Four things I really love about Preston and his approach. 1) his humility to look at a topic with a teachable spirit 2) his approach in evaluating each view against scripture regardless of his own personal preference/view 3) his conclusion that conditional immortality best fits scripture. 4) his graciousness to those who don't hold to the view that he has landed on. I commend you my brother for all of these things.
Good review. I know you're limited by time, but I would also add that contidtional immortality makes better sense of the cross. If, as ECT affirms, the wages of sin is being eternally tormented, then Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins on the cross because he was not tormented forever. If the wages of sin is death, as the Bible clearly states, then Jesus did in fact pay the penalty for our sins on the cross. Additionally, I believe that even Revelation 20:10 and John's vision of the Lake of Fire actually affirm annihilation when we properly interpret the symbolizism. After all, John specifically tells us that "the lake of fire is the seond death."
this has been the clincher for me for quite some time. If Jesus paid the penalty for my sin (which He absolutely did) then the penalty for sin cannot be eternal conscious punishment
@@davidmccolgan6972 calvanists would say that Jesus’s torture was Gods way of practically scaring believers into what his wrath might do to them. The cross was an image of what hell will be like for those who don’t accept Christ; only the pain experienced on the cross will be experienced forever. Clearly not in line with a Christ centered view of scripture, nor is it in line with the God described in 1 Corinthians and the sermon on the mound
@@davidmccolgan6972 Precisely he paid the death penalty....not the eternally separated from God forever penalty....Jesus finished the transgression of his people on Matthew 9:24 making an everlasting atonement for it....its why the holy of holies was rent in 2.
Scott keep in mind that it says, in Rev 20:10 "age of the ages." Not "eternal" or "forever and ever." This refers to the most preeminent age, just like "king of kings" and "lord of lords" means the most preeminent king and the most preeminent lord.
Huh, I actually think the opposite is true; I'm hesitant to accept this view because it diminishes the Cross. If your argument is based on a weak idea of the death and Resurrection I think that's more of a bug than a feature. I mean we tacitly accept that Christ died for everyone who will ever believe in Him and follow his Lordship so why would it paying for eternal damnation be a problem? Are you arguing that the sacrifice of Jesus is able to surely save an indefinite number of saints but is limited to preventing one-time death?
This is an excellent exposition of conditional immortality. I used to accept ECT but never really studied WHY I accepted that doctrine. When I did study it, the scriptures revealed to me an annihilation view and now I can confidently support the doctrine of annihilationism. It is so clear to me now. Thank you for the additional scripture verses presented here since I missed some of them in my own study but they all lead to the same conclusion.
Not so fast. Like the rich man in Luke 16:16-31, every Adventist who has ever died has found themselves in the same Hades *being tormented in this flame* wishing he could warn is brothers of what is coming for them in the future. Adventists never get it. If you are Adventist, JW or Atheist *It's going to happen to YOU TOO* *In Luke 16:19-31 Christ opened up to the Christian the unseen world of life after death* The Adventists do everything possible to convince the Christian that we should IGNORE what Christ made explicit. The Adventists, Atheists and cults do every thing they can to change the subject and the meaning of the Christ's explicit words! The Adventists PREACH the wicked should ignore the warnings of eternal torment! These very scriptures were intended to send stark terror in the hearts of the wicked that they would turn to Christ and righteousness. Yet, Ellen G. White the Adventist Church says to ignore them and do everything they can to force them to be meaningless to the wicked! Christ commanded His Church to preach these things, but the corrupt Sabbath keepers forbid it as they did in Acts 5. 1. The Adventists all teach *the undying worms are eating on a dead body* so that you can tell THE WICKED they won't feel any pain or torment. *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE WORMS EATING ON THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (Mark 9:48, Isaiah 66:22-24) 2. The Adventists teach the wicked that *the unquenchable fire, will be quenched in a few second so, THE WICKED won't feel any pain and have nothing to fear.* *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE FIRE BURNING THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (MT. 5:41-45) 3.The Adventists teach the WICKED the torment of the wicked in Hades is just a grave,* so you don't have to worry about being punished with torment like Christ Himself taught about the wicked rich man. *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE FLAMES BURING ON THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (LUKE 16:19-31) 4. The Adventists teach, *the soul CAN be killed when the body is killed,* so the WICKED don't have to worry about being punished after death as Christ taught. *Moreover, if the soul dies with the body, than other people COULD kill both the body and the soul in one act* Mt. 10:28 *says the soul CANNOT BE KILLED* 5. *The Adventist's are preparing the way for the Beast and the False Prophet* The Adventists teach *eternal punishment is annihilation,* so they won't fear eternal punishment and repent of their sins. You all make void the word of God by your traditions and lies. The Adventists have made *the threat of eternal punishment meaningless* which was intended to make the wicked repent lest they go to eternal punishment. Adventists make the threat of unquenchable fire meaningless, because you claim it only burns for seconds. *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT NEVER TO STOP TORTURING THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED* 6. *The Adventists have made the threat of unquenchable fire meaningless* which was intended to make the wicked repent lest they go to the unquenchable fire, now they do not repent and neither do you all. Adventists make the threat of the torment of the gnawing of undying worms meaningless, because you claim, they only eat dead bodies that feel no pain!! Oh how the false prophet and the beast's love the gospel of annihilationism. They Adventists are preparing the way for the false prophet. Do you think for one moment the false prophet will promise the torment of the wicked if they are worshiped? Not for one second, they will tell everyone how there is no immortal soul and torment of the wicked at their death. 7. When Christ speaks explicitly and says the entire Old Testament ( *the law and the prophets* ) warn of the soul of the wicked being punished immediately after death, The Adventist say, IGNORE IT, IT'S JUST A "PARABLE" so that the WICKED will not repent and neither will the Adventists. 8. When Christ says, the rich man wanted to warn his five living brothers, "lets they come to this place of TORMENT", Adventist teach there is no torment in Hades, it's only a grave and a pile of dirt. The truth is that "HADES" is never the grave. 9. When Christ says, that they wouldn't believe even if the rich man came back from Hades and told them OF THE TORMENT IN HADES the Adventist Church says, men aren't alive in Hades. JUST IGNORE CHRIST AND HIS WARNING, hades is just a pile of dirt so that the WICKED ADVENTISTS WILL NOT REPENT exactly as the false prophet and the beast would have you believe! When, the opposite is true. 10. Here in Luke 16:19-31 *Christ opens the people's eyes unto the unseen world immediately after death and the Adventist despise Him for it!* Here Christ warns them what will happened to them if they refuse to repent, and the Adventist despise and blaspheme Christ for doing so. Christ let's every man know what happened to all the wicked in Noah's time, and to those in Sodom and Gomorrah and all the wicked down through the ages including false teachers and doers of evil and the Adventist despise Christ for it rather than repent of their sins. God is immortal and when God created man, he said, "let us make Man in OUR image" and then He breathed in to man and made him A LIVING SOUL. God is immortal and so He made man in His image. You all can't get the simplest things correct. God did NOT breathe into the animals as He did man! *The Adventists have made the threat of unquenchable fire meaningless which was intended to make the wicked repent lest they go to the unquenchable fire,* now they do not repent and neither do you all. *Adventists make the threat of TORMENT IN HADES meaningless, because you claim it's only a dirt grave!* The Adventists have made the threat of the torment in Hades meaningless, now they do not repent and neither do you all. *Except you repent, you will deserve every thing you get!* 1. Revelation 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, *Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.* Revelation 19:2 *For true and righteous are his judgments:* for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. >
@@escanor790 Souls burn in Hades too, my friend. We Christians teach that there is an immortal soul and that the multitude of scriptures teach that the wicked souls of the dead are judged immediately after death and are sent to Hades to be "tormented in this flame" as Christ taught. But, you say, both us and the scripture are lying. Now, if you are wrong, and there is an immortal soul as Christ taught and said the entire Old Testament teaches, *then it would be right for Christ to send you to hell to be tormented for deceiving so many people and telling them there wasn't a hell when there is!* And, to make matters worse, you say that "eternal punishment" is not in duration, while Christ and the Apostles taught it is. So, if all that being so, it would be perfectly right for Christ to send you both to Hades to be tormented and to eternal unending punishment forever for deceiving so many people. So, then now let us hear you say, *"AMEN AND AMEN"* and that you fully understand the consequences of what you are doing and saying, though you have NO authority. if you are so sure that we are lying. Let us hear the *Amen and Amen* from you since you are so convinced.
You are so right, Cameron. People accept half of John 3: 16 but refuse to accept the other half. Go figure. ✴ _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not_ PERISH PERISH PERISH PERISH PERISH *[ be utterly destroyed ]* .... (John 3: 16, KJV)
It is important to consider how an author uses each word elsewhere and consider the particular context, rather than just interpreting it "literally." I don't think perishing in John 3:16 would have to be annihilation, particularly if we consider how John immediately contrasts it with eternal life (which isn't just literal everlasting life according to John 17). Eternal life in John is relational, and this word for perishing is also used to describe people being lost (or, rather, that Jesus did NOT LOSE any whom the Father gave him). I think one could make a case that the destruction/perishing in John 3:16 is also understood in terms of the loss of relationship with God, not as the annihilation of their soul. Also, consider how the beast in Revelation 17:8 was going to destruction (same word), which in Revelation 20:10 is described as being tormented day and night forever and ever. Destruction/Death doesn't have to mean the literal ending of their existence.
Question: if the penalty for sin is eternal death, and Christ paid the price for our sin, was Christ eternally destroyed? A similar question could be asked regarding eternal torment.
@@IsaacNussbaum But keep this in mind: the word translated "lost" in Luke 15 is from the same word, "apollumi" - there the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost (prodigal) son are not beyond recovery. "Who then can be saved?! With God all things are possible!" Jesus said, "Destroy this temple - and in three days I will raise it again..." Jesus is the last "Word" on everything ❤🩹
@@MrHwaynefair *"Jesus is the last "Word" on everything"* I agree. And here is an example of His words. ✴ _Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see_ [eternal] _life,_ (John 3: 36a; ESV)
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Fantastic to see EVANGELICAL pastors looking HONESTLY AT THE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR ANNIHILATION! Came to this view 30 years ago after it was brought to our attention by our pastor. It made immediate sense when we saw the overwhelming evidence in the scriptures. It also makes sense historically when we see the Roman Catholic Church using the concept of an eternal burning hell to keep their adherents in fear and bondage to their church. It is just so obvious once you see the truth!
That is exactly right! I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, including 8 years of parochial school (they did use it as rosemerry said); I came to faith at 20; and in my thirties came to see this view, because I studied Paul and also read Fudge's "The Fire that Consumes." See also Chapter 20 of my book "The Grace of Christ, Third Edition" (Wipf and Stock).
Mathew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
There is to be a new creation. A new heaven and earth. Basically a new universe. So if all that currently exists is going to pass away how can there be eternal judgement?
@@jdlyonsky Hell is a misleading translation for Hades. I suppose people can consider this verse as an indication that the lake of fire eliminates (annihilates) the things/people put in it. I wonder, though, if such a view reckons adequately enough with the way that Hades/Death are personified and treated as a cosmic power/force in Scripture. It isn't merely a matter of death and the place of dead ceasing to exist but that they, like the devil and beast, can no longer afflict the people of God.
@@jdlyonsky How would new creation preclude eternal judgment any more than it would preclude eternal life? If I'm going to continue to exist despite the dissolution of the current creation, why couldn't those who would experience torment?
5:50 Preston just confessed the level of actual knowledge of most Seminary teachers (and arguably all who have typically a smaller amount of theological study). They haven't done their own deep dive into some core topics, rather they simply assume their tradition is right.
So we can try and interpret Revelations/dreams/visions, or we can look at what God actually said (Ezekiel 18:32, 18:23, 33:11). Some other good verses for annihilation are James 5:20, Romans 6:23, and John 3:16.
Another interesting thought on Rev 20:14 is that the Greek word used there is "Hades" which is synonymous with "Sheol" in the Old Testament. Sheol and Hades are never associated with the final punishment in the Bible.
@@rosemerrynmcmillan1611 No. That is one interpretation of Sheol/Hades. Sheol and Hades makes no sense to refer to the grave considering ancient thought concerning the two. Hades/Sheol is the holding place of the dead. It is not a place solely for the wicked but has a place of paradise and a place of suffering. You can see Jesus even speak of this in Luke 16 with the rich man and Lazarus.
I lean towards Revelation 20:10 as being symbolic language, however, if I am talking to a traditionalist, I would concede that verse. But I believe it's only referring to the beast, false prophet, and the devil. This phrase is not used again. Everything used after the final judgement can be understood differently. And is called the 2nd death.
@@maceawilder I am glad to find someone else who teaches this. It is frustrating that just about everyone who teaches annihilation says that Luke 16 is not literal. Even if it's a parable, it would be the only one not explaining real situations if that's the case! I have never heard anyone claim that wheat and tares don't exist because it's just a parable! You also hit the money on the head about Paradise. Jesus told the thief on the cross he would see him in paradise today! I think the logical conclusion is that this is the same place as Abraham's bosom in Luke 16.
Thank you so much, Preston. I’m not certain what I believe quite yet. But I love your heart and earnest study. Grace and truth, like Jesus. God bless you.
Just recently did a study on these different doctrines for the first time as an adult. This video does well at high-lighting and covering all of the great points and evidence for the Annialationist stand point, while also giving credence to the other viewpoints. So refreshing to see another within the body, who does well at putting away their presuppositions and preconceived ideas, when interpreting scripture through God's lens, and not our own skewed lens. The only thing I would humbly add to this study, is to also approach scripture with your best understanding of not just the Word, but also of our Creator's character and personality, as shown by His Word. This has helped me to find clarity in areas, where just approaching it from a scripture study, shed light on some questions or inquiries I may have. Obviously discernment is key in our entirety of knowing Him and His ways, but thought I would share.
This is really good, Preston. I'm glad that you're putting this out. All the specifics and substance vs. strawmen is really helpful to people who want to legitimately engage this topic and what the Bible and/or Tradition (depending on your view of that distinction :)) say. "Seek to understand before you seek to refute." Amen
nice work I'm truly on the fence leaning towards annilation aswell. love videos like these to make us dig deeper in scripture. I must admit Chris Dates arguement on annilation inspired me to dig deeper now this video set it over the top... Praise God well done brother
Thanks a lot brother Preston for putting forth a great Bible-based argument for conditional immortality!!! I find immensely helpful to know this position isn't some kind of outlier, having no basis in Scripture. On the contrary, it is heavily rooted and grounded in the Word. In my opinion, it best describes the character of Jesus Christ: his goodness and severity! Your love & reverence for the Word & your respectful attitude for the position you disagree with is such a good way to communicate your thoughts!!! God bless you richly!!!
Great talk, thank you, Preston. Over the last two years or so, I have also changed my view from ECT to annihilationism. I totally agree with the four assumptions you stated around the 10 minute mark. We've always got to go back to the Word. It's funny, because I started listening to Chris Date's stuff and the first interview I heard with you was at a time when you were still undecided about this. Afterwards, I read Erasing Hell. Eventually, I got to the interview where you had landed on annihilationism, and I was nearly there myself.
Wow great take on all these verses. I used to be ECT but am now more convinced that conditional immortality has more evidence from scripture. It’s been a few years journey and I’ve landed here.
@@to6955 Compared to ECT that is. Its universes ahead. The guy believes in universalism. Which we all wouldve liked, but its just not what the scripture teaches. God wanted to display his wrath so the saved people by Grace which are no better than the rest can glorify him in his Mercy towards them.
I am a filipino. I understand simple english. Death means no more life, ceased from living Destroy means annihilated, permanently broken, of no use and can not be fixed anymore.
I think the roots of ECT may have come from trying to get as many converts as possible into the seats, combining that with tithing = lots of extra money. The people who love God will be there and stay there (church), as it’s where they want to be out of love anyway, but fear is a strong motivator for more people. I’m not saying there is no fear of the Lord which is appropriate, or even that annhilation isn’t fear inducing, just not as much. More fear = more money. Simple formula.
Eternal torment actually begin with the greek philosophers, primarily Plato, they argued we all have an immortal soul, therefore the wicked burn forever, scripture tells us that we are mortals not inherently immortal, we get immortality through Jesus. I believe as time went on the belief of eternal torment slipped into Christianity and eventually when the Catholics had major power and control they used it as a fear tactic, the Catholics actually claimed it was a heresy to claim that the punishment of the wicked was anything other than eternal torment. So not only were people thinking about being eternally tormented if they don't tithe enough, they also believed they might fall under that eternal torment if they claimed it was actually annihilation. To be honest when people claim we have an immortal soul I almost consider that heresy because it equates man on the level of God, now one could argue, although not Biblically, that God allows man to be immortal, he decides not to destroy, but God most certainlly could annihilate.
Look at the story of the Prodigal Son. That tells it all. A person will suffer from consequences if they are negative. When a person changes their beliefs and behavior that is more loving, then they have come home to the father. That is all you need to know.
@@MP-sy4zc Consider Jonah - it can be argued he died and repented *after* dying - then returned to life. If God IS Love - and the One for whom NOTHING is impossible - then this seems to be an open possibility - for, "all things are possible with God" ❤
Yes Sodom and Gommorrah are not burning today and those cities are given as an example of what eternal fire is,it's sad but when you ask a Christian are those cities burning today every single time I've asked they completely avoid giving an answer,and they try to bring up other scriptures ,they avoid the question entirely from my experience
Of course the city is gone, as are the bodies of the billions of people that have died are gone. But their souls are not gone. The body is separate from the soul, and Matthew 10:28 tells us, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
@@Mynameisjoof a soul doesn't exist without a body.Genesis says that man became a living soul. Whenever the Bible makes reference to a soul it's talking about a living breathing creature a nephesh, not some disembodied entity. And you're wrong souls die according to the Bible
Jude 7 references Sodom and Gomorrah as examples of those what suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Seems like they are an example of instant destruction. If people suggest it's what is happening to them after death, it's the same for them as anyone else in the torment framework, so they don't serve as a particular example of anything.
Eternal conscious torment, a fiery funace, darkness, screams of pain, souls divided by chasms in the underworld--they are not found in the OT, but they are found in the intertestament books like 1 Enoch and Judith, up to 100 years before Christ. When Christ spoke of Gehenna/Hades (translated poorly as "hell"). he was speaking to Jews who could relate to that symbolic language. Revelation was written to Jews using the same symbolic language. Paul , writing to mostly non-Jews never mentioned Hades/Gehenna. He said the wages of sin is death.
Enoch was wrote after Christ most scholars agree. It's psudopigripha. Enoch also died book of Hebrews shows . He latter died. He didn't see death when opposers sought his life because of his preaching..
I'd dispute the statement that Revelation was written to Jews. Sure, there were doubtlessly Jews in the churches that John wrote to, but there were also plenty of Gentiles. Paul's letter to the Ephesians testifies to the mixed community present even decades before Revelation. Moreover, the frequent mentions of sexual immorality and food sacrificed to idols in Revelation 2-3 are more likely to issues with Gentile Christians than for Jewish Christians.
The Bible also says that the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. Angels are eternal beings not of flesh and blood, they cannot die. Humans were not eternal until Jesus gave us the gift of eternal life through him. So those thrown into the lake of fire didn’t receive this precious gift and were destroyed which was the second death… Paul even says the wages of sin is death not eternal hell fire.
Good list supporting annihilation. I agree. But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psalm 37:20) Also check out the seventh day Adventist church doctrine regarding the state of the dead, conditional immortality, judgement(annihilation) for the wicked. Just because the eternal torment view is widely accepted, doesn't make it the correct interpretation. Does that sound compatible with the merciful loving God of the Bible?
Who are the wicked exactly? I can't see that the young woman {in the remote jungles somewhere} that dies in childbirth, and didn't say "the magic prayer", would count as evil. ?? {Just thinking out loud} Any thoughts? And what about people being saved post mortem? Is that a possibility?
@@Butterfly777jc And what about the ancient aborigines of Australia - or the ancient pygmies of Papua New Guinea - or the ancient blacks of Central Africa - or the ancient red Indians of North America - ALL OF WHOM lived thousands of years before Jesus and never even heard the name of Jesus?
It's not that complicated. If you gather all Bible passages regarding the ultimate fate of the wicked, and make sure you understand them in their contexts, you will end up with a very very short list in support of eternal life in 'hell' (Gehenna / lake of fire) and a very long list of passages in support of death (unconscious) as the wages of sin, even reduction to smoke and ashes (annihilation)
This makes so much sense. I never knew about the annihilation interpretation before and always struggled how people could be left to suffer for eternity. Both are terrible, but annihilation seems more compassionate. Who am I to even have a clue about such things?
The future of debate in regards to the nature of the afterlife is definitely between annihilation and universal reconciliation. I am personally a universalist but I do see where annihilationists are coming from.
@weezy894, well, you know what? Universalism is definitely No good at all and you said you are a Universalist and you think 🤔 that there's Annihilation? And what does the Bible say about that? And where in the Bible does it say anything about annihilation? And u believe it doesn't teach that because There is no such thing as annihilation. And being a Universalist will send you to eternal Lake of Fire of hell and it is eternal and yes it is forever according to the book of Revelations so if you want to believe in a lie then go right ahead and you will regret it and believe in universalism is a one way ticket to send you to hell so you might want to rethink that and read Revelations because you going by your own beliefs but you are not going by what the Bible says.
Really appreciate this calm and thoughtful presentation of the conditionalist perspective. It's crazy how many people simply believe in ECT because its traditional, or because they think that's the only option.
I've been back & forth with this for years now as well, & found myself in the middle between ETC, & annihilationism. We were doing bible study recently, & read Mark 9, & off I go again. I agree with you that Rev 14; is the hardest, but I noticed that it was the only place in scripture that talks about people in that sense, and even there, it's only the people that take the mark of beast, which really further limits that. I know it's the waiting period, but I also have a tough time with Luke 16, simply because it shows Jesus himself talking about someone, dead, who's in a lot of suffering, for although not eternity, seemingly quite along time & that in the torment of flames. On the other hand I also struggle with the idea, that when dead, we're not immediately in the presence of the Lord, which some conditional mortality individuals, support. Each time I seem to get closer to just believing the annihilationism view, & it's amazing the peace it gives. I think that perhaps the ETC, brought a lot of us to Christ, in the beginning, but think perhaps, it's chased as many away, because it just seems so insensible, harsh, & inappropriate. After all as Abraham said, shall not the judge of all the earth do right. It just seems to makes so much more sense for the wages of sin to be death, & worms to eat corpses, & God to destroy the wicked with dreadful capital punishment, then for Him to torcher people for trillions of years, & still not destroy them.
Any god that has to scare people into worship isn't worthy of worship. ECT isn't backed by Scripture at all. Literally every verse supports Conditional Immortality and the few verses ppl think supports Eternal Conscious Torment actually do not.
I FIND THIS TOPIC OF GREAT INTEREST MY BROTHER. I am also, leaning towards annihilation for 2 reasons. One , many bible passages suggest " cease to exist", like perish in John 3:16. 2nd reason is the very nature of God and His mercy.
To hold to ECT you have to take the poetic apocalyptic language of revelation literal and the entire rest of the Bible describing the fate of the unsaved "death" "destruction" "you will look for them but will not find them" "burned up" as figurative. ECT is not reconcilable, morally, Biblically, logically, its actually below universal reconciliation in terms of possibility.
Yes I agree, it's the reverse of good biblical understanding. Romans is literal doctrine for example and Revelation is symbolic imagery. Which draws heavily upon the OT.
I honestly hope Revelation 14 is talking about the final judgement because it proves annihilation in my opinion, I think no rest is just imagery used in a book full of imagery connected to already a passage using imagery. The main reason you could believe that this verse in Rev 14 is talking about final judgement is because it says in the presence of the lamb and the angels, but even then it could just be talking about when Jesus returns before the millennial reign and judgement of the wicked. Rev 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” as you showed Isaiah 34:9-10 “Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day;Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.” Isaiah 34 gives a clear picture of utter annihilation, it even talks about unquenchable fire, the smoke that rises forever can't possibly be literal because today there is no smoke rising. Revelation 14 is using imagery found in the OT that gives an image of annihilation, this is almost exactly the same as the way Jesus uses worms that will not die.
Well said about the usage of those terms and imagery. Even unquencable fire, people think that means it goes on torturing forever, when in fact it just means that it can't be quenched or put out.
Listen to the first 3 minutes of his message here.....Conditional immortality a.k.a. annihilationism doesn't mean lack of punishment for the lost. Surely, as God is Wrathful as well as loving, those rejecting Christ will indeed suffer a time of terrible punishment, and only then will they realize it. The true meaning of the words eternal/everlasting and forever are still fuzzy to me, however I will say that the whole idea of the literalist view of ETC doesn't make sense to me in light of a God who is all knowing, all loving, and all powerful. Why He would have designed it this way from the beginning? According to ETC doctrine (and Matt ch 7:13-14), most of the world's population will be burning in hell forever. This sure is a terrible terrible final outcome from a God that is all knowing, all loving and all powerful! What makes it worse is that God has allowed Satan free reign to deceive people. Many people can't see the truth and some of them even want to, they just don't get it. For God to allow such endless terrible suffering for good hearted people who are just merely deceived and lost is beyond cruel to me and not at all indicative of an all knowing, loving and powerful God. A God of wrath - Yes! A God of cruelty - I sure hope not! And yes this is based much on human logic, but didn't God give us brains to use sound logic as well as wisdom from scripture? Secondly, if the level of earthly suffering that Jesus endured for us on the cross was enough to pay for all of the sins of man for all earthly time, then why does God have to forever (with never an end) torture those that missed Jesus? I don't see how anyone with any compassion or reason could be ok with this ETC doctrine, or how God could even expect us to be ok with it! "Eventual" annihilation makes the most logical sense to me (after a fair time of suffering). As far as backing any view up completely with scripture, I am exhausted!! You can find scriptural proof to support any of these doctrines!! Which one best fits God and His omnicient, omnipotent, and omnipresent character??
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. This verse is very interesting in the Greek Septuagint. For "burned" it uses the Greek word "kaio" meaning to burn. But for consumed it uses "katakaio" meaning to burn down or wholly consume. "Katakaio" comes from "kata" meaning down and "kaio" to burn. So the bush was burning but not burned down. 2545. καιὼ̀ kaio kah’-yo; apparently a primary verb; to set on fire, i.e. kindle or (by implication) consume: - burn, light. 2618. κατακαιὼ̀ katakaio kat-ak-ah’-ee-o; from 2596 and 2545; to burn down (to the ground), i.e. consume wholly: - burn (up, utterly). Thus if the wicked in hell are to burn forever they would be burned with fire but not consumed (kaio-ed but not katakaio-ed). So what does the Bible say? Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up (Strong's G2618) the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn (Strong's G2618) them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned (Strong's G2618) in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. So, unlike the burning bush, which was not burned up but was only on fire; only "kaio-ed", the unrepentant wicked will be wholly consumed by the fire when the world ends; they will be "katakaio-ed". This is what the Bible teaches. This is why is speaks of them, and even Satan, being turned to ashes. Ashes can't feel or think. There is no eternal torment: no wicked people will be like the bush and be on fire without being turned to ashes. However, there is a second death, which causes the cessation of existence forever.
I loved this talk and how it has made me start questioning the ECT theory, which is the only one I was ever taught growing up. I would say though that I think it would be beneficial to acknowledge the different types of death in the Bible, which proves the word "death" means separation. For instance, Adam and Eve's bodies or souls did not cease to exist the day of their fall, but they did die in the sense of separation from God. Eternal death could therefore be defined as eternal separation from God, which could occur in the lake of fire or through annihilation and neither would create a logical conflict.
That's a good point, but I would point out that the Hebrew of the verse mentions the Hebrew word for die twice, so would be better rendered "in dying you shall die". Although that reads strange in English. The idea being, the day he ate from the tree, he became mortal and eventually would die. So whilst, that did create a relational separation, I don't think that is the primary emphasis of what God was saying there, although I can see why many do think that. It's like saying once he commited the crime, his fate (death) was sealed.
With how long we have been reading the book of Revelation, were still scratching our heads over it. The symbolism is unreal. We might not fully understand it until it all comes to pass. Then we will say, oh! That's what the book of Revelation was talking about.
That's an honest assessment. As someone who has read it maybe 30-50 times and still aren't sure, it amazes me how those who haven't read it even once seem to "know" what it is talking about. You are real brother.
Revelation requires a working knowledge of the entire Bible and anyone who tells me they have a working knowledge of the entire Bible I instantly question. Test all things and holdfast to that which is good. That's why prophesy came from person to person because not one human could hold all the truths. I can give you some of the Bibles explanation on some symbols in Revelation I can, by no means, claim I know what every symbol means. So when it comes to things I am unsure of I make sure to make that known. I'll say things like the symbols to me seem to be expressing this, but your interpretation (as long as it falls in line of what is presented) can be just as valid. I will always have questions.
Instead of yelling “heretic!” at you my actual reaction was “yes, woo-hoa!” After heavily defending traditionalism for YEARS, I thoroughly investigated my heart by talking to the Lord and fellow- believers (including my spiritual leaders) AND by investigating the Scriptures, I’ve finally landed on Conditional immortality - though I don’t believe in total annihilation (in my view, people’s personality, all their good aspirations and hopes cease to exist and their self-consciousness as well, so what IS being tortured is what remains - the sinful nature abominable to God which only confirms a passage from Rev 14 where it says that people will be tortured before the Lamb forever and ever…) thank you for sharing that! 15:06
In regards to the verse in Rev 14 there is a very similar verse in Isaiah 34:9-10 where the smoke of their torment, kind of strangely to our ears, speaks about Edom's destruction. You could check out that reference if so inclined.
The testimony of the destruction goes up (that is the smoke). When a person is destroyed it is eternal. Being kept somehow to experience an ongoing experience.......it is unnecessary. God will ultimately destroy the soul in Hell/Gehenna. Just like Jesus taught. Remember in Revelation that Hell and death will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire/Gehenna.
What bible, version, translation are you talking about that we must hold as totally without errors. When they all say different things all the way through. The fist English translation, the Wycliffe Translation, has 122 hells in it. The next oldest, the King James Version, has only 54 hells in it, less than half of the original. The 6 most popular versions today only contain 13 uses of hell as in the NIV and the ESV. Which one of them is the one we must believe in? Which one is without errors?
I believe theres no way to completely destroy a soul maybe it doesnt exist in heaven or in gods eyes but it exists in hell its just it ceases to exist to believers.
@@chadpugh443 *"I believe theres (sic) no way to completely destroy a soul"* It appears that God knows a way, Chad. ✴ _'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna._ (Matthew 10: 28; YLT) (Gehenna is a valley south and west of Jerusalem.)
Another note to add to the three big passages is that there evidence to support that in Matthew 25 the Greek for our English word “eternal/everlasting” is “age-enduring”. And for the revelation passages, the Greek may be saying “the age of ages, or age to age”. Translations like YLT, Literal Standard Version, and Weymouth translate these passages in these ways.
Preston what about Daniel 12:2? Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Never really connected this vs out of Daniel with this conversation. Thanks, this is a really interesting topic. Definitely a topic we need to get right if we are telling people what judgment might look like.
@@Mrm1985100 maybe but I think that's doubtful. Daniel 12:2 (NLT): Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace. Doesn't seem to be written that way.
I think he covered this: the contempt can be everlasting without the need for the object of contempt to still exist. Someone who is currently alive can continue to hold their contempt for someone who is now dead.
@@davidmccolgan6972 I agree that is possible, however in context both awaken. The reason I even responded to the original comment was that it does seem to be a vs. which defends E.C.T. from the Old Testament.
The Adventists PREACH the wicked should ignore the warnings of eternal torment! These very scriptures were intended to send stark terror in the hearts of the wicked that they would turn to Christ and righteousness. Yet, Ellen G. White the Adventist Church says to ignore them and do everything they can to force them to be meaningless to the wicked! Christ commanded His Church to preach these things, but the corrupt Sabbath keepers forbid it as they did in Acts 5. 1. The Adventists all teach *the undying worms are eating on a dead body* so that you can tell THE WICKED they won't feel any pain or torment. *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE WORMS EATING ON THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (Mark 9:48, Isaiah 66:22-24) 2. The Adventists teach the wicked that *the unquenchable fire, will be quenched in a few second so, so THE WICKED won't feel any pain and have nothing to fear.* *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE FIRE BURNING THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (MT. 5:41-45) 3.The Adventists teach the WICKED *the torment of the wicked in Hades is just a grave,* so you don't have to worry about being punished with torment like Christ Himself taught about the wicked rich man. *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE FLAMES BURING ON THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (LUKE 16:19-31) 4. The Adventists teach, *the soul CAN be killed when the body is killed,* so the WICKED don't have to worry about being punished after death as Christ taught. *Moreover, if the soul dies with the body, than other people COULD kill both the body and the soul in one act* Mt. 10:28 *says the soul CANNOT BE KILLED* 5. *The Adventist's are preparing the way for the Beast and the False Prophet* The Adventists teach *eternal punishment is annihilation,* so they won't fear eternal punishment and repent of their sins. You all make void the word of God by your traditions and lies. The Adventists have made *the threat of eternal punishment meaningless* which was intended to make the wicked repent lest they go to eternal punishment. Adventists make the threat of unquenchable fire meaningless, because you claim it only burns for seconds. *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT NEVER TO STOP TORTURING THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED* 6. *The Adventists have made the threat of unquenchable fire meaningless* which was intended to make the wicked repent lest they go to the unquenchable fire, now they do not repent and neither do you all. Adventists make the threat of the torment of the gnawing of undying worms meaningless, because you claim, they only eat dead bodies that feel no pain!! Oh how the false prophet and the beast's love the gospel of annihilationism. They Adventists are preparing the way for the false prophet. Do you think for one moment the false prophet will promise the torment of the wicked if they are worshiped? Not for one second, they will tell everyone how there is no immortal soul and torment of the wicked at their death. 7. When Christ speaks explicitly and says the entire Old Testament ( *the law and the prophets* ) warn of the soul of the wicked being punished immediately after death, The Adventist say, IGNORE IT, IT'S JUST A "PARABLE" so that the WICKED will not repent and neither will the Adventists. 8. When Christ says, the rich man wanted to warn his five living brothers, "lets they come to this place of TORMENT", Adventist teach there is no torment in Hades, it's only a grave and a pile of dirt. The truth is that "HADES" is never the grave. 9. When Christ says, that they wouldn't believe even if the rich man came back from Hades and told them OF THE TORMENT IN HADES the Adventist Church says, men aren't alive in Hades. JUST IGNORE CHRIST AND HIS WARNING, hades is just a pile of dirt so that the WICKED ADVENTISTS WILL NOT REPENT exactly as the false prophet and the beast would have you believe! When, the opposite is true. 10. Here in Luke 16:19-31 *Christ opens the people's eyes unto the unseen world immediately after death and the Adventist despise Him for it!* Here Christ warns them what will happened to them if they refuse to repent, and the Adventist despise and blaspheme Christ for doing so. Christ let's every man know what happened to all the wicked in Noah's time, and to those in Sodom and Gomorrah and all the wicked down through the ages including false teachers and doers of evil and the Adventist despise Christ for it rather than repent of their sins.
Excellent, intellectually honest, humble presentation! I too have arrived at annihilation and now affirm it. Question, since man is a spirit, soul, and body (Rom 8:6). Do you believe the unconscious raw life force (spirit) of a person returns to God and only their body and mind are destroyed? Examples: Matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Just to clarify, Romans 8 is referring to how we orient the mind, whether by the flesh(in the sense Paul uses it to describe worldly living and sinfulness) or by the Spirit. So Paul's not really teaching a trifold metaphysics of humanity in the first place, at least not in Romans 8. So in Matthew 10 the body and soul are designating the fullness of a person; in other words the destruction of one bot not the other is partial, but the destruction of both(whether allegorical or literal) is the much greater concern. This doesn't really leave room for any 'return to God.' Honestly that sounds more like the notion of Samsara found in Eastern religions but I don't believe it's compatible with the Bible or Christian theism. Whether or not there is a 3 fold nature to humanity as opposed to strict dualism is still up for discussion; I'd say Jesus is justified in making a polemic statement about Body vs Spirit without precluding a metaphysical concept that doesn't relate to what he is teaching. Personally I'd say the mind is the realm of personal existence whereby the spirit and the body intersect but it doesn't have a distinct substance from the other two.
I would argue that romans 8:6 is a weak way of declaring mankind is Spirit, Soul, and Body as this verse declares mind within both cases. To be carnally minded and spiritually minded arent used to hint at us being a Spirit. I believe we are body, and soul. The Spirit part isn't ours. For example the Spiritual aspect is something external within us. Having the Spirit of the Lord within us granting life. In Genesis 6 my Spirit shall not always strive with man showing that when the Spirit of GOD is not with man his life span is decreased. Though if one believes we are also spiritual beings I have no way to say they are wrong. I simply don't see a reason to believe we are spiritual beings.. The extrapolation typically comes from being made in the image of GOD saying since GOD is a trinity so too are we, but that is also an assumption. Being created in the image of GOD, to me, doesn't speak directly being like GOD as much as it presents a uniqueness for mankind. I lean towards a soverign individual doctrine in that Who is like unto GOD? There is no GOD before GOD, and there is no GOD after GOD. This applies to us declaring a form of unique property. There will be no me before me, and there will be no me after me. I am a unique individual. The same is true of all of us. Though we are part of a body Paul makes it clear we are individual members as well. So while I don't believe we are spiritual beings I am not against those who do. I just believe it is more of an assumption than an actual fact is my point. (Edited because my auto correct did not capitalize GOD in two instances)
I first heard this view from Chris Date. Being raised on Eternal Consious Torment, I basically thought it was the only biblical view. But then I realized that only 1 chapter in the bible seems to indicate ECT. Revelation 20. A book full of symbolic language. Everywhere else says eternal life or death/perish.
I think it's interesting how the lake of fire is brimstone and fire just like in smelting gold and brimstone or sulfur dioxide is released making the gold pure. God does not cast people out forever. In Lamentations 3:31 it says “For the Lord does not cast off for all time”
Mark 9:42-48 Blows away any concept that denies the eternality of Hell. i.e. "where the fire is not quenched". That is a simple phrase repeated several times in scripture. It is REALLY doing an injustice to scripture to make those verses mean anything other than eternal. HUMAN REASONING twisting scripture to fit ones belief system is sad, untrue & damnable
*"Mark 9:42-48 Blows away any concept that denies the eternality of Hell."* You are wrong. Dead wrong. Woefully and completely wrong. A report of a house fire in my town said that the firemen could not put the fire out (they could not quench it). That fire stopped burning years ago.
It's a quote from Is 66 the last verses where worms and fire are consuming dead bodies... It really is an injustice not to cross reference. Jesus was quoting OT scripture. Check it out for yourself.
Rev14:9-11 the smoke of their torment goes up forever. I think this smoke is best described by Isa 66:24 where their destruction of aabhorance to all people. Or the smoke of their torment in rev is remembered forever by all people.
I was following until Revelations 20. How can the powers that be in Rome be tortured forever, if none of the individuals in power are tortured forever? WHO or what is being tortured? The devil behind it all? But he was already mentioned. And who is the false prophet?
Metaphors are also not perfect examples. They always have a flaw somewhere in the example. The point of a metaphor is not every single possible detail, but the overall message. It's like people using metaphors to explain the Trinity none of them get it 100% right, but the gist of it is there. Kinda reminds me of when Jesus told them you strain at a gnat and swallow a whole camel. Many people will focus on the flaw of the imperfect metaphor instead of what it is trying to portray.
I don't adhere to everything the SDA teach, but Annihilation has been taught for over 150 years. It brings peace to many knowing even those we love who never come to Jesus or refuse to, God's mercy in Judgment consumes them with fire, and there is, by their choice an Eternal separation from God. God's Love and Mercy is present in His Judgment.
Bro, there was this sermon on TH-cam that covers “Why the devil doesn’t just repent?” And I gave the answer in the comments and provided Romans 6:23, “The Wages of sin is death” and I talked about how the devil was originally a glorious angel second in command to God, but he became so full of himself to the point of sinning. Just as God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate the fruit, the Devil must’ve been told the same thing, and convincing Adam and Eve that death wasn’t real, was his way of paying God back. This lady tried telling me that “we don’t burn up”, and she gave me verses that in fact even contradicted her own words, such as “The lake of fire is the second death”. I gave her verse after verse after verse that point to destruction, and gave the original Hebrew and Greek words. It was so exhausting to try to get it through her thick skull, and she told me that I was gonna give an account for not understanding God’s Word. I tried to win the debate but I didn’t. In Revelation 20:10 where it says, “tormented day and night forever and ever” the literal translation is “for ages and ages”. Before the devil is burned up, he will suffer in proportion to all the bad things he has done, and he has done far more evil than a Roman numeral can express,
Some Christian believe God loves everyone and wants to save all of mankind. Sadly, they believe man's free will supercedes God's desire, therefore God is not all powerful. Other Christians believe God is all powerful, but not all loving. Christian Universalism posits God is all powerful and all loving. He wants all of mankind to come to repentance, nothing can thwart His will, therefore all of mankind will be restored. Some people believe Christian Universalism is heresy, but God being love and power are both orthodox positions. I find that whereas there is prima facie support for annihilation or eternal damnation, neither of these positions form a harmonious whole. Further, they mostly rely on parables, symbolim and hyperbole, whereas ultimate reconciliation is in plain language. For example, John the Baptist called Jesus the Savior of the World. John said he is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but the whole world. Luke states all flesh shall see God's salvation. Thats very specific. Paul says God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. These are just 4 instances. Which of these verses do I need to jettison or redefine in order to hang on to a false doctrine of annihilation or eternal torture?
There are lots of biblical verses to support annihilation. But what if these verses refer to physical death or destruction of the physical body. Rev 20 refers to Lake of fire as second death. It looks to me like the second death is eternal.
Good points. Another point on Rev. 14:9-11 : for those that want to take the passage totally literally, it only applies to anyone who "worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or hand". For most eternal-conscious-torment proponents, this would apply to only certain people at the end of the age. That is, they don't believe that anyone of the billions of people who have already lived have literally worshipped the beast or received a mark on their head or hand. So, if you want to think that eternal-conscious torment is what Rev. 14:9-11 is teaching, it applies only to some people in the future. What Preston has called the strongest passage for ECT, ends up being very weak. The passage means something different than what ECT proponents think.
If ETC is the correct view why don't we see it in the OT? It's so foundational if it's true and God should have presented it to Adam in the garden. But God told them they would die, not be eternally tormented for sinning.
And you're correct they did die according to the Bible, the idea of the immortality of the soul is not biblical comes from paganism and it's really sad that most religious leaders and churches are repeating the LIE of the devil"thou shalt not surely die"
Isaiah 5 :13 says therefore my people are gone into captivity, and 5:25 says therefore the anger of the Lord is kindled against my people,I think this is talking about when Jerusalem were taken into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar, it’s not saying God is angry at the Saints, the bodies were literally lying in the streets after Nebuchadnezzar burned Jerusalem, Isaiah 1:1 says this chapter is about Judah and Jerusalem in the days of uzziah and other kings, I don’t think Isaiah 1:27-31 is talking about hell either, it’s about Jerusalem ,I think each verse should be read in context and the whole chapter read
I like your humble attitude about this difficult topic. I personally rule out ECT because it has insufficient biblical evidence AND it brings in the issue of the character of God as a torturer. God tells us to live our enemies but he ultimately not only refuses to do so but He exacts the most horrific retribution to a degree we cannot begin to fathom. Conditional Immortality has much more going for it biblically but it also compromises God's character. In both views billions of people are either tortured or destroyed, probably more than n are saved. Does God annihilate those who ate made in His image? Don't we all have at least some vestige of God's image remaining despite sins marring in our lives? For me I believe in the gospel as GOOD NEWS not dreadful news or decidedly dodgy news. You didn't mention much about universal reconciliation, nor did you mention the views of hell in Eastern Chriistianity. What about " Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." The only way God can receive glory due is if we all WILLINGLY confess Jesus' Lordship not with our arms twisted behind our backs. The totality of scripture has reconciliation and restoration as it's principle. God's love does win and just as in the parable of the Lost Sheep brings it home to bring all into the shepherd's purview. For God, success is 100% nothing less. I am not saying the Lake of Fire is not real but that it is the Fire of God's love consuming the stubble of our false selves, purifying us in order to fully reconcile each one. Just like the Prodigal Son, we will all come home, I believe.
What if it's all three? I don't know if you've ever poked around the book of enoch, and I'm not sure how much stock I place in it because I've only briefly read through it, but I do remember it describing three categories of unsaved people that go to sheol, and describes all three positions of conscious torment, annihilationism, and universalism
I don't think the nature of hell can be fully understood without distinguishing between the old and the new creation in us and treating them separately. Do we hear what Paul says, when he writes e.g. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"? What if hell is simply the unavoidable annihilation of everything in us - all of us - that is not "born from above"?
Rev 21:4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” I imagine the destruction of the soul being somewhat akin to that person having never existed. How can there be no more morning or crying if you know that loved ones are being forever tormented in hell? Either way, it's not a salvation issue, and no matter which one is true, I don't want to end up in hell.
God taught to love your enemies and that is what He does, love never faileth, love finds a way, Jesus is the way, and after the refiner's fire the wicked will be destroyed and nothing left in them but adoration and repentance and acceptance of the way .
How would punishing them make the evil be purged from them? It seems that that would cause more disdain for God, or just make them selfishly for self preservation reach out to God in an inauthentic way, just to get out of hell.
I read Erasing Hell back in 2012 (right after reading Love Wins) mostly due to Francis Chan's name being on the book. It was excellent. I thought it was such a good response to Love Wins.
I haven't listened to this video, I really need to come back and listen when I have time. Suffice to say that if the annihilation view of hell were true, what on earth was the point in John the Baptist warning the hypocrites of the wrath of God to come? Jesus also said it was better to enter heaven with one eye than go to hell with 2 eyes. If annihilation were true, it wouldn't matter whether we went to hell with 1 or 2 or no eyes; it wouldn't matter about God's wrath coming down on us because we'd just cease to exist. The annihilation view of hell just doesn't make sense on any level.
Getting annihilated is the wrath of God coming down, and what good would having two eyes do you if you are going to get annihilated? This is precisely why it is better to go to heaven minus one eye, because you can at least still see something.
I haven't read your comment, I really need to read it when I have time. Suffice to say if ETC is true then I have questions that requires an answer. If eternal life is a gift from GOD and those who are in Christ Jesus recieve it then how are the unbelievers tormented for all eternity when they don't have everlasting life? If the human soul is naturally eternal then what is the point of GOD telling them they will die when it makes what Satan said true you shall not SURELY DIE. If the punishment for sin is ECT then why was the sacrifice on the cross which isn't eternal suffice to pay this penalty?
I don’t believe Luke 16 is a parable, but a true life story about a rich man and Lazarus. If annihilation is true, why was the rich man (an unbeliever) being tormented in the flame?
If he was being tormented in flames why would he ask for a fingertip dip of water for his tongue to cure the flaming torment? I wonder what water did he want to taste? Not really. It's the waters of LIFE. He isn't in literal flames of torment. He is in a torment of flames knowing he will not taste the waters of life and thus asks that he just gets a single taste. That's my take away anyway. Makes sense to me.
It's like hey I'm burning from head to toe in open flames. Dont rescue me, don't put me out, but just give me a droplet of water on my tongue. I dont know of ANYONE who burst into flames screaming give me a droplet of water!!!
@@jondoe8014 Because God gave the deceased rich man immortality, he was able to be tormented (he felt the constant pain of being burned) forever and forever without end. The word “certain” in verse 19 below showed Luke 16 isn’t a parable but an actual on going event. Luke 16:19 There was a “certain” rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a “certain” beggar named Lazarus…
@@Landis_Grant The word certain doesn't make it not a parable as certain nobleman is also used in luke 19 which matches the same terminology used in the parable of the talents. Just because you BELIEVE it isn't a parable doesn't make it so.
If the Bible is God's word then why are there over two thousand versions and translations??? Why don't they all say the same thing and have the same meaning??/ Keep this in mind, the original Bible and all those that spawned off of it was written and put together by the Catholic Church!!! Let that sink in!!!
copying errors overtime partly and translation enables people to read in their own languages. Translating from one language to another is not always precise. The catholic church nicely put the Bible together and then hid is from everyone except the abusive/exclusive clergy for 1000 years..... charming.
Hi Preston and others who might see this, I'm pretty new to this idea and have found myself captivated by the idea and want to research it more in depth. Could you provide some Books or Essays in support and opposition to this view? I'm struggling to find a good set of resources to dive into besides my own attempts at interpreting the scripture you presented.
What does it mean when all people on earth would PREFER that ultimate reconciliation is true? Does that mean we have conceived of an outcome more just and more moral than God? I think thats something important to think about, how could we hope for something other than what a perfect and just God has made?
Regarding your discussion of “all” on Romans 5:18. Your parallel of the the Pharisees saying “all men have gone after Jesus” as hyperbole or an overstatement is not actually a true parallel in my opinion. Paul’s letter to Romans is didactic teaching, not a story. So when Paul means all are under condemnation, he means *all* all. I would then say that the rules of parallelism mean that *all* all will be redeemed in Christ.
I really hope that you are right, but I just can't square it with all of the other passages that seem to support annihilationism. I've never wanted to be wrong so much.
@@joshuas1834 I deeply empathize with your angst. Your desire and longing arise (I believe) from a deep moral intuition we all (made in God’s image) have about love and justice… and why Jesus can say to us, “Judge for yourselves what is right”… I am with Luke in his take on Romans 5. Taken at its scandalous face value it concludes with, “where sin abounded grace did much more abound!” - I. e. Jesus the last Adam will have no less effect on the human race than the first. The culmination of Paul’s argument in Romans 11 ends with his longest outburst of praise- and what seems to trigger this is the preceding verse: “God has bound all up to disobedience- in order that he may have mercy on all!” The two groups of passages won’t go away (those indicating annihilation or eternal hell vs those promising ultimate reconciliation) - you must “decide for yourself”, and for me I will never again allow my fallible understanding of any other passage rob me of the Truth that it is God’s love (not wrath) that exceeds all thoughts and imaginations - indeed “where sin abounded grace doth much more abound”! May God continue to bless you on this journey- and open your eyes more and more to the height, breadth and depth of His Love! Ephesians 3:18 BTW - this perspective was held widely during the first few centuries of the Church’s history- I highly recommend Ilaria Ramelli’s A Larger Hope
@@MrHwaynefair thanks for the well written reply. I totally agree that the position you seem to hold has historical precedent and is an option for orthodox believers. I think it is a shame that it hasn't been at the table for discussion for so long. The good news is that seems to be changing. In the end I find annihilationist arguments against universalist proof text to be a little bit more compelling than the universalist arguments against annihilationist proof texts but I reserve the right to change my mind. Blessings to you.
Luke, a numbers of things don’t support a complete parallelism between the all who are in Adam and the all who are in Christ: (1) Romans 5 can’t be disconnected from 4:16, which asserts that salvation is for the descendants of Abraham, but not only for Israelites under the law, but through the faith of Abraham for all that believe. 2) Paul says in 5:1 that only those who have faith have received justification. 3) Paul, in 5:12-19, switches back and forth in parallel fashion between the “all” and the “many” (a term used in Daniel for the saved or elect in Israel, Dan 11:33, 11:39, 12:2). In 5:12-14 he focuses on all in Adam, in 5:15-17 he focuses on the many of Israel, who suffer death through Adam, but much more have life through Christ, if they “receive” the abundance of grace. Then in 5:18 returns to all in Adam and in Christ, then 5:19 returns to the many of Israel in exact parallel to 5:18. It’s hard to say what to exactly make of this distinct pattern. At the very least Paul is emphasizing that Christ is for both Jew and Gentile in the same manner. But does the all in Adam and all in Christ of 5:18, assume that the benefits provided to this all through Christ are actually efficacious for all gentiles? That is a stretch in light of Romans’ 4 demand of faith even for the Jew. This appears also from 5:17 which emphasizes that grace is for the Jew that “receives” it. If this is true for the Jew, how much more so for the Gentile? So while Paul is expansive without limit about what has been objectively and universally provided by Christ’s death for the Gentile and for the Jew, he does limit the free gift based upon the subjective reception of Christ by the individual. Both the corporate and the individual aspects are addressed. We see in Romans 8 that not all are in Christ, but only those that walk in the Spirit (8:9). And in Romans 9: it is not a matter of the flesh of Abraham. (And we might add or of Adam) but it is according to God’s choice (at the least, the corporate choice of believers in Christ, if not of the individuals to be in Christ). Those Jews without faith stumbled over Christ (9:32). So has God’s promise to Israel failed? (9:14, 11:1)? No, because a) some in Israel, like Paul, were saved by faith (11:1), and b) Israel as a people have not stumbled so as cease as a people, but are promised a national renewal in the future, a fullness after the times of the gentiles are complete (11:12). But some Jews have been broken off the tree of salvation (11:17), so the Gentiles should remember they were grafted into Christ by faith, and not be arrogant, least they too be broken off (11:19). God has made clear that Jew and Gentile are under the curse of disobedience so that he might have mercy upon all who have faith, whether Jew or Gentile. What do you do with the demands of faith in chapter 4, 8, and 11? How can an set of individual Jew’s loss of salvation, because of their lack of faith (11:17), be squared with your Roman’s 5 reading of a guarantee of a subjective inclusion in Christ for all?
Thank you very much Preston for this great overview of the 3 historical positions. And, especially thanks for all the research you put into it. Several years ago I was challenged to question the ECT position that I was brought up with. It was through a friend Gerry Beauchemin and his book 'Hope Beyond Hell', arguing for the Ultimate Reconciliation position. I was wondering if you read that book in your research? And if so, did you find any points of his that were non-Biblical?
You said it in your comment, it's a parable. Is heaven literally a treasure in a field? no. parables aren't meant to be taken literally. You could say it isn't a parable since scripture doesn't specify, but the story was used by Jesus as a parable and the language is so literal it's very hard to say it isn't one. Additionally, the support otherwise is very compelling. Even if it is Jesus saying it, I'm not certain the takeaway from that story is what hell looks like.
thanks for your reply, @@lovedogs1999 . I appreciate it :) Can you please share what you think the takeaway from that story is. I agree that it is a parable but I cannot fathom what Jesus wanted us to understand from it?
@@davidmccolgan6972 Arguably, the central message of that parable is that wealth won't save you in the end and that many may be surprised by who receives eternal life and who does not.
The only thing I would say Preston that went unaddressed, is that whatever hell is (though more difficult to interpret than assumed) is awful & terrible.
Every person must be born with everlasting life if ever there is a hell. That idea comes from Satan in the Garden of Eden when he said to Adam... "You will *not* surely die," thus calling God a liar who said first... "You will *surely* die." Anyone preaching of the existence of hell is preaching for Satan, who gave all persons everlasting life. The wages of sin is everlasting life? Or are the wages of sin death? See Ro.6:23. The fact that we all die is overwhelming proof that what God decreed is truth and is real as death plays out in all of us. Satan denied, on that Garden occasion, there is no such thing as everlasting life found only in Jesus Christ. So, to be like God, as Satan so states his goal is to be like God, as in Ez.28 and Isa.14, Satan, then, must be the granter of everlasting life.
Universal salvation/reconciliation is what makes the most sense in love with God’s character. If you and I as human beings will not torture our own kids forever and forever, it makes no sense that God (who is love) would do that to his own creation.
It can sometimes be difficult to know that I belive in conditional immorality while many of my heroes, like the theologians, pastors, teachers and scholars that God used to bring me closer to Truth still hold to ECT. Thing is, I have to part with my brain and ignore what the Bible says, in order to go along with what my "heroes" say on this topic.
P.S. Hell is eternal conscious torment for the fact alone that God allows men to be their own "god" as they have desired and they would rather suffer consciously, eternally, rather than to submit to God whom they despise. God's gifts are without repentance and so it is with the gift of life (existence).
You have said CI cancels out UR but what if only some like the worst of the worst gets CIed and the rest get URed? Another question: does CI happen at physical death or is there some 'punishment' before CI?
Interesting that Sodom and Gomorrah is used as an example of annihilation. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah where burned alive, for some it wasn’t quick, probably hid in the homes and where cooked alive, they also watched their loved ones in terror, the screaming, agony of the horror is minimized. Think trapped in twin tower 911. Also remember the building where eternally annihilated but saying the people where is begging the question
Mark 9:43-44 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Hell is eternal, never ending punishment for the enemies of God. They have no rest day or night eternally.
According to Isaiah, the unsaved will be destroyed by maggots and cremated by fire. ✴ _“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched….”_ (Isaiah 66: 24, NIV) (Jesus, talking about Gehenna, quotes Isaiah at Mark 9: 48)
So basically hell is for undying worms in the end lol. All these people branching off creating their own theology and books just to cope with the fact they might burn forever.
Preston, I appreciate your approach to difficult topics and your willingness to talk about controversial subjects. I must hold to the position that Hell will be eternal and I base this on multiple factors. I understand your looking back into the OT to pull metaphorical terms however we cannot isolate those verses and forget the words that Jesus used. Before going on let us look at Mal 4:1-6 and the use of the word "ashes." When we die and are buried we all return to our original base which is dirt although it does depend on the quality of your casket. Therefore, from the metaphysical standpoint, we do not possess our earthly body in heaven so why would someone have a body as we know it in Hell. Matthew 25:46 we see the phrase eternal punishment and eternal life. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express (1) the eternal existence of God (1Ti 1:17; Rom 1:20; Rom 16:26); (2) of Christ (Rev 1:18); (3) of the Holy Ghost (Heb 9:14); and (4) the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Mat 25:46; Jude 1:6). The idea that the "second death" (Rev 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring forever. (Easton) One cannot get past the fact that God has clearly drawn the line of good and evil, the moral and the immoral. In ref to Matthew 25:26, why would we have an everlasting reward and not have everlasting punishment? Anyway, I enjoyed the video and look forward to watching more.
I think you're misunderstanding what an annihilationist believes about Matt 25:46. The majority of them will agree that eternal means exactly what you say here but the contention is with the word "punishment". Annihilationists believe that the punishment is eternal but that the nature of the punishment is death and not torment, as the Bible repeatedly affirms. This does seem like the more natural reading of Matthew 25:46 for two reasons. 1. The Greek word translated as punishment can mean either Corporal punishment or Capital punishment, it had a wide range of meaning and writers of antiquity used it both ways. 2. The punishment stands in contrast to what the redeemed are given which is "life", so whatever the punishment is it mustn't involve life. It is therefore natural upon closer reflection to exegete the passage in the way a Conditionalist would. With all due respect, I do think that the claim that annihilation "has not the slightest support from scripture" reveals a ton of ignorance on the topic. You may disagree with their conclusion but to claim this shows you've never truly taken the time to understand what they believe. Anyways, All the best with your journey!
Four things I really love about Preston and his approach. 1) his humility to look at a topic with a teachable spirit 2) his approach in evaluating each view against scripture regardless of his own personal preference/view 3) his conclusion that conditional immortality best fits scripture. 4) his graciousness to those who don't hold to the view that he has landed on. I commend you my brother for all of these things.
Truly exemplary of the fruit of the Spirit! Praise the Lord!
Good review. I know you're limited by time, but I would also add that contidtional immortality makes better sense of the cross. If, as ECT affirms, the wages of sin is being eternally tormented, then Jesus did not pay the penalty for our sins on the cross because he was not tormented forever. If the wages of sin is death, as the Bible clearly states, then Jesus did in fact pay the penalty for our sins on the cross. Additionally, I believe that even Revelation 20:10 and John's vision of the Lake of Fire actually affirm annihilation when we properly interpret the symbolizism. After all, John specifically tells us that "the lake of fire is the seond death."
this has been the clincher for me for quite some time. If Jesus paid the penalty for my sin (which He absolutely did) then the penalty for sin cannot be eternal conscious punishment
@@davidmccolgan6972 calvanists would say that Jesus’s torture was Gods way of practically scaring believers into what his wrath might do to them. The cross was an image of what hell will be like for those who don’t accept Christ; only the pain experienced on the cross will be experienced forever.
Clearly not in line with a Christ centered view of scripture, nor is it in line with the God described in 1 Corinthians and the sermon on the mound
@@davidmccolgan6972 Precisely he paid the death penalty....not the eternally separated from God forever penalty....Jesus finished the transgression of his people on Matthew 9:24 making an everlasting atonement for it....its why the holy of holies was rent in 2.
Scott keep in mind that it says, in Rev 20:10 "age of the ages." Not "eternal" or "forever and ever." This refers to the most preeminent age, just like "king of kings" and "lord of lords" means the most preeminent king and the most preeminent lord.
Huh, I actually think the opposite is true; I'm hesitant to accept this view because it diminishes the Cross. If your argument is based on a weak idea of the death and Resurrection I think that's more of a bug than a feature. I mean we tacitly accept that Christ died for everyone who will ever believe in Him and follow his Lordship so why would it paying for eternal damnation be a problem?
Are you arguing that the sacrifice of Jesus is able to surely save an indefinite number of saints but is limited to preventing one-time death?
This is an excellent exposition of conditional immortality. I used to accept ECT but never really studied WHY I accepted that doctrine. When I did study it, the scriptures revealed to me an annihilation view and now I can confidently support the doctrine of annihilationism. It is so clear to me now. Thank you for the additional scripture verses presented here since I missed some of them in my own study but they all lead to the same conclusion.
Not so fast. Like the rich man in Luke 16:16-31, every Adventist who has ever died has found themselves in the same Hades *being tormented in this flame* wishing he could warn is brothers of what is coming for them in the future. Adventists never get it. If you are Adventist, JW or Atheist *It's going to happen to YOU TOO*
*In Luke 16:19-31 Christ opened up to the Christian the unseen world of life after death* The Adventists do everything possible to convince the Christian that we should IGNORE what Christ made explicit. The Adventists, Atheists and cults do every thing they can to change the subject and the meaning of the Christ's explicit words!
The Adventists PREACH the wicked should ignore the warnings of eternal torment! These very scriptures were intended to send stark terror in the hearts of the wicked that they would turn to Christ and righteousness. Yet, Ellen G. White the Adventist Church says to ignore them and do everything they can to force them to be meaningless to the wicked! Christ commanded His Church to preach these things, but the corrupt Sabbath keepers forbid it as they did in Acts 5.
1. The Adventists all teach *the undying worms are eating on a dead body* so that you can tell THE WICKED they won't feel any pain or torment. *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE WORMS EATING ON THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (Mark 9:48, Isaiah 66:22-24)
2. The Adventists teach the wicked that *the unquenchable fire, will be quenched in a few second so, THE WICKED won't feel any pain and have nothing to fear.* *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE FIRE BURNING THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (MT. 5:41-45)
3.The Adventists teach the WICKED the torment of the wicked in Hades is just a grave,* so you don't have to worry about being punished with torment like Christ Himself taught about the wicked rich man.
*When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE FLAMES BURING ON THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (LUKE 16:19-31)
4. The Adventists teach, *the soul CAN be killed when the body is killed,* so the WICKED don't have to worry about being punished after death as Christ taught. *Moreover, if the soul dies with the body, than other people COULD kill both the body and the soul in one act* Mt. 10:28 *says the soul CANNOT BE KILLED*
5. *The Adventist's are preparing the way for the Beast and the False Prophet* The Adventists teach *eternal punishment is annihilation,* so they won't fear eternal punishment and repent of their sins. You all make void the word of God by your traditions and lies.
The Adventists have made *the threat of eternal punishment meaningless* which was intended to make the wicked repent lest they go to eternal punishment. Adventists make the threat of unquenchable fire meaningless, because you claim it only burns for seconds. *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT NEVER TO STOP TORTURING THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED*
6. *The Adventists have made the threat of unquenchable fire meaningless* which was intended to make the wicked repent lest they go to the unquenchable fire, now they do not repent and neither do you all. Adventists make the threat of the torment of the gnawing of undying worms meaningless, because you claim, they only eat dead bodies that feel no pain!! Oh how the false prophet and the beast's love the gospel of annihilationism. They Adventists are preparing the way for the false prophet. Do you think for one moment the false prophet will promise the torment of the wicked if they are worshiped? Not for one second, they will tell everyone how there is no immortal soul and torment of the wicked at their death.
7. When Christ speaks explicitly and says the entire Old Testament ( *the law and the prophets* ) warn of the soul of the wicked being punished immediately after death, The Adventist say, IGNORE IT, IT'S JUST A "PARABLE" so that the WICKED will not repent and neither will the Adventists.
8. When Christ says, the rich man wanted to warn his five living brothers, "lets they come to this place of TORMENT", Adventist teach there is no torment in Hades, it's only a grave and a pile of dirt. The truth is that "HADES" is never the grave.
9. When Christ says, that they wouldn't believe even if the rich man came back from Hades and told them OF THE TORMENT IN HADES the Adventist Church says, men aren't alive in Hades. JUST IGNORE CHRIST AND HIS WARNING, hades is just a pile of dirt so that the WICKED ADVENTISTS WILL NOT REPENT exactly as the false prophet and the beast would have you believe! When, the opposite is true.
10. Here in Luke 16:19-31 *Christ opens the people's eyes unto the unseen world immediately after death and the Adventist despise Him for it!* Here Christ warns them what will happened to them if they refuse to repent, and the Adventist despise and blaspheme Christ for doing so. Christ let's every man know what happened to all the wicked in Noah's time, and to those in Sodom and Gomorrah and all the wicked down through the ages including false teachers and doers of evil and the Adventist despise Christ for it rather than repent of their sins.
God is immortal and when God created man, he said, "let us make Man in OUR image" and then He breathed in to man and made him A LIVING SOUL. God is immortal and so He made man in His image. You all can't get the simplest things correct. God did NOT breathe into the animals as He did man!
*The Adventists have made the threat of unquenchable fire meaningless which was intended to make the wicked repent lest they go to the unquenchable fire,* now they do not repent and neither do you all.
*Adventists make the threat of TORMENT IN HADES meaningless, because you claim it's only a dirt grave!* The Adventists have made the threat of the torment in Hades meaningless, now they do not repent and neither do you all.
*Except you repent, you will deserve every thing you get!*
1. Revelation 16:7
And I heard another out of the altar say, *Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.*
Revelation 19:2
*For true and righteous are his judgments:* for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
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That's Hades bro. Not the lake of fire. Study up on the diff.
@@escanor790 Souls burn in Hades too, my friend. We Christians teach that there is an immortal soul and that the multitude of scriptures teach that the wicked souls of the dead are judged immediately after death and are sent to Hades to be "tormented in this flame" as Christ taught. But, you say, both us and the scripture are lying. Now, if you are wrong, and there is an immortal soul as Christ taught and said the entire Old Testament teaches, *then it would be right for Christ to send you to hell to be tormented for deceiving so many people and telling them there wasn't a hell when there is!* And, to make matters worse, you say that "eternal punishment" is not in duration, while Christ and the Apostles taught it is. So, if all that being so, it would be perfectly right for Christ to send you both to Hades to be tormented and to eternal unending punishment forever for deceiving so many people.
So, then now let us hear you say, *"AMEN AND AMEN"* and that you fully understand the consequences of what you are doing and saying, though you have NO authority. if you are so sure that we are lying. Let us hear the *Amen and Amen* from you since you are so convinced.
So many have read John 3:16 but refuse to interpret it literally.
You are so right, Cameron. People accept half of John 3: 16 but refuse to accept the other half. Go figure. ✴ _For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not_ PERISH PERISH PERISH PERISH PERISH *[ be utterly destroyed ]* .... (John 3: 16, KJV)
It is important to consider how an author uses each word elsewhere and consider the particular context, rather than just interpreting it "literally." I don't think perishing in John 3:16 would have to be annihilation, particularly if we consider how John immediately contrasts it with eternal life (which isn't just literal everlasting life according to John 17). Eternal life in John is relational, and this word for perishing is also used to describe people being lost (or, rather, that Jesus did NOT LOSE any whom the Father gave him). I think one could make a case that the destruction/perishing in John 3:16 is also understood in terms of the loss of relationship with God, not as the annihilation of their soul.
Also, consider how the beast in Revelation 17:8 was going to destruction (same word), which in Revelation 20:10 is described as being tormented day and night forever and ever. Destruction/Death doesn't have to mean the literal ending of their existence.
Question: if the penalty for sin is eternal death, and Christ paid the price for our sin, was Christ eternally destroyed? A similar question could be asked regarding eternal torment.
@@IsaacNussbaum But keep this in mind: the word translated "lost" in Luke 15 is from the same word, "apollumi" - there the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost (prodigal) son are not beyond recovery. "Who then can be saved?! With God all things are possible!"
Jesus said, "Destroy this temple - and in three days I will raise it again..."
Jesus is the last "Word" on everything ❤🩹
@@MrHwaynefair *"Jesus is the last "Word" on everything"* I agree. And here is an example of His words. ✴ _Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see_ [eternal] _life,_ (John 3: 36a; ESV)
Thank you for being a humble man. We need more humble men like you in the Christian community that don't accuse each other of being heretics.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Fantastic to see EVANGELICAL pastors looking HONESTLY AT THE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE FOR ANNIHILATION! Came to this view 30 years ago after it was brought to our attention by our pastor. It made immediate sense when we saw the overwhelming evidence in the scriptures. It also makes sense historically when we see the Roman Catholic Church using the concept of an eternal burning hell to keep their adherents in fear and bondage to their church. It is just so obvious once you see the truth!
That is exactly right! I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, including 8 years of parochial school (they did use it as rosemerry said); I came to faith at 20; and in my thirties came to see this view, because I studied Paul and also read Fudge's "The Fire that Consumes." See also Chapter 20 of my book "The Grace of Christ, Third Edition" (Wipf and Stock).
Maybe that's what Christ was doing too, huh? You borrowed that argument from the Atheists.
Mathew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
There is to be a new creation. A new heaven and earth. Basically a new universe. So if all that currently exists is going to pass away how can there be eternal judgement?
@@jdlyonsky Hell is a misleading translation for Hades. I suppose people can consider this verse as an indication that the lake of fire eliminates (annihilates) the things/people put in it. I wonder, though, if such a view reckons adequately enough with the way that Hades/Death are personified and treated as a cosmic power/force in Scripture. It isn't merely a matter of death and the place of dead ceasing to exist but that they, like the devil and beast, can no longer afflict the people of God.
@@jdlyonsky How would new creation preclude eternal judgment any more than it would preclude eternal life? If I'm going to continue to exist despite the dissolution of the current creation, why couldn't those who would experience torment?
5:50 Preston just confessed the level of actual knowledge of most Seminary teachers (and arguably all who have typically a smaller amount of theological study). They haven't done their own deep dive into some core topics, rather they simply assume their tradition is right.
So we can try and interpret Revelations/dreams/visions, or we can look at what God actually said (Ezekiel 18:32, 18:23, 33:11). Some other good verses for annihilation are James 5:20, Romans 6:23, and John 3:16.
Thanks Preston, really thought provoking. Rev 20:14 I think also supports the annihilation view if I’m not mistaken? Hell itself is burned up!
Another interesting thought on Rev 20:14 is that the Greek word used there is "Hades" which is synonymous with "Sheol" in the Old Testament. Sheol and Hades are never associated with the final punishment in the Bible.
@@casualgamer542Means the grave or death is abolished in the eternal Kingdom.
@@rosemerrynmcmillan1611 No. That is one interpretation of Sheol/Hades. Sheol and Hades makes no sense to refer to the grave considering ancient thought concerning the two. Hades/Sheol is the holding place of the dead. It is not a place solely for the wicked but has a place of paradise and a place of suffering. You can see Jesus even speak of this in Luke 16 with the rich man and Lazarus.
I lean towards Revelation 20:10 as being symbolic language, however, if I am talking to a traditionalist, I would concede that verse. But I believe it's only referring to the beast, false prophet, and the devil. This phrase is not used again. Everything used after the final judgement can be understood differently. And is called the 2nd death.
@@maceawilder I am glad to find someone else who teaches this. It is frustrating that just about everyone who teaches annihilation says that Luke 16 is not literal. Even if it's a parable, it would be the only one not explaining real situations if that's the case! I have never heard anyone claim that wheat and tares don't exist because it's just a parable! You also hit the money on the head about Paradise. Jesus told the thief on the cross he would see him in paradise today! I think the logical conclusion is that this is the same place as Abraham's bosom in Luke 16.
Thank you so much, Preston. I’m not certain what I believe quite yet. But I love your heart and earnest study. Grace and truth, like Jesus. God bless you.
Just recently did a study on these different doctrines for the first time as an adult. This video does well at high-lighting and covering all of the great points and evidence for the Annialationist stand point, while also giving credence to the other viewpoints. So refreshing to see another within the body, who does well at putting away their presuppositions and preconceived ideas, when interpreting scripture through God's lens, and not our own skewed lens. The only thing I would humbly add to this study, is to also approach scripture with your best understanding of not just the Word, but also of our Creator's character and personality, as shown by His Word. This has helped me to find clarity in areas, where just approaching it from a scripture study, shed light on some questions or inquiries I may have. Obviously discernment is key in our entirety of knowing Him and His ways, but thought I would share.
This is really good, Preston. I'm glad that you're putting this out. All the specifics and substance vs. strawmen is really helpful to people who want to legitimately engage this topic and what the Bible and/or Tradition (depending on your view of that distinction :)) say.
"Seek to understand before you seek to refute." Amen
nice work I'm truly on the fence leaning towards annilation aswell. love videos like these to make us dig deeper in scripture. I must admit Chris Dates arguement on annilation inspired me to dig deeper now this video set it over the top... Praise God well done brother
Thanks a lot brother Preston for putting forth a great Bible-based argument for conditional immortality!!! I find immensely helpful to know this position isn't some kind of outlier, having no basis in Scripture. On the contrary, it is heavily rooted and grounded in the Word. In my opinion, it best describes the character of Jesus Christ: his goodness and severity!
Your love & reverence for the Word & your respectful attitude for the position you disagree with is such a good way to communicate your thoughts!!!
God bless you richly!!!
Great talk, thank you, Preston. Over the last two years or so, I have also changed my view from ECT to annihilationism. I totally agree with the four assumptions you stated around the 10 minute mark. We've always got to go back to the Word. It's funny, because I started listening to Chris Date's stuff and the first interview I heard with you was at a time when you were still undecided about this. Afterwards, I read Erasing Hell. Eventually, I got to the interview where you had landed on annihilationism, and I was nearly there myself.
Wow great take on all these verses. I used to be ECT but am now more convinced that conditional immortality has more evidence from scripture. It’s been a few years journey and I’ve landed here.
Conditional immortality turned me into a miso theist
@@MasterporkyMinch? Explain. How? It made me feel more comforted compared to ECT
@@MasterporkyMinch For readers unfamiliar with the term "miso theist" (sic): _Misotheism is the "hatred of God " or "hatred of the gods."_ (Wikipedia)
@@to6955 Compared to ECT that is. Its universes ahead. The guy believes in universalism. Which we all wouldve liked, but its just not what the scripture teaches. God wanted to display his wrath so the saved people by Grace which are no better than the rest can glorify him in his Mercy towards them.
Thank you for this. I’ve been reading and considering these viewpoints and this was very timely.
I am a filipino. I understand simple english.
Death means no more life, ceased from living
Destroy means annihilated, permanently broken, of no use and can not be fixed anymore.
That is true brother. You understand better than most it seems.
Excellent Roderick.
I think the roots of ECT may have come from trying to get as many converts as possible into the seats, combining that with tithing = lots of extra money. The people who love God will be there and stay there (church), as it’s where they want to be out of love anyway, but fear is a strong motivator for more people. I’m not saying there is no fear of the Lord which is appropriate, or even that annhilation isn’t fear inducing, just not as much. More fear = more money. Simple formula.
Eternal torment actually begin with the greek philosophers, primarily Plato, they argued we all have an immortal soul, therefore the wicked burn forever, scripture tells us that we are mortals not inherently immortal, we get immortality through Jesus. I believe as time went on the belief of eternal torment slipped into Christianity and eventually when the Catholics had major power and control they used it as a fear tactic, the Catholics actually claimed it was a heresy to claim that the punishment of the wicked was anything other than eternal torment. So not only were people thinking about being eternally tormented if they don't tithe enough, they also believed they might fall under that eternal torment if they claimed it was actually annihilation. To be honest when people claim we have an immortal soul I almost consider that heresy because it equates man on the level of God, now one could argue, although not Biblically, that God allows man to be immortal, he decides not to destroy, but God most certainlly could annihilate.
Look at the story of the Prodigal Son. That tells it all. A person will suffer from consequences if they are negative. When a person changes their beliefs and behavior that is more loving, then they have come home to the father. That is all you need to know.
There is no indication in that passage or anywhere else in Scripture that a person can convert after death
@@MP-sy4zc Consider Jonah - it can be argued he died and repented *after* dying - then returned to life. If God IS Love - and the One for whom NOTHING is impossible - then this seems to be an open possibility - for, "all things are possible with God" ❤
Yes Sodom and Gommorrah are not burning today and those cities are given as an example of what eternal fire is,it's sad but when you ask a Christian are those cities burning today every single time I've asked they completely avoid giving an answer,and they try to bring up other scriptures ,they avoid the question entirely from my experience
Of course the city is gone, as are the bodies of the billions of people that have died are gone. But their souls are not gone. The body is separate from the soul, and Matthew 10:28 tells us, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
@@Mynameisjoof a soul doesn't exist without a body.Genesis says that man became a living soul. Whenever the Bible makes reference to a soul it's talking about a living breathing creature a nephesh, not some disembodied entity. And you're wrong souls die according to the Bible
@@Mynameisjoof no reply? Ok
@@Mynameisjoof it's been over a week I'm still waiting for a reply do you have one?
Jude 7 references Sodom and Gomorrah as examples of those what suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Seems like they are an example of instant destruction. If people suggest it's what is happening to them after death, it's the same for them as anyone else in the torment framework, so they don't serve as a particular example of anything.
Eternal conscious torment, a fiery funace, darkness, screams of pain, souls divided by chasms in the underworld--they are not found in the OT, but they are found in the intertestament books like 1 Enoch and Judith, up to 100 years before Christ. When Christ spoke of Gehenna/Hades (translated poorly as "hell"). he was speaking to Jews who could relate to that symbolic language. Revelation was written to Jews using the same symbolic language. Paul , writing to mostly non-Jews never mentioned Hades/Gehenna. He said the wages of sin is death.
Enoch was wrote after Christ most scholars agree. It's psudopigripha. Enoch also died book of Hebrews shows . He latter died. He didn't see death when opposers sought his life because of his preaching..
I'd dispute the statement that Revelation was written to Jews. Sure, there were doubtlessly Jews in the churches that John wrote to, but there were also plenty of Gentiles. Paul's letter to the Ephesians testifies to the mixed community present even decades before Revelation. Moreover, the frequent mentions of sexual immorality and food sacrificed to idols in Revelation 2-3 are more likely to issues with Gentile Christians than for Jewish Christians.
@@MP-sy4zc apostle called church saints n revelation says he shall make war with the saints
The Bible also says that the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. Angels are eternal beings not of flesh and blood, they cannot die. Humans were not eternal until Jesus gave us the gift of eternal life through him. So those thrown into the lake of fire didn’t receive this precious gift and were destroyed which was the second death…
Paul even says the wages of sin is death not eternal hell fire.
Good list supporting annihilation. I agree. But the wicked shall perish, And the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: They shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psalm 37:20) Also check out the seventh day Adventist church doctrine regarding the state of the dead, conditional immortality, judgement(annihilation) for the wicked. Just because the eternal torment view is widely accepted, doesn't make it the correct interpretation. Does that sound compatible with the merciful loving God of the Bible?
Who are the wicked exactly?
I can't see that the young woman {in the remote jungles somewhere} that dies in childbirth, and didn't say "the magic prayer", would count as evil. ??
{Just thinking out loud}
Any thoughts?
And what about people being saved post mortem? Is that a possibility?
@@Butterfly777jc
And what about the ancient aborigines of Australia -
or the ancient pygmies of Papua New Guinea - or the ancient blacks of Central Africa -
or the ancient red Indians of North America -
ALL OF WHOM lived thousands of years before Jesus and never even heard the name of Jesus?
It's not that complicated.
If you gather all Bible passages regarding the ultimate fate of the wicked, and make sure you understand them in their contexts, you will end up with a very very short list in support of eternal life in 'hell' (Gehenna / lake of fire) and a very long list of passages in support of death (unconscious) as the wages of sin, even reduction to smoke and ashes (annihilation)
Read what Jesus taught in Matt 10:28.
Mabye the Bible is contradicts itself cause humans made it all up and we all make mistakes. Mabye it’s not a god who wrote the stupid book
You do realize the new testament was written 60 to 70 years after Christ's death? Do you really think they wrote Jesus's words 100% correct?
@@JuanDiaz-uf5ji Excellent point
If u could repent after death then life would have no meaning.
This makes so much sense. I never knew about the annihilation interpretation before and always struggled how people could be left to suffer for eternity. Both are terrible, but annihilation seems more compassionate. Who am I to even have a clue about such things?
The future of debate in regards to the nature of the afterlife is definitely between annihilation and universal reconciliation. I am personally a universalist but I do see where annihilationists are coming from.
@weezy894, well, you know what? Universalism is definitely No good at all and you said you are a Universalist and you think 🤔 that there's Annihilation? And what does the Bible say about that? And where in the Bible does it say anything about annihilation? And u believe it doesn't teach that because There is no such thing as annihilation. And being a Universalist will send you to eternal Lake of Fire of hell and it is eternal and yes it is forever according to the book of Revelations so if you want to believe in a lie then go right ahead and you will regret it and believe in universalism is a one way ticket to send you to hell so you might want to rethink that and read Revelations because you going by your own beliefs but you are not going by what the Bible says.
Really appreciate this calm and thoughtful presentation of the conditionalist perspective.
It's crazy how many people simply believe in ECT because its traditional, or because they think that's the only option.
it is important to acknowledge the contriburion of Edward Fudge on this questiun
I've been back & forth with this for years now as well, & found myself in the middle between ETC, & annihilationism. We were doing bible study recently, & read Mark 9, & off I go again. I agree with you that Rev 14; is the hardest, but I noticed that it was the only place in scripture that talks about people in that sense, and even there, it's only the people that take the mark of beast, which really further limits that. I know it's the waiting period, but I also have a tough time with Luke 16, simply because it shows Jesus himself talking about someone, dead, who's in a lot of suffering, for although not eternity, seemingly quite along time & that in the torment of flames. On the other hand I also struggle with the idea, that when dead, we're not immediately in the presence of the Lord, which some conditional mortality individuals, support. Each time I seem to get closer to just believing the annihilationism view, & it's amazing the peace it gives. I think that perhaps the ETC, brought a lot of us to Christ, in the beginning, but think perhaps, it's chased as many away, because it just seems so insensible, harsh, & inappropriate. After all as Abraham said, shall not the judge of all the earth do right. It just seems to makes so much more sense for the wages of sin to be death, & worms to eat corpses, & God to destroy the wicked with dreadful capital punishment, then for Him to torcher people for trillions of years, & still not destroy them.
Amen 👍🙏💙
Any god that has to scare people into worship isn't worthy of worship. ECT isn't backed by Scripture at all. Literally every verse supports Conditional Immortality and the few verses ppl think supports Eternal Conscious Torment actually do not.
I FIND THIS TOPIC OF GREAT INTEREST MY BROTHER. I am also, leaning towards annihilation for 2 reasons. One , many bible passages suggest " cease to exist", like perish in John 3:16. 2nd reason is the very nature of God and His mercy.
To hold to ECT you have to take the poetic apocalyptic language of revelation literal and the entire rest of the Bible describing the fate of the unsaved "death" "destruction" "you will look for them but will not find them" "burned up" as figurative. ECT is not reconcilable, morally, Biblically, logically, its actually below universal reconciliation in terms of possibility.
Yes I agree, it's the reverse of good biblical understanding. Romans is literal doctrine for example and Revelation is symbolic imagery. Which draws heavily upon the OT.
I honestly hope Revelation 14 is talking about the final judgement because it proves annihilation in my opinion, I think no rest is just imagery used in a book full of imagery connected to already a passage using imagery. The main reason you could believe that this verse in Rev 14 is talking about final judgement is because it says in the presence of the lamb and the angels, but even then it could just be talking about when Jesus returns before the millennial reign and judgement of the wicked.
Rev 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
as you showed
Isaiah 34:9-10 “Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day;Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.”
Isaiah 34 gives a clear picture of utter annihilation, it even talks about unquenchable fire, the smoke that rises forever can't possibly be literal because today there is no smoke rising. Revelation 14 is using imagery found in the OT that gives an image of annihilation, this is almost exactly the same as the way Jesus uses worms that will not die.
Well said about the usage of those terms and imagery. Even unquencable fire, people think that means it goes on torturing forever, when in fact it just means that it can't be quenched or put out.
Listen to the first 3 minutes of his message here.....Conditional immortality a.k.a. annihilationism doesn't mean lack of punishment for the lost. Surely, as God is Wrathful as well as loving, those rejecting Christ will indeed suffer a time of terrible punishment, and only then will they realize it. The true meaning of the words eternal/everlasting and forever are still fuzzy to me, however I will say that the whole idea of the literalist view of ETC doesn't make sense to me in light of a God who is all knowing, all loving, and all powerful. Why He would have designed it this way from the beginning? According to ETC doctrine (and Matt ch 7:13-14), most of the world's population will be burning in hell forever. This sure is a terrible terrible final outcome from a God that is all knowing, all loving and all powerful! What makes it worse is that God has allowed Satan free reign to deceive people. Many people can't see the truth and some of them even want to, they just don't get it. For God to allow such endless terrible suffering for good hearted people who are just merely deceived and lost is beyond cruel to me and not at all indicative of an all knowing, loving and powerful God. A God of wrath - Yes! A God of cruelty - I sure hope not! And yes this is based much on human logic, but didn't God give us brains to use sound logic as well as wisdom from scripture? Secondly, if the level of earthly suffering that Jesus endured for us on the cross was enough to pay for all of the sins of man for all earthly time, then why does God have to forever (with never an end) torture those that missed Jesus? I don't see how anyone with any compassion or reason could be ok with this ETC doctrine, or how God could even expect us to be ok with it! "Eventual" annihilation makes the most logical sense to me (after a fair time of suffering). As far as backing any view up completely with scripture, I am exhausted!! You can find scriptural proof to support any of these doctrines!! Which one best fits God and His omnicient, omnipotent, and omnipresent character??
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
This verse is very interesting in the Greek Septuagint. For "burned" it uses the Greek word "kaio" meaning to burn. But for consumed it uses "katakaio" meaning to burn down or wholly consume. "Katakaio" comes from "kata" meaning down and "kaio" to burn. So the bush was burning but not burned down.
2545. καιὼ̀ kaio kah’-yo; apparently a primary verb; to set on fire, i.e. kindle or (by implication) consume: - burn, light.
2618. κατακαιὼ̀ katakaio kat-ak-ah’-ee-o; from 2596 and 2545; to burn down (to the ground), i.e. consume wholly: - burn (up, utterly).
Thus if the wicked in hell are to burn forever they would be burned with fire but not consumed (kaio-ed but not katakaio-ed). So what does the Bible say?
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up (Strong's G2618) the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn (Strong's G2618) them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned (Strong's G2618) in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
So, unlike the burning bush, which was not burned up but was only on fire; only "kaio-ed", the unrepentant wicked will be wholly consumed by the fire when the world ends; they will be "katakaio-ed". This is what the Bible teaches. This is why is speaks of them, and even Satan, being turned to ashes. Ashes can't feel or think. There is no eternal torment: no wicked people will be like the bush and be on fire without being turned to ashes. However, there is a second death, which causes the cessation of existence forever.
I loved this talk and how it has made me start questioning the ECT theory, which is the only one I was ever taught growing up. I would say though that I think it would be beneficial to acknowledge the different types of death in the Bible, which proves the word "death" means separation. For instance, Adam and Eve's bodies or souls did not cease to exist the day of their fall, but they did die in the sense of separation from God. Eternal death could therefore be defined as eternal separation from God, which could occur in the lake of fire or through annihilation and neither would create a logical conflict.
That's a good point, but I would point out that the Hebrew of the verse mentions the Hebrew word for die twice, so would be better rendered "in dying you shall die". Although that reads strange in English. The idea being, the day he ate from the tree, he became mortal and eventually would die. So whilst, that did create a relational separation, I don't think that is the primary emphasis of what God was saying there, although I can see why many do think that. It's like saying once he commited the crime, his fate (death) was sealed.
With how long we have been reading the book of Revelation, were still scratching our heads over it. The symbolism is unreal. We might not fully understand it until it all comes to pass. Then we will say, oh! That's what the book of Revelation was talking about.
That's an honest assessment. As someone who has read it maybe 30-50 times and still aren't sure, it amazes me how those who haven't read it even once seem to "know" what it is talking about. You are real brother.
Revelation requires a working knowledge of the entire Bible and anyone who tells me they have a working knowledge of the entire Bible I instantly question.
Test all things and holdfast to that which is good.
That's why prophesy came from person to person because not one human could hold all the truths.
I can give you some of the Bibles explanation on some symbols in Revelation I can, by no means, claim I know what every symbol means.
So when it comes to things I am unsure of I make sure to make that known. I'll say things like the symbols to me seem to be expressing this, but your interpretation (as long as it falls in line of what is presented) can be just as valid.
I will always have questions.
Instead of yelling “heretic!” at you my actual reaction was “yes, woo-hoa!” After heavily defending traditionalism for YEARS, I thoroughly investigated my heart by talking to the Lord and fellow- believers (including my spiritual leaders) AND by investigating the Scriptures, I’ve finally landed on Conditional immortality - though I don’t believe in total annihilation (in my view, people’s personality, all their good aspirations and hopes cease to exist and their self-consciousness as well, so what IS being tortured is what remains - the sinful nature abominable to God which only confirms a passage from Rev 14 where it says that people will be tortured before the Lamb forever and ever…) thank you for sharing that! 15:06
In regards to the verse in Rev 14 there is a very similar verse in Isaiah 34:9-10 where the smoke of their torment, kind of strangely to our ears, speaks about Edom's destruction. You could check out that reference if so inclined.
The testimony of the destruction goes up (that is the smoke).
When a person is destroyed it is eternal. Being kept somehow to experience an ongoing experience.......it is unnecessary. God will ultimately destroy the soul in Hell/Gehenna. Just like Jesus taught.
Remember in Revelation that Hell and death will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire/Gehenna.
Thank you! I’ve been really thinking about this a lot lately, especially since I want to pursue what Scripture points to.
What bible, version, translation are you talking about that we must hold as totally without errors. When they all say different things all the way through. The fist English translation, the Wycliffe Translation, has 122 hells in it. The next oldest, the King James Version, has only 54 hells in it, less than half of the original. The 6 most popular versions today only contain 13 uses of hell as in the NIV and the ESV. Which one of them is the one we must believe in? Which one is without errors?
Why do some people believe annihilation is more scary than eternal conscious torment?
Would you want to be tortured forever and ever or simply cease to exist?
I believe theres no way to completely destroy a soul maybe it doesnt exist in heaven or in gods eyes but it exists in hell its just it ceases to exist to believers.
@@chadpugh443 *"I believe theres (sic) no way to completely destroy a soul"* It appears that God knows a way, Chad.
✴ _'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna._ (Matthew 10: 28; YLT)
(Gehenna is a valley south and west of Jerusalem.)
Another note to add to the three big passages is that there evidence to support that in Matthew 25 the Greek for our English word “eternal/everlasting” is “age-enduring”. And for the revelation passages, the Greek may be saying “the age of ages, or age to age”. Translations like YLT, Literal Standard Version, and Weymouth translate these passages in these ways.
Preston what about Daniel 12:2?
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt
Never really connected this vs out of Daniel with this conversation. Thanks, this is a really interesting topic. Definitely a topic we need to get right if we are telling people what judgment might look like.
It's shame in the eyes of the living...
@@Mrm1985100 maybe but I think that's doubtful.
Daniel 12:2 (NLT): Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace.
Doesn't seem to be written that way.
I think he covered this: the contempt can be everlasting without the need for the object of contempt to still exist. Someone who is currently alive can continue to hold their contempt for someone who is now dead.
@@davidmccolgan6972 I agree that is possible, however in context both awaken.
The reason I even responded to the original comment was that it does seem to be a vs. which defends E.C.T. from the Old Testament.
The Adventists PREACH the wicked should ignore the warnings of eternal torment! These very scriptures were intended to send stark terror in the hearts of the wicked that they would turn to Christ and righteousness. Yet, Ellen G. White the Adventist Church says to ignore them and do everything they can to force them to be meaningless to the wicked! Christ commanded His Church to preach these things, but the corrupt Sabbath keepers forbid it as they did in Acts 5.
1. The Adventists all teach *the undying worms are eating on a dead body* so that you can tell THE WICKED they won't feel any pain or torment. *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE WORMS EATING ON THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (Mark 9:48, Isaiah 66:22-24)
2. The Adventists teach the wicked that *the unquenchable fire, will be quenched in a few second so, so THE WICKED won't feel any pain and have nothing to fear.* *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE FIRE BURNING THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (MT. 5:41-45)
3.The Adventists teach the WICKED *the torment of the wicked in Hades is just a grave,* so you don't have to worry about being punished with torment like Christ Himself taught about the wicked rich man.
*When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT OF THE FLAMES BURING ON THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED NEVER TO STOP!* (LUKE 16:19-31)
4. The Adventists teach, *the soul CAN be killed when the body is killed,* so the WICKED don't have to worry about being punished after death as Christ taught. *Moreover, if the soul dies with the body, than other people COULD kill both the body and the soul in one act* Mt. 10:28 *says the soul CANNOT BE KILLED*
5. *The Adventist's are preparing the way for the Beast and the False Prophet* The Adventists teach *eternal punishment is annihilation,* so they won't fear eternal punishment and repent of their sins. You all make void the word of God by your traditions and lies.
The Adventists have made *the threat of eternal punishment meaningless* which was intended to make the wicked repent lest they go to eternal punishment. Adventists make the threat of unquenchable fire meaningless, because you claim it only burns for seconds. *When the truth is, the scripture is speaking of the TORMENT NEVER TO STOP TORTURING THE BODY AND SOUL OF THE WICKED*
6. *The Adventists have made the threat of unquenchable fire meaningless* which was intended to make the wicked repent lest they go to the unquenchable fire, now they do not repent and neither do you all. Adventists make the threat of the torment of the gnawing of undying worms meaningless, because you claim, they only eat dead bodies that feel no pain!! Oh how the false prophet and the beast's love the gospel of annihilationism. They Adventists are preparing the way for the false prophet. Do you think for one moment the false prophet will promise the torment of the wicked if they are worshiped? Not for one second, they will tell everyone how there is no immortal soul and torment of the wicked at their death.
7. When Christ speaks explicitly and says the entire Old Testament ( *the law and the prophets* ) warn of the soul of the wicked being punished immediately after death, The Adventist say, IGNORE IT, IT'S JUST A "PARABLE" so that the WICKED will not repent and neither will the Adventists.
8. When Christ says, the rich man wanted to warn his five living brothers, "lets they come to this place of TORMENT", Adventist teach there is no torment in Hades, it's only a grave and a pile of dirt. The truth is that "HADES" is never the grave.
9. When Christ says, that they wouldn't believe even if the rich man came back from Hades and told them OF THE TORMENT IN HADES the Adventist Church says, men aren't alive in Hades. JUST IGNORE CHRIST AND HIS WARNING, hades is just a pile of dirt so that the WICKED ADVENTISTS WILL NOT REPENT exactly as the false prophet and the beast would have you believe! When, the opposite is true.
10. Here in Luke 16:19-31 *Christ opens the people's eyes unto the unseen world immediately after death and the Adventist despise Him for it!* Here Christ warns them what will happened to them if they refuse to repent, and the Adventist despise and blaspheme Christ for doing so. Christ let's every man know what happened to all the wicked in Noah's time, and to those in Sodom and Gomorrah and all the wicked down through the ages including false teachers and doers of evil and the Adventist despise Christ for it rather than repent of their sins.
Excellent, intellectually honest, humble presentation! I too have arrived at annihilation and now affirm it.
Question, since man is a spirit, soul, and body (Rom 8:6). Do you believe the unconscious raw life force (spirit) of a person returns to God and only their body and mind are destroyed?
Examples:
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Just to clarify, Romans 8 is referring to how we orient the mind, whether by the flesh(in the sense Paul uses it to describe worldly living and sinfulness) or by the Spirit. So Paul's not really teaching a trifold metaphysics of humanity in the first place, at least not in Romans 8.
So in Matthew 10 the body and soul are designating the fullness of a person; in other words the destruction of one bot not the other is partial, but the destruction of both(whether allegorical or literal) is the much greater concern. This doesn't really leave room for any 'return to God.' Honestly that sounds more like the notion of Samsara found in Eastern religions but I don't believe it's compatible with the Bible or Christian theism.
Whether or not there is a 3 fold nature to humanity as opposed to strict dualism is still up for discussion; I'd say Jesus is justified in making a polemic statement about Body vs Spirit without precluding a metaphysical concept that doesn't relate to what he is teaching. Personally I'd say the mind is the realm of personal existence whereby the spirit and the body intersect but it doesn't have a distinct substance from the other two.
I would argue that romans 8:6 is a weak way of declaring mankind is Spirit, Soul, and Body as this verse declares mind within both cases.
To be carnally minded and spiritually minded arent used to hint at us being a Spirit.
I believe we are body, and soul. The Spirit part isn't ours. For example the Spiritual aspect is something external within us.
Having the Spirit of the Lord within us granting life.
In Genesis 6 my Spirit shall not always strive with man showing that when the Spirit of GOD is not with man his life span is decreased.
Though if one believes we are also spiritual beings I have no way to say they are wrong. I simply don't see a reason to believe we are spiritual beings..
The extrapolation typically comes from being made in the image of GOD saying since GOD is a trinity so too are we, but that is also an assumption.
Being created in the image of GOD, to me, doesn't speak directly being like GOD as much as it presents a uniqueness for mankind.
I lean towards a soverign individual doctrine in that Who is like unto GOD?
There is no GOD before GOD, and there is no GOD after GOD. This applies to us declaring a form of unique property. There will be no me before me, and there will be no me after me. I am a unique individual. The same is true of all of us.
Though we are part of a body Paul makes it clear we are individual members as well.
So while I don't believe we are spiritual beings I am not against those who do. I just believe it is more of an assumption than an actual fact is my point.
(Edited because my auto correct did not capitalize GOD in two instances)
I first heard this view from Chris Date. Being raised on Eternal Consious Torment, I basically thought it was the only biblical view. But then I realized that only 1 chapter in the bible seems to indicate ECT. Revelation 20. A book full of symbolic language. Everywhere else says eternal life or death/perish.
I think it's interesting how the lake of fire is brimstone and fire just like in smelting gold and brimstone or sulfur dioxide is released making the gold pure. God does not cast people out forever. In Lamentations 3:31 it says “For the Lord does not cast off for all time”
It's about life or death. Life with Jesus, eternity or dead in sin, annihilation. I agree with your summation.
Mark 9:42-48 Blows away any concept that denies the eternality of Hell. i.e. "where the fire is not quenched". That is a simple phrase repeated several times in scripture. It is REALLY doing an injustice to scripture to make those verses mean anything other than eternal. HUMAN REASONING twisting scripture to fit ones belief system is sad, untrue & damnable
*"Mark 9:42-48 Blows away any concept that denies the eternality of Hell."* You are wrong. Dead wrong. Woefully and completely wrong. A report of a house fire in my town said that the firemen could not put the fire out (they could not quench it). That fire stopped burning years ago.
It's a quote from Is 66 the last verses where worms and fire are consuming dead bodies... It really is an injustice not to cross reference. Jesus was quoting OT scripture. Check it out for yourself.
Rev14:9-11 the smoke of their torment goes up forever. I think this smoke is best described by Isa 66:24 where their destruction of aabhorance to all people. Or the smoke of their torment in rev is remembered forever by all people.
Great overview Preston! Thank you for the ‘thought-ful’ and ‘thought-provoking’ video!
I was following until Revelations 20. How can the powers that be in Rome be tortured forever, if none of the individuals in power are tortured forever? WHO or what is being tortured? The devil behind it all? But he was already mentioned.
And who is the false prophet?
When you burn grass it does not pass out of existence. It changes from one state to another. It doesn't just disappear like magic.
Metaphors are also not perfect examples. They always have a flaw somewhere in the example. The point of a metaphor is not every single possible detail, but the overall message.
It's like people using metaphors to explain the Trinity none of them get it 100% right, but the gist of it is there.
Kinda reminds me of when Jesus told them you strain at a gnat and swallow a whole camel.
Many people will focus on the flaw of the imperfect metaphor instead of what it is trying to portray.
Sodom is said to be an example of the upcoming judgement.
And Jesus gives us a warning to Remember Lots wife.
I don't adhere to everything the SDA teach, but Annihilation has been taught for over 150 years. It brings peace to many knowing even those we love who never come to Jesus or refuse to, God's mercy in Judgment consumes them with fire, and there is, by their choice an Eternal separation from God. God's Love and Mercy is present in His Judgment.
I came to the same conclusion. Thanks! Excellent teaching.
Good teaching
Bro, there was this sermon on TH-cam that covers “Why the devil doesn’t just repent?” And I gave the answer in the comments and provided Romans 6:23, “The Wages of sin is death” and I talked about how the devil was originally a glorious angel second in command to God, but he became so full of himself to the point of sinning. Just as God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate the fruit, the Devil must’ve been told the same thing, and convincing Adam and Eve that death wasn’t real, was his way of paying God back.
This lady tried telling me that “we don’t burn up”, and she gave me verses that in fact even contradicted her own words, such as “The lake of fire is the second death”.
I gave her verse after verse after verse that point to destruction, and gave the original Hebrew and Greek words.
It was so exhausting to try to get it through her thick skull, and she told me that I was gonna give an account for not understanding God’s Word. I tried to win the debate but I didn’t.
In Revelation 20:10 where it says, “tormented day and night forever and ever” the literal translation is “for ages and ages”. Before the devil is burned up, he will suffer in proportion to all the bad things he has done, and he has done far more evil than a Roman numeral can express,
Its very simple when you understand it, the opposite of eternal life is eternal death not eternal life in hell.
Some Christian believe God loves everyone and wants to save all of mankind. Sadly, they believe man's free will supercedes God's desire, therefore God is not all powerful.
Other Christians believe God is all powerful, but not all loving.
Christian Universalism posits God is all powerful and all loving. He wants all of mankind to come to repentance, nothing can thwart His will, therefore all of mankind will be restored.
Some people believe Christian Universalism is heresy, but God being love and power are both orthodox positions.
I find that whereas there is prima facie support for annihilation or eternal damnation, neither of these positions form a harmonious whole. Further, they mostly rely on parables, symbolim and hyperbole, whereas ultimate reconciliation is in plain language.
For example, John the Baptist called Jesus the Savior of the World. John said he is the propitiation for our sins and not ours only but the whole world. Luke states all flesh shall see God's salvation. Thats very specific. Paul says God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
These are just 4 instances. Which of these verses do I need to jettison or redefine in order to hang on to a false doctrine of annihilation or eternal torture?
There are lots of biblical verses to support annihilation. But what if these verses refer to physical death or destruction of the physical body. Rev 20 refers to Lake of fire as second death. It looks to me like the second death is eternal.
That is what it means, the Bible doesn't postulate another kind of death. The second death occurs after you are physically raised for the judgment.
You shall not SURELY DIE....
Good points. Another point on Rev. 14:9-11 : for those that want to take the passage totally literally, it only applies to anyone who "worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or hand".
For most eternal-conscious-torment proponents, this would apply to only certain people at the end of the age. That is, they don't believe that anyone of the billions of people who have already lived have literally worshipped the beast or received a mark on their head or hand.
So, if you want to think that eternal-conscious torment is what Rev. 14:9-11 is teaching, it applies only to some people in the future.
What Preston has called the strongest passage for ECT, ends up being very weak. The passage means something different than what ECT proponents think.
I agree but it's ECT 😉
@@escanor790 Thanks. I edited it.
Well articulated. I am not alone in some of my thoughts.
If ETC is the correct view why don't we see it in the OT? It's so foundational if it's true and God should have presented it to Adam in the garden. But God told them they would die, not be eternally tormented for sinning.
And you're correct they did die according to the Bible, the idea of the immortality of the soul is not biblical comes from paganism and it's really sad that most religious leaders and churches are repeating the LIE of the devil"thou shalt not surely die"
@@Hulkmosher Boom. Mic drop!
Isaiah 5 :13 says therefore my people are gone into captivity, and 5:25 says therefore the anger of the Lord is kindled against my people,I think this is talking
about when Jerusalem were taken into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar, it’s not saying God is angry at the Saints, the bodies were literally lying in the streets after Nebuchadnezzar burned Jerusalem, Isaiah 1:1 says this chapter is about Judah and Jerusalem in the days of uzziah and other kings, I don’t think Isaiah 1:27-31 is talking about hell either, it’s about Jerusalem ,I think each verse should be read in context and the whole chapter read
I like your humble attitude about this difficult topic. I personally rule out ECT because it has insufficient biblical evidence AND it brings in the issue of the character of God as a torturer. God tells us to live our enemies but he ultimately not only refuses to do so but He exacts the most horrific retribution to a degree we cannot begin to fathom. Conditional Immortality has much more going for it biblically but it also compromises God's character. In both views billions of people are either tortured or destroyed, probably more than n are saved. Does God annihilate those who ate made in His image? Don't we all have at least some vestige of God's image remaining despite sins marring in our lives? For me I believe in the gospel as GOOD NEWS not dreadful news or decidedly dodgy news. You didn't mention much about universal reconciliation, nor did you mention the views of hell in Eastern Chriistianity. What about " Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." The only way God can receive glory due is if we all WILLINGLY confess Jesus' Lordship not with our arms twisted behind our backs. The totality of scripture has reconciliation and restoration as it's principle. God's love does win and just as in the parable of the Lost Sheep brings it home to bring all into the shepherd's purview. For God, success is 100% nothing less. I am not saying the Lake of Fire is not real but that it is the Fire of God's love consuming the stubble of our false selves, purifying us in order to fully reconcile each one. Just like the Prodigal Son, we will all come home, I believe.
We will find out which interpretation of the Bible is right when we die. Hopefully we interpreted it right.
What if it's all three? I don't know if you've ever poked around the book of enoch, and I'm not sure how much stock I place in it because I've only briefly read through it, but I do remember it describing three categories of unsaved people that go to sheol, and describes all three positions of conscious torment, annihilationism, and universalism
35:45 could be that those who take the mark become inhuman and are therefore treated like the devil and his angels
I don't think the nature of hell can be fully understood without distinguishing between the old and the new creation in us and treating them separately. Do we hear what Paul says, when he writes e.g. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"? What if hell is simply the unavoidable annihilation of everything in us - all of us - that is not "born from above"?
Rev 21:4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
I imagine the destruction of the soul being somewhat akin to that person having never existed.
How can there be no more morning or crying if you know that loved ones are being forever tormented in hell?
Either way, it's not a salvation issue, and no matter which one is true, I don't want to end up in hell.
revelation 14:9-11 To me sounds more like a warning for revelation 16:2 which happens on earth before the lake of fire.
God taught to love your enemies and that is what He does, love never faileth, love finds a way, Jesus is the way, and after the refiner's fire the wicked will be destroyed and nothing left in them but adoration and repentance and acceptance of the way .
How would punishing them make the evil be purged from them? It seems that that would cause more disdain for God, or just make them selfishly for self preservation reach out to God in an inauthentic way, just to get out of hell.
@@judethree4405
Excellent point
God is love and love never faileth
i've come around on the doctrines of annihilation and soul sleep because they line up better with the overall narrative of the scriptures
I do believe your viewpoint is biblical, but so is mine.
I read Erasing Hell back in 2012 (right after reading Love Wins) mostly due to Francis Chan's name being on the book. It was excellent. I thought it was such a good response to Love Wins.
I was taught in church eternal torment but biblically I believe annihilation after study on this subject.
I haven't listened to this video, I really need to come back and listen when I have time. Suffice to say that if the annihilation view of hell were true, what on earth was the point in John the Baptist warning the hypocrites of the wrath of God to come? Jesus also said it was better to enter heaven with one eye than go to hell with 2 eyes. If annihilation were true, it wouldn't matter whether we went to hell with 1 or 2 or no eyes; it wouldn't matter about God's wrath coming down on us because we'd just cease to exist. The annihilation view of hell just doesn't make sense on any level.
Is eternal life such a small prize that eternal death is no penalty at all?
Getting annihilated is the wrath of God coming down, and what good would having two eyes do you if you are going to get annihilated? This is precisely why it is better to go to heaven minus one eye, because you can at least still see something.
@@Afterword. Mic drop!
I haven't read your comment, I really need to read it when I have time. Suffice to say if ETC is true then I have questions that requires an answer.
If eternal life is a gift from GOD and those who are in Christ Jesus recieve it then how are the unbelievers tormented for all eternity when they don't have everlasting life?
If the human soul is naturally eternal then what is the point of GOD telling them they will die when it makes what Satan said true you shall not SURELY DIE.
If the punishment for sin is ECT then why was the sacrifice on the cross which isn't eternal suffice to pay this penalty?
I don’t believe Luke 16 is a parable, but a true life story about a rich man and Lazarus. If annihilation is true, why was the rich man (an unbeliever) being tormented in the flame?
If he was being tormented in flames why would he ask for a fingertip dip of water for his tongue to cure the flaming torment?
I wonder what water did he want to taste?
Not really. It's the waters of LIFE.
He isn't in literal flames of torment. He is in a torment of flames knowing he will not taste the waters of life and thus asks that he just gets a single taste. That's my take away anyway. Makes sense to me.
It's like hey I'm burning from head to toe in open flames. Dont rescue me, don't put me out, but just give me a droplet of water on my tongue.
I dont know of ANYONE who burst into flames screaming give me a droplet of water!!!
@@jondoe8014 Because God gave the deceased rich man immortality, he was able to be tormented (he felt the constant pain of being burned) forever and forever without end.
The word “certain” in verse 19 below showed Luke 16 isn’t a parable but an actual on going event.
Luke 16:19
There was a “certain” rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a “certain” beggar named Lazarus…
@@jondoe8014 Because I don’t believe it’s a parable therefore it shouldn’t be allegorized but interpreted literally.
@@Landis_Grant
The word certain doesn't make it not a parable as certain nobleman is also used in luke 19 which matches the same terminology used in the parable of the talents.
Just because you BELIEVE it isn't a parable doesn't make it so.
I joined a cult because I believed I anilationism I thought I was the only evangelical that had this view
If the Bible is God's word then why are there over two thousand versions and translations??? Why don't they all say the same thing and have the same meaning??/ Keep this in mind, the original Bible and all those that spawned off of it was written and put together by the Catholic Church!!! Let that sink in!!!
copying errors overtime partly and translation enables people to read in their own languages. Translating from one language to another is not always precise. The catholic church nicely put the Bible together and then hid is from everyone except the abusive/exclusive clergy for 1000 years..... charming.
Annihilation fits in perfectly with the character of God.
Hi Preston and others who might see this, I'm pretty new to this idea and have found myself captivated by the idea and want to research it more in depth. Could you provide some Books or Essays in support and opposition to this view? I'm struggling to find a good set of resources to dive into besides my own attempts at interpreting the scripture you presented.
What does it mean when all people on earth would PREFER that ultimate reconciliation is true? Does that mean we have conceived of an outcome more just and more moral than God? I think thats something important to think about, how could we hope for something other than what a perfect and just God has made?
Regarding your discussion of “all” on Romans 5:18. Your parallel of the the Pharisees saying “all men have gone after Jesus” as hyperbole or an overstatement is not actually a true parallel in my opinion. Paul’s letter to Romans is didactic teaching, not a story. So when Paul means all are under condemnation, he means *all* all. I would then say that the rules of parallelism mean that *all* all will be redeemed in Christ.
I really hope that you are right, but I just can't square it with all of the other passages that seem to support annihilationism. I've never wanted to be wrong so much.
@@joshuas1834 I deeply empathize with your angst. Your desire and longing arise (I believe) from a deep moral intuition we all (made in God’s image) have about love and justice… and why Jesus can say to us, “Judge for yourselves what is right”… I am with Luke in his take on Romans 5. Taken at its scandalous face value it concludes with, “where sin abounded grace did much more abound!” - I. e. Jesus the last Adam will have no less effect on the human race than the first. The culmination of Paul’s argument in Romans 11 ends with his longest outburst of praise- and what seems to trigger this is the preceding verse: “God has bound all up to disobedience- in order that he may have mercy on all!”
The two groups of passages won’t go away (those indicating annihilation or eternal hell vs those promising ultimate reconciliation) - you must “decide for yourself”, and for me I will never again allow my fallible understanding of any other passage rob me of the Truth that it is God’s love (not wrath) that exceeds all thoughts and imaginations - indeed “where sin abounded grace doth much more abound”!
May God continue to bless you on this journey- and open your eyes more and more to the height, breadth and depth of His Love!
Ephesians 3:18
BTW - this perspective was held widely during the first few centuries of the Church’s history- I highly recommend Ilaria Ramelli’s A Larger Hope
@@MrHwaynefair thanks for the well written reply. I totally agree that the position you seem to hold has historical precedent and is an option for orthodox believers. I think it is a shame that it hasn't been at the table for discussion for so long. The good news is that seems to be changing. In the end I find annihilationist arguments against universalist proof text to be a little bit more compelling than the universalist arguments against annihilationist proof texts but I reserve the right to change my mind. Blessings to you.
Luke, a numbers of things don’t support a complete parallelism between the all who are in Adam and the all who are in Christ: (1) Romans 5 can’t be disconnected from 4:16, which asserts that salvation is for the descendants of Abraham, but not only for Israelites under the law, but through the faith of Abraham for all that believe. 2) Paul says in 5:1 that only those who have faith have received justification. 3) Paul, in 5:12-19, switches back and forth in parallel fashion between the “all” and the “many” (a term used in Daniel for the saved or elect in Israel, Dan 11:33, 11:39, 12:2). In 5:12-14 he focuses on all in Adam, in 5:15-17 he focuses on the many of Israel, who suffer death through Adam, but much more have life through Christ, if they “receive” the abundance of grace. Then in 5:18 returns to all in Adam and in Christ, then 5:19 returns to the many of Israel in exact parallel to 5:18. It’s hard to say what to exactly make of this distinct pattern. At the very least Paul is emphasizing that Christ is for both Jew and Gentile in the same manner. But does the all in Adam and all in Christ of 5:18, assume that the benefits provided to this all through Christ are actually efficacious for all gentiles? That is a stretch in light of Romans’ 4 demand of faith even for the Jew. This appears also from 5:17 which emphasizes that grace is for the Jew that “receives” it. If this is true for the Jew, how much more so for the Gentile?
So while Paul is expansive without limit about what has been objectively and universally provided by Christ’s death for the Gentile and for the Jew, he does limit the free gift based upon the subjective reception of Christ by the individual. Both the corporate and the individual aspects are addressed.
We see in Romans 8 that not all are in Christ, but only those that walk in the Spirit (8:9). And in Romans 9: it is not a matter of the flesh of Abraham. (And we might add or of Adam) but it is according to God’s choice (at the least, the corporate choice of believers in Christ, if not of the individuals to be in Christ). Those Jews without faith stumbled over Christ (9:32). So has God’s promise to Israel failed? (9:14, 11:1)? No, because a) some in Israel, like Paul, were saved by faith (11:1), and b) Israel as a people have not stumbled so as cease as a people, but are promised a national renewal in the future, a fullness after the times of the gentiles are complete (11:12). But some Jews have been broken off the tree of salvation (11:17), so the Gentiles should remember they were grafted into Christ by faith, and not be arrogant, least they too be broken off (11:19). God has made clear that Jew and Gentile are under the curse of disobedience so that he might have mercy upon all who have faith, whether Jew or Gentile.
What do you do with the demands of faith in chapter 4, 8, and 11? How can an set of individual Jew’s loss of salvation, because of their lack of faith (11:17), be squared with your Roman’s 5 reading of a guarantee of a subjective inclusion in Christ for all?
Romans 5:18 states that the atonement of sin was for all. It doesn't say all would accept it though.
Thank you very much Preston for this great overview of the 3 historical positions. And, especially thanks for all the research you put into it. Several years ago I was challenged to question the ECT position that I was brought up with. It was through a friend Gerry Beauchemin and his book 'Hope Beyond Hell', arguing for the Ultimate Reconciliation position. I was wondering if you read that book in your research? And if so, did you find any points of his that were non-Biblical?
Hell as eternal torment comes from Plato by way of Augustine, Jerome, Luther & Calvin... Col. 2:8
THANK YOU!!
I'd be really interested to know how the parable of the rich man and lazarus reconciles with this view of conditional immortality.
You said it in your comment, it's a parable. Is heaven literally a treasure in a field? no. parables aren't meant to be taken literally. You could say it isn't a parable since scripture doesn't specify, but the story was used by Jesus as a parable and the language is so literal it's very hard to say it isn't one. Additionally, the support otherwise is very compelling. Even if it is Jesus saying it, I'm not certain the takeaway from that story is what hell looks like.
thanks for your reply, @@lovedogs1999 . I appreciate it :) Can you please share what you think the takeaway from that story is.
I agree that it is a parable but I cannot fathom what Jesus wanted us to understand from it?
@@davidmccolgan6972 Arguably, the central message of that parable is that wealth won't save you in the end and that many may be surprised by who receives eternal life and who does not.
Even if it were literal, and not a parable, it would be talking about the intermediate state and not talking about the eternal state.
@@davidmccolgan6972 How the meek will inherit heaven
The only thing I would say Preston that went unaddressed, is that whatever hell is (though more difficult to interpret than assumed) is awful & terrible.
I think all sides already know hell is a bad place.
I know. What the hell?! 😂
Every person must be born with everlasting life if ever there is a hell. That idea comes from Satan in the Garden of Eden when he said to Adam... "You will *not* surely die," thus calling God a liar who said first... "You will *surely* die." Anyone preaching of the existence of hell is preaching for Satan, who gave all persons everlasting life. The wages of sin is everlasting life? Or are the wages of sin death? See Ro.6:23. The fact that we all die is overwhelming proof that what God decreed is truth and is real as death plays out in all of us. Satan denied, on that Garden occasion, there is no such thing as everlasting life found only in Jesus Christ. So, to be like God, as Satan so states his goal is to be like God, as in Ez.28 and Isa.14, Satan, then, must be the granter of everlasting life.
Universal salvation/reconciliation is what makes the most sense in love with God’s character. If you and I as human beings will not torture our own kids forever and forever, it makes no sense that God (who is love) would do that to his own creation.
It can sometimes be difficult to know that I belive in conditional immorality while many of my heroes, like the theologians, pastors, teachers and scholars that God used to bring me closer to Truth still hold to ECT. Thing is, I have to part with my brain and ignore what the Bible says, in order to go along with what my "heroes" say on this topic.
P.S. Hell is eternal conscious torment for the fact alone that God allows men to be their own "god" as they have desired and they would rather suffer consciously, eternally, rather than to submit to God whom they despise. God's gifts are without repentance and so it is with the gift of life (existence).
Way too much qualification and disclaimer bloviation.
You have said CI cancels out UR but what if only some like the worst of the worst gets CIed and the rest get URed? Another question: does CI happen at physical death or is there some 'punishment' before CI?
Interesting that Sodom and Gomorrah is used as an example of annihilation. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah where burned alive, for some it wasn’t quick, probably hid in the homes and where cooked alive, they also watched their loved ones in terror, the screaming, agony of the horror is minimized. Think trapped in twin tower 911. Also remember the building where eternally annihilated but saying the people where is begging the question
Mark 9:43-44 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Hell is eternal, never ending punishment for the enemies of God. They have no rest day or night eternally.
According to Isaiah, the unsaved will be destroyed by maggots and cremated by fire.
✴ _“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched….”_ (Isaiah 66: 24, NIV) (Jesus, talking about Gehenna, quotes Isaiah at Mark 9: 48)
There is support for each of those 3 scripture for the annihilationism side. The wages of sin is death', not eternal torture...
So basically hell is for undying worms in the end lol. All these people branching off creating their own theology and books just to cope with the fact they might burn forever.
Preston, I appreciate your approach to difficult topics and your willingness to talk about controversial subjects. I must hold to the position that Hell will be eternal and I base this on multiple factors. I understand your looking back into the OT to pull metaphorical terms however we cannot isolate those verses and forget the words that Jesus used. Before going on let us look at Mal 4:1-6 and the use of the word "ashes." When we die and are buried we all return to our original base which is dirt although it does depend on the quality of your casket. Therefore, from the metaphysical standpoint, we do not possess our earthly body in heaven so why would someone have a body as we know it in Hell. Matthew 25:46 we see the phrase eternal punishment and eternal life. The same Greek words in the New Testament (aion, aionios, aidios) are used to express (1) the eternal existence of God (1Ti 1:17; Rom 1:20; Rom 16:26); (2) of Christ (Rev 1:18); (3) of the Holy Ghost (Heb 9:14); and (4) the eternal duration of the sufferings of the lost (Mat 25:46; Jude 1:6). The idea that the "second death" (Rev 20:14) is in the case of the wicked their absolute destruction, their annihilation, has not the slightest support from Scripture, which always represents their future as one of conscious suffering enduring forever. (Easton) One cannot get past the fact that God has clearly drawn the line of good and evil, the moral and the immoral. In ref to Matthew 25:26, why would we have an everlasting reward and not have everlasting punishment? Anyway, I enjoyed the video and look forward to watching more.
Couldnt agree more!
I think you're misunderstanding what an annihilationist believes about Matt 25:46. The majority of them will agree that eternal means exactly what you say here but the contention is with the word "punishment". Annihilationists believe that the punishment is eternal but that the nature of the punishment is death and not torment, as the Bible repeatedly affirms. This does seem like the more natural reading of Matthew 25:46 for two reasons. 1. The Greek word translated as punishment can mean either Corporal punishment or Capital punishment, it had a wide range of meaning and writers of antiquity used it both ways. 2. The punishment stands in contrast to what the redeemed are given which is "life", so whatever the punishment is it mustn't involve life. It is therefore natural upon closer reflection to exegete the passage in the way a Conditionalist would. With all due respect, I do think that the claim that annihilation "has not the slightest support from scripture" reveals a ton of ignorance on the topic. You may disagree with their conclusion but to claim this shows you've never truly taken the time to understand what they believe. Anyways, All the best with your journey!