this is absolutely mental, I always find myself coming to your channel for information, because "credibility" this, and "traditions" that don't mean shit to me, results speak volumes, and you make these Volvos move more efficiently than anyone else I've seen online...let me say that again, efficiently, I think that is what people need to realize about your mechanical focus. I can't say that I am going to embark on this mod yet, but eventually. cheers. -el bandito blanco (945 wagon)
Thank you for the kind words, appreciated! But for me, yes, all about the results, the bang for your buck, and making whatever spec you got run as well, as efficiently from a performance point of view like you say, as I can.
This might be one of the best mods I've ever seen on a turbo car.... so cheap and easy to implement as well. Everyone's going to start doing this now 🤣
Tbh I'm shocked you don't have more subs and views. You certainly deserve it and amazing info. And my fave subject too. Fast shitboxes that make you smile. Keep it up!
Creators who put out under-produced, "raw" videos like these are the future. There's no filler. Intro sequences, time lapses, music montages, "off topic vlogging" about the creators personal life while driving to the tuner or exhaust shop or whatever... it's all crap put in there to inflate videos to hit the 10 minute mark, increase ad revenue. Can see it from a mile away, I avoid those creators like the plague.
@@StavTech you will do well with TH-cam. Without a doubt. Only thing I will mention is the TH-cam bots down play videos with swearing. If you keep it clean it'll do better by the algorithm. Also selling titles like 'ebay turbo' or even a cheeky 'boosted Bois gt3582 ebay turbo review' 😜😜
Gotta love yt's algorithm This anti-lag system has always made me wonder why it's so rare to see, as it seems like the gentlest way to prevent turbo spool down (ig the subaru rocket is gentlest, but too impractical) I'd love to see a turbo with a turbine speed output with one of these, to truly see the change it can have. (And, a throttle body isn't ideal for this, it works obv, but you'll see the umbrella looking ones more as it's optimal for airflow when open)
As long as this throttle is oversized enough that it doesnt restrict airflow, its close to ideal. I think those umbrella looking throttle bodies help more because they can twist the air in the direction the turbo will spin. Shouldnt make a big difference
Can also ditch the BOV for improved response. We've tested it on track with the turbo turbine speed logged with and W/O the BOV. shaft speed stayed higher between shifts WITHOUT a BOV. You don't need them... just noise makers. Grandnationals didn't' have them from the factory and guys would roll around with 140-160k on them easy... no turbo explosions or issues. I don't run them on anything anymore.
blow off valve is mainly effective in high pressure big turbo large engine aplication big drag race engines its not to make more power but to save on turbo wear it has none power boost what so ever on any engine
@@tomweuts That's the entire idea behind this antilag. Lower resistance on the compressor side allows it to spin up faster (and maintain those speeds between shifts). As for BOV, you'd still want one to help keep the spool. I can only imagine how great this would be if there was an ecu controlling open/close and the BOV open/close. Blowing off right before the turbo throttle closes and right after the main closes so no air makes it back to the compressor to slow it down.
If you want an easy and cheap tuning option instead of buying chips to swap, the OEM gen 3 LS stuff is worth a look (2000-2007). If I can run a motorcycle engine with it, you can run this thing. There are 2, 3, and 4 bar MAP sensor options. Crank sensor/trigger wheel is hardest part. You have manual trans, so no hassle there.
If you install a small spring around the secondary throttle cable at the pull end to add a slight pressure to the main throttle then both throttles can seat properly without touchy cable adjustments. You could downsize the main throttle spring slightly too if footwork is still annoying. A drawing would probably be easier but TH-cam isn't there yet. Very interesting project.
Great job man, keep up with the videos, love them. I was sure that the double throttle body gonna work as you guessed because back in the eighties when I turbocharged my first car wich was carburetted I made it suck through and I had massive white smoke every gear change. So figured out to put a second throttle body after the turbo and it worked. The only thing that I had to do to modify the throttle mechanism so the before turbo throttle opens a tiny bit earlier when you hit the accelerator and the opposite when you release it. You made my good old memories come back. Thank you for it. Good luck with the mx5 project as well. Waiting for your next video :)
My first car I ever built up seriously was a 1974 Volvo 242GT 2.0L Mechanical fuel injection. I got the Volvo already caged, with big disk brakes, and coilover suspension mods in 1985. I rebuilt thrashed and killed the engine twice before I gave up and put in a GM small block 305 NA 9000 Rpm motor. and it lasted for years. Not because it was superior in quality to the Volvo, its just that I was too green to see what could be dependably gotten out of a red block Volvo on boost...And the Chevu V8 gave more then i needed so it was seldom pushed too hard, and never redlined..I was leaning on those volvos HARD too! P.s all my engine machining info was from Smokey Yunick! Sadly I had no access to EU performance info back then. later I worked at a speed shop, machining, and learned! When money isnt a huge issue, big things can come in small packages.
It's the same principle as when you block off the vacuum cleaner with your hand and the motor revs up. Doing like this keeps the turbo spooled up for longer when you let of the gas. Fun to see you testing it out! I wonder if it complicates tuning or comes with other side effects.
Neat! Looks like those other F1 engines also use a swirl throttle too, throttles like those have multiple vanes that guide the air to the compressor section for a reduction in pumping losses and increase in efficiency with the added benefit of turbo anti lag , some ww2 engines also used swirl throttles to gain more efficiency especially in cases where the engine was limited by the amount of boost it could take at certain altitudes.
Yeah current F1 and some 80s F1 used swirl throttles, as do a lot of modern air compressors. It’s defo the most efficient way to do it. I’d do it for sure if there was any availabile at a sensible price but I’ve yet to find any
Swirl throttles on the compressor inlet were initially used on WWII aero engines, obviously for the most part they were feeding superchargers rather than turbos but the advantage of a swirl throttle over the conventional blade type was significant... obviously not in facilitating spool but supercharger efficiency was far better at part throttle cruising. In that case I think it was more to reduce complexity by having a single throttle, but of course when F1 engineers were looking to make their pre-turbo throttles they drew on that knowledge. If you could get your hands on one it would be an interesting test to see how much difference it makes. Of course the benefits of having a pre-turbo throttle are pretty obvious as you’ve shown!
@@StavTech Yeah I can’t really think of any off the shelf examples unfortunately, everything ‘car sized’ I’ve ever seen has been custom. Maybe one day!
@@StavTech or you can make a DPV style valve out of a big turbo's variable geometry vane system. I've seen one off a T16 and it looks exactly like a vnt on the inside.
@@AxelP33 yes they are like a VNT. But making one out of a VNT would not be easy. In fact bloody hard. As well as finding a big enough VNT for it to work on anything big. Better off just using a VNT turbo in the normal way lol
Absolutely awesome. "Old School" and still quite relevant. The only possible data collection option would be with a turbine speed sensor and do runs without the 102mm and with. See how the average RPM over the runs changes. Of course it's expensive.
Cool vid very interesting. Trust Mike to have some mega old school throttle cables I bet he knew exactly where they were as well with his stock list in his head .
That, for one sounded fantastic but two it was functional an worked so well. But your so right in what you say man about taking inspiration from race cars, race teams do a lot of crazy off the wall things (a lot like you 😉) that you wouldn't really think of. Iean look how Toyota found away around the restrictors in the Wrc all those years back that was pure genius 😂
@@craigpearson9063 oh yeah I remember that for storing boost wasn't it? I think it was the the focus that was the era of true creativity amongst rally teams I think
100% will, you can see on the on-off throttle testing the difference is massive if you watch how unresponsive it is even between gears on previous video
bloody amaizing that was ! bloody brilliant !! absolutely love your vids , best tunning channel by far for me ,...totally real and everything you do are things i would do myself 😉😉😉😎😎😎
Well, I've deffo learnt something today by seeing this. First thing I thought of was issues with compressor surge, but tbh I don't know that much about turbos. Great informative video, got a sub from me.
Dude your channels absolute class. Been a fan of ya work for years. Really really enjoyed this episode and am gonna do this to my freshly built 2.2l 5sgte next wk. Love how ya keep it real no non sense just good stuff. Your the fuckin man Stav. Chris ☺
How much oil is dragged out of the turbo bearing depends on the vacuum the turbo is working in. If your system is to work, the compressor needs to spin in a vacuum, which is going to suck out the oil. How much, is dependent on what level of vacuum the two different throttle blades close. You can, perhaps, find a sweet spot, by leaving the pre-turbo throttle just a crack open, thus lowering the pressure the compressor wheel turns in, but not going too far to suck all the oil out.
That’s why I used a larger than needed pre-turbo one. So even though they open at basically same rate, it’s effectively meaning way more airflow goes though the pre turbo one at any given time. And with them both fully closed that’s fine for this to work. It’s all well documented with race teams etc decades ago, I’m doing nothing new, just copying what they did that worked
If you are using both throttle bodies it won't be in a vacuum unless the air side throttle closes earlier. There will be vacuum behind that throttle but pressure on the back side of the turbo.
It'd be perfect if you could find a small-diameter variable inlet vane (VIV) damper instead of the butterfly valve throttle body. They're used in HVAC systems to throttle back intake airflow, while pre-spinning the air in the same direction of rotation as the fan/blower, which significantly reduces the horsepower required to turn the fan compared to regular louvred dampers or a butterfly valve. As the name implies, they use actuators to vary the pitch of the inlet vanes, which controls the volume of airflow into the system. That's essentially the same technology used by Renault in their early F1 turbo engines to mitigate turbo lag, as well as the "swirl throttle" that some WWII Russian airplanes used to control intake airflow into their superchargers while keeping the butterfly throttle valve open, which eliminated pumping losses and allowed them to make far more power at low altitudes.
Edit: After the tune I could hear the difference, that's incredible! I take back everything!!! To be completely honest, running a large blow off valve completes the same task, and I heard compressor surge, which can only occur when the build up of pressure in charge-piping flutters back on the compressor.
Nah, compressor surge happens when flow is restricted significantly vs RPM/pitch speed, to the point the blades start to aerodynamically stall, unloading them. Happens with boost, as you need a flow restriction to build pressure, but the throttle body first will also restrict flow (but at a low pressure) while closed.
Seriously, if I ever won the lottery or just stopped being poor, first buy would be an engine Dyno so I can try, and prove, all the things I’ve wanted to know!
That’s a good point! I wonder if that will work, or will the fuel will struggle to pass the 2nd throttle at idle? I’d like to find out as that would defo solve the need for a carbon seal on the turbo
@@StavTech I think as long as both throttles flowed near the same it would idle fine, most draw through set ups burn mostly fuel vapors when idling and at low throttle input, this is great info to have
@@StavTech another idea I had from this was using a waste-gate actuator for the secondary throttle, have it set at 10-25% open at all times to allow enough airflow to idle and drive but let it open at a set boost pressure
this is actually quite common with superchargers, I wonder why there isn't many production cars with throttlebody before turbocharger like this? anyways great content, I love it when I randomly find channels like this :)
I read in the original patent on the linkage set up the main throttle is restricted limited to closing only half way while the second turbo swirl throttle flap is nearly fully closed while off throttle , this then creates the effect the pull on the turbo making it spin faster as it gets the full force of the inlet plenum being in vacuum and by being restricted from the flap/vanes in front of the turbo , you would have to experiment with that theory to see if its true and makes a difference.
You should place a pressure gauge on the compressor outlet. This would help you determine the pressure differential across the oil seal. Also I still think a standalone ecu would be the way to go. The car would give so much more. And yes I could download a calibration faster than you could change those eproms
Done that in the next vid. With the tune currently being fine a different ecu won’t help performance really. And yes uploading a new map of fast. Wiring in a new ecu, and mapping it from scratch, is not
i can see how it works effectively spinning the compressor side in a vacuum between shifts would be cool to see a compressor wheel senor before and after see how the turbo speed degrades slower by how much
Excellent info in there, really interesting to see and hear the results. What sort of rwhp do you think that's pushing on the butt dyno? Seems to be pretty torquey too, can hear it trying to spin up!
I have no idea to be fair. On the old smaller turbo it was 60mph to 100mph in 5.4sec which is same as a V10 twin turbo Audi RS6, so it’s certainly pretty nippy. Thing is I’ve no idea how heavy it is
Interesting experiment with that 2nd TB! About that wideband: Is it one of those that needs calibration? Maybe you can try that? About EZK rev limit: pushing it up only has true benefit when you are using a cam that supports those higher revs (like a K- or H-cam), stonger valve springs would be useful as well. Doing it while using a stock T-cam would be pointless IMO. About that 2nd TB: in a stock car Volvo is already doing something similar, they use a CBV (compressor bypass valve) which basically short circuits the boosted side of the compressor back to the unboosted side. This prevents compressor stall and avoids the compressor from having to speed back up from low rpm. But that 2nd throttle valve creating vacume inside the compressor side is offcourse even better. I like it!
Interesting stuff! You can clearly see the difference in lag between your test drives videos. Are you still considering the supercharger turbo conversion?
Yes it’s massive. I mean it’s one thing to feel it’s massive but to even see it on a video says a lot. You know, this is so effective, for simplicity sake I’m probably not for now. But I can’t leave anything alone and like to experiment with stuff to know what’s worth doing and not, so I may still!
Loving the videos man. Great content. Is the guy who tuned the chips for u only works on volvos? If no, who is he? If only he could do that for my w210 e55. Thanks in advance for any info.
What I'm curious about is whether or not you could still get the turbo dose sound with this setup. I know diesels can't dose (they "bark" instead), but they also don't typically have a throttle plate of ANY kind, let alone one both before AND after the turbo. *EDIT:* Okay, you answered it later in the video. Sad, but damn if it eliminates in-boost lag that's huge. I wonder if you can modify the turbo to operate under vacuum and then run only the pre-turbo throttle.
I love what you've done here - Would it not help you with the boost threshhold if you indexed it to boost rather than throttle. I think on an e-throttle car you wouldn't need to, because it already gradually opens the throttle as load increases, but If you used a vacuum actuatior on the throttle, you should get better response across the board. Obviously it increases complexity though - and this does solve your lag issue.
That and Rallycross cars of the same era is where the idea came from. How was pretty easy, just piggyback off the throttle cable, when is, well, from what I’ve seen on the F1 etc engines, they’re fully open beyond about 30% throttle, which is why I went so big with the throttle, as even at 30% there’d be no restriction
Would be interesting to see how much vacuum there is pre and post compressor as that will dictate how much of an issue oil leaking into the intake will be.
This is a sweet idea! Would the original throttle spring not serve to return the blade on the new throttle body? Then you could remove both springs from the 102mm and hypothetically have the same pedal feel as the stock setup?
So, I had a 200sx on a cossie T4 with pulsar throttle body intake (reversed to fit an SR20det obv) if I had put a throttle before the turbo also, would it have improved throttle response and lag? As much as I loved the kick up the arse when it eventually spooled, less lag would have been good!
I am pretty sure the oil thing was with very old turbochargers. Any turbo deisel would create enough vacuum to cause that issue as they don't use any throttle body.
How's it going with the Volvo ? The turbski still in 1 piece ? I'm interested in doing this to the scoob.....please tell me no Sean my EJ will blow up so I don't . God bless you stav Aka the ledge 👌
Can you do an update, a quick 1-2 minute video with this setup as is in the video, then again with the pre-turbo throttle wired open? Having "before" and after in a short video would be great. Also easier to spread the news of your guru-ness :p
Lovely metal casket you've got there 😅 You got any with the combustion jet "anti-lag"? The one that gives you enough boost for your nan and her dog whatever time of day 😂 I'm guessing your setup is giving you more consistent compression, which might be allowing the engine to run richer more comfortably.
In FSAE we could only run one TB and at the time we needed to have it in front of the turbo, so we fucked a turbo or two and while we were looking for solution (hard to find decent turbos for 600cc with limited budget) they changed the rules, so that was nice. Apparently some type of seal is fine with it. You are not mapping Your car, it's more like saving a new file that a mate emailed to You into the ECU. Whatever. Thanks for the video.
The set up running a pre carb is a great way to improve both throttle and turbo response but there is an issue that when closed it will cause negative pressure this over time will cause catastrophic failure as with many racing cars back in the day which happens when the oil seal has a catastrophic failure which won't just leak a little it will all flood the turbo at pressure which may lead to breakage of fins when a large volume of liquid hits them at speed suddenly warping/bending leading to chatter and breakage also the suddon loss of oil pressure will kill the engine and could possibly blow the engine if the timing jumps out .. . This is why many race cars and rally cars switched to the modern type of antilag on turbo set ups because of this reason yes it works good but as soon as one of thosevoil seals blows out or in this case gets sucked put it will lead to multiple failures that will lead to catastrophic failure ....the oil leakage will not happen straight away it won't be a continual issue from beginning but over a period of time the negative atmospheric pressures put a strain on the oil seals in the opposite way to what the seals is designed for in normal pop's the positive pressure helps to keep the seals in place preventing the oil pressure pushing oil into the turbo if u suck the oring on one side and push with oil pressure on the other side you double the stress on the oring with it unseating the seal which is death to the engine... if you look in the 80s and 90s how often the cars on track would have engine failures these failures were because of this set up yes it gives greater responses on boost and throttle but at what cost I remember seeing the cars on track after every few races either swapping out the engines or blowing an engine after only a few races 9 out of ten timescud see oil burn from exhaust and then bang there out an oil spray all over the track and there would be an anouncement that that team is now out seem to be an oil pressure problem or an oil leak which is why it is not a good idea to run such a set up for a road car... the seals will pop when u least expect it there is usually no signs right up until they actually let loose an in that instance you don't want it on road because if your engine goes bang an u spill oil on the road your putting other people's lives at risk cos u might cause a crash when the seals suddenly let loose honestly think you need to think more when modding a car it's not just the performance you need to keep road safety in mind particularly if you are looking to run it as a daily driver or road car...
This is all covered in the video, including the solution to this. And this wasn’t why the engines had failiures back then. Well maybe some badly done draw thru turbo setups, but not the ones with the throttle pre turbo etc
Throttle response (though if you could feel that is debatable), and not creating such a big vaccum it sucks oil out the seal on the compressor side of the turbo
this is absolutely mental, I always find myself coming to your channel for information, because "credibility" this, and "traditions" that don't mean shit to me, results speak volumes, and you make these Volvos move more efficiently than anyone else I've seen online...let me say that again, efficiently, I think that is what people need to realize about your mechanical focus. I can't say that I am going to embark on this mod yet, but eventually. cheers.
-el bandito blanco (945 wagon)
Thank you for the kind words, appreciated!
But for me, yes, all about the results, the bang for your buck, and making whatever spec you got run as well, as efficiently from a performance point of view like you say, as I can.
@@StavTech i think old turbos use to leak oil under vaccum because they were journal bearing turbos
...maybe
@@StavTechwhat are the pipes thru the speaker holes in the dash
Done so
Sounds like they run to the turbo inlet unless it's just that loud in the car@@dannypitts2442
This might be one of the best mods I've ever seen on a turbo car.... so cheap and easy to implement as well. Everyone's going to start doing this now 🤣
Tbh I'm shocked you don't have more subs and views. You certainly deserve it and amazing info. And my fave subject too. Fast shitboxes that make you smile. Keep it up!
Creators who put out under-produced, "raw" videos like these are the future. There's no filler. Intro sequences, time lapses, music montages, "off topic vlogging" about the creators personal life while driving to the tuner or exhaust shop or whatever... it's all crap put in there to inflate videos to hit the 10 minute mark, increase ad revenue. Can see it from a mile away, I avoid those creators like the plague.
Bullshit sells unfortunately. I wish I had a lot more!
@@StavTech you will do well with TH-cam. Without a doubt. Only thing I will mention is the TH-cam bots down play videos with swearing. If you keep it clean it'll do better by the algorithm. Also selling titles like 'ebay turbo' or even a cheeky 'boosted Bois gt3582 ebay turbo review' 😜😜
Found him now! Epic channel
Watch the screws holding the throttle butterfly on, the sloppy mechanics community has had multiple incidences of them vibrating loose and falling out
I go loctite and final thread deformation (center punch) after hurting an engine with a blade screw vibrating out.
Loctite and pray.
@@TheInspiringKhan tack weld
Gotta love yt's algorithm
This anti-lag system has always made me wonder why it's so rare to see, as it seems like the gentlest way to prevent turbo spool down (ig the subaru rocket is gentlest, but too impractical)
I'd love to see a turbo with a turbine speed output with one of these, to truly see the change it can have. (And, a throttle body isn't ideal for this, it works obv, but you'll see the umbrella looking ones more as it's optimal for airflow when open)
Yeah this is the most basic way, far from optimal, but easiest to do.
the best anti lag system is using compressed air to spool the turbo
As long as this throttle is oversized enough that it doesnt restrict airflow, its close to ideal. I think those umbrella looking throttle bodies help more because they can twist the air in the direction the turbo will spin. Shouldnt make a big difference
@@antoniosestar3671 no it isn't. A couple companies have toyed with it but it isn't a practical solution
@@StavTech thats what we wanna see lad! you're a legend
HELL YEAH BROTHER, I GOTTA GIVE THAT A TRY ON MY TURBO FORD. THANKS FOR PUTTING THAT OUT THERE.
As always I appreciate the lessons. Good honest raw tuning videos like these are hard to find. Great videos.
I also like what I'm seeing. Doing a great job. The difference in your car is there for all to see. Keep it up.
Yeah it’s far from optimal but even as is it worked great
@@StavTech is it still alive?
Can also ditch the BOV for improved response. We've tested it on track with the turbo turbine speed logged with and W/O the BOV. shaft speed stayed higher between shifts WITHOUT a BOV. You don't need them... just noise makers. Grandnationals didn't' have them from the factory and guys would roll around with 140-160k on them easy... no turbo explosions or issues. I don't run them on anything anymore.
blow off valve is mainly effective in high pressure big turbo large engine aplication big drag race engines its not to make more power but to save on turbo wear it has none power boost what so ever on any engine
and if u placed youre throtle body infront of turbo youre turbo shaft is spin harder for longer beqause its spinning in thinner air (less resitance)
@@tomweuts That's the entire idea behind this antilag. Lower resistance on the compressor side allows it to spin up faster (and maintain those speeds between shifts).
As for BOV, you'd still want one to help keep the spool. I can only imagine how great this would be if there was an ecu controlling open/close and the BOV open/close. Blowing off right before the turbo throttle closes and right after the main closes so no air makes it back to the compressor to slow it down.
If you want an easy and cheap tuning option instead of buying chips to swap, the OEM gen 3 LS stuff is worth a look (2000-2007). If I can run a motorcycle engine with it, you can run this thing. There are 2, 3, and 4 bar MAP sensor options. Crank sensor/trigger wheel is hardest part. You have manual trans, so no hassle there.
If you install a small spring around the secondary throttle cable at the pull end to add a slight pressure to the main throttle then both throttles can seat properly without touchy cable adjustments. You could downsize the main throttle spring slightly too if footwork is still annoying. A drawing would probably be easier but TH-cam isn't there yet.
Very interesting project.
Great job man, keep up with the videos, love them. I was sure that the double throttle body gonna work as you guessed because back in the eighties when I turbocharged my first car wich was carburetted I made it suck through and I had massive white smoke every gear change. So figured out to put a second throttle body after the turbo and it worked. The only thing that I had to do to modify the throttle mechanism so the before turbo throttle opens a tiny bit earlier when you hit the accelerator and the opposite when you release it. You made my good old memories come back. Thank you for it. Good luck with the mx5 project as well. Waiting for your next video :)
My first car I ever built up seriously was a 1974 Volvo 242GT 2.0L Mechanical fuel injection. I got the Volvo already caged, with big disk brakes, and coilover suspension mods in 1985. I rebuilt thrashed and killed the engine twice before I gave up and put in a GM small block 305 NA 9000 Rpm motor. and it lasted for years. Not because it was superior in quality to the Volvo, its just that I was too green to see what could be dependably gotten out of a red block Volvo on boost...And the Chevu V8 gave more then i needed so it was seldom pushed too hard, and never redlined..I was leaning on those volvos HARD too! P.s all my engine machining info was from Smokey Yunick! Sadly I had no access to EU performance info back then. later I worked at a speed shop, machining, and learned! When money isnt a huge issue, big things can come in small packages.
True and honest feedback, thats why I love this channel!
I love it, you're willing to do new things you great man, mad love from Jamaica.
i didn’t know that trick,...and it’s something i’d like to try on my 944 turbo one day 👌🏼
Go for it what you waiting for 🤷🏽♂️😂👍🏽
It's the same principle as when you block off the vacuum cleaner with your hand and the motor revs up. Doing like this keeps the turbo spooled up for longer when you let of the gas.
Fun to see you testing it out! I wonder if it complicates tuning or comes with other side effects.
Neat! Looks like those other F1 engines also use a swirl throttle too, throttles like those have multiple vanes that guide the air to the compressor section for a reduction in pumping losses and increase in efficiency with the added benefit of turbo anti lag , some ww2 engines also used swirl throttles to gain more efficiency especially in cases where the engine was limited by the amount of boost it could take at certain altitudes.
Yeah current F1 and some 80s F1 used swirl throttles, as do a lot of modern air compressors. It’s defo the most efficient way to do it. I’d do it for sure if there was any availabile at a sensible price but I’ve yet to find any
Swirl throttles on the compressor inlet were initially used on WWII aero engines, obviously for the most part they were feeding superchargers rather than turbos but the advantage of a swirl throttle over the conventional blade type was significant... obviously not in facilitating spool but supercharger efficiency was far better at part throttle cruising. In that case I think it was more to reduce complexity by having a single throttle, but of course when F1 engineers were looking to make their pre-turbo throttles they drew on that knowledge. If you could get your hands on one it would be an interesting test to see how much difference it makes.
Of course the benefits of having a pre-turbo throttle are pretty obvious as you’ve shown!
I’d love to get hold of a swirl throttle but aside from gigantic ones from industrial air compressors I’ve got no hope of getting hold of one tbf
@@StavTech Yeah I can’t really think of any off the shelf examples unfortunately, everything ‘car sized’ I’ve ever seen has been custom. Maybe one day!
@@StavTech or you can make a DPV style valve out of a big turbo's variable geometry vane system. I've seen one off a T16 and it looks exactly like a vnt on the inside.
@@AxelP33 yes they are like a VNT. But making one out of a VNT would not be easy. In fact bloody hard. As well as finding a big enough VNT for it to work on anything big.
Better off just using a VNT turbo in the normal way lol
@@StavTech i had something much simpler in mind. ( if you have access to a lathe and a mill 🤣🤣 ) i'll shoot you a pm later on IG
Always learning something new in the Chanel, keep on going 💪🏽
Absolutely awesome. "Old School" and still quite relevant.
The only possible data collection option would be with a turbine speed sensor and do runs without the 102mm and with. See how the average RPM over the runs changes. Of course it's expensive.
Daaaammnnn, YT algoritm is crazy 😅
Btw I'm not expecting that difference. Good job 👍
Great job man. You just went for it and got it. We're cut from the same cloth. Rock on !
Thank you! I love trying stuff out, if I won the lottery I’d defo buy a dyno just to test all the millions of things that I wonder about!
Cool vid very interesting. Trust Mike to have some mega old school throttle cables I bet he knew exactly where they were as well with his stock list in his head .
That, for one sounded fantastic but two it was functional an worked so well. But your so right in what you say man about taking inspiration from race cars, race teams do a lot of crazy off the wall things (a lot like you 😉) that you wouldn't really think of. Iean look how Toyota found away around the restrictors in the Wrc all those years back that was pure genius 😂
Ford did a mgood one with the tank behind the rear bumper too that one was my fave
@@craigpearson9063 oh yeah I remember that for storing boost wasn't it? I think it was the the focus that was the era of true creativity amongst rally teams I think
You got me when you were talking about if the compression numbers are low run it who cares. I'm there with you on that. Run it and have fun with it.
This is such an interesting channel. New stuff being tested non stop.
Awesome! Love your content and knowledge shared. Be very interested to see if it does anything drifting while modulating the throttle
100% will, you can see on the on-off throttle testing the difference is massive if you watch how unresponsive it is even between gears on previous video
bloody amaizing that was ! bloody brilliant !!
absolutely love your vids , best tunning channel by far for me ,...totally real and everything you do are things i would do myself 😉😉😉😎😎😎
Thank you!
hi Stav, sent you a private messenger in fb
ta
Daniel 😉
Proper interesting video... I’ll defo do this on my truck build... OM606 L200 s300 Borg .
Great stuff, reminds me of engines using butterfly valves to help increase velocity but retain airflow! Hope to see more vids
this is very good,had to pause every picture as just so much going on
Sub'd!!
You're absolutely brilliant mate, keep doing your thing!! 💯💯💯
Thank you! 🙏
Your awesome
Thanks for posting these gold videos.
You are on point.
Thank you
Well, I've deffo learnt something today by seeing this. First thing I thought of was issues with compressor surge, but tbh I don't know that much about turbos. Great informative video, got a sub from me.
If this could spin the turbo fast enough that it had surge issues I’d be very happy with an effect that dramatic
😎👍 Nice work Stav-Tech!
Dude your channels absolute class. Been a fan of ya work for years. Really really enjoyed this episode and am gonna do this to my freshly built 2.2l 5sgte next wk. Love how ya keep it real no non sense just good stuff. Your the fuckin man Stav. Chris ☺
Thank you!
Sooooooperbe, what a great result, enjoyed the vid asalways 👌👍
How much oil is dragged out of the turbo bearing depends on the vacuum the turbo is working in. If your system is to work, the compressor needs to spin in a vacuum, which is going to suck out the oil.
How much, is dependent on what level of vacuum the two different throttle blades close. You can, perhaps, find a sweet spot, by leaving the pre-turbo throttle just a crack open, thus lowering the pressure the compressor wheel turns in, but not going too far to suck all the oil out.
That’s why I used a larger than needed pre-turbo one. So even though they open at basically same rate, it’s effectively meaning way more airflow goes though the pre turbo one at any given time.
And with them both fully closed that’s fine for this to work.
It’s all well documented with race teams etc decades ago, I’m doing nothing new, just copying what they did that worked
This is awesome! Love the turbo spool
If you are using both throttle bodies it won't be in a vacuum unless the air side throttle closes earlier. There will be vacuum behind that throttle but pressure on the back side of the turbo.
Very interesting, might have to try this on my diesel
😂
Just found channel after being subed too drift n lifts. Two great Volvo channels. Subed
cant wait to hear your verdict of this
It'd be perfect if you could find a small-diameter variable inlet vane (VIV) damper instead of the butterfly valve throttle body. They're used in HVAC systems to throttle back intake airflow, while pre-spinning the air in the same direction of rotation as the fan/blower, which significantly reduces the horsepower required to turn the fan compared to regular louvred dampers or a butterfly valve. As the name implies, they use actuators to vary the pitch of the inlet vanes, which controls the volume of airflow into the system. That's essentially the same technology used by Renault in their early F1 turbo engines to mitigate turbo lag, as well as the "swirl throttle" that some WWII Russian airplanes used to control intake airflow into their superchargers while keeping the butterfly throttle valve open, which eliminated pumping losses and allowed them to make far more power at low altitudes.
Yeah they’re common on modern air compressors too but all the ones I find that are truly controllable are huge
Edit: After the tune I could hear the difference, that's incredible! I take back everything!!!
To be completely honest, running a large blow off valve completes the same task, and I heard compressor surge, which can only occur when the build up of pressure in charge-piping flutters back on the compressor.
Nah, compressor surge happens when flow is restricted significantly vs RPM/pitch speed, to the point the blades start to aerodynamically stall, unloading them. Happens with boost, as you need a flow restriction to build pressure, but the throttle body first will also restrict flow (but at a low pressure) while closed.
A blow off valve doesn’t do anything this is meant to do, absolutely different things in every way
if i ever get alot money. i will donate to you so you can test all the stuff you know. thanks for making this vid and explaning everything so clear.
Seriously, if I ever won the lottery or just stopped being poor, first buy would be an engine Dyno so I can try, and prove, all the things I’ve wanted to know!
I fucking love it when you do shit like this! 👍
This is a great idea for draw through setups with a second throttle body where a blow through carb would be
That’s a good point! I wonder if that will work, or will the fuel will struggle to pass the 2nd throttle at idle?
I’d like to find out as that would defo solve the need for a carbon seal on the turbo
@@StavTech I think as long as both throttles flowed near the same it would idle fine, most draw through set ups burn mostly fuel vapors when idling and at low throttle input, this is great info to have
@@StavTech another idea I had from this was using a waste-gate actuator for the secondary throttle, have it set at 10-25% open at all times to allow enough airflow to idle and drive but let it open at a set boost pressure
Amazing Work and Great Video 👍💪
Thanks 🙏
this is actually quite common with superchargers, I wonder why there isn't many production cars with throttlebody before turbocharger like this? anyways great content, I love it when I randomly find channels like this :)
Not done on superchargers for this purpose. Superchargers have no lag, throttle position doesn’t affect supercharger performance like that
@@StavTech well yes ofc because they're driven directly by engine rpm...
I read in the original patent on the linkage set up the main throttle is restricted limited to closing only half way while the second turbo swirl throttle flap is nearly fully closed while off throttle , this then creates the effect the pull on the turbo making it spin faster as it gets the full force of the inlet plenum being in vacuum and by being restricted from the flap/vanes in front of the turbo , you would have to experiment with that theory to see if its true and makes a difference.
This is rather interesting, please do more!!
This is the first time seeing this done. I gave an 04 wrx. I'm definitely interested in this setup
You should place a pressure gauge on the compressor outlet. This would help you determine the pressure differential across the oil seal.
Also I still think a standalone ecu would be the way to go. The car would give so much more. And yes I could download a calibration faster than you could change those eproms
Done that in the next vid. With the tune currently being fine a different ecu won’t help performance really.
And yes uploading a new map of fast.
Wiring in a new ecu, and mapping it from scratch, is not
i can see how it works effectively spinning the compressor side in a vacuum between shifts would be cool to see a compressor wheel senor before and after see how the turbo speed degrades slower by how much
Excellent info in there, really interesting to see and hear the results. What sort of rwhp do you think that's pushing on the butt dyno? Seems to be pretty torquey too, can hear it trying to spin up!
I have no idea to be fair. On the old smaller turbo it was 60mph to 100mph in 5.4sec which is same as a V10 twin turbo Audi RS6, so it’s certainly pretty nippy.
Thing is I’ve no idea how heavy it is
Friken Awesome!
Interesting experiment with that 2nd TB!
About that wideband: Is it one of those that needs calibration? Maybe you can try that?
About EZK rev limit: pushing it up only has true benefit when you are using a cam that supports those higher revs (like a K- or H-cam), stonger valve springs would be useful as well.
Doing it while using a stock T-cam would be pointless IMO.
About that 2nd TB: in a stock car Volvo is already doing something similar, they use a CBV (compressor bypass valve) which basically short circuits the boosted side of the compressor back to the unboosted side. This prevents compressor stall and avoids the compressor from having to speed back up from low rpm. But that 2nd throttle valve creating vacume inside the compressor side is offcourse even better. I like it!
Interesting stuff! You can clearly see the difference in lag between your test drives videos. Are you still considering the supercharger turbo conversion?
Yes it’s massive. I mean it’s one thing to feel it’s massive but to even see it on a video says a lot.
You know, this is so effective, for simplicity sake I’m probably not for now.
But I can’t leave anything alone and like to experiment with stuff to know what’s worth doing and not, so I may still!
Learned something new, thank you.
Loving the videos man. Great content. Is the guy who tuned the chips for u only works on volvos? If no, who is he? If only he could do that for my w210 e55. Thanks in advance for any info.
Awesome vid thanks and blimey thats sone aggressive boost
What I'm curious about is whether or not you could still get the turbo dose sound with this setup. I know diesels can't dose (they "bark" instead), but they also don't typically have a throttle plate of ANY kind, let alone one both before AND after the turbo. *EDIT:* Okay, you answered it later in the video. Sad, but damn if it eliminates in-boost lag that's huge. I wonder if you can modify the turbo to operate under vacuum and then run only the pre-turbo throttle.
I love what you've done here - Would it not help you with the boost threshhold if you indexed it to boost rather than throttle. I think on an e-throttle car you wouldn't need to, because it already gradually opens the throttle as load increases, but If you used a vacuum actuatior on the throttle, you should get better response across the board. Obviously it increases complexity though - and this does solve your lag issue.
Just saw this and thought I’d let you know that I tried this with success on a Twin Pro charged Chevy V8. I used a pair of 104mm Iris dampers.
Great content sir 👍👍
Apparently this mod was overlooked by street racers.Maybe the should follow F1 more often!🏎
If carlsberg did mods.....
Brilliant 🤘🏼
F1 did that for turbo lag! The turbo will spool faster if it has no air to compress! The key is when and how to open that 102mm valve?
That and Rallycross cars of the same era is where the idea came from. How was pretty easy, just piggyback off the throttle cable, when is, well, from what I’ve seen on the F1 etc engines, they’re fully open beyond about 30% throttle, which is why I went so big with the throttle, as even at 30% there’d be no restriction
I love it!@@StavTech
I was so enthralled by this video I actually forgot I was pooping
Shitting your pants is always an unfortunate side effect
@@StavTech still working out some issues with blow-by ig
Would be interesting to see how much vacuum there is pre and post compressor as that will dictate how much of an issue oil leaking into the intake will be.
Well as the vid shows, it’s not, so...
@@StavTech Sorry I posted before I finished the vid.... Amazing results man. Makes me want a turbo car again
If you have low compression on a turbo car and worry about the rings, just throw a succ head on there and it'll look normal again ;)
This is a sweet idea! Would the original throttle spring not serve to return the blade on the new throttle body? Then you could remove both springs from the 102mm and hypothetically have the same pedal feel as the stock setup?
Car go vroom. Me like.
That's pretty neat
Cheap throttle body looks quality though wonder if they do slightly smaller sizes ?
Awesome 😎
coming back to this idea, if you have a dbw throttle before the turbo in theory you could use it to get boost to spool a little earlier perhaps?
Set up correctly, yes
So, I had a 200sx on a cossie T4 with pulsar throttle body intake (reversed to fit an SR20det obv) if I had put a throttle before the turbo also, would it have improved throttle response and lag? As much as I loved the kick up the arse when it eventually spooled, less lag would have been good!
I am going to try 2 in series munted with an angle. Gives higher derivata on the airmass acceleration. Sending the air in to a worthex... 😀
I am pretty sure the oil thing was with very old turbochargers. Any turbo deisel would create enough vacuum to cause that issue as they don't use any throttle body.
Turbo diesels have no real vacuum anywhere as they have no throttles, hence why they use electronic or mechanical vac pumps to operate everything .
@StavTech of course what am I thinking. 😆 although some Toyota's use one as a safety.
Around 41:10 shows 806 on your wideband gauge.
Did you find out what this meant on hard pulls?
damnn nice, never heard of this
Its a way of changing pressure ratio without changing boost.
How's it going with the Volvo ? The turbski still in 1 piece ? I'm interested in doing this to the scoob.....please tell me no Sean my EJ will blow up so I don't . God bless you stav Aka the ledge 👌
Yes all good.
Great video
Can you do an update, a quick 1-2 minute video with this setup as is in the video, then again with the pre-turbo throttle wired open? Having "before" and after in a short video would be great. Also easier to spread the news of your guru-ness :p
Or just go look at the previous video on the car
Great video 👍
Lovely metal casket you've got there 😅
You got any with the combustion jet "anti-lag"?
The one that gives you enough boost for your nan and her dog whatever time of day 😂
I'm guessing your setup is giving you more consistent compression, which might be allowing the engine to run richer more comfortably.
In FSAE we could only run one TB and at the time we needed to have it in front of the turbo, so we fucked a turbo or two and while we were looking for solution (hard to find decent turbos for 600cc with limited budget) they changed the rules, so that was nice. Apparently some type of seal is fine with it.
You are not mapping Your car, it's more like saving a new file that a mate emailed to You into the ECU. Whatever.
Thanks for the video.
Nobody said I’m mapping a car?
What's Stopping you making this the one and only throttle ? is it just danger of over speeding the turbo ?
The vac from that is usually what sucks oil out the compressor oil seals. Also meant to give worse throttle response.
What do you have for a rear end in this puppy? I'm probably pushing 220 in my 740 and I'm still one wheeling it!!
Welded diff
Hell yeah!!!
Good shit
I think it might be time to buy some sticky tyres for that thing?
The set up running a pre carb is a great way to improve both throttle and turbo response but there is an issue that when closed it will cause negative pressure this over time will cause catastrophic failure as with many racing cars back in the day which happens when the oil seal has a catastrophic failure which won't just leak a little it will all flood the turbo at pressure which may lead to breakage of fins when a large volume of liquid hits them at speed suddenly warping/bending leading to chatter and breakage also the suddon loss of oil pressure will kill the engine and could possibly blow the engine if the timing jumps out .. . This is why many race cars and rally cars switched to the modern type of antilag on turbo set ups because of this reason yes it works good but as soon as one of thosevoil seals blows out or in this case gets sucked put it will lead to multiple failures that will lead to catastrophic failure ....the oil leakage will not happen straight away it won't be a continual issue from beginning but over a period of time the negative atmospheric pressures put a strain on the oil seals in the opposite way to what the seals is designed for in normal pop's the positive pressure helps to keep the seals in place preventing the oil pressure pushing oil into the turbo if u suck the oring on one side and push with oil pressure on the other side you double the stress on the oring with it unseating the seal which is death to the engine... if you look in the 80s and 90s how often the cars on track would have engine failures these failures were because of this set up yes it gives greater responses on boost and throttle but at what cost I remember seeing the cars on track after every few races either swapping out the engines or blowing an engine after only a few races 9 out of ten timescud see oil burn from exhaust and then bang there out an oil spray all over the track and there would be an anouncement that that team is now out seem to be an oil pressure problem or an oil leak which is why it is not a good idea to run such a set up for a road car... the seals will pop when u least expect it there is usually no signs right up until they actually let loose an in that instance you don't want it on road because if your engine goes bang an u spill oil on the road your putting other people's lives at risk cos u might cause a crash when the seals suddenly let loose honestly think you need to think more when modding a car it's not just the performance you need to keep road safety in mind particularly if you are looking to run it as a daily driver or road car...
This is all covered in the video, including the solution to this.
And this wasn’t why the engines had failiures back then. Well maybe some badly done draw thru turbo setups, but not the ones with the throttle pre turbo etc
E-throttle would be a good improvement and then get it on the dyno to tune and test properly
You can’t test throttle response properly on a dyno
out of curiosity, whats the point of having a throttlebody after the turbo if you already have one before the turbo?
Throttle response (though if you could feel that is debatable), and not creating such a big vaccum it sucks oil out the seal on the compressor side of the turbo
3 decades ago i went in a dr30 skyline with this