How the Joker Became Political
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- Sign up for Skillshare: skl.sh/thetake69 | Joker (Joaquin Phoenix) was 2019's most politically controversial movie, but the Joker himself wasn't always such a political figure. How did the Clown Prince of Crime evolve into one of the most potent and divisive symbols of our time? What are his politics, and who exactly is he speaking to? If you like this video, subscribe to our channel or support us on Patreon: / thetake
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The Take please please please do a series or a video on the show Mr. ROBOT it is one of the best shows of the last decade
Mic Check Monday
Yo, Mr Robot is legit
Would like an analysis of the protagonist of 'You' and how the audience is supposed to feel about them. Thank you!
Right now not you or anyone would pay me any mind when you see me suffering. If I beg for help or beg for even recognition, I would not be heard. The point of this new Joker film is missed by anyone who isn't suffering through life. He was sick of suffering being treated like shit, so he tool matters in to his own hands. I'm sure you know the difference between being a child and an adult. Childhood is worshiping of Batman the hero of Gotham City. Adulthood is when you realize The Joker is right. How many will read go right in by and not give fuck? Plenty. But as soon as I get sick of being on, I get portrayed as the bad guy.
The Take watch the film again
The ironic thing is, in the movie, Arthur killed those guys because they were awful, not to start a movement. It was the media, as you can see in the newspapers shown, that warped the whole situation into a movement.
It's so meta, I love it
It wasn’t the media that warped the narrative. They just fanned the flames of political unrest in Gotham by airing clips of Wayne calling the revolutionaries “clowns”. The movement had already begun, the media just helped the fire spread by trying to defend the rich.
when people try to turn a simple act into a political statement trying to find a deeper meaning behind his actions then your just pulling shit out of your own mouth
Lazer Luche I love how Society likes a movie that criticizes society.
Situational irony
I love how systematically everyone try’s to avoid talking about the joker from suicide squad 😂
Because no one like Jared Leto's role as the Joker. But at least he's a great actor since Paul Allen from American Psycho.
There isn't really anything to talk about. People use the character as a punching bag, but his only appearance really only served as an introduction. Jared Leto is a gifted actor, and I honestly think he could have done something interesting with the part.
@@poweroffriendship2.0 Yes, he was good at being killed.
@@poweroffriendship2.0 His only good role was probably in Requiem For A Dream although I think that directing was the key factor. Honestly overrated especially regarding his hubris.
@@poweroffriendship2.0 I did
Why in all analysis of the Joker people forget to mention his mental illness? He used to be on SEVEN medications and therapy. That wasn’t enough to make him healthy but it was keeping him functional. Than he is abruptly taken off those medications and the therapy by government cut backs. That is mentioned several times through out the movie. He was severely abused as a child and the scene where he finds that out is a very important part of the movie because it’s when he seems to go completely of the rails. I think people are trying so hard to identify with the Joker or to search what segment of society he represents that they skip these very important elements of the movie. The Joker says it himself: he is the result of the cross of a MENTALLY ILL loner with a society that abandons him and treats him like trash.
All of the internet's analysis of Joker didn't ignore his mental illness though.
You're so right! The so-called critics just missed that completely when the scene where he runs with the file and finds out the truth is one of the heartbreaking scenes in the entire film.
Everyone forgets the mental health and cutting of social welfare and healthcare aspects of the film.
Because being mentally Ill makes you more likely to be the victim of crime vs the perpetrator. It's a false narrative to say he is a criminal _because_ he is unwell
@William Loudermilk that isn't an actual argument and being mentally unwell isn't an excuse. But yes actually. Statistically speaking it's more likely crimes of passion/opportunity or revenge intrapersonally. The outliers aren't even mentally unwell. Being a psychopath isn't something treatable. Ted Bundy wouldn't be cured. He has a defect that makes him manipulative and lack empathy. He isn't the schizophrenic who hears voices and gets beat up and then back on his meds.
Being victimized is more likely to send you into yourself with PTSD
" It takes a village to raise a child...The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down just to feel its warmth.”
--Common Sense
That is really the underlying message of the film. He is the forgotten man. The ignored man. Even the underpaid psychologist is just doing her job like a forgotten person too by asking prearranged approved questions. It is a story about how a materialistic and uncaring society can be very damaging for those at the bottom. He has no joy in his life. By becoming the Joker he projects the falsehood of most of the daily interactions we have in a highly unfulfilling market society. But in his actions he acts hyper-competitively and destructively.
@geekyfraulein There shouldn't be male children. That just perpetuates the problem of patriarchy.
Ben Reilly that made no sense but ok kid
@@norwegiansupermodel7512 geeky gets it
This dude really just quoted common sense😍
The film was warped by the media who lost sight of Todd Philip's message that we need more compassion
Also, the lesson about this movie is about showing respect to other people who is very kind. If you disrespect the wrong person like the Joker, there will be consequences.
I don't think any form of art has only one meaning or has only a group of messages to give. It's what you take from it. The main singer of TOOL Maynard James Keenan says about the song "Stinkfist": "If you dig a little deeper to the song you'll see there are new ways to interpret. But if someone really things that the song is about fist-fucking, that's okay. That's who they are."
@@poweroffriendship2.0 I wouldn't say this is a warning over consequence, as much as a reminder of history. French revolution style.
Also, compassion.
@@janugur2241 lol I feel that. Thank you. That's not how I see it but Alex Grey taught me how to dance and to see this world and I am forever grateful.
@@janugur2241 yeah actually that's a good point. I do think a lot of the critics emerged before watching the film but you're defo right
*How the Joker became Political:*
1. _Society made it Political_
Everything is political, its just a matter of perspective
100%, people made it political.
@@MarkFilipAnthony If everything is political, nothing is.
@@Gamerad360 everything that includes a lot of people is automatically political, as politics is about how to manage people
What isnt political is whats individual in the eyes of the individual, its personal view and behavour in isolation.
However in the perspective of the collective: individual thoughts can affect society if it is being picked up by the collective, and therefore be or become political
So yes and no, to your statment. Its a matter of perspective and use
@@MarkFilipAnthony your life must be so great if everything in it is political...
"He is the reflection of your own alienation." Damn that's insightful.
Not when you look at things from this channel’s perspective. And either way, it’s a fairly simply idea. Every outsider movie does this, from Taxi Driver to Carrie.
Aaron G loved that
They must smoke a big fat bone before writing these scripts.
The truest quote
Good point.
Just like his past, the Joker’s deeper meaning is multiple choice.
this!
Explain.
oleg jablonsky The Joker is many things, but static isn’t one of them. You can look at any of the multiple versions of him there’s been over the years and see a harmless clown, a cold calculating nihilist, a crazed maniac or something entirely different.
Just like he always changes his backstory, sometimes a reader or writer can characterize him one way, sometimes another. It’s all based on points of view. Whether or not that’s affected by comic book trends and sales is a different story.
IMO that’s been a huge part of his staying power, he changes and evolves with the comics he’s in and the people who read them. For better or worse.
@@christianfarren1179 so he's an archetype then
Tim Evans I’m with you, I don’t think that was ever part of the character.
Sure, he’s about causing disorder and chaos, but not because he feels the world owes him something. It’s because he enjoys it, it’s a set up to a punchline that only he can see.
I saw Joker 2019 as an opportunity to wrestle with the question, “What does it take to make a Joker?” Is it one bad day, or years of mental illness and abuse?
The whole “incel” debate IMO was just an attempt to get views, and a desperate one at that.
In the movie: Arthur Fleck was not political, the media made it so.
In the real world: Joker was not political, the media made it so.
Joker is political. Why make it about the Joker character if it has nothing to do with the Joker or what he represents?
Media make political because they see EVERYTHING as political.
@@Theyungcity23 Arthur says he isn't political, there's no reason for him to be political he's just having a bad day.
@@PopPopPopPop There's every reason for him to be political. "They think we won't werewolf and go wild." That's a call to action to group.
I think itss not than simple. We should first ask ourselves what do we mean by "political". Like I read or listen so many people talking about things when we haven't even talk about the subjects we are arguing. My "political" concept may or not be different from yours. Rather me or you are wrong (or even we are both right/wrong) I think it's just not correct to make such statements as "this is this" so lightly
*Original:* Joker fell into the the vats of chemicals and went insane.
*2019:* Joker got thrown into the toxic society and finally snapped out of it.
Okay. And?
Xclav
Hahaha why take it that way?
I originally thought the insanity of the joker would go in the wrong direction because the original just laughed and made puns, but this Joker is far from 1 dimensional
@Xclav But that's what happened in the film.
Messages In a bottle Interesting opinion. Joker was responsible for influencing a strike in Gotham’s society as well. Society can’t take full blame, but it still happens a lot.
I don't think this is a particularly deep/philosophical movie, the message is really simple: be kind to one another. We missed such an opportunity to treat this as a cautionary tale and learn from it.
Maybe not even "kind". Just "not gratuitously cruel". Arthur never condemns Murray for "not being kind", but he properly damns him for asserting that certain things are not to be joked about, while seeking laughter from the humiliation of the brain-damaged Arthur. Murray literally puts Arthur in a lower class of humanity, at least the way I see it.
The face value of the message is surface level, but it is a strong and effective approach.
It is against neoliberalism so of coirse its políticas. Its not about individual actions, its about the system and the role of the State. The thing about first world people Is that they are not concious about the colective but instead they thing everything Is about the individual actions. One great exampe is how they belueve thatcher global warning could be stopped if we just recycle paper. Or how you do not protest for the lack of free universities
Juana Abadie Bottcher but being kind to one another could be a good thing.. not?
@Messages In a bottle Well, most of us even if we understand that we do not have a place secure in the system dreams about being rich and part of the elite. However, the film portrays what at first glance seems as a personal tragedy (though it Is clearly provoked by the lack of States intervención), ends up being a collective protest against a system that excludes. What the Joker wants Is not important. What we should look at Is the causes of his fall and the reaction of society
This film isn't woke or neither political, it's a deep character study that turns out to be something truly special to appreciate.
ElRadioDJ913 everything is woke and political according to incels
It was very political. It's a film about a society shaped by modern day right wing policies, especially in the US.
1) Massive wealth inequality
2) Defunding of social programmes for counselling.
3) Inability to afford healthcare, again because of defunding
4) Guns in the hands of people that should not have them.
@@miniman2132 It's more of a criticism of everybody aka society as a whole, not just right wingers. What were the clown rioters in the film anyway supposed to be? Communists? They are left wing. The movie is a cautionary tale of society breaking down and the monsters it ends up creating.
Just Monika the riots are represent the unrest due to right wing policies which effects everyone. There is absolutely nothing in the film to suggest they are left or right wing .. and to say they must be left because it’s a violent mob sounds to me like you have just consumed a bit too much right wing propaganda on the subject.
I’ll agree that the film doesn’t entirely let the left off, when it comes to jokes you can’t tell, etc (despite the fact the Jokers “jokes” were unfunny and crass) .. but it’s kid gloves compared to the issue of wealth inequality and other harmful policies in the film.
@@miniman2132 How do you *know* those are specifically right wing policies when cities, especially multicultural ones always lean left? I think you're seeing shit that isn't there.
Joker criticizes society as a whole. The party who put those policies up is not important in the movie which is why it is never specifically stated. If you can say that the mob doesn't represent antifa and the hard left then I can say that the urban rich are not represented by the right.
In reality this is true as well: the 1% plays both sides. If you want to make this political then accept the message that Joker is giving you in full.
I always hated that people blamed the movie for being the thing that is the "reason" for people to do mass shootings, instead of trying to get to the core of the problem, why would any person relate to the joker, and if they do, what does that say about the society at large?
if a person is inspired to do violence, they couldn't have been sound in the first place
Thank you some one who agree’s! All I see are articles saying that will happen. I think they might have gone DOWN
Yet a machete brawl between kids happen at the Frozen 2 opening night and the media doesn't pat an eye guess because it isn't called Joker or just because they are hypocrites trying to get things to fit their narrative so they choose and pick .
@@LP1ToTheEndOfTime _ _ You are absoooolutely correct!
@@LP1ToTheEndOfTime Well the Joker did say : "Is it me or is it getting crazier out there?" I guess he's right
I have a speech impediment and the scene where he's on stage and can't physically deliver his jokes hit me so hard. I cried so hard in the theater. I've never had a movie hit me so hard and so unexpectedly. Even The King's Speech didn't get to me that way. It really hit me somewhere deep and painful.
i was about to cry at that scene as well
kiroro pupper, you are not alone.
I have a stutter since I was a little kid, and when I'm in front of a group, it gets worse. I saw The kings speech in a movie theater alone. Didn't stop crying after the first failed speech. I never realised how much pain it acualy caused me.
Especially when I get nervous.
Oh God yes, I have selective mutism (or something like that, I had to stop going to speech therapy before they confirmed) and I just had several flashbacks of me trying to speak, present a work in class, etc.... Even though it's a different thing I had to hold back my tears
"..it turn politics into one big joke" i like the conclusion
@Tim Evans I think Heath Ledgers Joker does a better job of illustrating the point of what Joker represents which is that there is no real order in the world despite what we are told by society in order to keep stability and keep people safe.
I read this comment exactly at the same time she said it
@EpicGta5&BTCTutorials yrd Nailed It.
I don't think the Joker was ever political. He became a political figure due to coincidence really. He was at the wrong place at the wrong time (with the subway murders).
"Do I look like the type of clown that could start a movement?"
He was the wrong person too , if he wasn’t mentally ill or medicated things might’ve ended differently , but see things ended badly and this mentally broken man ended up using what he could (hate,sadness and chaos) to put himself back together
Sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Joker is someone who wants more money for the poor. He doesn't care. His rant was about how hypocritical society is (as he mentioned with his rant about comedy being subjective). The Joker isn't a socialist who wants to be the leader of the movement, he is simply barking back at a society which beat him down to the point of insanity. There are definately political undertones in the film though, but to say that Joker is political is fallacious.
Shubro64
Yeah. I suppose how the original anarchism of the Joker is merged in this movie’s Joker. As if there’s nothing he could have done.
He’s mentally ill, ✅
Society beats him down, ✅
He snaps, ✅
Interesting origin that may or may not go deeper if you think about it. It is funny, was it just a coincidence? Is that all the Joker is?
@@PittsburghSonido this is a story of what can go wrong when someone lives in a broken family. He had no father as a mentor and his dysfunctinal mother wasn't all there for him. He was looking for love and a feeling of belonging.
The feminists dont like this movie because it shows the ills of current society of pushing single parenthood.
Simple Jack found the incel
This back fired on the news media. They thought they could bully this movie out of the theaters with scare tactics but instead they drove more people to watch the movie to see what was so provocative.
hahaha they did the opposite
@@lividsunshine8968 he wasn't dressed as the joker. and I think he's talking about how people wanted the world to be afraid of this movie and its message, just look at the FBI warning.
The whole controversy is what made me aware of it, I got interested after hearing the "disturbing" parts, and eventually I went so see it for myself and I loved it.
To me, the Joker film felt like a cautionary tale- a warning that the system can no longer sustain itself in false promises. In the film, the economically backward suffer while the rich live in their delusion of the "working system". The law and the standards in this society have failed them. They don't even have a voice (an example is how the death of the three guys is "hyped" while nobody in the rich circle had ever known the atrocities that the poor had to go through in their day to day life). Joker also serves as a presonal warning- in the film, Arthur is carried away in his problems and fantasies to take a better stand in his situation and in the end becomes a monster. The story serves a purpose of telling us who not to become.
Also, the film also did a great job of portraying the Joker and Batman as two sides to the same coin- one wronged and repressed by the system and the society, and another wronged by the rebels/hooligans who revolted against it.
The film was majorly shot from the perspective of the Joker (since it’s his story from his perspective) and it feels only right if the creators made a sequel conveying the story of Batman from his perspective.
Haritha Meyyappan yes absolutely. People failed by the system are pushed to the margins and rejected and marked “damaged” even as children and the lack of compassion between people pushes people to break and become something darker.
Wow, what a brilliant take. I think I felt this way too but I couldn’t quite articulate
That is a brilliant analysis.
What society would you be talking about cause I love this society it doesn't judge you by your race, wealth, gender, or anything else, I'm tired people complaining about non-existent scenarios and acting like it's poetic.
@@anunknownentity1637 Are you saying that no ones life can be a mirror of the struggles that Arthur Fleck has to endure. Surely there are people whose lives intersect at the Poverty, Poor Mental Health and Isolation positions on the spectrum of potential life circumstances. Your claim that this is a non-existent scenario surely cannot justifiable rationally. Are you suggesting that there isn't the possibility of a sick elderly single mum with a grown male son that is socially awkward and living in poverty with mental illness without adequate social networks to help bare his considerable burdens? That is highly statistically likely is it not? And even if the scenario is totally unlikely it doesn't mean that we cannot empathise with the fictional characters plight.
Secondly, an attempt at describing someones suffering with flowery (faux-poetic if you insist) language doesn't take anything away from the reality of the suffering of the person - be they a real character or a fictional character. We all respond emotionally to Shakespeare don't we. My Two Cents.
"He is the reflection of your own alienation." - Best description ever of a modern meme and why it's popular.
@Tim Evans I mean, those who are poor should unironically shoot up billionaires
@Tim Evans "Don't do anything about your dire circumstances because then rich people will think poorly of you"
M8 that's not exactly a great argument, especially considering that they already barely see us as human. Btw violence is a tool, it can be used for good or for evil
@Tim Evans the Joker is my fav fictional character...But at the end of the day, we all should realise he's a FICTIONAL character
@Tim Evans Absolutely, a lot of theorists have a lot of different ideas on how we should go about a revolution, there's the capture of the state Leninist theory, the Fidel's foco theory and the collapse theory. At the end of the day we can only hope shit works out and we don't get contra'd
@Tim Evans They're not doing great but they're by far better off than they would be if those revolutions hadn't happened
I watched JOKER with my parents, and they said it was the "most depraved" depiction of the character yet. I disagree. Even leaving out the many comic book portrayals (that would be too easy anyway), Jack Nicholson's and Jared Leto's versions of the Joker were MUCH more depraved. But people don't see them that way because BATMAN (1989) and SUICIDE SQUAD were basically live-action cartoons. I think there's something hypocritical - or at least delusional - about being offended by the Joker only when he's "not funny." The Joker himself seemed to be addressing us in this movie when he said: "You decide what's right or wrong, in the same way that you decide what's funny."
It's the most depraved depiction of SOCIETY
“A child not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth”
That ending was so good...
"Joker is politics at it's most elemental form, it displays rebellion, sound, fury and chaos. It turns politics to 'One big Joke!!' "
Can we just pretend Jared Leto's Joker doesn't exist?
Who?
LMAO He Made Joker an Edgy 40 years Old Emo
Gabriel Jordan we were doing that until you mentioned him
Jared letos joker is exactly the joker from the comics
@@Stinoco My apologies :)
The fact that people were afraid of this movie's "message" tells you how exposing it was. If people are worried that a fictional story is going to be the final spark for violence by some, it tells you that the TNT has been there the whole time.
That anyone would be worried about real-world consequences says how on-the-nose it was about the circumstances, the society, the Joker was in. Don't vilify the messenger for exposing what's already there. Start working to diffuse the powderkeg.
"Cutting out my tongue doesn't mean I'm lying ... It just shows you fear what I have to say" ... I don't remember where I read it but it's my new favorite quote ... That's all that is going on ... Those who don't want discussion, debate and independent thought are attempting to devalue those people, things and undertakings that prompt discussion, debate and independent thought and action.
The new Joker movie doesn't portray the Joker at all as a good person. He's more a warning of what can happen to people if society goes to shit and becomes heartless. You'll grow a monster that spreads chaos.
@Kristopher Prime Both sides are evil. Both sides keep us poor.
The funny thing is, in the movie, the media was the one who created the "movement" and panic in the first place
And in reality they're creating chaos about a movie
edit: wait, are they comparing Bush to Batman?!
Then, the SJW movement came from one message by Twitter as an insult.
Then, SJWs went mainstream when the Gamergate controversy existed. I wish none of this would have happened in the first place.
@@poweroffriendship2.0 SJW are political movements
And most of them take everything as an insult while insulting everyone else
And make the people who try to do good look bad because of association
@@poweroffriendship2.0 and now the anti sjw became incel pandering conspiracy nutjobs that hate any movie that has a female caracter in it. Just look like their bitching on the mandalorian
“Knock knock who’s there?”
"The police...your son got hit by a drunk driver. He’s dead.”
*"YOU CAN'T JOKE ABOUT THAT!"*
Using a strawman argument is not a good look on you bro
Anish Bhave Me: ““cats have claws that scratch” You: “you can’t strawman cats, bro...that’s like offensive!”
Lmao no ones saying you cant joke about that.
Tell that to Ricky Gervais
_That's not funny. That's the not the kind of joke._
*~ said by one repairman and a freedom terrorist from Brazil (1985)*
Joker 2019 is more of a message than a movie. It's a message to our society that if we don't show compassion to other people or clean up our act towards the misguided and mentally ill people, then anyone can be Joker
@mrvvinston No, you wannabe fascist. Being compassionate means you reject materialism, returning to that "opiate of the masses" you hate so much.
I see it as a cautionary tale about loneliness and pain in a world devoid of compassion. Society always creates its own monsters, but never assumes responsibility.
Area 51 raid: nah there joking
Joker’s media craze: Now THIS is an avengers level threat!
How'd that Area 51 "raid" go for ya? LOL
Unpopular opinion: anyone who says any movie isn't political is fooling themselves. Stories are political by nature. They may not tell you what to believe (and indeed they generally shouldn't) but they always examine society, whether intentionally or otherwise, and examining a society is an inherently political act.
Sophie Jones I agree with this statement. I study film and you can analyze almost any movie and find some sort of message in the portrayal of the characters or how the plot unfolds etc.
So The Room is actually political?
@@abemora3338 It has much to say about gender politics. It's not particularly smart or true, but it *is* mentioned a lot.
Quirderph Okay, now Flubber!
@@abemora3338 An in-depht look into the nature of AI and its place in society, as well as a critique of relations in the workplace.
The last time I was this early, the Wayne’s were still a happy family.
Kaitln White shots fired
Kaitln White so was Jeffrey Epstein....
Harvey Manuel OMG I felt that. I may have gone too far...
Oh that "Wayne is" family.
*cue pearls flying*
If this movie teaches you to think and do the wrong things, it's not the movie's fault. It's your own.
When people get all their morals from movies, society has failed.
Agreed! [EDIT: While there are things to be gained from movies, ethics and morality? No.]
Gee, imagine a film that tries to humanize young, empathetic, sociable but awkward men on the edge of breakdown
Causes society to further dehumanize and bully said men by portraying them as comic book caricatures and sociopaths waiting for an opportunity to commit atrocities.
Imagine a cry for help and empathy being met with violence and hatred by the very people that proclaim that they represent the exact opposite.
@V D.O. Where did I say antisocial?
Exactly
Plenty of films like that. The likable shy nerd is an archetype. And there's a lot of people who find that kind of person attractive. Another history, a completely different one, are the incels, misoginistics, sociopaths and fake nice guys. They are scary.
"...and who, exactly, was this film talking to..."
Excellent question. The viewer's interpretations/impressions are a Rorschach test.
So basically. I don't like this person. He is the Joker
So if the joker didn't like batman, would batman therefore be the joker?
Nah, more like: I don't like society, therefore I'm the Joker
This Joker fella ...He sounds like a real jerk!
@@ctrlz7582
I know this is a Meme but I saw one person making this argument seriously on Twitter.
So I'm just gonna say, this argument applies to 99.9% of all the movies that have ever existed and Joker is about a society that left him behind when he needed help. Is not just about a person living in society.
Exactly dehumanize, devalue and demonize those you dub your enemies
Simply put everything becomes a political symbol in the pop culture zeitgeist. This is how we have been for thousands of years but now it is amplified thanks to the internet and social media.
Is this a good or bad thing?
AlienBoy13
Bit of both. On one hand, symbols can make a party more recognizable. On the other hand, this can turn a symbol that was peaceful into something horrible (i.e. the OK symbol).
@@phantomfan6966
I agree. The swastika is a perfect example of a symbol being use for toxic stupidity.
Zeitgeist? That sounds german. What are you, a nazi?
Nick F So bc something sounds German, you assume they're a Nazi? I guess that is literally the spirit of the times. Massively brainwashed public.
See this is what annoys me is the whole incel angle, hes never actually rejected in the film by any woman, and even the black woman he thought he was dating, that scene is the tipping point for Arther and his realization that he is truly ill and needs help,earlier in the movie when they are on The elevator she does the finger gun thing which for most people means i hate this and i want to be somewhere else, arther does it when he realizes it was never real
They decided on the incel angle before the film came out, it wasn't a particularly stron comparison.
@@mankytoes who is "they"?
It's does seem a bit of a stretch, the film is about someone with real issues genuinely let down by society, while incels are all about blaming society for not getting what they want and refusing to take any personal responsibility.
jaykl29212 But how is that related to the movie? It was the mainstream press that connected the movie with incels before it was even released, not _some men_ as you put it.
@jaykl29212 Yea that does suck for the sweet girls out there. But that's just how it is these days. The world is falling apart after all. Are you really surprised that some men end up alienated and fucked in the head?
@@101Mant Journos. Joker's character clearly doesn't have their motivation primarily.
I'm both a reader and film-goer. If this was written in a book, none of these conversations would even be happening. Why? Because "cautionary tales" and "unreliable narrators" are a common fixture in books. Films almost never give us these kinds of stories. Joker has been the rare exception.
"Cautionary tales" are stories where that illustrate what might happen if we refuse to do what is moral. Instead of narrators who are aspirational figures, they contain figures who make terrible decisions and face the consequences because of it. The most famous book that falls into this category is Madame Bovary by Gustave Flaubert. The title character is a young, dissatisfied wife who commits adultery and whose life spirals into chaos and even death as a consequence. The new Joker film asks, "what happens when we, as a society, don't make sure that low-income people who have mental illnesses get access to the medicines they need?" The filmmaker's answer is that we create the worst kind of criminal. The film makes an amazing case for having a national pharmacare system.
"Unreliable narrators" are people who can't be trusted to tell their own stories truthfully. The Joker in this new film is a perfect example of an unreliable narrator. The Joker we have come to know since his inception in the comics 100 years ago is always a liar and manipulator. In Nolan's film he tells several abbreviated versions of his origin story and the audience gets to hear every one so we know every one is a lie. This film tells us one story without contrasting it with every other version he tells, so we have to guess whether this story is the true story of how he became the Joker or not. Knowing what we know about the character, it is likely that this story is lies and deception carefully sprinkled with just enough truth to make is sound plausible.
Stories with unreliable narrators almost never show up in films. Film-goers are always expected to treat every narrator as if he's speaking under oath in a court room. And I think that's why this film has raised to so much ire in both film critics and goers. This film actually shows us what makes the Joker so dangerous, and what it's like to be manipulated by one of his manufactured narratives.
Wow dude write a school essay just like that guaranteed a
"reflection of your own alienation" makes a lot of sense. I saw it from the point of view of someone who is mentally ill and treated like dirt all the time. Who became mentally ill because of psychological violence. It gets to a point where you just snap. To me, the message is clear: treat people with at least a little bit of respect. If you don't, can you really blame their response to years of abuse?
"The system doesn't care, the Universe is indifferent." - Don Draper.
"Turns politics into one, big joke."
But hasn't politics *always* been a joke?
Not when you're on the receiving end of it. I think some politicians want us to think it's a joke so they can get away with more.
No, believe it or not, there was a time when those in power actually CARED about the world!
@@adamlong1196 I think there still are. It's just a dark patch.
Heath Ledger's Joker scared me more than practically any movie character I have ever seen. The anxiety I felt watching him was real.
De Niro and Phoenix: So this movie is about the common everyman rising up against the elite? How progressive!
Society: Yes, we really should rise up against the liberal elites and their condescending progressive attitudes
De Niro and Phoenix: Wait, no...
Yes, we really should rise up against the status quo and the condescending attitudes.
*CORRECTED*
But Trump isn't from the elite of pedd*s and misoginists, just a self made man (sarcasm).
"A surveillance system that requires hacking into everyone's phones" Alexa has entered the chat .
I remember my teacher told me this saying while analyzing villains for a project: “The macabre brings the fascination of others while it brings the fantasy up in some.”
the beauty of jokers insanity in a political context is that no matter what political view one has they can either find reason to see the political opposition as joker or find reason to see the joker as icon for the fight against that opposition. the joker is political without taking sides. if anything he's anarchistic but even that can be argued.
You can't even write a story or make a movie with out people blaming you for trying to start mass shootings. This is one of the many things wrong now a days. There might be a message in the story but the message you receive isn't solely the product of the creator. It is also your perception of what you experienced.
Tim Evans not everyone who saw something political in it, saw the mass shooting bs that a certain segment did.
For an example, Peter Coffin have a very political take on the movie that also explicitly pushed back on the liberal idea that it was a dangerous movie that would encourage mass shootings. I personally really like his take on it.
in the end, who really wants to remain unknown, unloved, and unrecognized? Joker, deep down, is all of us. It's always about our world.
I'd love to see a video about The Disaster Artist and Dolemite is My Name. Each one is about living your dreams and making the art you want to see, but each goes about it in a different way. Disaster Artist is almost a dark story about obsession, while Dolemite is more happy-go lucky and open to whatever changes may come.
throw in ed wood and you have a perfect trilogy
Dolemite was really good man
people need to be compassionate instead of just looking out for themselves
ULGROTHA authoritarianism and communism are kind of in the same boat and socialism is just the pathway for the government to get communism. Capitalism is freedom.
@ULGROTHA "Individualism" doesn't mean you can't take care of other people. I'm not an individualist but you never even defined it.
It's quite sad that no one thought that lack of Christianity may be the problem.
The fact that the Joker film really challenged the status quo makes it one of the best iterations of the clown prince of crime. My worry was that they would make a Joker with a defined backstory which went against the comics but instead they made a Joker which people with different beliefs saw differently, creating a subjective character. The way I saw this Joker was that he was a man who was wronged by so many people and lashed out by stoking violence between the neo-liberalist left and the far right to the point of chaos. I didn't see him as a political figure or symbol but a character who weaponized politics to destroy those who wronged him. He is not a man who believes in politics but one that uses strongly held political beliefs pf others to sow the seeds of anarchy
Do I look like the kind of clown that could start a movement?
- Arthur Fleck, The Joker
This video is more political than the Joker could ever dream of being.
exactly...
It’s actually political af if you search about Chile’s current situation you will find big similarities between political reality and movie
@@isabellasimonetti6126 Said th e marxist.
What's interesting about The Joker as a villain in any story writing is that he's meant to be the complete opposite of what Batman is and both characters are shaped by tragedy, pain and trauma A.K.A "One Bad Day." In my opinion what makes the joker "The Joker" is not just the makeup, the suit and the craziness but its the idea of the joker having gone through the effects Batman has gone through as a child which makes him who he is. And whatever happened to the joker can tie into political or philosophical standpoints that somebody can agree with.
The weird part about about the joker is both the far left and far right can relate to the joker.
Horseshoe principle.
Radicals rise up!
@Kristopher Prime I know this is an old comment but I just wanna say I'm glad to have come across your comment. I just saw the movie today again for the first time in a while and was amazed how politically balanced the movie is. I was shocked to see the left hate it because it was appealing to the alt right extremist and was surprised to see the right say it was a socialist film. This is a film that's meaning is reflective of the viewers own belief. As someone who's a centralist the movie was balanced on both sides
One thing that has become annoying is tourist coming to our area to see some steps when not once these people were interested in the hood. They're also going to fix them 😒......mind you those steps have not been fixed in 20+ years.
You're mad they're going to fix them. You're trying to be offended, lmao.
People are going to a popular place and now they are making the steps nicer and fixing them? What's wrong with that wtf
That's a pro tourism argument if ever I heard one
Cunnysmythe They are starting the steps then they make surrounding areas better raise the price of the area and all the people who lived there can’t afford it anymore. And all the rich people starting moving in
@@SarifaXionic Oh, the film's making them gentrify the area?
Maybe edit your initial post, that's a legit concern that anyone could empathise with
It sounded like the city council was stepping up to do repairs finally
EDIT: Shit, you're not OP. Oops.
The most disturbing thing from the controversy of the Joker is a freelance writer I know who had on standby two or three articles waiting for a Joker inspired act of violence. He left open spaces to place in The Who what when and where to fill in later. Most of the articles were just place blaming, the NRA, the film industry, toxic masculinity, incels and white nationalism. This isn’t uncommon and is why some of these click bait articles somehow feel disjointed from the headline or subject later on in the read. That’s what’s not disturbed me.
It was the fact that he was annoyed that he wrote those articles and spent the time on them and nothing happened. That is disturbing.
Once a certain group of people starts hoping for disaster to help prove their points, it’s time to start re-evaluating their points.
CarloisBuriedAlive
Your telling me. An what’s creepy Is that he doesn’t seem to be aware as to how morbid this is.
Adam Lemus I think it’s because the Media is honoring this stuff, so they get rewarded for writing pieces on it and then they also look like heroes for pointing it all out.
It’s like hoping a fire breaks out next door and being ready with hoses and extinguishers lol - yeah you’ll look like the hero but you also were hoping for some destruction. Very morbid to the point of parody becoming real life lol
Am I the only one who didn't think this movie was political
It's political because the Joker character and his relationship to Batman is on political. It's all about class conflict and empathy and hatred. They've always been brothers.
@@Theyungcity23 not actually,this is one of the first(or only)storys where they're brothers
@@hollyyuri4924 they have always been 2 sides of the same coin
@@hollyyuri4924 speaking figuratively of course smh...
You👏are👏not👏alone!👏👏👏👏
Telling someone’s story even when the own filmmaker doesn’t agree with their characters views doesn’t mean they want to incite that type of behavior. It’s their job to tell the story, and extend to each character empathy. To express that they too have felt pain, desire, fear etc. It’s the job of the artist to tell the story truthfully, and the joker represents a lot of people (extremists to even just the old school weirdo). Art is supposed to interact to the times in was made in. The critics shouldn’t dismiss a movie because it disagrees with their politics. (This joker is FAR from my own views, but I LOVED the movie)
Short answer:
Media and randos on twitter fearmonger the hell out of this film stating it will incite violence, to a point where the police and up being present at screenings.
And then nothing happens. Because apparently after decades of violent Cinema human beings still haven't gotten the idea that maybe we have more agency than we give ourselves credit for.
And yet. We had the shotting in aurora and people mastrubating after 50 shades of gray.... So maybe not that much?
Benjamin Madrigal Pérez If something does happen then it’s just one or two people thinking that they are a big deal but they are nothing and the fact that they’re willing to bring other people down with them as apalling
Benjamin Madrigal Pérez the shooting in Aurora wasn't in relation to the movie batman, the shooting just happened in the theatre screening that movie, but he didn't shoot it up because of the movie - there was no relation (despite the media attempting and evidently successfullly convincing people that the movie inspired violence).
@@SistoActivitatemAtm didn't he said i'm Batman while shotting???
@@benjaminmadrigalperez9010 so? It doesnt make the movie less bad. Its that persons fault for the shooting not the movie
"Walking Rohrschach test" is a brilliant analogy!
About the 17:00 mark, I was thinking "So, it's basically the Fight Club of the 2010's"
In "Joker" he's humanized with a backstory...but one told by an unreliable, mentally ill narrator whose account we should be wary of. How much of what happens in the movie (told from the Joker's perspective) should we actually believe? How much was his in his imagination? So we're left doubting what was real and, more importantly, divided over the implications, the politics involved, the message...which is exactly what a manipulative psychopath like the Joker would do. So the joke's ultimately on us...
What Christopher Nolan's Joker depicted within the movie, Todd Phillips' brought about in the real world.
"Take away the killing, the sadism and the insanity..."
There's very little left if you take all THAT away from the Joker!
I love how they included all jokers except leto's
Just started watching your channel. You guys make quality stuff. I'm now subscribed and look forward to more videos with great analysis.
As a meme conoisseur I have to disagree with the meme part. Most memes use the joker ironically to mock those that identify with the joker with no sense of self-awareness
I swear that movie has some of the most iconic lines I've ever heard no wonder people remember it, wonder about it and the messages it alluded to
Best film of 2019
I watched the film, thought it was fantastic.
It's not in the top 5 of best films this year.
Ben White
Lol agreed.
I agree! FAVORITE movie of the year
This and parasite
The Lighthouse and Joker were my favorites of 2019. For Joker critics, yea i know it borrows major themes from Scorsese,Pupkin and Bickle, and its not a subtle movie, but I thought Joker was still an extremely unique and captivating experience , that had masterful technical directing, score and acting in the context of the story it was telling.
19:20: "Joker is kind of a walking Rorschach test."
That's gonna piss off Rorschach from "Watchmen!"
"Forgive my laughter: I have a condition."
That's It, I'm watching Dark Knight again.
The media said the movie would spark violence, not "incels on the internet"
The dark knight movie shooting/shooter had nothing to do with the joker.
Dissapointed guys
"He is the reflection of your own alienation." That is a wonderful way to look at the Joker.
The message of the movie is to always be nice to the ones with disorders and the quiet kid
Joker just made me feel very, very sad. From start to finish.
Y’all acting like Joker isn’t political while his whole character is straight up anarchyst
Isabella Simonetti I would say Joker is more of a nihilist than an anarchist, he’s more driven by philosophical views than political.
The moment the Joker intellectual property became objectively political was when an unpopular, bored white kid who, in full Joker cosplay, unloaded a machine gun at movie theater showing "The Dark Knight Rises" because he was obsessed with the Joke character. Even during his trial and sentencing, he still maintained the fictional Joker persona, specifically not having any remorse for his very real crimes.
Todd could have very well just named the movie, clown, and still would have made the same film.
He could have done away with the clown makeup and just made Arthur a struggling comedian or entertainer, but that would be "King of Comedy".
Cut more of the fat by just making him work in the service industry, but that would be "Taxi Driver".
Yeah, except a random movie about a random person wouldn't have gotten anywhere near the amount of attention as a movie about a well recognized fictional character that's been part of a well recognized franchise since 1940. Especially in a time when comic book movies are super popular.
The only people who didn't like this movie were the Rich and the powerful.
Not really, tbh. Most of the critics were associated with/a part of the media, which the movie criticised.
And their poor wyhte hacks and pawns
@@dominicwood8298 , or maybe critics just didn't like it as much like you. Let's be honest Joker isn't that great of a film like Taxi Driver or King of Comedy.
Nope .
@@brucebanana4486
Taxidriver is overrated. I recommend watching both. Those aren't the same movie. Is the same topic taken on very different ways. Joker is far superior it goes more in the inside of the charecter than Taxi driver.
Also you better be prepared because one of this days we will come for people like you and rise your taxes. We will bring economic and race justice. There is nowhere to hide!
19:22 " The Joker is a reflection of your own alienation" OMG! I felt that!!
I love the Jokers, they all have a different message.
But i think they are all kind of political, they demonstrate the corruption, how easy it is for the human nature to flip...
@Black Ninja being a clown in social media? idk, only watched that movie ones and cannot remeber a thing from it
Speaking as a progressive, I never understood how on earth this film (which I still haven't seen) became so politically charged, and after seeing this entire video, I still don't. It never made any sense. There have been plenty of movies before about socially alienated men driven to the edge by an uncaring world. Why would THIS one suddenly become interpreted as somehow validating incel culture or any kind of right-wing "men's rights" ideology? There's simply no there there.
From the opposite angle, while I agree with Michael Moore about many things, this was an absurd reach on his part. Even without having seen the film, it's pretty clear to me that whatever sort of message might have been intended, it was not any kind of critique about economics, or even the social dynamics caused by economic ideologies.
This video showed HOW the film became so political, but I still have no idea why. A whole lot of people, occupying very different perspectives, projected like CRAZY onto a film that most of them hadn't even seen, and I do not understand why.
people want to confirm their own biases on both sides
You missed the point if you put joker on a pedestal. The point may have been that WE should stop treating others like garbage. Not that you are being treated like garbage and that gives you right to become a villain.
SAY IT LOUDER FOR PEOPLE IN THE BACK!
In India when I came out watching Joker, my friends were bored, they said they like either social or political movies. Then I tried explain to them how political Joker was, I am not much aware of American cultural phenomenon but what I could see is following :-
*Not enough affordable medical help from state
*unclean city because workers are on strike
*workers protesting outside while rich people watching "Modern Times" of Charlie inside (you will know if you have seen modern times, machines affecting employment)
*Not proper gun control and its consequences
*Social isolation is a social aspect
*some headlines can be seen in newspapers
*standing up in the end as the hero of workers (though the character is self aware as negative)
In conclusion I saw this movie as how we are failing people those are in need and can be helped out. Not as society alone but but a state more. The Marxist idea of society can be seen in bits but in the end movie portrays it as anarchism and not a legit revolution
Of course it's a political film, it just doesn't take any definitive stance. The incel angle is a lens through which many critics saw it because it's on everybody's mind. If it would've been released at another time, it would've been some other angry group of disenfranchised people.
The film isn't telling these angry people to rise up and start a riot. It's telling society that when there's an angry group of people who feel left out, ignored and ridiculed - that's a DANGEROUS situation. If you interpret this movie as desiring chaos, you're dumb. It's a warning, on a purely pragmatic level - angry, sad people who feel that their lives don't matter are dangerous, especially when more and more of them connect, as they can do through media.
Calling those people pathetic losers doesn't help, just like it doesn't help saying "get a job and do something with your life". It might help individuals, but when there are vast amounts of people with the same problem, the problem isn't individual, it's societal. And it's saddening that so called critics can't see that this is what art tries to teach us.
Nancy Pelosi: Joker is alt right propaganda!
Michael Moore: It is a masterpiece
Joker is a movie on Revolt, revolt against the system, its ways and how it just does not work for the common people. It is about what leads to the point beyond which you have to take things int your own hands.
You do not have to see very far to see the effects of such circumstances in the world today. Hong Kong is fighting its own Government, students in India are rising up against its own governments wrongdoings. 2019 was a year of protests all over the world and you must have been blind to not notice.
A coincidence: two weeks after the premiere of this movie a revolution started in my country 🇨🇱
What annoys me most about this whole incel-thing is that every incel forgot, that:
- *You are not entiteled to have a girlfriend*
- The fact, that you can't get laid, does not make women responsible for your failures.
The whole mindset seems to be about not wanting to take responsibility for their failures. The reason they can't get laid isn't their fault, it's because of how men and women are and all the Chad and Stacey nonsense, they were given a bad hand in the genetic lottery and aren't good enough.
They then seem completely unaware of the irony of making themselves increasingly less likeable to women while complaining about it and reassuring each other it's not their fault.
Halfblood Princess you’re right. don’t think people appreciate the danger of young men with nothing to lose tho. you can be for sexual liberation. makes sense right? nobody will argue with you. but to ignore the consequences... idk. when men don’t have a woman and a family and have nothing to lose, they will keep acting more and more violent. they aren’t owed anything of course not. but it’s a reality people refuse to acknowledge. and it’s simple. but i’m a realist. most people are idealists.
What has that got to do with the movie? Arthur Fleck isn’t an incel.
Marcus Chang big agree
@@dpr8445 You are right, this incel-stuff is probably very dangerous on top of fr*gging annoying.
The Affluent Liberal Class and the Media didn’t like what the film had to say. That’s how it got political.
It's funny because if the Joker were to exist in real life, he'd whoop all those who seek to push their agenda, no matter left or right, using his face as a symbol. Same goes for Rorschach.
Diggorydies Naah dude, he would be easily an anarchist
@@isabellasimonetti6126 I don't think so. Joker can become whatever serves his purpose of getting a bunch of people to do crazy stuff for him.
Yeah, fun fact, your interpretation is not objective
This movie could have been named Arthur, or Psycho-dude, but I don't understand why this was made a Joker film. I can't even see that guy facing Batman. Still a good movie, I just lost sight of the fact that this was supposed to be DC's greatest villain!
You have to be very north-american to think this is a movie about incels and not about capitalism
It's interesting how the film itself, despite having a lot of subject matters it does, is not polarized in and of itself, yet the only polarization was SURROUNDING it.
Everything in life is political
Absolutely
going to toilet too?
@@vivvy_0 yes, your sanitary system is political
No. That way lies madness and totalitarian justification for controlling anything people do.
Because people like you make it so.
Joker's character becomes a tool to process the self, the family, the community, the government, and the whole society. I admire the people behind who created the character.
“What happened to the American dream? It came true!”
The Joker is a villian. That is the one constant. Why he does it *is* important, what it means *is* important, but at the end of the day, he is always a murderer and a terrorist.
Yes!!! Thats very true to life as well. Most extremists have reasons that explain their actions. But shouldn't be used to excuse them