong. But, like you, I learn from my mistakes and apply the knowledge downstream.
You should do a side by side slow mo comparison between the tire to prove your point to the viewers!!! Thank you for all you do
In my (very) limited experience being with my father while he drag raced back in the day, he paid a lot of attention to his tires. He didnt have close to the power or speed in his street legal sleeper that you do. Now that your tire is shorter, you effectively lowered your overall gearing. You also reduced the overall traction as a taller tire with the same width, given everything else the same, will grip better.
Are you going to change or look at anything this may affect? And as i type this, you just touched on it at the very end. O well. I'm posting it anyhow.
Love your video.
That theory is used also in autocross racing.The rim width is wider than the tread width of the tire.Makes the tire more stable in the corners.
I wonder how often people blame tire manufacturers for their own bad setups. Great video, Steve! I learned a lot.
We ran a true 10" tire with a 12" wheel back in the mid 90s to help with sidewall stabilization and utilize the entire width of tread down track...
That's the ticket beadlocked, lighter, wider rim pulling the tread down to a shorter height changing the effective gear ratio to a higher numerical number lower gear is going to even take your number higher when you wrinkle it also so your really going to come out of the hole and cut a good light super fast then getting out and rolling the tire will start to stand up a little more and firm getting rid of tire shake out further as you go out and that 20 " wheel keeping your tread in the center instead Of walking left and walking right like it did on your old narrow rim so much more control going to make you grin from ear to ear. Oh you'll be happy bro ! I am glad seeing you do this. I see so many more advantages !
I’ve never left a comment before but I enjoy the fact when you have a problem or malfunction the first thing you are doing is thinking why. I can even see you thinking on the video. Don’t know if you read these but I hope it helps your channels algorithm
I think it will help too by when the wheel spins and the centrifugal force tries to throw the tire off (increases circumference) it will reduce the sidewall narrowing and getting sucked inwards towards the center of the wheel. All over better control.of that rotating mass, awesome video 👍👍👍👍
Great content Steve. Extremely interesting. Can't wait to see the wagon back on track!!!
Great explanation and demonstration with videos mixed in. Thanks Steve.
Radial guys are doing the same thing because they are hitting the tire so hard and it’s causing them to wrinkle them and you can’t do that to a radial. Stretching them onto a wider wheel makes them even more stiff than they already are and lets them really hit the tire hard on good radial prep.
I'm very interested to see if the new wider wheel will allow the tire to grow in diameter at higher speeds. I would think the new wider wheel wouldn't allow the tire to grow as much as with the narrower wheel. This is such an interesting topic! Also your video editing and audio overlay is Great!!!! Thanks Steve! I defiantly learned something on wheel power ratings and other things
Having a wider rim for a narrow tire "which these tires aren't really narrow" helps with side wall deflection keeps the meat of the tire centered a lot better.