Tanks, Proper Filling - Scuba Tech Tips: S08E02
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2018
- Is there a process dive stores should follow when filling a divers tank? Alec shares 5 key points store staff should follow when filling to ensure a safe and proper fill.
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Hi Alec, I'm a complete noob where scuba is concerned, I'm soaking up all info, watching a lot of informative videos, yours I have to say are very concise, eloquently voiced and enjoyable to watch, thank you.
Well thanks Andy. Don't hesitate to ask questions.
Take care.
Alec
Here in Norway most dive stores and dive clubs has fill sations for members to use whenever they want.
That's awesome.
At my own store we were in the process of instituting a "24 Hour Self Serve Fill Station".
It was a simple matter of setting up a training program and a method of invoicing the divers. Once you took the required 2 hour course on filling tanks, you would be issued with a card that gave you access to the outside fill station and automatically charged your account.
Simple and safe, but guaranteed to cause shock waves in our tight-ass dive community.
But that's how I built the best dive store in Canada. The divers loved it.
I'm sorry I didn't get the chance to see that process completed.
Clubs and individuals with compressors have a less-than-perfect record for safety in filling tanks.
Alec
I was wondering what training is required for someone to be allowed to do air fills.
Contrary to popular belief, it's not a simple matter of hooking up your tank and turning a knob.
Here an individual must take a course, a short course granted, on the procedures and safety concerns before they can use a high pressure compressor.
Surely Norway has a similar requirement.
Alec
When i took my dive licence the store owner gave us a step by step instructions how use the fill station. This is only normal air not nitrox. And since we only use din valves it simple enought. Of course it different for store to store, club to club. We also use a water bath by the fill station helps to cool the bottle down while filling so you get more air into it.
Ole Martin
And most fill stations usually has the compressor in a sepeate room and a remote start/stop button
I like your style!
Never change.
I'm too old to change now. Thanks Adam.
I love your transparent fill panel. Just bought my own compressor and am researching nitrox sticks for continuous blending. I don't need such a fancy panel so mine will probably be a simple manifold block instead of a full panel, but it always makes me smile when someone's made an effort to make it look this pretty as well.
It was more expensive than most but all the fits are visible and yes, it looks cool too.
A
I live in Indiana, nothing but corn fields here. Still this was very interesting and maybe someday I'll have the chance to dive... I enjoy watching others "nerd out" on whatever it is they truly understand/ enjoy!.
Thank you for making enjoyable instructional videos, it really helps us new guys.
Thank you Trav.
Alec
Looking forward to seeing how your fill station works. Great video.
Thanks for watching B.
Alec
When I worked at a shop the biggest complaint I heard about other shops were short fills. I am always amazed at how easy it is to get a happy customer back in the store versus chasing them away to another shop. Before the internet word of mouth could help or hurt a dive shop. These days a short fill means instant bad reviews. I always tell whomever is filling my tanks that I don't mind coming back or waiting. I'm never in a hurry for a good fill.
Great to hear!
Taking a few extra minutes to ensure the diver gets a good fill is an excellent investment in customer satisfaction.
The fact that it increases your personal safety is a side benefit.
Take care.
Alec
Hi Alec, 1st time I've seen a filling station. Always have fun watching your channel. Be well.
Thanks Mark.
Alec
i love watching your vids and i'm not even into scuba :) thank you!
If you learn something new, that's great. But diving is so much fun, give it a try.
Alec.
Im trying to learn to take the scuba diving course. But a lot information here TANKS A LOT Alec peirce to show people how to do it right.
Great video my friend. Tami does her open water this weekend in the Flathead Lake at the Boy Scout Melita Island. We always use those plastic covers that goes over the valve opening. On mean full off means used. And can be used over again.
Say good luck to her for me Mike.
Those covers are the same as tape but with a garbage problem.
Take care buddy.
Alec
Always enjoy your tips good sir! Will attempt to get my c card soon.
C-card = certification card. Good luck.
Excellent, the last frontier of dive shop arcana I know nothing about.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Hi Alec. Maybe you can do a video on portable air quality/purity checkers that divers can use when renting tanks. How useful are they and what options are on the market? There have been some CO poisoning events caused by tanks filled with bad quality air. For me this is a very interesting topic. Keep up the good work!
Hi Alec
if possible could you do the video that you suggested (how the filling bank works) and also one about how a compressor works? They seem simple but I suspect they are much more complicated than they appear. Also, what precauutions should be made when using the compressor regarding final gas quality etc.
Thanks
Working on it Michael.
Thanks.
Alec
Yes would like to see how the filling station work, buenos días from sea of Cortez
Good idea. We'll work on that.
Alec
very nice give me the knowledge about fill the diving tanks thanks .
I hope it helps.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Good info 🖒
Glad you think so!
To prevent loss of pressure during cool down after a fill, I've seen some stores will sit the dive tank into a water tank to keep the dive tank cool during filling. Its always a good feeling to see 3000 PSI and not 2750 PSI from a hot fill, on your aluminum 80 right before entering the water.
Water tanks, baths they call them, are not used today by modern stores. They've been shown to be detrimental to the safety of the operator and diver and not that good for the tank either.
The cooling down to room temperature is done by letting the tank sit in a room for a while.
I know too well that divers want to get a fill and get going but a good tank kill should at least 30 minutes and preferably twice that.
Alec
Thanks you very much
Thanks for watching Ajesh.
Alec
Thanks buddy
Thanks for watching.
Alec
I got overrun by robust experience. Thank you sir.
There are much worse things to be overrun by!!
Take care and thanks for watching.
Alec
Hi Alec my dive center fills my tank in about 4 minutes is this normal Or can it cause damage Thanks for all your work.
Great video, I learn something every time.
As a keep diver and yacht owner, when or why should I get an air compressor onboard? Searching for diver air compressors, get me in a really bad mood, they are bloody expensive. With 2x10l and 2x12l tanks onboard I got three options. Add a few more tanks, dive less, or get my own air compressor. It will all add the need for a diesel generator. Except for the cost, how difficult is it to run and maintain an air compressor to fill diver tanks? Who makes them, different types, what to look out for?
This is an excelent question and an exccelent point
any reason for doing hot fills? i find when stores do hot fills my pressure is at 240 when they finish and when the cylinder cools its down to 200 to 210 bar. if they do the fill with a water bath they fill it to 240 (or 250 hopefully) and it doesn't get as hot so when its cooled its still at 230 to 240.
There is a widely held misconception that a water bath gives a better fill.
In fact, a water bath, originally used to lessen the impact of a tank explosion, does NOT help to give you a better fill.
If you feel the water temperature in a busy dive store, you'll find it is not cold water at all. In some cases it might become quite warm as you'd expect from having hot tanks dropped into it repeatedly.
Plus, the water bath has been discovered as the source for other problems related to tank safety.
Modern dive stores do NOT use a water bath.
You can read more about this here: www.psicylinders.com/inspectors/library/19-filling-cylinders-in-water-time-to-review
The only way to get a proper, meaning good, fill is to take the necessary time to do so.
Generally it takes at least 30 minutes to properly fill a tank. I know it can be filled in a couple of minutes. In fact it could be filled in just seconds but dive stores arbitrarily fill a tank slowly simply to please customers.
A tank must NOT be filled beyond its stamped pressure. I don't care what some tekkies will say about overfilling. It's wrong, may be illegal and certainly shortens tank life. How much it shortens your tank life no one knows until the tank tells you!!
Thus to fill a tank properly to its capacity, it must be filled slowly to the stamped pressure, then allowed to cool to room temperature (or close) and then refilled to stamped pressure. If you can get the dive store to do this process twice, you'll have a good fill, will not have harmed your tank and it was done safely too
Hope this helps.
Alec
I am just a wild lake swimmer ...with some knowledge...10 metres max really enjoy the British warmer weather ( September to November .can you recommend a cheap scuba system ....I have a Broom & Wade old compressor...but it cannot deliver...and want to buy new
Hi Alec,
are different scuba tank certifications between different countries interchangeable (D.O.T, CE, Australia standard ).
Also, is all you need to fill a tank an in-date Hydro and Visual test?
Cheers,
Ben
Good question Ben. Transporting empty tanks between countries is no problem. I'm not totally sure but once a tank is in a new country, it would follow its certification dates. Ask your local dive shop if this is something you need confirmed.
Alec
though on tank tank equalizer ? handy when buddy doesn't have as much a fill, or transfer some left over from after dive onto kid size tank for pool use...
Seems you can build one for cheap with all those air gun accessories they use to refill from scuba tanks.
Last wkd trip down Big Sur (no shop near by) with very steep rope access to water we rented tiny 65cf and brought our 120cf in the hope of partially refilling them, but didn't do second climb dive, normal diving instead.
Tank equalizers are useful when far from a fill station. They don't add air to a tank but they will allow a pair or group of divers to spread the remaining air around so they can have a second dive. With just 2 divers it's easier to simply trade tanks.
And yes they can be easily homemade. Just a length of high pressure hose and 2 yokes - one with a bleed screw. The hose only has to be 12" long. No point having an awkward 3' length.
Take care Alain.
Alec
wouldn't the height difference between a 120 and 65 require longer then a 12" wip ? also the hose would have to be a high volume, not your typical restrained HP pressure gage one. Anyway I just ordered one for aliexpress that sells the 2 parts I needed (paintball gear) for under $40. Will see.
I suppose you're right about the length Alain. Maybe 18" is enough. I just don't like to see a stupid long hose that you constantly have to coil up to store.
The inner diameter is not much of a concern. You want a slow transfer anyway. Unless you are able to adapt an SPG high pressure hose, it won't be restricted. Under HP even a restricted hose will work fine.
Alec
Hey Alec, I have a very quick question if you don't mind answering. I am pretty new to this topic so don't have much information about scuba tanks in general but I have watched some of your videos and now I have a brief understanding of them. What I wanted to ask was in case someone was supposed to innovate scuba tanks, they would have to include an O-Ring in the valve design because that is required for filling, right?
Scuba tanks, steel or aluminum, require the valve o-ring otherwise the tank will not hold a fill. It is the o-ring, not the valve, that seals the air inside. Look at my videos on tank threads S12E03 Properly Install A Tank Valve, it will show you exactly that. Hope this helps sir.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter it helped a lot sir, thank you for sparing your time for an answer
great video twin hose works at 120.....todays are 232.......be careful divers
Freaking me out for years lol
Thanks Rrrr.
Alec
Didn't know that the tank had to be reinspected if the tank pressure was allowed to get too low. Also, I didn't know you have to have a certification card to get scuba tanks refilled. Makes perfect sense though.
Part of the safe diving world. An empty tank could have debris sucked into it (dust/sand/spiders) to always leave it with 100 to 200 psi when stored. The dive store must know you to fill tanks. Back in my vintage days we filled our 72 cu/ft steel tanks at the fire station!
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Back years ago when I used to dive, tanks were filled in a container of water. Sometimes they were steel tubs or concrete or even just a plastic garbage can. I guess this was to keep them cooler as they filled and possibly offer some protection should something fail. Do dive stores/fill stations not do this any longer?
There is a widely held misconception that a water bath gives a better fill.
In fact, a water bath, originally used to lessen the impact of a tank explosion, does NOT help to give you a better fill.
If you feel the water temperature in a busy dive store, you'll find it is not cold water at all. In some cases it might become quite warm as you'd expect from having hot tanks dropped into it repeatedly.
Plus, the water bath has been discovered as the source for other problems related to tank safety.
Modern dive stores do NOT use a water bath.
You can read more about this here: www.psicylinders.com/inspectors/library/19-filling-cylinders-in-water-time-to-review
The only way to get a proper, meaning good, fill is to take the necessary time to do so.
Generally it takes at least 30 minutes to properly fill a tank. I know it can be filled in a couple of minutes. In fact it could be filled in just seconds but dive stores arbitrarily fill a tank slowly simply to please customers.
A tank must NOT be filled beyond its stamped pressure. I don't care what some tekkies will say about overfilling. It's wrong, may be illegal and certainly shortens tank life. How much it shortens your tank life no one knows until the tank tells you!!
Thus to fill a tank properly to its capacity, it must be filled slowly to the stamped pressure, then allowed to cool to room temperature (or close) and then refilled to stamped pressure. If you can get the dive store to do this process twice, you'll have a good fill, will not have harmed your tank and it was done safely too
Hope this helps.
Alec
Alec Peirce Scuba Well, I learned something from this. Thanks.
Lmfao my dive store knew my name from the first time I walked in and never forgot it ! But later my dive instructor told me that’s cuz I’m the ONLY guy whose come Into the shop to get certified that’s covered in tattoos from the neck down
Ha I guess that makes you easy to recognize! Like Kevin is hard to forget, although I do try sometimes. Thanks for sharing and safe diving my tattooed friend.
Alec, you missed the most important part from a customer view IMO - showing what shop should do instead: what is a reasonable time it should take to fill a tank (slower is better) so should you come back instead (inconvenient), filling just 1 tank on a fast compressor vs a bunch, and do you take risk of failing hydro if you do a hot fills, vs maybe filling in a water cooling tank. Alu vs HP steel.
A local shop (I no longer use) would fill to just 3450psi (HP100) over a ~20min time, then hand me a hot tank which would drop to 3200 at home instead of telling me to leave it and maybe top it off later (ideal case). By the time I hit the 52deg water, it would be 3100! not a good fill IMO. Other shops tend to hot fill to maybe 3700-3800 which would quickly drop to
I guarantee that the temperature in the dive shop "cold" water tank is not nearly so cold as the water in Monterey!
There is a widely held misconception that a water bath gives a better fill.
In fact, a water bath, originally used to lessen the impact of a tank explosion, does NOT help to give you a better fill.
If you feel the water temperature in a busy dive store, you'll find it is not cold water at all. In some cases it might become quite warm as you'd expect from having hot tanks dropped into it repeatedly.
Plus, the water bath has been discovered as the source for other problems related to tank safety.
Modern dive stores do NOT use a water bath.
You can read more about this here: www.psicylinders.com/inspectors/library/19-filling-cylinders-in-water-time-to-review
The only way to get a proper, meaning good, fill is to take the necessary time to do so.
Generally it takes at least 30 minutes to properly fill a tank. I know it can be filled in a couple of minutes. In fact it could be filled in just seconds but dive stores arbitrarily fill a tank slowly simply to please customers.
A tank must NOT be filled beyond its stamped pressure. I don't care what some tekkies will say about overfilling. It's wrong, may be illegal and certainly shortens tank life. How much it shortens your tank life no one knows until the tank tells you!!
Thus to fill a tank properly to its capacity, it must be filled slowly to the stamped pressure, then allowed to cool to room temperature (or close) and then refilled to stamped pressure. If you can get the dive store to do this process twice, you'll have a good fill, will not have harmed your tank and it was done safely too
Hope this helps.
Alec
Alec,
Recently had 4 hp 100’s filled with air, no special mix. The air smells like off gassing plastic. Could this smell be from new hoses? Took a cylinder to the local fire dept and they said no way would they breathe this air for any amount of time. This is not a good situation.
Not heard of new hoses ever giving off bad smells. My experience has been bad smelling air is from the filling station. Could be one or more causes but ask the store that filled them to see their latest air testing certificate. Take one tank back to get their feedback. Finally, if it does smell bad, don't dive them, empty and refill. The $10 a tank is cheap compared to a hospital visit.
Hi alec, after my last tank fill the steel got really hot. I got a bit worried about it is this a concern?
Every tank gets hot when filled but, if it's so hot that you can't comfortably hold your hand on it, tell the store to slow down!
Excessive heat from fast fills is not a big concern for steel tanks although you will lose a lot of pressure as it cools. With aluminum tanks, too much heat can shorten the life of the tank. And you lose even more pressure as an aluminum tank cools!
A good fill from almost empty will take at least 30 minutes - slow fill, cool down and top up.
Alec
I see you have 3 large tanks against the wall behind your left shoulder. What is in those tanks and what are they for if you don’t mind me asking?
They are oxygen tanks. The regular air bank cylinders, 30 of them, are in a separate room but these oxygen tanks are replaced regularly as they are used up so they have to be kept handy.
Alec
I bought a tank for paintball marker tank filling and it never got used for diving. 18 years later, the tank has barely been used. I'd like to get it tested and filled, but have no diver cert. Never did. Wlll I catch any flack at a dive store?
If a dive store know you only fill tanks for non-scuba activities, they may fill it after a visual and hydro test. However, some stores either never ask (fill anything for $$), or require a diver cert card first. When you show up, tell them what you want and why and will they fill it after passing all tests before agreeing to testing. Why pay for tests if they won't fill it. That's why I often mention having a relationship with your local dive store so they know you and want you to come back. Good luck Moe.
Alic...... I have been wondering... is there a small, electric continuous run HP compressor that could be used to fill a cascade system? Something like a refrigerator compressor? That can run for days? This would be a cheap home fill system.
Several companies sell small, electric compressors. They generally cost about $4000 although there are some Made in China models for 1/2 that amount if you don't care about warrantees or service. These are usually low capacity (3.5cfm (cubic feet per minute)) and would need several hours to fill a single 450 cf cascade bottle.
The biggest hurdle you face is that these are consumer models and NOT rated for continuous service. Most can be run for only 2 hours with a 2 hour cooling-off period.
Large capacity compressors as used in a dive store, say 7cfm to 20cfm, are also electric but require a very large motor hard-wired to 240 volts, drawing upwards of 30 amps and costing $10,000 to $35,000.
Alec
and that's why a $5 refill at the shop seems like a pretty good deal even though air is free :) (machine, electricity, and filters are not)
5$...... I wish...... not in Canada. And 10$ in gas to go to the dive store and back.
what do they charge ? here it's usually $5-7 depending on if you have a card. Nitrox is $10-15 ($6 on boats).
Hi Alec, question... Should not tanks be filled in cold water if possible for safety reasons and expansion/heat build up.. I know most dive stores or dive clubs do not use this feature. But I have seen video from stores that poorly made or maintained tanks blow up.. Even though a regular 300 bar steel tank can have withstand up to 500-600 bar manufactory testing pressure, I would think any used tank is a potential "bomb"..
Check out some earlier comments Tom about the inadvisability of using water baths. It does NOT help with getting a better fill and may cause more problems.
With respect to an explosion, water does NOT help. You know that water does not compress so the force of any explosion that takes place underwater is carried FULL FORCE through the water to the container walls. Only the container will help contain the explosion. So plastic tubs are useless and metal garbage cans shred. Apparently the best is reinforced concrete and next is heavy plate steel. If the container is full of water, contrary to common sense, the explosive force is not reduced at all.
In fact, if you follow the physics, it's better if the container is empty. That way there is some slight reduction in the force of the explosion by the compression of the air in the container plus the particles have to travel to the walls and they may then bounce back and dissipate some energy.
The best is an empty reinforced concrete or heavy steel wall container at least 5' tall with an opening to allow the explosive force an exit and that opening facing upward so the explosion particles are directed into the ceiling rather than out into the room. Few dive stores have the resources to build such a container.
Alec
Again, thank you for your answer Alec, you are truly a pond of wisdom and I enjoy every minute of it :)
Neophyte here. There's no need to empty the remaining air in the tank? At 800psi remaining, it is still 23cu ft of air that will mix with the new one. It could also change the gas types ratios if the previous ones were not the same?
Ask away Jean. You never let a tank air fully out a tank so leaving the exist air or EAN is accepted as your adding the same quality of breathing air. No benefit to emptying then refilling other than taking longer to fill up.
A
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Thanks alex, Iimagined that onced hooked up at the charging station, there was a safe way to purge the previous air without letting any moisture in. What I take away is that the dive shop trusts the leftover is not toxic and can be mixed with the new air.
how do you deal with the tank getting hot while being filled? is there a way for cooling it or just let it get hot?
Let it heat naturally from the filling up to desired pressure. Let it rest for an hour then top up to just above the desired fill.
A
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter with steels locally we like filling whilst sitting in water as it gets you that extra 10/20 bar without having to let it sit at the whip for more time and no need to rest as our next dive might be waiting :)
Helps as well to give it a rinse from any saltwater from previous dive, though have to be careful whip/valve don't get wet.
how many minutes does it take from the time you open the valve to fill the tank?
Many factors affect the elapsed fill time (ie how long the customer waits). If all cascade tanks are full, no other fills and at a safe rate (not the 10 second 2,500 psi fill), plus some cooling time for the last top up, say from 20 to 45 minutes. Take the time to look around the store and ask to see what's new, any trips coming up, any social events/dives. Lots of ways to kill time in a dive shop.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter great! thank you.
The TH-cam channel Air Command Rockets uses scuba tanks to fill their high-pressure water rockets. Would a dive store fill the tank of a non-diver who uses the air for something else?
Checking or knowing the diver is a duty the fill station operator should do and is a law in some locations. So if a known diver wants tanks filled for non-diving activities, they can do it.
Is is just me or does he look, sound, have have the same mannerisms of John King? Even his jokes are the same style.
John King is a world class flight instructor who sells a series of videos for flight students.
That's a new one, don't know of John King but he must be super cool. Glad you like these and thanks for watching.
Why if the pressure is below a certain number it need recertification ?? thanks
There is no hard and fast rule about the lowest remaining pressure that constitutes a safe tank to fill.
The point is that an EMPTY tank must have a visual and that's simply because, if it's empty there is no way to be sure it's safe to fill. There could be dirt or water in it and that may have caused some corrosion. Proper procedure dictates that an empty tank must have a visual, even if it has a current visual sticker. This is common knowledge and should have been discussed in your dive class.
Dive stores set their own criteria as to what EMPTY means. Some say the tank must have at least 500 psi; some say 300 psi; some say 100 psi. Personally, if I open the valve and air comes out, it's good to go.
Never empty your tank - common knowledge.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
Didn't go into any of the equipment that fills the tank, or the setup and maintenance of the filling apparatus. I more interested in the compressor and how it works!
OK. We can do a compressor operation video.
Keep watching.
Alec
Please my coltri mch16 compressor is troubleshooting what could be the problem?
No idea but I don't trouble shoot equipment i'm not familiar with. Contact the manufacture or Google the problem to get help. Keep your air clean and safe.
when did Aluminum tanks start being used in the industry?
They started replacing steel 72 cu/ft tanks in the 1980's.
Can you do a video on mixed gas filling
Hi Full. Mixed gas is not something I do anymore or have access to the filling and testing gear. There are lots of speciality channels on this subject that may help you. I'm trying to educate the many divers, and dive stores, who have no idea what is required to properly fill a scuba tank.
Thanks for watching.
Alec.
so what happened in the industry to require a VIP? also when you made the comment about if you are under 500 PSI you need another VIP, I call bullshit ATM is 14.9 so the pressure is over the ATM and does not need another VIP it seem like another way to leach money from the customer? and is there a difference between filling fast verses slow ? so on an aluminum 80 if you jack it up to 3300PSI when it cools down to room temp. it will be 3000Psi right? cause 3000 PSI is working pressure? right? i have even seen dive stores put the tank in water to cool it as it fills, does that do any good?
Lots to cover Dean:
1. Early aluminium tanks suffered SLC damage so VIP was mandated
2. VIP does not make lots of money for dive stores. Its a service like any other with time, materials and skills
3. Fast filling from 500 to 3,000 in 5 min. Normal is 15 to 20 min.
4. 3,300 does not normally cool to 3,000, typical its 3,150 before cooling effect depending on the size of tank
5, Water baths used to be standard but the physics showed water baths had minimal effect on tank cooling.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I apologize for off loading 20 questions but as i was typing more questions floated to the top and if i did not ask now they would be lost for ever
In the old days they put tank in water to keep it cool, any value in that?
It was proven to be of no real benefit and many have abandoned the practice. Basically the 'cooling' effect of water did not really cool the tank.
A
A cave diving fill station in France uses an actively refrigerated tank (kept at a few degrees above freezing) to cool down the cylinders during filling. They can fill about ten tanks at once to a proper fill level. No need to top off those tanks to get at least 210 bar. A room temperature water tank will have far less (if any) effect.
@@Yggdrasil42 As soon as those cylinders that have been just above freezing start to warm up it’s very possible that the pressure in the cylinder may go above the pressure rating of the cylinder which is dangerous. A lot of people used to think water would also protect people if the cylinder were to explode. That’s not true either as if a cylinder were to explode while in water there would be a very loud noise and a lot of damage, and the water would be turned into a fine mist. I found this video informative but there’s a lot more to filling cylinders than what was said. For example; how fast should you fill a cylinder? I also disagree with the idea of getting a visual inspection when your cylinder gets below 800 psi. Most students are taught to access the water with no less than 500 psi, remaining that they should exit the water when they have 500 psi remaining.
@@TheGweedMan Well, but they don't leave it in there. It's a high throughput fill station. No time to wait for cylinders to cool and top them off. Instead, the combination of refrigeration and adiabatic heating from filling means the cylinder comes out of the water tank straight after filling at about room temperature, so it shouldn't expand much if at all. Cylinders have plenty of reserve so even a 10 bar increase wouldn't come close to the max pressure. The fill tank is also sunk completely into the floor, with cylinders lowered in by winch, which should help if a tank ever burst.
Agreed that 800 psi is a bit weird. Maybe 10 bar/150 psi is more reasonable? In any case you shouldn't let a cylinder become empty because water and contaminants may get in and the valve may become loose.
If someone wants to learn the details, a gas blender course is a better source than a TH-cam video anyway. ;)
The only thing I dont see as neccesary (unless your weary of explaining things) is misleading the customer as to the process . Unless of course you are educating them as to what may be done and for what reasons with this vid. Thank you for your candor.
Its done to protect the client and keep them out of the fill area for safety reasons. A distracted filler is not a good thing.
Alec
dear alec thanks for another interesting video. i have my privet compressor to fill my tanks. somtimes i inhale my tanks till the end. never had a drope inside them. you mentioned that below 100psi in the tank a vip inspection needed. 100psi is the pressure in depth of 70m 230feet approximately. do u believe that someone completely inhaled his tank and then went deepper then 230feet in order to make pressure in his thank lower then the water pressure so water came in?
lets assume diver finished his air at safety stop at 3 meters deep. he cannot inhale anymore. if his balanced regulator is in perfect shape theoretically he can bring his tank to be in the same pressure as in 3meters. 5psi! how can water penetrate the tank? only if he then deepend to 100feet with that emptey tank?
if fill station opens the valve for blowing dirt or a drop of water still air will go out and not in.
and if tank is zero psi completely empty and operator blows the valve and ambient pressure is slightly higher then tank pressure and a liter of air from the humid store will enter the tank how can it possibly bring any harmful amount of water into the tank? any way wen vip inspection is made the tank is getting full of room(humid) air. if vale will be forgotten open when temp dropes at night, air will enter and when its hot air will exit and water might acumulate after days. personally think that if zero psi tank valve is not forgotten open then its safe from any humid entering.
and one last thing, i belive the only way for humid in a tank to evaporate and get out of the tank is by breathing the tank until its almost zero psi.
when did mike nelson start using Aluminum tank?
Mike used steel tanks, mostly twin 35's and 72's. Fun fact when you see Mike running with his twins on land, they were wooded props painted like steel tanks.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter that's good to know cause i thought he was a super bad ass!!!!!
Perhaps these things could be clearly comunicated by a required posting and signature of understanding in a certified shop.
Most dive shops have dozens of signs customers (and sometimes staff) ignore so I go with the direct verbal approach to get them shopping while filling.
It seems like a straight forward process but he is right people do stupid things and a reminder how to do it right once in awhile should be mandatory trainging for scuba technicians that work can litterly kill people if done wrong
Very true.
A
Good video, however using tape creates more thrash. Better get a tank cap.
We all want to reduce waste but the tape is a primary indicator of a newly filled tank. The dust cap is not enough as it can be pulled off thinking a tank is empty. The amount of tape is 3" per tank and new tape is biodegradable too. Thanks for your concerns.
Alec do you put your tanks in water when filling to keep them cool ? Thus a better fill.
Nope!
You don't get a better fill and you may damage your tank.
Water baths for tanks are from the 60's. We've learned a lot since then.
See some of the other comments for more details.
Take care.
Alec
What if you use the hookah system
I have used a hookah quite a bit years ago. One thing we did was have a scuba tank hooked into the system so that if the compressor or primary air source to the hookah hose failed, we could instantly go to the extra tank. If you're using a compressor for air to your hookah, it's even more important because if the compressor stops, your air supply stops too.
Alec
I feel like I am watching 70 show.
Hey, I was there man. Groovy times.
I ABSOLUTELY hate it when people skirt around the edges. If you want to check my tank, ask me, "When did it get hydro tested?", "Can I see your PADI certification?", "Going to fill your tank, can you please step away and out of the area for safety."
Those are perfectly good things to say to me and any diver should be glad a dive shop is asking those question to ensure your equipment will not malfunction. I dislike the BS but that is just me.
Many folks avoid all confrontation even if done politely and for a real safety reason. If a LDS asks these questions then they care about you and themselves. Appreciate the feedback Alamaric.
Lol .. tryna play it smooth . ripping the tape off. Lol
Yeah. You noticed that.
The tape is usually on a roll dispenser with a tear-off cutter but they just painted the walls and it wasn't re-installed yet.
Oh well.
Take care.
Alec
Why no mention of putting a cap on the tank when full, leaving it off when not full. That is far more common than tape.
Tank Tape is a visual indication the tank is full by the filler. When handing it to the customer they know its full because it has the store's branded tape on it. Just putting the dust cap on is not the best indicator a tank is full, it may have been on when it came into the store for filling, or put on by accident. After handing it over to the customer, you can ask if they want the dust cap on (some times it also reminds the diver to put in on). Also once the tank is full and taped, it is very easy to find it in a sea of empties. Sorry for being so long but home this helps. Next time your in a dive shop ask them why they tape it, if they don't know, you could tell them, ha.
Thanks for watching.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I don't like that the tape ends up in the dive environment.
I don’t normally comment but I’d like to point out.
If I pay full price, I want a full tank.
Too many shops under fill
What I hear is shops fill to say 3,000 psi "hot", not allowing for cooling to room temp just to get the tank out the door. If it's really short, say 2,800 not, 2,998 psi, then bring it to the shops attention.
A
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter This was the first thing I thought of when I watched the video. I used to go to a local store that would always think that 2700 or so was good enough. I would bring it up with them every time I had a fill and always got a little push-back but I insisted on getting a complete fill. I have pretty much stopped going there.
Watch jaws thank u
Absolutely classic. Should be required watching.
Alec
whats the cost 3000psi cylinder filling
An air fill cost varies a great deal but roughly $10 per fill - cheap for an hour's excitement! Should be much higher.
That cost can be translated to any currency world wide and will be close.
Alec
In the Netherlands much cheaper, around 3,5 euro for a 12 liter tank. At my dive-club is a DIY station a fill cost then half of it. Lucky us :-)
Water tank fills are not mandatory because tank failures are incredibly rare. In Vancouver a freind who hydro's tanks for a living has had only one failure in 20 yrs and it was because he over filled the tank....... he forgot it was filling and went had a coffee. Oooops. A dive store immediately bought the tank from him and displays it in their store. Visual inspections are just a money grab by dive stores. If you are a keen diver...... join a group of freinds and buy an air compressor.
I obviously agree that water baths are (should) be a piece of scuba diving history. They have no place in a modern store.
But, I smile when I see you call visuals a 'money grab'. You clearly have no idea what's involved in performing a proper visual. I will have to do a video about that. They required by law, provide a very valuable service and are a pain in the a** for the dive store. I'd much rather NOT have to do visuals. I have more profitable ways to spend my time.
I suspect you also think that truck safety inspections are a money grab by mechanics!
Now to turn this around on you, if truckers made sure their brakes and wheels were in good condition, they'd not be subject to inspection and ... if scuba divers treated their tanks with the care they demand as a potentially dangerous piece of equipment, we'd not require visuals. The institution of visuals was a direct results of scuba tank disasters.
Most diver fatalities resulting from bad air or explosions have come from club compressors or 'group of diver' compressors.
Few are prepared to shoulder the purchase and on-going cost of maintaining a dive compressor. I'd guess that an air fill from a club or 'group of friends' would have to be about $20 per to cover such costs.
Even the smallest compressor (3.5CFM) costs about $5000 to install ($4000 purchase plus extras to set up). Annual costs would be about $1000 (oil, filters, air tests, etc). Averaged over 10 years that comes to $1500 per year which at $20 per is 75 fills.
So you need to find 75 divers prepared to pay $20 for a fill that takes at least 30 minutes - 1 tank at a time, in someone's basement or garage rather than $5 for a fill at a pro dive store that can fill a dozen tanks at once, open 7 days a week and conveniently located.
Tough sell.
And that folks is why there are fewer and fewer scuba compressors in private hands. It used to be common, in the 60's and 70's, but no more. Shall we talk about liability??
Alec
I love your vids, and thank you for sharing. Visuals are not required by law in Canada....... to fill HP air tanks, only hydro's. If it was a safty issue visuals would be required by law....... dive stores always say its the law and when confronted they back off and say its an industry standard...... Its a money grab. I will research the US laws.
downunderdiveshop.blogspot.com/2013/05/scuba-cylinders-and-title-49-of-code-of.html
It would be a money grab if they made a profit of it. It's not.
OMG.... You lie. Acording to Wikipedia there is NO law in USA that requires visual inspection of a scuba tank....
You are a lier.
5:25 is where he fills the tank
And lots of interesting points before and after.
Where is the LAW stating you have to be certified???
There is no law. You don't have to be certified to go scuba diving. But it would be stupid to go diving without training.
Here's the way it works.
1. we don't like government interference. The best way to avoid it is to avoid problems.
2. with scuba diving, the best way to avoid problems is to learn how to do it safely.
3. since there is no law, the scuba industry, which includes manufacturers, training agencies, dive stores and instructors, enforces a policy of required certification as a trained diver before allowing people to scuba dive.
So it's an industry-enforced law that you must be trained before you can dive. That law or rule is so respected that even divers themselves help to enforce it. Basically, your participation in scuba diving is restricted if not trained.
Technically, you can buy scuba gear and go diving if you want, trained or not. It's your life!
In practice, you may have trouble buying gear if not certified (except used or on the internet) and you may not be able to get air fills without certification and you sure won't get on a dive boat to do some good diving without it.
It's all for your safety and for our continued enjoyment of the sport without a bunch of restrictive "laws".
I hope this helps you settle the question about the LAW and about the wisdom of training.
BTW, it takes 1 weekend, 2 days, to get certified so there's really no excuse to not do it.
Take care.
Alec
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter This is so awesomely thought out! Imagine this for a moment, there is no law, but you can do it unless someone properly trains you. Imagine that was the case with drivers licenses (people here where i live have no clue how to properly drive).
Just get to the point mate
Soon!
November Ajax, just wow! #1> Brother-Diver Alec is "teaching," not just "doing." #2> "Hurried Syndrome" people like yourself - wouldn't trust diving SAFELY with you in a million years.
by your comment i'm guessing you have intentionally searched for "how to fill a tank" not to learn more things but because you didn't know u put a tube in the tank?
Jesus get to the point
Thanks for watching Kyle.
I also often find that U-Toob videos drag so I use the speed bar at the bottom to move it along.
Try that. It won't bother me at all.
Alec
Kyle, it's not your fault. You are likely from the instant gratification generation, and don't appreciate the cadence and subtleties of a well made video. If I were you, I'd just skip this channel altogether. I'll gladly take your place, and subscribe, so no one will even miss you! Problem solved for you, and for the rest of us.