Vanagon Big Brake Kit Comparison - Burley Motorsports vs SmallCar
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ก.ค. 2024
- Ever wondered how the two top big brakes kits for Vanagon's compared to each other? Well in this video we take off our SmallCar brake kit and do a part by part comparison to the Burley Motorsports kit. We then install the BMS kit and let you know what we think of it.
Burley Motorsports Big Brake kit:
burleymotorsports.net/product...
SmallCar Big Brake kit:
smallcar.com/vanagon-bus-upgr...
#t3 #vanagon #brakes
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Really thorough breakdown thank you. Also Happy New Year!
Glad it was helpful!
Happy New Year!!
Nate
Really nice explanation, as usual. Ordered Burley kit and make me confident to mount it myself. Living in Quebec, I'm still struggling to get 16" wheel for this setup.
Thank you again, cheers
Thanks! You’ll love the brakes.
Nate
Thanks for your thorough video comparison and install procedure.
Glad it was helpful!
Nate
Thank you. This is on my list.
Awesome!
nate
Great video and thank you for all the information. Helps out so much. **cheers** - Chewie
Thanks!
Nate
This is a great idea for a channel!
Thanks
nate
Hi Nate,
This is another excellent video from you! My DoKa is almost back together from the restoration and I’ll see if the Small Car set up is still sufficient. I am going with a rear disc brake setup so I’ll see how it stops.
I look forward to your next video! Thank You!
Thanks! The SmallCar kit was really good but we just wanted to try something different. The front and rear Burley kit works well together
Nate
I have the BMS 4 wheel disc kit. I am running an SVX 6 cylinder with the Subaru 5 spd. with that power I needed to get good brakes. Burly makes high quality parts and would recommend them all day.
Nice! So far we are really liking the kit
Nate
Great video. As it happens, I will have my Smallcar brakes, installed on my 1988 Westy in 2013, replaced next week with the Burley brake kit. I do not have the bigger brake booster but hope the Burley brakes will resolve my current braking issues. Your excellent video tempts me to try installing the kit myself, but I will most likely come to my senses and take it to a professional.
What braking issues are you having? If you are not 100% confident, it is best left to a professional!
nate
My brakes work but on the passenger side the pad constantly rubs against the rotor, creating a chirping noise that only stops when you apply the brakes. The first shop I took it to made it worse. I talked to Burley and he thought that one of the dual caliper pistons may have failed. I decided to go all in on a new set of Burley brakes with ceramic pads. Your video gives me hope that I am making the right move.
Yep sounds like you may have some sticky pistons. The Burley kit should fix that!
nate
Nate, nice job. Looking at this for my '90 Westy - question - do the BMS hubs come with the studs already pressed in, or did you need to do that? Also, any thoughts around the Gowesty BB kit? Thanks! Andy
No you need to press them in. Or you can just tap them in with a hammer
nate
Nate, excellent video. Wondering what you torqued the caliper bracket bolts to?
I think Bentley says 200ft/lbs but I just tightened them as much as my 1/2" breaker bar would go.
Nate
Thanks for your GREAT video! You mention in the end (at 21:30 ish) that you've upgraded to the BMW E30 brake booster. I didn't see that you had a video on that. I'll assume you didn't capture the swap at the time? I just figured if I'm ripping my brakes apart, it might just be worth it to upgrade the entire shootin' match!
No we installed the E30 booster before we had a channel. There are a lot of threads on theSamba on this upgrade. You will need to pull the dash off to get it out though which makes it a great time to do maintenance on your heater core/blower.
nate
BMW brake booster made a huge difference, really makes the upgraded discs come to life. Prior to the booster upgrade I wasn’t impressed with the small car kit.
Agreed, our booster was a big upgrade
nate
Great review. Thanks for the comparison! It looks like the Small Car hubs are machined billet now.
Good to know, thanks!
nate
Montana , That was back when they used to buy BMS hubs , Since Mao left they decided it was cheaper to go back to machining down cast iron brake discs to harvest the center hub and installing screw in studs.
BMS hubs are still and always have been CNC machined from Billet high grade aircraft alloy steel with press in studs.
Small car hubs are still cut from stock rotor
Nice addition to Vanagon knowledge. I did a diy big brake conversion featuring Jaguar calipers and rotors following guidelines from a popular VW forum site. Need to have a good working relationship with a machinist for that since one must mill down Vanagon rotors to make the hubs like what you show comes with aftermarket kits. Most of my driving is up and down Colorado ranges and I am very satisfied with my results. Question is what benefit did you get from the BMW brakes booster add on? Forum threads I have read seem inconclusive about any benefits especially pedal feel?
I would normally do a DIY kit as I’ve done them before on some Jeep’s but I wanted to get this done before our big summer trip and wanted to try the Burley kit. The Jag calipers are a nice setup for sure.
Nate
The booster helps the pedal feel a little more modern or “easier to push” than the stick booster. Great upgrade for us.
I've had the same G-57 kit (old VanCafe) for several years now. I didn't like the slide pin boots as they are mostly hollow inside and I was getting a lot of noticeable caliper flex when the brakes were applied. I installed solid brass pin boots from TYrol Sports that address this problem with Audi brakes. I did have to grind a bit on the rear of the caliper to get enough space for the circlip to fit,but I did it with the caliper still attached to the brake line. Much better brake feel IMO. Also have the BMW booster and a 735i 25mm master cylinder. My rears discs are Smallcar.
That is on my radar for sure and I’ve bookmarked the Tyrolsport page! Sounds like you’ve got a solid setup there!
Nate
Hi, Nate. THanks for the good info.
I want to ask something others have shouted at me for - would you recommend disks at the back, and if so, which ones?
I plan to carry medium to heavy loads on the back and haul trailers with my '80 DoKa, and feel I need the extra stoppage.
Please advise if you can.
Regards.
Yes absolutely I would recommend rear disc brakes. I really do not like drum brakes, especially for a vehicle that goes off road as they get filled with dirt, water, and debris. We are in the process of upgrading our rear brakes at this time as well. Stay tuned for the video!
nate
I’d go burley. I have the small cars and one pad wore way quicker than the rest. May have been a fluke I replaced and I’m waiting to see how they wear.
Great comparison video. Those Mercedes spindle nuts might be distorted somehow due to the Allen bolt either being in or out when you took them off and put them back on. Glad to see someone else using the Motive bleeder system.
Could be. I tried to put them on with and without the bolt in and it didn't seem to make a difference. I could have kept turning and they would go on but it seemed to big a risk to damage the threads on the spindle. I am going to buy a new set and compare them and see if I can figure it out.
nate
@@ThatBaldwinLife I agree. Much cheaper to replace those spindle nuts than the spindle!
Heck yeah!
@@ThatBaldwinLife Great video! I got those Mercedes axle nuts but have not installed them yet. Did you get to try new ones yet?
Any update on this? I’m in the process of rebuilding my suspension and saw your video on the Mercedes nut. I ended up buying a set but didn’t install it yet. Any update on this?
Thanks
Nate, where did you get your wheels? I got mine from Van-Cafe but they no longer carry them. Nice comparison, I have the Small Car brakes all around. No problems and I love them.
Our wheels are from VanCafe as well.
Nate
Great video, Is there any info on the size wheel they work with?? I use Jetta 15" alloy wheels... thanks much..
Burley has wheel info on his site for reference
Nate
Good Job on the video. Now the rear wheels.
Oh don't worry, we have that well under way...... :)
nate
Thank you for the video. I just got the Burley kit and will be done installing shortly. Can you please share what model cars these parts are sourced from for future replacement? Burley did not share this info. Thanks in advance!
Hi Guy. That is a tough position for me to be in as Burley has reasons as to why he does not share the info but I understand the desire to source replacement parts for the future. All I can say is research the caliper and you should find what you are looking for. Hope that helps.
nate
early 2000s audis. I believe its the Audi Ate 57
Hi...Nate...this is Manuel we meet on syncro fest, I have you sticker on my van, besides cool videos I like the upgrades, already made 2 the front round lights and the burley brakes disc, pretty expensive bydaway...I have question about you tire wheel where I can get a set of those. If you can give some info. I will appreciate...thank you..
Hi Manuel! The wheels are from VanCafe and are 16” Carrot wheels but I don’t think they make them anymore.
Thanks for watching!
Nate
I appreciate you sharing your observations here. I wish there was a simplified kit for big brakes especially when it comes to older model vanagons which require later year spindles. It'd be great if some enthusiast would fabricate new spindles (or an adapter if that will work?)
Smallcar does have an early Vanagon kit where they modify your spindles. Not sure how it works but you might want to check it out.
smallcar.com/vanagon-bus-upgrades/driving-upgrades/early-vanagon-80-85-front-brake-upgrade-kit/
nate
@@ThatBaldwinLife Thanks Nate. It's good to know the option is out there.
@@ThatBaldwinLife The necc machining of early spindles to fit big brake kits is very sketchy at best. It involves removing a lot of material from places like the caliper mounting flanges designed by VW engineers to withstand radial loads generated during emergency stops. Being that nowadays we all overload our vans with family and equipment this may be something to consider. Probably a better suggestion is to ask those designing the necessary modifications to your early spindles is '' what are your engineering credentials '' ?
Great point!
nate
@@BurleyMotorsports You are right. It seems questionable. I think I'd have more faith in a reproduction of the late model spindles by a reputable manufacturer. Or, at least an improved spindle.
Do these work with the 15 Gowesty steelies?
Your best bet would be to reach out to Burley Motorsports for confirmation.
nate
Im wondering about the rear brake kits. Whats your experience with those? Their selling features seem to be !@E# talking each others kits
We have the Burley rear disc brake kit and think it’s the best one out there. We have a video of the instal on our channel. Yes lots of strong personalities in the Vanagon retail game! 😁
Nate
Hi Nate! Nice video!
Some corrections of facts around 4 min. The G60 caliper has two 54mm pistons, not a total of 60mm. G60 is the type of car, it has nothing to do with the piston diameter of the caliper.
Thanks! I had not heard that before and maybe I should have done a bit more research before making that statement. Appreciate the info. My G60s have two different sized pistons, one bigger than the other. Do you know what the total piston area is then?
nate
@@ThatBaldwinLife , Since we used to sell the G60 kits , I'll share some of the differences between the G60 and G57 calipers.
Along with information and some reason's we went to the much newer model G57 calipers.
The G60 caliper has two pistons a 40 and 45 mm diameter.
Below are a couple of other notes on these calipers and quick comparison between the G60 and G57 kits.
1) The G60 calipers were designed for cars made in 1985 to approx 1995 vs G57 is used from 1999 to 2012 on various VW and Audi models.
2) Brand new G60 calipers are No Longer Available , quality rebuilt units are a hit or miss proposition , our experience was a lot of miss lol.
3) G60 calipers and pads are designed for 276 mm od rotor thereby when being used with one of larger 282 or 288 mm rotors there is a good percentage of rotor friction surface width not being put into use.
While length of the pads is close to the same the G60 pad is much narrower than the G57 pad.
G57 pads use the entire friction surface on a 288 mm od rotor, which makes sense as it was designed for use with this rotor and harvested from a much newer car.
4) Fitment of the G60 caliper to Vanagon spindle requires some questionable machine work be done to the caliper carrier bracket whereas the BMS G57 kit is a direct bolt on fit.
5) high quality pads in the popular ceramic compound to my knowledge is not available , high quality semi metallic is hard to find and is much more expensive approx $100 + vs $35 for G57 Ceramic pads.
In summary the G60 calipers based Vanagon big brake kits were good for what they were back in the day.
Being its now 2022 , new G60 calipers ,other parts for that kit have become obsolete we switched to more modern based kit that provides comparable if not better stopping power and parts easy to get.
G60 kits were a mish mosh of parts from various models of VW Audi , whereas the G57 Kits are all from the same car thereby making brake service cheaper faster and parts super easy to get.
In case your interested here's a link to the BMS kit burleymotorsports.net/product/vanagon-front-disc-brake-kit/
@burleymotorsports Thanks for chiming in on the vid! Glad you could share some knowledge about the calipers.
nate
My bad, typo, meant 45mm not 54mm 🙄 Also forgot about the different piston size. Me too should have looked it up again to refresh my memory 😆
@@Alikanake I had to go back into the warehouse and measure the pistons in a rebuild kit because I didn't remember the size either hahaha
Well I'll know who to call for brake service now!
You know my number!
Yeah did mine awhile back but next time....your up!
Can I get his number for mine too :) lol
Can you tell me which wheels and tires you are using and where I can buy them?
The wheels are from VanCafe but they do not sell them anymore. They are a 16"x7.5" wheel. The tires were 215/65/16 Nokina Rotiva but we now have BFG AT KO2's in the same size.
nate
I'm I able to add and bleed brakes without the pump you showed on the video?
Yep, the pressure pump just makes it easier with one person versus the standard method of one person pushing the brake pedal and the other opening the bleeder.
Nate
@@ThatBaldwinLife Thanks for taking the time to show a great video
You bet!
nate
Or you could get the original ones from the syncro 16. Have an 89, and they are amazing after 33 years
Interesting. Not sure how available those are compared to the newer Audi parts but glad they have worked out for you!
nate
Like.
✌
If you dont put bigger wider tires on your van this does nothing.
Maybe. But remember the big brake kits will not work with the stock 14” wheels. You would need at least 15” but most people go with 16” wheels and a 215/65/16 tire. That is substantially wider than the stock 185 tire. So it kind of takes care of itself.
Nate
@@ThatBaldwinLife I understand the want and need if you had a Subie in there but how does your wasserboxer spin that?
You don’t need to accelerate fast to need to stop fast! Our 2.2L WBX will push us at 70 mph on the highway and the big mountain passes sure are nicer with the bigger front brakes and rear discs. The brake upgrade was one of the best improvements we have made to our Vanagon.
Nate
Wow
You do a comparison but don't take the opportunity to measure un-sprung weight
Why didn't you weight the entire kits for both and or compared it to stock
A couple off other points
You should have supported the underside off the hub when tapping in the first bearing race, you risking the wheel studs unsettling
Lastly
Far far far to much grease
To much grease is the number one cause of bearing failure
Too much grease causes friction
Friction causes heat
Hear softens the bearing
Thanks for the comments.
Regarding un-sprung weight, I have not had the stock brakes on the front of the van for years so we couldn't compare them to stock. Second, how much the kits weigh are not important to me at all. Our van is close to 5K lbs loaded up, a few lbs here or there sprung or un-sprung will make no difference. I am sure you can call SmallCar and Burley and ask about the weights.
Understand the concern on the tapping, but the studs take much more force to unseat than the light taps of the bearing.
It's hard to put too much grease in there as the excess will come out as you seat the bearing. If it is still too much, then it will leak past the seals. I cannot imagine a scenario where grease in a non pressurized environment causes enough heat to soften bearing. Never had a bearing fail after I have replaced it in 30 years of wrenching.
nate