The FGC vs Saudi Arabia's E-Sports Takeover | E-Sports World Cup Controversy
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2024
- This is a very controversial and hot topic, but I had to weigh in. Let me know what you guys think about all of this in the comments section below.
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#fgc #esports #saudiarabia
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Unfortunately if you want big prize pools and big screen recognition, these are the devils you have to lay with. Either the FGC stays grass roots and does things on our own terms or it abides by the rules of engagement to be big and recognized. You want to get paid this is the price you have to pay. Simple as
You nailed it
So sell yourself to the devil for money.
100%
How they are the devils ? Respect other Countries laws, traditions and culture so we won't have any of this lame ass Drama if you support them rainbows it's too simple don't go there my guy saying there the devils what a joke
It won't split the community. There are bigger issues that Video game communities haven't stiod for or haven't been split over. LGBTQ is not even the last thing on the list that will finally do it because very few people in the world actually care about that stuff.
Exactly great take
It's literally not that big of deal if your supporting or one the Rainbow community don't go to Saudi Arabia that's it or you can go but respect their traditions and boundaries no Rainbow stuff done there everyone can get paid off especially if it's in Saudi well that's a Big Cash
Fgc wants more money in events but outside of SF6 Capcom Cup, they boycott all of them. The WePlay situation still annoys me. To each their own, but people gotta realize big money is usually involved with shady business
So called pro players are fine with playing SF6 where Sauidi’s have % in Capcom, SNK is owned by Saudi prince, but people are so hyped about new Fatal Fury. 2XKO is owned basically by Tencent, Chinese company, where China has a lot of history with violations of human rights. But when a tournament with big money is held on Saudi land - this is where they draw the line? Americans are really funny with their hypocrisy, while Call Of Duty literally has ties with Army and serves as a drafting psyop
It's not all Americans. It's the woke types. Those dumbasses making us look bad. Believe me, there's are Americans like me that see through the fuckery..
We can all agree that America does fucked up stuff, but what hegemon would you choose? :^)
@@Helios6031 as a Russian I know my country’s history and we are not an example of goody two shoes ourselves, but Americans with blue hair, pronouns telling everyone around the world how to live, while doing atrocious things for the last 50 years is beyond understanding
@@mrkarateman "telling everyone how to live" says the Russian who's country invaded mine 💀
you're hilarious dude
@@Daniel.Dionysus your president literally fucked around long time ago and now is finding it out. Now he is begging for European and US tax payers money while also forcefully drafting sick and old people and closing the borders so no one can leave. This comment section was never about you, but you are now making it one.
Shaheen will take over the world.
I don't think even the Saudis want that ☠️
@@RealMikeHollow Rashid?
@richiepoo lmaooo
Shaheen is a Persian word and name. Doubt the Arabs want to be associated with people they hate.
Hold on a Second .... Same-Sex Marriage is currently not allowed in Japan so why are all Japanese produced Fighting games not being boycotted ?
Check mate
Japan still supports lgbt rights for them to express themselves openly
Gay marriage would completely destroy any hope of rebounding birthrates
You're talking about marriage in Japan, we're talking about getting killed simply for being gay in Saudi
@@gamesonastick neither should be acceptable to them, doesn't matter of one is more extreme than the other.
It's 100% selective outrage and posturing. Notice how they waited for pride month to say any of this and are directly bringing up LGBTQ. Sonic Fox similarly flip-flopped on MikeZ during all the drama with him a few years back too despite being "friends" with him.
I can respect Sajam for wanting to keep it grassroots. I have zero respect for guys who just say things to look good in the moment. These are the same mfs who say they stand against slavery or exploitation of marginalized groups while playing on their iPhones and wearing Nikes.
Sonic Fox has been a flip flopper. He gets enough backlash from his gay overseers he will comply.
Sonic Fox is such an unlikeable person.
No ethical consumption under capitalism.
@jasonelbow3807 It's ok to have a change in opinion when presented with new information. But how the Hell are you a grown ass man who spends as much time on the internet as Sonic Fox and not know about the Saudi government? Saudi Arabia isn't a quiet little country tucked away in the corner of the world. It's a powerful, influential country whose corruption and human rights controversies have been hot buttons for years.
Bro is either stupid, trying to be a voice for things subjects he doesn't understand, or a liar.
Selective outrage is the way of the western world where consistent outrage is more towards the rest of the world. Media and culture is so controlled in some of those cultures that they collectively have more of the same ideas and ethics towards their ideals. The diversity in western societies is a blessing and a curse. You would have to live as a hermit or off the grid to fully live the ethical lifestyle some people preach. Pick and choose your battles and be aware of your limited choice options towards your beliefs and keep an open communication with your own limitations when coming into a difference of opinion with someone else.
This will be forgotten about in a few weeks like absolutely anything that goes through the social media pipeline. If Sonic and Sajam don't go someone else will.
ye, like what about that modders debacle? is it over?
Truly a stupid drama for literally no good reason at all as you said other will take the bag and the rest is history
If you wanna be a moral person, there is much more you can do in your immediate vicinity, like helping your neighbors, volunteering at a local shelter, donating to local drive or being active in your local community. The truth is, moral outrages like this on a global scale are only for people to grandstand on twitter, and get their easy moral virtue without having to do anything.
I mean if there is something going on, on a large scale, that you disagree with why can’t you voice your opinion? Why does it have to be some type of grandstanding? Why can’t I speak on things much larger than myself to get more and more people aware of it? Is that not in of itself an effective tactic?
@merikijiya13 I never said you can't, I said it's easy moral virtue.
@@foxmulder6695 “are only for people to grandstand on twitter.” The use of the word only here says there is no other way. Be more precise if you mean otherwise.
@merikijiya13 Believe what you want, I'm done talking to you.
Good to know I can't have an opinion on things
For me, I can't find a general moral framework to judge saudi significantly more harshly than uk/us. That being said, if you do feel that way 100% you should boycott AND do so publicly, it's not worthless, it's why we're considering the issue right now.
Well US doctors murder babies in the womb and cut children’s dicks off whilst their government is financially supporting a genocide on the palestinian people and have thrown a political revolution in Ukraine and are now using their entire population as a disposable human meatshield in their proxy war against Russia. Can you list any of Saudi Arabia’s crimes that are on a similar magnitude.
Ok 2nd serious comment. This may be controversial but here goes. I’m Muslim and my dad hasn’t had favourable opinions on Saudis. In fact he’s always been critical of the Muslim world in some aspects of life, my parents never had any problems with what other people choose to do with their sexuality.
Please, please do not assume every Muslim is your typical Middle Eastern and south Asian. My family personally couldn’t give a damn what you do with your life.
I understand, however the ummah is guided by the Koran, Haddith and fiqh. While your parents might have different views the majority of the Ummah and the writings they adhere to don't share those same views.
@@Peter-the-AngryExactly.
I am Christian, all over America and the west, you'll see "Christians that actively don't care about LGBT, support LGBTQ, or are LGBTQ+ themselves.
The Bible is completely against this, but they don't care... Beacuse they're Westernised.
Christian societies in Africa and South America, also Eastern Europe... It's much different there... Because the Bible is clearly against this, and if you're an actual follower of the religion, you will be as well
The issue is not with individual Muslims, it should be Islam as an ideology.
You make a very fair point, you judge people based on their character
@@sanderbaas945 Yeah, a persons personality is defined by everything they are, all virtues and vice
Including their sexuality
@sanderbaas945 It never was Islam as religion a problem, it was these new communities forcing there presence in each and every field literally jobs, gaming and ofc politics. If you do support these communities we could care less just don't go if you don't respect their boundaries or you can go earn some big cash without disrespecting their culture really simple it's a matter of respect.
So, weirdos are mad esports is gonna have some modesty and money injected? This is completely acceptable. I do not understand any controversy around this lmao.
Promoting a 'degeneracy month' where people go nude in front of children in public is abhorrent. There is no excuse for it.
If you wish to know more about the Saudi sportswashing situation, I highly suggest you follow the esports journalist Richard Lewis, who has mainly covered Counter Strike and FPS esports for a very long time. He has been closely monitoring Saudi sportswashing since the very beginning, and it has been a very big issue within the esports space for quite a long time now, even before the Esports World Cup. (Look at Blizzard with Overwatch 2 as an example.)
I firmly believe that games is supposed to be connecting everyone from all walks of life together sharing the same passion together as a whole community. With government money directly tied to the esports situation, it can potentially spark up unintentional consequences within the space entirely in the long run, where global politics might negatively affect esports as a whole.
Can second this as a long time viewer of RL. Very good coverage and very worth checking out for those that are interested, great content overall so def worth taking a peek at his other content outside of current Saudi sportswashing news and such.
Gee I could...
I’m pretty sure politics and divisive things already infest games. Thats why you see bs like blm and colorful rainbow shit in games. And let’s be real, the FGC wants to grow and be successful like other real sports. If it has to leave behind a few weirdos behind because they won’t be accepted in other regions, so be it. And yes, it’s very few. Insignificant is the correct word when you look at the numbers.
Richard Lewis was effectively excommunicated from the FGC after his self-defence episode, so I doubt a lot of the big names will give him a platform anymore.
Free Palestine
I know I never regret subscriping to your channel Mike. Love and respect from Saudi Arabia.
I've always been skeptical of anything Fgc related involving Saudi Arabia. After Qudans won the Tekken 7 True Gaming invitational. I wonder if he still hasn't been paid yet
He has in the end.
I swear I love people that don't live in countries talk about countries like they experts all of you are smoothed brain elite.
whos talking like theyre experts. you can learn about what other coutries are doing through the news. you know their are people that go to other countries and report news right?
We don't have to live in the country to know about the horrible shit they've been doing and using their oil money to cover up their dirty work.
I don't have to live in Germany to know about the Holocaust for example.
@@jasonnash4452and you do know a lot of the news you get back from them is propaganda. Heck even inside your country unless you are very close to what is going on the news will work its magic until it becomes unfeasible. Every country does it. Best way to know what is what is to get reporting from different sources from different places, learn the realities of the subject matter and put it together yourself.
He's right you should respect other Countries boundaries and laws that's it plus news dosen't show everything
I LOVE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN COUNTRIES TOO PEACE AND LOVE!
FGC when they discover cultures outside the US and Japan exist
because we forgot it exists in Korea UK Dominican Republic ect. I mean most of the strongest players in the FGC are not from the US or Japan. but why invite other cultures to your event that could possibly break laws just by being themselves.
bad take
@@alexandermccalla5098 cool beans
@@spectri1990 The US has absolutely no right to speak of this. It’s barbaric everything they did in the Middle East and push every degenerate act in society including allowing minors to transition. Their country, their rules. Forcefully shaping the world with YOUR American morals as if they were objectively good is egotistical.
What a ridiculous thing to say. You didnt even understand the first tweet
I understand some countries are worse with their rules and how they treat human life, but people definitely need to realize this is in every country that these governments are doing something disgusting that’s know long is everyday for their own amusement and financial growth. We all seen the writing on the wall when Esport’s took over.
Yup. Gotta do something about it, even if it is speaking out.
What happened to "respect other cultures and religions" ????
Saudi Arabia has a different culture to the West, but is it wrong to not be the same as the west?
Westerners often forget that other places exist with their own rules and regulations. Doesn't mean we have to agree with them, but our way of life isn't the only way and the moral grandstanding is ridiculous.
While i believe your correct in saying people who can go shouldn't feel bad about attending i feel as if excluding a group of people based off there identity or even putting those said people in harms way is way to big of a problem not to address, people should not live or die based off a governments whims for any reason, this goes for every government, and any rule enforced by the government that gives it blanket rule to kill/imprison people they disagree with, based off the type of relationship they have or how they wish to be seen is a government that needs to change.
Ended up throwing this up for Button Check but will repost it here because I think many have not looked into the subtleties around all of this. Another commenter mentioned Richard Lewis's journalism over the topic, and can certainly state he's a good source on this. He's a bit of a hotheaded, petty personality, but if you had to spend decades giving level headed ethics and economy takes to CS and LoL fans I think most would be that cynical.
The topic of the EWC is heated with a lot of bias so let's just establish facts:
No one with a reasonable mind is saying that the Middle East/West Asia doesn't belong in esports. It's been needed for players like AngryBird or those part of Tekken's Pakistani community to have events to call their own where they don't have to worry about things such as their visas let alone quality of life such as food being true to their culture. That is perfectly valid. It's also true that the FGC has been very much kept alive by grassroots and dedication and that the vast majority of players are extremely underpaid for what they provide. In addition you are perfectly ok to watch the event as well as competitors individually choosing to participate. Their financial situation is not of our concern, make that bag as long as you are safe, and for spectators watch if you want to, your viewership is inconsequential in the whole ordeal.
Being against the EWC is not being against the people of Saudi or of Islamic faith. It's against a regime's effort to pivot their country's funding by throwing a metric fuckton of money earned from oil distribution (which technology is slowly making obsolete on top of being a nonrenewable resource) into media and amenities not just in esports, but standard sports as well as film, tourism, game production, and television. All of which while also trying to hide numerous hate crimes and extremely crude and outdated laws against women and people of LBGTQIA+ backgrounds. WWE divas have to wrestle in XL+ mens shirts that cover their entire torsos and upper legs just to compete.
A bunch of involved organizations were handed a bag to pick up new teams to participate: Suddenly companies actually care about smaller game communities like the FGC, StarCraft, and even mobile games. They then also posted unlisted advertisements for the event guised as rosters news and hype videos, an act that not disclosing that they were sponsored being an illegal action in many of the countries they are based in. They are also offered a bonus for garnering the most amount of points at the event, which is easiest done by participating in every game possible, hence the niche sudden hirings even by organizations such as TSM which otherwise would be deemed running on fumes if not bankrupt based on recent actions.
This same funding source just dropped every DotA2 major besides their biggest event in TI and demanded paycuts for broadcast talent after buying ESL/FACEIT not long ago, showing they do not guarantee long term support for these competitions' security. Only to throw many darts at a dartboard and see what sticks. The companies hiring players for niche titles also have little incentive to keep them once the event concludes as they aren't consistent revenue. Just throwing money at the screen doesn't create success. It needs foundation, it needs grassroots, it needs healthy communities and paced, *consistent* funding with a passion for the project.
Countries such as Canada and Slovakia have stated that players participating are NOT guaranteed safety for the event, and contrary to the prejudice of faith arguments: Israel has stated close working with Saudi's governing parties to ensure safety. Many other countries simply have not even stated whether or not it is considered a safe event for all competitors. What good is an "esports Olympics" if some of the best of their respected practices can't participate? Games listed aside, players like SonicFox, UMISHO, Cuddlecore, and countless other women and LGBTQIA+ folk are at risk to even attend.
I'd much rather see another dozen events like TampaNeverSleeps or onboarding events like Sajam's Slams to bolster the FGC than short term frivolous events like the EWC that offer a lot to gain for a few, but with no long term security both physically and in finance. Happy Men's Mental Health Awareness and Happy Pride to those who celebrate. Be safe out there.
If you are not in the LGBT then of course you will not feel anyway about it since it won't affect you. When something doesn't affect you, it is easy to be desensitize about it.
Even if you aren't part of the Pride community, women still have a fraction of equality in Saudi, and a government funded monopoly that has already shown they are fully willing to pull out the second the event wasn't a total success is not sustainable.
@@pyrrhos8175 sorry a fraction of equality??
Tell me more about that
@@ixold Women of Saudi Arabia are still fighting for rights of independence from acts of domestic violence and marriage and freedom of expression even to and including the livelihoods of their own children, and outspoken individuals living there fighting for said freedoms are often jailed. It's true that they have recently gained some benefits such as the ability to drive or travel without a masculine escort (under certain conditions), but this is far from ideal.
They are islsmic. Religion dicates government policy. Its just how its is. Cant expect people to change their spiritual beliefs. It sucks for your guys but you cant expect everyone to be on board with controversial beliefs.
That's a lie you clearly dont know the history of Saudi Arabia
their house there rules why is that so hard to comprehend
Sharia law exists there. That's like saying you're okay with Leroy levels of war crimes. Shit Leroy's a goddamn saint.
Yea it’s their house their rules buddy. Yes sharia law is ok because it’s a cultural institution in a muslim country which is a country I have no interest in living in but it’s called respecting the boundaries of others.
Games are for everyone numbnuts
@@Helios6031 it ain’t that deep dude don’t like the rules don’t go there i can promise you ain’t no saint either so why try so hard to get on moral high ground
I dunno, to me it's like, imagine you're a kid, and you always hang out with your homies and game and have a great time at your house, and then suddenly some other kid comes along and is like "I have all this awesome great stuff that's way better and the kind of thing you've always wanted, but some of your friends aren't allowed to come, I actually hate those friends and I'll get my older brother to beat the shit out of them if they even show up," and this kid makes it his mission to get EVERYONE to come over to his house to the point where he wants it to be the main spot, where everyone goes, the other spots made irrelevant.
Would you be cool with just saying "Yeah sorry guys you're my homies but in this instance I'm just looking out for me, you guys aren't allowed and I'm going."
I dunno, maybe you would, but I wouldn't throw my homies away and make them feel like shit and exclude them and go hang out with the kid who wants them beat to shit.
Maybe a little weird to compare something like human rights to childhood bullies but I feel like the same kind of logic can apply. People don't want to send the message to their peers that they don't care about them and they're gonna get that bag and have fun in the big tournaments without them.
Their house their rules, yeah, but if it's shitty rules then why even go to the house?
I'm from Saudi Arabia, born and raised! Recently got into the FGC after playing FPS and MOBAs for a while.
Honestly, the amount of negativity online is a bit surprising. It feels like some people haven't gotten the memo that it's 2024, not the 1950s!
I have great friends from all around the world I've met a lot interesting people. I know a lot of gay people here and some of them are happily married nobody harassed them or killed them. Women are not repressed and doing much better than women anywhere else.
Here's the thing - everyone deserves respect, no matter where they're from. I wouldn't dream of telling someone in the US how to live their life, even when I lived there for three years. It's about respecting cultural differences.
Respect goes both ways, though. If you visit another country, it's important to be mindful of their customs and laws. It's just like being a good guest!
PS, please stop turning everything into politics we as citizens anywhere in the world have no saying over the law. Our lives are short, don't waste it on thinking about things that are out of your control.
The Saudi prince gave us sf6 Mai and cotw B Jenet could care less about esports😂
I mean...not really worth it but w/e
First, SF does not have a game in the ESW he could competently compete with i.e SF6 or T8. Second, Sajam has this "image" he likes to protect because his livelihood depends on it.
The Saudis don't bend or fold ❤❤❤❤ 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿 nothing but respect for them in most situations.
Agreed
@@sheercold26💪🏿
we will see once you are bending to their knees, but stay respectful my friend.
Even during 9/11?
@@faaltov they wasn't Saudi, you must be American 🤣
takeovers like saudi esports are literally never good, regardless of their moral issues. those just make it worse.
also, of course there's a difference between a government directly funding something and a government black budgeting something. saying those are equivalent is moronic.
Finally someone with a rational take holy shit, june always makes twitter a cesspool
Extremely sensitive topic to tackle for sure. I respect anyone who stands for what they believe in. It takes a tremendous ammount of courage to do so and courage is a virtue that has been lacking in our world lately.
A question for you Mike: What do you think about major FGC tournaments making a rule that you only get to pick 1 character and you have to stick to that character for the entire tournament? No character switching whatsoever.
The reason I ask is because yesterday I was watching the last qualifier for MK1 Final Kombat, and I saw Honeybee (a renowned Reptile loyalist) go through the tournament using the same team. So it inspired the question. I believe it would make things interesting although I can also see drawbacks from it. But I would love to hear your take on it.
Stay classy and much love and respect brother. 💪🔥
Didn’t Saudi Arabia decriminalize homosexuality a while ago?
You can’t stop individuals from treating other people like crap.
Yeah, this topic is really relevant. Voices in the industry claim about "Poverty FGC E-sports", yet would have it remain so because of international ideologies.
Shame, but it's a bitter pill to swallow. There is no utopia, no perfect world. Sometimes you just have to compromise. If Saudi Arabia is willing to fund the community if no one else will, people dont get to sit on their high horse.
What most people don't understand is that everyone has different line of thinking and a line between right and wrong and this goes for everyone, even in the same growing circumstances. So when they face someone that have a completely different way of living and thinking they call him stupid or a bad person which doesn't make any sense when you think about it.
Thank God there is people with a constructive overlook on the whole subject too many people cannot look at the subject objectively and realise that everyone can be right in what they say or believe in the only issue is when they act like their country is on a moral high ground than the other country like in this example USA and Saudi Arabia but they don’t even mention that the Saudi and US government are deeply align with each other in the worlds retrospective anyways and it’s only issues that don’t matter in the grand scheme of things like lgbt where these sides disagree on same thing can be said about the World Cup in Qatar to and the UK loads of people were cussing it here but fly British airways and go to shops like sainsburys which have heavy Qatari investments involved to they all in bed with each other if you really deep it to an extent 🤣
If there were people going to events supported by a government that had laws against black people, I would not only look at them different but I would also openly criticize them. If you believe gay people should have rights but support countries who don’t then you should feel bad, you’re putting your morals aside for money.
Can we just compete with skills and muscle memories in sport event or even game event? Already fed up about "not muh politics" or "you all need to see muh politics" especially by westerners lately. Be proud to be able to compete to represent your own country/nation than your own only politics. Take a cry when you lose to stronger player and fist up to the air when you can overcome the stronger player.
Im down for it. Competition needs to happen. I honestly hate the way e sports has gone. Maybe Competition will make why i feel in love with the fgc come back
I understand not wanting to go, but i don't see the point of announcing it on twitter other than virtue signalling, you're tweet isnt changing anything, you're just letting us know you're virtue signalling
Agreed. I think they do it to sway their followers or have some kinda influence over their decision making. Personally, I don't have a problem with it. People can say and do what they want, it just comes across as hypocritical to me.
I think it does something, as long as you're not toxic about it, just announcing your boycott can have a ripple effect in your beliefs' favor. No matter which side you're on.
I seen this on B.C and thought to myself " AWWW SHUT UP AND PLAY!!"
It comes down to your values. I can see where you're coming from but personally it wouldn't sit right with me. I couldn't endorse something I disagreed with, explicitly or otherwise, no matter the payday. At the end of the day money and possessions are transient. All you can truly own are you convictions and following through on them. Incidentally, I absolutely think Joel was in the wrong but again it's subjective.
nobody should be over there, but they all go.
no ethical consumption in late stage capitalism, and all that.
Good objective outlook. Discussions are how things change imo. Not outrage
Either a young and dumb kid doing silly things or a selfish adult. Everyone does bad things. This is no different. Life is not fair and never will be.
I get what you're saying but "the world is a terrible place, just accept it" is kind of a shit take ngl. If you discriminate anyone regardless of race, gender, sex/orientation, or religion that automatically makes you in the wrong. I don't care if it's "part of your religion", you treat people how would would want to be treated. I bet you'd feel some sort of way if someone's religion told them that a trait you had made you seen as less than. Everyone deserves dignity and human rights.
I never said accept it. I said Sonic and whoever can stand for what they believe in, but at the same time, you're not going to change their minds and that's their home. I don't accept the way a lot of people behave in their homes or countries and so I don't go. For me it's a "what can I do Vs what can't I do" and these gamers can't sway the Saudis in their beliefs because they hold those beliefs very close to their chests.
You never have to accept anything in life but you do have to realise where you are and who you're talking to/if you're fighting a lose battle.
@@RealMikeHollow You're right but "it is what it is" just rubs me the wrong way. This whole thing just reminds me of the Moclans from the show The Orville. But yes, you can change their minds by not paying any attention to their events/give them money. But the world governments are basically sucking on their toes for oil so it's really hard for them to get any sort of message. My point still stands that everyone deserves dignity and human rights tho.
Where to begin… having beliefs and personal convictions if any is fair but virtue signalling about not supporting Saudi’s support for Israel is wildly hypocritical if it’s the only thing that offends complainers sensibilities, granted there are two sides to this “war”. Where was the boycott for the poor treatment of women? Where was the boycott for the regular persecution of lgbt people? Where was the boycott for Kashoggi? Where was the boycott for the missing Saudi Princess? Where was the boycott for modern slavery practices? Everyone was comfortable entering Saudi tourneys until the current fad had them moving like sheep. If complainers stood on business and had minds of their own they wouldn’t have entertained Saudi in the first place. And even then, Saudi isn’t the only country in the world with dirty hands.
If you want to go, go. If you don’t, don’t. If you are blocked from going for whatever reason, count your blessings, you don’t need to go there and kiss ass for money. They’re not forcing you to go to their country under duress.
Look as much as I don’t like Saudi Arabia as a Muslim man. People gotta learn to respect their rules as the people in West would expect the same from people visiting western countries. Americans especially have this habit of pushing their beliefs on other countries.
Man, I wish there were a better way to engage in a long form conversation about this one. I’m really one of the biggest fans of your approach on things, agree or disagree, and I feel like there’s so much to really cover on a subject like this. From political to philosophical. There’s some really great points, and a few big misses in here, but I always respect you for speaking your thoughts, no matter what. We’ll see how it all pans out.
Your going into someone home so respect their rules or don’t go, just someone coming over to your house rules your way or go home. What don’t you understand. These new fgc players are crybabies.
1. It is an obvious logical fallacy to look at other bad things and think "ah can't boycott/change everything, why do it in the places I care about and have energy/time for".
At the end of that illogical road you take money from the Devil himself ( not because it is life or death, just wealth) .
Having no limits to who yoz take money from would mean you take money from a country who is actively at war against your own people. Why not ? It is bad all around the world.
2. Gaming is the biggest Entertainment on the planet. Sure esports is only a small part of it. But overall it dwarfs other sports that the Saudis took over like Golf or WWE.
Also: nice hostage (!!) situation for WWE Stars at a saudi airport.
3. If something is not taken over already by a government why roll over and accept if they try to do it ? Why welcome it ? No problem with Saudi arabia politics and help their sports washing? Why not try get the US or UK fund esport tournaments to try and wash their warmonger record while your at it ? Nothing wrong with that for a few bucks.
4. The point seems to be to spread awarenes and not be complicit in any regime of war criminals taking over esports.
You know the US army tried their luck with streaming on twitch? They got owned and trolled in chat, "what is your favorite US war crime?".
Until they fucked off.
Qatar Football world cup was also boycotted a lot in the west and people spoke about modern day slavery in Qatar during that time. There were also documentaries being shown on that topic during the time.
It will be a good opportunity to highlight saudi human rights violations ( unless you dont care about human rights ) and saudi warmongering in yemen.
5. Esports didnt need Saudis or (any direct government Sponsors washing their reputation with it)before to exist. It wont need it in the future if they are not accepted by the audience/fans/players/orgs long time, beyond 1 huge event series.
6. Sure you can support whatever you want. Just dont expect people to not point out that hands giving you the money are soaked in blood of civilians if it is the case.
Doesnt get any less blood soaked just because "but what about other criminals running other countries" because they are not official direct sponsor of esport events. The 'what about all other problems of the world stuff" is very convenient and true. But not really a good argument that leads anywhere good ever.
No progres would ever be made or bad change prevented if it stopped at "but it is bad all over the world. Cant change/boycott/prevent everything".
Ethical consumerism is useless as a means of affecting change.
I think it was a well-worded and funded take on things, Mike.
The one thing rhat would divide a community such as the FGC is when people force each other to support their stance. People are free to make rheir own considerations and choosing A does not mean you oppose B.
Why dont Americans knock?
Because Freedom Rings.
*insert Helldivers gif*
Good video, and this topic is thought-provoking. I agree that people should act in their own self-interest and I don't have an issue with people standing on their principles. I also think it's good that people are educating themselves about how all governments around the world operate.
If I were in a situation to play in a tournament and make a large sum money, I would most likely go myself, no doubt. On the flip side I do understand why people have concerns.
To jump into the nuance for a sec, with quick research we all can easily draw a direct line from the Esports World Cup to the Saudi Arabian Royal Family. They're not exactly hiding it. That would be the equivalent to Evo or Combo Breaker being funded directly by the White House, which obviously they're not. With this being said, simply saying: "well western government have done terrible things too" might be oversimplifying this specific scenario, imho. But the end of the day, I see both sides.
P.S. Not to call anybody out here, but if anyone is taking a Moral High Ground related to human rights through a tweet using a phone or a computer.... they might also want to do some research how that device was made. The irony.... Just saying.
I think people are misunderstanding that yes the US has done awful things but it’s not using esports and the government isn’t funding these FGC tournies and if they were people like sajam would turn that down too as he said he already did something like that.
FGC was built and funded by fans and individuals not governments pushing propaganda
it feels like selective internet activism, i dont stand for any discrimination or hatred or whatever, and if sonic cant go cause hes gay then thats fucked up. its as you said, its, its not going to change anything and they accept a lot more questionable things because not doing so would be too much of an inconvenience... as long as its doesn't intefere with the priviliged lifestyle, being outraged or boycotting is easy
It sucks for them not thinking they’re welcome but I will say that people in the lgbtq community and the wider community continue to overestimate how many people are actually like them.
Power move would be to go to the tourney, win the money, and use it to fund pro-lgbt events
is it too much to ask to keep politics out of the fgc? or literally anything? stop ruining any ounce of fun with self righteous grand standing for once and just shut up and have fun. whatever happened to showing strength in the face of adversity? showing up somewhere where you know you're not wanted or welcome because you think it's wrong and you want to show that you are brave in the face of such hatred? nowadays it's just cry and whine and woe is me aren't i oppressed, forever a victim. happy omg i'm so oppressed month everybody!
It's also easy to say you don't care bc you're not being discriminated again. And the "if you don't like it go home" shit is a logical fallacy that skirts by legitimate criticism of govt policies and where the money from these events come from
I think every player has to make the best decision for themselve and family and stop worrying about what some people u dont know in the FGC think or say about your decision if sonicfox and sajam don't want to play or work with ESW cool but that wouldn't stop me from trying to improve my life and my fam life FGC is going to learn business is business
How hard is it to be grateful some one is willing to pay for people to play video games? Just play, take the money, be a good guest and talk all the rubbish you want at home.
So Some “pro” players prefer balls over chance of making money. Crazy 😂
Shout out Saudi Arabia
That tweet translation was surprisingly pretty accurate. I don't agree with it however.
You seriously think people only boycott one thing at a time?
I went into this video cautiously since i respect you and i don’t want you to be on the extremest side but glad you are neutral about it, so you gained more of my respect man
I happen to watch a lot of games on Ewc, and one thing for certain is that Saudi is a "modest" country. Public sexual affection is forbiden on everyone, not just for the non heterosexual. You just need to be respectful on peoples culture and rule, that's it. As far as i see the "muslim" law is not being applied to non-muslim. Team Liquid even allowed to use their rainbow logo which is in the context is really massive, also in other game there is a Turkish player with nickname Rosa, and he is gay and his real name is Ahmet. There is also a full woman only tournament, and we also know that a lot of the game in the Ewc is pro Lgbt with their character design and lore wise. For example LeagueOfLegend is full of Lgbt character, and they allowed to be the part of Ewc. I don't said that Saudi gouvernment is clean and perfect but come on, the west is not perfect, asia is not perfect. Plus by the muslim law, video game is kinda forbiden and bad. It is full of gacha which is bad, full of violence which is bad, profanity which is bad, it is also mostly waste of time which is bad, and so on and so on. Bro those pro player should be dead now if what people say about The Saudis is true 😂
It's their country they can do whatever they want and quite frankly, their take on the lgbtq situation is much better than ours in the West. It's gone too far. These organizations aren't disallowing people from competing just because of their sexual preference They don't want flamboyant bullshit. Sonic Fox is whining about this because he has made his entire personality centered around his sexuality.
Feng Wei Detected. Opinion Becoming Less Rejected
Please accept the Feng delegation *bows head*
@MikeHollow Love your take dude, you said it well my man! You are totally right when it comes to other countries; people just assume b/c in America if you aren't inclusive you get heat and things can change, so to speak. Other places in the world aren't like that, it's okay if somewhere isn't welcoming to a group of people. I know it will be a hot take but even if a country is racist for example I still believe they should be allowed to be able to have their own rules about how their country is; it's up to the people of the country itself to change it's ideals, beliefs, and rules. You can't expect others to be accommodating to everyone, life isn't fair and you can never make it. The way I look at it if they don't want me there then okay cool, i'll go somewhere else. No harm no foul!
It’s just basic human decency you shouldn’t try to impose your way of life on others. The US is learning that lesson the hard way as their country descends further and further into chaos with one failed war/cultural revolution after another.
by that argument i shouldnt go to any tournament held in the USA, the US is arguably the biggest culprit of human rights abuses
I swear FGC celebs are the most hypocritical and whiny little brats to ever touch the E-Sports scene. Saudi only seems to be a problem when they gotta play over there, but if the tournament is hosted anywhere else they'll happily turn the other cheek. Saudi has a stake in SF6, SNK is owned by a Saudi noble, so where do they ACTUALLY draw the line? Because they can't bring their politics to another country its suddenly a problem?
Why is the FGC political to begin with? The hell do politics have to do with fighting games?
the US has definitely done worse things than saudi arabia and it’s not even close 😭😭
Ill tell you one thing, nothing will fucking change, if you boycott this.
Lets have a Saudi vs Israel e-sports tourney
the problem with the US doing terrible things argument is the US goverment isnt directly hosting these events. the saudi government is.
So when US governments host these events you better have the same amount of out cry to cause what’s the difference
I'm confused. Are LGBT people forbidden from playing in Saudi-funded esport organizations or not? If they're not, and they're just choosing not to play for principle then fine. Just let me know, disregard my following text and have a good one.
But if they are banned from playing... then let's be real what that'll be like. A Saudi funded Guilty Gear tournament (or really any fighting game, but especially anime fighting games) with no LGBT players would be as about as exciting and meaningful as watching NBA finals with no black players. Saudi Arabia totally has the right to let their own beliefs water down their esports scenes if, again, LGBT players are indeed banned.
It’s kinda hard to argue that this isn’t fence sitting lol
It's not hard to argue that. The governments in question are bad. Some openly admit they're doing unjust things, others use the media to spread lies and paint it up like everyone else is bad. It's simple really.
Isn't this just a continuation of what's been going on with regards to 'conventional' sports for decades? We live in a world in which nation-states are engaged in a global capitalist rats' race for wealth, prestige and power, a symptom of which, alas, is that nation-state governments pour copious sums of money into the sponsorship of international sports events, and use that patronage to deflect attention away from their atrocities, and whitewash their reputations on the global stage. Video games are increasingly becoming an international sport, which, given the kind of world that we inhabit, means that, at some point, nation-state governments will enter the picture, and will use financing of international video game competition to launder their reputations in the same way that the same way that they done with respect to 'traditional' sports for generations.
This is selective outrage at its finest
Video games! Let's just play video games! And to think the US are angels in international conflicts... come one.
Great video. Fake grandstanding by weirdos who want their lifestyle respected but dont want to respect others right to not want it around them. Respect to saudi to not caving in to the weirdos . Just look at us in america what we've given into and see where it got us.
One must sieze happiness for themselves regardless of the sorry state of the world.
Laws are laws so many of the are harsh but thats the way it goes. Same time by 24/7 complaining about SA youre almost saying "you cant host tournaments because were not welcome". Not very fair when theres a global FGC. Not fair for players like Raef to have a tourny there hmm. Always annoying to being politics to games. A lot of us use them to escape worlds troubles and phase out of reality rather than remain in it.
I was honestly shocked at how well though out this video was. I 100% that Saudi is allowed to do what they want its there country. The points made about the US and UK government are also spot on, and as a US citizens (born and raise) i view my government as a terrorist organizations because they currently fund 4 different genocides in the world and ate actively trying to start world war 3 with China and Russia. Its disgusting and ive tried my nest to boycot as much as i can myself. Saudi's goverment ia somwthing i really dont like ether, but at least there is some logic to it as they use religon to govern. The west claims its all logic, but its clear they make policy based on religion and the wills of the elite. We as people cant do much outside of boycott and vote. At least i see Saudi doing something somewhat positive with their money, where in the west, our money doesnt even get used to help our citizens, and is used to fund more death and destruction across the world. It is 100% selective outrage.
I do apologize for my comment, however "Do You Know The Way" back on topic I do agree with the video, Let many fallow their dreams to compete for that money as that money can help someone mother. If one decides withdraw from the prize pool due to their beliefs that is perfectly understandable but others who are able to go and will go will fallow their dreams for that currency. Remember that most people only care about where the currency is and how to obtain it.
Exactly what I said on button check damn you put it right damn
The gambling fanatics from the deserts knew what can be exploited from lighting games.
I don't like the government of every nation because politicians are corrupted. Now the belief system in Islamic nations is different and that's just the way it is. People from the UAE are actually really nice and welcoming if you're not pushing beliefs that are sinful in islamic culture you won't have any issues. Also, it's not like everyone running the tournament is cool with the physical harm of lgbt people. It's a religious thing it's not for us to tell others how to live.
I think the money is great for the bif scene but it wont overtake grass root locals and combo breaker stuff. But anything for the big players to get their bread. I understand the issue for non straight people. Its not super welcoming but if you win you win ya feel?
Mmm, respect that opinion, mate
Wow way to have no back bones. Sad
Someone tell Sonic Jesus is the way. Not the alphabet people.
Come on bro let’s not be corny now. SonicFox can do what SonicFox wants as you do what you want. But trynna act like bein gay is some great evil jus cuz its not the status quo is both delusional and dangerous.
Religious differences n connotations aside, Jesus would tell you to turn the other cheek to somn like that no? 🤔
@@TheCentralSwanks I never said it was evil. The Bible doesn't say that either. It says that separates you from God
Maybe I care about his salvation.
@@JPROP-vb7sv And that's odd to most people. That's where the negative connotations about religious people come from. Not everyone is trynna be "saved". If you do that's cool, but you can't care about SonicFox's afterlife more than they care. It's not fair to you or them. (If they care at all lol) I'm just gonna avoid diving into the Bible's various hypocrisies because it does offer guidance in a meaningful way to many around the world and it's not my place to do that. Jus plz don't try to use the bible in a practical setting because idealized stories are just that. Stories. Life is real I'm sorry to tell ya n people are more complex than pages written a thousand years ago. It's jus how it is.
@TheCentralSwanks If your at all interested, you should read a book called More than a Carpenter . You can back up historical facts about Bible stories from various other books written throughout history. For example the flood. The Egyptian times, and many others.
Hope you have a blessed day.
@@JPROP-vb7sv See? That's why people aren't fans of religion anymore. I've studied Muslim and Judaeo-Christian beliefs back in college. You can't jus say "read a book" like that actually means something. Just say "my bad I may have been insensitive" and move on. Instead of trying to take the moral high ground all the way to the final word. It's disheartening tbh. You take care.
iight mike clash of the castle who you got?
Great points made in this video
look i will use some common sense here about Sonicfox said " and no if they annocuned one for mk1 i would not go im literally gay i cannot even if i wanted to"
like bro u said it yourself gamers8 invited u lmao. he will be fine if he go there
I have an exact mirror imagame of all of your points and get downvoted to hell on reddit, or attacked on discord lol
Just sounds like its about personal morals. To me, my family comes first before anyone else and if i get hate for it then thats fine. We simply agree to disagree.
Agreed 👍
good afternoon mike
Blood money
why are you gay?...😎
His stupid opinion on Israel actions doesn’t help him. I mean currently of all the wars going on Israel’s defence and rescue of citizens from an attacks of over 2000 terrorists is justifiable. Clearly innocents hurt or worse isn’t good but that’s every war. Intentions matter and he’s ignoring intentions. I know he talking about Saudis but he still threw that stupid comment in.
This is the disconnect of the west where you think that the opinion of less than 15% of the world is the opinion of everybody. His opinion in Israel will help him immensely because that's literally the opinion of over 85% of the world.
Lmao okay bro
This shit didn't start on 07/10/2023, however much you hasbara fanatics pretend otherwise.
2000 “terrorists” who had their land stolen and their families murdered for the last 80 years. When the US went to war with the indians at least they had the decency to not pretend to be the victim on the global stage. Israeli propaganda is fucking pathetic.