I don’t comment very much, but this I will say this is why this channel is my favorite of them all. Thomas is a very knowledgeable sailor, in seamanship and technical. I always look forward to new episodes knowing I will learn more about sailing. Thanks for sharing Thomas 💪🏽🫶🏽🤙🏽
I do t sea how is he knowledgeable then he never haved an electric. Also what he is talking make no sense at all. Totaly mialiding information. Look sailing Vagabond. I met then in culatra portugal. They also was against alectric engine. Look them now. Proud of the electric engine.
I haven't watched recent La Vagabond episodes, but the last one I saw, he was afraid of getting into trouble with only an electric engine, as his diesel engine was getting replaced. That is inspite of having a very fast boat that would optimize hydrogeneration. I'm interested in how they and sailing with the wynns do long term.@@SailingTerra
@@SailingTerraI dont think you ever used solar power for a house with full comfort,then you know that it’s too much in summertime and by far not enough in wintertimes How can you get enough solar power on a boat,shadow masts cables wrong direction continues…. It should be nice but it’s just dreaming about,Thomas explain in simple words the truth
@@marcvandaele1878 I have 3000w solar on my boat. 99%i use only my electric engine. I have aways 100%battery using all haushold units like 140liter samsung fridge, washing machine and everthink electric. Powered with 5kw inverter. Never problem with power. 50kw battery where I want to ubgrade to more in future.
After sailing half way around the world I agree completely. We are now in Thailand and motor sailing is a part of life in this part of the world. Sailing Aquarius just lost their masts crossing the Atlantic and still have 1000 miles to get to safely. They just received 260ltrs of diesel so now they can reach Martinique. Imagine trying to get battery power dropped off so your electric motor can get you to safety!
Well yeah that would be the counter to it, you dont need a delivery lol. good point. If you cant get the delivery, you are screwed if you have fossil fuel only. I didnt even think about that.
There is a minor flaw in you're argument @@JoeKyser when the mast comes down it is highly likely that your solar is going to get bashed up, and where does this leave you ?
Best part about Thomas, he calls it like he believes it, even when it comes to his preference in equipment. Don’t change or ever apologize. Anyone who gives you a hard time for giving your expertise is foolish! Don’t change. Love your videos.
As an electrical engineer, I concur. My long distance sails are only 1200nm but it doesn’t take long for conditions to become a problem. Thank you for doing this well informed video.
I agree. Although I'd prefer he tightened up the precision of his terminology and be consistent. At 5:55 he said "2.5 kilowatts of energy". Of course (as you will be aware as an elec eng) ENERGY is not measured in kilowatts, POWER is measured in kW. For the benefit of other viewers, power is the rate that energy is produced per unit of time, 1 kilowatt is defined as 1 kilojoule of energy per second. So for, say, 10 hours of useable daylight, each panel produces about 250 Watts of power every hour (250W x 10h/day = 2500Wh/day which is 2.5kWh/day). What I'm suspecting is that Thomas meant to say 2.5 kWh/day - kilowatt hours per day - which IS an expression of DAILY energy production, and much more useful as you don't have to get into the weeds of hourly fluctuations. (Note: there are other calculations embedded in that number that we're not shown, like total daylight hours, and some value of how solar production varies through the day. Admittedly that might be beyond the scope of what he wished to do here.) But, at minimum, I'd like to see him post the rated POWER of each panel - in WATTS or KILOWATTS, if he can. As for the rest of the video, it's excellent. Especially enjoyed his remarks about speed loss due to currents, and the need for adequate range. But I think his generator headaches might be largely due to an inferior brand.
@@Cdesousa43 someone calculated the amount of solar cells and wind fams necessary to convert the USA to renewable energy and it would cover most of the West including TX I think this was 2020 ish no oil and ng is still the way to go.
Thomas, I love your honest approach. This video is BRILLIANT. Honesty that stepped on toes, which is backed up by ocean crossing data, is necessary to drive home your message. The problems the sailing channels who have gone this route are experiencing is only the tip of the iceberg. I enjoyed the humor, too. Thank you for sharing.
Great video Thomas, with your background your opinion on safety is always well founded and appreciated, it’s easy to get carried along with the flow when your own research and maths would take another path.
Great video Thomas. I appreciate you share your honest opinions about things you have experienced your self. I'm glad I sail a much smaller boat that I love to keep as loyal as possible to KISS. I also for the moment do pretty much only coastal sailing around Denmark, Sweden, Norway. Although my dream is to sail the pacific, the fact of 210 rain days a year...hmmmm. Yes, the temperatures area high down there even when it is raining compares to what we have here in Scandinavia. But as you must know your self, we have amazing cruising grounds in Scandinavia which I intend to explore more in the coming years. Sail safe
That was a gutsy and detailed discussion. I applaud your through research and effective use of graphics. Since I'm old and old-school, you won't be surprised that I, over 45 years of owning a sloop and cruising, never could see the practicality of the " green solution". So, I use a little dinosaur squeezings; far less that my friends on trawlers use on a typical cruise.
Your Scandinavian neighbour Mads from Sail Life channel, had pretty much same experience with Fisher Panda, as you. Failure after failure and worst part, their support sucks. Thanks for the good, honest and instructional video Thomas, keep up a good work!
No green boat for me. I am an electric engineer and l hve been working as an electrician since l was 15 year. I am 3. generation and l am now 67 years old. I totaly agree with you Thomas. Beste hilsner fra Sandefjord, Terje Bjørge
You have done an excellent analysis and I agree fully with you. For as much as we would like it to be, the electric option is not good. Those you promote electric boats are somewhat biased and did not experienced what you did. Thanks and good continuation of your trip. Richard
Diesel electric locomotives are a thing. He's complaining about a diesel generator while relying on a diesel engine. Both require a lot of TLC. An electric system, on the other hand, requires the occasional dusting (and a reasonable Faraday cage). Also, you don't replace diesel with batteries, solar, or wind. If you need to run long and hard I would think you would need a lot of diesel and a good generator and/or enough wind and sun to provide power from solar and regen, enough batteries to take it, and an electric motor to ensure a minimum speed.
I have to disagree a little. No offense! 😊 First of all, the speeds and ranges. If you go with electric boat, you sail differently. You have to know your range and boat and its behavior. Then you don't even assume to have 1000NM range or even close. You go by the weather even more. Stay in the calm for a few days or weeks even. Sailing has been done for thousands of years. Diesel engines have existed like 50-60 years. So it's kind of going little bit back in time in a way and closer to nature. Not all boats have engine at all even now. Than the speed. With electic, you go slower. In my experience and knowledge gained, around 4 knots is sensible max speed to go. Over that, the consumption raises dramatically with just a small speed gain. Even larger boat can go 3-4 knots with maybe only 3-5kw of power. That means, that with sensible amount of solar, the range is actually almost unlimited. Without generator at all. Of course, there's situations that will require more power for a while (like strong currents). But it comes to the fact that you have to know your boat and avoid going into that kind of situations in a first place. Than the technical side. Electric motor is perhaps the simplest device there is. There's really no maintenance, they are very cheap (so cheap you can buy one as spare). All you really need is the motor, controller and batteries. So for the case of lightning strike - you can simply have few spares on board in safe place. (And I can say, lightning is one of the thing I'm most concerned!) --> That means: no fancy ready-to-go systems. Oceanvolt is great, but their price is just out of this world (especially the batteries!). I'd say that doing things DIY (which you should if you're going for long distance cruising anyway), you can make full electric system with even decent amount of batteries for 10K. Then there's regen. If done right, electric system charges your batteries every time you sail. That actually should be essential feature that should work well to make electric system really usable. Which brings us to the question. Is sails the main propulsion or the diesel engine? Would it actually be just that much more economical to ditch the whole rig, sails and stuff (like tens of thousands) and just buy diesel instead? (sails+rig are actually quite expensive/NM!) One thing I totally agree though! Hybrid systems are waste of money. If there's a generator/engine, it should be just a backup of backups. All diesel engines are complicated machines that require a lot of supportive systems to function reliably - so with hybrid system you don't really gain anything, just making it more complicated and maybe giving false feeling of security.
Love your research to back up what you think,and electric or hybrid is not reliable or powerful enough when you need it the most.I watch spoondrifters and it is a solar-hybrid electric powered 46 foot Morgan.They go 3 knots at best when it’s dead calm with no wind or current they run a diesel generator that’s about 8 kw to power the electric propulsion motor.They also run a Honda gas generator sometimes.They have had so many problems with this system including almost catching on fire.The electric motor will run hot and it’s always something wrong with the system.Your video was totally accurate with the data to back it up.I grew up building boats with my dad and have built commercial shrimp boats for myself so understand what works and what doesn’t too.A reliable diesel is priceless in bad weather even at anchor and on passages.l would like your honest opinion of Panda Fisher generators………😂😂.Hope everyone will watch this valuable video and change their ideas and opinions on electric/hybrid propulsion.Great as always Thomas 👍👍👍👍👍👍💯😊
Hi, thanks for your honest opinion, this obsession with going green put safety at risk. The diesel is the way to go but better design one need to be put forward like the diesel with opposed pistons with 2 crankshaft that generate more than 50% efficiency. Electric motors are good to go to remote protected areas, just imagine getting a lighting strike on your sailboat and having all of it going literally up in smoke! You sure going to be green , ya green with envy with your neighbor running his DIESEL!!!
Meget realistisk og god gjennomgang som virkelig setter ting i perspektiv , fra deg som er på tur er dette meget troverdig i motsetning til grafene fra leverandører av helelektriske løsninger, god tur videre , stay safe and fair winds ! :-)
Hi there Thomas. After living onboard for 25 years, and being a marine engineer. May I draw your attention to Beta marine hybrid diesel engines. This system would solve many of the issues you mention. Also, I don't think anyone with a hybrid system and a large battery bank would expect to be able to charge their bank from empty to full in ONE day via solar power! Unrealistic... I do appreciate your Chanel, and have gained much from you experiences in areas I wish to go in the future. Best regards. Mark.
I am not a sailor yet, but an automotive engineer. A parallel hybrid system like the beta marine one would be the only viable solution for a sailing yacht in my opinion, if hybrid is wanted. I would argue such a system could even increase safety, because you could still have manuverability by propeller in port/near shore in case of an main engine failure. But I am not sure about the effectiveness of the proposed way of operating it. Because of the losses while charging and depleating a battery there is typically not seen a huge benefit if any in fuel consumption due to increased load on the main engine. At least that is the case in plug-in hybrid cars and why they typically are not operated like this. The main benefits I see in such a system is the ability to generate electricity with the propeller, while sailing independent of fuel and sun. And the reduced noise, so I would use the electric engine while motorsailing mainly 5-8 hours a night to get more comfortable sleep.
Having looked at these there are two problems: firstly price 3 to 4 times price of diesel engine, secondly they are tied up with new builds- no availability for retrofitting.
Fully aware they can be retrofitted, but first you have to be able to get one. They are fully booked for a long time ahead for new builds, at least in Europe, so you can't get one if you wanted to
Having cruised for 25 yrs, there is a reason they my built in diesel tankage is 270 Gallons! That’s without any jugs. Love it. And I also have a Honda 2000. For back up. And of course solar for general boat systems. I have nearly 1500 km range under power.
Our boat came with a Fisher Panda and I tried trading it in for a Northern Lights. They explained me I had to pay full price on the Northern Lights plus extra for removal of the Fisher Panda! I did and never had trouble again with the Northern Lights 👍
Thomas, That was so very good. I've been trying to justify going "green" ie electric propulsion on my boat, and I have reached the same conclusion as yourself. its complicated, expensive and dangerously limited range. I will rather repower my classic Passport 40 with a basic but modern Beta Diesel engine. Thank you for confirming my conclusions!
I do appreciate your honesty, but what I love is your humor! I worry about those people who without a thought, much less any research actually went with these “green” policies on the word of politicians, who have absolutely no knowledge of engines, fossil fuels or even Electricity!!! Personally, I think they only “pull” for the Industry that’s making HUGE donations to them…..It doesn’t seem to matter whether it actually “works”, or is financially feasible if it’s “possible”. I can’t imagine needing to “move” with no wind, dead batteries and no chance of SUNSHINE….. In my world, that would be like sitting on the side of the road in a “electric” truck pulling four horses, with a “dead”battery, and waiting on a Tornado that’s coming up that same road, the path of least resistance . 🍀
Good points :-) . Have you considered upgrading your engine alternator? It requires a regulator, heat management etc. , but Lithium can be charged with a lot of Amps. In the future, it can probably run as a motor, so you can use electric as a backup :-)
Very good expose….i began ignoring the electric influencers long ago. The Panda? Two cruiser friends yanked and tossed their Panda….thanks, Takk! Andrew
Thank you so much for watching and for your comment as well. Lots of exciting solutions today, however for blue water sailing a well maintained and reliable Diesel engine is still the way to go. Despite what many seems to believe, a Diesel engine is very simple compared to electric solutions. More reliable and safer. Guess my video that’s online on Monday sailing through a cat 1 hurricane will enlighten the need of range and capacity better than any opinions about this topic. All the best
Great insights @SailingwithThomas I’ve been binge watching all of your videos. I really enjoyed this one because you gave practical insights into something I have been weighing for a while. Cheers 😇👍🏽
This is so well done! Hopefully, though, in response to so many anti-green comments, technological improvements will save us in the end from our over-reliance on fossil fuels.
Excellent presentation with great (and often not included) documentation/facts to back up your well reasoned assertions. I agree that generators are not very useful or reliable and a two alternator setup on your Diesel drive system is much more reliable and effective. Also the redundancy of a dual Alternator system is a safety issue.
Hey Thomas. I certainly appreciate the strong safety aspect of your video. We have just bought our new (to us) mono and all those issues are front of mind. Living in Australia solar is a big part of our lives, but we can’t currently be completely green. I’d love to, especially if it were cheaper too. We expect we will upgrade our arch to take a lot more than just a single old panel, but I can’t see the reliable nanni diesel being replaced in my lifetime. We have just traded a camping lifestyle, towing 2 tonnes of camper with 2.2 tonnes of vehicle and I can tell you honestly that the fuel consumption is crazy. I wish we had electric or hydrogen cars to tow this weight. They don’t exist yet. Towing halves fuel economy to about 20 litres diesel per 100km. Even worse going uphill. So in our new environment we use 2 litres per hour with basically every Aussie farmer’s tractor engine, with cheap parts everywhere. Our fallback, if we need one, is a small Kubota generator and extra Jerry cans in the deck. I don’t know if we even need that, until we are doing ocean passages, and I don’t know if we ever will.
A lot of useful information. I would say no due to the lightning alone. The cost to replace all the electronics, even with a redundant isolator setup. Which might not work as intended. Lightning being lightning and all. Great video thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Tomas even EV cars can’t do it ! You are right and don’t let the dreamers change it until technology catches up! It is a theory and growing but not there yet ! ❤ from 🇨🇦
Totally agree, specially for a mono hull, it's impossible to make it work. On some multi hulls, depending on the design, you can quite comfortable run your boat on sailing, solar and Re-gen however you still need back up diesel engines for emergency protection.
Hi Thomas. Thank you for taking us with you on your travels. I have been following you since you bought Be Free in the Med and it has been a great journey. Glad to see you made it out of the Carribean and into the Pacific :) You bring up a lot of good points in both this and the other videos you have made on rigging and generators as well as of cause this one on 'green solutions'. I for one totally agree with you on your view of an electric propulsion solution to cover offshore sailing. I would very much like not to stuck in the middle of a storm and not be able to get out of the way because my battery bank is depleted. I would like to make a suggestion on a future episode if I could. I think it could be interesting to hear your thoughts on insurance. I would assume that your insurance company have changed a couple of times between the Med, your Atlantic crossing, Carribean and now the Pacific. What are your thoughts on the location (country) of your insurance company, governing laws should you need to file a claim, level of coverage, etc? Look forward to the next time.
OMG buddy! You get exactly the point! I work in chemistry field so for me your energy math is pretty abvious. I love your vision about this argument and your bebunking the bullshit of greenwashing! 10 out of ten. Bravo
On a smaller scale, I've come to similar conclusions about batteries and solar panels. In building a small camper to pull behind my wife's Subaru outback wagon, I started with a deep cycle marine battery and hoped to charge it with a solar panel. The few lights were LED, we had a small chest refrigerator and a ceiling vent fan that we didn't need often, because we insulated the camper well. The battery was inadequate and took too long to recharge from the solar panel. I ran a wire from the car to camper to charge the battery from the Subaru alternator as we traveled, and actually had to run the engine when camped on occasion to charge the battery. Upgrading to a lithium battery solved most of the problems for the camper. Now I'm planning to reimagine a small sailboat for lake or coastal sailing (to teach my grandsons to sail - that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it). I hate the noise of gasoline outboard motors, and they can be cantankerous when trying to start them, so I have decided on a small electric outboard, adequate to move the small boat when there is no wind and I simply must move, with a removable battery (that floats if I drop it in the water). The motor is designed to recharge the battery through the propeller when under sail - how effective that will be, I'll have to learn. And I'll carry a sculling oar for when the wind dies and the battery is discharged (or buy a second battery) for those occasions when I simply must move the boat). This is my first time to see one of your videos, and I enjoyed it.
Very good advice. I suppose some people could come up with a case for a diesel and an electric system on one boat. The diesel engine can run as a generator if need be and that electric system is going to be really nice when your around other boats enjoying their moorings etc.
This video is VERY good! I'm a fan of electrical energy and I think it's the best option, as long as energy production is greater than consumption. And that's when I ended up giving up because I'm going to build a 45-foot aluminum sailboat and the math never ends to have at least 300 miles of autonomy. I wanted to get away from the diesel combustion engine, I hate its dirt, noise, inefficiency and maintenance. It is MUCH inferior to the electric motor, but diesel has a MUCH higher energy density. The problem with the electrical system is that the engine is light years more advanced, reliable, light and efficient but the energy to make it work has evolved A LOT, but it is still not enough for bluewater sailboats. A refrigerator works for 30 years, working 8 hours a day, without any maintenance on the motor!!! If I used the sailboat on weekends for short trips I would definitely use the electrical system. In fact, we have sockets on every pier but not petrol. Another thing that bothers me is the thought of not having a sailboat engine and having an engine to generate energy: I take one out and put another one in! An inconsistency. But as I said, I will travel around the world, on long journeys, and I was unable to make the electrical system that I love so much possible! Furthermore, the price of the system to be close to satisfactory was absolutely prohibitive, often a retrofit (which is not my case) can cost the price of the boat, or more, or even much more! So, watching your video was the certainty I needed to hear and confirm all my calculations. I really appreciate all the information, opinions and PRACTICAL experience on the subject. Big hug and good winds!
Thank you so much for watching and even sharing your thoughts and opinions. I would totally gone electric myself but it's as you point out not even close to being a realistic solution. I would not been against saving money on diesel, but for long distance sailing its also a matter of safety. All the best 🙏🏻
Very good information about the reality of solar generation and the cost of the batteries. Even if you add a couple wind generators an electric motor draws too much power. Solar panels and wind generators are great for charging the batteries for radios and navigation. I just watched a video about an older famous British sailor (Jimmy ?) who had a nice catamaran built for the Elcano Challenge but crossing the Atlantic he realized it would not work, just as you said, he can't recharge the batteries as fast as they drain. The obvious answer is to use less electrical power. One way is to sit and wait for the batteries to charge up and the other way is to have a diesel engine.
Everyone is allowed their opinion, but it’s just that. There are no hard correct or incorrect answers, just opinions that correspond to the needs of the individual. There are sailors that cross oceans with electric motors, there are row boaters that use their muscles. It doesn’t matter what your opinion is, as long as you don’t think yours is the only way!
luv your thoughts and reviews on this one.. am dreaming of owning a boat and sailing one day.. you helped me make a choice .. I.C.E. are much reliable than electric... thanks a lot..
Regarding genset being unreliable (Fisher-Panda is always unreliable, AFAIK), but in general many people don¨t know that one need to cool the engine/genset room, otherwise the engine/genset will begin to malfunction. An air-water heat exchanger can move a lot of heat from the engine/genset room to the sea. You will ned a circulation pump for the water, and a fan for moving the air. The heat exchanger usually have an build-in fan. You will also need ducting to take the heat out just below the ceiling of the engine/genset room and blow it out in the bottom of the engine/genset room.
I agree with you, those travelling far and wide want safety and reliability! Jimmy Cornell set out on a 100% electric round-the-world adventure, the adventure only lasted from the south of France to Gibraltar: he gave up! Ohhh and it was on a catamaran.
To be honest, while I have tremendous respect for your experience and I learn a ton from your videos, I think you base your opinion here on anecdotal evidence. The fact that your genset failed in thunderstorm most likely means the circuitry wasn't designed to be bulletproof or was faulty. A circuit with multiple levels of redundant surge protections (that includes SPDs) with good insulation should have prevented that from happening. I mean, your boat wasn't even directly struck by the lightning and your genset's motherboard still got fried. Normally, the faraday cage effect should protect your electrical equipment from outside surges when not connected to the shore. Based on what you say, your genset could have gotten fried even at a marina if a light struck theirs installation. So saying the genset is unreliable is like saying your TV was at fault because it got fried during the thunderstorm. More importantly, any modern marine diesel engine still has an ECU that could also get fried. You can't use it without it. You can't buy a new boat without it. Yours wasn't fried because either you have an older engine or apparently it was insulated better, but if a surge reached your engine's throttle, you could have had a different outcome, still. As such, cherry-picking genset here is, to me, the anecdotal evidence I mentioned. I absolutely am not saying you were at fault here, or that you're wrong in general, but without some insight into how robust your electrical system was or wasn't, it all comes of as fear mongering, I am afraid. Did you have lightning rods? Conductive path? Grounding plate? Were metal sailing components bonded and grounded? Were each components protected with individual surge breakers and the system overall - especially the branches/sections potentially exposed to lightnings - using SPDs? Do you periodically test the grounding for resistance? There's a ton that can and should be done to protect a boat from overvoltage/overcurrent and there's no reason why a system can't be safe and reliable - including having a spare, smaller genset stored offline (disconnected) to help if everything else fails. And lastly, in order to be completely fair, you would have to also consider how diesel engines are way less reliable than the electric ones and how much more likely are they to fail than a boat getting struck.
Finally, someone with common sense and actual knowledge. I would not argue with Thomas regarding sailing, but his numbers and comparisons were absolutely wrong. In an other video he argued people speaking about double rudder have no actual experience about them. Now he talks about full electric or hybrid without he having actual experience and knowledge about them! I agree, any diesel or petrol engine is way less reliable than a full electric. Electric requires also way less maintenance. Especially circumnavigating, when you need to buy dirty contaminated fuel, or yours goes old and destroys your engine. Also, what he misses completely is you can change the way you plan your passage, in order to minimise the need of using the engine. You do not need 700KW! What a crazy claim! You also do not need to recharge all your batteries every day! And just because he has bought a terrible alternator (why if he claims to be so knowledgable???) it does not mean all alternators are terrible. What I agree on is hybrids are not a good concept, even in cars it is strongly questionable. Perhaps for cars used mostly in a city. Where fully electric again makes 1000x more sense. In conclusion, I think a fully electric boat, where you sized your battery and solar panels well, built a reliable electric system, and you plan your trips to avoid "getthereitis", is the way to go.
Hey my friend! Glad you enjoyed this one. I believe it’s always good to see things from several angles and trying to enlighten even political incorrect opinions. The biggest difference from driving electric at land vs out the deep blue is you are left alone. You just can’t pull over and wait for assistance. Coastal sailing versus offshore sailing is a different ballgame. My most important takeaway from decades at sea and search and rescue (SAR) is you wanna be conservative. Pilot project and young technology is not what you wanna depend on, even though it can sometimes be difficult not to want it. End of the day I believe no one can tell you what’s right for you. That’s your own decision and choice because no one has the full picture like you have from your position. It’s like all the comments I get from “experts” almost trying to dumb me down for not having a hydro/wind vane. Not knowing my boat is to heavy, to big and to fast. Just as an example of what works for you might be disqualified for me. Thank you so much for your support and for being here🙏🏻
Hello, I think you have been spot on with the majority of your points. Serial hybrid makes no sense for long distance cruising, neither does an AC Coupled hybrid system for the vast majority of cases, However if you have a boat designed for hybrid operations which is DC coupled it makes a lot of sense especially with the increase in redundancy and efficiency gained with variable hotel loads. If your following the trade winds the ability to regen power is pretty impressive and should enable you to motor on pure electric when required, P.S all of those variable speed generators don't make sense for hybrid systems as you should size the generator to be constantly loaded at 80% charging the battery to match the most efficient fuel burn I have seen a few studies on fuel saving ranging from 23% to 65%. On the point of lighting strikes it is a serious issue but an issue with tons of solutions, a properly designed system will be fine and if it is not you still have a parallel diesel engine which can work by itself unaffected as it has no sensitive electronics to be damaged by the lightning surge. The main issue in my mind as you so accurately point out is the increased capital costs which is likely to pay off for the vast majority of sailor within a few years. Sadly I think the vast majority of yacht owners will not sail if its not perfect conditions and instead use there engines, in which case hybrid makes less sense.
These basic, practical observations apply to “green solutions” in many other contexts outside of sailing, as well. It will just take time for this to be widely recognized despite our feelings.
Subbed. I only sail my 20 foot Nordica locally. It has a single cylinder diesel. At one point I thought about going electric but a few very simple calculation on a scrap of paper soon changed my mind. I’ll stick to the diesel. As you say electric is an expensive illusion.
Excellent analysis Thomas..😅..I agree. There is no substitute to cubic capacity of a diesel engine and fuel storage.I hope you went north to avoid Cyclone Kirrily.Best regards and a safe passage.
Agree with you 100% about the electric/hybrid motors. We do manage to live comfortably totally off grid in the SW Pacific with 1600W of solar and 600AHr of Lithium batteries.
Fanastic episode Thomas. We are just about pick up our new cat in France. This was a major discussion during the spec stage. We opted to stay with diesel after much discussion with people who knew more than me. Only bummer is we put in a Fischer Panda generator. Lets hope they have improved.
Thomas what a great video. One of the reasons I like your Chanel is the experience, knowledge and no nonsense approach that you bring to the table. I would be very interested in your view on the Beta marine diesel hybrid solution? They also have a Yanmar option as well. TO me it seems to tick all the box's but would love to hear your thoughts.
Hi Thomas, great explanation. You can explain a different hybrid system with an electric engine on the shaft next to the engine. This will solve most problems. The purpose is not being green but able to motorsail without noise and to enter/leave harbours without fumes. Creating apparent wind with an electric engine works very well and allows you to sail in little wind where you would normally start your engine. I guess this is not related to safety so perhaps a topic for a next time. Rgds, Berend sv Lyrics
I watched the video and can agree with some of the points. I am going hybrid way and intended to go full renewable just because it seems interesting to me ,it definitely not easy or cheap, diesel engine definitely is lot more simple and robust I have to agree with that. I am surprised about fact diesel generator is so unreliable, I would expect they are more efficient and low service, well I lerned something new . I have cheap Chapion 1.8kw 4 stroke generator as my eletric back up then have plan to install 1.2kw solar , and will have 28kw battery pack .
Something not considered by most is prevailing wind and which way the boat will face relative to the panels and sun. For instance in the san blas islands you are mostly facing north. This means that you will have only half the panels getting sun in the morning and late afternoon and only usable amounts if you can tilt them. You only fire on all panels mid day for a few hours. You may get little or no exposure if the tide, current, or wind conspire against you when you anchor or are under way.
How would you assess Sailing Uma? They are smaller, but they seem to be managing an electric solution? And yes, your honest approach is much appreciated!
HaHa ! You Nailed It! ..I'm Impressed By Your Candid No Holds Barred Critique and Analysis ..You Certainly have Influenced my Thoughts on the Subject ...But are there any Generators " Out There " That You might Consider ? ie A Comparitive in depth look at the Market ...? Thanks and Just Subscribed 👍
Plukky needs to watch this,he is doing the elcano challenge fully electric catamaran building at the moment. Thank you Thomas very informative this episode ,safe sailing,oh just a thought what is your planning with the Indian Ocean are you going around Afrika?
@@franksmith137 true?that guy is so busy buying and selling boats I can’t keep up with him,when Plukky had the lightning strike it welded the gearbox gears together,imagine an electric motor.
Good stuff… I think the problem is the 22T vessel… when yachts weigh 10tone sit on top of the water and are 60ft long I think the Elextric model works.
I have had some experience with Kubota engines and they make a very good generator but I agree you’re burning fuel one way or another . I would rather have the safety Of my Yanmar That is naturally aspirated . I think your advice to have the engine running during a thunderstorm is excellent. Yes once a diesel gets started, it likes to just keep running.
This is a sailor doing TH-cam, not a TH-camr out sailing.
Good stuff Thomas, you made me come to a conclusion for my next boat.
It's good info but he only mentioned the "series hybrid" option. Look into "parallel hybrid" as an alternative. it's the best of all worlds.
I don’t comment very much, but this I will say this is why this channel is my favorite of them all. Thomas is a very knowledgeable sailor, in seamanship and technical. I always look forward to new episodes knowing I will learn more about sailing. Thanks for sharing Thomas 💪🏽🫶🏽🤙🏽
Very well said! I completely agree 😇👍🏽
I do t sea how is he knowledgeable then he never haved an electric. Also what he is talking make no sense at all. Totaly mialiding information. Look sailing Vagabond. I met then in culatra portugal. They also was against alectric engine. Look them now. Proud of the electric engine.
I haven't watched recent La Vagabond episodes, but the last one I saw, he was afraid of getting into trouble with only an electric engine, as his diesel engine was getting replaced. That is inspite of having a very fast boat that would optimize hydrogeneration. I'm interested in how they and sailing with the wynns do long term.@@SailingTerra
@@SailingTerraI dont think you ever used solar power for a house with full comfort,then you know that it’s too much in summertime and by far not enough in wintertimes
How can you get enough solar power on a boat,shadow masts cables wrong direction continues….
It should be nice but it’s just dreaming about,Thomas explain in simple words the truth
@@marcvandaele1878 I have 3000w solar on my boat. 99%i use only my electric engine. I have aways 100%battery using all haushold units like 140liter samsung fridge, washing machine and everthink electric. Powered with 5kw inverter. Never problem with power. 50kw battery where I want to ubgrade to more in future.
Outstanding explanation Thomas, thank you. I laughed when you said I might as well paint my boat Green, 🤣😂🤣😂🤣.
This is an absolutely EXCELLENT film Thomas. This film alone deserves to bring in MANY subs. So well done. Thank you.
After sailing half way around the world I agree completely. We are now in Thailand and motor sailing is a part of life in this part of the world. Sailing Aquarius just lost their masts crossing the Atlantic and still have 1000 miles to get to safely. They just received 260ltrs of diesel so now they can reach Martinique. Imagine trying to get battery power dropped off so your electric motor can get you to safety!
🤣
Well yeah that would be the counter to it, you dont need a delivery lol. good point. If you cant get the delivery, you are screwed if you have fossil fuel only. I didnt even think about that.
Yeah but Diesel will give you Electrical Power, you got the Sun, you got the Wind. Do you have the Imagination?
There is a minor flaw in you're argument @@JoeKyser when the mast comes down it is highly likely that your solar is going to get bashed up, and where does this leave you ?
@@nooneswedish5142 Very few sailboats have their solar panels attached to the mast.
Best part about Thomas, he calls it like he believes it, even when it comes to his preference in equipment. Don’t change or ever apologize. Anyone who gives you a hard time for giving your expertise is foolish! Don’t change. Love your videos.
The evidence of life is change!! If you don't welcome it you'll be fighting a loosing battle!!
Good to hear the voice of reason, regarding an auxiliary engine as a safety device, rather than a virtue signaling toy.
As an electrical engineer, I concur. My long distance sails are only 1200nm but it doesn’t take long for conditions to become a problem. Thank you for doing this well informed video.
I agree. Although I'd prefer he tightened up the precision of his terminology and be consistent. At 5:55 he said "2.5 kilowatts of energy". Of course (as you will be aware as an elec eng) ENERGY is not measured in kilowatts, POWER is measured in kW. For the benefit of other viewers, power is the rate that energy is produced per unit of time, 1 kilowatt is defined as 1 kilojoule of energy per second. So for, say, 10 hours of useable daylight, each panel produces about 250 Watts of power every hour (250W x 10h/day = 2500Wh/day which is 2.5kWh/day). What I'm suspecting is that Thomas meant to say 2.5 kWh/day - kilowatt hours per day - which IS an expression of DAILY energy production, and much more useful as you don't have to get into the weeds of hourly fluctuations. (Note: there are other calculations embedded in that number that we're not shown, like total daylight hours, and some value of how solar production varies through the day. Admittedly that might be beyond the scope of what he wished to do here.) But, at minimum, I'd like to see him post the rated POWER of each panel - in WATTS or KILOWATTS, if he can. As for the rest of the video, it's excellent. Especially enjoyed his remarks about speed loss due to currents, and the need for adequate range. But I think his generator headaches might be largely due to an inferior brand.
@@Cdesousa43 someone calculated the amount of solar cells and wind fams necessary to convert the USA to renewable energy and it would cover most of the West including TX I think this was 2020 ish no oil and ng is still the way to go.
Finally somebody simply adds up the numbers. Thank you for drawing the conclusions that follow from a day to day perspective.
Thanks for separating the illusion of being “green” from the realistic needs of managing risk at sea.
Thomas, I love your honest approach. This video is BRILLIANT. Honesty that stepped on toes, which is backed up by ocean crossing data, is necessary to drive home your message. The problems the sailing channels who have gone this route are experiencing is only the tip of the iceberg. I enjoyed the humor, too. Thank you for sharing.
Great video Thomas, with your background your opinion on safety is always well founded and appreciated, it’s easy to get carried along with the flow when your own research and maths would take another path.
Great video Thomas. I appreciate you share your honest opinions about things you have experienced your self. I'm glad I sail a much smaller boat that I love to keep as loyal as possible to KISS. I also for the moment do pretty much only coastal sailing around Denmark, Sweden, Norway. Although my dream is to sail the pacific, the fact of 210 rain days a year...hmmmm. Yes, the temperatures area high down there even when it is raining compares to what we have here in Scandinavia. But as you must know your self, we have amazing cruising grounds in Scandinavia which I intend to explore more in the coming years. Sail safe
Yes it rains nearly every day in the tropics, but only a short time in the afternoon, the rest of the day will be sunny or lightly clouded.
That was a gutsy and detailed discussion. I applaud your through research and effective use of graphics.
Since I'm old and old-school, you won't be surprised that I, over 45 years of owning a sloop and cruising,
never could see the practicality of the " green solution". So, I use a little dinosaur squeezings; far less that my friends on trawlers use on a typical cruise.
You should be on international television...Brilliant !!!
Your Scandinavian neighbour Mads from Sail Life channel, had pretty much same experience with Fisher Panda, as you. Failure after failure and worst part, their support sucks.
Thanks for the good, honest and instructional video Thomas, keep up a good work!
No green boat for me. I am an electric engineer and l hve been working as an electrician since l was 15 year. I am 3. generation and l am now 67 years old. I totaly agree with you Thomas. Beste hilsner fra Sandefjord, Terje Bjørge
Very interesting and quite eye opening 👁️👁️! Thnx Thomas for staying to your own truth and standards 🙏🏽
Thank you my friend 🙏🏻 Happy to know you enjoyed this slightly on the side video. Thank you for being here! Cheers 🍻
In my opinion it’s totally about sailing with a mindset on security.
En meget god og realistisk gjennomgang.
You have done an excellent analysis and I agree fully with you. For as much as we would like it to be, the electric option is not good. Those you promote electric boats are somewhat biased and did not experienced what you did. Thanks and good continuation of your trip.
Richard
Diesel electric locomotives are a thing. He's complaining about a diesel generator while relying on a diesel engine. Both require a lot of TLC. An electric system, on the other hand, requires the occasional dusting (and a reasonable Faraday cage). Also, you don't replace diesel with batteries, solar, or wind. If you need to run long and hard I would think you would need a lot of diesel and a good generator and/or enough wind and sun to provide power from solar and regen, enough batteries to take it, and an electric motor to ensure a minimum speed.
I have to disagree a little. No offense! 😊
First of all, the speeds and ranges.
If you go with electric boat, you sail differently. You have to know your range and boat and its behavior. Then you don't even assume to have 1000NM range or even close. You go by the weather even more. Stay in the calm for a few days or weeks even. Sailing has been done for thousands of years. Diesel engines have existed like 50-60 years. So it's kind of going little bit back in time in a way and closer to nature. Not all boats have engine at all even now.
Than the speed. With electic, you go slower. In my experience and knowledge gained, around 4 knots is sensible max speed to go. Over that, the consumption raises dramatically with just a small speed gain.
Even larger boat can go 3-4 knots with maybe only 3-5kw of power. That means, that with sensible amount of solar, the range is actually almost unlimited. Without generator at all.
Of course, there's situations that will require more power for a while (like strong currents). But it comes to the fact that you have to know your boat and avoid going into that kind of situations in a first place.
Than the technical side. Electric motor is perhaps the simplest device there is. There's really no maintenance, they are very cheap (so cheap you can buy one as spare). All you really need is the motor, controller and batteries. So for the case of lightning strike - you can simply have few spares on board in safe place. (And I can say, lightning is one of the thing I'm most concerned!)
--> That means: no fancy ready-to-go systems. Oceanvolt is great, but their price is just out of this world (especially the batteries!). I'd say that doing things DIY (which you should if you're going for long distance cruising anyway), you can make full electric system with even decent amount of batteries for 10K.
Then there's regen. If done right, electric system charges your batteries every time you sail. That actually should be essential feature that should work well to make electric system really usable.
Which brings us to the question. Is sails the main propulsion or the diesel engine? Would it actually be just that much more economical to ditch the whole rig, sails and stuff (like tens of thousands) and just buy diesel instead? (sails+rig are actually quite expensive/NM!)
One thing I totally agree though! Hybrid systems are waste of money. If there's a generator/engine, it should be just a backup of backups. All diesel engines are complicated machines that require a lot of supportive systems to function reliably - so with hybrid system you don't really gain anything, just making it more complicated and maybe giving false feeling of security.
Glad to see someone else has my concerns about this new trend. I believe it only end in tears. 👍
Thanks Thomas, for your clear and honest explanation!
Love your research to back up what you think,and electric or hybrid is not reliable or powerful enough when you need it the most.I watch spoondrifters and it is a solar-hybrid electric powered 46 foot Morgan.They go 3 knots at best when it’s dead calm with no wind or current they run a diesel generator that’s about 8 kw to power the electric propulsion motor.They also run a Honda gas generator sometimes.They have had so many problems with this system including almost catching on fire.The electric motor will run hot and it’s always something wrong with the system.Your video was totally accurate with the data to back it up.I grew up building boats with my dad and have built commercial shrimp boats for myself so understand what works and what doesn’t too.A reliable diesel is priceless in bad weather even at anchor and on passages.l would like your honest opinion of Panda Fisher generators………😂😂.Hope everyone will watch this valuable video and change their ideas and opinions on electric/hybrid propulsion.Great as always Thomas 👍👍👍👍👍👍💯😊
Hi, thanks for your honest opinion, this obsession with going green put safety at risk. The diesel is the way to go but better design one need to be put forward like the diesel with opposed pistons with 2 crankshaft that generate more than 50% efficiency. Electric motors are good to go to remote protected areas, just imagine getting a lighting strike on your sailboat and having all of it going literally up in smoke! You sure going to be green , ya green with envy with your neighbor running his DIESEL!!!
Meget realistisk og god gjennomgang som virkelig setter ting i perspektiv , fra deg som er på tur er dette meget troverdig i motsetning til grafene fra leverandører av helelektriske løsninger, god tur videre , stay safe and fair winds ! :-)
Hi there Thomas. After living onboard for 25 years, and being a marine engineer. May I draw your attention to Beta marine hybrid diesel engines. This system would solve many of the issues you mention.
Also, I don't think anyone with a hybrid system and a large battery bank would expect to be able to charge their bank from empty to full in ONE day via solar power!
Unrealistic...
I do appreciate your Chanel, and have gained much from you experiences in areas I wish to go in the future.
Best regards. Mark.
I am not a sailor yet, but an automotive engineer. A parallel hybrid system like the beta marine one would be the only viable solution for a sailing yacht in my opinion, if hybrid is wanted. I would argue such a system could even increase safety, because you could still have manuverability by propeller in port/near shore in case of an main engine failure. But I am not sure about the effectiveness of the proposed way of operating it. Because of the losses while charging and depleating a battery there is typically not seen a huge benefit if any in fuel consumption due to increased load on the main engine. At least that is the case in plug-in hybrid cars and why they typically are not operated like this. The main benefits I see in such a system is the ability to generate electricity with the propeller, while sailing independent of fuel and sun. And the reduced noise, so I would use the electric engine while motorsailing mainly 5-8 hours a night to get more comfortable sleep.
Having looked at these there are two problems: firstly price 3 to 4 times price of diesel engine, secondly they are tied up with new builds- no availability for retrofitting.
@benh9928 Benh. The Beta marine hybrid diesel electric is completely able to be retrofitted when replacing ones current diesel.
Fully aware they can be retrofitted, but first you have to be able to get one. They are fully booked for a long time ahead for new builds, at least in Europe, so you can't get one if you wanted to
@@benh9928 In my mind that means a lot. Customers must be very pleased with their equipment.
Having cruised for 25 yrs, there is a reason they my built in diesel tankage is 270 Gallons! That’s without any jugs. Love it. And I also have a Honda 2000. For back up. And of course solar for general boat systems. I have nearly 1500 km range under power.
Thank you so much for watching and for sharing your experience as well 🙏🏻
All the best ⛵️
Our boat came with a Fisher Panda and I tried trading it in for a Northern Lights. They explained me I had to pay full price on the Northern Lights plus extra for removal of the Fisher Panda! I did and never had trouble again with the Northern Lights 👍
Thomas, That was so very good. I've been trying to justify going "green" ie electric propulsion on my boat, and I have reached the same conclusion as yourself. its complicated, expensive and dangerously limited range. I will rather repower my classic Passport 40 with a basic but modern Beta Diesel engine. Thank you for confirming my conclusions!
100 % TRUTH! Finally. Well presented, Thank you Thomas
Add in the destructive mining of raw materials and the energy to process them into batteries!
This episode is spot on with reality.
I agree with you 100% based on your examples.
I do appreciate your honesty, but what I love is your humor! I worry about those people who without a thought, much less any research actually went with these “green” policies on the word of politicians, who have absolutely no knowledge of engines, fossil fuels or even Electricity!!! Personally, I think they only “pull” for the Industry that’s making HUGE donations to them…..It doesn’t seem to matter whether it actually “works”, or is financially feasible if it’s “possible”. I can’t imagine needing to “move” with no wind, dead batteries and no chance of SUNSHINE….. In my world, that would be like sitting on the side of the road in a “electric” truck pulling four horses, with a “dead”battery, and waiting on a Tornado that’s coming up that same road, the path of least resistance . 🍀
I appreciate your perspective here. Take care Thomas. Cheers 🍻 🌴⛵️🌞
Nicely put Thomas. 👌
You speak the truth. No doubt about it. Thank you.
Good points :-) . Have you considered upgrading your engine alternator? It requires a regulator, heat management etc. , but Lithium can be charged with a lot of Amps.
In the future, it can probably run as a motor, so you can use electric as a backup :-)
Very good expose….i began ignoring the electric influencers long ago. The Panda? Two cruiser friends yanked and tossed their Panda….thanks, Takk! Andrew
Thank you Thomas, I was just seriously contemplating electrical propulsion, but no more, diesel is still the king.
Thank you so much for watching and for your comment as well. Lots of exciting solutions today, however for blue water sailing a well maintained and reliable Diesel engine is still the way to go. Despite what many seems to believe, a Diesel engine is very simple compared to electric solutions. More reliable and safer. Guess my video that’s online on Monday sailing through a cat 1 hurricane will enlighten the need of range and capacity better than any opinions about this topic.
All the best
Totally agree!!Good video!!
We are watching & we are with you Thomas! Strong Ship with strong Norwegian at the helm! Stay safe!
Really appreciate the honest comparison...👍
Personally, I trust your opinion based on experience .. Thank you for sharing Thomas ..!!
Thanks for breaking it down, Thomas. Very interesting and informative.
Your best Video ever, Thank you Thomas
Yes sir you are totally correct. Electric battery supply for sailing so not good. Even for auto's it's a fools errand. Thanks for this video.
Great insights @SailingwithThomas I’ve been binge watching all of your videos. I really enjoyed this one because you gave practical insights into something I have been weighing for a while. Cheers 😇👍🏽
This is so well done! Hopefully, though, in response to so many anti-green comments, technological improvements will save us in the end from our over-reliance on fossil fuels.
Excellent presentation with great (and often not included) documentation/facts to back up your well reasoned assertions. I agree that generators are not very useful or reliable and a two alternator setup on your Diesel drive system is much more reliable and effective. Also the redundancy of a dual Alternator system is a safety issue.
You have lived it Thomas, speak your truth!
You are 100% right
Hey Thomas.
I certainly appreciate the strong safety aspect of your video. We have just bought our new (to us) mono and all those issues are front of mind. Living in Australia solar is a big part of our lives, but we can’t currently be completely green. I’d love to, especially if it were cheaper too.
We expect we will upgrade our arch to take a lot more than just a single old panel, but I can’t see the reliable nanni diesel being replaced in my lifetime.
We have just traded a camping lifestyle, towing 2 tonnes of camper with 2.2 tonnes of vehicle and I can tell you honestly that the fuel consumption is crazy. I wish we had electric or hydrogen cars to tow this weight. They don’t exist yet. Towing halves fuel economy to about 20 litres diesel per 100km. Even worse going uphill.
So in our new environment we use 2 litres per hour with basically every Aussie farmer’s tractor engine, with cheap parts everywhere.
Our fallback, if we need one, is a small Kubota generator and extra Jerry cans in the deck. I don’t know if we even need that, until we are doing ocean passages, and I don’t know if we ever will.
A lot of useful information. I would say no due to the lightning alone. The cost to replace all the electronics, even with a redundant isolator setup. Which might not work as intended. Lightning being lightning and all. Great video thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Tomas even EV cars can’t do it !
You are right and don’t let the dreamers change it until technology catches up!
It is a theory and growing but not there yet !
❤ from 🇨🇦
Totally agree, specially for a mono hull, it's impossible to make it work.
On some multi hulls, depending on the design, you can quite comfortable run your boat on sailing, solar and Re-gen however you still need back up diesel engines for emergency protection.
Hi Thomas. Thank you for taking us with you on your travels. I have been following you since you bought Be Free in the Med and it has been a great journey. Glad to see you made it out of the Carribean and into the Pacific :)
You bring up a lot of good points in both this and the other videos you have made on rigging and generators as well as of cause this one on 'green solutions'. I for one totally agree with you on your view of an electric propulsion solution to cover offshore sailing. I would very much like not to stuck in the middle of a storm and not be able to get out of the way because my battery bank is depleted.
I would like to make a suggestion on a future episode if I could. I think it could be interesting to hear your thoughts on insurance. I would assume that your insurance company have changed a couple of times between the Med, your Atlantic crossing, Carribean and now the Pacific. What are your thoughts on the location (country) of your insurance company, governing laws should you need to file a claim, level of coverage, etc?
Look forward to the next time.
I agree with you 100%, the technology is just not there yet.
Cheers
thanks for a great explanation. Have now shelved the thoughts of an all electric boat.
OMG buddy! You get exactly the point! I work in chemistry field so for me your energy math is pretty abvious. I love your vision about this argument and your bebunking the bullshit of greenwashing! 10 out of ten. Bravo
I 100% support dinosaur juice. They died for our sake. Respect them.
On a smaller scale, I've come to similar conclusions about batteries and solar panels. In building a small camper to pull behind my wife's Subaru outback wagon, I started with a deep cycle marine battery and hoped to charge it with a solar panel. The few lights were LED, we had a small chest refrigerator and a ceiling vent fan that we didn't need often, because we insulated the camper well. The battery was inadequate and took too long to recharge from the solar panel. I ran a wire from the car to camper to charge the battery from the Subaru alternator as we traveled, and actually had to run the engine when camped on occasion to charge the battery. Upgrading to a lithium battery solved most of the problems for the camper.
Now I'm planning to reimagine a small sailboat for lake or coastal sailing (to teach my grandsons to sail - that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it). I hate the noise of gasoline outboard motors, and they can be cantankerous when trying to start them, so I have decided on a small electric outboard, adequate to move the small boat when there is no wind and I simply must move, with a removable battery (that floats if I drop it in the water). The motor is designed to recharge the battery through the propeller when under sail - how effective that will be, I'll have to learn. And I'll carry a sculling oar for when the wind dies and the battery is discharged (or buy a second battery) for those occasions when I simply must move the boat).
This is my first time to see one of your videos, and I enjoyed it.
Very good advice. I suppose some people could come up with a case for a diesel and an electric system on one boat. The diesel engine can run as a generator if need be and that electric system is going to be really nice when your around other boats enjoying their moorings etc.
This video is VERY good!
I'm a fan of electrical energy and I think it's the best option, as long as energy production is greater than consumption. And that's when I ended up giving up because I'm going to build a 45-foot aluminum sailboat and the math never ends to have at least 300 miles of autonomy. I wanted to get away from the diesel combustion engine, I hate its dirt, noise, inefficiency and maintenance. It is MUCH inferior to the electric motor, but diesel has a MUCH higher energy density. The problem with the electrical system is that the engine is light years more advanced, reliable, light and efficient but the energy to make it work has evolved A LOT, but it is still not enough for bluewater sailboats. A refrigerator works for 30 years, working 8 hours a day, without any maintenance on the motor!!! If I used the sailboat on weekends for short trips I would definitely use the electrical system. In fact, we have sockets on every pier but not petrol.
Another thing that bothers me is the thought of not having a sailboat engine and having an engine to generate energy: I take one out and put another one in! An inconsistency.
But as I said, I will travel around the world, on long journeys, and I was unable to make the electrical system that I love so much possible! Furthermore, the price of the system to be close to satisfactory was absolutely prohibitive, often a retrofit (which is not my case) can cost the price of the boat, or more, or even much more!
So, watching your video was the certainty I needed to hear and confirm all my calculations.
I really appreciate all the information, opinions and PRACTICAL experience on the subject.
Big hug and good winds!
Thank you so much for watching and even sharing your thoughts and opinions. I would totally gone electric myself but it's as you point out not even close to being a realistic solution.
I would not been against saving money on diesel, but for long distance sailing its also a matter of safety.
All the best 🙏🏻
Very good information about the reality of solar generation and the cost of the batteries.
Even if you add a couple wind generators an electric motor draws too much power.
Solar panels and wind generators are great for charging the batteries for radios and navigation.
I just watched a video about an older famous British sailor (Jimmy ?) who had a nice catamaran built for the Elcano Challenge but crossing the Atlantic he realized it would not work, just as you said, he can't recharge the batteries as fast as they drain.
The obvious answer is to use less electrical power.
One way is to sit and wait for the batteries to charge up and the other way is to have a diesel engine.
Thank you for your insight, really appreiated, is always good to recicved an alternelt view,. Again, thank you very much.
Everyone is allowed their opinion, but it’s just that. There are no hard correct or incorrect answers, just opinions that correspond to the needs of the individual. There are sailors that cross oceans with electric motors, there are row boaters that use their muscles. It doesn’t matter what your opinion is, as long as you don’t think yours is the only way!
luv your thoughts and reviews on this one.. am dreaming of owning a boat and sailing one day.. you helped me make a choice .. I.C.E. are much reliable than electric... thanks a lot..
Thank you so much for watching and for sharing your dreams. All the best ⛵️
Regarding genset being unreliable (Fisher-Panda is always unreliable, AFAIK), but in general many people don¨t know that one need to cool the engine/genset room, otherwise the engine/genset will begin to malfunction.
An air-water heat exchanger can move a lot of heat from the engine/genset room to the sea. You will ned a circulation pump for the water, and a fan for moving the air. The heat exchanger usually have an build-in fan. You will also need ducting to take the heat out just below the ceiling of the engine/genset room and blow it out in the bottom of the engine/genset room.
I agree with you, those travelling far and wide want safety and reliability! Jimmy Cornell set out on a 100% electric round-the-world adventure, the adventure only lasted from the south of France to Gibraltar: he gave up! Ohhh and it was on a catamaran.
To be honest, while I have tremendous respect for your experience and I learn a ton from your videos, I think you base your opinion here on anecdotal evidence. The fact that your genset failed in thunderstorm most likely means the circuitry wasn't designed to be bulletproof or was faulty. A circuit with multiple levels of redundant surge protections (that includes SPDs) with good insulation should have prevented that from happening. I mean, your boat wasn't even directly struck by the lightning and your genset's motherboard still got fried. Normally, the faraday cage effect should protect your electrical equipment from outside surges when not connected to the shore. Based on what you say, your genset could have gotten fried even at a marina if a light struck theirs installation. So saying the genset is unreliable is like saying your TV was at fault because it got fried during the thunderstorm.
More importantly, any modern marine diesel engine still has an ECU that could also get fried. You can't use it without it. You can't buy a new boat without it. Yours wasn't fried because either you have an older engine or apparently it was insulated better, but if a surge reached your engine's throttle, you could have had a different outcome, still. As such, cherry-picking genset here is, to me, the anecdotal evidence I mentioned. I absolutely am not saying you were at fault here, or that you're wrong in general, but without some insight into how robust your electrical system was or wasn't, it all comes of as fear mongering, I am afraid. Did you have lightning rods? Conductive path? Grounding plate? Were metal sailing components bonded and grounded? Were each components protected with individual surge breakers and the system overall - especially the branches/sections potentially exposed to lightnings - using SPDs? Do you periodically test the grounding for resistance?
There's a ton that can and should be done to protect a boat from overvoltage/overcurrent and there's no reason why a system can't be safe and reliable - including having a spare, smaller genset stored offline (disconnected) to help if everything else fails. And lastly, in order to be completely fair, you would have to also consider how diesel engines are way less reliable than the electric ones and how much more likely are they to fail than a boat getting struck.
Finally, someone with common sense and actual knowledge. I would not argue with Thomas regarding sailing, but his numbers and comparisons were absolutely wrong.
In an other video he argued people speaking about double rudder have no actual experience about them. Now he talks about full electric or hybrid without he having actual experience and knowledge about them!
I agree, any diesel or petrol engine is way less reliable than a full electric. Electric requires also way less maintenance. Especially circumnavigating, when you need to buy dirty contaminated fuel, or yours goes old and destroys your engine.
Also, what he misses completely is you can change the way you plan your passage, in order to minimise the need of using the engine. You do not need 700KW! What a crazy claim!
You also do not need to recharge all your batteries every day! And just because he has bought a terrible alternator (why if he claims to be so knowledgable???) it does not mean all alternators are terrible.
What I agree on is hybrids are not a good concept, even in cars it is strongly questionable. Perhaps for cars used mostly in a city. Where fully electric again makes 1000x more sense.
In conclusion, I think a fully electric boat, where you sized your battery and solar panels well, built a reliable electric system, and you plan your trips to avoid "getthereitis", is the way to go.
Hey Thomas, ChillyWilly here, I am always open to negative research, especially if it can save my life!
Hey my friend! Glad you enjoyed this one. I believe it’s always good to see things from several angles and trying to enlighten even political incorrect opinions. The biggest difference from driving electric at land vs out the deep blue is you are left alone. You just can’t pull over and wait for assistance. Coastal sailing versus offshore sailing is a different ballgame. My most important takeaway from decades at sea and search and rescue (SAR) is you wanna be conservative. Pilot project and young technology is not what you wanna depend on, even though it can sometimes be difficult not to want it. End of the day I believe no one can tell you what’s right for you. That’s your own decision and choice because no one has the full picture like you have from your position. It’s like all the comments I get from “experts” almost trying to dumb me down for not having a hydro/wind vane. Not knowing my boat is to heavy, to big and to fast. Just as an example of what works for you might be disqualified for me. Thank you so much for your support and for being here🙏🏻
Hello, I think you have been spot on with the majority of your points. Serial hybrid makes no sense for long distance cruising, neither does an AC Coupled hybrid system for the vast majority of cases, However if you have a boat designed for hybrid operations which is DC coupled it makes a lot of sense especially with the increase in redundancy and efficiency gained with variable hotel loads. If your following the trade winds the ability to regen power is pretty impressive and should enable you to motor on pure electric when required, P.S all of those variable speed generators don't make sense for hybrid systems as you should size the generator to be constantly loaded at 80% charging the battery to match the most efficient fuel burn I have seen a few studies on fuel saving ranging from 23% to 65%. On the point of lighting strikes it is a serious issue but an issue with tons of solutions, a properly designed system will be fine and if it is not you still have a parallel diesel engine which can work by itself unaffected as it has no sensitive electronics to be damaged by the lightning surge. The main issue in my mind as you so accurately point out is the increased capital costs which is likely to pay off for the vast majority of sailor within a few years. Sadly I think the vast majority of yacht owners will not sail if its not perfect conditions and instead use there engines, in which case hybrid makes less sense.
Thank you so much for watching and for your comment as well.
All the best
Your sharing of info is GREATLY APPRECIATED !
Thank you so much for watching and for your kind words as well 🙏🏻
These basic, practical observations apply to “green solutions” in many other contexts outside of sailing, as well. It will just take time for this to be widely recognized despite our feelings.
Subbed. I only sail my 20 foot Nordica locally. It has a single cylinder diesel. At one point I thought about going electric but a few very simple calculation on a scrap of paper soon changed my mind. I’ll stick to the diesel. As you say electric is an expensive illusion.
You answered a lot of my questions. Thank you
Muy acertado, ahora que muchos youtuberos náuticos están haciendo propaganda de los sistemas híbridos.
Excellent analysis Thomas..😅..I agree. There is no substitute to cubic capacity of a diesel engine and fuel storage.I hope you went north to avoid Cyclone Kirrily.Best regards and a safe passage.
Veldig bra Thomas. Jeg holder meg til vakre Norske kysten. And keeping it simple 😎👨🏼✈️
Agree with you 100% about the electric/hybrid motors. We do manage to live comfortably totally off grid in the SW Pacific with 1600W of solar and 600AHr of Lithium batteries.
Fanastic episode Thomas. We are just about pick up our new cat in France. This was a major discussion during the spec stage. We opted to stay with diesel after much discussion with people who knew more than me. Only bummer is we put in a Fischer Panda generator. Lets hope they have improved.
Excellent honest assessment thank you
Thomas what a great video. One of the reasons I like your Chanel is the experience, knowledge and no nonsense approach that you bring to the table. I would be very interested in your view on the Beta marine diesel hybrid solution? They also have a Yanmar option as well. TO me it seems to tick all the box's but would love to hear your thoughts.
Hi Thomas, great explanation.
You can explain a different hybrid system with an electric engine on the shaft next to the engine.
This will solve most problems.
The purpose is not being green but able to motorsail without noise and to enter/leave harbours without fumes.
Creating apparent wind with an electric engine works very well and allows you to sail in little wind where you would normally start your engine. I guess this is not related to safety so perhaps a topic for a next time.
Rgds, Berend sv Lyrics
I watched the video and can agree with some of the points.
I am going hybrid way and intended to go full renewable just because it seems interesting to me ,it definitely not easy or cheap, diesel engine definitely is lot more simple and robust I have to agree with that.
I am surprised about fact diesel generator is so unreliable, I would expect they are more efficient and low service, well I lerned something new .
I have cheap Chapion 1.8kw 4 stroke generator as my eletric back up then have plan to install 1.2kw solar , and will have 28kw battery pack .
You are brave man, I assume you right. I got a 48 footer and I would go for diesel and electric motor if I had the money and the space!
It's very, very hard to beat the energy density of cost efficiency of diesel fuel. The closest I've found is sails.
Something not considered by most is prevailing wind and which way the boat will face relative to the panels and sun. For instance in the san blas islands you are mostly facing north. This means that you will have only half the panels getting sun in the morning and late afternoon and only usable amounts if you can tilt them. You only fire on all panels mid day for a few hours. You may get little or no exposure if the tide, current, or wind conspire against you when you anchor or are under way.
How would you assess Sailing Uma? They are smaller, but they seem to be managing an electric solution? And yes, your honest approach is much appreciated!
Spot on & precisely correct 👍
HaHa ! You Nailed It! ..I'm Impressed By Your Candid No Holds Barred Critique and Analysis ..You Certainly have Influenced my Thoughts on the Subject ...But are there any Generators " Out There " That You might Consider ? ie A Comparitive in depth look at the Market ...?
Thanks and Just Subscribed 👍
I totally agree with Thomas , especially from the safety aspect of the equation. And as he said the cost to be GREEN is ridiculously insane.
Plukky needs to watch this,he is doing the elcano challenge fully electric catamaran building at the moment.
Thank you Thomas very informative this episode ,safe sailing,oh just a thought what is your planning with the Indian Ocean are you going around Afrika?
Sailing Doodles is going full electric
@@franksmith137 true?that guy is so busy buying and selling boats I can’t keep up with him,when Plukky had the lightning strike it welded the gearbox gears together,imagine an electric motor.
Så bra Thomas!
Äntligen någon som talar klarspråk! 😊
Thomas, look into solutions like beta marine/ hybrid marine ( like in Tally Ho Episode 115) that is REAL hybrid, good for open ocean😊
Thank you for your honest opinions. Very informative.
Good stuff… I think the problem is the 22T vessel… when yachts weigh 10tone sit on top of the water and are 60ft long I think the Elextric model works.
I have had some experience with Kubota engines and they make a very good generator but I agree you’re burning fuel one way or another . I would rather have the safety
Of my Yanmar That is naturally aspirated . I think your advice to have the engine running during a thunderstorm is excellent. Yes once a diesel gets started, it likes to just keep running.
I'm 100 % agree with you man, good explanation of the systems.