This is an an absolute must watch - yes, invest the time. Wonderful that it will remain online as an educational experience even for those of us who are quite familiar with the multiple shreddings of the Aryan Invasion hypothesis. This is one for watching, downloading and bookmarking for regular and ready reference.
51:00 IMO it doesn’t have to be only one tracer dye throughout the vast geographic area. For example one transition could happen in 6000 BCE into Anatolia that could be identified using tracer dye A in aDNA of the time carrying language A. From there a second migration occurs in 5000 BCE. At that time the tracer dye B could be different and they might carry language A which they learned. May be original people in Anatolia were concurred by incoming people with tracer dye A, then concurred people started speaking new language A and were kicked out. Now they carry the language A but have a different tracer sue B.
1:24:00 IMO these Bronze Age kingdoms that are falling have currently arid areas, but when they were kingdoms were thriving with some leftover effect of high humidity continuing even after 4.2k event. The kingdoms would not have prospered where they did with aridity seen today. The same increase In aridity may have caused havoc in Steppe causing Yamnaya to go scatter to ALL directions, and got absorbed into local populations already speaking various Indo European languages.
The Haggerty Report largely supports my own views since long ago regarding the Steppe Hypothesis with its general character of oversimplification. Good presentation and relevant comments!
Superb presentation - really questioning the Steppe hypothesis at this point. Another major problem with Kurgan hypothesis in an Indo Aryan / Indian context is that the Mittani are attested as early as 1761 BC in Tell Leilan. They bear later Vedic language, with words like pingala and prefixes/suffixes like brhad, sapta, uru, ksatra etc. There's elephant and peacock iconography and items associated with them as well which marks them as Indian rather than Andronovo in origin. Asiatic elephant remains in the near East are all post 1800 BC which lines up with this. Mittanis speak later RV-derived Sanskrit, so they were most certainly residents of India. There's no Andronovo material culture in India in contrast. So, either Sintashta/Andronovo is too late to be a source, and assuming Steppe, puts it back further to Fatayanavo as a source. Or we indeed need to consider an alternative hypothesis like Heggarty et al. Steppe admixture in Indians has a mean date range of 1000-500 BC as per Dates analysis by Narasimhan et al. Swat samples have female mediated steppe ancestry.
I have to take a bone with the analysis here. Everyone tries to come up with this insane notion that there is some pure version of either IE speaking or Dravidian speaking population that was the IVC. Such things do not happen in hard science. Just looking at the the linguistic based Monte Carlo simulations of these mathematical models, it does not indicate such purity. Clearly these arguments show clearly how weak Kushal is in some areas. IVC was probably a blend of Dravidian and IE speakers. The thing that is missed is the population sizes. What are we claiming here? Are we stating that these migrations were 1000s of people, 100000s of people, millions of people. What was the proportion of the migrant population vs the population that was already there. Typically through out history the Indus and the Gangetic valleys have been the largest populations in the world. Think about this the so called Mohenjodaro Harrappan cities were 40000 people and this was the largest city. Any migrant population would have been a fraction of this size. Without a population dynamics and migration model of populations just a pure linguistic and genetic model is inadequate in trying to explain the origins. Do people take into account the terrian that they have to navigate to come to India? It is not easy. What was their logistics? Over what period of time? What this entire Western effort to find the origins of IE languages and trying to come up with central asian, Anatolian etc. theories is nonsense and does not pass the basic smell test. We just do not have a good consistent explanation. These folks just read papers and do not apply their minds. The Aryan Invasion Theory or any kind of Migration-Replacement theory does not pass the basic smell test. It is very unlikely that the immigrant population was so advanced in their weaponry that they were able to just dominate the local populations and spread their language and culture. The only way one can explain the spread of the IE languages is the Out of India theory. We need to understand the direction of movements. It may not have been migration at all. It may have been a constant back and forth and given that they were here to trade perhaps with the Indus populations they had to learn the language of the more prosperous. Like we learn English today. The main reason folks learn a new langauge is opportunity. Why is it that there is no effort from the Indian side to theorize? We need white Europeans to tell us their racist theories?
Two linguistic groups distinctive to each other cannot originate at the same place. Next to impossible especially 4000 or 5000 years ago!! Only one should be indigenous other must be an outsider!!
@@log4john No, language is a continuous change. In India a hundred miles will give you different dialects of the same language as well as very different languages. So what does the same place mean even? The same is true all across the world. Language is extremely fluid and changes are subtle and drastic. Most linguistic theories are not provable. Even your statement flies in the face of what we see in reality. It is more an assertion than a fact. 4000 years ago a 100 miles would have mean a large distance compared to today. 50 miles is nearly a days walk at 5 miles an hour. Unless we believe in miracles, languages would have commonalities mostly by interaction. If vocabularies evolved via interaction more than individual linguistic development that would answer all your questions. Languages do not start off having a million words in them. I am not claiming what you are objecting to.
@@log4johnChina isn't that big actually historically. At present they are but that doesn't mean most of the places that are called China now were not China even 300 years back. So if we look back more we'll not see big China like at present
@@ut2104 The fact that you are making such a statement tells me you did not understand what I said or claimed. Do you know the average height of these mountains? They are well over 14000 feet. Do you realize what it would take to cross them? Itht ah not like they had the ability to fly and find a path through. Any migration would have taken time and the numbers could not have been significant. One needs to quantify how many came. If a 100 came then that would not explain anything. The relative population distribution matters. The Gangetic plains were the most populous for all time known. Think about this, they put the Mohenjodaro to be a city of size 40k people. That is a lot for those times. The average sizes of cities would have at best been a few thousand or maybe 10-20k. If they did come why? It is unlikely that they would have come in as a planned conquest. If they came to trade or other economic reasons, it is likely that they were incentivised to learn the language of the natives and not the other way. The modern post colonization studies posit that colonization has been going on forever in human history. That is the origin of these theories. They may not be and it is unlikely that it was. The colonization happened because of better ships and navigation of the seas. Large armies could be transported across the seas. None of these theories pass the basic simple smell test and basic human behavior and human necessities.
My feeling after following this topic for many years is in line with broad conclusions drawn from this analysis. India of the past would have been much like the India of today, diverse and united. Many languages and cultural practices but broadly the same people.
The Prakrit argument makes increasingly more sense and Vedic Sanskrit may just have been one of the many IE dialects. Many Prakritists have been making this argument out of antipathy towards Sanskrit and the perception of dichotomy between the Vedic and Sramanic traditions but it may be the truth after all.
Aryan Invasion Theory could be easily dismissed with a simple fact that Invasion across Hindu Kush mountains on horseback in an around 1500 BC was next to impossible. Cause, during those time horses were the size of Mules or donkeys. & simple ligic nobody could fight a war on a donkey's back.🤣🤣
Y-DNA is missing in this analysis which by timing seems to not go as well with an early CHG/IrN expansion Hypothesis, so paternal line dominance would seem to be very different from main admixture and language at least for the prehistorical time?
A language doesn't evolve like a biological species and doesn't spread like viruses. The linguist argues that the origin and spread of language should be examined primarily time tested linguistic analysis rather than those of evolutionary biology
Y Dna isn't missing. U just haven't paid closer attention. 3 papers have confirmed this. Underhill was one to point it first that this expansion within India happened around 3000 bce. But people didn't take it seriously. Now Chaubey and niraj rai has said that J2 L1a and R1a all three have split time of 8k yrs ago between Indian, middle east and europeans. Indus valley and IVC periphery samples were mostly J2. And if u look at spread of J2 and chg over the world it matches perfectly. Especially greek is mostly J2.
Kushalmehra... Still a skeptic about OIT... I am too. I don't research! My alibi.. But you do Could PIE have originated from our hinterland? And both didn't cover the South. His map was showing an input but did not explain where the line was coming from
The problem is with finding aDNA in the subcontinent. Unless we can find some sites from southern India or even eastern, this is how it is going to be. Only Indian aDNA we have atm is what he said, few swat valley samples in North Pakistan and one Rakhigadi female sample of poor quality. Nothing from rest of Indias aDNA profile is only speculation by tying them to what they call AASI related to the andamanese tribes that hasn't had modern contact with mainland India pop for thousands of years. AASI is simulated sample from that modern Andaman dna.
So what i get from this is that we iranians and armenians are related and oit theory is far more true than migration/invasion etc. Although one can not prove it completley but in some way oit is somewhat true. Is what i got from this video.
Some greeks and may be one or two iranian clans lived in india n also vice versa which is probably the reason for closeness between Indo iranian with greeks
@@thearjunauvach280 no dna evidence from India or even bactria to prove steppe migration. Although we do have evidence of Indians in bactria iran and crete island.
@@thearjunauvach280 see the full video he clearly states that that steppe gene is so small. And began when the greeks entered India so yes we had influx but it was small and they do not make up a significant part of our gene pool.
1:13:00 IMO the Anatolian farmers first spread Indo-Anatolian into Greece, Italy, France, England, Norway in fifth millennium BCE where they diverged into Greek, Romance, Celtic, Germanic, Baltic with farming spread. After a couple of thousand years Yamanaya came over around 2500 BCE into the populations that were already Indo European speakers speaking different languages. They assimilated into existing people speaking different languages but ended up killing lot of locals through disease (like European people going into Americas spread disease and ended up causing death to natives)
Only a 1000 Anglicans brought English! And left Anglo Indians as genetic foot print. We all learn and speak! That is just in last 300 years when we all have rich languages and literature! Tamizh literature was lost to tamils themselves! Sanskrit is no longer spoken!
1:50:00 Narasimhan is wishy washy. His paper says Steppe people may have come through BMAC or may be they could have come through Caucasus, we don’t know. They find Steppe in Swat valley in first millennium BCE.
Ydna is a much more reliable source than atdna when it comes to deep ancestry since it can only be affected by random mutation and it is not dependent on reference populations handpicked by experts biased by preexisting historical models. Also, the greatest variability in p, q and r occurs in south asia, where the largest population in the world with the greatest selection pressure existed.
This is not looking only at DNA. It is looking at a variety of biological and archaeological signals. Therefore, it is a much more comprehensive hypothesis than single factor assessment such as Y-DNA or atDNA. And he even uses non-human DNA markers to make the case much stronger than relying on very small n's to create a genomic map. It would be like me taking degraded modern yDNA of a thousand Caucasians and building a genetic map of humanity today from that.
@@AmeyaVaidyaExEcutESC2 and the dna of mice, cattle and even the stomach bugs of otzi all suggest a significamt migration from south asia despite the cattle rearing "aryans" coming to India without leaving a single trace of their foreign pests diseases or livestock
48:00 modern forces are vastly different (TV, movies, civil service jobs in colonial rule, science education in a certain language) and using them as examples for ancient processes will lead to faulty conclusions.
Tell me you know nothing about this subject without telling me. David Anthony is an archaeologist and not a geneticist. His theory is a continuation of the theory made by Marija Gimbutas in 1950s who in turn worked on the theory of Gordon Childe. Thus their steppe theories are almost a 100 years old while genetic evidence has only come in the last decade. Was the steppe theory invalid for all those decades when there was no genetic data ? They still peddled it. Didn’t they ? So Indians also have the right to work on their own theory and you are no one to deny the truth or falsehood of a theory. Having said so, if you watched the whole video you would have also learnt that genetic data is not really proving the case for the steppe theory. They are discussing a lot of new data, including genetic data, which contradicts the steppe theory. Similarly, there is no direct evidence that the Indo-European languages were ever spoken on the steppe before 900 BCE. All we have from Anthony and others are mere conjectures. There is no solid proof of IE languages on the steppe either in 4000 BC or in 3000 BC or in 2000 BC or even in 1500 BC. Nor is there any evidence of any steppe cultural marker in the archaeological record of India. So if steppe people mixed in India without bringing their culture but got absorbed in our culture, what does that mean ? It could only mean that the language and religion of the people who lived here did not change when some steppe people got mixed with the Indians.
About the one-sided Uralic borrowings from Indo-Iranian, when we find a set of common words in two different language families, how do we know which family was the borrower and which the lender? Could KARTIK, Kushal or any one else please explain?
Only certain sects of brams eat fish etc because they had special permissions since they were traveling far n wide for propagation of vedic knowledge. Those brams are saraswat brams.
@@Aloolelomausi white nationalist forum made by a slav man David weslowski, who is a Australian , he hates indians believes in Aryan invasion, believes indians are inferior , he refutes all criticism , very biased
So basically this happened: indo-iranian cultural complex existed since paleolithic age. Then from the boundaries of Iran, expansion took place. India has nothing to do with European expansion because India Iran didn't exist back then but we're the same stagnant genetic populations. While the indo-iranian genes expanded from the margibs
the homeland is from easten iran to himalayas .... i don't need any research coz this is the only easily accessible region at the time to grow that huge population. .. also dna shows that iran (old iran not today's iran) population and iindian population were same people b4 8000bce ......
Incredible. Masterful. Amazing. It wpule be an understatement to aay IE studies is an incredibly complex topic involving several disciplines. The manner in which your esteemed guest has distilled the most important bits and compressed a mammoth amount of information in 2 hours is simple spellbinding. Kudos and pranams 🙏🙏🙏🙏.
loved this, no one is doing analysis this deep on this platform in india when i will have something monetary going on i will for sure support kushal in any way possible rn I am student(18), so can't help much
The problem with all these dates is that they’re made to fit within a paradigm of civilization that doesn’t include the Tepes in Anatolia that push organized society back to 10000 BCE. Also, using relatively more recent history as an example, the establishment of the British Raj was an example of an outside “tribe” imposing an administrative system without changing language or injecting their y-DNA into the population en masse. Granted, it was only 89 years, but it’s results can still be seen today: the Indian Parliament. Why does the idea of the Vedas (especially the Rig) and the caste system coming from an outside, administrative group sound so implausible?
@@jamesleblanc7437 The geography described shows the vedas were written in the subcontinent, i.e., didn't come from outside. The "aryans" could have originated genetically from anywhere, that's not the issue. Sanskrit and the vedas are native to the subcontinent 100% without doubt. Any theory that indicates otherwise is wrong a priori.
I am really amazed that there has literally been a complete silence from the usual suspects (Russian homeland, etc. etc.) on these findings. Shri. Shrikant Talageri has commented on the paper quite extensively on his blog. Request Kushal to bring him back on the podcast as well as the usual suspects to discuss the findings from this paper. From my point of view, I am speculating a combination of climatic change over a prolonged period (drought, etc.), with a final cataclysm (eg. the Thera volcanic eruption) appear to have led to the collapse of a number of bronze age civilizations around 1500 B.C. and the dispersal of people from the steppes. As is observed in history, in such conditions women, children and the elderly suffer the most as well as people with lesser means. This may explain why the genetic evidence indicates a predominantly male migration.
Very informative episode. Thanks Kushal, but it was too long. Our temples in North America should start investing in schools and colleges in major population centers such as NJ, Atlanta, Bay Area. Our academics need it, our kids need it. Please discuss it with Sham Sharma in one of your shows.
Khuashal is the type of guy that likes to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. he always picks bizzare stands. I get exhausted listening him bring up the same nonsense for the 50th time. The majority of india, many philosophers, scientists including physicists: out of india is the true origin of all indo-european knowledge, including languages. Kushal: nah, i disagree. indian knowledge came from outside of india. The majority of india: castism was in the past and its time to move on. Kushal: Nah, he needs to bring it up every chance he gets.
Are you not aware of all the research papers? Theres been studies done by all sort of people. Priya morjhani narsimhan shinde niraj rai chaubey etc. And some studies r done by Underhill and other guy from france or somewhere in Europe. They r all available on nature and academia.
The Caucasus Mountains and its native peoples aren't nor have ever been a part of the ethnolingusitic or genetic make-up of so called "Indo-Iranians". Old Colchians, Iberians (Georgians), and Albanians (Lezgins, Udi). Ethnic Caucasians are a distinct civilization and geo-political region. The furthest North so called "Indo-Iranians" would have ever settled is south of the Araxes river, but even there the genetic make-up of the people on the South Caspian Sea region in modern Iran are very distinct from the rest of the country. Ethnic Caucasians are set apart both in terms of linguistic origins, writing system, folk singing, folk dancing, and pre-Abrahamic religious traditions. Just as Caucasians are not a part of Anglo-Germanic ethnolinguistic/genetic origins. The so called "Iranians" and Turks are and have always been historic enemies of this region and were never accepted - this is why Georgians brought Russians into the Caucasus. Real Caucasians are a preserved civilization prior to "Indo-European" language spread, just as Armenians, Alans and later Turks are migrants to the region. The earliest ethnographers like Xenophon describe Georgians tribes as they are today in the Black Sea / Caucasus Mountains culturally distinct in language, dancing, singing, and battle. Completely set-apart from Armenians, Greeks, and Persians - this is documented 2,500 years ago and every primary source ethnographer from beginning of recorded history knows this and wrote this.
Also sham and kushal were clueless about TN people and Sanatan And Stalin's rants.. Missed the Iyer here... This is the weaponizing of AIT as the common cold that transformed as cancer.
Hes not debating. He is presenting works of others. Razib hasn't done any large scale work directly on this. All the ancient dna of India is with beerbal sahni lab /neeraj rai.
@@boiled_fish_with_rice can't disagree with that. He said nasty thing about Indians that we r illegitimate or haramzadas who were born out of rape of Dravidian women.
Excellent one. Karthik has put in phenomenal efforts to present in visuals.
This is an an absolute must watch - yes, invest the time. Wonderful that it will remain online as an educational experience even for those of us who are quite familiar with the multiple shreddings of the Aryan Invasion hypothesis. This is one for watching, downloading and bookmarking for regular and ready reference.
Kratiks father animated 'Ramayana : Legend of the prince Ram ' if anybody don't know...
Ram Mohan
Wow this was explained in such an easy manner! Didn't get the whole of it but my understanding has increased many folds!
Thanks :)
Kushal and Karthik, thanks for the presentation.😊
51:00 IMO it doesn’t have to be only one tracer dye throughout the vast geographic area. For example one transition could happen in 6000 BCE into Anatolia that could be identified using tracer dye A in aDNA of the time carrying language A. From there a second migration occurs in 5000 BCE. At that time the tracer dye B could be different and they might carry language A which they learned.
May be original people in Anatolia were concurred by incoming people with tracer dye A, then concurred people started speaking new language A and were kicked out. Now they carry the language A but have a different tracer sue B.
Great discussion. Need to listen to it a few times to grasp it properly.
Presentation was amazing.
1:24:00 IMO these Bronze Age kingdoms that are falling have currently arid areas, but when they were kingdoms were thriving with some leftover effect of high humidity continuing even after 4.2k event. The kingdoms would not have prospered where they did with aridity seen today.
The same increase In aridity may have caused havoc in Steppe causing Yamnaya to go scatter to ALL directions, and got absorbed into local populations already speaking various Indo European languages.
This is really eye opening!!
This is much better than steppe hypothesis.
The Haggerty Report largely supports my own views since long ago regarding the Steppe Hypothesis with its general character of oversimplification.
Good presentation and relevant comments!
Superb presentation - really questioning the Steppe hypothesis at this point. Another major problem with Kurgan hypothesis in an Indo Aryan / Indian context is that the Mittani are attested as early as 1761 BC in Tell Leilan. They bear later Vedic language, with words like pingala and prefixes/suffixes like brhad, sapta, uru, ksatra etc. There's elephant and peacock iconography and items associated with them as well which marks them as Indian rather than Andronovo in origin. Asiatic elephant remains in the near East are all post 1800 BC which lines up with this. Mittanis speak later RV-derived Sanskrit, so they were most certainly residents of India.
There's no Andronovo material culture in India in contrast. So, either Sintashta/Andronovo is too late to be a source, and assuming Steppe, puts it back further to Fatayanavo as a source. Or we indeed need to consider an alternative hypothesis like Heggarty et al. Steppe admixture in Indians has a mean date range of 1000-500 BC as per Dates analysis by Narasimhan et al. Swat samples have female mediated steppe ancestry.
Dhanyawad, Mr. Kartik Mohan for enlightening us about our origins without any biases.
Fantastic!
Thank you
I have to take a bone with the analysis here. Everyone tries to come up with this insane notion that there is some pure version of either IE speaking or Dravidian speaking population that was the IVC. Such things do not happen in hard science. Just looking at the the linguistic based Monte Carlo simulations of these mathematical models, it does not indicate such purity. Clearly these arguments show clearly how weak Kushal is in some areas. IVC was probably a blend of Dravidian and IE speakers.
The thing that is missed is the population sizes. What are we claiming here? Are we stating that these migrations were 1000s of people, 100000s of people, millions of people. What was the proportion of the migrant population vs the population that was already there. Typically through out history the Indus and the Gangetic valleys have been the largest populations in the world. Think about this the so called Mohenjodaro Harrappan cities were 40000 people and this was the largest city. Any migrant population would have been a fraction of this size. Without a population dynamics and migration model of populations just a pure linguistic and genetic model is inadequate in trying to explain the origins.
Do people take into account the terrian that they have to navigate to come to India? It is not easy. What was their logistics? Over what period of time? What this entire Western effort to find the origins of IE languages and trying to come up with central asian, Anatolian etc. theories is nonsense and does not pass the basic smell test. We just do not have a good consistent explanation.
These folks just read papers and do not apply their minds. The Aryan Invasion Theory or any kind of Migration-Replacement theory does not pass the basic smell test. It is very unlikely that the immigrant population was so advanced in their weaponry that they were able to just dominate the local populations and spread their language and culture. The only way one can explain the spread of the IE languages is the Out of India theory. We need to understand the direction of movements. It may not have been migration at all. It may have been a constant back and forth and given that they were here to trade perhaps with the Indus populations they had to learn the language of the more prosperous. Like we learn English today. The main reason folks learn a new langauge is opportunity.
Why is it that there is no effort from the Indian side to theorize? We need white Europeans to tell us their racist theories?
Two linguistic groups distinctive to each other cannot originate at the same place. Next to impossible especially 4000 or 5000 years ago!! Only one should be indigenous other must be an outsider!!
@@log4john No, language is a continuous change. In India a hundred miles will give you different dialects of the same language as well as very different languages. So what does the same place mean even? The same is true all across the world. Language is extremely fluid and changes are subtle and drastic.
Most linguistic theories are not provable. Even your statement flies in the face of what we see in reality. It is more an assertion than a fact.
4000 years ago a 100 miles would have mean a large distance compared to today. 50 miles is nearly a days walk at 5 miles an hour. Unless we believe in miracles, languages would have commonalities mostly by interaction. If vocabularies evolved via interaction more than individual linguistic development that would answer all your questions.
Languages do not start off having a million words in them.
I am not claiming what you are objecting to.
@@MrRk540 Two language families cannot start at the same region!! Take China such a large area, but a single language family.
@@log4johnChina isn't that big actually historically. At present they are but that doesn't mean most of the places that are called China now were not China even 300 years back. So if we look back more we'll not see big China like at present
@@ut2104 The fact that you are making such a statement tells me you did not understand what I said or claimed. Do you know the average height of these mountains? They are well over 14000 feet. Do you realize what it would take to cross them? Itht ah not like they had the ability to fly and find a path through. Any migration would have taken time and the numbers could not have been significant. One needs to quantify how many came. If a 100 came then that would not explain anything. The relative population distribution matters. The Gangetic plains were the most populous for all time known. Think about this, they put the Mohenjodaro to be a city of size 40k people. That is a lot for those times. The average sizes of cities would have at best been a few thousand or maybe 10-20k. If they did come why? It is unlikely that they would have come in as a planned conquest. If they came to trade or other economic reasons, it is likely that they were incentivised to learn the language of the natives and not the other way. The modern post colonization studies posit that colonization has been going on forever in human history. That is the origin of these theories. They may not be and it is unlikely that it was. The colonization happened because of better ships and navigation of the seas. Large armies could be transported across the seas.
None of these theories pass the basic simple smell test and basic human behavior and human necessities.
So Atlast Kushal made a podcast on Abhijith's Ancestral Lands.
This was too good
My feeling after following this topic for many years is in line with broad conclusions drawn from this analysis. India of the past would have been much like the India of today, diverse and united. Many languages and cultural practices but broadly the same people.
The Prakrit argument makes increasingly more sense and Vedic Sanskrit may just have been one of the many IE dialects. Many Prakritists have been making this argument out of antipathy towards Sanskrit and the perception of dichotomy between the Vedic and Sramanic traditions but it may be the truth after all.
45:00 Mr. Talageri talks about languages going out in Bronze Age, though. Hegarty model shows languages diverging much earlier around 6000 BCE
awesome presentation!
1:45:00 other explanation could be those genotypes in northern regions don’t live in tropical zone
Aryan Invasion Theory could be easily dismissed with a simple fact that Invasion across Hindu Kush mountains on horseback in an around 1500 BC was next to impossible.
Cause, during those time horses were the size of Mules or donkeys.
& simple ligic nobody could fight a war on a donkey's back.🤣🤣
By the same logic Ramayana and Mahabharata also could be discarded as they are claimed to be 7000bce and 5000bce
@@gagadonim3354 Classic Strawman argument.
@@gagadonim3354don't recall horses being used in any battle in ramayan 😂
Vah Maza Aagya dhanyavad
Y-DNA is missing in this analysis which by timing seems to not go as well with an early CHG/IrN expansion Hypothesis, so paternal line dominance would seem to be very different from main admixture and language at least for the prehistorical time?
A language doesn't evolve like a biological species and doesn't spread like viruses. The linguist argues that the origin and spread of language should be examined primarily time tested linguistic analysis rather than those of evolutionary biology
Y Dna isn't missing. U just haven't paid closer attention. 3 papers have confirmed this. Underhill was one to point it first that this expansion within India happened around 3000 bce. But people didn't take it seriously. Now Chaubey and niraj rai has said that J2 L1a and R1a all three have split time of 8k yrs ago between Indian, middle east and europeans. Indus valley and IVC periphery samples were mostly J2. And if u look at spread of J2 and chg over the world it matches perfectly. Especially greek is mostly J2.
Kushalmehra... Still a skeptic about OIT... I am too. I don't research! My alibi.. But you do
Could PIE have originated from our hinterland? And both didn't cover the South. His map was showing an input but did not explain where the line was coming from
you are skeptic about oit because indians believe it... if westerns start saying oit is true, then you will believe it.
The problem is with finding aDNA in the subcontinent. Unless we can find some sites from southern India or even eastern, this is how it is going to be. Only Indian aDNA we have atm is what he said, few swat valley samples in North Pakistan and one Rakhigadi female sample of poor quality. Nothing from rest of Indias aDNA profile is only speculation by tying them to what they call AASI related to the andamanese tribes that hasn't had modern contact with mainland India pop for thousands of years. AASI is simulated sample from that modern Andaman dna.
1:19:30 onwards for a few seconds = Hammer blow indeed!
So what i get from this is that we iranians and armenians are related and oit theory is far more true than migration/invasion etc. Although one can not prove it completley but in some way oit is somewhat true. Is what i got from this video.
Some greeks and may be one or two iranian clans lived in india n also vice versa which is probably the reason for closeness between Indo iranian with greeks
OIT pertains to the time of the fall of IVC - the Steppe folks did indeed enter the area then. To me the revelation is that the Steppe folks were us!
@@thearjunauvach280 no dna evidence from India or even bactria to prove steppe migration. Although we do have evidence of Indians in bactria iran and crete island.
@@thearjunauvach280 see the full video he clearly states that that steppe gene is so small. And began when the greeks entered India so yes we had influx but it was small and they do not make up a significant part of our gene pool.
David Reich settled the question in 2020.
read the latest paper by Lazaridis Aswell
1:13:00 IMO the Anatolian farmers first spread Indo-Anatolian into Greece, Italy, France, England, Norway in fifth millennium BCE where they diverged into Greek, Romance, Celtic, Germanic, Baltic with farming spread. After a couple of thousand years Yamanaya came over around 2500 BCE into the populations that were already Indo European speakers speaking different languages. They assimilated into existing people speaking different languages but ended up killing lot of locals through disease (like European people going into Americas spread disease and ended up causing death to natives)
You have to bring razib on for a debate/ opposite view on this. His has a more traditional view on this topic.
Only a 1000 Anglicans brought English! And left Anglo Indians as genetic foot print. We all learn and speak! That is just in last 300 years when we all have rich languages and literature! Tamizh literature was lost to tamils themselves! Sanskrit is no longer spoken!
dhanyavad
1:14:00 I think Uralic influence comes through Yamanaya being half Indo Iranian and carrying it into aural mountains
Can we get the data for the bayesian analysis by copernicus institute of sustainable development on population?? Or atleast get the data source?
1:50:00 Narasimhan is wishy washy. His paper says Steppe people may have come through BMAC or may be they could have come through Caucasus, we don’t know. They find Steppe in Swat valley in first millennium BCE.
Ydna is a much more reliable source than atdna when it comes to deep ancestry since it can only be affected by random mutation and it is not dependent on reference populations handpicked by experts biased by preexisting historical models. Also, the greatest variability in p, q and r occurs in south asia, where the largest population in the world with the greatest selection pressure existed.
This is not looking only at DNA. It is looking at a variety of biological and archaeological signals. Therefore, it is a much more comprehensive hypothesis than single factor assessment such as Y-DNA or atDNA. And he even uses non-human DNA markers to make the case much stronger than relying on very small n's to create a genomic map. It would be like me taking degraded modern yDNA of a thousand Caucasians and building a genetic map of humanity today from that.
@@AmeyaVaidyaExEcutESC2 and the dna of mice, cattle and even the stomach bugs of otzi all suggest a significamt migration from south asia despite the cattle rearing "aryans" coming to India without leaving a single trace of their foreign pests diseases or livestock
With Y dna it still comes back to same result.
48:00 modern forces are vastly different (TV, movies, civil service jobs in colonial rule, science education in a certain language) and using them as examples for ancient processes will lead to faulty conclusions.
David Anthony's theory is based on genetic evidence. I will not give any importance to any non scientific theory as in this vlog.
Tell me you know nothing about this subject without telling me.
David Anthony is an archaeologist and not a geneticist. His theory is a continuation of the theory made by Marija Gimbutas in 1950s who in turn worked on the theory of Gordon Childe. Thus their steppe theories are almost a 100 years old while genetic evidence has only come in the last decade.
Was the steppe theory invalid for all those decades when there was no genetic data ? They still peddled it. Didn’t they ? So Indians also have the right to work on their own theory and you are no one to deny the truth or falsehood of a theory.
Having said so, if you watched the whole video you would have also learnt that genetic data is not really proving the case for the steppe theory. They are discussing a lot of new data, including genetic data, which contradicts the steppe theory.
Similarly, there is no direct evidence that the Indo-European languages were ever spoken on the steppe before 900 BCE. All we have from Anthony and others are mere conjectures. There is no solid proof of IE languages on the steppe either in 4000 BC or in 3000 BC or in 2000 BC or even in 1500 BC. Nor is there any evidence of any steppe cultural marker in the archaeological record of India. So if steppe people mixed in India without bringing their culture but got absorbed in our culture, what does that mean ? It could only mean that the language and religion of the people who lived here did not change when some steppe people got mixed with the Indians.
Genetic evidence is that yamnaya invaders of Europe came from iran or even possibly from india.
Atleast read the genetic papers fool 🤣
About the one-sided Uralic borrowings from Indo-Iranian, when we find a set of common words in two different language families, how do we know which family was the borrower and which the lender? Could KARTIK, Kushal or any one else please explain?
Because the words are Indo Iranian in uralic. Simple. Such as Arya. Arya isn't uralic so who borrowed the word is clear.
Vedic aryans were fish eating Brahmins who lived along saraswati river and migrated out as saraswati dried up and in India are called saraswats
Only certain sects of brams eat fish etc because they had special permissions since they were traveling far n wide for propagation of vedic knowledge. Those brams are saraswat brams.
They ate beef.
@@TheM41a in vedas it's prohibited to kill cows. You people learn hinduism from white supremacists
Kushal what's your username in Eurogenes?
What’s eurogrnes ?
@@Aloolelomausi white nationalist forum made by a slav man David weslowski, who is a Australian , he hates indians believes in Aryan invasion, believes indians are inferior , he refutes all criticism , very biased
So basically this happened: indo-iranian cultural complex existed since paleolithic age.
Then from the boundaries of Iran, expansion took place. India has nothing to do with European expansion because India Iran didn't exist back then but we're the same stagnant genetic populations. While the indo-iranian genes expanded from the margibs
What happened is "people travelled"....and guess what...people countinue to travel.....
the homeland is from easten iran to himalayas .... i don't need any research coz this is the only easily accessible region at the time to grow that huge population. .. also dna shows that iran (old iran not today's iran) population and iindian population were same people b4 8000bce ......
By "South Russian Homeland" they mean "Pontic-Caspian steppe Urheimat"?
What do you expect from chagani?😂
Incredible. Masterful. Amazing. It wpule be an understatement to aay IE studies is an incredibly complex topic involving several disciplines.
The manner in which your esteemed guest has distilled the most important bits and compressed a mammoth amount of information in 2 hours is simple spellbinding. Kudos and pranams 🙏🙏🙏🙏.
Super presentation…thank you
loved this, no one is doing analysis this deep on this platform in india when i will have something monetary going on i will for sure support kushal in any way possible rn I am student(18), so can't help much
The problem with all these dates is that they’re made to fit within a paradigm of civilization that doesn’t include the Tepes in Anatolia that push organized society back to 10000 BCE. Also, using relatively more recent history as an example, the establishment of the British Raj was an example of an outside “tribe” imposing an administrative system without changing language or injecting their y-DNA into the population en masse. Granted, it was only 89 years, but it’s results can still be seen today: the Indian Parliament. Why does the idea of the Vedas (especially the Rig) and the caste system coming from an outside, administrative group sound so implausible?
The main reason why is probably the vedas describe subcontinent geography so closely that any other geography is highly improbable.
The geography described is the origin of the Aryans?
@@jamesleblanc7437 The geography described shows the vedas were written in the subcontinent, i.e., didn't come from outside. The "aryans" could have originated genetically from anywhere, that's not the issue. Sanskrit and the vedas are native to the subcontinent 100% without doubt. Any theory that indicates otherwise is wrong a priori.
You haven’t proven anything, you’ve just made an assertion. Is the geography in the south so exceptional that it could be nowhere else?
I think your issue is the fact that outside Caucasians were responsible for your ancient religion and language.
Marks kahan gaye ?
My research to disprove theory is very simple . If you combine Indian+ European result is still Indian. So this Indo European is fantacy.
I am really amazed that there has literally been a complete silence from the usual suspects (Russian homeland, etc. etc.) on these findings. Shri. Shrikant Talageri has commented on the paper quite extensively on his blog. Request Kushal to bring him back on the podcast as well as the usual suspects to discuss the findings from this paper. From my point of view, I am speculating a combination of climatic change over a prolonged period (drought, etc.), with a final cataclysm (eg. the Thera volcanic eruption) appear to have led to the collapse of a number of bronze age civilizations around 1500 B.C. and the dispersal of people from the steppes. As is observed in history, in such conditions women, children and the elderly suffer the most as well as people with lesser means. This may explain why the genetic evidence indicates a predominantly male migration.
Don't think Shrikant Talageri will come back to this podcast after Kushal disparaging him on Twitter over petty reasons
@@ibati what happened between kushal and talageri on twitter? And when?
Very informative episode. Thanks Kushal, but it was too long. Our temples in North America should start investing in schools and colleges in major population centers such as NJ, Atlanta, Bay Area. Our academics need it, our kids need it. Please discuss it with Sham Sharma in one of your shows.
Khuashal is the type of guy that likes to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. he always picks bizzare stands. I get exhausted listening him bring up the same nonsense for the 50th time.
The majority of india, many philosophers, scientists including physicists: out of india is the true origin of all indo-european knowledge, including languages.
Kushal: nah, i disagree. indian knowledge came from outside of india.
The majority of india: castism was in the past and its time to move on.
Kushal: Nah, he needs to bring it up every chance he gets.
No it's not ... pajeet street shitter
Atiprabhavshali prastuti
Why did Indian government hadn't done research on the basis of community vise difference in DNA
Are you not aware of all the research papers? Theres been studies done by all sort of people. Priya morjhani narsimhan shinde niraj rai chaubey etc. And some studies r done by Underhill and other guy from france or somewhere in Europe. They r all available on nature and academia.
There were many tribes in the steppes
The aryans went to india much earlier in the south and middle of the country
The Caucasus Mountains and its native peoples aren't nor have ever been a part of the ethnolingusitic or genetic make-up of so called "Indo-Iranians". Old Colchians, Iberians (Georgians), and Albanians (Lezgins, Udi). Ethnic Caucasians are a distinct civilization and geo-political region. The furthest North so called "Indo-Iranians" would have ever settled is south of the Araxes river, but even there the genetic make-up of the people on the South Caspian Sea region in modern Iran are very distinct from the rest of the country.
Ethnic Caucasians are set apart both in terms of linguistic origins, writing system, folk singing, folk dancing, and pre-Abrahamic religious traditions. Just as Caucasians are not a part of Anglo-Germanic ethnolinguistic/genetic origins. The so called "Iranians" and Turks are and have always been historic enemies of this region and were never accepted - this is why Georgians brought Russians into the Caucasus.
Real Caucasians are a preserved civilization prior to "Indo-European" language spread, just as Armenians, Alans and later Turks are migrants to the region.
The earliest ethnographers like Xenophon describe Georgians tribes as they are today in the Black Sea / Caucasus Mountains culturally distinct in language, dancing, singing, and battle. Completely set-apart from Armenians, Greeks, and Persians - this is documented 2,500 years ago and every primary source ethnographer from beginning of recorded history knows this and wrote this.
These zagros/Iranian people had R1A* before going to steppe?.. what did they speak?. Elamite?
No ancient samples from zagrosian have been found bearing R1a*
No, they were J haplogroup
We should return to South Russia once Indian peninsula submerges in Indian ocean.
Also sham and kushal were clueless about TN people and Sanatan
And Stalin's rants.. Missed the Iyer here... This is the weaponizing of AIT as the common cold that transformed as cancer.
Where is the home land of the Chinese.
Ukraine or Europe 🤣🤣🤣
I have less Indo Aryan genes therefore I look ugly.
Indo Aryan people r good looking. Bollywood example.
The guy on thumbnail has no Aryan features. Tf?
1:43:00 great sheep data
The wheel is from mesopotamia
This doesn't make sense given our itihasa. Why discuss Western narratives? Isn't linguistic palaeontology a pseudoscience?
Ok, the refutations come later. All these Western hypotheses are silly, given what we have in our historical records!
Kala Kushal to Russian nikla, ab isko 6000 Dene pdenge😂😂
You can not argue with DNA and language! Follow the trail!
The huns went to india
Now get razib on to debate karthik
Yeah !
Hes not debating. He is presenting works of others. Razib hasn't done any large scale work directly on this. All the ancient dna of India is with beerbal sahni lab /neeraj rai.
@@gravewalker34 razib is white nationalist in brown skin
@@boiled_fish_with_rice can't disagree with that. He said nasty thing about Indians that we r illegitimate or haramzadas who were born out of rape of Dravidian women.
kushalmehra@icici
But still am still confused as to why as the 😢 confusion with isoglosess
Both of you indirectly agreed to ST
ST for Bharath Ratna
1:01:23
@crschan
kushalmehra@icici