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Go hybrid its better to have and not need than to need and not have as far as diesel goes sell both diesel engines and the generator change to all electric
buy a diesel electric generator that can more than take care of your electric needs not a diesel engine to run your boat but makes enough electric power to run your systems and electric motors small and light weight if possible also talk to the Redflow battery company you get a free trial for their new flow batteries they could greatly improve your real battery needs at reduced cost
@@jdhuff1047 What happens when the electric drives aren't powerful enough when caught in severe conditions ? When you have glass smooth sea conditions and no wind, for perspective I was able to use a Mercury 3.3 hp 2 stroke outboard on the back of the dinghy, to power a very heavy bilge keel yacht at over 5 knots for a bit over 40 miles, only put 4 litres in the tank refilling to complete the journey. On the other extreme, I've been in a Force 10 plus Storm for over 3 days with no sunshine - the only time I've been Seasick but the engine was powerful enough to keep us heading in the right direction and got us through it. "Wouldn't it be nice if" Virtue Signalling has no place in a Marine Environment where backups of Backups tend to be the only Sensible Option, and you have to have a plan for when more than one thing at a time Fails. My last boat had enough power in the diesel engine to power me out of a Tidal Rip Wreckers led us into , but didn't have enough power in astern to avoid rocks we'd been pushed towards. Plus the Marine Environment is very hard on everything, and electric motors can't make themselves immune from that like anything else can they? In wear abd tear terms, Marine is 10 times worse than Land. Diesels thrive on being worked, left idle is bad for them, and respond to clean oil, clean fuel, and clean air with regular servicing and tlc. Treated properly, on land a million miles is not uncommon. so at 10 to 1, a hundred thousand miles equivalent should be possible at sea. Treat them badly, and diesels will let you down. Too many liveaboards have awful state engine oil when they change it, and don't even change impellers frequently enough. Be as reliable for your engine and transmission, as you want your engine and transmission to be for you. 👍
I don`t recall the boat rebuild site but he used a small diesel that could stand on its own and could move the boat no real change there but it has twin generators mounted that can be used to run your electric prop with power enough to run all ships systems as well you mount the prop differently, the regen from this type they are more common i don`t remember the names will generate electric power paired with solar panels , windmills and good batteries now you have a system that should meet your needs with sound backup still make power and motion with the diesel or batteries and can use the diesel to charge the batteries as for the rocks some times the diesel can`t keep you off the rocks twin props will help with that but the sea is a bad bitch and she just might slap your ass down anyway but in this case i would put in bow thrusters fore and aft i think that could help a lot keeping you off the rocks and more my dream boat is a trimaran
I would sell the yanmar and rebuild the Volvo penta and put it back in, this will give you the power to move in stormy weather, and through the Panama Canal like you said. After reinstalling the Volvo penta put a large alternator on the engine to charge your batteries along with your solar. You could possible get rid of the generator so you can have more room for batteries or fuel. Take a look at project aticus as they just did an alternator upgrade project and documented it. Sailing Ruby Rose is also not putting a generator in there new Boat and is using an upgraded alternator on there engines and solar panels to charge their batteries. Sailing Ruby Rose is going to be a catamaran so they will have 2 engines. Good luck with your decision, I enjoy watching the videos it's great information.
A great discussion here! As a fellow airline pilot and boater with critical thinking skills, here are my thoughts: 1. The real world is unforgiving. Living on board with your family you must have a reliable backup propulsion! Reliability! 2. Don’t experiment with unproven electric technology! No one has done exactly what your about to do. Safety! My suggestion is thus: Have a single large Diesel engine with a large output alternator. Maybe even a straight shaft modification. Add two bow thrusters for docking. No generator and as much solar as you can afford or have space. Watch Sailing Uma and their issues with all electric, they spend a lot of time going from shore power to shore power and carry a portable Honda generator. Again, the real world is unforgivable! Love your channel, good luck!
Sailing uma are currently sailing north of the Artic circle at the moment its going into six months of night so they will have scarpered south and as they were at the South hampton boat show again they will be aiming like Barts family staying out of cold dark climbs other than perhaps summer forays or returning to home to Poland if needed at an unfavourable time of year. Though an early silent yatch MV. and the trial prototype the designer and his familly lived on both crossed oceans in winter without having any sails and still having generator fuel left in their tanks . The Early production one actually crossed the Atlantic in Feb against headwinds to the USA with a full crew and using all the kit at about 6- 10knots. They used the generator in part because they also wanted to get there for a boat show. There are dozens of electric ferries working on Giant European lakes and rivers now and between islands in the Nordic countries. The motors they use on silent yatch's were originally developed for driving buses round European cities. In a boat they can be easily water cooled by a simple PEX plastic coil jacket but so it could for the high output alternators which would increase their efficiency. Without great cost or corrosion issues.🤔
a lot of boaters out there have only diesel and no backup electric or diesel. so why talk about back up propolsion power with electric drive? electric power has been around longer than diesel, i believe, so it's hardly not proven.
@@iainlyall6475 I am not following your response. The issue is about backup power for when things go wrong, like no wind or no sunshine and no shore power. This discussion is about electricity needs and charging batteries, how to get enough reliable power. I am basically saying that our current electric propulsion technology is not there yet. There’s not enough electricity to run this boat for this family’s usage in a safe or reliable way for their lifestyle. Unless they go primitive without most modern conveniences.
We just recently installed a new 50 hp Nanni on our 14m yacht to replace a worn out 40hp perkins. We looked into electric, but decided it was not practical in the places we sail. In Tasmania we can go weeks without seeing the sun much, and there are strong tides, rough water, strong and variable winds to deal with. We needed a motor that was absolutely reliable and could be run any time for as long as needed. I would have loved to go electric, I think it would be a possible option if we were in more tropical waters
Agree with the last couple of comments. UMA has an electric engine which recharges the batteries when under sail - it changes from an engine to a hydro-generator with big amperage at reasonable sailing speeds. A lot of catamaran sailors use only one engine while under power. So maybe you can do that and use the second engine as a generator.
option 4 with the small genset and the battery setup with solar is the best options long term and make sure you use the Victron inverter system, Sailing UMA would be a good connect with them, also Ran sailing for the Batteries. Don't do any of the other options as this will change the way you live. life will be much better.
That's where I am leaning. I still need to talk to Uma. They are supposedly converting back to diesel, but that may be because they are mono, with limited solar space and cruising high latitudes. Cheers John. Bartek
Absolutely.. But, load your boat with Lithium batteries.. Your props can become the power generators. Sailing Uma did it.. Now, you have twice the power, as you have two hulls... Well, there is a new technology of shooting a kite to drive the boat. I suggest to add at the forward... @JohnCorrenti mentioned one best..
@@correntij Aah, My bad, I didn't know that.. Just watched NautiStyles Ep yesterday.. They were touring a Full Elec Cat.. Just found some random videos.. Let me dig into it.. Thank you so much for the quick response.. :-)
Stay with a multi fuel diesel. Sustainability and recyclability with LiPo batteries still make me nervous. Also. Keep your generator(s) or get higher output. Does your vessel have AC and heat? Will your system be able to sustain that efficiently under a 100% whilst using it? Hot water is necessary. Will it keep a good hot water system or will you go use on demand natural gas?
You may want to think about it a little differently. Just like with flying and being a pilot, when your primary system fails what is your backup plan? This is why you have 2 mags on the engine and 2 radios, and 2 yokes. Same as your reasoning for 2 electric motors on the boat. Consider that 100% electric is your primary system. The primary system components would be sails, solar, wind turbine, large battery bank, and electric motors. Then your consideration is only about backup. It could be a compromise of having a 7kw generator and small diesel tank for the rare occasions that you need it. You clearly have the room for it. You then think about it as an investment in an insurance policy. Down the road if you never use it and/or technology has advanced to the point that it becomes unnecessary then you get rid of the insurance policy. If you look at the companies building all electric yachts, I believe they are building in generators so that they can limp along to safety in case of emergency.
As you still have young kids, I personally would go with the hybrid option. Gaining of "electrical knowledge" by practice and experience seems to be the most compelling goal at this stage. In a couple of years option 4 would become viable, but then coupled with decent experience, practice and knowledge. For now: dual battery bank + solar (integrated with the new overhang) + twin electric propellers alongside current diesel engine + generator. The diesel engine and generator can be phased out in a couple of years with dual generators (one generator per electric propeller). Do note: The middle section later on can be used as the 'main' battery bank supplemented with the battery banks on either side. In his way you will have the perfect weight distribution. The middle section can also be converted into a third or even upgraded into the 'main' electric propeller in due time. Therefore option 5 seems to be an option after typing the above: solar + triple electric propellers. One battery bank and generator per propeller. I understand that you only have one engine now. If that one engine fails, the rest will fail in cascade as well. Therefore, you will still need to have the generator to keep the current electronics working.
Hi guys! I am very much moved by the number and the depth of comments that contain a lot of useful suggestions, recommendations, and your own experiences. Thank you so much! I feel obligated to answer you all. It is impossible for me to answer everyone by replying to each comment, because it would take me weeks to do it properly. I will take my best shot at answering all the reoccurring questions and comment on reoccurring issues raised. So first let me clear up few most important details: We now have 2,3 kW of solar panels on the roof that produce just about 10 kWh per day as long as we don’t sail. The sails generate shadow causing this production to fall about 40% on average (here obviously electric motors with regeneration capability could offset that loss). The minimum proposed new setup will generate 20-30 kWh a day, while our house needs are about 10 if we are in an all-out luxury mode. This will increase by about 1 kWh once we switch to induction cooking from propane. So, let’s say our house needs will be about 11-12 kWh. The rest remains available to recharge the motor banks and/or supplement propulsion real-time reducing the discharge rate on the motor banks. It is conceivable that we may expand the solar generation to the point where we would be able to slowly motor just from the solar power. That is somewhat experimental until we actually put the boat in the water and measure the power draw at given speed and sea/wind conditions. I am being optimistic because the boat is very light and in calm conditions can move very efficiently through the water, with minimal drag at low speeds let’s say under 5 knots. We do not want to remain with the big diesel onboard, while adding large battery bank and electric motors as this adds significant weight and in case of our narrow hulls the boat sinks quick under extra load degrading the performance significantly. We are NOT considering a high voltage system. Currently 48 V DC is all that is on the table. That is something you can touch without harm (well unless you completely wet than you get a decent tickle). Yes, we are talking with OceanVolt about their ServoProp among others. Their system seems to offer the most significant region capability. With our cruising speeds we are looking at upwards of 2 kW non-stop while sailing. That’s 3-4 hours of driving the electric motors at full speed after 24 hours of sailing. The latest under consideration is a 48 DC gasoline portable 7,5 kW portable genset for occasional use. It weighs around 70 kg. About a quarter of the current diesel or about a half of the similar sized diesel genset. Medium sized diesel genset is also under consideration despite the weight. The pros are safety, and much better integration. We are not considering a battery bank that allows 15 hour autonomy. That would be enormous cost and weight. I think we will end up with 2-4 hours autonomy at full speed. At half speed we’re talking 3 times as long or more. Then there are the solars that are drastically increasing the autonomy. Then there are hardly ever the calms with such light winds that we could not sail at least a bit. But for those rare occasions and for the rare need to power against a local storm we would seriously want at least some sort of genset. Normally in macro situations we positions our boat to weather systems in such a way as to use the lows to our advantage rather than getting pummeled. That’s sort the beauty of the latest weather models and routing capabilities from Predictwind coupled our more than average sailboat cruising speed. Of course that applies to long oceanic legs where we are not limited in our options by a landmass. Electric motors present the very high torque even at lowest RPM and do not give us the same top speed as diesel. But this is exactly what we are after. We are after being able to power through a local storm against gusty winds rather than go high speed for hours. That we can do much better while sailing. OceanVolt gave us an estimate that the torque and thrust produced by 2 x 15 kW Servoprop drives will equal approximately to an single 80-90 HP diesel in terms of torque. So effectively it should be better for what we need than either of the two diesels we have available. They also said the max speed will not be there . But I hardly see a need to go faster than 5-6 knots under power. Currently top speed at full power, calm conditions with the existing 54 HP Yanmar is about 8+ knots. Thank you again for inspiration to looking into few more options and aspects of this hard choice that we gonna have to live with for the next few year and as I hope we will want to live with for the rest of the sailing life. Cheers guys and thank you so much for getting involved so seriously. It’s very helpful. Bartek
What an opportunity! Forget the Panama scenario - hire a generator just for that occasion. LiFePO4 batteries are very safe if managed well. In my experience you don't want to charge them up to the manufacturers 3.65V per cell - you can add lifecycles and safety by keeping each cell between 3.0V to 3.45V and only lose about 5% capacity. A small generator can be your absolute last resort and could probably maintain 4-5 knots on it's own. Have you looked at TEMA? They make very high quality electric drives and are based in Croatia.
Option 3B for me, larger generator with a battery bank. Option 4, as you've mentioned, is quite risky as you would need to have a large battery bank and that will costs a lot of money. Battery and solar panel tech is not there yet to have the capacity to give peace of mind. Plus, you will always have sth hanging over your head range anxiety.
The generator should be enuf to both power and charge at the same time plus, maybe, 20%. The buffer is dependent on how long you want to run the generator.
My choice would be to build in max performance in case of emergencies, sickness, running away from storms etc. I would put the volvo engine back in as a generator, have two electric drives and maybe add to your battery bank. If you are sailing mainly in warmer climates you would have good solar so you would not need to run the volvo much as a generator so boat would be quiet most of the time. However if you needed to get somewhere quick you have the option to run the volvo more often. This option gives good safety in terms of speed if you need it, quiet running most of the time and your air conditioners can be run non-stop when needed.. A good compromise in weight too. Best wishes.
Hi Folks, I am just waiting for a delivery so good time to do a detail response. The thing you are doing is not easy. I was going trough the same exercise and COVID hit. Being in Australia and my Catamaran in France and the Australian quarantine laws are restrictive. So basically getting out was easy getting back not so. So all on hold until next European summer. Here is what I have learned and how you may approach it. Its about the propulsion architecture and marine institutes have done some research on this matter and to date cost benefits are still questionable. However if done right then your autonomy is only limited by food or access to food supply. The best way is to draw a diagram of it. At the centre of the system is the battery bank. I do not know what your boat weights but you are probably looking at 20-40kwh pack. This is the focal point and all your equipment will run from that. Both house loads and propulsion. You can eliminate propane and all the hassles you have with it and getting it refilled. Draw a diagram and on the top put all the house loads, fridge, cooking, AC, navigation equipment, watermarked, washing machine. Split it what can run on 12/24 or 240 volts. Once you have decide where the inverters will go and DC to DC conversion. On the other side list all the inputs into the battery bank. Solar, wind generators AC/DC generator, hydro generator. Finally the drive system, one or two motors. Always be aware of cable lengths. Battery Bank. The battery chemistry is very much set for the price / performance / longevity / safety / cycling and that is LIFPO4. Do you have one battery bank or split them in two. For easier battery management its advisable to have one large bank, but a case can be made for both. Another is do you run your house 12/24 loads from main bank vie dc-dc or have the dc-dc charge a separate house battery. For me now dc-dc is best. Few years back maybe not. Voltage. Low voltage 48V DC or higher. 48V DC s much safer and enables normal people to work on the system. Soon as you go higher then you need licenced electricians etc. Also 48V DC you can purchase of the shelf. Same applies to 230/240 DC to AC inverters for house loads. Only issue is that 48V DC battery banks can be limited to how much output you can get out to drive the propulsion motors. When I was doing my planning some 2 years ago it was 15KW motors, but now have read that 30KW motor solutions are possible. So if you can getaway with it have a 48V battery bank and drive everything of it. Motors. AC DC Saildrive, shaft, pod. They all have their pros and cons. The number one factor you should consider is hydro generation. How much power can you get into the battery bank when sailing. I think your trimaran would be fast so to you could get heaps of power into you banks and recharge them very quickly. Will also need tolook the abilty to feather the props to stop battery overcharging or dump resistors. As for location I would keep them both in the main hull due to cabling issue. If you have 15KW motor in an ama in a 48V system you could be looking at well over 300 amps running from battery to motor. Lot of current and current hates bends etc in cables. Overheating, resistance hot spots will be almost impossible to avoid in cables that long. Also where do you put the Inverter for motors, near the motor and run a long DC cable or near battery bank. One fact 1KW electric motors is not equal to 1KW diesel engine and ratios of 2 or more to 1 are regularly quoted. That does tell the true story as electric motors have instant torque and will be better at low medium speeds and accelerations. Diesel will make up the difference up high or last 1 and a bit knots, but how often do you run a marine diesel at high revs. Solar Panels. Stay away from the thin walk on type. Had them, they over heat burn out and produce far less power. (not just my opinion) I had them got rid of them and on my catamaran I have 4 Sunpower and produce so much more. Multiples times more. So stay with glass ones and have them raised from the deck so cooling air goes under them. You might have to build a lightweight frames for them but you would need far less of them. Another thing have a separate MPPT controller for each panel. Normally people wire them up, one panel goes down to 30 percent the whole bank goes down as well. There are now panels with a micro inverter in each, which would be perfect, just do not know if they are suitable for a marine environment. Generator. AC / DC. No brainer in this, if you adopt central battery bank then a DC generator is perfect as it is used just to top up battery. DC generators are far lighter. I was looking at 20KW polar power set and that was only about 180kg in weight. A 20KW AC generator was 400 to nearly 600kg. My 9KW AC Onan is just over 300kg, with mounting brackets etc. But that would apply for the DC generator but would be less. If you want to find out more look at Polar Power, they have some good white papers and diagrams to get the though process going. many other research documents are on the same page, but like all vendor documents. Do your research. Also you are talking about a big solar panel bank some 6KW, and get the hydro generator worked out you might need smaller. BTW linking an AC / DC generator directly to propulsion motors is not efficient as its hard to line up the most efficient output of the generators to what the propulsion motors need. When charging the battery bank the DC generator goes to the most efficient rev range and dumps the electricity in regardless of what the propulsion motors need. BTW I have 30 years in High Tech industry and build telecommunications and internet networks around the world. Power deliver, backup, redundancy are key. So if you were to ask me how would I do it If I was going electric / hybrid. All the experience over the years is that 80 - 90 percent of faults is the cabling and connections so taking that into mind and I am also assuming your bout is 10-15 tones fully loaded. In the main hull I would put the DC Generator, then behind the battery bank and then probably 2 48 volt electric sail drives that can feather props. The battery compartment would house the MPPT, dc to dc etc equipment along with the safety switch's, breakers. The motor inverters I would put as close to them. That will keep your system tight, cable distances / length short and will far easy to maintain and diagnose. Imagine doing diagnoses where your battery banks etc are in the main hull and motor in the ama. Plus your boat looks really wide, what rudder forces would you need to keep the boat straight when running on one motor. As for fuel tank, cut the size in half and save 300 kg, house battery banks another 100- 200 kg. But keep the generator starter battery separate, even if some can be starter by the DC generator acting as a starter using the main bank. If you want easy pivoting just put a bow thruster in. Hope this helps and gets the though process going. It will not be cheap. And on a final note, keep you manufactures numbers small. So if you can get battery bank, inverters , chargers, shunts, dc bars from one manufactures great, or as few as possible. Interoperability is the issue and falls into the 80-90 percent, connection problems. Full electric, forget it, not until we get the battery chemistry density a lot higher. PS enjoy your cold winter :-(
Thank you for this in depth analysis. Lots of good points I agree on. I am planning to separate the banks into two. Separate bank for each motor. One of the big reasons to go with this conversion is to gain redundancy. In case if one side/motor fails for any reason, we still have a fully independent system on the other side to be able to limp to the nearest anchorage and figure out where the problem is. I am not sure what you mean by inverters for the motors. Please let me know. Perhaps I am not seeing something. Cheers mate and thank you for sharing this much infor with us. B
@@sailoceans Hi, What I meant to say and was not clear. It's is all dependent on what voltage your battery bank you will be using. Also the propulsion motors location. Was not sure if they would be in the amas. My recommendation would have been in the main hull. If it is a high voltage system then you do not want to run high voltage DC cables though the boat. So in that case your inverters for the motors would be best put as close to the High voltage DC source which is the battery bank. And then run AC current to them. You want to keep the high voltage DC current cable runs as short as possible. Have a look or google DC arc faults. They have been thousands of house solar systems catching fires because of that. Yes there are solutions to limit the danger but best to avoid any long high voltage DC connection and cabling. Especially marine environments that just seems to find a way to screw up electronics and electrical systems. Just a questions, your propulsion motors will be AC? While I am here another thing is your solar installation, you mentioned it will be a large installation, I have a 10kw solar system in my house and in each panel has a micro inverter embedded, (enphase) so DC to 230 V AC is done at the panel, then linked in parallel. So if one panel fails or is shaded it does not effect any of the others. Do not know if these are suitable for yachts yet. My are Sunpower AC Modules panels. I did it for system output and stop any DC fires as there have been 100's of solar panel fires in Australia due to DC arc. So on solar, stay away from the walk on and go to glass, make the frames for them, and if mico inverters are not suitable for a yacht, have separate mppt controllers for each. You have plenty of space for them on you trimaran. Keep well Mick
A comment from someone with a degree in electrical engineering who is very interested in electric power. After much research the main issues switching to pure electric are range and power. If 54HP diesel is not enough you will need very large and potentially expensive electric motors to replace the diesel. Also unless you add a diesel generator it will be completely impractical to have enough batteries to motor more than 30-50 km.
Talk to your insurance company. With some 'recent' fires on boats some are dropping coverage on 'excessive' batteries. What is 'excessive' and if they see a difference between 'home installed' vs. 'factory installed' vs 'built that way' is all up in their ether of thought. I like your idea of a generator for charging/cruising if your solar does not keep up with a medium sized battery bank. Just remember that sailing does not always mean 'showing up on time'.
Redundancy - Parallel Diesel Hybrid I would put another option on the list - Parallel Diesel Hybrid. While full electric sounds great, for full time cruising and crossing oceans in variety of conditions to me sounds that Redundancy is a must. the hybrid systems you discuss are so called serial hybrid, which has its beauty but shortcomings as well (any failure in part of the system fails (almost) the entire system) The Parallel Diesel Electric Hybrid systems could give you the option to be green - in a combination with big battery bank you use the electric motor only, but in case of emergency or failure you can kick the diesel (to use it independently or in combination with electric motor on the same drive). With the above, your "underpowered" Yanmar will be more than enough, and to serve as e genset if/when needed. The main power will still be coming from the propeller on the main hull which is contradictory with the idea to have cat-like maneuverability with propellers in amas. Well, installing electric props on each ama with the purpose only of maneuvering in marinas could be the case I suspect ... or bow and stern trustors for axis-rotation functionality only. I do really enjoy your channel and looking forward to future episodes, especially the refit challenge. Admirations
I like the single engine, dual motor hybrid. You can still have air conditioning. I would recommend having an engine/generator large enough to drive it at normal cruise speed. For normal harbor and docking activity you can run without the engine. You might find yourself having to motor for longer periods than you like. Therefore, the diesel is here to stay.
Option 4 is best and technically easy , especially when considering the knowledge needed to fix and maintain Diesel engines . Any learning curve for fully electric systems will be short for you my friend. When sailing your props can be used as generators to charge the lithiums, the solar panel’s will be great for lights and cooking, etc. when in ports and a couple of wind generators when it’s windy and not sunny. I would bet you would only need a portable diesel/gas generator for a what if scenario .. and never have to use it. I think the true key to this system is lots of light weight lithium batteries which will still give you lots of extra room on board , taking out diesel tanks and motors.
Pomysł z silnikami elektrycznymi jest super. Przejście na same baterie jest bardzo kuszące ale nie widzę możliwości (miejsca) zamontowania 8kW paneli na waszej łodzi. Ja nie zaryzykował bym zdrowiem rodziny nagłym brakiem mocy w razie godziny "W". Raczej postawił bym na generator i panele. Musicie też pamiętać cały czas o sprawności zamontowanych akumulatorów. Serdecznie Pozdrawiam Marek.:) ps. W Szczecinie macie dobrego fachowca od akumulatorów, prowadzi kanał na YT " mrAkumularor " Zajmuje się też całymi zestawami paneli........ Zwróćcie się do niego, na pewno pomoże.
You forgot option 5, Beta Marine hybrid drive incorporating regen MJ Sailing have a video on the system perhaps check that out. Keep up the great videos and good luck with your choice
Hi I am finding this project series quite interesting. Many of the comments have mentioned some great you tube contacts for information. With the size of refit you are thinking about, contacting Nigel Calder or at least his affiliated companies would be a must for me. He is involved in a couple of companies that specialize in electric power. Not sure about the motors. Integral Is one. He is the electrical standard for marine applications. Project Atticus used a company he is in partner with. My 2 cents.
The answer probably depends on how much power you need to motor at a reasonable speed of say ~5 knots. Can the solar & batteries generate that for most of the daylight hours? Would be great to get away from fossil fuels, buying diesel and diesel engine maintenance! Good luck!
For the momment we think we can get around 5 kW on average during daylight. That maybe enough to power us at 2 knots. I am not sure. We're experimental in this area. One thing is for sure is that the solars will greatly extend the autonomy. Gas powered portable light generator mentioned here by few viewers can be another occasional use solution. I agree fully on diesel maintenance and fossil fuel comment. Thank you. Cheers. Bartek
I suggest to keep the Yanmar as installed. Replace the alternator with a higher capacity. Add the electric systems reduce the size of your fuel tank down to about 40 gallons. Upgrade the electric panels and battery banks. This will let you gain the experience with the electric drive systems and their power requirements. Later on you can decide adjust your panel and battery banks before you remove the Yanmar. Then you are more comfortable with your systems performance and mature in your knowledge of the system.
Bartek, I am not a specialist in this field. However, the advice that I would offer is for you to decide first if you want to go the ecological route or not. If the answer to that is “yes”, then you need to consult a specialist. I would recommend that you contact and talk to Dan from Sailing Uma. They have pretty much built their boat themselves and it is all electric. They have sailed that boat for 7 years and have been right into the Arctic circle with it. They are architects and are very detail-oriented. So if anyone, they are very up to date with the latest electric technology and I am sure would be only too pleased to help or to point you to the right people, particularly if you choose to go electric as this is close to their hearts.
Yes. It's definitely happening next. I have heard more about Uma's Dan than about anyone or anything else so far :). I do want to go down this route including the ability to adjust my lifestyle to fit the perhaps imperfect solution in the name of silence, renewability, simplicity., and maneuverability I know the simplicity might be not so obvious, but just for me personally it is far easier to work on electrical and electronics systems thane on diesel. For many others it may very well be the exact opposite. Thanks for the info. Cheers Joe, Bartek
@@sailoceans Bartek, make it simple: 1. keep the Yanmar engine since is already mounted and ready to go 1a. add large alternator to help charge batteries (see project atticus) or 1b get sail drives that can charge batteries while sailing (See sailing UMA) 3. get new electric motors , solar panels and lithium batteries 4. get rid of volvo engine to help pay for the upgrades. If all would work great and all the kinks are worked out then get rid of diesel engine and go full electric. Pozdrowienia z Chicago z trimarana Doriacada.
As an electrician, I would keep to diesel engines...follow the KISS theory. Have a failed shaft seal with diesel = motor still works, shaft seal failure with electric = catastrophic failure. Having an electrical system failure at sea may have potential to stop all electrical systems on boat, both propulsion and house loads. Plus a high voltage DC arc if you have a failure in a big plastic boat may not end well. Yes I do see the merit in electric drives, but I do see the simplicity of having a stock standard diesel that can be relied on for long term hours on hours of work.
Yes "Sailing Uma" would be a great benefit to look at or ask their opinion. Narrow your choices to two. I would definitely look at the cost benefit factor. If you don't motor that much would it pay off to spend the money effort and time. How much will you save on Diesel ? How long will you spend in the yard retrofitting propulsion ?
Looks like green energy is not working for "Sailing Uma" they recently bought a generator to recharge their batteries, earlier they admitted, that they always charge batteries in marinas. How would it be easier and cheaper to just leave the diesel !!! Oops, I almost forgot Y/T looks differently at the green ones. 🤣🤣🤣 ROFL
Option 3A - > 4 - Keep 3KW generator (get rid of current saildrive, engine & LARGE fuel tank). Install the 6-7 kW of solar, install smaller 100-150 gal diesel fuel tank for 3kW generator. Install large battery bank from option 4. Since you don;t "motor" much...even the electric drive shouldn't scare you when it comes to capacity ("motoring" for a long time..sinc eyour sailing history shows you don't motor much). Another option is to convert to shaft drive (Neel 51's after hull 31 have that option). It's a V-Drive. Go V-Drive with a parallel diesel/electric hybrid (diesel engine with a clutch and electric motor inline). Allows diesel propulsion (electric motor acts as a 7-9 kW generator), can disengage clutch and run electric only. Or, can use electric motor for torque added to diesel operation). HH/OC are offering this now.
My solution is full electric with an 4kW diesel generator. 30 kW electric motor and 20 kW LifePo4 battery. Cruising speed 5 knots/ 4h, boat is 43 feet an 13 tons ketch. ;)
Hi Thomas. Thank you for sharing this. 1.5 c is very high. What kind of batteries do you have that can handle this kind of load? Or is that you never ran the motor at full speed for any significant amount of time? Normally the safe assumption is 0,5-1 c maximum before the BMS would cutoff the batteries so they don't overheat at too high discharge rate. Another question: Is your 5 knots for 4 hours just from the batteries or is it with genset assist? Cheers. Bartek
How big is your tender? Could you have a tender big enough to do extended towing? I like the fact that electric drive units can capture the water speed to charge the batteries when sailing.
You want to go "Green"? Remember one of "Murphy's Laws". Electricity / electronics + marine environment = "Green Gunge". You must depend on hundreds, perhaps thousands of small electronic parts that cost less than US$1 not to fail VS. the of risk partial or total system failure if one resistor or capacitor decides to burn out or quit on you. And since those parts are largely contained in "black boxes" it is hard to determine which has failed or to repair / replace that part at sea. Approximately 750 watts = 1HP. So 7Kw of electricity = 9.3HP. Not going to go very far on that amount of solar panel charge capacity. You say your 54HP Yanmar is underpowered to push the boat into a strong head wind(amount of available power does not matter when going against adverse currents as many people believe). How will two much less powerful electric motors do in the same circumstances? Two 25HP electric motors would require 37.5Kw of available electric power. For a sustained time period that amount of output would require a HUGE battery bank. These numbers are all based on 100% efficiency in the system. Most sailboats moving under the power of their auxiliary engine are in 'displacement hull" mode. They are not going to plane like a high speed power boat. Generally maximum hull speed in those circumstances is 1.35 X the square root of the waterline length. In your case about 9.5 knots top speed(I'm guessing your WL is about 49 feet). BUT anytime you exceed 1 X the square root of the waterline length your fuel consumption dramatically increases. In your case that means ideal max cruise speed VS fuel consumption= 6~7 knots. Now comes the tricky part. For many sailboats moving at 0.8~1 X the square root of the waterline length requires about 50% or less of the main engines rated output. The rest of the engine's available power is used to go faster NOT MORE POWERFULLY. This is often a hard thing for people to conceive. Boat manufacturers love to sell high HP engines(larger profit margins). Engine manufacturers love to sell higher power engines(larger profit margins). People love to buy higher power engines because it gives them bragging rights. It used to be that sailboats had AUXILIARY engines. One HP per ton of displacement was considered adequate for this purpose. One HP per half ton displacement verged on being a motor sailor. Now it seems people want one HP per quarter ton displacement. Insanity. The problem is that all that "extra" HP cannot be used effectively. Because propellers turn too fast to be efficient, generating a lot of "slip". What you really want is POWER with a good balance of speed for better fuel efficiency. How do you get that balance? By turning a large diameter propeller at slow speed. The propeller shaft should turn at 1,000 RPM or less. You know those huge ocean going container ships? Most sailors have seen them at sea, sedately cruising along at 20+ knots. Do you know how fast their propellers turn? Depending on the ship's size between 60~75 revolutions per minute. Boggles the mind, doesn't it. Although I do not know, I would say that your current Yanmar has a 2:1 reduction gear and therein lies the problem. At one time Yanmar offered a choice of reduction gears for their inboard diesel engines, same price for all. When I built my 10,000lb, 30" sailboat I ordered a new Yanmar 2GM16, two cylinder 16HP engine for the boat. AND I ordered a 3.25:1 reduction gear on the engine. There was not one reduction gear like that in the entire USA at the time(30 years ago). The dealer had to remove the reduction unit and replace the gears inside with standard parts from Yanmar. The result? My boat would go 4 knots at 1,500 engine RPM and used one liter per hour of diesel fuel. Great for crossing the doldrums in the Pacific while powering for four days straight in dead flat calm for 6 gals a 24 hour day. The other benefit was being able to power straight into 6~8' trade wind seas and 15~20knot trade winds at 4~5 knots at 3,000 RPM engine speed which was still less than 1,000 RPM shaft speed. Oh yes my propeller was a 16" diameter X 10" pitch Martec folding cruising prop, so little to no drag while sailing. Perhaps your best all around solution would be to eliminate the saildrive(high maintenance item) and replace to with a 2.75:1 reduction gear and a straight shaft connected to a three blade folding / feathering prop. Give electric power a pass until portable fusion generators are available.
It's great that you are considering going electric/hybrid. You explained some good options and give the right arguments for them. I'm the Co-owner of STOK Electric, we're currently developing our own hybrid system for sailing yachts. Unfortunately we're not ready to offer a system to the market yet. But maybe it would be interesting for you to contact us to discuss your options a little and give some advice. Maybe it's even possible for you to come and visit our current project in Makkum The Netherlands (from the shots it looks like you're there). If you're interested you can contact us!
Have you thought about ocean volt with turnable saildrives you might be able to put two side by side in the mail hull, giving you redundecy and manuverability, but keeping your wire runs short from motor to battery banks. Also ocean vault has great Regen options then get a small Genset and a bunch of Tesla or Chevy volt batteries.
Go for the full electric option. With the new roof you have more space for solar panels. You can also use regen with Oceanvolt when you are sailing. When you remove the tank you have enough space for a big battery bank.
A large battery bank also means, that you need to keep them in groups.. Divide them so that one is operable without the other.. Group them in such a way, that you should be able to charge the batteries enough.. You will always have a back up to a backup!!
I have been designing a trimaran in my head for 50 years and it currently has an electric drive forward and stern. the forward drive would be easier to keep the boat on course in waves and the stern drive would work well for regeneration when sailing. How big theneed for continous operation generator is depends on your
I would add 10 kW electric pod motors to each of the amas to augment your existing Yanmar diesel in those 30 knot winds and for manoeuvring and cruising at low speeds, and add a 9 kW integral marine generator to your Yanmar via pulley to charge 60 kWh LFP batteries, and remove the genset. 6 kW of solar will only harvest about 30 kWh over a sunny summer day. If you discharge 60 kWh LFP to 50% (use 30 kWh), then your 6 kW of solar will charge it back to 100% on a sunny day. If you need more than 30 kWh in a sunny day you will have to run your diesel engine for propulsion or to charge the batteries.
Other than option 1, those are very expensive options. If you mount a generator motor to a big diesel it can also be used as a motor to power the boat. My suggestion would be to convert to a shaft drive with an electric motor/generator mounted on the shaft that can also be used for regenerating under sail. If you need more power for an hour or two you can use both the diesel and electric motor together. If you still want twin motors for turning in a marina, mount two large trolling motors on the transoms of the amas. They can flip up and not cause drag while underway.
Dan and Kika with Sailing Uma could help you folks out for sure! They've taken their Pearson 37 with electric conversion all the way from the Caribbean to the Arctic Circle. They are able to generate ⚡ from solar, wind and regen.
Hi for me it’s all electric and more planned sailing plus your doing it the right for the stuff u sail on and for the life that lives underneath you and your doing your bit for the big blue orb.pete
Check out Anteres Catamarans video about their hybrid system. They considered some things that you haven’t mentioned in this video that I think you will find useful.
with a family on board, safety and backup systems need to be your number one possibilty. Everything breaks, including electric, I would go with a backup diesel generator to supply power to your electric engines.
Each option sounds great and the decision depends on your plans. If, for example, in the next 12-24 months you will be sailing in the Mediterranean Sea, you can switch to full electric, although, hybrid options seem to be the most reasonable.
You forgot important one of the pros. , you will be having new contents to share which will attract hugs about of audiences, even supporters for such a project, good luck with your decision.
Bartek, I would go the way you are self reliant and don't have a worry about being towed or counting on anyone to help you. This day and age you have to watch out for yourselves. Go the way you can do it yourself and save some money for other things you can use for your growing boys. You already have many engines to decide on using and add the electric drives like you said. Just my opinion and I'm sure you will have all the experts chiming in with plenty of of the high tech talk they will give you. Have a good one.
How about a Hybrid system? Where you install the two electric engines with Lithium batt system you mentioned doing, but keep the diesel engine adding a larger alternator to it. So when the diesel running its charging the lithium batteries and you could put a clutch on it to engage its prop as backup propulsion.Not sure if I explained that well, but you can look at how Greenline Yachts does it.
We are heading in direction of a hybrid, but with a light DC genset, modest battery bank, and two electric motors. Keeping the 300 kg of the big diesel aboard would defeat the purpose for us. We would only add significant weight that way and we intend to keep it down. This boat is very sensitive to overloading and part of this refit is getting rid of all the unnecessary stuff. Thank you for your comment. Cheers mate. Bartek
Keep redundent options. Genset could pull you through. Sails complicate solar panel operations. Don't want to have to plot course just to maximize sun exp[osure. Are you getting regen capacity with those motors when sailing? That could extend your range and maximize battery charges. Lots of considerations...
Hey Guys! I have heard that there is the possibility to recharge the batteries under sail not just with the solar panels but also with the propeller. You haven't said anything about it in the video...?
Thinking a bit more about your project (not sure where my previous comments gone) the interesting option could be installation of two Oceanavolt 15 servoprops fitted off CL in main hull. From what you described, such option should check most, if not all the boxes. Pros: - off the shelf tested product - sufficient power (less than old VP, but more than your Yanmar)(2 sets because Oceanvolt does not have the bigger drives so far) - good manouvrability (two props off CL) - redundancy (two drive trains) - relatively low drag if needed (feathered props) - good power generation (servoprop) - increased endurance (motoring on single prop with low revs would bring you further) Cons: - extra cost (two units instead of single drive) - higher drag (comparing with single folding prop) - lower efficiencey (two small props instead of single bigger one) - extra composite works (closing exiting hull penetration and making two new ones) Most of these cons should not be show stoppers as long as you considered two drives anyway. Good luck, Wojciech
Thank you Wojtek. Those are all god points. However, OceanVolt has priced itself out of the consideration unfortunately. We agree that technically this is the best solution. Cheers. Bartek
Consider if you get caught in a storm and something happens where you need to stay on your own power for an extended period of time. Seems big Gen is the safest option.
I have been thinking about this topic also. I wish to repower my Beneteau 50. In a perfect world (and more advanced battery storage abilities) the decision would be pure electric and easy for all the reasons you stated. BUT I keep coming back to a night in Baddeck, Nova Scotia a few years ago when we were anchored during a 70 knot blow that required us to motor forward 14 hours to relieve the pressure on the anchor. Did we stupidly stay too long knowing that there would be wind? Hell yes, but the point is that we who voyage DO sometimes make mistakes and we need to have the solutions aboard if at all possible. For safety sake I am not going the #4 option no matter how romantic and green it makes me and some couch sailors feel. Remember that UMA took a gas generator with them to the attic. Smart. Safety of my family and boat, at this point in the technology, requires a diesel back up of some sort. Your option #2 does not supply the safety factor (2 motors but one source of power). I envy your 3 hulls for options! Acres of available solar is wonderful. My solution at this point is to go with a Beta 75hp Hybrid system and a ton of lithium batteries. The hybrid system will let me propel the boat for 2+ hours pure electric and then, if needed shift to diesel mode. It is not sexy, cutting edge or perfect by any means. But, for me, is gives the right balance of safety and green.
@SailOceans - question: if you go electric drives in the two floats (which for a trimaran is a very cool solution), do you know for sure that the two floats will stay in the water in rough sea?
@@jamesaron1967 I asked Bart about this exact thing. This is a very wide cruising vessel so it designed to stay flatter in the water. Pod drives would sit lower still in the water under the Amas.
Thinking about, for me the best option is n. 4 but keeping the 3kw generator and a smaller battery pack to reduce costs. But, If the battery is sponsored, go crazy and get a big one, just remember how heavy is a large Lifepo4 battery pack. For 15h run will be heavier than engine+gears+fuel etc
You might want to check in with Sailing Uma . They have been doing 100percent electric now for years including this year in the Arctic circle . They won't steer you wrong , I am a big fan
Outboards do get stolen and are not that fuel efficient though they do come in Diesel and four stroke versions. They are also a pain to work on at sea.
I would keep bigger diesel (Volvo penta) and add 2 electric drive! 1. Because all electric is not mature yet and high cost 2. Reliability and easy to repair diesel - if electricity fail - still you can go somewhere to repair it 3. Install 2x 48V 200A alternators to volvo penta - will give you ~18kW electric generator (there are plenty used car alternators (48V) available for ~200€) 4. install 2x electric drive ~15kW each 5. Battery for the moment 4x 100Ah @48V give you ~20kWh energy - make sure there are LiFeSO4 not tesla like LiOn because those are flammable - last yest 100Ah cost arround 3k€ now 1,5k! 6. Make sure you buy solar hybrid inverter and if possible solar optimizer to each solar panel For the 1-2 year of usage finally you can upgrade battery and replace diesel drive to generator
Go electric without a gen-set. I've heard that the newest Ocean Volt has incredible re-gen capabilities. With the correct amount of batteries and solar panels, you will never need a generator and you will be able to cross oceans without hoisting your sails. Go 100% electric except for your outboard for your dinghy and BBQ. I think the best way to go for fuel for your BBQ is white gas but am not 100% sure on that just yet. I like the idea of an Ocean Volt shaft driven set up verses the inboard/ outboard set up better but that means that you will have to do a lot of modification. I'm not sure if you saw my comment on your last video but you should really read it because I gave you a lot of very helpful tips. If you go through the Panama Canal than just put an outboard on the transom and away you go without any issues. You can install a mounting bracket that can slide into position when needed and can also store it away when not in use. You can use your dinghy outboard for that. Get sponsorships on the Ocean Volt as well as anything else you might need. Sailing UMA just installed a brand new Ocean Volt.
Yes Uma has loads of experience with this and has done a ton of sailing without any diesel engine. They only recently added a small generator as backup for their sail up into the Arctic circle where limited sun on their small solar setup and lack of shore power meant they needed augment the batteries for the sake of speed. But they probably have less than a kW of solar and with your boat you have room for loads of solar, batteries, a wind turbine, and with two Ocean Volt drives well over a kW of regen when under sail - especially with the higher speeds of a trimaran. Looking forward to seeing what you go with and happy that all electric is increasingly coming up as an option
A couple of things to consider. Lightening might put both your electric drives out. If you have a huge battery bank you need to top it up in reasonable time. You were talking about 15hrs at say 15kwh needs 225kwh of storage. 6kw of solar = 37.5hrs = 7.5 GOOD days of sunshine. Because your motoring time is so low, I would go electric with a 10kva generator, you can probably do 5kn with 10kva unless your pushing in to it but then you will probably sail. If you know you have a long way to go, start the generator at the start. A good sized battery bank.
What about Beta Marine Parallel-Hybrid Diesel-Electric engine. I think they are Kubota based, so plenty of parts worldwide. It seems to me if you ever get in a big storm for a long period of time, that you can drop sails and motor. I think I would want the ability to run for 24-72 hours, so diesel would work in a pinch. Electric the rest of the time. Win win
Any of the options will result in compromise. Full electric is the only interesting option from a youtube perspective. Would it be possible to reserve space to hire /drop-in a genset for the few occasions you require long range?
Just wondering if you decided on your engine configuration yet? If not have you seen the new HH catamaran hybrid drive system? You could use your existing Volvo in the configuration, do large solar and batteries, reduce fuel tank size and remove generator for weight. By adding large alternators to the Volvo it would act as both back-up engine and generator. Just something to think about; love the channel!
@@sailoceans yer for me if I'm doing crossings and stuff and we have bad weather for days so no solar and can't use sails I'd want the redundancy of a generator for my familys safety thats my thinking great luck love the vids chur chur from tauranga new Zealand 🇳🇿
If I were you, I'd speak to Dan and Kika on SV Uma and get some information on their 'Re-gen Sail Drive' and motor. Your idea of having a drive unit in each of the outer hulls is a good idea. So, the question is, do you keep the main diesel engine and use it as a generator, or do you buy a bigger genset and have a large battery bank as well, which can also be charged by a good amount of solar, PLUS the power generated by the sail drive regen system.
Hi my friends even though I love the idea of electric concept due to sustainability etc... I would install the Volvo back again, because of safety issues. The diesel once started runs also without electric power even in a worst thunderstorm and when already water is in the boat, this is the situation we all dont want and where batteries give up but the diesel still runs, also you can use the diesel to pump water out of the boat... Further more you said that you are using it very minimal. Minimal usage = minimal polution. When you put all the points in the basket it is at the end in my opinion the best and most importantly the safest solution. Boating is different compared to car, hence I would not go electric.
There are also diesel/propane generators. You could remove the diesel tank, insert propane tank (which is compressed and takes a lot less space) and in emergencies you could manually connect diesel canisters if propane was depleted in a remote area with only diesel, etc.
Propane is exactly what we want to get rid of. And we are hoping to achieve near 100% solar sustainability for house needs. Only the main propulsion is going to remain diesel for the time being. Cheers. Bartek
For what I understand of electric drive i would go with larger batteries banks a generators maybe a little bigger that what you have a large solar panel bank, keep your diesel tank keep it low when around civilization and fill as you need .unfortunately batteries are not quite there yet. And also you can look at other options for changing like more quiet wind generators etc....
Hi, good idea option 3c go electric with 20kW gen set and 3kW backup as emergency. So generally you can stay on solar and when necessary high charge by 20kw gen set to keep you move fwd. Some el motors from el car would be an option to convert for the marine use / inverter and controls issues, good luck
Will there be cavitation of the props if they are on the amas? What about drag when sailing? Like the redundancy of two engines.. Maybe put them both on main Hull so no loss of power due to cavitation?
Cavitation under power ? Thats a function of the prop spinning too fast for the water passing over it. The props can be folding or servo type ..ie to a fully reversible position. Sailing Uma have gone from a folding set up to a servo prop with regen. Do you mean drag when under sail ? Theres also the possibility of regenerative charging under full sailing conditions depending on the motor design but the power of the motors shouldn't be an issue .. as a motor the size of a small suitcase and liftable by hand can produce huge amounts of power and torque for years.
@@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665 Cavitation as in when the amas pull up out of the water due to the force of the wind on the boat.. there is a slight tilt even for trimaran's when the wind hits one side and the other side tilts up out of the water then there will be cavitation if they have the props on and lose power on that side.. or even prop coming totally out of the water just depends on how much wind force is hitting the boat at that time and quite frankly if this is in a emergency situation like steering out of a difficult area or a prop coming out of the water at all is not a good thing as you would lose half you thrust power or a percentage depending on how much the prop came out of the water and if there was cavitation... just not sure putting the props on the amas is a good idea as the tilt of the boat will affect the efficiency of the props depending on the proximity to the waters surface... i would not want my family and myself to rely on props that could potentially come out of the water in a strong wind and lose thrust on one side of the boat... disastrous in a storm or high current indeed...
@@ThoughtfulWander I see your point i did ask him about the hulls flying but as this is a wide cruising vessel they dont lift that far ..if he was worried about not being able to sail safely he would have dropped his sails anyway and would be running on motors .. you see.. also if he suddenly needed to turn into the wind it would be the down ama in the water anyway....turning the other way he would drop the lifted ama in the action or turning away. The only other point is the positioning of the props under the amas and why the need to be that far forward.🤔👍🏻
@@ThoughtfulWander I think they are following Polish testing techniques.. .😉 Trouble is This might be the first larger Trimaran to go down this route. I would ask a few questions at the school of maritime studies.. get someone to run some of the numbers and look at the hulls behaviour under power and sail given any changes. Nice project paper for a post graduate.
My calculations (and I am not an expert), indicate that there in not enough space on a cat/tri for sufficient solar panels to power continuous operation on an electric boat. While solar panels are increasing in efficiency, they are improving only incrementally. Thus with electric drive, your battery bank will be discharging during continuous operation as 7kw solar will not be sufficient to recharge the batteries - this is both for now, and into the medium term future. Thus, even with an obesely large battery bank, eventually the bank will discharge during continuous operation. Interestingly, batteries are increasing in efficiency and price at a spectacular rate. Analysing how cars are increasing their battery size, it is not inconceivable that an electric boat could soon have a 80-100kwh battery bank, and that battery bank would economic. So the central question is how long are you willing to accept being becalmed (ie waiting for the solar to recharge the batteries). In the old days this was considered part of the sailing experience. But now becalmed is both inconvenient, and considered unsafe and risky. Personally, I like your idea of a small 3kw generator. However, having two small 3kw generators would provide both redundancy and additional power. It is also important that your electric motors have regeneration. I can imagine that you will end up with 24kwh - 40kwh of battery storage, together with 7kw of solar, and two separate (and therefore redundant) power control systems. However with a system such as this, the chances of being becalmed on long ocean crossings, would be very high. Therefore it would seem prudent to carry two small 3kw fossil fuel generators (of a brand that can be repaired anywhere in the world), to provide redundancy and range extension. For island hopping and coastal cruising I can imagine the generators being unnecessary
All correct . That's why we are adding a 12 kW or so genset straight to 48DC for those rare occasions and emergencies. Thanks for your insight. Cheers. Bartek
Have you spoken to Sailing Uma? They have been fully electric for some time now but are continuously upgrading things to increase regen over recent months. I assume the logic is that better regen means longer continuous sail possibilities. Sorry if I am repeating things you already know
Thanks. Yes, we know their setup. Ours based on OV would be double the 15 ServoProp, but unfortunately OV is out of our range financially. Cheers. Bartek
Fully autonomous electric. Less moving parts, quiet and zero cost and maintenance. Double your planned initial battery bank size and add wind generator..
Redundancies yet follow cautious optimism send that you have the option of diesel use the Volvo 75 as your power plant conversion the Yamaha 15 to a generator get some batteries and slowly transitioning into electric in the end it’s still your call
If you go full solar you really do need to keep a generator on hand for adverse conditions. Don't go with flex solar panels. Some cheaper panels outperform more expensive ones so start looking at independent tests of the different panels. When figuring costs factor in that the technology is improving every year so don't factor costs over 10 or 20 years, more like 5-10. You can always sell older equipment to get back a few dollars if you keep it all well maintained. It's not really a good do-it-yourself project to install a full electric system so unless you have someone who has been working in the field for a good number of years to stand over your shoulder and tell you what to do, leave it to the pros. If this were a camper van you were turning electric it would be a different matter but mistakes installing a new system in a boat could cost you your boat or worse, your lives. Have you checked into insurance costs for the different changes? That could affect your decision.
Electric motors in outer hulls with Generator backup to charge batteries. Will the E motors to be able to regenerate batteries when sailing? Max motor design should be; the best current against you with no wind. This is the emergency end of the spectrum for the motors speed. The minimum you need is to get you into harbour(depends on you draft, weight etc and min hp to move sailboat) The generator should be large enough to motor at (whatever your max is) and still charge up the household load. As stated in below comments, the 2 E motors give you the best maneuverability. Are propellers straightlined to motor or L Drive? cost of installing new E motor system on outer hulls vs. installing old 75 HP motor in central hull. Alot is going to depend on the household load and future add on to the household load. Fridge, Freezer, Stove, oven, washer, dryer, microwave, AC/heaters, water makers as your family grows . Not to mention electronics (computers, cameras, and phones). Also boat operating loads for navigation, lights, radios, radars etc. An increase in solar panels and batteries will happen, just get the minimum now and add to it in future expansion. So any current E using equipment and addons that require electrical will have to be taken into account. (you need to know voltage and daily consumption of electricity for all these things). Also whether E is DC or AC and the voltage required for all equipment. The more converters the more you waste energy. if you have systems that run on DC, 12, 24, 48 or 96 volts. AC is either 120/220. Plan to minimize types of converters. Type of batteries and what voltage they are charged to? Check out the Delos, sailing uma, and Sailing Ruby rose channels. Look at where you are at for Electricity, batteries and see where you want to go with what you want in the future. Check out the Sunreef website, ship yard in Gdansk, their eco sail boats. Are your batteries above the waterline? What precautions are taken if they are below and water floods the space? Are you looking for more performance by saving weight? If you remove weight what are your options to lower your center of gravity to make the sailboat more stable?
On a cat you have enough surface to add lots of solar panels. Solar+regen+electric drive is the only smart solution! Think about the money you will not be wasting on diesel, oil and maintenance.
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Go hybrid its better to have and not need than to need and not have as far as diesel goes sell both diesel engines and the generator change to all electric
buy a diesel electric generator that can more than take care of your electric needs not a diesel engine to run your boat but makes enough electric power to run your systems and electric motors small and light weight if possible also talk to the Redflow battery company you get a free trial for their new flow batteries they could greatly improve your real battery needs at reduced cost
sorry you may get a free trial they are looking to enter new markets
@@jdhuff1047
What happens when the electric drives aren't powerful enough when caught in severe conditions ? When you have glass smooth sea conditions and no wind, for perspective I was able to use a Mercury 3.3 hp 2 stroke outboard on the back of the dinghy, to power a very heavy bilge keel yacht at over 5 knots for a bit over 40 miles, only put 4 litres in the tank refilling to complete the journey. On the other extreme, I've been in a Force 10 plus Storm for over 3 days with no sunshine - the only time I've been Seasick but the engine was powerful enough to keep us heading in the right direction and got us through it. "Wouldn't it be nice if" Virtue Signalling has no place in a Marine Environment where backups of Backups tend to be the only Sensible Option, and you have to have a plan for when more than one thing at a time Fails. My last boat had enough power in the diesel engine to power me out of a Tidal Rip Wreckers led us into , but didn't have enough power in astern to avoid rocks we'd been pushed towards. Plus the Marine Environment is very hard on everything, and electric motors can't make themselves immune from that like anything else can they? In wear abd tear terms, Marine is 10 times worse than Land. Diesels thrive on being worked, left idle is bad for them, and respond to clean oil, clean fuel, and clean air with regular servicing and tlc. Treated properly, on land a million miles is not uncommon. so at 10 to 1, a hundred thousand miles equivalent should be possible at sea. Treat them badly, and diesels will let you down. Too many liveaboards have awful state engine oil when they change it, and don't even change impellers frequently enough. Be as reliable for your engine and transmission, as you want your engine and transmission to be for you. 👍
I don`t recall the boat rebuild site but he used a small diesel that could stand on its own and could move the boat no real change there but it has twin generators mounted that can be used to run your electric prop with power enough to run all ships systems as well you mount the prop differently, the regen from this type they are more common i don`t remember the names will generate electric power paired with solar panels , windmills and good batteries now you have a system that should meet your needs with sound backup still make power and motion with the diesel or batteries and can use the diesel to charge the batteries as for the rocks some times the diesel can`t keep you off the rocks twin props will help with that but the sea is a bad bitch and she just might slap your ass down anyway but in this case i would put in bow thrusters fore and aft i think that could help a lot keeping you off the rocks and more my dream boat is a trimaran
I would sell the yanmar and rebuild the Volvo penta and put it back in, this will give you the power to move in stormy weather, and through the Panama Canal like you said. After reinstalling the Volvo penta put a large alternator on the engine to charge your batteries along with your solar. You could possible get rid of the generator so you can have more room for batteries or fuel. Take a look at project aticus as they just did an alternator upgrade project and documented it. Sailing Ruby Rose is also not putting a generator in there new Boat and is using an upgraded alternator on there engines and solar panels to charge their batteries. Sailing Ruby Rose is going to be a catamaran so they will have 2 engines. Good luck with your decision, I enjoy watching the videos it's great information.
That's what we did. :) Cheers.
A great discussion here!
As a fellow airline pilot and boater with critical thinking skills, here are my thoughts:
1. The real world is unforgiving. Living on board with your family you must have a reliable backup propulsion! Reliability!
2. Don’t experiment with unproven electric technology! No one has done exactly what your about to do. Safety!
My suggestion is thus:
Have a single large Diesel engine with a large output alternator. Maybe even a straight shaft modification. Add two bow thrusters for docking. No generator and as much solar as you can afford or have space.
Watch Sailing Uma and their issues with all electric, they spend a lot of time going from shore power to shore power and carry a portable Honda generator. Again, the real world is unforgivable!
Love your channel, good luck!
Sailing uma are currently sailing north of the Artic circle at the moment its going into six months of night so they will have scarpered south and as they were at the South hampton boat show again they will be aiming like Barts family staying out of cold dark climbs other than perhaps summer forays or returning to home to Poland if needed at an unfavourable time of year.
Though an early silent yatch MV. and the trial prototype the designer and his familly lived on both crossed oceans in winter without having any sails and still having generator fuel left in their tanks .
The Early production one actually crossed the Atlantic in Feb against headwinds to the USA with a full crew and using all the kit at about 6- 10knots. They used the generator in part because they also wanted to get there for a boat show.
There are dozens of electric ferries working on Giant European lakes and rivers now and between islands in the Nordic countries.
The motors they use on silent yatch's were originally developed for driving buses round European cities. In a boat they can be easily water cooled by a simple PEX plastic coil jacket but so it could for the high output alternators which would increase their efficiency. Without great cost or corrosion issues.🤔
a lot of boaters out there have only diesel and no backup electric or diesel. so why talk about back up propolsion power with electric drive? electric power has been around longer than diesel, i believe, so it's hardly not proven.
@@iainlyall6475 I am not following your response.
The issue is about backup power for when things go wrong, like no wind or no sunshine and no shore power.
This discussion is about electricity needs and charging batteries, how to get enough reliable power.
I am basically saying that our current electric propulsion technology is not there yet. There’s not enough electricity to run this boat for this family’s usage in a safe or reliable way for their lifestyle. Unless they go primitive without most modern conveniences.
it was in reply to those that think E boaters need to always have a back up engine.
We just recently installed a new 50 hp Nanni on our 14m yacht to replace a worn out 40hp perkins. We looked into electric, but decided it was not practical in the places we sail. In Tasmania we can go weeks without seeing the sun much, and there are strong tides, rough water, strong and variable winds to deal with. We needed a motor that was absolutely reliable and could be run any time for as long as needed. I would have loved to go electric, I think it would be a possible option if we were in more tropical waters
Perkins never wear out ... just failed maintenance. Mine is 50 years old and with new parts it's better than a new engine.
Agree with the last couple of comments. UMA has an electric engine which recharges the batteries when under sail - it changes from an engine to a hydro-generator with big amperage at reasonable sailing speeds. A lot of catamaran sailors use only one engine while under power. So maybe you can do that and use the second engine as a generator.
If you do decide on two electric engines, I suggest that you look into using the props to regenerate power into your batteries while you’re sailing..
Absolutely. That's the idea :)
option 4 with the small genset and the battery setup with solar is the best options long term and make sure you use the Victron inverter system, Sailing UMA would be a good connect with them, also Ran sailing for the Batteries. Don't do any of the other options as this will change the way you live. life will be much better.
That's where I am leaning. I still need to talk to Uma. They are supposedly converting back to diesel, but that may be because they are mono, with limited solar space and cruising high latitudes. Cheers John. Bartek
Absolutely.. But, load your boat with Lithium batteries.. Your props can become the power generators. Sailing Uma did it.. Now, you have twice the power, as you have two hulls... Well, there is a new technology of shooting a kite to drive the boat. I suggest to add at the forward... @JohnCorrenti mentioned one best..
@@SGudur I seen the kite but since they are a sail boat I don’t see the need as the kite is electric Powered boats without masts.
@@correntij Aah, My bad, I didn't know that.. Just watched NautiStyles Ep yesterday.. They were touring a Full Elec Cat.. Just found some random videos.. Let me dig into it.. Thank you so much for the quick response.. :-)
I simply love the way sailors assist each other.. They are more bigger than the people on land!! Loads of love to you all..
Stay with a multi fuel diesel. Sustainability and recyclability with LiPo batteries still make me nervous. Also. Keep your generator(s) or get higher output. Does your vessel have AC and heat? Will your system be able to sustain that efficiently under a 100% whilst using it? Hot water is necessary. Will it keep a good hot water system or will you go use on demand natural gas?
You may want to think about it a little differently. Just like with flying and being a pilot, when your primary system fails what is your backup plan? This is why you have 2 mags on the engine and 2 radios, and 2 yokes. Same as your reasoning for 2 electric motors on the boat. Consider that 100% electric is your primary system. The primary system components would be sails, solar, wind turbine, large battery bank, and electric motors. Then your consideration is only about backup. It could be a compromise of having a 7kw generator and small diesel tank for the rare occasions that you need it. You clearly have the room for it. You then think about it as an investment in an insurance policy. Down the road if you never use it and/or technology has advanced to the point that it becomes unnecessary then you get rid of the insurance policy. If you look at the companies building all electric yachts, I believe they are building in generators so that they can limp along to safety in case of emergency.
As you still have young kids, I personally would go with the hybrid option. Gaining of "electrical knowledge" by practice and experience seems to be the most compelling goal at this stage. In a couple of years option 4 would become viable, but then coupled with decent experience, practice and knowledge.
For now: dual battery bank + solar (integrated with the new overhang) + twin electric propellers alongside current diesel engine + generator. The diesel engine and generator can be phased out in a couple of years with dual generators (one generator per electric propeller).
Do note: The middle section later on can be used as the 'main' battery bank supplemented with the battery banks on either side. In his way you will have the perfect weight distribution. The middle section can also be converted into a third or even upgraded into the 'main' electric propeller in due time.
Therefore option 5 seems to be an option after typing the above: solar + triple electric propellers. One battery bank and generator per propeller.
I understand that you only have one engine now. If that one engine fails, the rest will fail in cascade as well. Therefore, you will still need to have the generator to keep the current electronics working.
❤️ option 4. You can always use your dingy to push you through the Panama Canal. Maybe add hydro generator or two to help charge at night.
Only works if you have wind to sail and useless when at anchor or doing low knots .. potentially only does what re gen might do on electric motors.
@@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665 Of course.
Hi guys!
I am very much moved by the number and the depth of comments that contain a lot of useful suggestions, recommendations, and your own experiences. Thank you so much! I feel obligated to answer you all. It is impossible for me to answer everyone by replying to each comment, because it would take me weeks to do it properly. I will take my best shot at answering all the reoccurring questions and comment on reoccurring issues raised. So first let me clear up few most important details:
We now have 2,3 kW of solar panels on the roof that produce just about 10 kWh per day as long as we don’t sail. The sails generate shadow causing this production to fall about 40% on average (here obviously electric motors with regeneration capability could offset that loss).
The minimum proposed new setup will generate 20-30 kWh a day, while our house needs are about 10 if we are in an all-out luxury mode. This will increase by about 1 kWh once we switch to induction cooking from propane. So, let’s say our house needs will be about 11-12 kWh. The rest remains available to recharge the motor banks and/or supplement propulsion real-time reducing the discharge rate on the motor banks.
It is conceivable that we may expand the solar generation to the point where we would be able to slowly motor just from the solar power. That is somewhat experimental until we actually put the boat in the water and measure the power draw at given speed and sea/wind conditions. I am being optimistic because the boat is very light and in calm conditions can move very efficiently through the water, with minimal drag at low speeds let’s say under 5 knots.
We do not want to remain with the big diesel onboard, while adding large battery bank and electric motors as this adds significant weight and in case of our narrow hulls the boat sinks quick under extra load degrading the performance significantly.
We are NOT considering a high voltage system. Currently 48 V DC is all that is on the table. That is something you can touch without harm (well unless you completely wet than you get a decent tickle).
Yes, we are talking with OceanVolt about their ServoProp among others. Their system seems to offer the most significant region capability. With our cruising speeds we are looking at upwards of 2 kW non-stop while sailing. That’s 3-4 hours of driving the electric motors at full speed after 24 hours of sailing.
The latest under consideration is a 48 DC gasoline portable 7,5 kW portable genset for occasional use. It weighs around 70 kg. About a quarter of the current diesel or about a half of the similar sized diesel genset. Medium sized diesel genset is also under consideration despite the weight. The pros are safety, and much better integration.
We are not considering a battery bank that allows 15 hour autonomy. That would be enormous cost and weight. I think we will end up with 2-4 hours autonomy at full speed. At half speed we’re talking 3 times as long or more. Then there are the solars that are drastically increasing the autonomy. Then there are hardly ever the calms with such light winds that we could not sail at least a bit. But for those rare occasions and for the rare need to power against a local storm we would seriously want at least some sort of genset. Normally in macro situations we positions our boat to weather systems in such a way as to use the lows to our advantage rather than getting pummeled. That’s sort the beauty of the latest weather models and routing capabilities from Predictwind coupled our more than average sailboat cruising speed. Of course that applies to long oceanic legs where we are not limited in our options by a landmass.
Electric motors present the very high torque even at lowest RPM and do not give us the same top speed as diesel. But this is exactly what we are after. We are after being able to power through a local storm against gusty winds rather than go high speed for hours. That we can do much better while sailing. OceanVolt gave us an estimate that the torque and thrust produced by 2 x 15 kW Servoprop drives will equal approximately to an single 80-90 HP diesel in terms of torque. So effectively it should be better for what we need than either of the two diesels we have available. They also said the max speed will not be there . But I hardly see a need to go faster than 5-6 knots under power. Currently top speed at full power, calm conditions with the existing 54 HP Yanmar is about 8+ knots.
Thank you again for inspiration to looking into few more options and aspects of this hard choice that we gonna have to live with for the next few year and as I hope we will want to live with for the rest of the sailing life.
Cheers guys and thank you so much for getting involved so seriously. It’s very helpful.
Bartek
Bartec have you looked at the Dutch Vetus electrical systems....
wind turbine for charging
or 1 plus 4 uprade your alternator remove your genset
What an opportunity!
Forget the Panama scenario - hire a generator just for that occasion.
LiFePO4 batteries are very safe if managed well.
In my experience you don't want to charge them up to the manufacturers 3.65V per cell - you can add lifecycles and safety by keeping each cell between 3.0V to 3.45V and only lose about 5% capacity.
A small generator can be your absolute last resort and could probably maintain 4-5 knots on it's own.
Have you looked at TEMA?
They make very high quality electric drives and are based in Croatia.
In option 4, you could choose electic motor able to work reverse and would work as hydrogenerators when you are under sails
Option 3B for me, larger generator with a battery bank. Option 4, as you've mentioned, is quite risky as you would need to have a large battery bank and that will costs a lot of money. Battery and solar panel tech is not there yet to have the capacity to give peace of mind. Plus, you will always have sth hanging over your head range anxiety.
larger(diesel) generator with a battery bank and (5000$)electric motor, is that make sense to U ? how about just nice diesel ?
The generator should be enuf to both power and charge at the same time plus, maybe, 20%. The buffer is dependent on how long you want to run the generator.
I like the idea of going green mated with.... say.... a medium sized genset for backup.
My choice would be to build in max performance in case of emergencies, sickness, running away from storms etc. I would put the volvo engine back in as a generator, have two electric drives and maybe add to your battery bank. If you are sailing mainly in warmer climates you would have good solar so you would not need to run the volvo much as a generator so boat would be quiet most of the time. However if you needed to get somewhere quick you have the option to run the volvo more often. This option gives good safety in terms of speed if you need it, quiet running most of the time and your air conditioners can be run non-stop when needed.. A good compromise in weight too. Best wishes.
Hi Folks,
I am just waiting for a delivery so good time to do a detail response.
The thing you are doing is not easy. I was going trough the same exercise and COVID hit. Being in Australia and my Catamaran in France and the Australian quarantine laws are restrictive. So basically getting out was easy getting back not so. So all on hold until next European summer. Here is what I have learned and how you may approach it.
Its about the propulsion architecture and marine institutes have done some research on this matter and to date cost benefits are still questionable. However if done right then your autonomy is only limited by food or access to food supply.
The best way is to draw a diagram of it. At the centre of the system is the battery bank. I do not know what your boat weights but you are probably looking at 20-40kwh pack. This is the focal point and all your equipment will run from that. Both house loads and propulsion. You can eliminate propane and all the hassles you have with it and getting it refilled.
Draw a diagram and on the top put all the house loads, fridge, cooking, AC, navigation equipment, watermarked, washing machine. Split it what can run on 12/24 or 240 volts. Once you have decide where the inverters will go and DC to DC conversion.
On the other side list all the inputs into the battery bank. Solar, wind generators AC/DC generator, hydro generator.
Finally the drive system, one or two motors. Always be aware of cable lengths.
Battery Bank. The battery chemistry is very much set for the price / performance / longevity / safety / cycling and that is LIFPO4. Do you have one battery bank or split them in two. For easier battery management its advisable to have one large bank, but a case can be made for both. Another is do you run your house 12/24 loads from main bank vie dc-dc or have the dc-dc charge a separate house battery. For me now dc-dc is best. Few years back maybe not.
Voltage. Low voltage 48V DC or higher. 48V DC s much safer and enables normal people to work on the system. Soon as you go higher then you need licenced electricians etc. Also 48V DC you can purchase of the shelf. Same applies to 230/240 DC to AC inverters for house loads. Only issue is that 48V DC battery banks can be limited to how much output you can get out to drive the propulsion motors. When I was doing my planning some 2 years ago it was 15KW motors, but now have read that 30KW motor solutions are possible. So if you can getaway with it have a 48V battery bank and drive everything of it.
Motors. AC DC Saildrive, shaft, pod. They all have their pros and cons. The number one factor you should consider is hydro generation. How much power can you get into the battery bank when sailing. I think your trimaran would be fast so to you could get heaps of power into you banks and recharge them very quickly. Will also need tolook the abilty to feather the props to stop battery overcharging or dump resistors. As for location I would keep them both in the main hull due to cabling issue. If you have 15KW motor in an ama in a 48V system you could be looking at well over 300 amps running from battery to motor. Lot of current and current hates bends etc in cables. Overheating, resistance hot spots will be almost impossible to avoid in cables that long. Also where do you put the Inverter for motors, near the motor and run a long DC cable or near battery bank. One fact 1KW electric motors is not equal to 1KW diesel engine and ratios of 2 or more to 1 are regularly quoted. That does tell the true story as electric motors have instant torque and will be better at low medium speeds and accelerations. Diesel will make up the difference up high or last 1 and a bit knots, but how often do you run a marine diesel at high revs.
Solar Panels. Stay away from the thin walk on type. Had them, they over heat burn out and produce far less power. (not just my opinion) I had them got rid of them and on my catamaran I have 4 Sunpower and produce so much more. Multiples times more. So stay with glass ones and have them raised from the deck so cooling air goes under them. You might have to build a lightweight frames for them but you would need far less of them. Another thing have a separate MPPT controller for each panel. Normally people wire them up, one panel goes down to 30 percent the whole bank goes down as well. There are now panels with a micro inverter in each, which would be perfect, just do not know if they are suitable for a marine environment.
Generator. AC / DC. No brainer in this, if you adopt central battery bank then a DC generator is perfect as it is used just to top up battery. DC generators are far lighter. I was looking at 20KW polar power set and that was only about 180kg in weight. A 20KW AC generator was 400 to nearly 600kg. My 9KW AC Onan is just over 300kg, with mounting brackets etc. But that would apply for the DC generator but would be less. If you want to find out more look at Polar Power, they have some good white papers and diagrams to get the though process going. many other research documents are on the same page, but like all vendor documents. Do your research. Also you are talking about a big solar panel bank some 6KW, and get the hydro generator worked out you might need smaller. BTW linking an AC / DC generator directly to propulsion motors is not efficient as its hard to line up the most efficient output of the generators to what the propulsion motors need. When charging the battery bank the DC generator goes to the most efficient rev range and dumps the electricity in regardless of what the propulsion motors need.
BTW I have 30 years in High Tech industry and build telecommunications and internet networks around the world. Power deliver, backup, redundancy are key. So if you were to ask me how would I do it If I was going electric / hybrid. All the experience over the years is that 80 - 90 percent of faults is the cabling and connections so taking that into mind and I am also assuming your bout is 10-15 tones fully loaded.
In the main hull I would put the DC Generator, then behind the battery bank and then probably 2 48 volt electric sail drives that can feather props. The battery compartment would house the MPPT, dc to dc etc equipment along with the safety switch's, breakers. The motor inverters I would put as close to them. That will keep your system tight, cable distances / length short and will far easy to maintain and diagnose. Imagine doing diagnoses where your battery banks etc are in the main hull and motor in the ama. Plus your boat looks really wide, what rudder forces would you need to keep the boat straight when running on one motor. As for fuel tank, cut the size in half and save 300 kg, house battery banks another 100- 200 kg. But keep the generator starter battery separate, even if some can be starter by the DC generator acting as a starter using the main bank.
If you want easy pivoting just put a bow thruster in.
Hope this helps and gets the though process going. It will not be cheap. And on a final note, keep you manufactures numbers small. So if you can get battery bank, inverters , chargers, shunts, dc bars from one manufactures great, or as few as possible. Interoperability is the issue and falls into the 80-90 percent, connection problems.
Full electric, forget it, not until we get the battery chemistry density a lot higher.
PS enjoy your cold winter :-(
Thank you for this in depth analysis. Lots of good points I agree on. I am planning to separate the banks into two. Separate bank for each motor. One of the big reasons to go with this conversion is to gain redundancy. In case if one side/motor fails for any reason, we still have a fully independent system on the other side to be able to limp to the nearest anchorage and figure out where the problem is. I am not sure what you mean by inverters for the motors. Please let me know. Perhaps I am not seeing something. Cheers mate and thank you for sharing this much infor with us.
B
@@sailoceans Hi, What I meant to say and was not clear. It's is all dependent on what voltage your battery bank you will be using. Also the propulsion motors location. Was not sure if they would be in the amas. My recommendation would have been in the main hull. If it is a high voltage system then you do not want to run high voltage DC cables though the boat. So in that case your inverters for the motors would be best put as close to the High voltage DC source which is the battery bank. And then run AC current to them. You want to keep the high voltage DC current cable runs as short as possible. Have a look or google DC arc faults. They have been thousands of house solar systems catching fires because of that. Yes there are solutions to limit the danger but best to avoid any long high voltage DC connection and cabling. Especially marine environments that just seems to find a way to screw up electronics and electrical systems. Just a questions, your propulsion motors will be AC?
While I am here another thing is your solar installation, you mentioned it will be a large installation, I have a 10kw solar system in my house and in each panel has a micro inverter embedded, (enphase) so DC to 230 V AC is done at the panel, then linked in parallel. So if one panel fails or is shaded it does not effect any of the others. Do not know if these are suitable for yachts yet. My are Sunpower AC Modules panels. I did it for system output and stop any DC fires as there have been 100's of solar panel fires in Australia due to DC arc.
So on solar, stay away from the walk on and go to glass, make the frames for them, and if mico inverters are not suitable for a yacht, have separate mppt controllers for each. You have plenty of space for them on you trimaran.
Keep well
Mick
A comment from someone with a degree in electrical engineering who is very interested in electric power. After much research the main issues switching to pure electric are range and power. If 54HP diesel is not enough you will need very large and potentially expensive electric motors to replace the diesel. Also unless you add a diesel generator it will be completely impractical to have enough batteries to motor more than 30-50 km.
Talk to your insurance company. With some 'recent' fires on boats some are dropping coverage on 'excessive' batteries. What is 'excessive' and if they see a difference between 'home installed' vs. 'factory installed' vs 'built that way' is all up in their ether of thought.
I like your idea of a generator for charging/cruising if your solar does not keep up with a medium sized battery bank. Just remember that sailing does not always mean 'showing up on time'.
Redundancy - Parallel Diesel Hybrid
I would put another option on the list - Parallel Diesel Hybrid. While full electric sounds great, for full time cruising and crossing oceans in variety of conditions to me sounds that Redundancy is a must. the hybrid systems you discuss are so called serial hybrid, which has its beauty but shortcomings as well (any failure in part of the system fails (almost) the entire system)
The Parallel Diesel Electric Hybrid systems could give you the option to be green - in a combination with big battery bank you use the electric motor only, but in case of emergency or failure you can kick the diesel (to use it independently or in combination with electric motor on the same drive).
With the above, your "underpowered" Yanmar will be more than enough, and to serve as e genset if/when needed. The main power will still be coming from the propeller on the main hull which is contradictory with the idea to have cat-like maneuverability with propellers in amas. Well, installing electric props on each ama with the purpose only of maneuvering in marinas could be the case I suspect ... or bow and stern trustors for axis-rotation functionality only.
I do really enjoy your channel and looking forward to future episodes, especially the refit challenge.
Admirations
I like the single engine, dual motor hybrid. You can still have air conditioning. I would recommend having an engine/generator large enough to drive it at normal cruise speed. For normal harbor and docking activity you can run without the engine. You might find yourself having to motor for longer periods than you like. Therefore, the diesel is here to stay.
Go electric, with regeneration (during sail) and possibility to connect small backup generator.
Option 4 is best and technically easy , especially when considering the knowledge needed to fix and maintain Diesel engines . Any learning curve for fully electric systems will be short for you my friend.
When sailing your props can be used as generators to charge the lithiums, the solar panel’s will be great for lights and cooking, etc. when in ports and a couple of wind generators when it’s windy and not sunny. I would bet you would only need a portable diesel/gas generator for a what if scenario .. and never have to use it. I think the true key to this system is lots of light weight lithium batteries which will still give you lots of extra room on board , taking out diesel tanks and motors.
Very good point again about the portable genset for the rare occasions. Thank mate. Cheers. Bartek
Pomysł z silnikami elektrycznymi jest super. Przejście na same baterie jest bardzo kuszące ale nie widzę możliwości (miejsca) zamontowania 8kW paneli na waszej łodzi. Ja nie zaryzykował bym zdrowiem rodziny nagłym brakiem mocy w razie godziny "W". Raczej postawił bym na generator i panele. Musicie też pamiętać cały czas o sprawności zamontowanych akumulatorów. Serdecznie Pozdrawiam Marek.:)
ps. W Szczecinie macie dobrego fachowca od akumulatorów, prowadzi kanał na YT " mrAkumularor " Zajmuje się też całymi zestawami paneli........ Zwróćcie się do niego, na pewno pomoże.
You forgot option 5, Beta Marine hybrid drive incorporating regen MJ Sailing have a video on the system perhaps check that out. Keep up the great videos and good luck with your choice
Hi
I am finding this project series quite interesting. Many of the comments have mentioned some great you tube contacts for information. With the size of refit you are thinking about, contacting Nigel Calder or at least his affiliated companies would be a must for me. He is involved in a couple of companies that specialize in electric power. Not sure about the motors. Integral Is one. He is the electrical standard for marine applications. Project Atticus used a company he is in partner with. My 2 cents.
The answer probably depends on how much power you need to motor at a reasonable speed of say ~5 knots. Can the solar & batteries generate that for most of the daylight hours?
Would be great to get away from fossil fuels, buying diesel and diesel engine maintenance!
Good luck!
For the momment we think we can get around 5 kW on average during daylight. That maybe enough to power us at 2 knots. I am not sure. We're experimental in this area. One thing is for sure is that the solars will greatly extend the autonomy. Gas powered portable light generator mentioned here by few viewers can be another occasional use solution. I agree fully on diesel maintenance and fossil fuel comment. Thank you. Cheers. Bartek
@@sailoceans would be great to ghost along - even if at low speed - when there isn't any wind, and a tri is perfect for that!
I suggest to keep the Yanmar as installed. Replace the alternator with a higher capacity. Add the electric systems reduce the size of your fuel tank down to about 40 gallons. Upgrade the electric panels and battery banks. This will let you gain the experience with the electric drive systems and their power requirements. Later on you can decide adjust your panel and battery banks before you remove the Yanmar. Then you are more comfortable with your systems performance and mature in your knowledge of the system.
Bartek, I am not a specialist in this field. However, the advice that I would offer is for you to decide first if you want to go the ecological route or not. If the answer to that is “yes”, then you need to consult a specialist. I would recommend that you contact and talk to Dan from Sailing Uma. They have pretty much built their boat themselves and it is all electric. They have sailed that boat for 7 years and have been right into the Arctic circle with it. They are architects and are very detail-oriented. So if anyone, they are very up to date with the latest electric technology and I am sure would be only too pleased to help or to point you to the right people, particularly if you choose to go electric as this is close to their hearts.
Yes. It's definitely happening next. I have heard more about Uma's Dan than about anyone or anything else so far :). I do want to go down this route including the ability to adjust my lifestyle to fit the perhaps imperfect solution in the name of silence, renewability, simplicity., and maneuverability I know the simplicity might be not so obvious, but just for me personally it is far easier to work on electrical and electronics systems thane on diesel. For many others it may very well be the exact opposite. Thanks for the info. Cheers Joe, Bartek
@@sailoceans Bartek, make it simple: 1. keep the Yanmar engine since is already mounted and ready to go 1a. add large alternator to help charge batteries (see project atticus) or 1b get sail drives that can charge batteries while sailing (See sailing UMA) 3. get new electric motors , solar panels and lithium batteries 4. get rid of volvo engine to help pay for the upgrades. If all would work great and all the kinks are worked out then get rid of diesel engine and go full electric. Pozdrowienia z Chicago z trimarana Doriacada.
As an electrician, I would keep to diesel engines...follow the KISS theory. Have a failed shaft seal with diesel = motor still works, shaft seal failure with electric = catastrophic failure. Having an electrical system failure at sea may have potential to stop all electrical systems on boat, both propulsion and house loads. Plus a high voltage DC arc if you have a failure in a big plastic boat may not end well. Yes I do see the merit in electric drives, but I do see the simplicity of having a stock standard diesel that can be relied on for long term hours on hours of work.
High voltage electricity and water. What could possibly go wrong?
what he said
@@deanbone6790
Same as with any electrical system ... Including those that manage modern diesel engines. ..
are your amas deep enough for prop drives , or will the cavitate too much in any sea motion
Yes "Sailing Uma" would be a great benefit to look at or ask their opinion. Narrow your choices to two. I would definitely look at the cost benefit factor. If you don't motor that much would it pay off to spend the money effort and time. How much will you save on Diesel ? How long will you spend in the yard retrofitting propulsion ?
Looks like green energy is not working for "Sailing Uma" they recently bought a generator to recharge their batteries, earlier they admitted, that they always charge batteries in marinas. How would it be easier and cheaper to just leave the diesel !!! Oops, I almost forgot Y/T looks differently at the green ones. 🤣🤣🤣 ROFL
Idea with going all electric with solar panels. I’d still keep your old generator for back up. Love your channel. Good luck.
Option 3A - > 4 - Keep 3KW generator (get rid of current saildrive, engine & LARGE fuel tank). Install the 6-7 kW of solar, install smaller 100-150 gal diesel fuel tank for 3kW generator. Install large battery bank from option 4.
Since you don;t "motor" much...even the electric drive shouldn't scare you when it comes to capacity ("motoring" for a long time..sinc eyour sailing history shows you don't motor much).
Another option is to convert to shaft drive (Neel 51's after hull 31 have that option). It's a V-Drive. Go V-Drive with a parallel diesel/electric hybrid (diesel engine with a clutch and electric motor inline). Allows diesel propulsion (electric motor acts as a 7-9 kW generator), can disengage clutch and run electric only. Or, can use electric motor for torque added to diesel operation). HH/OC are offering this now.
My solution is full electric with an 4kW diesel generator. 30 kW electric motor and 20 kW LifePo4 battery. Cruising speed 5 knots/ 4h, boat is 43 feet an 13 tons ketch. ;)
Hi Thomas. Thank you for sharing this. 1.5 c is very high. What kind of batteries do you have that can handle this kind of load? Or is that you never ran the motor at full speed for any significant amount of time? Normally the safe assumption is 0,5-1 c maximum before the BMS would cutoff the batteries so they don't overheat at too high discharge rate.
Another question: Is your 5 knots for 4 hours just from the batteries or is it with genset assist?
Cheers. Bartek
How big is your tender? Could you have a tender big enough to do extended towing? I like the fact that electric drive units can capture the water speed to charge the batteries when sailing.
Yes. The dinghy has been our emergency option all along. Its 25 HP can easily maneuver the big boat in port.
Cheers, Bartek
You want to go "Green"? Remember one of "Murphy's Laws". Electricity / electronics + marine environment = "Green Gunge". You must depend on hundreds, perhaps thousands of small electronic parts that cost less than US$1 not to fail VS. the of risk partial or total system failure if one resistor or capacitor decides to burn out or quit on you. And since those parts are largely contained in "black boxes" it is hard to determine which has failed or to repair / replace that part at sea.
Approximately 750 watts = 1HP. So 7Kw of electricity = 9.3HP. Not going to go very far on that amount of solar panel charge capacity. You say your 54HP Yanmar is underpowered to push the boat into a strong head wind(amount of available power does not matter when going against adverse currents as many people believe). How will two much less powerful electric motors do in the same circumstances? Two 25HP electric motors would require 37.5Kw of available electric power. For a sustained time period that amount of output would require a HUGE battery bank. These numbers are all based on 100% efficiency in the system.
Most sailboats moving under the power of their auxiliary engine are in 'displacement hull" mode. They are not going to plane like a high speed power boat. Generally maximum hull speed in those circumstances is 1.35 X the square root of the waterline length. In your case about 9.5 knots top speed(I'm guessing your WL is about 49 feet). BUT anytime you exceed 1 X the square root of the waterline length your fuel consumption dramatically increases. In your case that means ideal max cruise speed VS fuel consumption= 6~7 knots.
Now comes the tricky part. For many sailboats moving at 0.8~1 X the square root of the waterline length requires about 50% or less of the main engines rated output. The rest of the engine's available power is used to go faster NOT MORE POWERFULLY. This is often a hard thing for people to conceive. Boat manufacturers love to sell high HP engines(larger profit margins). Engine manufacturers love to sell higher power engines(larger profit margins). People love to buy higher power engines because it gives them bragging rights.
It used to be that sailboats had AUXILIARY engines. One HP per ton of displacement was considered adequate for this purpose. One HP per half ton displacement verged on being a motor sailor. Now it seems people want one HP per quarter ton displacement. Insanity.
The problem is that all that "extra" HP cannot be used effectively. Because propellers turn too fast to be efficient, generating a lot of "slip". What you really want is POWER with a good balance of speed for better fuel efficiency. How do you get that balance? By turning a large diameter propeller at slow speed. The propeller shaft should turn at 1,000 RPM or less. You know those huge ocean going container ships? Most sailors have seen them at sea, sedately cruising along at 20+ knots. Do you know how fast their propellers turn? Depending on the ship's size between 60~75 revolutions per minute. Boggles the mind, doesn't it.
Although I do not know, I would say that your current Yanmar has a 2:1 reduction gear and therein lies the problem. At one time Yanmar offered a choice of reduction gears for their inboard diesel engines, same price for all. When I built my 10,000lb, 30" sailboat I ordered a new Yanmar 2GM16, two cylinder 16HP engine for the boat. AND I ordered a 3.25:1 reduction gear on the engine. There was not one reduction gear like that in the entire USA at the time(30 years ago). The dealer had to remove the reduction unit and replace the gears inside with standard parts from Yanmar. The result? My boat would go 4 knots at 1,500 engine RPM and used one liter per hour of diesel fuel. Great for crossing the doldrums in the Pacific while powering for four days straight in dead flat calm for 6 gals a 24 hour day. The other benefit was being able to power straight into 6~8' trade wind seas and 15~20knot trade winds at 4~5 knots at 3,000 RPM engine speed which was still less than 1,000 RPM shaft speed. Oh yes my propeller was a 16" diameter X 10" pitch Martec folding cruising prop, so little to no drag while sailing.
Perhaps your best all around solution would be to eliminate the saildrive(high maintenance item) and replace to with a 2.75:1 reduction gear and a straight shaft connected to a three blade folding / feathering prop. Give electric power a pass until portable fusion generators are available.
It's great that you are considering going electric/hybrid. You explained some good options and give the right arguments for them. I'm the Co-owner of STOK Electric, we're currently developing our own hybrid system for sailing yachts. Unfortunately we're not ready to offer a system to the market yet. But maybe it would be interesting for you to contact us to discuss your options a little and give some advice. Maybe it's even possible for you to come and visit our current project in Makkum The Netherlands (from the shots it looks like you're there). If you're interested you can contact us!
We are in Poland. But we will happily talk to you about details. Let me know how best to contact you.
@@sailoceans I will send you an email on your website!
@@antonijn7654 got it thanks talk to you soon
Have you thought about ocean volt with turnable saildrives you might be able to put two side by side in the mail hull, giving you redundecy and manuverability, but keeping your wire runs short from motor to battery banks. Also ocean vault has great Regen options then get a small Genset and a bunch of Tesla or Chevy volt batteries.
Go for the full electric option. With the new roof you have more space for solar panels. You can also use regen with Oceanvolt when you are sailing. When you remove the tank you have enough space for a big battery bank.
Always keep a Gen, just to power the batteries incase you dont have enough light for the solar panels..
A large battery bank also means, that you need to keep them in groups.. Divide them so that one is operable without the other.. Group them in such a way, that you should be able to charge the batteries enough.. You will always have a back up to a backup!!
I have been designing a trimaran in my head for 50 years and it currently has an electric drive forward and stern. the forward drive would be easier to keep the boat on course in waves and the stern drive would work well for regeneration when sailing. How big theneed for continous operation generator is depends on your
I would add 10 kW electric pod motors to each of the amas to augment your existing Yanmar diesel in those 30 knot winds and for manoeuvring and cruising at low speeds, and add a 9 kW integral marine generator to your Yanmar via pulley to charge 60 kWh LFP batteries, and remove the genset. 6 kW of solar will only harvest about 30 kWh over a sunny summer day. If you discharge 60 kWh LFP to 50% (use 30 kWh), then your 6 kW of solar will charge it back to 100% on a sunny day. If you need more than 30 kWh in a sunny day you will have to run your diesel engine for propulsion or to charge the batteries.
Other than option 1, those are very expensive options. If you mount a generator motor to a big diesel it can also be used as a motor to power the boat. My suggestion would be to convert to a shaft drive with an electric motor/generator mounted on the shaft that can also be used for regenerating under sail. If you need more power for an hour or two you can use both the diesel and electric motor together. If you still want twin motors for turning in a marina, mount two large trolling motors on the transoms of the amas. They can flip up and not cause drag while underway.
Love this solution and similar to one I was thinking of if I ever acquired a Neel 51.
Dan and Kika with Sailing Uma could help you folks out for sure! They've taken their Pearson 37 with electric conversion all the way from the Caribbean to the Arctic Circle. They are able to generate ⚡ from solar, wind and regen.
If you decide all e!electric consider saildrive units with regen.
Hi for me it’s all electric and more planned sailing plus your doing it the right for the stuff u sail on and for the life that lives underneath you and your doing your bit for the big blue orb.pete
Option 5... Remove the sails and mast. Install 16kw of solar and 600kw of batteries. 🤩
Hahaha, love it 🥰
Check out Anteres Catamarans video about their hybrid system. They considered some things that you haven’t mentioned in this video that I think you will find useful.
with a family on board, safety and backup systems need to be your number one possibilty. Everything breaks, including electric, I would go with a backup diesel generator to supply power to your electric engines.
Each option sounds great and the decision depends on your plans. If, for example, in the next 12-24 months you will be sailing in the Mediterranean Sea, you can switch to full electric, although, hybrid options seem to be the most reasonable.
You forgot important one of the pros. , you will be having new contents to share which will attract hugs about of audiences, even supporters for such a project, good luck with your decision.
Excellent point. Judging by the amount of comments on this episode it is more than spot on. Cheers mate. Bartek
Electric drives with generator sounds exciting particularly if they were rotating drives !
You have the prettiest blond girl on a boating channel 😉👍
Bartek, I would go the way you are self reliant and don't have a worry about being towed or counting on anyone to help you. This day and age you have to watch out for yourselves. Go the way you can do it yourself and save some money for other things you can use for your growing boys. You already have many engines to decide on using and add the electric drives like you said. Just my opinion and I'm sure you will have all the experts chiming in with plenty of of the high tech talk they will give you. Have a good one.
How about a Hybrid system? Where you install the two electric engines with Lithium batt system you mentioned doing, but keep the diesel engine adding a larger alternator to it. So when the diesel running its charging the lithium batteries and you could put a clutch on it to engage its prop as backup propulsion.Not sure if I explained that well, but you can look at how Greenline Yachts does it.
We are heading in direction of a hybrid, but with a light DC genset, modest battery bank, and two electric motors. Keeping the 300 kg of the big diesel aboard would defeat the purpose for us. We would only add significant weight that way and we intend to keep it down. This boat is very sensitive to overloading and part of this refit is getting rid of all the unnecessary stuff. Thank you for your comment. Cheers mate. Bartek
Keep redundent options.
Genset could pull you through.
Sails complicate solar panel operations. Don't want to have to plot course just to maximize sun exp[osure.
Are you getting regen capacity with those motors when sailing?
That could extend your range and maximize battery charges.
Lots of considerations...
if you go all eclectic, consider all the methods, wind power, hydro power as well as solar power. That way you have redundancy
Hey Guys! I have heard that there is the possibility to recharge the batteries under sail not just with the solar panels but also with the propeller. You haven't said anything about it in the video...?
How about a hydro-charger and or a wind generator that feeds your batteries while under sail?
Thinking a bit more about your project (not sure where my previous comments gone) the interesting option could be installation of two Oceanavolt 15 servoprops fitted off CL in main hull.
From what you described, such option should check most, if not all the boxes.
Pros:
- off the shelf tested product
- sufficient power (less than old VP, but more than your Yanmar)(2 sets because Oceanvolt does not have the bigger drives so far)
- good manouvrability (two props off CL)
- redundancy (two drive trains)
- relatively low drag if needed (feathered props)
- good power generation (servoprop)
- increased endurance (motoring on single prop with low revs would bring you further)
Cons:
- extra cost (two units instead of single drive)
- higher drag (comparing with single folding prop)
- lower efficiencey (two small props instead of single bigger one)
- extra composite works (closing exiting hull penetration and making two new ones)
Most of these cons should not be show stoppers as long as you considered two drives anyway.
Good luck,
Wojciech
Thank you Wojtek. Those are all god points. However, OceanVolt has priced itself out of the consideration unfortunately. We agree that technically this is the best solution. Cheers. Bartek
Consider if you get caught in a storm and something happens where you need to stay on your own power for an extended period of time. Seems big Gen is the safest option.
Option 4 would sure be nice 👍
We're heading that way, but with a small emergency genset.
I have been thinking about this topic also. I wish to repower my Beneteau 50. In a perfect world (and more advanced battery storage abilities) the decision would be pure electric and easy for all the reasons you stated. BUT I keep coming back to a night in Baddeck, Nova Scotia a few years ago when we were anchored during a 70 knot blow that required us to motor forward 14 hours to relieve the pressure on the anchor. Did we stupidly stay too long knowing that there would be wind? Hell yes, but the point is that we who voyage DO sometimes make mistakes and we need to have the solutions aboard if at all possible. For safety sake I am not going the #4 option no matter how romantic and green it makes me and some couch sailors feel. Remember that UMA took a gas generator with them to the attic. Smart. Safety of my family and boat, at this point in the technology, requires a diesel back up of some sort. Your option #2 does not supply the safety factor (2 motors but one source of power). I envy your 3 hulls for options! Acres of available solar is wonderful. My solution at this point is to go with a Beta 75hp Hybrid system and a ton of lithium batteries. The hybrid system will let me propel the boat for 2+ hours pure electric and then, if needed shift to diesel mode. It is not sexy, cutting edge or perfect by any means. But, for me, is gives the right balance of safety and green.
@SailOceans - question: if you go electric drives in the two floats (which for a trimaran is a very cool solution), do you know for sure that the two floats will stay in the water in rough sea?
From the many videos I've seen of trimarans, they probably won't.
@@jamesaron1967
I asked Bart about this exact thing.
This is a very wide cruising vessel so it designed to stay flatter in the water.
Pod drives would sit lower still in the water under the Amas.
Thinking about, for me the best option is n. 4 but keeping the 3kw generator and a smaller battery pack to reduce costs.
But, If the battery is sponsored, go crazy and get a big one, just remember how heavy is a large Lifepo4 battery pack. For 15h run will be heavier than engine+gears+fuel etc
You might want to check in with Sailing Uma . They have been doing 100percent electric now for years including this year in the Arctic circle . They won't steer you wrong , I am a big fan
We did. Thank you. Cheers.
Go for 4. Lfp batteries are now 10kg per kw. 300 kg is 30 kwh, sb enough. Could use 2 outboards like seawind. You.only need 2 to 4 hp (1.5 to 3 kw) per ton.
Outboards do get stolen and are not that fuel efficient though they do come in Diesel and four stroke versions. They are also a pain to work on at sea.
@@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665 I was thinking electric ob.
I would keep bigger diesel (Volvo penta) and add 2 electric drive!
1. Because all electric is not mature yet and high cost
2. Reliability and easy to repair diesel - if electricity fail - still you can go somewhere to repair it
3. Install 2x 48V 200A alternators to volvo penta - will give you ~18kW electric generator (there are plenty used car alternators (48V) available for ~200€)
4. install 2x electric drive ~15kW each
5. Battery for the moment 4x 100Ah @48V give you ~20kWh energy - make sure there are LiFeSO4 not tesla like LiOn because those are flammable - last yest 100Ah cost arround 3k€ now 1,5k!
6. Make sure you buy solar hybrid inverter and if possible solar optimizer to each solar panel
For the 1-2 year of usage finally you can upgrade battery and replace diesel drive to generator
option 4b all electric but keep current genset
Put electric motors in the outer hulls and leave the diesel in the center hull. that way you are covered in any circumstance.
True, but the damn weight :(
Go electric without a gen-set. I've heard that the newest Ocean Volt has incredible re-gen capabilities. With the correct amount of batteries and solar panels, you will never need a generator and you will be able to cross oceans without hoisting your sails. Go 100% electric except for your outboard for your dinghy and BBQ. I think the best way to go for fuel for your BBQ is white gas but am not 100% sure on that just yet. I like the idea of an Ocean Volt shaft driven set up verses the inboard/ outboard set up better but that means that you will have to do a lot of modification. I'm not sure if you saw my comment on your last video but you should really read it because I gave you a lot of very helpful tips. If you go through the Panama Canal than just put an outboard on the transom and away you go without any issues. You can install a mounting bracket that can slide into position when needed and can also store it away when not in use. You can use your dinghy outboard for that. Get sponsorships on the Ocean Volt as well as anything else you might need. Sailing UMA just installed a brand new Ocean Volt.
Yes Uma has loads of experience with this and has done a ton of sailing without any diesel engine. They only recently added a small generator as backup for their sail up into the Arctic circle where limited sun on their small solar setup and lack of shore power meant they needed augment the batteries for the sake of speed. But they probably have less than a kW of solar and with your boat you have room for loads of solar, batteries, a wind turbine, and with two Ocean Volt drives well over a kW of regen when under sail - especially with the higher speeds of a trimaran. Looking forward to seeing what you go with and happy that all electric is increasingly coming up as an option
I'm late but was there a convenient space in outriggers for a diesels? If there was than why even consider going electric?
A couple of things to consider. Lightening might put both your electric drives out. If you have a huge battery bank you need to top it up in reasonable time. You were talking about 15hrs at say 15kwh needs 225kwh of storage. 6kw of solar = 37.5hrs = 7.5 GOOD days of sunshine. Because your motoring time is so low, I would go electric with a 10kva generator, you can probably do 5kn with 10kva unless your pushing in to it but then you will probably sail. If you know you have a long way to go, start the generator at the start. A good sized battery bank.
Lightning will take out most modern deisels as well as they rely on sensors to function run and start..
Love the video. I have no idea what you should do, but I have know doubt it'll be fun to watch.
OK. All electric, if you're taking votes.
Oh yes, I know one thing, there's nothing worse than an under powered boat. ;)
What about Beta Marine Parallel-Hybrid Diesel-Electric engine. I think they are Kubota based, so plenty of parts worldwide. It seems to me if you ever get in a big storm for a long period of time, that you can drop sails and motor. I think I would want the ability to run for 24-72 hours, so diesel would work in a pinch. Electric the rest of the time. Win win
We'll get to this discussion soon in upcoming episodes. Cheers. B
Any of the options will result in compromise. Full electric is the only interesting option from a youtube perspective. Would it be possible to reserve space to hire /drop-in a genset for the few occasions you require long range?
Electric motors dual fix, lithium, Solar, wind gens and a 10?kw genset for backup good luck!
Just wondering if you decided on your engine configuration yet? If not have you seen the new HH catamaran hybrid drive system? You could use your existing Volvo in the configuration, do large solar and batteries, reduce fuel tank size and remove generator for weight. By adding large alternators to the Volvo it would act as both back-up engine and generator. Just something to think about; love the channel!
That's exactly the way we are going :)
Option 3b sounds the best
I am leaning that way ;). Cheers.
@@sailoceans yer for me if I'm doing crossings and stuff and we have bad weather for days so no solar and can't use sails I'd want the redundancy of a generator for my familys safety thats my thinking great luck love the vids chur chur from tauranga new Zealand 🇳🇿
Panama canal? No brother, lets not compare 1% with the rest.. You'r going good with All E...
If I were you, I'd speak to Dan and Kika on SV Uma and get some information on their 'Re-gen Sail Drive' and motor. Your idea of having a drive unit in each of the outer hulls is a good idea. So, the question is, do you keep the main diesel engine and use it as a generator, or do you buy a bigger genset and have a large battery bank as well, which can also be charged by a good amount of solar, PLUS the power generated by the sail drive regen system.
go for the bigger gen set , batteries and electric motors with regeneration
Hi my friends even though I love the idea of electric concept due to sustainability etc... I would install the Volvo back again, because of safety issues. The diesel once started runs also without electric power even in a worst thunderstorm and when already water is in the boat, this is the situation we all dont want and where batteries give up but the diesel still runs, also you can use the diesel to pump water out of the boat... Further more you said that you are using it very minimal. Minimal usage = minimal polution. When you put all the points in the basket it is at the end in my opinion the best and most importantly the safest solution. Boating is different compared to car, hence I would not go electric.
What about 5th option - no engies, no batteries, no fuel tank, only 2 propellers powered by 2 persons on stationary bicycles - eco and healthy :)
There are also diesel/propane generators. You could remove the diesel tank, insert propane tank (which is compressed and takes a lot less space) and in emergencies you could manually connect diesel canisters if propane was depleted in a remote area with only diesel, etc.
Propane is exactly what we want to get rid of. And we are hoping to achieve near 100% solar sustainability for house needs. Only the main propulsion is going to remain diesel for the time being. Cheers. Bartek
@@sailoceans Ah yea, good point. You did mention the environmental impact preferences.
For what I understand of electric drive i would go with larger batteries banks a generators maybe a little bigger that what you have a large solar panel bank, keep your diesel tank keep it low when around civilization and fill as you need .unfortunately batteries are not quite there yet. And also you can look at other options for changing like more quiet wind generators etc....
Hi, good idea option 3c go electric with 20kW gen set and 3kW backup as emergency. So generally you can stay on solar and when necessary high charge by 20kw gen set to keep you move fwd. Some el motors from el car would be an option to convert for the marine use / inverter and controls issues, good luck
Let him talk woman 🤣... 2 x 54hk separate diesel , with drifshaft
Will there be cavitation of the props if they are on the amas? What about drag when sailing? Like the redundancy of two engines.. Maybe put them both on main Hull so no loss of power due to cavitation?
Cavitation under power ? Thats a function of the prop spinning too fast for the water passing over it. The props can be folding or servo type ..ie to a fully reversible position. Sailing Uma have gone from a folding set up to a servo prop with regen.
Do you mean drag when under sail ? Theres also the possibility of regenerative charging under full sailing conditions depending on the motor design but the power of the motors shouldn't be an issue .. as a motor the size of a small suitcase and liftable by hand can produce huge amounts of power and torque for years.
@@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665 Cavitation as in when the amas pull up out of the water due to the force of the wind on the boat.. there is a slight tilt even for trimaran's when the wind hits one side and the other side tilts up out of the water then there will be cavitation if they have the props on and lose power on that side.. or even prop coming totally out of the water just depends on how much wind force is hitting the boat at that time and quite frankly if this is in a emergency situation like steering out of a difficult area or a prop coming out of the water at all is not a good thing as you would lose half you thrust power or a percentage depending on how much the prop came out of the water and if there was cavitation... just not sure putting the props on the amas is a good idea as the tilt of the boat will affect the efficiency of the props depending on the proximity to the waters surface... i would not want my family and myself to rely on props that could potentially come out of the water in a strong wind and lose thrust on one side of the boat... disastrous in a storm or high current indeed...
@@ThoughtfulWander
I see your point i did ask him about the hulls flying but as this is a wide cruising vessel they dont lift that far ..if he was worried about not being able to sail safely he would have dropped his sails anyway and would be running on motors .. you see.. also if he suddenly needed to turn into the wind it would be the down ama in the water anyway....turning the other way he would drop the lifted ama in the action or turning away.
The only other point is the positioning of the props under the amas and why the need to be that far forward.🤔👍🏻
@@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665 ok hopefully all is OK.. Just wanted to see if it had been thought about.. Stay safe SailOceans crew.
@@ThoughtfulWander
I think they are following Polish testing techniques.. .😉 Trouble is This might be the first larger Trimaran to go down this route.
I would ask a few questions at the school of maritime studies..
get someone to run some of the numbers and look at the hulls behaviour under power and sail given any changes. Nice project paper for a post graduate.
My calculations (and I am not an expert), indicate that there in not enough space on a cat/tri for sufficient solar panels to power continuous operation on an electric boat. While solar panels are increasing in efficiency, they are improving only incrementally. Thus with electric drive, your battery bank will be discharging during continuous operation as 7kw solar will not be sufficient to recharge the batteries - this is both for now, and into the medium term future.
Thus, even with an obesely large battery bank, eventually the bank will discharge during continuous operation. Interestingly, batteries are increasing in efficiency and price at a spectacular rate. Analysing how cars are increasing their battery size, it is not inconceivable that an electric boat could soon have a 80-100kwh battery bank, and that battery bank would economic.
So the central question is how long are you willing to accept being becalmed (ie waiting for the solar to recharge the batteries). In the old days this was considered part of the sailing experience. But now becalmed is both inconvenient, and considered unsafe and risky.
Personally, I like your idea of a small 3kw generator. However, having two small 3kw generators would provide both redundancy and additional power. It is also important that your electric motors have regeneration.
I can imagine that you will end up with 24kwh - 40kwh of battery storage, together with 7kw of solar, and two separate (and therefore redundant) power control systems. However with a system such as this, the chances of being becalmed on long ocean crossings, would be very high. Therefore it would seem prudent to carry two small 3kw fossil fuel generators (of a brand that can be repaired anywhere in the world), to provide redundancy and range extension. For island hopping and coastal cruising I can imagine the generators being unnecessary
All correct . That's why we are adding a 12 kW or so genset straight to 48DC for those rare occasions and emergencies. Thanks for your insight. Cheers. Bartek
Silent yatch's do it at a reduced throttle but the sail and rig messes up solar power at times due to partial shadowing...and panel configurations.
Hi Me again...solid state battery tech.(Solid Power) C.C.R real wood boat 🏴☠️ 🚢 😎
IPS drive would be nice for manuvaring
I know, but I have no love for saildrives to begin with and IPS seems like a whole another level of complication and reliability issues.
Have you spoken to Sailing Uma? They have been fully electric for some time now but are continuously upgrading things to increase regen over recent months. I assume the logic is that better regen means longer continuous sail possibilities. Sorry if I am repeating things you already know
Thanks. Yes, we know their setup. Ours based on OV would be double the 15 ServoProp, but unfortunately OV is out of our range financially. Cheers. Bartek
Fully autonomous electric. Less moving parts, quiet and zero cost and maintenance. Double your planned initial battery bank size and add wind generator..
Have a chat to Sailing Uma - they have extensive experience with wholly electric sytems...
Redundancies yet follow cautious optimism send that you have the option of diesel use the Volvo 75 as your power plant conversion the Yamaha 15 to a generator get some batteries and slowly transitioning into electric in the end it’s still your call
If you go full solar you really do need to keep a generator on hand for adverse conditions. Don't go with flex solar panels. Some cheaper panels outperform more expensive ones so start looking at independent tests of the different panels. When figuring costs factor in that the technology is improving every year so don't factor costs over 10 or 20 years, more like 5-10. You can always sell older equipment to get back a few dollars if you keep it all well maintained. It's not really a good do-it-yourself project to install a full electric system so unless you have someone who has been working in the field for a good number of years to stand over your shoulder and tell you what to do, leave it to the pros. If this were a camper van you were turning electric it would be a different matter but mistakes installing a new system in a boat could cost you your boat or worse, your lives.
Have you checked into insurance costs for the different changes? That could affect your decision.
Really good, if you dont get a commited sponsor, dont go for 100% el. Look forward too the next one👌🏻
Electric motors in outer hulls with Generator backup to charge batteries.
Will the E motors to be able to regenerate batteries when sailing? Max motor design should be; the best current against you with no wind. This is the emergency end of the spectrum for the motors speed. The minimum you need is to get you into harbour(depends on you draft, weight etc and min hp to move sailboat) The generator should be large enough to motor at (whatever your max is) and still charge up the household load. As stated in below comments, the 2 E motors give you the best maneuverability. Are propellers straightlined to motor or L Drive? cost of installing new E motor system on outer hulls vs. installing old 75 HP motor in central hull.
Alot is going to depend on the household load and future add on to the household load. Fridge, Freezer, Stove, oven, washer, dryer, microwave, AC/heaters, water makers as your family grows . Not to mention electronics (computers, cameras, and phones). Also boat operating loads for navigation, lights, radios, radars etc. An increase in solar panels and batteries will happen, just get the minimum now and add to it in future expansion.
So any current E using equipment and addons that require electrical will have to be taken into account. (you need to know voltage and daily consumption of electricity for all these things).
Also whether E is DC or AC and the voltage required for all equipment. The more converters the more you waste energy. if you have systems that run on DC, 12, 24, 48 or 96 volts. AC is either 120/220. Plan to minimize types of converters. Type of batteries and what voltage they are charged to? Check out the Delos, sailing uma, and Sailing Ruby rose channels. Look at where you are at for Electricity, batteries and see where you want to go with what you want in the future.
Check out the Sunreef website, ship yard in Gdansk, their eco sail boats.
Are your batteries above the waterline? What precautions are taken if they are below and water floods the space?
Are you looking for more performance by saving weight? If you remove weight what are your options to lower your center of gravity to make the sailboat more stable?
On a cat you have enough surface to add lots of solar panels. Solar+regen+electric drive is the only smart solution! Think about the money you will not be wasting on diesel, oil and maintenance.