@@stephaniehu8489 actually hanyu personally chose Brian Orser because Javier Fernandez had impeccable technique which he refined with Brian Orser if you did not know also Brian did have him Rework his technique while he was with him but besides being a brilliant technician he also had technicians to work with him specifically for certain jumps therefore he did not do all of the technician work because he knows his strength and his weaknesses and he works as a team of knowledgeable and worthy structured competitors and instructors. that were able to structure everything out correctly not like other teams that we’ve seen Unravel under public scrutiny really quickly
@@peterquintana6754 Good to know! I'm sure Hanyu wasn't technically perfect when he went to Orser's team but I know that Hanyu's foundation was already there to begin with based on his performances prior to working with Orser.
@@stephaniehu8489 What makes Orser great is, he knows fixing technique isn't instant. Both Hanyu and Javi took a few years to fully matured into their peak form. He even said it to Medvedeva that if she wants to work with Orser, she needs to understand that everything took time. It's just a pity that Medvedeva was ruined to begin with, that no matter how she tried to fix, she won't go far. Junhwan is also quite an interesting case. He actually have the foundation already, but I guess it's either the KR feds problem or it's mental problem from him. Boyang was supposed to transfer to TCC in 2019 season, I think? But he delayed and pandemic occured. So he's very late in working with TCC. Had Boyang move in earlier, he could have more confidence and stabling himself sooner. It's such a pity because amongst Soma, Boyang, Nathan's gen, Boyang actually have the best technique, but he just can't pull through. I guess the pressure from CH fed really sunk deep into him 😢 Edit: Orser is no magic hand. Else Junhwan would've won something after all these years. It's meant nothing if the skaters themselves are pressured hard. Honestly, judging in figure skating is always sketchy. Reputable coach, strong fed, and there are a lot of other factors into it.
I really appreciate your analysis, thank you! I think you explained everything very well and with respect towards the skater. I also loved the bit where you showed Yuzuru Hanyu's insane zero prerotation takeoff, haha it's good to see his technique is so good! Thanks for the video!
The fact that the judging system allows for dreadful technique on all jumps is just disgusting. It's even more obvious for skaters who have no outside edge for lutz but are still scoring big points with a giant flutz (Shcherbakova to name just one). What is sad and inexplicable about Valieva is that she can fully rotate quads but for some reason she needs to prerotate almost an entire 360° for her triples. So it's not about her lack of ability but rather about bad coaching.
@@MV-bf8mu Sure, and how many times has her edge been called? Flat edges need to be called just the same. By the way, her edge is not the only thing that is wrong with her lutz.
Omg the edge and pre-rotation violations from Tutberidze's entire camp and the fact they still massively score for them! And iirc Trusova literally has had two fitted landings with no penalty or whatever like ????
@@russki1978 are you even aware of how many skaters have a flat/inside edge and full blade assistance ? Spoiler : a lot, not only the Russians. So putting Anna as an example is a big bias that betrays your subjectivity, because the perfect flutz example is Kaori Sakamoto. Who is still ranked higher than Higuchi with a trixel. Good try, but Russians are clean on this point.
@@Nunelii First you say "not only Russians" and they you go "Russians are clean". That is a contradiction. I can count all the Russian female skaters with a true lutz on the fingers of... well, on one single finger. And it's not Anna Shcherbakova.
It’s really pity that people with such poor technique (Anna Shcherbakova, Medvedeva, Zagitova, sometimes Trusova, Shoma Uno, Daniel Grassl… many, many… ) get almost the same GOE on their jumps like the skaters with beautiful technique. I see that this new toe assisted jumps without toe assistance is becoming more popular. Its easier to rotate and the judges don’t care.
I agree. Especially on Shoma's mess of a 4flip which received a +3.46 GOE at Worlds this year. It is so bad (deeply curved inside edge, 3/4 on-ice pre-rotation, flat blade assist) it should have received -3.46 GOE.
I can see that Trusova is trying to improve her technique. I believe she really tries to get good technique, but it is still not perfect. Eteri doesn’t teach proper technique, which leads to injuries. I don’t know how Eteri is still allowed to have skaters with poor technique.
@@fitgraphisva lol what? Would rather him restart his technique and loose his quad flip? That would be dumb, he’s very short and can’t get as much hight. It’s still insanely difficult
@@aniawacht3882 He does not need to change his technique. He can do whatever he wants. The ISU judges just need to study their own published jump standards and stop rewarding his (and other skaters) bad technique with high GOEs.
I didn't realize she pre-rotated that much. The judges need to do better and just not award because of "name". We need better judges who are not afraid to judge the proper technique of each jump.
The ISU really needs to make a rule and deduction that’s used consistently on this unacceptable technique. It makes me very angry when certain skaters rely on 3/4 or even more pre-rotation. I consider this as full blade assist, and if they cheat the landing AT ALL, I believe these jumps should not even count as quads, but down-graded to triples….NONE of these jumps should in ANY WAY receive a +GEO based on egregious pre-rotation at all. Unfortunately Eteri relies upon teaching this technique for quads…and then people wonder why so many of her skaters end up with serious back injuries at a very young age. 🙄
People always talk about TES vs PCS, but I feel overscoring in GOE is just as big of a problem. In any case, pre-rotation needs to be addressed in the sport (both women and men). A skater like Chen or Hanyu shouldn't be getting the same score (or less in many cases due to GOE) than someone who is pre-rotating almost a full turn before they leave the ice and landing on almost the quarter mark. Also, when talking about flow, the length of the arc coming out of the jump should be taken into consideration. Maybe a skater is holding a landing position, but if they can't even travel a meter coming out of their jump then......is that really a "good" landing or showing "effortlessness"?
I’ve always found +GOE to be unnecessary like why would a skater be awarded for doing a jump the way it’s supposed to be done. Only -GOE is needed. You don’t see gymnasts getting extra points for doing an element “prettier” than another competitor. Getting rid of +GOE would do wonders for this sport.
I feel like Hanyu is the only one who does four full rotations in the air. The rest are like 3 and a half or almost four, but with Kamilla she pre-rotates so much that I legit could only count about 2 and a half full rotations in the air, and that’s being optimistic, sometimes it looks like only 2 full rotations.
Yes they do. As you know, a COACH teaches technique. Brian orser offered to train Kamila, i'm sure you know this. He doesn't just take anybody, only the best
Love how much conscientious thought goes into this analysis! Respect and grace to the athlete-- who honestly, deserves it, technical components aside--as a human. And still maintaining opinions about the skating, which should take the forefront in a sport. Just good tact, which I appreciate.
Absolutely! This is why I appreciate Eric’s in-depth analysis! He shows these jumps clearly and completely by his slow-motion and stop camera methods. BTW I loved the comparison of different skater’s jumps in this one! Problems (and props) can be very difficult to catch at full speed. I also agree completely that the judging system needs to agree on and stick to specific GOE guidelines (as in their stance on prerotation). AND not just shower a specific skater with excessive GOEs, especially when they’re a “favorite!”
I saw a video that says there's a Eteri bonus points these girls get by being coached by Eteri. Before seeing this video, I did noticed these when Alexandra and Alena left Eteri for Plushenko and were not receiving as high GOEs and POCs when they were under Eteri. And then, both girls went back to Eteri.
Great analysis! I agree that her GOE should be lower. I feel for skaters out there with a cleaner technique in their jumps that don't get better goe, or even skaters that jump withe the same technique as her that also don't get the same goe.
I really love yuzu 4lutz, its quite pity that he has done not many of it.... And yes he is the textbook example of figure skating with Kim Yuna too. I am so sick of pre rotations, the goe and the pcs that the judges giving to the skaters nowadays It is so unfair for some skillful skaters. Thank you for the video, hope u do more. See you next time.🤗🤗🤗
Thanks for pointing this out! It’s easy to be impressed by Kamila’s jumps based on the difficult arm positions and beautiful landing position, but it’s so hard to notice pre-rotation in real time. The russian coaches definitely have a pattern of teaching techniques which make the cheated jumps easier to get away with by finding loopholes in the rules. Like the Sochi Olympics where the winner had wrong edges on jumps and pre-rotated while Yuna Kim had flawless technique but was not awarded. It’s so unfair
You mentioned windmill arms but what I noticed in particular is that Kamila prerotates with her upperbody a lot? Like before the prerotation on the toe pick she’s already turned her torso to the side while Nathan and Yuzu are always facing the same way upper and lower body when they pick. Is this not the kind of faulty technique that injured Evgenia’s back? Or could I be wrong?
Yes same as med. She preroatates upper body, uses her arms and back to muscle up into the jump and turns on the ice excessively before her foot actually leave the ice
Ah no wonder I feel familiar feeling between kamila and evgenia, but I couldn't pin point it. I didn't think this cheating technique has severe consequence. I hope figure skating can be better with their rule.
@@KIMBYAWOON This pre-rotation and almost full blade assist is an Eteri method. The ISU doesn’t always consider this deduction. Personally I wouldn’t even score these jumps as a quad…they’re closer to a triple when they’re 3/4 or more pre-rotated and sometimes cheated by a 1/4 on landing. This is an Eteri training technique that eventually leads to injury that she blames on her skaters because she always has a full stable to replace them each season if they are no longer winning on the Russian Nats, Olympics, or Worlds. Once these poor girls reach puberty and get off-time or off-axis with their jumps, even if they do get or if they are too injured to skate, she drops them and blames the skaters themselves (weight, injury that she never lets heal, or having the strength to train at least 12 hrs per day etc) It disgusts me. I had one coach like that, and I switched for a less “famous” coach, and I was healthier and more successful than I’d ever been. I progressed in jumps and spins more quickly and consistently with a coach who let me eat more than 750 calories per day while training 10hrs per day…Eteri doesn’t care if that strength and performance lasts more than a season or two.
This is very interesting and thought provoking, but I would like to bring forward some other observations. First let's point out this is not an empirical bio-mechanical analysis. That said, I think there are many aspects to consider. Since there is literally NO officially published criterion defining what pre-rotation actually is (except as mentioned for the toe-loop) Eric is qualitatively analyzing pre-rotation in terms of observation of the blade on the ice at takeoff. That is a way one could look at it in the absence of a definition (and is logical as that is how landing rotation is evaluated). However, I would like to point out that the human body is a jointed segmented system and not a simple projectile in the Newtonian sense. Thus one could have less rotation of the takeoff blade but more rotation of the lower and upper body cores to compensate. Therefore, on 4Lz for example, a skaters such as Hanyu or Boyang Jin are loading the inside of the toe pick (ankle) at takeoff at high velocity approach. This will cause less rotation of the blade (aka pivot) through the takeoff (this would be considered less prerotation of the takeoff foot). I refer to this type of Lz takeoff as the "vault" method. This produces a jump that tends to be higher and longer than using the "180deg pivot" method. Both Hanyu and Jin regularly perform this jump at .70 sec or more. This is important to note due to the fact that their initial rotational velocity can be slightly decreased by the lack of "pivot" on the toe-pick of the takeoff blade. However, if you look at the upper and lower body core, you will see plenty of twist away from that blade putting the shoulders in a similar "pre-rotation" position as seen on the pivot method. Nathan generally has more body core (especially upper) pre-rotation at takeoff than many of his competitors. This allows him to achieve higher rotation rates over slightly reduced flight times (efficiency). You generally tend to see the vault takeoff more commonly in male skaters, and the pivot in females (there are exceptions in both disciplines). Also entry speed is a factor. Both techniques will get the job done and have their pros and cons. For example, the vaulting method puts a great deal of additional torquing stress on the inside of picking leg. This could possibly lead to higher risk of ankle knee and hip damage of the takeoff leg. In slow motion video I particularly notice the stress on the medial collateral ligament of the knee and the soft tissues of the hip. The ankle is generally anchored by the ever stiffer and lighter boots the skaters are wearing, but If the skater were to have bone weakness they also would perhaps be at elevated risk of torquing (spiral) type fractures of the tibia and fibula. Also the increased parabolic flight results in a higher impact force (shock) at landing also adding to the potential damage over time. Finally the increase twist away from the takeoff through the body cores could also potentially result in an tendon tearing off the Ilium on takeoff side or increase risk of an avulsion fracture (I think Nathan has had this happen on 4T?). In the pivot type takeoff, more angular momentum in generally converted to the initial rotational acceleration thus increasing maximal rotational velocities in a tradeoff with slightly less flight time and distance to maintain a ratio where the required rotation can still be completed before impact at landing. Since the vaulting leg is turning more with the rotational acceleration of the lower body core, there would conceivably be slightly less stress on the overall picking and landing kinetic chains as detailed above. So it could be said that the pivot (blade pre-rotation) type of takeoff could be more "efficient" than the traditional vault (especially when you take into account there are 6 other jump passes in a long program. So each jump pass that saves even a little energy and force of impact can add up throughout a program). This is all just conjecture however, as there are only a few handfuls of good scientific jump studies in this sport. So what is my incredibly long winded point here? . . . . . . It is that Jumping technique (especially at this level) can be VERY VERY complicated. Technique is merely a method one uses to do something. So to say one way is "better" than another at just a glance may be a bit overly simplistic. We can debate the influence of other aspects of training (especially chemical . .lol) all day long (and that is fair); but it is apparent "technique" in this sport has evolved a great deal in the last decade, yielding exponential increases in the performance of many athletes (not just from ROC). I certainly would hesitate to label any one method as "dreadful" or "wrong" or "bad" when it has consistently aided the top skaters in the world to continually achieve record scores and consistently pushing the ceiling on what is and may be possible. If you read this whole thing. . . .YOU deserve a medal!!!! LOL. . . .Thank you, Eric for taking the time to put this topic out there. CC
Wow this is a lot haha thank you for the long and thoughtful comment! I agree with a lot of what you said. I like your naming of “vault” lutzes; someone like Boyang definitely has that. And yes to an extreme extent like Yuzu with 0 pre rotation, that could actually be bad for the body - I believe one of his injuries was related to that on 4Lz. Yes, jumping technique is complicated. However, I would bargain that if you go poll a ton of coaches and skating officials on which is better: a Boyang/Hanyu/Kolyada/Nathan quad lutz with almost 0 pre rotation vs. an Anna S quad lutz or Shoma Uno quad flip with a lot of pre rotation / full blade take off, I would bet you that the vast majority would indeed say the former is “better”. I don’t think the latter is dreadful or anything, I DO think it is physical compensation for not being able to really do a completely “proper” lutz as we have mostly defined it historically. In any case you’re right that there’s nothing “official” about this right now so it is opinion, but I guess this is where my skating experience/intuition/“hunch” comes in that informs my opinion!
As Eric mentioned, even though jumping technique may vary and all of them are designed to get the same result i.e. 3 or 4 rotations the quality and look of the jumps are totally different. Lutz and flip with the "vault" method is spectacular, great height, and aesthetically pleasing. Whereas the prerotation version is just ugly and looking "muscly" my opinion. The one that Kamila did is almost the same with Satoko, very heavily prerotated. But Satoko fairly got small GOE plus she UR her jumps a lot (even with the prerotation) compared to Kamila who got +4 or +5 easily. In the age of IJS where jump rotations are counted with downgrade, UR, q, etc have their specific deductions rules, it's fair to review whether the rotations are done in the air completely or some done on the ice. Kamila 3Lz and 3F are basically only about 2 - 2.25 rotation in the air so compared to the vault technique with 2.75 - 3 rotations you'll wonder whether it would be fair if both are getting same GOE. Some also mention that this technique put strain on the back which cause injury later on.
That so called 'efficient ' full blade assist technique already showed with the third generation on Eteri skaters that it doesn't work with full grown-up, higher body mass and stiffness female body. Plus they all had injuries, including a devastating hip injury for Dariya. The way those girls dig toe pick sideways and not straight ( like Yuzu or Nathan) into the ice while pre-rotating puts incredible stress on hip joint and can cause torn labrum. Look at old-time skaters who had hip injury with this kind of picking technique (like Michelle Kwan, Evan Lysacek, Alysa Czizny, for example). I think this kind of technique picking inwards into rotation should evaluated by professionals with regard of what kind of damage it causes to body over time and excessive rotation (over 1/4) should be penalized. But I guess, who cares about logevity, when there is a whole battalion of disposable young, flexible, light bodies in Eteri's arsenal 🙄
@@tigerskatemom I understand your point. Possible. There is simply NO data or studies rre. different techniques and injuries, and even if funded, very difficult to study as labral tissue tears could often have been the result of poor axis landings and/ or cumulative effect of takeoff and landing stressors. . . .so dozens of horizontal studies would also need to be performed and the validity of the "science" would still be suspect... (everybody seems to suddenly be an expert on this stuff and there is no data to support any of it). Also the description of "efficient" was strictly applicable as to describe the amount of blade and hip rotation (ie more). Unfortunately many cannotate that with "better". To be clear, I'm neither advocating, suggesting nor defending one way or the other. Just trying to clarify the discussion. If we start evaluating blade rotation on takeoffs at the tech panel level, it will need to be clearly defined for each different takeoff. Let's take toe-loop for example: should the same blade rotation evaluation be applied to that takeoff? . . .. And whist we are at it, should we clarify a deduction for two foot assisted takeoff on (1234)S as well? In bio-mechanics rotation of a complex body is evaluated by the perceived center of mass of that object. Not by the movement at the extremities. Humans can externally and internally rotate their hip joints. So a skater that can get away with 1/4 to 1/2 prerotation of the blade at takeoff and can internally rotate their femur 1/4 to 1/2 rotation prior to impact at landing. Thus is performing on average 2.25-2.5 turns of the blade "in the air" on a triple jump. There is variation. Thank you for adding important insight to the discussion. :)
The "combo technique" of getting momentum for the second jump is very disturbing to the rhythm but also makes the combo feel like two jumps and not a combo (basically a sequence) and it should 100% get a goe under 0.
Their jump technique always bother me tbh. Because of using the upper body to generate force to jump, the 2nd jump on their combos always look forced and ugly for me. Like, they land, then paused a bit, then forcing their arms and upper body to jump again. Just look at Valieva/Scherbakova. Idk how that can generate such ridiculous GOEs but it's Eteri and Rusfed, so /shrugs/
@@rayneforresy640 Absolutely! Valieva (especially) as well as Scherbakova have terrible hitch and pull, (that can hide a cheated jump…esp when they changes edge) I don’t believe that should technically be counted as a combo
@@емілі-п1в ye. For me it's too ugly. And we all know Eteri taught those things to her girls to hide edges, rotate faster, etc. It's destroying them tho. But all in all it's very common these days. It's simply because the judges incompetent in judging. Stupid, corrupt ISU
And that is the reason why any new to figure skating or want to learn figure skating, still and until now, DUG UP all Yuna Kim's videos and programs to learn proper jumping technique, plus ofcourse the unmatched artistry. She is just the TEXTBOOK.
This is a great video, a few things that still stuck out to me, especially when it comes to the free scare for the team event, is that in most of her jumps she was still rotating when she landed. There was also the fall that when first happened was given a negative GOE and a split second later it changed to being under review
This is where tech, as proposed/recommended by Hanyu, can help. He thought about this on his thesis, acknowledging the difficulty the judges face in checking this.
Skaters like Kamila Valieva who prerotates their 3F and 3Lz excessively on the ice have small jumps. Its just bad that she get high GOE although her 3Lz and 3F both didnt satisfy the criteria of “very good height and very good length”, nor do they satisfy the criteria of good take-off.
I’ve watched quite a few videos of Valieva’s extreme pre-rotation. I know this is a specific training technique used by the Eteri since it’s not completely obvious without serious analysis like you provide here, Eric! Nor is it judged consistently by the ISU. At this point it has gotten so egregious that I cannot believe these jumps are even considered quads. Valieva has exhibited over 3/4 pro-rotation in different videos. I would like to see more in depth analysis of Scherbakova’s quad at the Olympics, truthfully to me the same quad in combination does not make her a “quad queen”….completely MY opinion. BUT my biggest point of contention is that fan fanaticism on other threads regarding the ban (sanction) on Russian skaters in international competition this season. BUT too many fans keep saying that Russian skaters are the best in the world, and they claim they won’t even watch Worlds without the Russian skaters. Some even claim it would be “boring” without the Russian skaters. I’ve pointed out on many of these threads that the Russians do NOT dominate in pairs or mens. As a former competitive figure skater, this fan fanaticism has gone too far. I post this here only because I know there are more skaters and more informed fans here. I am sorry for the Russian skaters who will miss out on these opportunities. I’m just tired of people who are so fanatical that they even claim that international competition will be “boring” without Russian skaters.🙄 Sakamoto did win bronze, people, and there are still other exciting Women’s competitors. Sorry if this is too off topic. I would just like to hear others’ opinions on a better feed such as this ☺️
actually worlds 2022 would even be so amazing and much more exciting. We'll get to see skaters with incredible and amazing artistry. Especially female skaters who ACTUALLY have the choreography going into the jumps and not just a program filled with jumps after jumps.
I mean I do like some of the Russian skaters. Liza Tuk is one of them, their pairs and men aren't bad either. Always love Kolyada, the guy actually got the technique and presentation but his previous coach was just not a good one for him. Tuk got the best technique amongst Russian ladies, too bad her programs often empty tho. Honestly it's mostly the Eteri girls that just ruined my enjoyment in watching Ladies figure skating. Well more like Eteri, and Rusfed destroying these girls future. And probably won't change in another quad 😢
@@jazmereflores9749 I agree completely! I’m very excited to see the Japanese skaters, especially Sakamoto and Higuchi as well as other women’s skaters ☺️ I’ve gotten tired of the Eteri girl’s dominating with the egregious pre-rotation and (some cheated landings) that are not called by the ISU technical analysts and/or judges. Yes, part of the problem is the ISU’s inconsistent judging (especially when they award the highest GEOs). I’m excited to see Sakamoto and Higuchi (excuse me if I’ve spelled these beautiful skater’s names) as well as many other women skaters!
@@jazmereflores9749 Oh just watched Isabeau’s US Nationals, and I’m so eager to see more of her. She’s a beautiful skater, and only under-rotated her triple triple combo…(as far as I can see from one slo-mo of that particular jump combo.
@@емілі-п1в I’m so excited to see how she progresses too! Her free in nationals really captivated me, she has so much control in her skating i loved the part where she curves to a stop after a jump in time with the music
I'm so glad someone is really analyzing these jumps. It doesn't look like the technical panel is. Do they know how a "lutz" should take off? If they did then there should not any GOE given on the jumps. Wrong edges on take offs of the jump aren't called.
Hmmmm🤔How can it be called a quad “jump” if it’s pre rotated in the ice so much. There were more rotations OFF the ice for Nathan than for Kamilla. Not really understanding how hers can be considered quad jumps.
So according to the rules, prerotation and using too much blade on toe jumps should automatically disqualify a skater from receiving +4 and +5 GOE. Truly, Kamila (and many other skaters tbh) receiving such high GOEs for such prerotated jumps is a slap in the face to skaters with textbook technique, like Rika Kihira (who's sadly not competing at these Olympics). Also, isn't the excessive prerotation technique the reason why so many of Eteri's students retire young with back injuries? I've heard that before, but not sure how true it really is.
Show me the rules where prerotation is punished? Some jumps REQUIRE prerotation. Look at Toes and Salchows of Nathan Chen and Yuzuru Hanyu. They prerotate as well. No one punishes them for that. Full blafe assistance is another "myth" created by some stupid idiots that have no idea about rules. All figure skaters jump with toe assistance. They just tend to put the blade close to the surface of ice. Do they have to be punished for that? Of coarse not.
@@Eagle90able dude, my comment was literally a reaction to what was said in the video, i.e. that a jump without "good take-off" is not supposed to get +4 and +5 GOE. It's all there man, so is the comparison with Nathan and Yuzuru's jumps. Maybe watch the video first and go on a ridiculous rant later?
@@Unfiltered494 First read the rules. Or at least read a book written by an actual coach, Mishin, for example, And then write stupid comments. There are a lot of videos on TH-cam spreading misleading information and after that idiots who watched them start writing ignorant things. Prerotation is not considered a poor takeoff if the jump is fully rotated. So jumping like that is absolutely legal. Prerotation is never punished and the lack of it is never rewarded because it's a natural thing to happen while performing most of the jumps.
@@Eagle90able "severe" prerotation is indicstion of bad technique. The OP obviously commented on Kamila 3/4 quarter on ice rotation. If she is only doing 1/4 wr won't even have this video in the 1st place. For now it's not punished and ET is smart looking at the loopholes. But it's still an indication of poor technique, far away from the lutz and flip done by Nathan, Yuzuru, etc. Also the video mentioned lutz and flip and you went on rant about salchow... pay attention dude
@@yohanes2034 It's not an indication of a bad technique. Prerotation is never looked at because it has nothing to do with anything. It's just a certain way to jump. It is never considered a poor take off or anything at all because figure skater still has three full rotations in the air. Prerotation was just something fans created out of nothing as long as with this bullshit called "full blade assist".
She might do a 4 sal but she has serious problems with her pre rotated flip and lutz. Those jumps will never be quads since they're not even triples. Her toe combinations are rhythmic yes but.... I prefer Yuna and Midori's combination jumps. If you want to see amazing lutz technique you should watch Tonya Harding and Tatiana Malinina. I feel like if Valieva took from a proper coach, she could be amazing.
Hi Eric, loved your content thus far although there are points that I don't quite agree with you. But I can see that your analysis were mostly unbiased and with respect. So I enjoyed it nonetheless. Please keep it up! Btw just want to point out that Fanyus are the group of people who contantly point out (for many years) the fact that Yuzuru is one of the jumpers with best technique, if not the best. There are lots of analysis videos where jumps from different jumpers were compared and scrutinised side by side. And GOEs were compared too. And you know what? The Lutz landed by Yuzuru with similar quality with the one you shown here was only awarded with a GOE of 3.61. And on the exact same field the Lutz that was performed by the other skater was awarded GOE +4.27 (axis little off, lack of transition, prerotation at between 90-180°). Then you'll see antis comments like "the judges judged on the field, and you're only judging on a display", "Fanyus think they're better than judges" "Analysis done by a obsessive fanyu who is a 14-year-old girl" etc. In fact there are commentators like the Italian Maximiliano ambesi who did analysis videos on Yuzuru and other skaters' jumps too. But sadly, even with clear footage like this Fanyus are still being mocked just because they defended Yuzuru Hanyu. There's enough said but nothing's done with the judging system.
Well... No matter how well yuzu skates, pcs gonna low when compared to other not so good skaters. No matter how difficult are the transitions in and out in jumping, no pre under-rotaiton, GOEs are gonna low. Isu has a very big expectation from him i guess, maybe thats the reason y even with small mistakes hanyu made, they will lower his goe n pcs and i am getting pissed off. Its not that i am hating on the other skaters for that, but im hating on the isu judging skills. Even yuzu know about this, that y his thesis he is suggesting AI to take over. Corrupted judging system.
Honestly, that might have to be a question for Hanyu himself :) It is indeed amazing he’s been at the top of the (and his) game for 3 Olympic cycles now. I’m sure it’s a small part genetics, and mostly great training/lifestyle!
Eric, great video as usual! I think that the whole thing where the judges or some special panel person needs to watch the "degree of prerotation" is absolutely ridiculous because as you know and anybody who ever skated who ever tried to fix something like the pre rotation or some aspect of their ""incorrect" jump technique(Mesvedeeva, need I say more....) after doing it incorrectly practically since child birth over 10,000 times, it is 99.99999999% impossible to reprogram those kinds of biomechanics. Not going to happen... If we look at Valieva's pre rotation today or a year ago or say Shoma Uno's quad flip full blade 3/4+ pre rotation today vs 4 years ago IT IS IDENTICAL... So the notion that the judges have to "check" after what I have just said is ludicrous. In my opinion, there should be a standard for an acceptable amount of pre rotation say like Nathan Chen which is in normal range of what is possible and efficient biomechanically speaking. Then they should have a stiff penalty for the 3/4 full blade crap like at least -5 because it's technically NOT a flip or lutz. In cycling like Tour De France, they have something called a biological passport that maps out what a certain cyclists blood biological markers are like hematocrit levels, so when they get tested to make sure they are not doping, it is pretty clear if they're cheating. It would be very easy to do this for skaters, I kind of have something like this for many skaters in my head. For example, I know that Kolyada and Hanyu have ZERO pre rotation on flip and Lutz. I know Nathan has slightly more than Boyang Jin... All these guys are the top end of quad Lutzes and flips to be sure. Then you have the Shoma Uno and Aliev contingent who have the full blade stuff going on and they're really just doing a loop jump. There is no need to watch Shoma's take off to see if he still does the full blade because he will ALWAYS DO IT THAT WAY... Shoma's quad flip, Trusova's quad flip/Lutz full blade/EVERYBODY should have some kind of pre rated technique for each jump(with the appropriate downgrade ALREADY programmed into the computer) so when the judge gives the score for that jump there is an automatic subtraction. That would be a great place to start. Hanyu and Kolyada can get a +7 for their clean take off for the few times they have so magnificently landed their quad Lutzes.... Hell I would give Kolyada a +20 for the quad Lutz he did in that 2019 sp because it was so phenomenal! Lol! What do you think about this idea? If a skater is marked a certain way and actually improves their technique in terms of pre rotation somehow they can do some test and get an upgraded base score for that particular element.... I think that would make things more fair and give the judges less wiggle room to do the B.S. that they do now giving way too high of goe scores for certain skaters. The whole reason they went away from the 6.0 scale was to make skating judging more quantifiable, right? Then the coaches could decide whether it is worth it to trade pure technique for getting the jumps initially and being slightly more consistent at the lower levels. That's really what we're talking about here anyway isn't it?
I totally agree that Kamila's Ultra C jumps look spectacular but not her triples. Excessive pre-rotations are in my opinion a form of cheating which also unfairly improves consistency. Properly executed jumps (like those of Yuna Kim's) have a higher falling rate and should thus merit higher GOEs. Valieva's combi jump technique with her odd knee action look aesthetically unpleasant to me at best. It is sad that proper jump techniques are being bastardized and that those responsible are reaping rewards.
These jumps did not even take off from the toepick. She fully took off of the right outside edge. Both her flip and Lutz are actually loop jumps because of her takeoff from the full blade and not the toepick.
If one athlete uses wrong tech and didn’t get any punishment from the judge system. Other young athletes will see this “shortcut approach” to get more bv and goe. That’s why the nowadays figure skating looks more and more ugly. ISU may call it developments. Others will call it collapse.
Hanyu's 4 lz is AMAZING but look the GOE he got! The judges of ISU is just full of bias and double standard. The ones who jump with prerotation to a degree that it's not even a quad get higher GOE. How sad this sport is.
Huh...I am by no means an expert, but I'd take off for effortless looking. The Eteri girls all look like they are gearing up for the long jump. Especially in the combo because even Valieva breaks at the waist most of the time. It doesn't look like Kaori, Loena, Rika, Tuktamysheva, or even Gracie's. I am totes impressed by what she does. Sometimes I think people get confused between "make something look effortless" and "make something look impressive."
Part of why I will always say Hanyu is the GOAT. As a professional coach, I can't fault athletes for using what is being given to them though. It's on the judges and officials to properly score and reward the better quality jumps, and them not doing it actively promotes having to game the system.
I guess that ISU SHOULD be more critical on prerotation issue, because a lot of Tutberitze students have prerotation problems and we can see how many of them have back problems later (Lipnitskaya, Medvedeva). I don't want that to happen to these young girls as well(((
And some people dare to say that the current World champion and Olympic champion in ladies has PERFECT technique and she deserves those medals…. After watching Chen, Yuzuru or other women, it’s just a bigger joke that a woman who only jumps 3 and 3,25 Flootz has those medals
Such a great analysis… as usual lol. It’d be interesting to consider these biases from a judging perspective since if you look historically, Mao was super penalized for her inside edge lutz… what are your thoughts on the consistency of how judges do their part to promote good technique? 🤔
this is what angers me the most. mao always (rightfully) got called for her incorrect lutz edge and she worked so hard to try and get it right, just for other skaters to do an inside edge and get away with it. it's so unfair how they pick and choose who gets called or not...
I think ISU is just too poor to have the equipment to detect pre-rotation. They only have their eyes to detect at that moment. Not to mention their vision is very bad because ISU just cannot afford to buy them good glasses. We should do a Gofundme to buy that equipment for them, or at least get the judges good glasses.
Don't forget about reacting to Adelina's performance and thanks for your analysis, I was wondering what figure skaters may think about the constant pre-rotations and the scores this jumps get...
They aren't even allowed to watch take-offs in slow-motion. Only the landing. I've read the rules and I found nothing on watching jumps in slo-mo for take off. So it's indeed on the system yet ISU seems to be pretty content in its inability to mark down athletes from a certain federations and more specifically those who are coached by a certain coach. Even at the olympics. People were hit with edge calls left right and center and yet Anya's flat Lutz didn't even receive a warning while Trusova her flip received a warning.
@@YannisGoedermans she doesn’t correct it so if they leave her she can use it against them. Like Medvedeva and Trusova. They never got edge calls until they left her.
Thank you for your analysis! For me her combos look like sequences and never get called out. Her 4T 4S always has pre-rotation, i would say > 180 degrees. Also her "quads" shave the ice so badly before leaving the ice, i've never seen any skater damage the ice so badly than her, does it help her quad more consistent? I think the only jump that she do well is the 3A.
4T 4S require pre rotation and when I looked at for example 4T comparison with Nathan Chen, I didn’t see a huge difference in terms of that. Maybe I’ll have to go back and look deeper, compare with other skaters etc. but I do think the quads are mostly technically fine! 3A is great except there is definitely a school of thought that questions the one arm technique/longevity of that - but as I said, she’s showing us all & doing it great now.
@@EricStinehart Russian girls today are much stronger than anyone in the world. I am sure that all three places at the Olympics will be Russian. Nobody can compete with them. The Russians have gone ahead, they have a very strong school.
@@EricStinehart A very strong school with coach Tutberidze. Russians skate beautifully, they are plastic and very feminine, they have a strong ballet school
@@jonathanm.9801 It's not just on her 3A. It's on her jumps tbh. If see carefully, she does have weird axis when jumping. And honestly it's scary, be it for us or her. It's no wonder she needs to rippon to balance
Her jumping technical issues were not only with the pre-rotation, but also the combinations. Tilts of her right foot on the take-off did not look effortless(means she did not deserve +4 or +5 on ALL her combinations).
I would say that the frame rate of the video you use to try analysing the technique is too low and the compression level is too high. White blades are blurred with the ice because of the frame compression and if I’m not wrong to define pre rotation or under rotation you should measure angles between the blade’s edge and the line connecting the taking off and landing points. I’m sure that judges use the software calculating this, which notifies them if these angles are too high. Sometimes video operators insert the jump stage frames with slowed replay of the performance part with exact taking off and landing frames. If you don’t trust their software you should convert the video to eliminate the frames compression first and only after that manually search the frame of taking off and landing. Then connect these points with the line and try estimating angles, considering that you also have the 2D projection. Otherwise you just choose random blurred frames and say that you see something there.
I've been waiting for this video to hear your take on it. Personally, I hate this technique cause it looks ugly. For lutz and flip, it goes against the mechanic of the jump. Lutz and flip should take off from the toe pick without the assistance of the blade. Now the rules don't clearly mention about prerotation and how to punish it and specific to Kamila: - I'd not give the height and length bullet because the jump has too much prerotation, it basically only has about 2 rotation in the air. The jump naturally is tiny/ small and in no way fulfill this bullet. Like Satoko which has similar prerotation (around 3/4 on ice), the height needed to complete rotation is less than compared to your textbook jump - regarding the carrot, you can give poor takeoff deduction. But with ISU being unclear and vague as their virtue, it's debatable regarding the definition of poor takeoff. So at best it should not be given more than +3 GOE or at worst receiving 0 GOE or even minus GOE if she can't fulfill other bullets. Now regarding his 3T combo and the change of edge from outside to flat, I'd say it disturbs rhythm and flow which means another mandatory bullet for more than +3 GOE is not met (beside great height and length). Regarding the carrot, you can give deduction for bad rhythm (besides deduction for poor takeoff). So for her combo jumps, I'd say the GOE range is within minus to 0 GOE if you count the deductions. At the end if deductions are not taken into account, it shouldn't be getting more than +3 GOE cause if she gets it then it'll be invalidating skaters with good technique. You have to see the 3F of skater from Czech, she has textbook technique and received 0.83 GOE vs Kami 2.12 GOE. If ISU don't start to punish this then in the next 5 or 10 years, correct toe jump technique will be gone because coaches will continue to teach this bad technique. If it ain't broke why fix it right?
I appreciate your insights. You seem to like to talk about where blame should be placed and it isn't skater's fault, etc. I appreciate your willingness to be kind to some folks, but I don't think it is necessary. For excellence, we need everyone committed moving forward and not worrying so much about the "innocence" of someone getting away and rewarded with poor technique. I remember some past competitions where Eteri was unhappy when her skaters were called on prerotation, but somehow that issue got put aside for the most part the past couple years. It'll be good if the rules can be reinforced. Perhaps that can happen by demanding the technical panel by name explain themselves in light of the rules of how much of the jump needs to be in the air. After being tired of explaining the unexplainable, maybe the technical panel at least with slow motion will more willingly downgrade jumps as needed. Thank you again for your thoughtful commentary Eric. I feel disappointed by the doping scandal, etc. with the recent Olympics, but won't give up being a fan or still skating myself for fun.
Ha! If we take a look of the GOE of so called quad by many skaters, Hanyu's 4 luz should be 5 luz. So many skaters's quads are not even quads. ISU is so corrupt that they gave higher goe to skaters with worse tech and the one who actually have correct technique got lower GOE. It's a punishment and so unfair. No wonder it's getting rare to see skaters with correct techniques. The 2022 WC men's event is just so horrible.
I really think she's in league of her own. Her greatness lies in the fluidity of movement and the feeling of effortlessness that permeates jer every performance. She doesn't even need to do jumps, I'd still watch.
Isn’t pre-rotation what’s hurting all of team tutberidze’s backs? Judges should be looking for this technique and punishing it for the safety of the skaters
No wonder though, tutberidze kids just some quads girls w/o proper technique, some big publishers release articles saying they are disposable at 17 y.o... so sad. That's why people can differentiate which one is true good skater. And no one from tutberidze kids.
It's not Eteri's fault that her juniors are always superior to the current non-Russian seniors... Valieva may retire after winning the olympics and worlds, but it's not her fault, she already won everything and wants to have a normal life outside of the competencies. In the end, the fault lies with the mediocrity of their non-Russian rivals... Before you cry why Eteri's skaters retire so early, ask yourself why the skaters from her country don't even tickle the Russians.
@@alexeynovikov4178 before you say other skaters outside of Eteri sambo 70 school as "mediocre" (which IMO is such an insult), her skaters high scores are often very inflated. Sure her skaters have high BV because of quads and trixels, but even when they fell they still win. Plus the SS are often not developed well. Case on point Anna, Sasha, and Kamila have underdeveloped SS compared to most Japanese or Korean skaters. It's not that I'm anti ET skaters, in fact I love Kostornaia because she's well balanced skater. And I'm not anti Russia either because even in Russia domestic competition ET skaters received preferential treatment and I loathe it.
@@turtlefeesh if I won the Olympic Games and received millions for a TV show, like Medvedeva and Zagitova, why the hell should I kill myself at competitions, getting a penny for it? It is not Tutberidze who decides whether the girls will continue their careers or go to earn millions in the show. It is the decision of the girls themselves. And besides, Medvedeva and Zagitova do not have quads to compete in Russia with other skaters in order to qualify for the World Championships, Europe or the Olympic Games, and they understand this very well. So they left to earn in the show. They are both now in Beijing, commenting on competitions on the largest Russian TV channels for big money.
Thank you for making this video. There have been criticism on Eteri's method that it puts too much strains on the girls back that it kills their career prematurely. Is it possible to tell this position from the video? Or how the body is used?
A lot of Tutberidze's teaching relies on really small bodies and massive pre-rotation to get the jumps up and around and landed, which is why most of them burn out once they really hit puberty and aren't as small. The technique they're taught relies so much on them being small and using muscle groups they shouldn't that doing it for any length of time will eventually cause them to get injured and fall out of their career before it really even gets going.
I think her quads are only better than her triples because she doesn’t attempt the quads where you’re not supposed to cheat the takeoff like lutz and flip 🤣
It's kind of a cheat that she's getting positive GOE, not at that level. The problem is there is favoritism...and none of this is applied fairly or consistently. If they are not replaying the takoff and the landing what are they judging GOE on. Those who do flat blade takeoff on a Lutz are not actually performing a Lutz.
Like you said, pre-rotation deduction ain't a thing in ISU stuff. Also you: Pre-rotation should be taken into consideration (in + goe in good take off). Like what? LOL
I had to stop watching at 14:00. Eric is great. I find him unpretentious, affable, attractive on camera. His voice is enthusiastic, but not...perky. I just discovered this video so I hope he has more videos to watch. I'm far more knowledgeable about gymnastics. That's where I know the code better and can give you the deductions and points. Anyway, I'm totes subscribing. However, when he started talking about how amazing Valieva is...the C elements...how hard she's worked for years to get to a level where she could beat everyone by 20-30 pts; I just couldn't. All I could see was her falling and crying and the ISU/IOC just saying "everything is cool...it's okay to dope a minor."
Because they are the same jump and jumps have proper, good, bad, etc. technique regardless of gender. Do you think girls aren’t capable of jumping as good as men? Because I do (and they do). And many girl’s/women’s triple flips do not have the extreme pre rotation that Kamila does.
Hanyu's and Kim's jumps will always have the textbook perfection. cant beat them
The magic Brian Orser creates ✨
@@cassif19 Not to take away from Brian Orser, but those 2 came to him with great technique and he didn't ruin them.
@@stephaniehu8489 actually hanyu personally chose Brian Orser because Javier Fernandez had impeccable technique which he refined with Brian Orser if you did not know also Brian did have him Rework his technique while he was with him but besides being a brilliant technician he also had technicians to work with him specifically for certain jumps therefore he did not do all of the technician work because he knows his strength and his weaknesses and he works as a team of knowledgeable and worthy structured competitors and instructors. that were able to structure everything out correctly not like other teams that we’ve seen Unravel under public scrutiny really quickly
@@peterquintana6754 Good to know! I'm sure Hanyu wasn't technically perfect when he went to Orser's team but I know that Hanyu's foundation was already there to begin with based on his performances prior to working with Orser.
@@stephaniehu8489 What makes Orser great is, he knows fixing technique isn't instant. Both Hanyu and Javi took a few years to fully matured into their peak form. He even said it to Medvedeva that if she wants to work with Orser, she needs to understand that everything took time. It's just a pity that Medvedeva was ruined to begin with, that no matter how she tried to fix, she won't go far. Junhwan is also quite an interesting case. He actually have the foundation already, but I guess it's either the KR feds problem or it's mental problem from him. Boyang was supposed to transfer to TCC in 2019 season, I think? But he delayed and pandemic occured. So he's very late in working with TCC. Had Boyang move in earlier, he could have more confidence and stabling himself sooner. It's such a pity because amongst Soma, Boyang, Nathan's gen, Boyang actually have the best technique, but he just can't pull through. I guess the pressure from CH fed really sunk deep into him 😢
Edit: Orser is no magic hand. Else Junhwan would've won something after all these years. It's meant nothing if the skaters themselves are pressured hard. Honestly, judging in figure skating is always sketchy. Reputable coach, strong fed, and there are a lot of other factors into it.
I really appreciate your analysis, thank you! I think you explained everything very well and with respect towards the skater. I also loved the bit where you showed Yuzuru Hanyu's insane zero prerotation takeoff, haha it's good to see his technique is so good! Thanks for the video!
The fact that the judging system allows for dreadful technique on all jumps is just disgusting. It's even more obvious for skaters who have no outside edge for lutz but are still scoring big points with a giant flutz (Shcherbakova to name just one). What is sad and inexplicable about Valieva is that she can fully rotate quads but for some reason she needs to prerotate almost an entire 360° for her triples. So it's not about her lack of ability but rather about bad coaching.
Shcherbakova doesnt even have a flutz, she has a flat edge lol.
@@MV-bf8mu Sure, and how many times has her edge been called? Flat edges need to be called just the same. By the way, her edge is not the only thing that is wrong with her lutz.
Omg the edge and pre-rotation violations from Tutberidze's entire camp and the fact they still massively score for them! And iirc Trusova literally has had two fitted landings with no penalty or whatever like ????
@@russki1978 are you even aware of how many skaters have a flat/inside edge and full blade assistance ? Spoiler : a lot, not only the Russians. So putting Anna as an example is a big bias that betrays your subjectivity, because the perfect flutz example is Kaori Sakamoto. Who is still ranked higher than Higuchi with a trixel. Good try, but Russians are clean on this point.
@@Nunelii First you say "not only Russians" and they you go "Russians are clean". That is a contradiction. I can count all the Russian female skaters with a true lutz on the fingers of... well, on one single finger. And it's not Anna Shcherbakova.
It’s really pity that people with such poor technique (Anna Shcherbakova, Medvedeva, Zagitova, sometimes Trusova, Shoma Uno, Daniel Grassl… many, many… ) get almost the same GOE on their jumps like the skaters with beautiful technique. I see that this new toe assisted jumps without toe assistance is becoming more popular. Its easier to rotate and the judges don’t care.
I agree. Especially on Shoma's mess of a 4flip which received a +3.46 GOE at Worlds this year. It is so bad (deeply curved inside edge, 3/4 on-ice pre-rotation, flat blade assist) it should have received -3.46 GOE.
Shomas flip has always been terrible and is even credited as being the first person to land a quad flip in comp 👀
I can see that Trusova is trying to improve her technique. I believe she really tries to get good technique, but it is still not perfect. Eteri doesn’t teach proper technique, which leads to injuries. I don’t know how Eteri is still allowed to have skaters with poor technique.
@@fitgraphisva lol what? Would rather him restart his technique and loose his quad flip? That would be dumb, he’s very short and can’t get as much hight. It’s still insanely difficult
@@aniawacht3882 He does not need to change his technique. He can do whatever he wants. The ISU judges just need to study their own published jump standards and stop rewarding his (and other skaters) bad technique with high GOEs.
I didn't realize she pre-rotated that much. The judges need to do better and just not award because of "name". We need better judges who are not afraid to judge the proper technique of each jump.
The ISU really needs to make a rule and deduction that’s used consistently on this unacceptable technique. It makes me very angry when certain skaters rely on 3/4 or even more pre-rotation. I consider this as full blade assist, and if they cheat the landing AT ALL, I believe these jumps should not even count as quads, but down-graded to triples….NONE of these jumps should in ANY WAY receive a +GEO based on egregious pre-rotation at all. Unfortunately Eteri relies upon teaching this technique for quads…and then people wonder why so many of her skaters end up with serious back injuries at a very young age. 🙄
People always talk about TES vs PCS, but I feel overscoring in GOE is just as big of a problem. In any case, pre-rotation needs to be addressed in the sport (both women and men). A skater like Chen or Hanyu shouldn't be getting the same score (or less in many cases due to GOE) than someone who is pre-rotating almost a full turn before they leave the ice and landing on almost the quarter mark. Also, when talking about flow, the length of the arc coming out of the jump should be taken into consideration. Maybe a skater is holding a landing position, but if they can't even travel a meter coming out of their jump then......is that really a "good" landing or showing "effortlessness"?
I’ve always found +GOE to be unnecessary like why would a skater be awarded for doing a jump the way it’s supposed to be done. Only -GOE is needed. You don’t see gymnasts getting extra points for doing an element “prettier” than another competitor. Getting rid of +GOE would do wonders for this sport.
I feel like Hanyu is the only one who does four full rotations in the air. The rest are like 3 and a half or almost four, but with Kamilla she pre-rotates so much that I legit could only count about 2 and a half full rotations in the air, and that’s being optimistic, sometimes it looks like only 2 full rotations.
Brian orser's students have the best technique.
Yes
While I won’t disagree, I actually like Mishin’s technique more.
Yes they do. As you know, a COACH teaches technique. Brian orser offered to train Kamila, i'm sure you know this. He doesn't just take anybody, only the best
@@primalcritters Kamilla would have been the best if Brian fixed her technique. That would be interesting. She could have been a complete skater.
@@primalcritterswhen did he offered to train her?
Love how much conscientious thought goes into this analysis! Respect and grace to the athlete-- who honestly, deserves it, technical components aside--as a human. And still maintaining opinions about the skating, which should take the forefront in a sport. Just good tact, which I appreciate.
Thank you!
Absolutely! This is why I appreciate Eric’s in-depth analysis! He shows these jumps clearly and completely by his slow-motion and stop camera methods. BTW I loved the comparison of different skater’s jumps in this one!
Problems (and props) can be very difficult to catch at full speed. I also agree completely that the judging system needs to agree on and stick to specific GOE guidelines (as in their stance on prerotation). AND not just shower a specific skater with excessive GOEs, especially when they’re a “favorite!”
I saw a video that says there's a Eteri bonus points these girls get by being coached by Eteri. Before seeing this video, I did noticed these when Alexandra and Alena left Eteri for Plushenko and were not receiving as high GOEs and POCs when they were under Eteri. And then, both girls went back to Eteri.
Great analysis! I agree that her GOE should be lower. I feel for skaters out there with a cleaner technique in their jumps that don't get better goe, or even skaters that jump withe the same technique as her that also don't get the same goe.
Yuzus quad lutz is nuts!!! His picking foot is also interesting that it’s almost parallel to his left foot.
I really love yuzu 4lutz, its quite pity that he has done not many of it....
And yes he is the textbook example of figure skating with Kim Yuna too.
I am so sick of pre rotations, the goe and the pcs that the judges giving to the skaters nowadays It is so unfair for some skillful skaters.
Thank you for the video, hope u do more. See you next time.🤗🤗🤗
Your acting like they arnt skillful…
@@aniawacht3882To be honest...
Thanks for pointing this out! It’s easy to be impressed by Kamila’s jumps based on the difficult arm positions and beautiful landing position, but it’s so hard to notice pre-rotation in real time. The russian coaches definitely have a pattern of teaching techniques which make the cheated jumps easier to get away with by finding loopholes in the rules. Like the Sochi Olympics where the winner had wrong edges on jumps and pre-rotated while Yuna Kim had flawless technique but was not awarded. It’s so unfair
The judges give rediculous GOEs to Valieva, Trusova etc. Without them, they still win above other girls though but not by 20-30 points like right now.
Trusova has best technique girl who doing quads
You mentioned windmill arms but what I noticed in particular is that Kamila prerotates with her upperbody a lot? Like before the prerotation on the toe pick she’s already turned her torso to the side while Nathan and Yuzu are always facing the same way upper and lower body when they pick. Is this not the kind of faulty technique that injured Evgenia’s back? Or could I be wrong?
Yes same as med. She preroatates upper body, uses her arms and back to muscle up into the jump and turns on the ice excessively before her foot actually leave the ice
Oh no, not another one! 🥺
she'll be like med and have a debilitating back injury within a couple years.
Ah no wonder I feel familiar feeling between kamila and evgenia, but I couldn't pin point it. I didn't think this cheating technique has severe consequence. I hope figure skating can be better with their rule.
@@KIMBYAWOON This pre-rotation and almost full blade assist is an Eteri method. The ISU doesn’t always consider this deduction. Personally I wouldn’t even score these jumps as a quad…they’re closer to a triple when they’re 3/4 or more pre-rotated and sometimes cheated by a 1/4 on landing. This is an Eteri training technique that eventually leads to injury that she blames on her skaters because she always has a full stable to replace them each season if they are no longer winning on the Russian Nats, Olympics, or Worlds. Once these poor girls reach puberty and get off-time or off-axis with their jumps, even if they do get or if they are too injured to skate, she drops them and blames the skaters themselves (weight, injury that she never lets heal, or having the strength to train at least 12 hrs per day etc) It disgusts me. I had one coach like that, and I switched for a less “famous” coach, and I was healthier and more successful than I’d ever been. I progressed in jumps and spins more quickly and consistently with a coach who let me eat more than 750 calories per day while training 10hrs per day…Eteri doesn’t care if that strength and performance lasts more than a season or two.
This is very interesting and thought provoking, but I would like to bring forward some other observations.
First let's point out this is not an empirical bio-mechanical analysis. That said, I think there are many aspects to consider.
Since there is literally NO officially published criterion defining what pre-rotation actually is (except as mentioned for the toe-loop) Eric is qualitatively analyzing pre-rotation in terms of observation of the blade on the ice at takeoff. That is a way one could look at it in the absence of a definition (and is logical as that is how landing rotation is evaluated).
However, I would like to point out that the human body is a jointed segmented system and not a simple projectile in the Newtonian sense. Thus one could have less rotation of the takeoff blade but more rotation of the lower and upper body cores to compensate.
Therefore, on 4Lz for example, a skaters such as Hanyu or Boyang Jin are loading the inside of the toe pick (ankle) at takeoff at high velocity approach. This will cause less rotation of the blade (aka pivot) through the takeoff (this would be considered less prerotation of the takeoff foot). I refer to this type of Lz takeoff as the "vault" method. This produces a jump that tends to be higher and longer than using the "180deg pivot" method.
Both Hanyu and Jin regularly perform this jump at .70 sec or more. This is important to note due to the fact that their initial rotational velocity can be slightly decreased by the lack of "pivot" on the toe-pick of the takeoff blade. However, if you look at the upper and lower body core, you will see plenty of twist away from that blade putting the shoulders in a similar "pre-rotation" position as seen on the pivot method. Nathan generally has more body core (especially upper) pre-rotation at takeoff than many of his competitors. This allows him to achieve higher rotation rates over slightly reduced flight times (efficiency).
You generally tend to see the vault takeoff more commonly in male skaters, and the pivot in females (there are exceptions in both disciplines). Also entry speed is a factor.
Both techniques will get the job done and have their pros and cons. For example, the vaulting method puts a great deal of additional torquing stress on the inside of picking leg. This could possibly lead to higher risk of ankle knee and hip damage of the takeoff leg. In slow motion video I particularly notice the stress on the medial collateral ligament of the knee and the soft tissues of the hip. The ankle is generally anchored by the ever stiffer and lighter boots the skaters are wearing, but If the skater were to have bone weakness they also would perhaps be at elevated risk of torquing (spiral) type fractures of the tibia and fibula. Also the increased parabolic flight results in a higher impact force (shock) at landing also adding to the potential damage over time. Finally the increase twist away from the takeoff through the body cores could also potentially result in an tendon tearing off the Ilium on takeoff side or increase risk of an avulsion fracture (I think Nathan has had this happen on 4T?).
In the pivot type takeoff, more angular momentum in generally converted to the initial rotational acceleration thus increasing maximal rotational velocities in a tradeoff with slightly less flight time and distance to maintain a ratio where the required rotation can still be completed before impact at landing. Since the vaulting leg is turning more with the rotational acceleration of the lower body core, there would conceivably be slightly less stress on the overall picking and landing kinetic chains as detailed above. So it could be said that the pivot (blade pre-rotation) type of takeoff could be more "efficient" than the traditional vault (especially when you take into account there are 6 other jump passes in a long program. So each jump pass that saves even a little energy and force of impact can add up throughout a program). This is all just conjecture however, as there are only a few handfuls of good scientific jump studies in this sport.
So what is my incredibly long winded point here? . . . . . . It is that Jumping technique (especially at this level) can be VERY VERY complicated. Technique is merely a method one uses to do something. So to say one way is "better" than another at just a glance may be a bit overly simplistic. We can debate the influence of other aspects of training (especially chemical . .lol) all day long (and that is fair); but it is apparent "technique" in this sport has evolved a great deal in the last decade, yielding exponential increases in the performance of many athletes (not just from ROC).
I certainly would hesitate to label any one method as "dreadful" or "wrong" or "bad" when it has consistently aided the top skaters in the world to continually achieve record scores and consistently pushing the ceiling on what is and may be possible.
If you read this whole thing. . . .YOU deserve a medal!!!! LOL. . . .Thank you, Eric for taking the time to put this topic out there.
CC
Wow this is a lot haha thank you for the long and thoughtful comment! I agree with a lot of what you said. I like your naming of “vault” lutzes; someone like Boyang definitely has that. And yes to an extreme extent like Yuzu with 0 pre rotation, that could actually be bad for the body - I believe one of his injuries was related to that on 4Lz.
Yes, jumping technique is complicated. However, I would bargain that if you go poll a ton of coaches and skating officials on which is better: a Boyang/Hanyu/Kolyada/Nathan quad lutz with almost 0 pre rotation vs. an Anna S quad lutz or Shoma Uno quad flip with a lot of pre rotation / full blade take off, I would bet you that the vast majority would indeed say the former is “better”. I don’t think the latter is dreadful or anything, I DO think it is physical compensation for not being able to really do a completely “proper” lutz as we have mostly defined it historically. In any case you’re right that there’s nothing “official” about this right now so it is opinion, but I guess this is where my skating experience/intuition/“hunch” comes in that informs my opinion!
As Eric mentioned, even though jumping technique may vary and all of them are designed to get the same result i.e. 3 or 4 rotations the quality and look of the jumps are totally different. Lutz and flip with the "vault" method is spectacular, great height, and aesthetically pleasing. Whereas the prerotation version is just ugly and looking "muscly" my opinion. The one that Kamila did is almost the same with Satoko, very heavily prerotated. But Satoko fairly got small GOE plus she UR her jumps a lot (even with the prerotation) compared to Kamila who got +4 or +5 easily.
In the age of IJS where jump rotations are counted with downgrade, UR, q, etc have their specific deductions rules, it's fair to review whether the rotations are done in the air completely or some done on the ice. Kamila 3Lz and 3F are basically only about 2 - 2.25 rotation in the air so compared to the vault technique with 2.75 - 3 rotations you'll wonder whether it would be fair if both are getting same GOE. Some also mention that this technique put strain on the back which cause injury later on.
@@yohanes2034 I could not agree more. If you get deduction if you don't have enough rotation then it should matter at both landing and take off.
That so called 'efficient ' full blade assist technique already showed with the third generation on Eteri skaters that it doesn't work with full grown-up, higher body mass and stiffness female body. Plus they all had injuries, including a devastating hip injury for Dariya. The way those girls dig toe pick sideways and not straight ( like Yuzu or Nathan) into the ice while pre-rotating puts incredible stress on hip joint and can cause torn labrum. Look at old-time skaters who had hip injury with this kind of picking technique (like Michelle Kwan, Evan Lysacek, Alysa Czizny, for example). I think this kind of technique picking inwards into rotation should evaluated by professionals with regard of what kind of damage it causes to body over time and excessive rotation (over 1/4) should be penalized. But I guess, who cares about logevity, when there is a whole battalion of disposable young, flexible, light bodies in Eteri's arsenal 🙄
@@tigerskatemom I understand your point. Possible. There is simply NO data or studies rre. different techniques and injuries, and even if funded, very difficult to study as labral tissue tears could often have been the result of poor axis landings and/ or cumulative effect of takeoff and landing stressors. . . .so dozens of horizontal studies would also need to be performed and the validity of the "science" would still be suspect... (everybody seems to suddenly be an expert on this stuff and there is no data to support any of it).
Also the description of "efficient" was strictly applicable as to describe the amount of blade and hip rotation (ie more). Unfortunately many cannotate that with "better".
To be clear, I'm neither advocating, suggesting nor defending one way or the other. Just trying to clarify the discussion. If we start evaluating blade rotation on takeoffs at the tech panel level, it will need to be clearly defined for each different takeoff. Let's take toe-loop for example: should the same blade rotation evaluation be applied to that takeoff? . . .. And whist we are at it, should we clarify a deduction for two foot assisted takeoff on (1234)S as well?
In bio-mechanics rotation of a complex body is evaluated by the perceived center of mass of that object. Not by the movement at the extremities. Humans can externally and internally rotate their hip joints. So a skater that can get away with 1/4 to 1/2 prerotation of the blade at takeoff and can internally rotate their femur 1/4 to 1/2 rotation prior to impact at landing. Thus is performing on average 2.25-2.5 turns of the blade "in the air" on a triple jump. There is variation.
Thank you for adding important insight to the discussion. :)
The "combo technique" of getting momentum for the second jump is very disturbing to the rhythm but also makes the combo feel like two jumps and not a combo (basically a sequence) and it should 100% get a goe under 0.
agreed, and sometimes Eteri skaters have a habit of switching between outside to inside to outside edge before their second jump
Their jump technique always bother me tbh. Because of using the upper body to generate force to jump, the 2nd jump on their combos always look forced and ugly for me. Like, they land, then paused a bit, then forcing their arms and upper body to jump again. Just look at Valieva/Scherbakova. Idk how that can generate such ridiculous GOEs but it's Eteri and Rusfed, so /shrugs/
@@rayneforresy640 Absolutely! Valieva (especially) as well as Scherbakova have terrible hitch and pull, (that can hide a cheated jump…esp when they changes edge) I don’t believe that should technically be counted as a combo
@@емілі-п1в ye. For me it's too ugly. And we all know Eteri taught those things to her girls to hide edges, rotate faster, etc. It's destroying them tho. But all in all it's very common these days. It's simply because the judges incompetent in judging. Stupid, corrupt ISU
Thank you! So interesting!
And that is the reason why any new to figure skating or want to learn figure skating, still and until now, DUG UP all Yuna Kim's videos and programs to learn proper jumping technique, plus ofcourse the unmatched artistry. She is just the TEXTBOOK.
Her helicopter 🚁 arms are just like Meddvrdevas so it's obviously a coaching issue.
But just WOW at Yuzus amazing quad lutz! The man's a bot 😂
This is a great video, a few things that still stuck out to me, especially when it comes to the free scare for the team event, is that in most of her jumps she was still rotating when she landed. There was also the fall that when first happened was given a negative GOE and a split second later it changed to being under review
This is where tech, as proposed/recommended by Hanyu, can help. He thought about this on his thesis, acknowledging the difficulty the judges face in checking this.
Skaters like Kamila Valieva who prerotates their 3F and 3Lz excessively on the ice have small jumps. Its just bad that she get high GOE although her 3Lz and 3F both didnt satisfy the criteria of “very good height and very good length”, nor do they satisfy the criteria of good take-off.
Yuzuru is on another level. Love himmm 💜💘💫‼️
I’ve watched quite a few videos of Valieva’s extreme pre-rotation. I know this is a specific training technique used by the Eteri since it’s not completely obvious without serious analysis like you provide here, Eric! Nor is it judged consistently by the ISU. At this point it has gotten so egregious that I cannot believe these jumps are even considered quads. Valieva has exhibited over 3/4 pro-rotation in different videos. I would like to see more in depth analysis of Scherbakova’s quad at the Olympics, truthfully to me the same quad in combination does not make her a “quad queen”….completely MY opinion.
BUT my biggest point of contention is that fan fanaticism on other threads regarding the ban (sanction) on Russian skaters in international competition this season. BUT too many fans keep saying that Russian skaters are the best in the world, and they claim they won’t even watch Worlds without the Russian skaters. Some even claim it would be “boring” without the Russian skaters. I’ve pointed out on many of these threads that the Russians do NOT dominate in pairs or mens. As a former competitive figure skater, this fan fanaticism has gone too far. I post this here only because I know there are more skaters and more informed fans here.
I am sorry for the Russian skaters who will miss out on these opportunities. I’m just tired of people who are so fanatical that they even claim that international competition will be “boring” without Russian skaters.🙄 Sakamoto did win bronze, people, and there are still other exciting Women’s competitors. Sorry if this is too off topic. I would just like to hear others’ opinions on a better feed such as this ☺️
actually worlds 2022 would even be so amazing and much more exciting. We'll get to see skaters with incredible and amazing artistry. Especially female skaters who ACTUALLY have the choreography going into the jumps and not just a program filled with jumps after jumps.
I mean I do like some of the Russian skaters. Liza Tuk is one of them, their pairs and men aren't bad either. Always love Kolyada, the guy actually got the technique and presentation but his previous coach was just not a good one for him. Tuk got the best technique amongst Russian ladies, too bad her programs often empty tho.
Honestly it's mostly the Eteri girls that just ruined my enjoyment in watching Ladies figure skating. Well more like Eteri, and Rusfed destroying these girls future. And probably won't change in another quad 😢
@@jazmereflores9749 I agree completely! I’m very excited to see the Japanese skaters, especially Sakamoto and Higuchi as well as other women’s skaters ☺️ I’ve gotten tired of the Eteri girl’s dominating with the egregious pre-rotation and (some cheated landings) that are not called by the ISU technical analysts and/or judges. Yes, part of the problem is the ISU’s inconsistent judging (especially when they award the highest GEOs).
I’m excited to see Sakamoto and Higuchi (excuse me if I’ve spelled these beautiful skater’s names) as well as many other women skaters!
@@jazmereflores9749 Oh just watched Isabeau’s US Nationals, and I’m so eager to see more of her. She’s a beautiful skater, and only under-rotated her triple triple combo…(as far as I can see from one slo-mo of that particular jump combo.
@@емілі-п1в I’m so excited to see how she progresses too! Her free in nationals really captivated me, she has so much control in her skating i loved the part where she curves to a stop after a jump in time with the music
This was amazing, informative video.
Isn't prerotation what has been causing a lot of back injuries too?
Good explanation, examples, and illustrations.
Thank you! Really interesting 💖
Ridiculous how some with bad technique get the same / more GOE than those with good technique
I'm so glad someone is really analyzing these jumps. It doesn't look like the technical panel is. Do they know how a "lutz" should take off? If they did then there should not any GOE given on the jumps. Wrong edges on take offs of the jump aren't called.
This is fascinating!!
Hmmmm🤔How can it be called a quad “jump” if it’s pre rotated in the ice so much. There were more rotations OFF the ice for Nathan than for Kamilla. Not really understanding how hers can be considered quad jumps.
YUZURI IS 👏 TEXT 👏 BOOK 👏 PERFECT
So according to the rules, prerotation and using too much blade on toe jumps should automatically disqualify a skater from receiving +4 and +5 GOE. Truly, Kamila (and many other skaters tbh) receiving such high GOEs for such prerotated jumps is a slap in the face to skaters with textbook technique, like Rika Kihira (who's sadly not competing at these Olympics).
Also, isn't the excessive prerotation technique the reason why so many of Eteri's students retire young with back injuries? I've heard that before, but not sure how true it really is.
Show me the rules where prerotation is punished? Some jumps REQUIRE prerotation. Look at Toes and Salchows of Nathan Chen and Yuzuru Hanyu. They prerotate as well. No one punishes them for that. Full blafe assistance is another "myth" created by some stupid idiots that have no idea about rules. All figure skaters jump with toe assistance. They just tend to put the blade close to the surface of ice. Do they have to be punished for that? Of coarse not.
@@Eagle90able dude, my comment was literally a reaction to what was said in the video, i.e. that a jump without "good take-off" is not supposed to get +4 and +5 GOE. It's all there man, so is the comparison with Nathan and Yuzuru's jumps. Maybe watch the video first and go on a ridiculous rant later?
@@Unfiltered494 First read the rules. Or at least read a book written by an actual coach, Mishin, for example, And then write stupid comments. There are a lot of videos on TH-cam spreading misleading information and after that idiots who watched them start writing ignorant things. Prerotation is not considered a poor takeoff if the jump is fully rotated. So jumping like that is absolutely legal. Prerotation is never punished and the lack of it is never rewarded because it's a natural thing to happen while performing most of the jumps.
@@Eagle90able "severe" prerotation is indicstion of bad technique. The OP obviously commented on Kamila 3/4 quarter on ice rotation. If she is only doing 1/4 wr won't even have this video in the 1st place.
For now it's not punished and ET is smart looking at the loopholes. But it's still an indication of poor technique, far away from the lutz and flip done by Nathan, Yuzuru, etc. Also the video mentioned lutz and flip and you went on rant about salchow... pay attention dude
@@yohanes2034 It's not an indication of a bad technique. Prerotation is never looked at because it has nothing to do with anything. It's just a certain way to jump. It is never considered a poor take off or anything at all because figure skater still has three full rotations in the air. Prerotation was just something fans created out of nothing as long as with this bullshit called "full blade assist".
She might do a 4 sal but she has serious problems with her pre rotated flip and lutz. Those jumps will never be quads since they're not even triples. Her toe combinations are rhythmic yes but.... I prefer Yuna and Midori's combination jumps. If you want to see amazing lutz technique you should watch Tonya Harding and Tatiana Malinina. I feel like if Valieva took from a proper coach, she could be amazing.
Hi Eric, loved your content thus far although there are points that I don't quite agree with you. But I can see that your analysis were mostly unbiased and with respect. So I enjoyed it nonetheless. Please keep it up!
Btw just want to point out that Fanyus are the group of people who contantly point out (for many years) the fact that Yuzuru is one of the jumpers with best technique, if not the best. There are lots of analysis videos where jumps from different jumpers were compared and scrutinised side by side. And GOEs were compared too. And you know what? The Lutz landed by Yuzuru with similar quality with the one you shown here was only awarded with a GOE of 3.61. And on the exact same field the Lutz that was performed by the other skater was awarded GOE +4.27 (axis little off, lack of transition, prerotation at between 90-180°).
Then you'll see antis comments like "the judges judged on the field, and you're only judging on a display", "Fanyus think they're better than judges" "Analysis done by a obsessive fanyu who is a 14-year-old girl" etc. In fact there are commentators like the Italian Maximiliano ambesi who did analysis videos on Yuzuru and other skaters' jumps too.
But sadly, even with clear footage like this Fanyus are still being mocked just because they defended Yuzuru Hanyu. There's enough said but nothing's done with the judging system.
Well... No matter how well yuzu skates, pcs gonna low when compared to other not so good skaters. No matter how difficult are the transitions in and out in jumping, no pre under-rotaiton, GOEs are gonna low.
Isu has a very big expectation from him i guess, maybe thats the reason y even with small mistakes hanyu made, they will lower his goe n pcs and i am getting pissed off.
Its not that i am hating on the other skaters for that, but im hating on the isu judging skills.
Even yuzu know about this, that y his thesis he is suggesting AI to take over.
Corrupted judging system.
Do you have any idea what is the secret of Yuzuru Hanyu’s longevity in the field of FS? And why is he not aging? Thank you 🙏 😊
Honestly, that might have to be a question for Hanyu himself :) It is indeed amazing he’s been at the top of the (and his) game for 3 Olympic cycles now. I’m sure it’s a small part genetics, and mostly great training/lifestyle!
@@EricStinehart thank you 🙏
I'd say technique, discipline in training, and mental endurance.
@@EM-rm2xh plus good Japanese genes
Eric, great video as usual! I think that the whole thing where the judges or some special panel person needs to watch the "degree of prerotation" is absolutely ridiculous because as you know and anybody who ever skated who ever tried to fix something like the pre rotation or some aspect of their ""incorrect" jump technique(Mesvedeeva, need I say more....) after doing it incorrectly practically since child birth over 10,000 times, it is 99.99999999% impossible to reprogram those kinds of biomechanics. Not going to happen... If we look at Valieva's pre rotation today or a year ago or say Shoma Uno's quad flip full blade 3/4+ pre rotation today vs 4 years ago IT IS IDENTICAL... So the notion that the judges have to "check" after what I have just said is ludicrous. In my opinion, there should be a standard for an acceptable amount of pre rotation say like Nathan Chen which is in normal range of what is possible and efficient biomechanically speaking. Then they should have a stiff penalty for the 3/4 full blade crap like at least -5 because it's technically NOT a flip or lutz. In cycling like Tour De France, they have something called a biological passport that maps out what a certain cyclists blood biological markers are like hematocrit levels, so when they get tested to make sure they are not doping, it is pretty clear if they're cheating. It would be very easy to do this for skaters, I kind of have something like this for many skaters in my head. For example, I know that Kolyada and Hanyu have ZERO pre rotation on flip and Lutz. I know Nathan has slightly more than Boyang Jin... All these guys are the top end of quad Lutzes and flips to be sure. Then you have the Shoma Uno and Aliev contingent who have the full blade stuff going on and they're really just doing a loop jump. There is no need to watch Shoma's take off to see if he still does the full blade because he will ALWAYS DO IT THAT WAY... Shoma's quad flip, Trusova's quad flip/Lutz full blade/EVERYBODY should have some kind of pre rated technique for each jump(with the appropriate downgrade ALREADY programmed into the computer) so when the judge gives the score for that jump there is an automatic subtraction. That would be a great place to start. Hanyu and Kolyada can get a +7 for their clean take off for the few times they have so magnificently landed their quad Lutzes.... Hell I would give Kolyada a +20 for the quad Lutz he did in that 2019 sp because it was so phenomenal! Lol! What do you think about this idea? If a skater is marked a certain way and actually improves their technique in terms of pre rotation somehow they can do some test and get an upgraded base score for that particular element.... I think that would make things more fair and give the judges less wiggle room to do the B.S. that they do now giving way too high of goe scores for certain skaters. The whole reason they went away from the 6.0 scale was to make skating judging more quantifiable, right? Then the coaches could decide whether it is worth it to trade pure technique for getting the jumps initially and being slightly more consistent at the lower levels. That's really what we're talking about here anyway isn't it?
Great thoughts and I agree.
@@headachebaby Thank you!
I totally agree that Kamila's Ultra C jumps look spectacular but not her triples. Excessive pre-rotations are in my opinion a form of cheating which also unfairly improves consistency. Properly executed jumps (like those of Yuna Kim's) have a higher falling rate and should thus merit higher GOEs. Valieva's combi jump technique with her odd knee action look aesthetically unpleasant to me at best. It is sad that proper jump techniques are being bastardized and that those responsible are reaping rewards.
I love your videos! I would like to see a more in-depth analysis of her quads, maybe comparing them to those of her training mates?
So what you are saying is that her quads are basically just modified entrances into triple axels.
As a casual fan i appreciate the explaining and the content.
These jumps did not even take off from the toepick. She fully took off of the right outside edge. Both her flip and Lutz are actually loop jumps because of her takeoff from the full blade and not the toepick.
If one athlete uses wrong tech and didn’t get any punishment from the judge system. Other young athletes will see this “shortcut approach” to get more bv and goe. That’s why the nowadays figure skating looks more and more ugly. ISU may call it developments. Others will call it collapse.
Hanyu's 4 lz is AMAZING but look the GOE he got! The judges of ISU is just full of bias and double standard. The ones who jump with prerotation to a degree that it's not even a quad get higher GOE. How sad this sport is.
I recommend watching Machida as well. I thought at the time Hanyu mimicked his technique in some ways bc he leaves the ice right away too.
She is russian and an Eteri girl lmao so she gets a pass like they always do.
I too think kamila is the best skater in the world
Great video! I look forward to future analyses! :D
Huh...I am by no means an expert, but I'd take off for effortless looking. The Eteri girls all look like they are gearing up for the long jump. Especially in the combo because even Valieva breaks at the waist most of the time. It doesn't look like Kaori, Loena, Rika, Tuktamysheva, or even Gracie's. I am totes impressed by what she does.
Sometimes I think people get confused between "make something look effortless" and "make something look impressive."
Part of why I will always say Hanyu is the GOAT. As a professional coach, I can't fault athletes for using what is being given to them though. It's on the judges and officials to properly score and reward the better quality jumps, and them not doing it actively promotes having to game the system.
Thank you for the video! Finally, someone sees Tutberidze's cheated jumps. They should be judged as downgraded
I guess that ISU SHOULD be more critical on prerotation issue, because a lot of Tutberitze students have prerotation problems and we can see how many of them have back problems later (Lipnitskaya, Medvedeva). I don't want that to happen to these young girls as well(((
And some people dare to say that the current World champion and Olympic champion in ladies has PERFECT technique and she deserves those medals…. After watching Chen, Yuzuru or other women, it’s just a bigger joke that a woman who only jumps 3 and 3,25 Flootz has those medals
Such a great analysis… as usual lol. It’d be interesting to consider these biases from a judging perspective since if you look historically, Mao was super penalized for her inside edge lutz… what are your thoughts on the consistency of how judges do their part to promote good technique? 🤔
Not always consistent 😢
this is what angers me the most. mao always (rightfully) got called for her incorrect lutz edge and she worked so hard to try and get it right, just for other skaters to do an inside edge and get away with it. it's so unfair how they pick and choose who gets called or not...
I think ISU is just too poor to have the equipment to detect pre-rotation. They only have their eyes to detect at that moment. Not to mention their vision is very bad because ISU just cannot afford to buy them good glasses. We should do a Gofundme to buy that equipment for them, or at least get the judges good glasses.
I suggest we buy them new eyes. Make that a new head and a new brain.
Subscriber 431. Greetings from Córdoba, Argentina!
Don't forget about reacting to Adelina's performance and thanks for your analysis, I was wondering what figure skaters may think about the constant pre-rotations and the scores this jumps get...
Noooo! This neverending discussion about Sochi doesn't need more chapters
@@breno7049 her gold was historic and will always be remembered, with so many biased opinions and analysis someone neutral has to give his take, imo.
They aren't even allowed to watch take-offs in slow-motion. Only the landing. I've read the rules and I found nothing on watching jumps in slo-mo for take off. So it's indeed on the system yet ISU seems to be pretty content in its inability to mark down athletes from a certain federations and more specifically those who are coached by a certain coach. Even at the olympics. People were hit with edge calls left right and center and yet Anya's flat Lutz didn't even receive a warning while Trusova her flip received a warning.
Eteri's school gets away with it every single time. That is why she never really exert an effort to correct it.
@@bobababy6089 indeed but I find it weird that her having been ice dancer, she is so negligent in take off edges.
@@YannisGoedermans she doesn’t correct it so if they leave her she can use it against them. Like Medvedeva and Trusova. They never got edge calls until they left her.
Thank you for your analysis! For me her combos look like sequences and never get called out. Her 4T 4S always has pre-rotation, i would say > 180 degrees. Also her "quads" shave the ice so badly before leaving the ice, i've never seen any skater damage the ice so badly than her, does it help her quad more consistent? I think the only jump that she do well is the 3A.
4T 4S require pre rotation and when I looked at for example 4T comparison with Nathan Chen, I didn’t see a huge difference in terms of that. Maybe I’ll have to go back and look deeper, compare with other skaters etc. but I do think the quads are mostly technically fine! 3A is great except there is definitely a school of thought that questions the one arm technique/longevity of that - but as I said, she’s showing us all & doing it great now.
@@EricStinehart Russian girls today are much stronger than anyone in the world. I am sure that all three places at the Olympics will be Russian. Nobody can compete with them. The Russians have gone ahead, they have a very strong school.
@@EricStinehart A very strong school with coach Tutberidze. Russians skate beautifully, they are plastic and very feminine, they have a strong ballet school
@@EricStinehart Kamila says she relies on her Rippon to stabilize her axis on her 3A. Idk if you might think that’s good or bad.
@@jonathanm.9801 It's not just on her 3A. It's on her jumps tbh. If see carefully, she does have weird axis when jumping. And honestly it's scary, be it for us or her. It's no wonder she needs to rippon to balance
Her jumping technical issues were not only with the pre-rotation, but also the combinations. Tilts of her right foot on the take-off did not look effortless(means she did not deserve +4 or +5 on ALL her combinations).
I would say that the frame rate of the video you use to try analysing the technique is too low and the compression level is too high. White blades are blurred with the ice because of the frame compression and if I’m not wrong to define pre rotation or under rotation you should measure angles between the blade’s edge and the line connecting the taking off and landing points. I’m sure that judges use the software calculating this, which notifies them if these angles are too high. Sometimes video operators insert the jump stage frames with slowed replay of the performance part with exact taking off and landing frames. If you don’t trust their software you should convert the video to eliminate the frames compression first and only after that manually search the frame of taking off and landing. Then connect these points with the line and try estimating angles, considering that you also have the 2D projection. Otherwise you just choose random blurred frames and say that you see something there.
I've been waiting for this video to hear your take on it. Personally, I hate this technique cause it looks ugly. For lutz and flip, it goes against the mechanic of the jump. Lutz and flip should take off from the toe pick without the assistance of the blade. Now the rules don't clearly mention about prerotation and how to punish it and specific to Kamila:
- I'd not give the height and length bullet because the jump has too much prerotation, it basically only has about 2 rotation in the air. The jump naturally is tiny/ small and in no way fulfill this bullet. Like Satoko which has similar prerotation (around 3/4 on ice), the height needed to complete rotation is less than compared to your textbook jump
- regarding the carrot, you can give poor takeoff deduction. But with ISU being unclear and vague as their virtue, it's debatable regarding the definition of poor takeoff.
So at best it should not be given more than +3 GOE or at worst receiving 0 GOE or even minus GOE if she can't fulfill other bullets.
Now regarding his 3T combo and the change of edge from outside to flat, I'd say it disturbs rhythm and flow which means another mandatory bullet for more than +3 GOE is not met (beside great height and length). Regarding the carrot, you can give deduction for bad rhythm (besides deduction for poor takeoff). So for her combo jumps, I'd say the GOE range is within minus to 0 GOE if you count the deductions.
At the end if deductions are not taken into account, it shouldn't be getting more than +3 GOE cause if she gets it then it'll be invalidating skaters with good technique. You have to see the 3F of skater from Czech, she has textbook technique and received 0.83 GOE vs Kami 2.12 GOE. If ISU don't start to punish this then in the next 5 or 10 years, correct toe jump technique will be gone because coaches will continue to teach this bad technique. If it ain't broke why fix it right?
I appreciate your insights. You seem to like to talk about where blame should be placed and it isn't skater's fault, etc. I appreciate your willingness to be kind to some folks, but I don't think it is necessary. For excellence, we need everyone committed moving forward and not worrying so much about the "innocence" of someone getting away and rewarded with poor technique. I remember some past competitions where Eteri was unhappy when her skaters were called on prerotation, but somehow that issue got put aside for the most part the past couple years. It'll be good if the rules can be reinforced. Perhaps that can happen by demanding the technical panel by name explain themselves in light of the rules of how much of the jump needs to be in the air. After being tired of explaining the unexplainable, maybe the technical panel at least with slow motion will more willingly downgrade jumps as needed. Thank you again for your thoughtful commentary Eric. I feel disappointed by the doping scandal, etc. with the recent Olympics, but won't give up being a fan or still skating myself for fun.
I'd be curious to see what scores that insane Lutz jump from Yuzuru got
You dont need to know ,just enjoy it.iam sure its slower then nathan chen 😗
Could you make Yuna Kim's jumps analysis?
Great idea! Will try to do that at some point, after Olympics stuff.
Appreciate your hard work. Funny is that some skaters are still punished with wrong take off and some arent
Thank you 🥺😃
Ha! If we take a look of the GOE of so called quad by many skaters, Hanyu's 4 luz should be 5 luz. So many skaters's quads are not even quads. ISU is so corrupt that they gave higher goe to skaters with worse tech and the one who actually have correct technique got lower GOE. It's a punishment and so unfair. No wonder it's getting rare to see skaters with correct techniques. The 2022 WC men's event is just so horrible.
Maybe too late in the day but pls do an analysis of YUNA KIMs jumps. Thanks
I really think she's in league of her own. Her greatness lies in the fluidity of movement and the feeling of effortlessness that permeates jer every performance. She doesn't even need to do jumps, I'd still watch.
I think 4k + 120 frames per second would be really helpful in analyzing these. Great video!
Isn’t pre-rotation what’s hurting all of team tutberidze’s backs? Judges should be looking for this technique and punishing it for the safety of the skaters
No wonder though, tutberidze kids just some quads girls w/o proper technique, some big publishers release articles saying they are disposable at 17 y.o... so sad. That's why people can differentiate which one is true good skater. And no one from tutberidze kids.
another nonsense of haters, no wonder
@@Кузькинамать-о4и The facts speak for themselves. We have yet to see any Tutberidze skater still remaining competitive in their 20s.
It's not Eteri's fault that her juniors are always superior to the current non-Russian seniors... Valieva may retire after winning the olympics and worlds, but it's not her fault, she already won everything and wants to have a normal life outside of the competencies. In the end, the fault lies with the mediocrity of their non-Russian rivals... Before you cry why Eteri's skaters retire so early, ask yourself why the skaters from her country don't even tickle the Russians.
@@alexeynovikov4178 before you say other skaters outside of Eteri sambo 70 school as "mediocre" (which IMO is such an insult), her skaters high scores are often very inflated. Sure her skaters have high BV because of quads and trixels, but even when they fell they still win. Plus the SS are often not developed well. Case on point Anna, Sasha, and Kamila have underdeveloped SS compared to most Japanese or Korean skaters.
It's not that I'm anti ET skaters, in fact I love Kostornaia because she's well balanced skater. And I'm not anti Russia either because even in Russia domestic competition ET skaters received preferential treatment and I loathe it.
@@turtlefeesh if I won the Olympic Games and received millions for a TV show, like Medvedeva and Zagitova, why the hell should I kill myself at competitions, getting a penny for it? It is not Tutberidze who decides whether the girls will continue their careers or go to earn millions in the show. It is the decision of the girls themselves. And besides, Medvedeva and Zagitova do not have quads to compete in Russia with other skaters in order to qualify for the World Championships, Europe or the Olympic Games, and they understand this very well. So they left to earn in the show. They are both now in Beijing, commenting on competitions on the largest Russian TV channels for big money.
Thank you for making this video. There have been criticism on Eteri's method that it puts too much strains on the girls back that it kills their career prematurely. Is it possible to tell this position from the video? Or how the body is used?
A lot of Tutberidze's teaching relies on really small bodies and massive pre-rotation to get the jumps up and around and landed, which is why most of them burn out once they really hit puberty and aren't as small. The technique they're taught relies so much on them being small and using muscle groups they shouldn't that doing it for any length of time will eventually cause them to get injured and fall out of their career before it really even gets going.
Great video, please do for Sasha and Anna
Thanks for making this video. I am tired of ISU giving those prerotated jumps +5s.
I thought that there always is a technical specialist reviewing every jump? Am I wrong?
Can you do this with Trusova and Shcherbakova as well?
I think her quads are only better than her triples because she doesn’t attempt the quads where you’re not supposed to cheat the takeoff like lutz and flip 🤣
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
It's kind of a cheat that she's getting positive GOE, not at that level. The problem is there is favoritism...and none of this is applied fairly or consistently. If they are not replaying the takoff and the landing what are they judging GOE on. Those who do flat blade takeoff on a Lutz are not actually performing a Lutz.
yuzuru's 4lzs are gorgeous but sadly he can't incorporate too many into his programs cuz of his injuries :/
For me the best triples are YUNA KIM’s. So beautiful to watch.
Did you train with Jason Brown? I love the way he moves. I wish the TES would allow him to win without a quad.
Like you said, pre-rotation deduction ain't a thing in ISU stuff. Also you: Pre-rotation should be taken into consideration (in + goe in good take off). Like what? LOL
I had to stop watching at 14:00. Eric is great. I find him unpretentious, affable, attractive on camera. His voice is enthusiastic, but not...perky. I just discovered this video so I hope he has more videos to watch. I'm far more knowledgeable about gymnastics. That's where I know the code better and can give you the deductions and points.
Anyway, I'm totes subscribing.
However, when he started talking about how amazing Valieva is...the C elements...how hard she's worked for years to get to a level where she could beat everyone by 20-30 pts; I just couldn't. All I could see was her falling and crying and the ISU/IOC just saying "everything is cool...it's okay to dope a minor."
Thank you! Keep in mind I made this video before the individual event & whole doping scandal 😅 it was after team event
@@EricStinehart Oh yea. I know. You could never have known.
It just felt a little like when you watch NBC fluff pieces about Marion Jones.
Hanyu was slightly under-rotated on the landing however, so almost a quarter. So not perfect.
The Russian girls are the best guys, that's facing reality
I agree on your take except for the 3-3 combo: it is not just a matter rythm, it looks more like a sequence actually
Hey he gets the jump power by pushing his whole left boot into the ice . A girl boot cannot do this !!
У Саши техника не идеальная конечно , но почти всегда прыжки выполняет так как надо , а в замен гое меньше чем у Валиевой
Well I love Kamila & it broke my heart to see her crying & why do I keep hearing cutting edge “toe pic” in this?
It was heartbreaking to see her consigned to a pressure cooker in the Olympics and be emotionally and physically sucked dry. Child abuse.
👏✊👌👍💐❤
If the “pre rotation” is not punished and it’s k with judging system as well as quarter cheated jumps ,why talking about it ?
"This is not even normal." Many things about Yuzuru aren't normal lol. "He is half-alien and half-robot"
Valieva's jumps are hip injury in the making, that's for sure.
Очередной горе-эксперт с очередным экспертным мнением. Все судьи, тренеры, спортсмены ничего не понимают и не знают, только вы всё знаете - смех!
Человек вообще-то сам фигурист и принимал участие в ЧСША. Можно вашу историю участия в ФК получить взамен?
Why do you compare the jumps of girls with men? This is wrong. Not fair
Because they are the same jump and jumps have proper, good, bad, etc. technique regardless of gender. Do you think girls aren’t capable of jumping as good as men? Because I do (and they do). And many girl’s/women’s triple flips do not have the extreme pre rotation that Kamila does.