I really like your plans. Deinterlining the Bronx should be the #1 plans - it'll massively boost capacity and make the system more resilient without costing too much. The Utica Ave. subway can be built simultaneously. The next plan should be simultaneously building a crosstown Bronx line (many options for this), extending the subway to Co-Op city, and extending the second ave subway to Throgg's Neck. The branch to Throgg's Neck can be elevated on a concrete viaduct. I do think another branch of the SAS should continue on 3rd ave though - the El used to run there, and there is currently no subway service (only Metro-North, which lacks connections and terminates at Grand Central).
I like all the Bronx connections. Don't forget that residents of Westchester County would take public buses into the Bronx to transfer to the subway lines going into Manhattan as it's cheaper than taking Metro North. Same concept with Nassau County residents taking public buses to Jamaica to connect with the E, J, and F trains.
A lot of the Future NYC Subway planners do not think about that. With NICE Bus routes into Queens, it is more than just connecting with the Subway because they cannot afford LIRR fares. It is the Nassau County residents who work in the Borough of Queens. Considering Subway line extensions to the Queens/Nassau Border (the Far Rockaway (A) is the only current line that goes to the Queens/Nassau border at the Mott Avenue Station) NICE Bus will have to still continue operations to Downtown Jamaica and Downtown Flushing, along with the 3 routes to/from Far Rockaway. The only answer is you will need a new LIGHT RAIL Divison for Long Island to make the transition to the NYC Subway smoother as LIGHT RAIL carries more capacity, and can take more cars off the Parkways and Expressways than NICE Bus. When we are talking Bee Line Bus routes in Westchester County, the grid is there, no dobut, however the question is funding because many of the Bee Line routes need to operate more frequently as they all generally travel in high density areas of Westchester County. A LIGHT RAIL NETWORK may bring Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Rockland, Orange, Sullivan and Ulser County together, along with linking areas of New York State South of Albany together. Other than the NYC Subway impact, due to people not being able to afford MetroNorth fares, I am guaranteeing you that much of the bus feeds into the NYC Subway are South of White Plains/Tarrytown and Southwest of Port Chester. Then beyond that, these are mainly Westchester County residents who work in The Bronx.
@@robotx9285 I think that's probably the only feasible way to achieve express tracks on the SAS, since Phases 1 and 2 are two-track and running express trains on the route when the full length T line is built would be complicated, if not impractical.
@Hypestrike1 For the frequencies the trains would be running at, and the fact the stations are more spanxed put as well as near Lexington Ave Line. Running express trains on only two tracks shared with local trains is a no go in Manhattan, especially since there will be times when the R or N gets rerouted onto second Ave.
@@robotx9285 Exactly, which is why express service on the T could only work now if a second sets of tracks were excavated below and parallel to the existing ROW under Second Avenue for them. Moreover, even if express tracks supplementing the T Train were constructed, they would not be efficient if they only ran in Manhattan without branching into the Bronx or Brooklyn, as the length of the T Train (as planned) covers a mere 8.5 miles in Manhattan alone. Since this is not a relatively long distance, any express service would probably not be used to a capacity that makes them economically worthwhile, especially when you have the IRT express lines- with much more expansive coverage beyond Manhattan- just two blocks away.
I lived in Co-op City from 1969 (my family was among the earliest arrivals there) to 1992. And having to take a bus to the subway was a real pain. The impression I'd always had was that it was proposed that the 2nd Ave line would go to Co-op City...but we saw what happened with the on-again-off-again work on the 2nd Avenue line, and then it was "it'll never happen". Still might, but I wouldn't put serious money on it.
Nice work! I think a cool video would be exploring Andrew Lynch’s G train loop ideas as well as the creating a loop with the S train from Times to Grand, allowing for a connection to Penn Station. It seems like a lot of other Subway systems have at least 1 loop line and yeah NYC has pretty unique urban planning but I would love a video that would explore why NYC never got one and what a loop line could potentially look like in 2023
Plus I always wished there was an easy way to get to Penn froms Grand. It really feels like such a missing link imo but maybe the MTA has an answer to that that im just unaware of?
I have wished for the Second Avenue Subway to be built since 1967 as a child, but it was nothing but a pipe dream. Those executives were talking loud and saying nothing, and the band played on.
That last sentence is the story of modern NY, especially after 9/11. It really feels like the city should be a lot further along much more evenly than it currently is.
Construction on 2 Av and E 103 Street started in 1972, as well as sections near the Manhattan Bridge for the lower section. All work STOPPED in 1976 when the DEMOCROOKS stole the funds for same, since they couldn't keep their filthy hands out of the cookie jar. In 2017 the only thing they have to show for it is the section from E 63 Street to E 96 Street and the completed tunnels from 96 St to 105 St used for train storage. Tunnels from 105 Street to 121 Street is still sits unused.
Dear Tech Transit, overall your suggestions and those of past and present plans make sense. Especially like your recommendations for the track configuration on the stations you’ve mentioned. Makes one wonder why those track arrangements have been neglected by the MTA’s scope. A point I always miss in these discussions, is the fact that original IRT, BMT, IND lines are too Manhattan centric. For interborough transit a shift of focus towards connection between Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island and possibly even beyond borough limits should in my humble opinion become a scope to which the MTA starts investigating the possibilities. Cheerio
Since the common point is the IRT Bronx Lines and one seat rides, specifically the Jerome Avenue Line, here's a good idea to mitigate some of these issues: Complete replacement of the three track elevated structure feeding only one trunk line with a 4 track subway feeding into both the west side and east side subways, and also rebuilding the Harlem River-Lenox connection (Note: this is a long term project). Here is the plan: Starting at Grand Concourse and 151st Street, two new tracks would diverge from the existing three track structure, and then operate under 153rd Street. It would continue under that street, meeting up with the new tracks from the new IRT Lenox Tunnel. Past the Yankees-East 153rd Street MNRR station, it would then transition to operate under Anderson Avenue. This would require digging up the southern end of the Macombs Dam park, and a new express station would be built at 161st Street and Jerome Avenue, near the park and the western side of Yankee Stadium. At this point, we have a 4 track line hosting the (3) and (4) trains, with the (3) trains taking the express tracks and the (4) making all stops in the area like currently does on the Jerome Avenue Line. The 4-track line would then continue under Anderson Avenue, with a local stop at 167th Street, and then shift under the Edward Grant Highway to make another local stop at 170th Street. From that point, the new line would the operate under University Avenue through the western part of the borough. The next station on the line would be an express station at 174th Street-Featherbed Lane. This station would serve crosstown buses heading to Washington Heights and the GWB Bus Terminal to the west, and, like other stations on the line, it would also serve those same buses going to Eastern Bronx neighborhoods. The next set of stations are local stops at Tremont Avenue, Burnside Avenue, and 183rd Street, and an express stop at Fordham Road, and finally another local stop at Kingsbridge Road. After Kingsbridge Road, the line then goes under Goulden Avenue. It would make another local stop at Bedford Park Blvd near Lehman College, and finally an express stop at Gun Hill Road. A track connection will be built to connect to the existing Concourse Yard and Jerome Yard at 195th Street. Gun Hill Road will serve as the northern terminal of the local trains (the (4)), while the express tracks continue north. A relay area will be built north of the station for the local trains. After Gun Hill Road, the express tracks (the (3) train) will continue northward under Mosholu Pkwy and the Bronx River Pkwy before finally turning eastward under 233rd Street in Woodlawn. It would stop at Jerome Avenue to allow for buses from Westchester county to intercept the subway trains sooner. Another stop would be make at Katonah Avenue, before crossing into the Wakefield neighborhood and terminating at White Plains Road, with a possibility for extension eastward to the city limits. Replacement bus service will be provided along Jerome Avenue for those who need it. The second key part of this plan is rebuilding the connection between the Jerome, White Plains, and Lenox Lines, which has a grade crossing in Manhattan, and really sharp curve in the Bronx that slow service. Starting with the grade crossing, at 138th Street and Lenox Avenue, two new tracks would split off from the existing alignment and operate under the existing tracks to a new full length, ADA station at 145th Street. This station would serve both the (2) and (3) lines, doubling service at this station. At 147th Street, the new tracks would head east under the Harlem River and enter the Bronx at 150th Street. At the Major Deegan Expressway, the tracks split into two branches. The first pair turns north under River Avenue and then under 153rd Street to become the express tracks of the Jerome Avenue Elevated replacement subway. A new station would be built under River Avenue to serve the Bronx Terminal Market. The second set continues diagonally to 149th Street, meeting up with the existing tracks to the 149th Street-Grand Concourse station, where service continues as normal. In addition, the (5) train merge will be rebuilt so that it avoids the 149th Street station for a smoother and faster ride. The (2) and (5) interline will be dealt with in a later project. The Harlem-148th Street station would not be served by the (3) train under this scenario (the existing tracks will remain for access to the Lenox Yard for the (2) and (3), though the (3) will use the Jerome Avenue replacement subway. Therefore, abandoning it and replacing it with increased bus service to other stations on the line is one option. Another option is to possibility have the station served by a 5-car (S) shuttle train to 135th Street. This would require rebuilding the 135th Street station to a three track-two island platform station, with track access to the center track at both ends. The (S) would operate at 12 trains per hour, and would serve a similar purpose to the Rockaway Park Shuttle in linking Harlem-148th Street to the (2) and (3) trains for residents who live near the area. This plan (which should be built in phases) has many Better service to Western Bronx, and Woodlawn proper (the current subway options don't reach these areas) All-day express service in the area, providing faster commutes between Manhattan and the Bronx Allows for one seat rides betwen Western Bronx either the west or east sides of Manhattan, while reducing interlining Ability to accommodate for service disruptions by allowing for service adjustments on the fly, allowing for service to continue running (i.e: an incident on the Lexington Avenue Express prevents (4) trains from coming down the line to Brooklyn. Solution: route the (4) to the IRT Lenox Line and West Side IRT to Brooklyn, resuming the regular service at Atlantic Avenue). Smoother and faster service for (5) train customers, improving service between the Northeast Bronx and the East Side of Manhattan The drawbacks include: Potential expensive costs Conversion of service to Harlem-148th Street to a shuttle. Inconvenient transfers between Concourse and the new subway Potential crowding on the IND Concourse Line? I think
14:14 I really like ur plan to extend the 2nd av line to throgs neck, but I think the (T) should go there and the (Q) via 125 St. I also want the (T) to be extended via a new tunnel from Hanover Square to underneath the Court St (Transit museum) station with an island platform built there. Then connect to the 2 outer tracks of Hoyt-Schermerhorn and run via Fulton St running local to Euclid Av, and the (C) runs express to prevent merging conflicts. You could aslo extend the Fulton St line to wherever, and have the (C) and (T) trains run there.
Your complaint about railfanners wanting such wild ideas is fine, despite me having my own wild ideas. I want to fix MTA’s money issues as well in order to fund such massive construction projects. I really hope my proposals come to their attention & at least get considered. Thanks for being such an amazing transit advocate! I really hope the 2nd Avenue Subway gets finished in record time.
I want railfans to think about being pragmatic and live in the real world for a second, as someone who has been in the political arena for the last two years, I assure you that we are not the only interest. There is so much money and political capital to go around, and there is a reason why I care about cost: I want to politicians to be able to say that for the price of one Second Ave subway, we are doing 4 or 5 different expansion projects. To do so, one must understand where it is best place to tunnel and to reuse existing ROWs, and understand how regional rail works. If not, expect the price to balloon to way more than what you expected and for more delays to happen.
This is interesting, though I have my own takes on it. I do believe that here should still be two segments of the SAS in the Bronx, though in my take, the main branch continues up 3rd Avenue to at least 163rd Street. There, it would actually continue up Boston Road to 169th Street. There it would continue via Crotona Avenue to Fordham Road. That’s the first part of this sector. From there it could cut through the Bronx Park and then continue East via Allerton Avenue to Boston Road again, where it will continue along that street to Dyre Avenue, a few blocks walking distance from Co-Op City. A replacement for the Dyre Avenue Line, this will provide new service to the South Bronx with connections to the existing White Plains Road Line and an extended Concourse Line, which will provide direct service to Co-Op City. Meanwhile branch will be built branching off the main SAS line at 149th Street. From there it will operate along that street, connecting with the Pelham Line, before operating via Randall Avenue to Castle Hill Avenue. From there, crossing the Westchester Creek, it would then operate along Lafayette Avenue to East Tremont Avenue. This line would better serve Southeast Bronx by providing new coverage for them.
I think the first branch you propose has some issues. Bronx Park is a protected Forever Wild Site, and the NY State Constitution prohibits any construction in. Forever Wild Sites. There is a reason why in my Concourse extension video that I threw out plans to extend it via Burke Ave, because that is going to run into Bronx Park. Even though Fordham Rd and Gun Hill Rd, the two alignments that I prefer run through Bronx Park, the subway will be under existing roads, so it will be more feasible to do construction there. I also think that the IND plans to take over the 6 to Pelham is way over the top. I think reconfiguring the switches at Westchester Square and CBTC will give some more capacity, as the 6 is already deinterlined. If you want more rail capacity from Manhattan to the Eastern Bronx, which I outlined isn't necessary, extend the subway via Throgs Neck via 163rd St. Here, you can get an extra 15 tph to serve a transit desert that is dependent on the 6, and supplement the loss of direct east side service at 3rd Ave-149th St. If riders want to go to the Southern Bronx, they can always transfer to the 6 at Southern Blvd.
@@jointransitassociation Well there could be some way to get around it, being special permits or exceptions or something, though I’m honesty not counting on it just yet. In all actuality, any SAS plans north of Fordham Road are a bit of a longer term plan. As for Pelham, I’m not proposing having SAS take over that line. Rather, I’m proposing a supplemental line that will serve the bottom of Southeast Bronx alongside the existing 6 route.
Also they can do this if they have any interest in this one, bringing the 2nd Avenue Subway T train to Gun Hill Road/White Plains Road via the rebuild of the 3rd Avenue elevated line starting at 3rd Avenue-156th Street and making these stops: 161st Street-Saint Anne’s Avenue, 166th Street, 169th Street, Claremont Parkway-171st-172nd Streets, 174th Street, (extention to the White Plains Road line after this station and further up the line), Tremont Avenue-177th Street (free transfers to the Concourse and Pelham lines at: Tremont Avenue-Grand Concourse, Westchester Square-East Tremont Avenue, and Parkchester-East 177th Street), 180th Street (an extension to the White Plains Road line after this station), 183rd Street, Fordham Road-190th Street, Bedford Park Boulevard-200th Street, 204th Street, Williams Bridge-210th Street, and Gun Hill Road making a connection to these following stations: New York Botanical Gardens with connection to Metro North, Southern Boulevard-Bronx Zoo, Fordham Road-Southern Boulevard, East 187th Street, Arthur Avenue, and East 188th Street making East 188th Street the last stop by heading Arthur Avenue and stopping directly at East 188th Street making that the last stop on the Southern Boulevard branch after Southern Boulevard-Bronx Zoo which would be fantastic to have a branch like that take you to the beginning of the Bronx Zoo. And if they’re interested in this in the future having 2nd Avenue 7th Avenue and Lexington Avenue lines all at the old South Ferry station for the 2nd Avenue Subway it’ll be after Hanover Square for Lexington Avenue it’ll be after Bowling Green and for 7th Avenue it’ll still be after Rector Street just for old fashioned commuters that originally took the 2nd Avenue and 3rd Avenue elevated lines to have an old time sake era and including for 7th Avenue line commuters but new for Lexington Avenue line commuters
You know, about the IRT lines in the Bronx, is it still possible to convert the single-island-platformed terminal stations into double-island-platformed ones? For example, if the Pelham Express service were to be extended further to Pelham Bay Park, would it be feasible to convert the Pelham Bay Park terminal station with two island platforms like Main Street station? And about the 125th Street extension, is it feasible to extend the line further west to Bergen County and terminate it at Fort Lee?
Please do Utica, there's too many situations right now pointing to that being the next "no-brainer" for how much it can snowball into. If the IRT extension is chosen, that's a (semi) immediate filling of a long standing rapid transit desert, buffs to the IRT system as it forces the horror that is Rogers Junction to get reigned in, and giving purpose to the 5 line as more than a filler line assuming de-interlining is performed in the Bronx to get rid of the nasty 149th Street curve. If IND is chosen (and honestly, it kinda should), that's an immediately more exciting bit as you now know there'd be a southern Brooklyn terminus to the *current* 2nd Av Subway (which ideally gets its phase 3 & 4 more scrutinized and redeveloped) and in an ideal circumstance gets itself re-routed south of 63rd St along 3rd Ave to better hit the midtown central business district until Houston St where it curves east with a stop at Ave C or so, goes under the river to Williamsburg then curves south under Montrose Av L before going south on Stuyvesant (to the Myrtle J/M/Z station) then south the remaining portion of Malcolm X Blvd-Utica Avenue. These B division trains would be greatly appreciated for their higher capacity while moving through some surprisingly dense portions of southeastern Brooklyn, farther stop spacings which would promote higher speeds on the line, and the use of a line that would run along 2nd/3rd Aves would provide riders with that same East Side Manhattan access that Lexington would without overcrowding the already busiest (year over year) line in the system with a new explosion of ridership. Can't argue against the core points of the video's arguments about how to get the most out of Bronx capacity but I'm also glad to see that the Throgs Neck extension plan for the SAS seems to be the one that makes the most sense. Bronx wants more crosstown lines than anything else at this point and that line along with a Co-Op City pair extension for the Concourse Line and the Pelham Line seem like the best things for that.
In all honestly, we really don’t need an IND Utica Av Line at all, given that the need for it no longer exists and the Utica Avenue Line will not overcrowd Lexington Avenue (given that most B46 SBS riders are going to the Lexington Avenue Line).
@@TheRailLeaguerI argue that it is needed, as it will provide Utica with a full trunk worth of capacity, and have the opportunity to relieve congestion off of the L (the only overcrowded Brooklyn subway line). The IRT extension should be built first, but at the same time as an extension from a 3rd Avenue Subway (to replace Phases 3 & 4 of SAS).
@@daniel_teplitsky07 Maybe, though I don’t really see a need for Utica Avenue Line north of Eastern Pkwy. The ridership numbers through Bed-stuy and southern Williamsburg don’t really impress me that much and even if the population were to continue to grow, i honestly don’t see a need for it at any point. Also any plans for Phase 3 and 4 of SAS or a 3rd Avenue Subway or whatever should solely be used to bolster service on the Fulton Street IND, which quite honestly is in desperate need of new train capacity. I do want to see some changes to Jamaica Line service to at least encourage some riders to switch (my Nassau-8th Avenue connection plans come to mind).
@@TheRailLeaguer Fulton Street does not need new capacity, it’s a weak line. Northern Williamsburg is in need of new capacity however, hence my Utica-3rd Avenue Line.
@@daniel_teplitsky07 I kinda disagree especially as a daily A and C train commuter. 23-30 trains per hour combined in one direction is not enough, and this is a line that has four tracks straight from the get go and operates within a half mile from the nearby Eastern Pkwy Line. Quite honestly linking the SAS (or Third Avenue Line) to Fulton Street could also help simplify service in Queens, provide additional capacity over there, and with new direct East Side access, could potentially siphon quite a number of riders off Eastern Pkwy, leaving room for those who really need it.
Honestly, if people still want the T to go to the Bronx, just let it stop at 125th Street via separate platforms first. Then, fix everything in the Bronx. Have new extensions in Brooklyn, like the Utica Ave Subway, even with the T to Brooklyn [Red Hook with the 1 to Staten Island, while the 1 heads to Sunset Park]. The T going to the Bronx will be the last project to tackle, and it can vary to either Throgs Neck, or 3rd Avenue.
Millions of people wants this 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line to come back to south Bronx Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx. The 6 Pelham line is definitely gonna be extended to co op city mall I tell you that right now. The Q T trains is definitely gonna be extended to East Harlem and west side across 125 street to connect to the 1 Broadway line I'm telling you. Eventually the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line will definitely have both. One elevated between Gun hill road Clearmount Tremont Webster Boston road Bronx and 139 street going under ground.
@@leecornwell5632 Good grief, you keep shoving down this same opinion on multiple comments. I get it, you want it to happen, but let's look at this rationally. Spending a lot of money on a line that just goes to one corridor is not the way to go, as that costs around $10B (even if you make it above grade, which, good luck for finding the perfect tunneling point, would cost $3B), especially if there are ways to achieve nearly the same thing in a cost-effective manner. Keep in mind, this is taking account the cost of Phase 1 of the 2nd Avenue Subway, not with Phase 2, which the latter is more expensive, making a 3rd Avenue Subway to write a wrong be a burden in cost, despite good intentions. This is why people mention about introducing regional rail to Metro-North (similar to the S-Bahn). It will come with infill stations on the Harlem Line in 149th, 168th, Claremont, 183rd, etc., be run at 15TPH (it will be possible because new trains will be built to accommodate), and it would be fully local. It would essentially be nearly the same as having the 3rd Avenue Subway, but cheaper. With this, you could also have a straight shot express to Manhattan and you could transfer onto the 2nd Avenue or Lexington Avenue subways to ride local on the East Side, or take the 2nd Avenue Subway to Saint Nicholas Avenue to ride local on the West Side. Then, whatever saved costs you have, once deinterlining is taken care of, a tunnel to Throgs Neck can be done to fill in one of the last dead zones in the Bronx.
That one? I am not sure. It depends on the frequency of the Montague Street Tunnel, provided if either the (R) or (W) [either choice is possible, considering that I have no Broadway service at Queens Boulevard] goes to Astoria. If it is not too high, then that is possible, but I personally had it do something else, which is a subway to Staten Island via Red Hook, where there is a cross transfer between the (T) and the (1).
Either using the Montague connection, or the one provided for just north of Grand/Christie street, will very seriously overload the master tower at DeKalb avenue!
Now you have a problem with the 3 train which yard will maintain it the reason why it terminates on New Lots Avenue is to give it a yard for maintenance. Saint Nicholas Avenue how to spell build connections to the tracks at 135th Street that way if 8th ave line between 145th and 59th streets are blocked there is another way for the B & D trains to reach 6th Avenue by running the east side 2nd Ave and merge with the F at Lexington Avenue 3rd Street also known as 59th Street on the IRT system
@@williamerazo3921 does it have a shop facility to Maintain trains or not? Remember New Lots Avenue Yard 3 train has a shop building for train maintenance
Unionport Yard and the 239th St Yard: Am I a joke to you? Also, the 125th St to Central Park West Connection is a completely unrealistic idea. You either have an insanely sharp curve with a station at 125th St and St. Nicholas Ave, which will cut capacity, or forgo 125th St all together to have a smoother curve to serve 145th St, but you made the 125th St crosstown line completely unaccessible to riders below 135th St.
@@jointransitassociation Thanks for telling me about that and speaking of 125th st crosstown how will you make it connect to 8th ave line 59th 145th section?
@@EpicThe112 I would just end the Second Ave subway at 125th St and St. Nicholas Ave. Here, northern and southern Manhattan commuters would just transfer to where they need to go. I don't think extending the Second Ave subway north past 125th St will be useful, because if you are a northern Manhattan commuter and you want to get to the east side, you would just transfer at 125th.
To fix and expand the A Division, I propose this: The 2 and 5 can continue running together along the White Plains Road line, but we can have the 5 just skip 149th Street-Grand Concourse and instead meet up with the 2 at 3rd Avenue-149th Street via a brand new connection. The current connection between 138th Street and 149th Street will therefore be abandoned as it will no longer be needed. We will also connect the 3 to the Jerome Avenue Line to run with the 4 up to Bedford Park Boulevard-Lehman College. Both 167th Street and Bedford Park Boulevard will be converted into express stations, especially BPB so it can serve as a proper terminus for 3 trains. The extension will start off at Harlem-148th Street, and head upwards along Frederick Douglass Boulevard up to 155th Street for a transfer to the B and D. It’ll then run under the Harlem River towards Jerome-Anderson Avenues-Yankee Stadium (transfer to the B, D, and 4) before finally connecting with the 4 at 167th Street. As for Nostrand Avenue, I propose killing off Rogers Junction entirely by having the 1 and 6 run along new branches connecting to the line. The 1 and 6 will run via new tunnels underneath the East River to meet up at Jay Street-MetroTech (with transfers to the A, C, F and R), after which they will run along Myrtle Avenue, up to Bedford Avenue, after which they will descend to run along Nostrand Avenue, starting at DeKalb-Lafayette Avenues (with a transfer to the G at Bedford-Nostrand Avenues), and then connecting to the Nostrand Avenue Branch, displacing the 2 to run with the 3 to New Lots Avenue, and the 5 to run with the 4 to Crown Heights-Utica Avenue. In the future, the lines will be extended, with the 1 going further down Nostrand Avenue to Manhattan Beach Park, while the 6 splits off to run along Flatbush Avenue, towards Jacob Riis Beach.
My thoughts: 1) 2 and 5 via new connections: - The 3 won't have a maintenance yard anymore, meaning that if we have to deinterline Rogers (send the 3 to Flatbush Avenue), Lenox Yard has to be reconverted into a maintenance yard. - You would still not fix the delicate timing of the reverse-branch, known as Mott interlocking, meaning that the maximum capacity is not met here because you split the 3 from the 2, while trying to merge the 2 with the 5. - If you try to build a new connection, good luck trying to go through Metro-North and that historical site, which would balloon the cost up. - The 5 ain't really the right line since the preference for Lexington Avenue service in White Plains and Dyre Avenue is very small (78% of riders would have to transfer to the 5 during rush hours), and Dyre Avenue is not 100% pro-Lexington. - The actual way to deal with this: As mentioned in the video, a Lenox Terminal shuttle from 135th to Lenox Terminal, the 3 to Dyre Avenue, and the 5 to Jerome Avenue. 2) 3 and 4 to Jerome: - Ain't this interlining? - I am pretty sure the Lenox Avenue and Jerome Avenue tracks are not compatible with each other. - The abandoned Polo Grounds shuttle tracks are too close to Yankee Stadium, if I am not wrong, so that would be more expensive than it needs to be. - The actual way to deal with this: Look at point 1. 3) Kill of Rogers: - That is way overkill, it is not necessary whatsoever. - You are trying to get rid of a vital line for IRT trunk express lines, making this DOA. - Actual way to deal with this: As mentioned in the video, create a new connection for the 4 train to use the local tracks, while the 5 continues on express. Send the 2 and 3 to Flatbush Avenue.
Definitely the SAS 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and 149 street free transfers to the 2 5 trains. Maybe Queens plaza connecting to the 7 N W 11 trains 🚃 .
I don’t know if you have a video on it, but if possible, would you be able to go in-depth regarding the costs of construction and MTA budget and why building 3 stations on the SAS cost $1.4 billion/mile when in other developed nations, who lines are built for that money
Well, for some reason residents within the SAS line want these massive stations which hinder costs. These stations are similar to those of London than NYC, which I’m not a fan of.
The vast majority of the high costs come from union rules allowing workers to take long breaks with full pay. Furthermore, construction of ANY kind is extremely difficult in New York City, underground construction in particular, as a myriad of utilities must be relocated to allow for the construction to commence.
Definitely the 2nd av line towards throggs neck via Lafayette av sounds legit because they need service, and that 125 st shuttle crosstown is convenient as well. They should of definitely kept the 3rd av EL through Manhattan and rebuild whatever was aging and extend it via 3rd av and fordham rd in the bx to co-op city .
4/5 don’t have the slowdowns in the Bronx because they use the middle track for 4 trains while the 5 trains go Through the junction. That’s why the 4s skip 138th street
I didn't say that the 4 slows down, I said the 5 slows down at 149th St because of that C curve. And I know that is why the 4 skips 138th St, but that is not enough in my opinion. You still have a horrible reverse branching/interlining scenario up there, which still kills capacity. The extremely sharp curve only compounds the problem.
Of course the 5 slowdown at a curve because a curve but service on on the WPL is not really effective and capacity is just right but to have 2 7ave Line on WPL would be stupid because it would be overcapacity on the Broadway express
@@williamerazo3921 How would that happen? Like you will have an increase of 7 tph on the 2/3 because you eliminating both the 142nd St Junction and the 149th-GC curve.
This is a great video, and a great summary of Second Ave proposals in the Bronx. I agree with most of it... except the part about using current ridership patterns to justifying writing off SAS extensions into the Bronx. The current ridership figures and commutation patterns are a result of the legacy of the demolition of the Third Avenue El. Riders had to adjust to the loss of transit service by either moving or finding work elsewhere. The bottom line is that the Bronx was damaged by the demolition of Third Ave, and we don't need to accept that this damage is permanent. If the T was extended to a new line under Third Ave in the Bronx, the result would be a growth in new demand and as Bronx residents benefit from improved mobility. While it is true that the MetroNorth Harlem line runs close to a portion of 3rd Ave, adding new stations (restoring old stations) on the Harlem line would be difficult in some spots. Also, the new/old MetroNorth stations would have very short platforms. Furthermore, MetroNorth service would be less frequent and more expensive than subway service, hence it would not be a true substitute for extending the T under 3rd Ave to Fordham Plaza. Granted, it will be a challenge just to get Phase III of SAS built, and a Bronx extension of the T would not happen any time soon. However, we shouldn't use the current depressed conditions of the Bronx to justify keeping it depressed forever.
The problem I have with the T under 3rd Ave is cost. We are talking about billions of dollars extra here. If it is located in a rail desert, like in Northeastern Queens, sure, go for it. But it parallels the 4 track Metro North. I understand Metro North regional rail is a tricky endeavor. But what is infinitely harder is the 3rd Ave subway. It is much easier to extend the platforms and build infill stations than build an entire new subway from scratch. And through my own research, there is space for these infill stations, which means it is less tricky than you think. The hardest part will be 149th St, for the transfers to the subway, but again, if you a 3rd Ave subway, it will involve the exact same effort. Finally, regional rail in this instance means trains on the outer track make every stop. 15 tph run in the peak direction, but 5 tph run in the reverse peak. The solution is to balance them so that 15 tph run in each direction. 15 tph is a train every 4 minutes, which is more than enough to serve the 37k riders here. Riders who don't want trains that make all stops would then take trains in the inner track, which would skip all of those stations. Therefore, I think Metro North is a very good substitute. The SAS in many opinion, is better suited to go to Throgs Neck to serve an actual rail desert, and to facilitate deinterlining.
@@CR1Creative The Amtrak ROW will now be used by the New Haven branch of MetroNorth ("Penn Station Access"), which will help Bronx riders to a certain degree. But like I said about the Harlem River line, MetroNorth service is not equivalent to expanded Subway service. I do like the Burke Ave subway. One of those lines that should have been built when it was first proposed but is no longer on the MTA's radar.
@@jointransitassociation There is a major difference between the transit desert along Third Ave and the ones in Queens. Third Ave was built with high-density areas around a transit line. The transit line was taken away, and now that corridor is now one of the major areas of the city that have the intersection of high density, high poverty, and poor access to transit. On the other hand, the transit deserts in Queens (except the end of the now-demolished section of the Jamaica line) never had a transit line. They were built after the Subway stopped expanding, and for the most part they were built with car-oriented lower density. Improving the MetroNorth Harlem line might be the most achievable option in the foreseeable future, but it is not the best option for the residents in the 3rd Ave corridor. Yes, a 3rd Ave Subway would be expensive, but it would be a better use of dollars than Subway expansion in areas of Queens that don't have the density and needs that the Bronx does.
@@DeWainFeller I'm aware of that also I'm proposing my grand master plan to improve the subway system effectively and expansions of the system I'll get to that later on
@@DeWainFeller In this day and age of everything being built under the MTA, Third Avenue would be too close to Lexington Avenue to be useful also there's lots of ideas on where we can extend the SAS which there's demand for a Subway on Third Avenue and Lafayette Avenue in the Eastern Bronx. Plus for the Bronx, all the elevated lines should be replaced. None of the elevated were built with any future demand in mind (3 tracks for an express service? FOH). The first place to start should be the IRT Broadway-7th Avenue Line. I recommend replacing the last 2-3 miles of the elevated lines north of the Harlem River to be replaced by an hour extension of the underground IND Eight Avenue Line (A) train, with the line going from 207th Street to about 240th Street, with provisions for expansions north. The current (1) local train is a slow local and from 242nd Street to the Times Square/Port Authority area, it stops 24 times. With the new express (A) train option, using 240th Street as a benchmark, it would only stop 13 times, saving about 20-25 or even 30 minutes in travel times for Riverdale riders. The (1) train would then terminate at 215th Street. For yard access the 240th Street Yard would be modified to connect with the (A) train while the (1) trains would use 207th Street Yard. Another area for replacement would be the IRT Jerome Avenue Line. plus it's connection to the White Plains Road. I'd recommend replacing it with a new 4-track subway under University Avenue, with the local tracks hosting the (4) train, and the express tracks used by rerouted and extended (3) trains.
Building new subway shouldn't about taking over old lines, it should be about serving new areas. The #6 is fine. But the #5 dyre uses cars that are narrower than the original cars. And the SAS taking over the Dyre Avenue line present a transfer opportunity between the #6 and the 2/5. Connecting the South East Bronx with the Central Bronx, which does not exist today. But at least you can West Bronx connection at the southern end with the #4. And later Westside Manhattan with the "D", which opens you to more transfer opportunities. And extending both the "D" and "6" to Co-op City will change the whole way on how people use the subway in the Bronx. Thats even if they didn't include a SAS connection from the #6 to 2/5.
The fact that they plan to send the SAS back to the westside. Not only does it not make practical sense, it was a slap in the face to Bronx residence. The Bronx is intergal with Manhattan and to not include it just insane.
Here how to Fix the A Divison The (1) and (6) are already 100% Deinterlined But All that the (6) needs is CBTC and converting the Westchester Square station into a express station and reconfiguring the tracks that delay would be gone as currently locals and expresses at Parkchester have to merge in front of one another causing delays To Deinterline 149th GC This would involve the 142nd Street Junction and the 135th Street station getting reconfigured the current Southbound platform would be converted for shuttle trains while the current Northbound platform would be converted into an island platform while the Bronx Bound Track would be moved to the East serving the (2) and (3) trains. 149th street GC station would get expanded to accommodate the transfering commuters. With the (3) getting extended to the Bronx taking over service to the Dyre Aveune Line, while the (5) will become a support line for the (4) up to Bedford Park Boulevard which should get reconfigured into a 4-track line to accommodate short turn terminating (5) trains on the outer tracks while (4) trains would continue to Woodlawn on the Inner tracks, as Woodlawn can only handle 24 TPH. While this is controversial, this would be better than waiting 6 minutes for a (5) train that ends up getting delayed at 149th Street GC and end reverse branching on White Plains south of East 180th Street Meanwhile the C curve past the 149th GC station would be eliminated which causes delays To Deinterline Rogers Junction this would involve adding two new switches this would send both the (2) and (3) trains down to Flatbush Avenue, and by sending (4) trains Local to New Lots and the (5) trains Express to Crown Hts and adding new interlockings around Franklin Aveune and Flatbush Avenue to avoid conflict between the (2), (3), (4) and (5), with this the (2) and (5) may no longer share a fleet. The final piece of the puzzle here is to bulid tail tracks past Flatbush Avenue to make this station a better/more efficient terminal to handle more trains Improvements (1): Install CBTC on the entire line and shut down nearby stations at (18th and 28th street stations) for faster service speeding up commutes (2/3): The (3) will become a supplementary service for the (2) at White Plains Road those extra (3) trains can be turned into express trains for faster service and speeding up commutes at White Plains Road (4/5): The (5) will essentially become a filler line for the (4) until the Utica Avenue Subway and the 3rd Ave El replacement project gets built (6): By converting the Westchester Square Station into an express station and reconfiguring the tracks combined with CBTC this would solve the merging/bottle necks at Parkchester that delay will be gone
why dose the 125th steet etension only go to srt nicholas and a not all the way up at lest the one at brodway anf maybe even under ninth avenuie all the way to the gorge washington bus terminal to meet busse into both the bron and norther jersy.
Must be some issues with connecting it with the 1 train at Broadway due to geographical issues. There’s a vanshnookenraggen post that talks about this too.
I prefer only 1 branch into The Bronx, as the should run via the BMT Concourse Line (under the IND Concourse Line) to Crotona Park-Wilkins Avenue. The should serve its entire length, while the (Y) should terminate at 149th Street-Grand Concourse. The & (T) should run to Manhattanville-Saint Clair Place via 2nd Avenue local. The & (I) should run onto the IND Broadway Line (Queens) & run express on the IND Queens Boulevard Line. The should run express on the IND Rockaway Line, while the (I) is all local by terminating at Forest Park-Myrtle Avenue. The should also run via the BMT Nassau Street Line onto the Brooklyn Bridge, the rebuilt BMT Fulton Street Elevated Line, BMT Canarsie Line, rebuilt BMT Liberty Avenue Elevated Line, IND Merrick Elevated Line, & to Island Park-Austin Boulevard via 2nd Avenue express, Fulton Street Elevated local, Canarsie local, Liberty Avenue Elevated local, Merrick local, & Island Park local. The (Y) should terminate at Springfield Boulevard. The should run to Staten Island via BMT 2nd Avenue local & BMT North Shore Subway semi-express to Bloomfield-Edward Curry Avenue. The (T) should terminate at Saint Joseph’s Avenue. If you noticed the BMT North Shore Subway, the North Shore Branch of the Staten Island Railroad should also be reactivated. The & (I) should both terminate at Battery Park.
You have good interlining and Second Avenue and other subway extension ideas and I think they should be implemented but I have additional ideas: 1) there should be a Skytrain running from Co-op City over to the west side of the Bronx and into Manhattan via Pelham Bay Parkway and Fordham Road. Where Fordham Road narrows, the Skytrain can go underground. 2) The existing three 'S' Train shuttles are all Grey Lines. My suggestion is to change the bullet and line color from Grey to the same color of the line each shuttle branches from, to wit: the Times Square Grand Central shuttle would be 🟣 Purple, The Franklin Avenue shuttle would be 🍊 Orange or 🟡 Yellow, The Rockaway Shuttle Line would be 🔵 Blue, your IRT White Plains shuttle would be ♥️ Red, and your 125th Street shuttle would be 🟡 Yellow or 🩵 Cyan (Sky Blue). 3) Extend the Interborough Express into the Bronx and connect it to the Skytrain, making sure the IBX and the Skytrain are the same type of light rail (tram and light metro do not mix). 4) Extend the IBX under New York Harbor or over the Verrazano, interchanging or connecting to the Staten Island Railway (the latter means it would change from FRA compliant subway to which sort of light rail the IBX is. 5) If and when needed, extend the Skytrain down the West Side of Manhattan parallel to the existing 7th Avenue and Eighth Avenue tunnels.
The Second Avenue line MUST be extended into the Bronx, to eventually become part of a loop with an extension of the D train from 205th/Norwood to Co-op City. A branch of the SAS could be connected to the future Triborough Line through Queens, Brooklyn, and under the Narrows into Staten Island. NOTHING should be built along 125th street, as an active fault line exists along that corridor. It bisects the Manhattan tower of the Triborough Bridge as well as the IRT's arch over 125th street. Even the SLIGHTEST little temblor (sup'm like a 2.3 on the Richter scale) would be.... I just can't think of what'd happen for some reason....
What litteraly every bough needs (even Manhattan) needs crosstown lines. I personally find it difficult taking a M60 to the Metro North Station compare that to a Potential subway running trough 125st
Here’s my plan for extensions to the Second Avenue subway, plus a few alterations to other lines in the B Division: For my plan, we should send the T to run along 3rd Avenue in the Bronx while N and Q handle 125th Street. The V will be repurposed to run along Second Avenue local while the T and U run express. Both the N and Q will run along the 63rd Street branch, to run local north of Second Avenue, and along 125th Street, and the T and U will run along their respective branches, with the T running along 3rd Avenue while the U runs along Sedgwick Avenue. The G will be extended from Court Square to 39th Avenue-Dutch Kills to connect with the W to Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard, with a lower level at Queens Plaza. The M meanwhile will replace the F along 63rd Street (displacing the F to 53rd with the E), and the K will be reintroduced to run along 63rd Street with the M. The M will run along Northern Boulevard with the reintroduced K line, and the V will run along a new tunnel connecting between 42nd Street and Queens Plaza, replacing the M along QBL local. 36th Street converted into 6-track station, with K and M trains stopping on the outer platforms, the R and V on the inner platforms while the E and F skip the station entirely. The E and K will run along the Montague Branch and 4th Avenue Local, replacing the R and W, both of which will instead run along a connection between City Hall on the Broadway line to Fulton Street on the Nassau Street line, to Broad Street, permanently cutting the J back to Chambers Street (this will of course mean having to extend the platforms at Fulton and Broad Street to accommodate 10-car trains). In the future, a new tunnel can be built under the east river to connect the R and W to Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets, and have them running along Fulton Street local to Euclid Avenue, displacing the C to either run along Culver with the F, or via Fulton Express and replace the A to Lefferts Boulevard (the latter would probably be the better option). For trains heading into southern Brooklyn, the B and D will both run along Brighton, with the B running local to Brighton Beach while the D runs express all the way to Coney Island. The N and Q will run via 4th Avenue Express while the E and K run local. The N will stay on Sea Beach while E runs with the Q along West End, down to Bay Parkway, while the Q continues on to Coney Island. The K will replace the R to Bay Ridge-95th Street. Lastly, we have Central Park West. Both the A and C will run local, and the B and D will run express. The C will run along Grand Concourse with the D up to Bedford Park Boulevard, while the D continues on to run via an extension along Burke Avenue with the T to Co-Op City-Bay Plaza. B trains will run to Inwood-207th Street, cutting the A back to 168th Street. As for yard assignments, the T will use Concourse Yard while the D is reassigned to Coney Island with the B, N, and Q. The U will use a newly constructed yard underneath Van Cortlandt Park. The R will be assigned to Pitkin Yard, and the G and W will use a newly constructed yard at Astoria since it will have to share its equipment with the W at Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard. The E, F, and V will use Jamaica Yard, and the K and M will also have a newly constructed in Bayside, Queens.
@@alexthemtaandr211weatherfa2what would your alternative be? I’m not really a big fan of taking the R off of Queens Boulevard, but I do think we could send the N to run along 2nd Avenue and have the G take its place along the Astoria branch, as it only carries air on 60th Street. That, and have it skip 49th Street. Plus the G could use some extra fresh air.
@NYC_Pokemon_Fanyour plan seems pretty nice, but I’m really not a big fan of kicking the R off of Queens Boulevard. I’m not a big fan of killing off the W again either because to be honest, Broadway just felt pretty empty without it. Plus I’m not too sure about having 4th Avenue being assigned only to one main trunk line, so I’d rather keep the B and D there, and have another line use South 4th Street (though personally I do think that empty shell could find another use, possibly as part of replacing both Hewes and Lorimer Street stations on the J and M with a brand new one at Union Avenue for an in-system transfer to the G. The only line I am willing to kill off however would be the Z. Skip-stop service has proven to be unreliable as it doesn’t save that much time, and only causes delays. I could, however, have the Z run along a new main trunk line on 5th Avenue, while also introducing other lines, such as the X and Y. The Z can run with the J along the BMT Jamaica line, but can split off from it after Broadway Junction to run with the L to Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway. After Bowery, the line can meet up with the Y (which will originate at World Trade Center using the former E train platform; the E and K will use the Worth Street branch provision to connect to the Montague branch) at 8th Street, and run local with the Y while the X (Which originates at State Street-Battery Park) runs express. Heading into the Bronx, after 133rd Street, the X will run express along the Sedgwick Avenue line while the U runs local, and the Y will run local along 3rd Avenue while the T runs express, meaning that both Sedgwick and 3rd Avenue will use 4 tracks. The Z will terminate at 125th Street-Marcus Garvey Park, but during rush hours will run with the Y along 3rd Avenue local. The Y will split off from the T after Mosholu Parkway to run along Webster Avenue, up to Nereid Avenue (for a transfer to the 2; rush hour Z trains will terminate at 233rd Street), while X trains will terminate at Gun Hill Road while U trains continue onward to Woodlawn (with a transfer to the 4).
@@VinceHere98 Your Manhattan Bridge Pelham and Nassau street plan is a racist hate crime. You will not destroy the beloved B D R in favor of that disgusting ass SAS T U AND FAKE ASS TRAITOROUS V TRAIN.
I feel like they really did Phase 1 of the SAS dirty, because they did not factor in the reverse-branching issue. In my opinion, I think this should be handled, taking the first phase into account: - Lower-level platforms for the (T) with the Phase 1 stations: Considering that the (Q) and (T) should not intersect at the 63rd Street junction, and the (Q) uses the current platform level, the (T) should have its own set of tracks, and we cannot really build them at the same level anymore. Hence, I propose the Phase 1 stations having a lower level. - 2 island platforms and 4 tracks for 106th and 116th: When the SAS was first thought of, it was meant to be a 4-track layout. The outer tracks would be used by the (Q) and the inner tracks would be used by the (T) connected from the lower level of Phase 1. This would allow cross-platform transfer for services between 125th Street crosstown and a future Bronx service. This should be done in Phase 2. - 2 platforms for 125th Street: The 125th Street station going west is facing the east-west direction. This makes the Bronx connection infeasible as it would require a sharp curve to turn to the Bronx. As a result, I think it is best that the (T) should have its own platform. The (Q) can take Crosstown, while the (T) would serve 125th Street or a future Bronx service between 2nd and 3rd Avenues [as opposed to the (Q) being 3rd and Lexington Avenues]. This should be done within Phase 2. - Complete the other 2 phases: Honestly, I think it should be in one phase, but whatever. - Future Bronx service: Only after frequencies increase in the Bronx, then we can think of future Bronx service from 125th Street and northwards. It can either be Third Avenue or Throgs Neck. This is just what I have in mind. There are other proposals where they cut the SAS in two, which one of them had the (T) in Inwood Local, but that is all I can think of. Then again, I am no subject-matter expert.
If the Second Ave subway had connections with the Dyre Avenue line, this would have meant service to Manhattan 24/7 instead of shuttle service to East 180 Street late nights. I know this would never become a reality now with the plans they have for the Second Ave line.
@@CraigFThompson too short of a line to have express service. Also, the old railroad section which was part of NYW&B where the Second Ave subway would have operated has been torn down for apartment buildings.
The original 2 Avenue Subway Plan was to have it recapture the entire IRT Pelham Bay Park Line from 3 Av-138 Street to its current Pelham Bay Park Terminal, PLUS a very short extension into Co-op City as well. Also at the current Hunts Point Avenue Station they planned to punch a hole into the walls to connect up to the Dyre Avenue Line which was the former NY Westchester & Boston Railroad ran prior to its 1937's abandonment. Also, the entire IRT Pelham Bay Line was originally built to BMT/IND standards,m and can handle 10 foot wide subway cars while the other parts of the IRT cannot. This would help relieve the overcrowding and congestion on the existing IRT Lexington Avenue line, by removing the Dyre Avenue and Pelham Bay Lines from same, and free-up space for the Jerome Av and White Plains Road Lines to operate more efficiently on the Lex instead. Their current 2 Avenue stubway plan does absolutely NOTHING to relieve the overcrowding and congestion on the Lex, and will only make matters worse.
What about the second avenue line on the (F) line ?! There’s a middle track that has been “closed off “ for years!?! If the “extension “ were to exist then MTA needs to bring back the 3rd avenue EL AND the culver shuttle ( extend that line to Coney Island)
There should be only 2 lines off 2nd av thru the Bronx, 1 on 3rd av to fordham rd and the other branching off on 163rd st to throggs neck via Lafayette av. Q to fordham and T to throggs neck (updated suggestion)
IT would have been so much cheaper to end 6 express service and rename it the 8 line. Then build a tunnel after 125th and lex that lead to the 2nd ave line and send the pelham 8 express train down 2nd ave. I also agree with making the 4 and 5 train to woodlawn, 2 to 241st, 3 to dyre, 9 train to 148th st.
I don’t have a big issue with the Second Avenue Subway running across 125th Street. An extension into the Bronx? That ship sailed long ago. I do have an issue with a small portion of a de-interline argument you make here about the 5. You can stand on the platform at 149-GC during am rush hour and see that every 5 train has a rush hour load going to Lexington Avenue. Half of those trains are coming from Dyre, the other half from White Plains or 238. Rush hour 5’s generally don’t have to wait at 149, as 4’s use the middle track bypassing 138 and merging south of there. It’s still a slow move going from upstairs to downstairs, but not as dire as you want it to seem. I also don’t think you want to ask all those Lexington bound 2/5 corridor passengers to climb the stairs to the Woodlawn corridor 4 platform. Train operation better, customer operation a decline.
For 149th, it would be better to build a new flyover track that links the Jerome Avenue 4 line directly to the White Plains Road Line at 3rd Avenue-149th Street, effectively allowing the 5 to bypass 149th Street-Grand Concourse and travel at faster speeds between 125th Street and 3rd Avenue-149th Street, while still keeping operations for those guys.
That’s because a 5 shows up every 6-8 minutes. And it is not White Plains I am worried about. It’s ridership is fine. I am more worried about Lexington and how crowded those trains can get. That reverse branch kills capacity. There is a reason why I said expanding 149th Grand Concourse, with a new transfer to Metro North (when regional rail gets implemented), is necessary.
@@larryd2439 Actually deinterlining for Nostrand is a realistic idea, especially since it benefits a lot of people and doesn’t have too many negative impacts.
@@TheRailLeaguer realistic? Perhaps…but you need to realize the benefit of a one seat ride. This is very important and one of the reasons the 5 was sent back to Flatbush after years of being cut back to Bowling Green middays.
Why not build long high capacity light rail across the Bronx? 2 or more lines across the borough could spread connectivity between all the lines and boost local growth. It'd cost a fraction of a New York subway and be more substantial than bus priority or true BRT 🤔
They should have the a 8 and the q/new 2nd ave v train on the third avenue line for with 8 being local and q/v being express, express would join the d and go up to co up and the 8 would terminate at Fordham Uni
They definitely need to bring back the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and Batincal gardens Frordam plaza and Battery park place or south Ferry. The Pelham 6 line is definitely gonna be extended to co op city mall barto Bronx i deffinley tell you that right now. Eventually they are definitely gonna bring back the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line powder blue 🔵.I'm telling you.
Of course you know that the Connecticut metro North railroad is definitely gonna come from Pennsylvania station Manhattan Hunts point moriss parkchester and co op city. Eventually they are definitely gonna be extended the 6 Pelham line to co op city mall barto Bronx once they finish up four stations from the Connecticut metro. The T Q trains are definitely gonna be extended further to East Harlem and west side across 125 street to connect to the 1 Broadway line. They are definitely making enough room for the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line to come back to south Bronx Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx to connect to the 2 5 trains and the BX 15 BX 41 buses. The 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line will definitely start at Gun Hill Rd and Batincal gardens Frordam plaza and Battery park place or south Ferry to connect to the 1 9 N R W trains. By the way the 1 Broadway line is definitely getting exstend to Redhook Brooklyn.
No. Because one the T is definitely gonna be at Harlem 125 street 4 5 6 and the metro North railroad. Another thing is definitely gonna the Q T will definitely run west side 125 then 137 street connecting to the 1 Broadway line. They minds well better bring the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and connect to the 7 N W 11 trains. Let the 6 Pelham line be extended to co op city. Bring the 10 trains to Hunts point Throggs neck village Bronx elevated
No. Because one the T is definitely gonna be at Harlem 125 street 4 5 6 and the metro North railroad. Another thing is definitely gonna the Q T will definitely run west side 125 then 137 street connecting to the 1 Broadway line. They minds well better bring the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and connect to the 7 N W 11 trains. Let the 6 Pelham line be extended to co op city. Bring the 10 trains to Hunts point Throggs neck village Bronx elevated
@@leecornwell5632 We can literally just run the Q to the west while the T runs into The Bronx. The cross connector wouldn't need a crap ton of trains because it would only be handling short east to west trips. There are already a ton of different ways to enter Manhattan North to South.
By converting Metro North into Regional Rail, you can recreate Third Ave el service levels. If you are interested, I have a video dedicated to taking about the Third Ave el Replacement Project. th-cam.com/video/Sjc69tLyEAw/w-d-xo.html
You could definitely make the same exact stops that the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line used to run between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx. My opinion is to add a extra New iRt line to run on the Third Ave Elevated line is they could definitely use the 10 trains between Gun hill road Clearmount Avenue and 138 street because the Q T trains are definitely booked because after 116 street it's gonna definitely curve left to Harlem 125 street and then apparently the Q T trains will definitely run west side 125 and the then 137 street to connect to the Broadway 1 line I'm telling you. What you are definitely saying wich is 100% true. The MTA definitely needs to fucus on bringing the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back where it was because millions and millions of people are still screaming for this Thrid Avenue Elevated line to come back I'm telling you .
However the platforms for a bmt may be too close to each other. So its best to make a shuttle between Broadway and Lexington Avenue at 125th street. I do improve your idea but you're going to have a similar concept with the current concourse line being only 1 track limits Express service also i think that 161st Street should be an island platform. I do agree with you on the second Avenue line having 4 not 2, along with other plans.
@@jointransitassociationof course having the 5 on Jerome means limit on Express service and you would need to expand the the tracks to 4 as Jerome has only 1 track similar to the concourse line.
@@ECRALSE40LPS It doesn't need all day express service. Peak direction is fine, and I don't think Jerome really needs an express service at the moment as ridership on the line has been trending downwards. I am proposing that track layout in the event when we do need that express, so that the local can terminate without interfering the express.
@@jointransitassociationHowever for the b and n service unchanged. For the d and q they would swap places. The w would take over the current r trains route and ended somewhere in queens as the w needs somewhere to terminate. For sea beach we would like Express service as the would need island platforms at new utrecht Avenue- 62nd Street for a change to west end line.
@@ECRALSE40LPS Rider preference on Brighton is Broadway, so I will give them the N/Q over the B/D. On 4th Ave, it doesn't matter what they get, because they have both 6th Ave and Broadway. Sea Beach does not need an express. Firstly, 15 tph is not enough to create an express service and second, you are cutting capacity to the 8 or so other stations on the line, and some of those stations, 8th Ave and Bay Pkwy, see high ridership. But if you have those stations as express, along with New Utrecht, the time savings are minimal. Just have an all local Sea Beach service. A final note is that when the MTA created the NX service, which skipped all the stations on Sea Beach, not a lot of people used it. You might say that is more 1968, but when the MTA rehabilitated Sea Beach and made the N skip a bunch of stations, riders complained. So Sea Beach express service is not popular.
The T trains would be to big to Nereid Ave. They better off bringing back the 8 trains to Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and Batincal gardens Frordam plaza and Battery park place or south Ferry under ground on Thrid Avenue because there's is no trains on Thrid Avenue.
The IND did not really need 6th Avenue. They were already two lines on 6th Avenue. 1) Path and 2) An elevated line that is long gone. But the service on the BMT Broadway is superior to Anything on the 6th Avenue. West 4th is just a major complex to provide flexibility of service amongst these lines. It does not have the same importance as Times Square and Union Square for passengers. I bring this up, because these were very expensive projects, when service already existed there. And the fact that the money used for this project could have been used for building the entire SAS. Not like we have today, but as a 4 track cut and cover tunnel. This is where most of our medical centers lie and we still don't have a subway to these places.
Technically the 6th Avenue Line was needed due to the fact that the Concourse Line was included in the original IND and the Queens Blvd Line as well. Specifically in a Vanshnookenraggen post: The city formed the Board of Transportation to plan and build the new system. The 8th Ave Line would form the backbone of the system, with the Crosstown Line forming a large loop between 8th Ave, Brooklyn, and Long Island City, Queens. The initial plans called for the Crosstown Line to have a wider arc than it does today: running under State St or Atlantic Ave to Hanson Place, then down Gates Ave to Throop Ave, up Throop to Union Ave and on to Manhattan Ave. Once in Queens it would loop back to Manhattan via 53rd St. The 1922 proposal for an 8th Ave subway called for connecting the IRT Flushing Line to the trunk to run those trains downtown. The IND copied this plan by proposing a Queens line of their own. BMT trains coming from Coney Island were still bottlenecked by DeKalb Ave, so the IND proposed recapturing the BMT Culver Line via a new subway though South Brooklyn and Park Slope (IND Smith-9th Line as it was originally called.) To make sure the Bronx would support the plan, a branch of 8th Ave was proposed to run along the Grand Concourse. In order for all of these trains to work efficiently, a second subway under 6th Ave was proposed. What had once been a simple new subway line was now an entire network. And the IND hadn’t even broken ground yet.
@@qolspony That would’ve been impractical since 2nd Avenue also needed to be a full trunk line to be effective as well. Without the 6th Avenue Line (which is technically part of the 8th Avenue Line ad well), you might as well cut both the Concourse Line and the Queens Blvd Line. In fact, what the city did is correct.
@@TheRailLeaguer It was all about putting the BMT and IRT out of business. And nothing about improving service. Besides, how do you improve service when the BMT and IRT already existed in the area? Anyway, the line leading through central park west, although I would have chosen Columbus Avenue. But Columbus isn't a straight path into St. Nicholas Avenue. The old elevated line was better situated into the community (Columbus and 8th Avenue) though. Than we get 53rd Street, which is ok. A better idea would have been 57th or 50th Street (especially) as this would have connected every line that it crosses. Anyway, I don't know how anyone would build a case for 6th Avenue, when 2 services (3 if you include path) already existed. This is compared to a full 2nd Avenue 4 track line. I could even Invision an Avenue C branch with all the money used to tunnel under the PATH. So out of this we got a connection at 34th Street with the BMT, which could have been 57th or 49th Street. And nothing in between. What we would have gotten was a full crosstown consisting of three lines B/D/E. B/D serving 2nd Avenue and E serving 8th Avenue. We really didn't get much out of this deal. And as always, city (transit) planers blew us out of a whole lot of cash.
@@qolspony None of what you’re saying is 100% true, except for the IRT and BMT going out of business Also, the 6th Avenue Subway was actually needed to make the Concourse Line and Queens Blvd Line work more effectively. There’s no other way to do it without severely compromising service on 8th Avenue or the other corridors, including the Crosstown Line. That is the biggest case FOR the 6th Avenue Line. Meanwhile at the time there was literally zero need for a Second Avenue Subway. It was better to just build the 8th Avenue Line AND the 6th Avenue Line. THEY’RE ONE CORRIDOR. You need to get your head out of your damn ass and realize that. Just give up your stupid argument already. Nobody got screwed out a lot, and not a lot of cash was blown. Building the 6th Avenue Line was the correct choice.
My Response at first i was hesitant to Deinterline White Plains But after some thoughts about to what Mystic Transit said about we should sacrifice capacity for one seat rides and i disagree after watching TTA's reverse branching video the whole way throigh now i support Deinterlining White Plains
@@TMC_BC165 Okay, I have some questions for you. How is the 2/3 combined running at 20 tph and the 4/5 combined running at 24 tph not broken? How is the at-grade junction at 142nd St and Rogers Ave not broken? How is the IRT running at around 70 percent capacity not broken? When did I ever advocate physically destroying the IRT? Because the language that you used is extremely strong to the point where you are implying that I am destroying the IRT physically, as stated that "destroying landmarks is an act of war." Finally, why are you impersonating TMC? And before you brush it off, then answer this, why does your account say "Joined Dec 27, 2021", when TMC has been around for much longer since 2021? I will have more respect for you if you used your own account, not an impersonator account, to state your opinions.
@@TMC_BC165 Listen you imposter, I don’t know who you are but I know you’re not the real TMC. This plan is just A PROPOSAL! Don’t take it THAT seriously!! I highly disagree with many points of this video but I don’t be posting stupid shit like this on the internet. If you don’t like these type of videos, THEN JUST DON’T WATCH THEM!!! Why the hell are you continuing to watch videos that you explicitly made clear that you hate? At this point you’re just a troll that wants attention. Get a life man.
@@jointransitassociation Well 20 TPH means that 2/3 each have 10 TPH that’s 6 minutes and 24th means that 4/5 each have 12 TPH that’s 5 minutes both which are good timing. PS: you never say anything about the deinterlining Nassau street
I was thinking the 8 and 10 trains be going to towards Dyre Avenue but the 8 heading up towards Van Cortlandt Park-242nd Street on a new lower level platform several feet above Broadway and have a free transfer to the Beeline 1 Bus from 242nd Street to Tarrytown, then having in Brooklyn having the 2, 8, and 10 trains run to Flatbush Avenue at Brooklyn College and the 3,4, and 5 trains running to New Lots Avenue, also having Metro North also run to 149th Street, 138th Street, 170th Street, 167th Street, 176th Street, 183rd Street, West Kingsbridge, East Kingsbridge, 116th Street, 110th Street, 103rd Street, 96th Street, 86th Street, 77th Street, 68th Street, 59th Street, 51st Street, new lower level at Grand Central-42nd Street, new lower level at 34th Street-Penn Station for all LIRR and MNRR branches and a new Flushing branch parallel with the 7 train for the LIRR but having a terminus terminal at Penn Station for the proposed LIRR Flushing Branch by me, 28th Street, 23rd Street, 18th Street, 14th Street, Astor Place, Bleeker Street, Spring Street, Canal Street, Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, Fulton Street, Wall Street, Bowling Green, Borough Hall, Hoyt Street, Nevins Street, Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center, Bergen Street, Grand Army Plaza, Eastern Parkway-Brooklyn Museum, Franklin Avenue, President Street, Sterling Street, Winthrop Street, Beverly Road, Newkirk Avenue, Flatbush Avenue, Nostrand Avenue, Kingston Avenue, Crown Heights-Utica Avenue, Sutter Avenue, Saratoga Avenue, Rockaway Avenue, Junius Street, Pennsylvania Avenue, Van Siclen Avenue, New Lots Avenue, East 105th Street, and Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway, and even having a Rockaway Park-Beach 116th Street, a Rockaway Boulevard, and a new terminal at Far Rockaway for the Far Rockaway Branch shuttle after Rockaway Park-Beach 116th Street, also adding in the same route on the IRT 1 line to South Ferry on Metro North parallel with the IRT 1 line until 238th Street, then heading to Riverdale-242nd Street somewhere further away from the IRT 1 line on Broadway
The 9 trains could definitely work with the 1 Broadway line between 256 street Broadway Riverdale Ave Elevated and Redhook Brooklyn. The 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx could definitely be extended to Battery park place or south Ferry under ground in Manhattan connecting to the 1 9 R W trains.
To Maximize Capacity by Deinterlining Lines Service should run as follows: -(A): Norwood 205th St to WTC via Concourse Lcl/CPW Lcl/8th Avenue Lcl -(B): Inwood 207th St to Coney Island via CPW Express/6th Avenue Express/4th Avenue Express (Sea Beach) -(C): Jamaica 179th Street to Lefferts Blvd/Far Rockaway Via Queens Blvd Express/53rd Street Tunnel/8th Aveune Express/Fulton Street Express -(D): 168th St to Bay Ridge 95th St via CPW Express/6th Avenue Express/4th Aveune Express (Local South of 36th Street) -(E): Jamaica Center to Euclid Aveune via Queens Blvd Exp/53rd Street Tunnel/8th Avenue Express/Fulton Street Local -(F): Forest Hills to Coney Island via Queens Blvd Local/63rd Street Tunnel/6th Avenue Local/Culver Express -(G): Forest Hills to Church Aveune via Queens Blvd Lcl/ Crosstown Lcl/Culver Lcl -(J): Jamaica Center to Broad Street via Jamaica Local (Rush Hour Express) -(L): 8th Avenue to Canarsie via Canarsie Local (Tail tracks past 8th Avenue) -(M): Metropolitan Aveune to Rockaway Park via Myrtle Avenue Local/Jamaica Local/6th Avenue Local/63rd Street Tunnel/Queens Blvd Local (Queenslink) (New Flyover track to Access the Myrtle Avenue Upper level) -(N): 96th Street to Coney Island via Broadway Express/Brighton Express -(Q): 96th Street to Ocean Parkway via Broadway Express/Brighton Local (New Flyover track to turn trains back to Coney Island Yard) -(R): Astoria Ditmars to Coney Island or Canal Street via Broadway Local/4th Ave Local/West End Local With this The (W) and (Z) will be killed off since they serve no purpose of existing with this (Z) trains will get absorbed into more (J) trains to Allow for Peak Direction Express Service, While (W) trains gets absorbed into more (R) trains and can terminate at Canal Street to access the lower level of City Hall to store more trains while the rest go to Coney Island via West End for (R) trains to have Yard Access
Extended subways (A): Co-op City to WTC via (Burke Avenue) (B): Co-op City to Coney Island via Fordham (Sea Beach) (C): Floral Park 268th Street to (Beach 25th Street)/Lefferts Blvd (D): 168th Street to Richmond Hill (E): Rosedale to Euclid Aveune (F): Jamaica 179th Street to Coney Island (Culver EXP) (G): Jamaica 179th Street to Church Ave (Culver Lcl) (J): Belmont Park to Broad Street (L): American Dream to Canarsie Pier via (10th Avenue) (Henry Hudson Parkway) (M): Metropolitan Aveune to Jacob Riis Park (Queenslink) (N): Gun Hill Rd to Coney Island (3rd Ave EL) (Brighton EXP) (Q): St Nicholas Avenue to Ocean Parkway via 125th Crosstown (Brighton Lcl) (R): LaGuardia Airport to Coney Island (West End) (W): LaGuardia Airport to Red Hook (Montague Tunnel) (T): Hangover Square to Co-op City (Pelham EL) the (6) will get cut back to Hunts Point Aveune
IRT Extended Subways (1): St George to Riverdale Yonkers (St George Tunnel) Replacement for Staten Island Ferry (2): Wakefield 241st to Kings Hwy (Nostrand Ave) (3): New Rochelle Iona College to Kings Hwy (Nostrand Ave) (4): Gateway Center Mall to Cross County Mall (Jerome EXP) (5): Kings Plaza to Cross Country Mall (Utica Ave) (Jerome Lcl) (6): Hunts Point Aveune to Brooklyn Bridge (7): Secaucus NJ to College Point or LaGuardia Airport (Lincoln Tunnel) (Northern Blvd) (Horace Harding Expwy)
@@CR1Creativethe D would run to Richmond Ave in Staten Island and the terminal would have tail tracks that extend to a new yard as for the 7 to LGA you’re better off extend the R there as the 7 can go to College Point and then implementRegional Rail for the Port Washington Branch between there and Grand Central which is far cheaper than the 7 train project east of Main St.
With the R we would reconfigure 25th Ave as an express station so that we can end the locals there and then build a flyover track that can turn R Trains to the Coney Island Yard.
@@Reformperson Great Idea as that can also allow for peak direction express service on West End and we should build another Flyover track after Ocean Parkway to access the Culver line to turn around more trains to Coney Island Yard
The Bronx services to and from Manhattan are over capacity currently 93 trains per hour run between the Bronx and Manhattan trains can handle about 180,000 riders per hour the bronx currently has 580,000 workers with 333,000 of them working in the four other boroughs not all of them will go to Manhattan first regional rail on metro north would help with some of the capacity constraints to Manhattan De-lnterlinig is a powerful tool to increase capacity to maximze capacity reverse branching needs to end this means that the 3 will get extended to the bronx after 149th street grand concourse 3 trains will stay with 4 trains via Jerome Aveune line up until Bedford Park Blvd To make this all happen The 142nd street junction and the 135th street station needs to be reconfigured the existing southbound platform will be converted for serving shuttle trains between 135th street to harlem 148th street while existing northbound platform converted into an island platform serving the 2 and 3 trains with this the Bronx Bound track will be moved to the east while at Bedford Park Blvd the station should get expanded to accommodate short turning 3 trains Here 3 trains can terminate on the outer tracks while 4 trains continue to Woodlawn on the inner tracks as Woodlawn can only handle 24 trains per hour
I am against the (D) going to Co Op City. What I would do, is have the 2nd Avenue Subway line to Co Op City - Boston Road line, to go along with a Throgs Neck line. I like the (5) to Woodlawn with the (4) as the distinction would be in Brooklyn to Flatbush Avenue. I like the (3) to Eastchester - Dyre, however the (2) will have to add a new (8) line. The (2) would operate between Wakefield and Utica Avenue - with the (4), while the new (8) would replace the (3) at Lenox Terminal and extend South to Flatbush Avenue, with the (5). Regarding Bronx Crosstown lines, that can be solved via (1) a Bronx to Queens line parallel to the Q44 SBS via Fordham/Kingsbridge (Bx9/Bx12/Bx22) and White Plains Road to Soundview - Clason's Point (Bx22/Bx39) before crossing the East River into College Point and follow the current Q65 (Queens Bus Redesign route Q27) and Q25/Q34 (Queens Bus Redesign Q25) to Jamaica, then extend with the (E) to Farmers - Guy R. Brewer Blvd, (2) Co Op City line built into the Rockaway Beach Branch (filling in the gap between Co Op City and Throgs Neck) to go along with the Co Op City line built into 2nd Avenue Subway, and (3) let the Concourse (D) line extend to Williamsbridge replacing the former 3rd Avenue El tracks below the White Plains Road line. Why is this? The answer is simple. The Queens line would present cross connections between the (1), (2), (4), (5), (6), (B) and (D) lines to where a person in Riverdale commuting to Schuylerville will have a more direct option than the Bx9 to West Farms Square with transfer to the Bx40/Bx42. A person at Tracey Towers going to Soundview would simply take a (4) or (5) to Kingsbridge and transfer to the Queens Line, which is much better than the Bx1/Bx2 to East Tremont Avenue for a transfer to the Bx36. A Person at Hunts Point Avenue going to Wakefield can simply link the (6) with the (2) via Parkchester using the Queens line, which is better than the Bx5/Bx19 to Westchester Avenue with transfer to the (2) or using the (6) to Parkchester with transfer to the Bx39. Also, if going to Yankee Stadium from Co Op City, you can simply use the 2nd Avenue Subway line to around East 161st Street to transfer to the Bx6 SBS. White Plains Road line customers will benefit from that with transfers to the Co Op City line at West Farms Square and East 174th Streets. With this in mind, I would have the Queens line branch to Yankee Stadium which will help fill in more service gaps.
Let the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line run on its old line Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx like they did before and 149 street Thrid Avenue Elevated connecting to the 2 5 trains free transfers.
None of what you’re saying makes any sense since having the D go to Co-op City is more practical and beneficial compared to having the 2nd Avenue Subway go there (which shouldn’t). Also we don’t need a Bronx to Queens crosstown line. The ridership potential is not there.
@@TheRailLeaguer Let me tell you something. I definitely agree that the 2nd Avenue Subway should be 4 tracks because in order to operate 4 lines on a 2 track corridor, you'll need to cut service. You may get away with 8 minute headways during Off Peak Hours on Subway lines when you operate 4 lines on a 2 track corridor, however Peak Hour service will have to be cut to every 8 minutes (at best 7.5 minutes). What does this mean for the Brighton line? It means the (B) will have to pick up the slack during Peak Hours with 5 minute headways as the (Q) won't be able to operate at a frequency higher than 7.5 minutes. This means to have 3 Second Avenue Subway lines in The bronx and 1 across 125th Street, each line will be limited to 8 minute headways during the Peak Hours. I would propose a new Madison Avenue Subway line which will accommodate a new line to Co Op City so that the frequency can be higher (somewhere between 4 and 6 minute headways). Regarding my proposed Bronx to Queens line, you do not know what potential ridership brings with the Bronx to Jamaica line. With the people frustrated with the 2 fares zones the Q44 SBS presents between Southeast Queens and Bronx areas (those who take a bus to Jamaica Center for connection to the Q44 SBS and a bus or Subway in The Bronx), or those who travel between Woodhaven and Woodlawn (with the Queens Bus Redesign extending the Q44 SBS to Fordham Plaza), the Subway line would draw people from the (1), (2), (4), (5), (6), (7), (B), (D), (E), (F), (J) and (Z) lines for this more-direct trip between The Bronx and Queens. This line will draw more Bronx residents to take jobs at Jamaica Hospital (they would transfer to (E) trains at Jamaica Center), St. John's University (they would transfer to Q46 buses at Union Tpke - Parsons Blvd), Queens College (they would simply take the Subway there), Citi Field/Arthur Ashe Stadium (they would transfer to the (7) in Downtown Flushing), JFK Airport (they would transfer to the (E)/(J)/(Z) at Jamaica Center then transfer to the AIRTRAIN), Long Island Jewish Medical Center (they would transfer to Q46 buses at Union Tpke - Parsons Blvd), and other areas in Eastern Queens and Western Nassau where they would need to connect to/from NICE Bus service. Not only that, Queens residents benefit as they now have better access to Bronx job centers than riding via Midtown Manhattan, plus the line itself gains Manhattan-bound commmuters who transfer to (7) trains in Downtown Flushing and (J)/(Z) trains in Downtown Jamaica. This is much more than what the Q44 SBS can do as a vital link between Jamaica and The Bronx (although it won't eliminate or cut the route). Also, Bronx interconnectivity is improved as Riverdale to Throgs Neck would be via this line with transfers at 225th Street/Broadway and in Soundview, rather than someone on the slower Bx9 with transfer to the Bx40/Bx42, Add a Co Op City line extended via the Rockaway Beach Branch, and now you get a line directly to LaGuardia Airport (via transfer in Soundview and Hunts Point).
@@ahmadfrw1 You seriously make no sense as none of what you propose is feasible or practical, especially your dumb Bronx to Queens lines. There’s literally no subway demand or potential for the routes your propose. You might as well stick to advocating for common sense proposals like enhancing bus service, a D train subway extension to Co-op CIty, etc, all of which would provide more ridership potential than what you propose. Also no one is proposing cutting headways on subway trains at all. Also, the ROckaway Beach Branch would be better off going to the Queens Blvd Line and into Manhattan via the 53rd and 63rd Street Tunnels. That’s more logical than your dumbass RBB to LGA and Bronx line. In fact, just step aside and let the experts handle this (and you are no expert on mass transit at all).
I really like your plans. Deinterlining the Bronx should be the #1 plans - it'll massively boost capacity and make the system more resilient without costing too much. The Utica Ave. subway can be built simultaneously. The next plan should be simultaneously building a crosstown Bronx line (many options for this), extending the subway to Co-Op city, and extending the second ave subway to Throgg's Neck. The branch to Throgg's Neck can be elevated on a concrete viaduct. I do think another branch of the SAS should continue on 3rd ave though - the El used to run there, and there is currently no subway service (only Metro-North, which lacks connections and terminates at Grand Central).
I like all the Bronx connections. Don't forget that residents of Westchester County would take public buses into the Bronx to transfer to the subway lines going into Manhattan as it's cheaper than taking Metro North. Same concept with Nassau County residents taking public buses to Jamaica to connect with the E, J, and F trains.
A lot of the Future NYC Subway planners do not think about that. With NICE Bus routes into Queens, it is more than just connecting with the Subway because they cannot afford LIRR fares. It is the Nassau County residents who work in the Borough of Queens. Considering Subway line extensions to the Queens/Nassau Border (the Far Rockaway (A) is the only current line that goes to the Queens/Nassau border at the Mott Avenue Station) NICE Bus will have to still continue operations to Downtown Jamaica and Downtown Flushing, along with the 3 routes to/from Far Rockaway. The only answer is you will need a new LIGHT RAIL Divison for Long Island to make the transition to the NYC Subway smoother as LIGHT RAIL carries more capacity, and can take more cars off the Parkways and Expressways than NICE Bus.
When we are talking Bee Line Bus routes in Westchester County, the grid is there, no dobut, however the question is funding because many of the Bee Line routes need to operate more frequently as they all generally travel in high density areas of Westchester County. A LIGHT RAIL NETWORK may bring Westchester, Putnam, Dutchess, Rockland, Orange, Sullivan and Ulser County together, along with linking areas of New York State South of Albany together. Other than the NYC Subway impact, due to people not being able to afford MetroNorth fares, I am guaranteeing you that much of the bus feeds into the NYC Subway are South of White Plains/Tarrytown and Southwest of Port Chester. Then beyond that, these are mainly Westchester County residents who work in The Bronx.
They should build the SAS with 4 tracks for more capacity. The earliest plan even had a portion with 6 tracks.
Maybe they could build the express tracks on a level just below the existing tracks.
Too late
@@robotx9285 I think that's probably the only feasible way to achieve express tracks on the SAS, since Phases 1 and 2 are two-track and running express trains on the route when the full length T line is built would be complicated, if not impractical.
@Hypestrike1 For the frequencies the trains would be running at, and the fact the stations are more spanxed put as well as near Lexington Ave Line.
Running express trains on only two tracks shared with local trains is a no go in Manhattan, especially since there will be times when the R or N gets rerouted onto second Ave.
@@robotx9285 Exactly, which is why express service on the T could only work now if a second sets of tracks were excavated below and parallel to the existing ROW under Second Avenue for them. Moreover, even if express tracks supplementing the T Train were constructed, they would not be efficient if they only ran in Manhattan without branching into the Bronx or Brooklyn, as the length of the T Train (as planned) covers a mere 8.5 miles in Manhattan alone.
Since this is not a relatively long distance, any express service would probably not be used to a capacity that makes them economically worthwhile, especially when you have the IRT express lines- with much more expansive coverage beyond Manhattan- just two blocks away.
I lived in Co-op City from 1969 (my family was among the earliest arrivals there) to 1992. And having to take a bus to the subway was a real pain. The impression I'd always had was that it was proposed that the 2nd Ave line would go to Co-op City...but we saw what happened with the on-again-off-again work on the 2nd Avenue line, and then it was "it'll never happen". Still might, but I wouldn't put serious money on it.
Nice work! I think a cool video would be exploring Andrew Lynch’s G train loop ideas as well as the creating a loop with the S train from Times to Grand, allowing for a connection to Penn Station. It seems like a lot of other Subway systems have at least 1 loop line and yeah NYC has pretty unique urban planning but I would love a video that would explore why NYC never got one and what a loop line could potentially look like in 2023
Plus I always wished there was an easy way to get to Penn froms Grand. It really feels like such a missing link imo but maybe the MTA has an answer to that that im just unaware of?
Very interestering video and thank you for linking my essay!
I have wished for the Second Avenue Subway to be built since 1967 as a child, but it was nothing but a pipe dream. Those executives were talking loud and saying nothing, and the band played on.
That last sentence is the story of modern NY, especially after 9/11. It really feels like the city should be a lot further along much more evenly than it currently is.
@@Neillan You make good sense. Thank you for typing to me.
Construction on 2 Av and E 103 Street started in 1972, as well as sections near the Manhattan Bridge for the lower section. All work STOPPED in 1976 when the DEMOCROOKS stole the funds for same, since they couldn't keep their filthy hands out of the cookie jar. In 2017 the only thing they have to show for it is the section from E 63 Street to E 96 Street and the completed tunnels from 96 St to 105 St used for train storage. Tunnels from 105 Street to 121 Street is still sits unused.
Dear Tech Transit, overall your suggestions and those of past and present plans make sense. Especially like your recommendations for the track configuration on the stations you’ve mentioned. Makes one wonder why those track arrangements have been neglected by the MTA’s scope.
A point I always miss in these discussions, is the fact that original IRT, BMT, IND lines are too Manhattan centric. For interborough transit a shift of focus towards connection between Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island and possibly even beyond borough limits should in my humble opinion become a scope to which the MTA starts investigating the possibilities. Cheerio
Since the common point is the IRT Bronx Lines and one seat rides, specifically the Jerome Avenue Line, here's a good idea to mitigate some of these issues: Complete replacement of the three track elevated structure feeding only one trunk line with a 4 track subway feeding into both the west side and east side subways, and also rebuilding the Harlem River-Lenox connection (Note: this is a long term project).
Here is the plan:
Starting at Grand Concourse and 151st Street, two new tracks would diverge from the existing three track structure, and then operate under 153rd Street. It would continue under that street, meeting up with the new tracks from the new IRT Lenox Tunnel. Past the Yankees-East 153rd Street MNRR station, it would then transition to operate under Anderson Avenue. This would require digging up the southern end of the Macombs Dam park, and a new express station would be built at 161st Street and Jerome Avenue, near the park and the western side of Yankee Stadium. At this point, we have a 4 track line hosting the (3) and (4) trains, with the (3) trains taking the express tracks and the (4) making all stops in the area like currently does on the Jerome Avenue Line. The 4-track line would then continue under Anderson Avenue, with a local stop at 167th Street, and then shift under the Edward Grant Highway to make another local stop at 170th Street.
From that point, the new line would the operate under University Avenue through the western part of the borough. The next station on the line would be an express station at 174th Street-Featherbed Lane. This station would serve crosstown buses heading to Washington Heights and the GWB Bus Terminal to the west, and, like other stations on the line, it would also serve those same buses going to Eastern Bronx neighborhoods. The next set of stations are local stops at Tremont Avenue, Burnside Avenue, and 183rd Street, and an express stop at Fordham Road, and finally another local stop at Kingsbridge Road. After Kingsbridge Road, the line then goes under Goulden Avenue. It would make another local stop at Bedford Park Blvd near Lehman College, and finally an express stop at Gun Hill Road. A track connection will be built to connect to the existing Concourse Yard and Jerome Yard at 195th Street. Gun Hill Road will serve as the northern terminal of the local trains (the (4)), while the express tracks continue north. A relay area will be built north of the station for the local trains.
After Gun Hill Road, the express tracks (the (3) train) will continue northward under Mosholu Pkwy and the Bronx River Pkwy before finally turning eastward under 233rd Street in Woodlawn. It would stop at Jerome Avenue to allow for buses from Westchester county to intercept the subway trains sooner. Another stop would be make at Katonah Avenue, before crossing into the Wakefield neighborhood and terminating at White Plains Road, with a possibility for extension eastward to the city limits. Replacement bus service will be provided along Jerome Avenue for those who need it.
The second key part of this plan is rebuilding the connection between the Jerome, White Plains, and Lenox Lines, which has a grade crossing in Manhattan, and really sharp curve in the Bronx that slow service. Starting with the grade crossing, at 138th Street and Lenox Avenue, two new tracks would split off from the existing alignment and operate under the existing tracks to a new full length, ADA station at 145th Street. This station would serve both the (2) and (3) lines, doubling service at this station. At 147th Street, the new tracks would head east under the Harlem River and enter the Bronx at 150th Street. At the Major Deegan Expressway, the tracks split into two branches. The first pair turns north under River Avenue and then under 153rd Street to become the express tracks of the Jerome Avenue Elevated replacement subway. A new station would be built under River Avenue to serve the Bronx Terminal Market. The second set continues diagonally to 149th Street, meeting up with the existing tracks to the 149th Street-Grand Concourse station, where service continues as normal. In addition, the (5) train merge will be rebuilt so that it avoids the 149th Street station for a smoother and faster ride. The (2) and (5) interline will be dealt with in a later project.
The Harlem-148th Street station would not be served by the (3) train under this scenario (the existing tracks will remain for access to the Lenox Yard for the (2) and (3), though the (3) will use the Jerome Avenue replacement subway. Therefore, abandoning it and replacing it with increased bus service to other stations on the line is one option. Another option is to possibility have the station served by a 5-car (S) shuttle train to 135th Street. This would require rebuilding the 135th Street station to a three track-two island platform station, with track access to the center track at both ends. The (S) would operate at 12 trains per hour, and would serve a similar purpose to the Rockaway Park Shuttle in linking Harlem-148th Street to the (2) and (3) trains for residents who live near the area.
This plan (which should be built in phases) has many
Better service to Western Bronx, and Woodlawn proper (the current subway options don't reach these areas)
All-day express service in the area, providing faster commutes between Manhattan and the Bronx
Allows for one seat rides betwen Western Bronx either the west or east sides of Manhattan, while reducing interlining
Ability to accommodate for service disruptions by allowing for service adjustments on the fly, allowing for service to continue running (i.e: an incident on the Lexington Avenue Express prevents (4) trains from coming down the line to Brooklyn. Solution: route the (4) to the IRT Lenox Line and West Side IRT to Brooklyn, resuming the regular service at Atlantic Avenue).
Smoother and faster service for (5) train customers, improving service between the Northeast Bronx and the East Side of Manhattan
The drawbacks include:
Potential expensive costs
Conversion of service to Harlem-148th Street to a shuttle.
Inconvenient transfers between Concourse and the new subway
Potential crowding on the IND Concourse Line?
I think
14:14 I really like ur plan to extend the 2nd av line to throgs neck, but I think the (T) should go there and the (Q) via 125 St. I also want the (T) to be extended via a new tunnel from Hanover Square to underneath the Court St (Transit museum) station with an island platform built there. Then connect to the 2 outer tracks of Hoyt-Schermerhorn and run via Fulton St running local to Euclid Av, and the (C) runs express to prevent merging conflicts. You could aslo extend the Fulton St line to wherever, and have the (C) and (T) trains run there.
Your complaint about railfanners wanting such wild ideas is fine, despite me having my own wild ideas. I want to fix MTA’s money issues as well in order to fund such massive construction projects. I really hope my proposals come to their attention & at least get considered. Thanks for being such an amazing transit advocate! I really hope the 2nd Avenue Subway gets finished in record time.
I want railfans to think about being pragmatic and live in the real world for a second, as someone who has been in the political arena for the last two years, I assure you that we are not the only interest. There is so much money and political capital to go around, and there is a reason why I care about cost: I want to politicians to be able to say that for the price of one Second Ave subway, we are doing 4 or 5 different expansion projects. To do so, one must understand where it is best place to tunnel and to reuse existing ROWs, and understand how regional rail works. If not, expect the price to balloon to way more than what you expected and for more delays to happen.
This is interesting, though I have my own takes on it. I do believe that here should still be two segments of the SAS in the Bronx, though in my take, the main branch continues up 3rd Avenue to at least 163rd Street. There, it would actually continue up Boston Road to 169th Street. There it would continue via Crotona Avenue to Fordham Road. That’s the first part of this sector. From there it could cut through the Bronx Park and then continue East via Allerton Avenue to Boston Road again, where it will continue along that street to Dyre Avenue, a few blocks walking distance from Co-Op City. A replacement for the Dyre Avenue Line, this will provide new service to the South Bronx with connections to the existing White Plains Road Line and an extended Concourse Line, which will provide direct service to Co-Op City.
Meanwhile branch will be built branching off the main SAS line at 149th Street. From there it will operate along that street, connecting with the Pelham Line, before operating via Randall Avenue to Castle Hill Avenue. From there, crossing the Westchester Creek, it would then operate along Lafayette Avenue to East Tremont Avenue. This line would better serve Southeast Bronx by providing new coverage for them.
I think the first branch you propose has some issues. Bronx Park is a protected Forever Wild Site, and the NY State Constitution prohibits any construction in. Forever Wild Sites. There is a reason why in my Concourse extension video that I threw out plans to extend it via Burke Ave, because that is going to run into Bronx Park. Even though Fordham Rd and Gun Hill Rd, the two alignments that I prefer run through Bronx Park, the subway will be under existing roads, so it will be more feasible to do construction there.
I also think that the IND plans to take over the 6 to Pelham is way over the top. I think reconfiguring the switches at Westchester Square and CBTC will give some more capacity, as the 6 is already deinterlined. If you want more rail capacity from Manhattan to the Eastern Bronx, which I outlined isn't necessary, extend the subway via Throgs Neck via 163rd St. Here, you can get an extra 15 tph to serve a transit desert that is dependent on the 6, and supplement the loss of direct east side service at 3rd Ave-149th St. If riders want to go to the Southern Bronx, they can always transfer to the 6 at Southern Blvd.
@@jointransitassociation Well there could be some way to get around it, being special permits or exceptions or something, though I’m honesty not counting on it just yet. In all actuality, any SAS plans north of Fordham Road are a bit of a longer term plan.
As for Pelham, I’m not proposing having SAS take over that line. Rather, I’m proposing a supplemental line that will serve the bottom of Southeast Bronx alongside the existing 6 route.
I enjoyed all your videos so far in this series.
Also they can do this if they have any interest in this one, bringing the 2nd Avenue Subway T train to Gun Hill Road/White Plains Road via the rebuild of the 3rd Avenue elevated line starting at 3rd Avenue-156th Street and making these stops: 161st Street-Saint Anne’s Avenue, 166th Street, 169th Street, Claremont Parkway-171st-172nd Streets, 174th Street, (extention to the White Plains Road line after this station and further up the line), Tremont Avenue-177th Street (free transfers to the Concourse and Pelham lines at: Tremont Avenue-Grand Concourse, Westchester Square-East Tremont Avenue, and Parkchester-East 177th Street), 180th Street (an extension to the White Plains Road line after this station), 183rd Street, Fordham Road-190th Street, Bedford Park Boulevard-200th Street, 204th Street, Williams Bridge-210th Street, and Gun Hill Road making a connection to these following stations: New York Botanical Gardens with connection to Metro North, Southern Boulevard-Bronx Zoo, Fordham Road-Southern Boulevard, East 187th Street, Arthur Avenue, and East 188th Street making East 188th Street the last stop by heading Arthur Avenue and stopping directly at East 188th Street making that the last stop on the Southern Boulevard branch after Southern Boulevard-Bronx Zoo which would be fantastic to have a branch like that take you to the beginning of the Bronx Zoo. And if they’re interested in this in the future having 2nd Avenue 7th Avenue and Lexington Avenue lines all at the old South Ferry station for the 2nd Avenue Subway it’ll be after Hanover Square for Lexington Avenue it’ll be after Bowling Green and for 7th Avenue it’ll still be after Rector Street just for old fashioned commuters that originally took the 2nd Avenue and 3rd Avenue elevated lines to have an old time sake era and including for 7th Avenue line commuters but new for Lexington Avenue line commuters
You know, about the IRT lines in the Bronx, is it still possible to convert the single-island-platformed terminal stations into double-island-platformed ones? For example, if the Pelham Express service were to be extended further to Pelham Bay Park, would it be feasible to convert the Pelham Bay Park terminal station with two island platforms like Main Street station?
And about the 125th Street extension, is it feasible to extend the line further west to Bergen County and terminate it at Fort Lee?
Please do Utica, there's too many situations right now pointing to that being the next "no-brainer" for how much it can snowball into. If the IRT extension is chosen, that's a (semi) immediate filling of a long standing rapid transit desert, buffs to the IRT system as it forces the horror that is Rogers Junction to get reigned in, and giving purpose to the 5 line as more than a filler line assuming de-interlining is performed in the Bronx to get rid of the nasty 149th Street curve.
If IND is chosen (and honestly, it kinda should), that's an immediately more exciting bit as you now know there'd be a southern Brooklyn terminus to the *current* 2nd Av Subway (which ideally gets its phase 3 & 4 more scrutinized and redeveloped) and in an ideal circumstance gets itself re-routed south of 63rd St along 3rd Ave to better hit the midtown central business district until Houston St where it curves east with a stop at Ave C or so, goes under the river to Williamsburg then curves south under Montrose Av L before going south on Stuyvesant (to the Myrtle J/M/Z station) then south the remaining portion of Malcolm X Blvd-Utica Avenue.
These B division trains would be greatly appreciated for their higher capacity while moving through some surprisingly dense portions of southeastern Brooklyn, farther stop spacings which would promote higher speeds on the line, and the use of a line that would run along 2nd/3rd Aves would provide riders with that same East Side Manhattan access that Lexington would without overcrowding the already busiest (year over year) line in the system with a new explosion of ridership.
Can't argue against the core points of the video's arguments about how to get the most out of Bronx capacity but I'm also glad to see that the Throgs Neck extension plan for the SAS seems to be the one that makes the most sense. Bronx wants more crosstown lines than anything else at this point and that line along with a Co-Op City pair extension for the Concourse Line and the Pelham Line seem like the best things for that.
In all honestly, we really don’t need an IND Utica Av Line at all, given that the need for it no longer exists and the Utica Avenue Line will not overcrowd Lexington Avenue (given that most B46 SBS riders are going to the Lexington Avenue Line).
@@TheRailLeaguerI argue that it is needed, as it will provide Utica with a full trunk worth of capacity, and have the opportunity to relieve congestion off of the L (the only overcrowded Brooklyn subway line). The IRT extension should be built first, but at the same time as an extension from a 3rd Avenue Subway (to replace Phases 3 & 4 of SAS).
@@daniel_teplitsky07 Maybe, though I don’t really see a need for Utica Avenue Line north of Eastern Pkwy. The ridership numbers through Bed-stuy and southern Williamsburg don’t really impress me that much and even if the population were to continue to grow, i honestly don’t see a need for it at any point. Also any plans for Phase 3 and 4 of SAS or a 3rd Avenue Subway or whatever should solely be used to bolster service on the Fulton Street IND, which quite honestly is in desperate need of new train capacity.
I do want to see some changes to Jamaica Line service to at least encourage some riders to switch (my Nassau-8th Avenue connection plans come to mind).
@@TheRailLeaguer Fulton Street does not need new capacity, it’s a weak line. Northern Williamsburg is in need of new capacity however, hence my Utica-3rd Avenue Line.
@@daniel_teplitsky07 I kinda disagree especially as a daily A and C train commuter. 23-30 trains per hour combined in one direction is not enough, and this is a line that has four tracks straight from the get go and operates within a half mile from the nearby Eastern Pkwy Line. Quite honestly linking the SAS (or Third Avenue Line) to Fulton Street could also help simplify service in Queens, provide additional capacity over there, and with new direct East Side access, could potentially siphon quite a number of riders off Eastern Pkwy, leaving room for those who really need it.
Honestly, if people still want the T to go to the Bronx, just let it stop at 125th Street via separate platforms first.
Then, fix everything in the Bronx. Have new extensions in Brooklyn, like the Utica Ave Subway, even with the T to Brooklyn [Red Hook with the 1 to Staten Island, while the 1 heads to Sunset Park].
The T going to the Bronx will be the last project to tackle, and it can vary to either Throgs Neck, or 3rd Avenue.
Millions of people wants this 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line to come back to south Bronx Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx. The 6 Pelham line is definitely gonna be extended to co op city mall I tell you that right now. The Q T trains is definitely gonna be extended to East Harlem and west side across 125 street to connect to the 1 Broadway line I'm telling you. Eventually the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line will definitely have both. One elevated between Gun hill road Clearmount Tremont Webster Boston road Bronx and 139 street going under ground.
@@leecornwell5632 Good grief, you keep shoving down this same opinion on multiple comments.
I get it, you want it to happen, but let's look at this rationally.
Spending a lot of money on a line that just goes to one corridor is not the way to go, as that costs around $10B (even if you make it above grade, which, good luck for finding the perfect tunneling point, would cost $3B), especially if there are ways to achieve nearly the same thing in a cost-effective manner. Keep in mind, this is taking account the cost of Phase 1 of the 2nd Avenue Subway, not with Phase 2, which the latter is more expensive, making a 3rd Avenue Subway to write a wrong be a burden in cost, despite good intentions.
This is why people mention about introducing regional rail to Metro-North (similar to the S-Bahn). It will come with infill stations on the Harlem Line in 149th, 168th, Claremont, 183rd, etc., be run at 15TPH (it will be possible because new trains will be built to accommodate), and it would be fully local. It would essentially be nearly the same as having the 3rd Avenue Subway, but cheaper.
With this, you could also have a straight shot express to Manhattan and you could transfer onto the 2nd Avenue or Lexington Avenue subways to ride local on the East Side, or take the 2nd Avenue Subway to Saint Nicholas Avenue to ride local on the West Side.
Then, whatever saved costs you have, once deinterlining is taken care of, a tunnel to Throgs Neck can be done to fill in one of the last dead zones in the Bronx.
They have to finish the SAS in Manhattan! I agree!
Can you do a vid of the manhattan version of SAS, in the second system lines, and plans from 1940-1968.
Since we're discussing the 2nd Ave line, what are your thoughts on connecting it to the Montague line with the connection the J & M used?
That one? I am not sure. It depends on the frequency of the Montague Street Tunnel, provided if either the (R) or (W) [either choice is possible, considering that I have no Broadway service at Queens Boulevard] goes to Astoria. If it is not too high, then that is possible, but I personally had it do something else, which is a subway to Staten Island via Red Hook, where there is a cross transfer between the (T) and the (1).
Either using the Montague connection, or the one provided for just north of Grand/Christie street, will very seriously overload the master tower at DeKalb avenue!
Now you have a problem with the 3 train which yard will maintain it the reason why it terminates on New Lots Avenue is to give it a yard for maintenance.
Saint Nicholas Avenue how to spell build connections to the tracks at 135th Street that way if 8th ave line between 145th and 59th streets are blocked there is another way for the B & D trains to reach 6th Avenue by running the east side 2nd Ave and merge with the F at Lexington Avenue 3rd Street also known as 59th Street on the IRT system
WhT you talking a about? They got 148 st Lenox yard
@@williamerazo3921 does it have a shop facility to Maintain trains or not? Remember New Lots Avenue Yard 3 train has a shop building for train maintenance
Unionport Yard and the 239th St Yard: Am I a joke to you?
Also, the 125th St to Central Park West Connection is a completely unrealistic idea. You either have an insanely sharp curve with a station at 125th St and St. Nicholas Ave, which will cut capacity, or forgo 125th St all together to have a smoother curve to serve 145th St, but you made the 125th St crosstown line completely unaccessible to riders below 135th St.
@@jointransitassociation Thanks for telling me about that and speaking of 125th st crosstown how will you make it connect to 8th ave line 59th 145th section?
@@EpicThe112 I would just end the Second Ave subway at 125th St and St. Nicholas Ave. Here, northern and southern Manhattan commuters would just transfer to where they need to go. I don't think extending the Second Ave subway north past 125th St will be useful, because if you are a northern Manhattan commuter and you want to get to the east side, you would just transfer at 125th.
To fix and expand the A Division, I propose this:
The 2 and 5 can continue running together along the White Plains Road line, but we can have the 5 just skip 149th Street-Grand Concourse and instead meet up with the 2 at 3rd Avenue-149th Street via a brand new connection. The current connection between 138th Street and 149th Street will therefore be abandoned as it will no longer be needed.
We will also connect the 3 to the Jerome Avenue Line to run with the 4 up to Bedford Park Boulevard-Lehman College. Both 167th Street and Bedford Park Boulevard will be converted into express stations, especially BPB so it can serve as a proper terminus for 3 trains. The extension will start off at Harlem-148th Street, and head upwards along Frederick Douglass Boulevard up to 155th Street for a transfer to the B and D. It’ll then run under the Harlem River towards Jerome-Anderson Avenues-Yankee Stadium (transfer to the B, D, and 4) before finally connecting with the 4 at 167th Street.
As for Nostrand Avenue, I propose killing off Rogers Junction entirely by having the 1 and 6 run along new branches connecting to the line. The 1 and 6 will run via new tunnels underneath the East River to meet up at Jay Street-MetroTech (with transfers to the A, C, F and R), after which they will run along Myrtle Avenue, up to Bedford Avenue, after which they will descend to run along Nostrand Avenue, starting at DeKalb-Lafayette Avenues (with a transfer to the G at Bedford-Nostrand Avenues), and then connecting to the Nostrand Avenue Branch, displacing the 2 to run with the 3 to New Lots Avenue, and the 5 to run with the 4 to Crown Heights-Utica Avenue.
In the future, the lines will be extended, with the 1 going further down Nostrand Avenue to Manhattan Beach Park, while the 6 splits off to run along Flatbush Avenue, towards Jacob Riis Beach.
My thoughts:
1) 2 and 5 via new connections:
- The 3 won't have a maintenance yard anymore, meaning that if we have to deinterline Rogers (send the 3 to Flatbush Avenue), Lenox Yard has to be reconverted into a maintenance yard.
- You would still not fix the delicate timing of the reverse-branch, known as Mott interlocking, meaning that the maximum capacity is not met here because you split the 3 from the 2, while trying to merge the 2 with the 5.
- If you try to build a new connection, good luck trying to go through Metro-North and that historical site, which would balloon the cost up.
- The 5 ain't really the right line since the preference for Lexington Avenue service in White Plains and Dyre Avenue is very small (78% of riders would have to transfer to the 5 during rush hours), and Dyre Avenue is not 100% pro-Lexington.
- The actual way to deal with this: As mentioned in the video, a Lenox Terminal shuttle from 135th to Lenox Terminal, the 3 to Dyre Avenue, and the 5 to Jerome Avenue.
2) 3 and 4 to Jerome:
- Ain't this interlining?
- I am pretty sure the Lenox Avenue and Jerome Avenue tracks are not compatible with each other.
- The abandoned Polo Grounds shuttle tracks are too close to Yankee Stadium, if I am not wrong, so that would be more expensive than it needs to be.
- The actual way to deal with this: Look at point 1.
3) Kill of Rogers:
- That is way overkill, it is not necessary whatsoever.
- You are trying to get rid of a vital line for IRT trunk express lines, making this DOA.
- Actual way to deal with this: As mentioned in the video, create a new connection for the 4 train to use the local tracks, while the 5 continues on express. Send the 2 and 3 to Flatbush Avenue.
Great video! I definitely think the SAS should be extended into The Bronx!
Definitely the SAS 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and 149 street free transfers to the 2 5 trains. Maybe Queens plaza connecting to the 7 N W 11 trains 🚃 .
SASsy
I don’t know if you have a video on it, but if possible, would you be able to go in-depth regarding the costs of construction and MTA budget and why building 3 stations on the SAS cost $1.4 billion/mile when in other developed nations, who lines are built for that money
Well, for some reason residents within the SAS line want these massive stations which hinder costs. These stations are similar to those of London than NYC, which I’m not a fan of.
The vast majority of the high costs come from union rules allowing workers to take long breaks with full pay. Furthermore, construction of ANY kind is extremely difficult in New York City, underground construction in particular, as a myriad of utilities must be relocated to allow for the construction to commence.
Definitely the 2nd av line towards throggs neck via Lafayette av sounds legit because they need service, and that 125 st shuttle crosstown is convenient as well. They should of definitely kept the 3rd av EL through Manhattan and rebuild whatever was aging and extend it via 3rd av and fordham rd in the bx to co-op city .
What about a Crosstown A train in The Bronx from Inwood along Fordham Road?
4/5 don’t have the slowdowns in the Bronx because they use the middle track for 4 trains while the 5 trains go
Through the junction. That’s why the 4s skip 138th street
I didn't say that the 4 slows down, I said the 5 slows down at 149th St because of that C curve.
And I know that is why the 4 skips 138th St, but that is not enough in my opinion. You still have a horrible reverse branching/interlining scenario up there, which still kills capacity. The extremely sharp curve only compounds the problem.
@@jointransitassociationAxe m train service
Of course the 5 slowdown at a curve because a curve but service on on the WPL is not really effective and capacity is just right but to have 2 7ave Line on WPL would be stupid because it would be overcapacity on the Broadway express
@@williamerazo3921 How would that happen? Like you will have an increase of 7 tph on the 2/3 because you eliminating both the 142nd St Junction and the 149th-GC curve.
This is a great video, and a great summary of Second Ave proposals in the Bronx. I agree with most of it... except the part about using current ridership patterns to justifying writing off SAS extensions into the Bronx. The current ridership figures and commutation patterns are a result of the legacy of the demolition of the Third Avenue El. Riders had to adjust to the loss of transit service by either moving or finding work elsewhere. The bottom line is that the Bronx was damaged by the demolition of Third Ave, and we don't need to accept that this damage is permanent. If the T was extended to a new line under Third Ave in the Bronx, the result would be a growth in new demand and as Bronx residents benefit from improved mobility.
While it is true that the MetroNorth Harlem line runs close to a portion of 3rd Ave, adding new stations (restoring old stations) on the Harlem line would be difficult in some spots. Also, the new/old MetroNorth stations would have very short platforms. Furthermore, MetroNorth service would be less frequent and more expensive than subway service, hence it would not be a true substitute for extending the T under 3rd Ave to Fordham Plaza.
Granted, it will be a challenge just to get Phase III of SAS built, and a Bronx extension of the T would not happen any time soon. However, we shouldn't use the current depressed conditions of the Bronx to justify keeping it depressed forever.
The problem I have with the T under 3rd Ave is cost. We are talking about billions of dollars extra here. If it is located in a rail desert, like in Northeastern Queens, sure, go for it. But it parallels the 4 track Metro North.
I understand Metro North regional rail is a tricky endeavor. But what is infinitely harder is the 3rd Ave subway. It is much easier to extend the platforms and build infill stations than build an entire new subway from scratch. And through my own research, there is space for these infill stations, which means it is less tricky than you think. The hardest part will be 149th St, for the transfers to the subway, but again, if you a 3rd Ave subway, it will involve the exact same effort.
Finally, regional rail in this instance means trains on the outer track make every stop. 15 tph run in the peak direction, but 5 tph run in the reverse peak. The solution is to balance them so that 15 tph run in each direction. 15 tph is a train every 4 minutes, which is more than enough to serve the 37k riders here. Riders who don't want trains that make all stops would then take trains in the inner track, which would skip all of those stations.
Therefore, I think Metro North is a very good substitute. The SAS in many opinion, is better suited to go to Throgs Neck to serve an actual rail desert, and to facilitate deinterlining.
@@CR1Creative The Amtrak ROW will now be used by the New Haven branch of MetroNorth ("Penn Station Access"), which will help Bronx riders to a certain degree. But like I said about the Harlem River line, MetroNorth service is not equivalent to expanded Subway service.
I do like the Burke Ave subway. One of those lines that should have been built when it was first proposed but is no longer on the MTA's radar.
@@jointransitassociation There is a major difference between the transit desert along Third Ave and the ones in Queens. Third Ave was built with high-density areas around a transit line. The transit line was taken away, and now that corridor is now one of the major areas of the city that have the intersection of high density, high poverty, and poor access to transit.
On the other hand, the transit deserts in Queens (except the end of the now-demolished section of the Jamaica line) never had a transit line. They were built after the Subway stopped expanding, and for the most part they were built with car-oriented lower density.
Improving the MetroNorth Harlem line might be the most achievable option in the foreseeable future, but it is not the best option for the residents in the 3rd Ave corridor. Yes, a 3rd Ave Subway would be expensive, but it would be a better use of dollars than Subway expansion in areas of Queens that don't have the density and needs that the Bronx does.
@@DeWainFeller
I'm aware of that also I'm proposing my grand master plan to improve the subway system effectively and expansions of the system I'll get to that later on
@@DeWainFeller
In this day and age of everything being built under the MTA, Third Avenue would be too close to Lexington Avenue to be useful also there's lots of ideas on where we can extend the SAS which there's demand for a Subway on Third Avenue and Lafayette Avenue in the Eastern Bronx.
Plus for the Bronx, all the elevated lines should be replaced. None of the elevated were built with any future demand in mind (3 tracks for an express service? FOH). The first place to start should be the IRT Broadway-7th Avenue Line. I recommend replacing the last 2-3 miles of the elevated lines north of the Harlem River to be replaced by an hour extension of the underground IND Eight Avenue Line (A) train, with the line going from 207th Street to about 240th Street, with provisions for expansions north. The current (1) local train is a slow local and from 242nd Street to the Times Square/Port Authority area, it stops 24 times. With the new express (A) train option, using 240th Street as a benchmark, it would only stop 13 times, saving about 20-25 or even 30 minutes in travel times for Riverdale riders. The (1) train would then terminate at 215th Street. For yard access the 240th Street Yard would be modified to connect with the (A) train while the (1) trains would use 207th Street Yard.
Another area for replacement would be the IRT Jerome Avenue Line. plus it's connection to the White Plains Road. I'd recommend replacing it with a new 4-track subway under University Avenue, with the local tracks hosting the (4) train, and the express tracks used by rerouted and extended (3) trains.
If it’s called the T you have to extend it all the way to Boston and Pittsburgh
why?
Building new subway shouldn't about taking over old lines, it should be about serving new areas.
The #6 is fine. But the #5 dyre uses cars that are narrower than the original cars.
And the SAS taking over the Dyre Avenue line present a transfer opportunity between the #6 and the 2/5. Connecting the South East Bronx with the Central Bronx, which does not exist today. But at least you can West Bronx connection at the southern end with the #4. And later Westside Manhattan with the "D", which opens you to more transfer opportunities.
And extending both the "D" and "6" to Co-op City will change the whole way on how people use the subway in the Bronx. Thats even if they didn't include a SAS connection from the #6 to 2/5.
The fact that they plan to send the SAS back to the westside. Not only does it not make practical sense, it was a slap in the face to Bronx residence. The Bronx is intergal with Manhattan and to not include it just insane.
If you take at ridership numbers, sending the SAS to the Bronx is not justified.
@@jointransitassociationBut building a line along 125th street would be disastrous, as an active fault line runs along that corridor!
Here how to Fix the A Divison
The (1) and (6) are already 100% Deinterlined But All that the (6) needs is CBTC and converting the Westchester Square station into a express station and reconfiguring the tracks that delay would be gone as currently locals and expresses at Parkchester have to merge in front of one another causing delays
To Deinterline 149th GC This would involve the 142nd Street Junction and the 135th Street station getting reconfigured the current Southbound platform would be converted for shuttle trains while the current Northbound platform would be converted into an island platform while the Bronx Bound Track would be moved to the East serving the (2) and (3) trains. 149th street GC station would get expanded to accommodate the transfering commuters. With the (3) getting extended to the Bronx taking over service to the Dyre Aveune Line, while the (5) will become a support line for the (4) up to Bedford Park Boulevard which should get reconfigured into a 4-track line to accommodate short turn terminating (5) trains on the outer tracks while (4) trains would continue to Woodlawn on the Inner tracks, as Woodlawn can only handle 24 TPH. While this is controversial, this would be better than waiting 6 minutes for a (5) train that ends up getting delayed at 149th Street GC and end reverse branching on White Plains south of East 180th Street Meanwhile the C curve past the 149th GC station would be eliminated which causes delays
To Deinterline Rogers Junction this would involve adding two new switches this would send both the (2) and (3) trains down to Flatbush Avenue, and by sending (4) trains Local to New Lots and the (5) trains Express to Crown Hts and adding new interlockings around Franklin Aveune and Flatbush Avenue to avoid conflict between the (2), (3), (4) and (5), with this the (2) and (5) may no longer share a fleet. The final piece of the puzzle here is to bulid tail tracks past Flatbush Avenue to make this station a better/more efficient terminal to handle more trains
Improvements
(1): Install CBTC on the entire line and shut down nearby stations at (18th and 28th street stations) for faster service speeding up commutes
(2/3): The (3) will become a supplementary service for the (2) at White Plains Road those extra (3) trains can be turned into express trains for faster service and speeding up commutes at White Plains Road
(4/5): The (5) will essentially become a filler line for the (4) until the Utica Avenue Subway and the 3rd Ave El replacement project gets built
(6): By converting the Westchester Square Station into an express station and reconfiguring the tracks combined with CBTC this would solve the merging/bottle necks at Parkchester that delay will be gone
why dose the 125th steet etension only go to srt nicholas and a not all the way up at lest the one at brodway anf maybe even under ninth avenuie all the way to the gorge washington bus terminal to meet busse into both the bron and norther jersy.
Must be some issues with connecting it with the 1 train at Broadway due to geographical issues. There’s a vanshnookenraggen post that talks about this too.
My theory is that it’s too near the river so it would be prone to floods. A free out of system transfer could do.
more lickely the cliffs of the cloisters then the river . broaway is quite far from the hudsoin.
@@TheRailLeaguer
Absolutely NO LINE should be built along 125th, as an active fault line runs along that corridor.
@@CraigFThompson how interesting. where are any other fault lines in nyc.
I prefer only 1 branch into The Bronx, as the should run via the BMT Concourse Line (under the IND Concourse Line) to Crotona Park-Wilkins Avenue. The should serve its entire length, while the (Y) should terminate at 149th Street-Grand Concourse. The & (T) should run to Manhattanville-Saint Clair Place via 2nd Avenue local. The & (I) should run onto the IND Broadway Line (Queens) & run express on the IND Queens Boulevard Line. The should run express on the IND Rockaway Line, while the (I) is all local by terminating at Forest Park-Myrtle Avenue. The should also run via the BMT Nassau Street Line onto the Brooklyn Bridge, the rebuilt BMT Fulton Street Elevated Line, BMT Canarsie Line, rebuilt BMT Liberty Avenue Elevated Line, IND Merrick Elevated Line, & to Island Park-Austin Boulevard via 2nd Avenue express, Fulton Street Elevated local, Canarsie local, Liberty Avenue Elevated local, Merrick local, & Island Park local. The (Y) should terminate at Springfield Boulevard. The should run to Staten Island via BMT 2nd Avenue local & BMT North Shore Subway semi-express to Bloomfield-Edward Curry Avenue. The (T) should terminate at Saint Joseph’s Avenue. If you noticed the BMT North Shore Subway, the North Shore Branch of the Staten Island Railroad should also be reactivated. The & (I) should both terminate at Battery Park.
You have good interlining and Second Avenue and other subway extension ideas and I think they should be implemented but I have additional ideas: 1) there should be a Skytrain running from Co-op City over to the west side of the Bronx and into Manhattan via Pelham Bay Parkway and Fordham Road. Where Fordham Road narrows, the Skytrain can go underground. 2) The existing three 'S' Train shuttles are all Grey Lines. My suggestion is to change the bullet and line color from Grey to the same color of the line each shuttle branches from, to wit: the Times Square Grand Central shuttle would be 🟣 Purple, The Franklin Avenue shuttle would be 🍊 Orange or 🟡 Yellow, The Rockaway Shuttle Line would be 🔵 Blue, your IRT White Plains shuttle would be ♥️ Red, and your 125th Street shuttle would be 🟡 Yellow or 🩵 Cyan (Sky Blue). 3) Extend the Interborough Express into the Bronx and connect it to the Skytrain, making sure the IBX and the Skytrain are the same type of light rail (tram and light metro do not mix). 4) Extend the IBX under New York Harbor or over the Verrazano, interchanging or connecting to the Staten Island Railway (the latter means it would change from FRA compliant subway to which sort of light rail the IBX is. 5) If and when needed, extend the Skytrain down the West Side of Manhattan parallel to the existing 7th Avenue and Eighth Avenue tunnels.
The Second Avenue line MUST be extended into the Bronx, to eventually become part of a loop with an extension of the D train from 205th/Norwood to Co-op City. A branch of the SAS could be connected to the future Triborough Line through Queens, Brooklyn, and under the Narrows into Staten Island.
NOTHING should be built along 125th street, as an active fault line exists along that corridor. It bisects the Manhattan tower of the Triborough Bridge as well as the IRT's arch over 125th street. Even the SLIGHTEST little temblor (sup'm like a 2.3 on the Richter scale) would be....
I just can't think of what'd happen for some reason....
Ur super smart could seriously dance to the tune of the trains and the tubes! Please say "monstrosity" LOTS! Say it all the whey to New Lots.
How about “reopening “ the south ferry Lexington avenue loop?!
That would be too redundant since walking from the Bowling Green station would be a hell of a lot faster
no need to
What litteraly every bough needs (even Manhattan) needs crosstown lines. I personally find it difficult taking a M60 to the Metro North Station compare that to a Potential subway running trough 125st
A subway along 125th street would be a disaster; an active fault line exists there!
Here’s my plan for extensions to the Second Avenue subway, plus a few alterations to other lines in the B Division:
For my plan, we should send the T to run along 3rd Avenue in the Bronx while N and Q handle 125th Street. The V will be repurposed to run along Second Avenue local while the T and U run express. Both the N and Q will run along the 63rd Street branch, to run local north of Second Avenue, and along 125th Street, and the T and U will run along their respective branches, with the T running along 3rd Avenue while the U runs along Sedgwick Avenue. The G will be extended from Court Square to 39th Avenue-Dutch Kills to connect with the W to Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard, with a lower level at Queens Plaza. The M meanwhile will replace the F along 63rd Street (displacing the F to 53rd with the E), and the K will be reintroduced to run along 63rd Street with the M. The M will run along Northern Boulevard with the reintroduced K line, and the V will run along a new tunnel connecting between 42nd Street and Queens Plaza, replacing the M along QBL local. 36th Street converted into 6-track station, with K and M trains stopping on the outer platforms, the R and V on the inner platforms while the E and F skip the station entirely.
The E and K will run along the Montague Branch and 4th Avenue Local, replacing the R and W, both of which will instead run along a connection between City Hall on the Broadway line to Fulton Street on the Nassau Street line, to Broad Street, permanently cutting the J back to Chambers Street (this will of course mean having to extend the platforms at Fulton and Broad Street to accommodate 10-car trains). In the future, a new tunnel can be built under the east river to connect the R and W to Hoyt-Schermerhorn Streets, and have them running along Fulton Street local to Euclid Avenue, displacing the C to either run along Culver with the F, or via Fulton Express and replace the A to Lefferts Boulevard (the latter would probably be the better option).
For trains heading into southern Brooklyn, the B and D will both run along Brighton, with the B running local to Brighton Beach while the D runs express all the way to Coney Island. The N and Q will run via 4th Avenue Express while the E and K run local. The N will stay on Sea Beach while E runs with the Q along West End, down to Bay Parkway, while the Q continues on to Coney Island. The K will replace the R to Bay Ridge-95th Street.
Lastly, we have Central Park West. Both the A and C will run local, and the B and D will run express. The C will run along Grand Concourse with the D up to Bedford Park Boulevard, while the D continues on to run via an extension along Burke Avenue with the T to Co-Op City-Bay Plaza. B trains will run to Inwood-207th Street, cutting the A back to 168th Street.
As for yard assignments, the T will use Concourse Yard while the D is reassigned to Coney Island with the B, N, and Q. The U will use a newly constructed yard underneath Van Cortlandt Park. The R will be assigned to Pitkin Yard, and the G and W will use a newly constructed yard at Astoria since it will have to share its equipment with the W at Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard. The E, F, and V will use Jamaica Yard, and the K and M will also have a newly constructed in Bayside, Queens.
Umm it is an extremely stupid idea to build a subway yard under a park and your proposals don't make sense
@@alexthemtaandr211weatherfa2what would your alternative be? I’m not really a big fan of taking the R off of Queens Boulevard, but I do think we could send the N to run along 2nd Avenue and have the G take its place along the Astoria branch, as it only carries air on 60th Street. That, and have it skip 49th Street.
Plus the G could use some extra fresh air.
@NYC_Pokemon_Fanyour plan seems pretty nice, but I’m really not a big fan of kicking the R off of Queens Boulevard. I’m not a big fan of killing off the W again either because to be honest, Broadway just felt pretty empty without it. Plus I’m not too sure about having 4th Avenue being assigned only to one main trunk line, so I’d rather keep the B and D there, and have another line use South 4th Street (though personally I do think that empty shell could find another use, possibly as part of replacing both Hewes and Lorimer Street stations on the J and M with a brand new one at Union Avenue for an in-system transfer to the G.
The only line I am willing to kill off however would be the Z. Skip-stop service has proven to be unreliable as it doesn’t save that much time, and only causes delays. I could, however, have the Z run along a new main trunk line on 5th Avenue, while also introducing other lines, such as the X and Y.
The Z can run with the J along the BMT Jamaica line, but can split off from it after Broadway Junction to run with the L to Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway. After Bowery, the line can meet up with the Y (which will originate at World Trade Center using the former E train platform; the E and K will use the Worth Street branch provision to connect to the Montague branch) at 8th Street, and run local with the Y while the X (Which originates at State Street-Battery Park) runs express.
Heading into the Bronx, after 133rd Street, the X will run express along the Sedgwick Avenue line while the U runs local, and the Y will run local along 3rd Avenue while the T runs express, meaning that both Sedgwick and 3rd Avenue will use 4 tracks. The Z will terminate at 125th Street-Marcus Garvey Park, but during rush hours will run with the Y along 3rd Avenue local.
The Y will split off from the T after Mosholu Parkway to run along Webster Avenue, up to Nereid Avenue (for a transfer to the 2; rush hour Z trains will terminate at 233rd Street), while X trains will terminate at Gun Hill Road while U trains continue onward to Woodlawn (with a transfer to the 4).
@@VinceHere98 Your Manhattan Bridge Pelham and Nassau street plan is a racist hate crime. You will not destroy the beloved B D R in favor of that disgusting ass SAS T U AND FAKE ASS TRAITOROUS V TRAIN.
@NYC_Pokemon_Fan You’re declaring open war against the MTA subway line. You never ridden the subway in your life
I feel like they really did Phase 1 of the SAS dirty, because they did not factor in the reverse-branching issue.
In my opinion, I think this should be handled, taking the first phase into account:
- Lower-level platforms for the (T) with the Phase 1 stations: Considering that the (Q) and (T) should not intersect at the 63rd Street junction, and the (Q) uses the current platform level, the (T) should have its own set of tracks, and we cannot really build them at the same level anymore. Hence, I propose the Phase 1 stations having a lower level.
- 2 island platforms and 4 tracks for 106th and 116th: When the SAS was first thought of, it was meant to be a 4-track layout. The outer tracks would be used by the (Q) and the inner tracks would be used by the (T) connected from the lower level of Phase 1. This would allow cross-platform transfer for services between 125th Street crosstown and a future Bronx service. This should be done in Phase 2.
- 2 platforms for 125th Street: The 125th Street station going west is facing the east-west direction. This makes the Bronx connection infeasible as it would require a sharp curve to turn to the Bronx. As a result, I think it is best that the (T) should have its own platform. The (Q) can take Crosstown, while the (T) would serve 125th Street or a future Bronx service between 2nd and 3rd Avenues [as opposed to the (Q) being 3rd and Lexington Avenues]. This should be done within Phase 2.
- Complete the other 2 phases: Honestly, I think it should be in one phase, but whatever.
- Future Bronx service: Only after frequencies increase in the Bronx, then we can think of future Bronx service from 125th Street and northwards. It can either be Third Avenue or Throgs Neck.
This is just what I have in mind. There are other proposals where they cut the SAS in two, which one of them had the (T) in Inwood Local, but that is all I can think of. Then again, I am no subject-matter expert.
If the Second Ave subway had connections with the Dyre Avenue line, this would have meant service to Manhattan 24/7 instead of shuttle service to East 180 Street late nights. I know this would never become a reality now with the plans they have for the Second Ave line.
BEAUTIFUL IDEA! I was thinking the center tracks of that Dyre avenue line could be used for that purpose!!
@@CraigFThompson too short of a line to have express service. Also, the old railroad section which was part of NYW&B where the Second Ave subway would have operated has been torn down for apartment buildings.
The original 2 Avenue Subway Plan was to have it recapture the entire IRT Pelham Bay Park Line from 3 Av-138 Street to its current Pelham Bay Park Terminal, PLUS a very short extension into Co-op City as well. Also at the current Hunts Point Avenue Station they planned to punch a hole into the walls to connect up to the Dyre Avenue Line which was the former NY Westchester & Boston Railroad ran prior to its 1937's abandonment. Also, the entire IRT Pelham Bay Line was originally built to BMT/IND standards,m and can handle 10 foot wide subway cars while the other parts of the IRT cannot. This would help relieve the overcrowding and congestion on the existing IRT Lexington Avenue line, by removing the Dyre Avenue and Pelham Bay Lines from same, and free-up space for the Jerome Av and White Plains Road Lines to operate more efficiently on the Lex instead. Their current 2 Avenue stubway plan does absolutely NOTHING to relieve the overcrowding and congestion on the Lex, and will only make matters worse.
Literally what is the difference between the 2 and 3 trains under your plans?
One goes to Wakefield, the other goes to Dyre.
It is just a crime that the D was never fully extended to Baychester Ave. 205th will never be a great terminal because it wasn't MEANT TO BE ONE.
205th street isn’t a bad terminus
no matter if it wasn’t meant to be
What about the second avenue line on the (F) line ?! There’s a middle track that has been “closed off “ for years!?! If the “extension “ were to exist then MTA needs to bring back the 3rd avenue EL AND the culver shuttle ( extend that line to Coney Island)
What website does he use to edit train routes?
Brand New Subway
@@jointransitassociationthank you!
Should take over Pelham and Dyre Ave lines as intended and terminal at 149st Grand concourses 2/4/5.
149 grand concourse cant be a terminal station because the upper level doesn't have four tracks
@@alexthemtaandr211weatherfa2I’m talking about a terminal station from a 2Ave branch into the Bronx
There should be only 2 lines off 2nd av thru the Bronx, 1 on 3rd av to fordham rd and the other branching off on 163rd st to throggs neck via Lafayette av. Q to fordham and T to throggs neck (updated suggestion)
IT would have been so much cheaper to end 6 express service and rename it the 8 line. Then build a tunnel after 125th and lex that lead to the 2nd ave line and send the pelham 8 express train down 2nd ave. I also agree with making the 4 and 5 train to woodlawn, 2 to 241st, 3 to dyre, 9 train to 148th st.
Expand the 5 train pass Dyre Avenue
I don’t have a big issue with the Second Avenue Subway running across 125th Street. An extension into the Bronx? That ship sailed long ago. I do have an issue with a small portion of a de-interline argument you make here about the 5. You can stand on the platform at 149-GC during am rush hour and see that every 5 train has a rush hour load going to Lexington Avenue. Half of those trains are coming from Dyre, the other half from White Plains or 238. Rush hour 5’s generally don’t have to wait at 149, as 4’s use the middle track bypassing 138 and merging south of there. It’s still a slow move going from upstairs to downstairs, but not as dire as you want it to seem. I also don’t think you want to ask all those Lexington bound 2/5 corridor passengers to climb the stairs to the Woodlawn corridor 4 platform. Train operation better, customer operation a decline.
For 149th, it would be better to build a new flyover track that links the Jerome Avenue 4 line directly to the White Plains Road Line at 3rd Avenue-149th Street, effectively allowing the 5 to bypass 149th Street-Grand Concourse and travel at faster speeds between 125th Street and 3rd Avenue-149th Street, while still keeping operations for those guys.
@@TheRailLeaguer in a Utopian environment it’s a great idea, but like redoing Nostrand Junction, suffice to say, that’s not a realistic option.
That’s because a 5 shows up every 6-8 minutes. And it is not White Plains I am worried about. It’s ridership is fine. I am more worried about Lexington and how crowded those trains can get. That reverse branch kills capacity. There is a reason why I said expanding 149th Grand Concourse, with a new transfer to Metro North (when regional rail gets implemented), is necessary.
@@larryd2439 Actually deinterlining for Nostrand is a realistic idea, especially since it benefits a lot of people and doesn’t have too many negative impacts.
@@TheRailLeaguer realistic? Perhaps…but you need to realize the benefit of a one seat ride. This is very important and one of the reasons the 5 was sent back to Flatbush after years of being cut back to Bowling Green middays.
Why not build long high capacity light rail across the Bronx? 2 or more lines across the borough could spread connectivity between all the lines and boost local growth. It'd cost a fraction of a New York subway and be more substantial than bus priority or true BRT 🤔
They should have the a 8 and the q/new 2nd ave v train on the third avenue line for with 8 being local and q/v being express, express would join the d and go up to co up and the 8 would terminate at Fordham Uni
They definitely need to bring back the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and Batincal gardens Frordam plaza and Battery park place or south Ferry. The Pelham 6 line is definitely gonna be extended to co op city mall barto Bronx i deffinley tell you that right now. Eventually they are definitely gonna bring back the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line powder blue 🔵.I'm telling you.
The Pelham 6 line will definitely get CBTCS I tell you that right now.
Of course you know that the Connecticut metro North railroad is definitely gonna come from Pennsylvania station Manhattan Hunts point moriss parkchester and co op city. Eventually they are definitely gonna be extended the 6 Pelham line to co op city mall barto Bronx once they finish up four stations from the Connecticut metro. The T Q trains are definitely gonna be extended further to East Harlem and west side across 125 street to connect to the 1 Broadway line. They are definitely making enough room for the 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line to come back to south Bronx Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx to connect to the 2 5 trains and the BX 15 BX 41 buses. The 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line will definitely start at Gun Hill Rd and Batincal gardens Frordam plaza and Battery park place or south Ferry to connect to the 1 9 N R W trains. By the way the 1 Broadway line is definitely getting exstend to Redhook Brooklyn.
The 10 trains could definitely be extended to throggs neck village and Hunts point. I'm glad that you had mentioned the 8 trains.
T should run on 3rd Ave in the BX
No. Because one the T is definitely gonna be at Harlem 125 street 4 5 6 and the metro North railroad. Another thing is definitely gonna the Q T will definitely run west side 125 then 137 street connecting to the 1 Broadway line. They minds well better bring the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and connect to the 7 N W 11 trains. Let the 6 Pelham line be extended to co op city. Bring the 10 trains to Hunts point Throggs neck village Bronx elevated
No. Because one the T is definitely gonna be at Harlem 125 street 4 5 6 and the metro North railroad. Another thing is definitely gonna the Q T will definitely run west side 125 then 137 street connecting to the 1 Broadway line. They minds well better bring the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and connect to the 7 N W 11 trains. Let the 6 Pelham line be extended to co op city. Bring the 10 trains to Hunts point Throggs neck village Bronx elevated
@@leecornwell5632 We can literally just run the Q to the west while the T runs into The Bronx.
The cross connector wouldn't need a crap ton of trains because it would only be handling short east to west trips. There are already a ton of different ways to enter Manhattan North to South.
By converting Metro North into Regional Rail, you can recreate Third Ave el service levels. If you are interested, I have a video dedicated to taking about the Third Ave el Replacement Project.
th-cam.com/video/Sjc69tLyEAw/w-d-xo.html
You could definitely make the same exact stops that the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line used to run between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx. My opinion is to add a extra New iRt line to run on the Third Ave Elevated line is they could definitely use the 10 trains between Gun hill road Clearmount Avenue and 138 street because the Q T trains are definitely booked because after 116 street it's gonna definitely curve left to Harlem 125 street and then apparently the Q T trains will definitely run west side 125 and the then 137 street to connect to the Broadway 1 line I'm telling you. What you are definitely saying wich is 100% true. The MTA definitely needs to fucus on bringing the Thrid Avenue Elevated line back where it was because millions and millions of people are still screaming for this Thrid Avenue Elevated line to come back I'm telling you .
However the platforms for a bmt may be too close to each other. So its best to make a shuttle between Broadway and Lexington Avenue at 125th street. I do improve your idea but you're going to have a similar concept with the current concourse line being only 1 track limits Express service also i think that 161st Street should be an island platform. I do agree with you on the second Avenue line having 4 not 2, along with other plans.
The station placement is 0.5 mile per station, which is longer than the normal IRT/BMT station placements.
@@jointransitassociationof course having the 5 on Jerome means limit on Express service and you would need to expand the the tracks to 4 as Jerome has only 1 track similar to the concourse line.
@@ECRALSE40LPS It doesn't need all day express service. Peak direction is fine, and I don't think Jerome really needs an express service at the moment as ridership on the line has been trending downwards. I am proposing that track layout in the event when we do need that express, so that the local can terminate without interfering the express.
@@jointransitassociationHowever for the b and n service unchanged. For the d and q they would swap places. The w would take over the current r trains route and ended somewhere in queens as the w needs somewhere to terminate. For sea beach we would like Express service as the would need island platforms at new utrecht Avenue- 62nd Street for a change to west end line.
@@ECRALSE40LPS Rider preference on Brighton is Broadway, so I will give them the N/Q over the B/D. On 4th Ave, it doesn't matter what they get, because they have both 6th Ave and Broadway.
Sea Beach does not need an express. Firstly, 15 tph is not enough to create an express service and second, you are cutting capacity to the 8 or so other stations on the line, and some of those stations, 8th Ave and Bay Pkwy, see high ridership. But if you have those stations as express, along with New Utrecht, the time savings are minimal. Just have an all local Sea Beach service.
A final note is that when the MTA created the NX service, which skipped all the stations on Sea Beach, not a lot of people used it. You might say that is more 1968, but when the MTA rehabilitated Sea Beach and made the N skip a bunch of stations, riders complained. So Sea Beach express service is not popular.
2nd Avenue like should go up Webster Avenue past Fordham university up to neried Ave on the Westchester county boarder
The T trains would be to big to Nereid Ave. They better off bringing back the 8 trains to Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx and Batincal gardens Frordam plaza and Battery park place or south Ferry under ground on Thrid Avenue because there's is no trains on Thrid Avenue.
The IND did not really need 6th Avenue. They were already two lines on 6th Avenue. 1) Path and 2) An elevated line that is long gone. But the service on the BMT Broadway is superior to Anything on the 6th Avenue. West 4th is just a major complex to provide flexibility of service amongst these lines. It does not have the same importance as Times Square and Union Square for passengers.
I bring this up, because these were very expensive projects, when service already existed there. And the fact that the money used for this project could have been used for building the entire SAS. Not like we have today, but as a 4 track cut and cover tunnel.
This is where most of our medical centers lie and we still don't have a subway to these places.
Technically the 6th Avenue Line was needed due to the fact that the Concourse Line was included in the original IND and the Queens Blvd Line as well. Specifically in a Vanshnookenraggen post:
The city formed the Board of Transportation to plan and build the new system. The 8th Ave Line would form the backbone of the system, with the Crosstown Line forming a large loop between 8th Ave, Brooklyn, and Long Island City, Queens. The initial plans called for the Crosstown Line to have a wider arc than it does today: running under State St or Atlantic Ave to Hanson Place, then down Gates Ave to Throop Ave, up Throop to Union Ave and on to Manhattan Ave. Once in Queens it would loop back to Manhattan via 53rd St.
The 1922 proposal for an 8th Ave subway called for connecting the IRT Flushing Line to the trunk to run those trains downtown. The IND copied this plan by proposing a Queens line of their own. BMT trains coming from Coney Island were still bottlenecked by DeKalb Ave, so the IND proposed recapturing the BMT Culver Line via a new subway though South Brooklyn and Park Slope (IND Smith-9th Line as it was originally called.) To make sure the Bronx would support the plan, a branch of 8th Ave was proposed to run along the Grand Concourse.
In order for all of these trains to work efficiently, a second subway under 6th Ave was proposed. What had once been a simple new subway line was now an entire network. And the IND hadn’t even broken ground yet.
@@TheRailLeaguer What I'm saying is 6th Avenue could have been 2nd Avenue. And 6th Avenue could have been added later.
@@qolspony That would’ve been impractical since 2nd Avenue also needed to be a full trunk line to be effective as well. Without the 6th Avenue Line (which is technically part of the 8th Avenue Line ad well), you might as well cut both the Concourse Line and the Queens Blvd Line. In fact, what the city did is correct.
@@TheRailLeaguer It was all about putting the BMT and IRT out of business. And nothing about improving service. Besides, how do you improve service when the BMT and IRT already existed in the area?
Anyway, the line leading through central park west, although I would have chosen Columbus Avenue. But Columbus isn't a straight path into St. Nicholas Avenue. The old elevated line was better situated into the community (Columbus and 8th Avenue) though.
Than we get 53rd Street, which is ok. A better idea would have been 57th or 50th Street (especially) as this would have connected every line that it crosses.
Anyway, I don't know how anyone would build a case for 6th Avenue, when 2 services (3 if you include path) already existed. This is compared to a full 2nd Avenue 4 track line. I could even Invision an Avenue C branch with all the money used to tunnel under the PATH.
So out of this we got a connection at 34th Street with the BMT, which could have been 57th or 49th Street. And nothing in between.
What we would have gotten was a full crosstown consisting of three lines B/D/E. B/D serving 2nd Avenue and E serving 8th Avenue.
We really didn't get much out of this deal. And as always, city (transit) planers blew us out of a whole lot of cash.
@@qolspony None of what you’re saying is 100% true, except for the IRT and BMT going out of business
Also, the 6th Avenue Subway was actually needed to make the Concourse Line and Queens Blvd Line work more effectively. There’s no other way to do it without severely compromising service on 8th Avenue or the other corridors, including the Crosstown Line. That is the biggest case FOR the 6th Avenue Line. Meanwhile at the time there was literally zero need for a Second Avenue Subway. It was better to just build the 8th Avenue Line AND the 6th Avenue Line. THEY’RE ONE CORRIDOR. You need to get your head out of your damn ass and realize that. Just give up your stupid argument already. Nobody got screwed out a lot, and not a lot of cash was blown. Building the 6th Avenue Line was the correct choice.
My Response at first i was hesitant to Deinterline White Plains But after some thoughts about to what Mystic Transit said about we should sacrifice capacity for one seat rides and i disagree after watching TTA's reverse branching video the whole way throigh now i support Deinterlining White Plains
I, too, have that same realization.
HI Tech Transit association
We do not need to fix something that isn’t broken, destroying landmarks is an act of war
Did you watch the video?
@@jointransitassociation Yeah
@@TMC_BC165 Okay, I have some questions for you.
How is the 2/3 combined running at 20 tph and the 4/5 combined running at 24 tph not broken?
How is the at-grade junction at 142nd St and Rogers Ave not broken?
How is the IRT running at around 70 percent capacity not broken?
When did I ever advocate physically destroying the IRT? Because the language that you used is extremely strong to the point where you are implying that I am destroying the IRT physically, as stated that "destroying landmarks is an act of war."
Finally, why are you impersonating TMC? And before you brush it off, then answer this, why does your account say "Joined Dec 27, 2021", when TMC has been around for much longer since 2021?
I will have more respect for you if you used your own account, not an impersonator account, to state your opinions.
@@TMC_BC165 Listen you imposter, I don’t know who you are but I know you’re not the real TMC. This plan is just A PROPOSAL! Don’t take it THAT seriously!! I highly disagree with many points of this video but I don’t be posting stupid shit like this on the internet. If you don’t like these type of videos, THEN JUST DON’T WATCH THEM!!! Why the hell are you continuing to watch videos that you explicitly made clear that you hate? At this point you’re just a troll that wants attention. Get a life man.
@@jointransitassociation Well 20 TPH means that 2/3 each have 10 TPH that’s 6 minutes and 24th means that 4/5 each have 12 TPH that’s 5 minutes both which are good timing. PS: you never say anything about the deinterlining Nassau street
I was thinking the 8 and 10 trains be going to towards Dyre Avenue but the 8 heading up towards Van Cortlandt Park-242nd Street on a new lower level platform several feet above Broadway and have a free transfer to the Beeline 1 Bus from 242nd Street to Tarrytown, then having in Brooklyn having the 2, 8, and 10 trains run to Flatbush Avenue at Brooklyn College and the 3,4, and 5 trains running to New Lots Avenue, also having Metro North also run to 149th Street, 138th Street, 170th Street, 167th Street, 176th Street, 183rd Street, West Kingsbridge, East Kingsbridge, 116th Street, 110th Street, 103rd Street, 96th Street, 86th Street, 77th Street, 68th Street, 59th Street, 51st Street, new lower level at Grand Central-42nd Street, new lower level at 34th Street-Penn Station for all LIRR and MNRR branches and a new Flushing branch parallel with the 7 train for the LIRR but having a terminus terminal at Penn Station for the proposed LIRR Flushing Branch by me, 28th Street, 23rd Street, 18th Street, 14th Street, Astor Place, Bleeker Street, Spring Street, Canal Street, Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall, Fulton Street, Wall Street, Bowling Green, Borough Hall, Hoyt Street, Nevins Street, Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center, Bergen Street, Grand Army Plaza, Eastern Parkway-Brooklyn Museum, Franklin Avenue, President Street, Sterling Street, Winthrop Street, Beverly Road, Newkirk Avenue, Flatbush Avenue, Nostrand Avenue, Kingston Avenue, Crown Heights-Utica Avenue, Sutter Avenue, Saratoga Avenue, Rockaway Avenue, Junius Street, Pennsylvania Avenue, Van Siclen Avenue, New Lots Avenue, East 105th Street, and Canarsie-Rockaway Parkway, and even having a Rockaway Park-Beach 116th Street, a Rockaway Boulevard, and a new terminal at Far Rockaway for the Far Rockaway Branch shuttle after Rockaway Park-Beach 116th Street, also adding in the same route on the IRT 1 line to South Ferry on Metro North parallel with the IRT 1 line until 238th Street, then heading to Riverdale-242nd Street somewhere further away from the IRT 1 line on Broadway
The 9 trains could definitely work with the 1 Broadway line between 256 street Broadway Riverdale Ave Elevated and Redhook Brooklyn. The 8 Thrid Ave Elevated line between Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx could definitely be extended to Battery park place or south Ferry under ground in Manhattan connecting to the 1 9 R W trains.
To Maximize Capacity by Deinterlining Lines
Service should run as follows:
-(A): Norwood 205th St to WTC via Concourse Lcl/CPW Lcl/8th Avenue Lcl
-(B): Inwood 207th St to Coney Island via CPW Express/6th Avenue Express/4th Avenue Express (Sea Beach)
-(C): Jamaica 179th Street to Lefferts Blvd/Far Rockaway Via Queens Blvd Express/53rd Street Tunnel/8th Aveune Express/Fulton Street Express
-(D): 168th St to Bay Ridge 95th St via CPW Express/6th Avenue Express/4th Aveune Express (Local South of 36th Street)
-(E): Jamaica Center to Euclid Aveune via Queens Blvd Exp/53rd Street Tunnel/8th Avenue Express/Fulton Street Local
-(F): Forest Hills to Coney Island via
Queens Blvd Local/63rd Street Tunnel/6th Avenue Local/Culver Express
-(G): Forest Hills to Church Aveune via Queens Blvd Lcl/ Crosstown Lcl/Culver Lcl
-(J): Jamaica Center to Broad Street via Jamaica Local
(Rush Hour Express)
-(L): 8th Avenue to Canarsie via Canarsie Local (Tail tracks past 8th Avenue)
-(M): Metropolitan Aveune to Rockaway Park via Myrtle Avenue Local/Jamaica Local/6th Avenue Local/63rd Street Tunnel/Queens Blvd Local (Queenslink)
(New Flyover track to Access the Myrtle Avenue Upper level)
-(N): 96th Street to Coney Island via Broadway Express/Brighton Express
-(Q): 96th Street to Ocean Parkway via Broadway Express/Brighton Local
(New Flyover track to turn trains back to Coney Island Yard)
-(R): Astoria Ditmars to Coney Island or Canal Street via Broadway Local/4th Ave Local/West End Local
With this The (W) and (Z) will be killed off since they serve no purpose of existing with this (Z) trains will get absorbed into more (J) trains to Allow for Peak Direction Express Service, While (W) trains gets absorbed into more (R) trains and can terminate at Canal Street to access the lower level of City Hall to store more trains while the rest go to Coney Island via West End for (R) trains to have Yard Access
Extended subways
(A): Co-op City to WTC via
(Burke Avenue)
(B): Co-op City to Coney Island via Fordham (Sea Beach)
(C): Floral Park 268th Street to
(Beach 25th Street)/Lefferts Blvd
(D): 168th Street to Richmond Hill
(E): Rosedale to Euclid Aveune
(F): Jamaica 179th Street to Coney Island (Culver EXP)
(G): Jamaica 179th Street to Church Ave (Culver Lcl)
(J): Belmont Park to Broad Street
(L): American Dream to Canarsie Pier via (10th Avenue) (Henry Hudson Parkway)
(M): Metropolitan Aveune to Jacob Riis Park (Queenslink)
(N): Gun Hill Rd to Coney Island
(3rd Ave EL) (Brighton EXP)
(Q): St Nicholas Avenue to Ocean Parkway via 125th Crosstown (Brighton Lcl)
(R): LaGuardia Airport to Coney Island (West End)
(W): LaGuardia Airport to Red Hook (Montague Tunnel)
(T): Hangover Square to Co-op City (Pelham EL) the (6) will get cut back to Hunts Point Aveune
IRT Extended Subways
(1): St George to Riverdale Yonkers
(St George Tunnel) Replacement for Staten Island Ferry
(2): Wakefield 241st to Kings Hwy (Nostrand Ave)
(3): New Rochelle Iona College to Kings Hwy (Nostrand Ave)
(4): Gateway Center Mall to Cross County Mall (Jerome EXP)
(5): Kings Plaza to Cross Country Mall (Utica Ave) (Jerome Lcl)
(6): Hunts Point Aveune to Brooklyn Bridge
(7): Secaucus NJ to College Point or LaGuardia Airport
(Lincoln Tunnel) (Northern Blvd)
(Horace Harding Expwy)
@@CR1Creativethe D would run to Richmond Ave in Staten Island and the terminal would have tail tracks that extend to a new yard as for the 7 to LGA you’re better off extend the R there as the 7 can go to College Point and then implementRegional Rail for the Port Washington Branch between there and Grand Central which is far cheaper than the 7 train project east of Main St.
With the R we would reconfigure 25th Ave as an express station so that we can end the locals there and then build a flyover track that can turn R Trains to the Coney Island Yard.
@@Reformperson
Great Idea as that can also allow for peak direction express service on West End and we should build another Flyover track after Ocean Parkway to access the Culver line to turn around more trains to Coney Island Yard
The Bronx services to and from Manhattan are over capacity currently 93 trains per hour run between the Bronx and Manhattan trains can handle about 180,000 riders per hour the bronx currently has 580,000 workers with 333,000 of them working in the four other boroughs not all of them will go to Manhattan first regional rail on metro north would help with some of the capacity constraints to Manhattan De-lnterlinig is a powerful tool to increase capacity to maximze capacity reverse branching needs to end this means that the 3 will get extended to the bronx after 149th street grand concourse 3 trains will stay with 4 trains via Jerome Aveune line up until Bedford Park Blvd To make this all happen The 142nd street junction and the 135th street station needs to be reconfigured the existing southbound platform will be converted for serving shuttle trains between 135th street to harlem 148th street while existing northbound platform converted into an island platform serving the 2 and 3 trains with this the Bronx Bound track will be moved to the east while at Bedford Park Blvd the station should get expanded to accommodate short turning 3 trains Here 3 trains can terminate on the outer tracks while 4 trains continue to Woodlawn on the inner tracks as Woodlawn can only handle 24 trains per hour
I am against the (D) going to Co Op City. What I would do, is have the 2nd Avenue Subway line to Co Op City - Boston Road line, to go along with a Throgs Neck line.
I like the (5) to Woodlawn with the (4) as the distinction would be in Brooklyn to Flatbush Avenue. I like the (3) to Eastchester - Dyre, however the (2) will have to add a new (8) line. The (2) would operate between Wakefield and Utica Avenue - with the (4), while the new (8) would replace the (3) at Lenox Terminal and extend South to Flatbush Avenue, with the (5).
Regarding Bronx Crosstown lines, that can be solved via (1) a Bronx to Queens line parallel to the Q44 SBS via Fordham/Kingsbridge (Bx9/Bx12/Bx22) and White Plains Road to Soundview - Clason's Point (Bx22/Bx39) before crossing the East River into College Point and follow the current Q65 (Queens Bus Redesign route Q27) and Q25/Q34 (Queens Bus Redesign Q25) to Jamaica, then extend with the (E) to Farmers - Guy R. Brewer Blvd, (2) Co Op City line built into the Rockaway Beach Branch (filling in the gap between Co Op City and Throgs Neck) to go along with the Co Op City line built into 2nd Avenue Subway, and (3) let the Concourse (D) line extend to Williamsbridge replacing the former 3rd Avenue El tracks below the White Plains Road line.
Why is this? The answer is simple. The Queens line would present cross connections between the (1), (2), (4), (5), (6), (B) and (D) lines to where a person in Riverdale commuting to Schuylerville will have a more direct option than the Bx9 to West Farms Square with transfer to the Bx40/Bx42. A person at Tracey Towers going to Soundview would simply take a (4) or (5) to Kingsbridge and transfer to the Queens Line, which is much better than the Bx1/Bx2 to East Tremont Avenue for a transfer to the Bx36. A Person at Hunts Point Avenue going to Wakefield can simply link the (6) with the (2) via Parkchester using the Queens line, which is better than the Bx5/Bx19 to Westchester Avenue with transfer to the (2) or using the (6) to Parkchester with transfer to the Bx39.
Also, if going to Yankee Stadium from Co Op City, you can simply use the 2nd Avenue Subway line to around East 161st Street to transfer to the Bx6 SBS. White Plains Road line customers will benefit from that with transfers to the Co Op City line at West Farms Square and East 174th Streets. With this in mind, I would have the Queens line branch to Yankee Stadium which will help fill in more service gaps.
Let the 8 Thrid Avenue Elevated line run on its old line Gun hill road Clearmount Webster Boston road Bronx like they did before and 149 street Thrid Avenue Elevated connecting to the 2 5 trains free transfers.
None of what you’re saying makes any sense since having the D go to Co-op City is more practical and beneficial compared to having the 2nd Avenue Subway go there (which shouldn’t).
Also we don’t need a Bronx to Queens crosstown line. The ridership potential is not there.
@@TheRailLeaguer Let me tell you something.
I definitely agree that the 2nd Avenue Subway should be 4 tracks because in order to operate 4 lines on a 2 track corridor, you'll need to cut service. You may get away with 8 minute headways during Off Peak Hours on Subway lines when you operate 4 lines on a 2 track corridor, however Peak Hour service will have to be cut to every 8 minutes (at best 7.5 minutes). What does this mean for the Brighton line? It means the (B) will have to pick up the slack during Peak Hours with 5 minute headways as the (Q) won't be able to operate at a frequency higher than 7.5 minutes. This means to have 3 Second Avenue Subway lines in The bronx and 1 across 125th Street, each line will be limited to 8 minute headways during the Peak Hours. I would propose a new Madison Avenue Subway line which will accommodate a new line to Co Op City so that the frequency can be higher (somewhere between 4 and 6 minute headways).
Regarding my proposed Bronx to Queens line, you do not know what potential ridership brings with the Bronx to Jamaica line. With the people frustrated with the 2 fares zones the Q44 SBS presents between Southeast Queens and Bronx areas (those who take a bus to Jamaica Center for connection to the Q44 SBS and a bus or Subway in The Bronx), or those who travel between Woodhaven and Woodlawn (with the Queens Bus Redesign extending the Q44 SBS to Fordham Plaza), the Subway line would draw people from the (1), (2), (4), (5), (6), (7), (B), (D), (E), (F), (J) and (Z) lines for this more-direct trip between The Bronx and Queens. This line will draw more Bronx residents to take jobs at Jamaica Hospital (they would transfer to (E) trains at Jamaica Center), St. John's University (they would transfer to Q46 buses at Union Tpke - Parsons Blvd), Queens College (they would simply take the Subway there), Citi Field/Arthur Ashe Stadium (they would transfer to the (7) in Downtown Flushing), JFK Airport (they would transfer to the (E)/(J)/(Z) at Jamaica Center then transfer to the AIRTRAIN), Long Island Jewish Medical Center (they would transfer to Q46 buses at Union Tpke - Parsons Blvd), and other areas in Eastern Queens and Western Nassau where they would need to connect to/from NICE Bus service. Not only that, Queens residents benefit as they now have better access to Bronx job centers than riding via Midtown Manhattan, plus the line itself gains Manhattan-bound commmuters who transfer to (7) trains in Downtown Flushing and (J)/(Z) trains in Downtown Jamaica. This is much more than what the Q44 SBS can do as a vital link between Jamaica and The Bronx (although it won't eliminate or cut the route).
Also, Bronx interconnectivity is improved as Riverdale to Throgs Neck would be via this line with transfers at 225th Street/Broadway and in Soundview, rather than someone on the slower Bx9 with transfer to the Bx40/Bx42,
Add a Co Op City line extended via the Rockaway Beach Branch, and now you get a line directly to LaGuardia Airport (via transfer in Soundview and Hunts Point).
To add on to this, the (Q) would be the Co Op City line (along 2nd Avenue Subway).
@@ahmadfrw1 You seriously make no sense as none of what you propose is feasible or practical, especially your dumb Bronx to Queens lines. There’s literally no subway demand or potential for the routes your propose. You might as well stick to advocating for common sense proposals like enhancing bus service, a D train subway extension to Co-op CIty, etc, all of which would provide more ridership potential than what you propose. Also no one is proposing cutting headways on subway trains at all.
Also, the ROckaway Beach Branch would be better off going to the Queens Blvd Line and into Manhattan via the 53rd and 63rd Street Tunnels. That’s more logical than your dumbass RBB to LGA and Bronx line.
In fact, just step aside and let the experts handle this (and you are no expert on mass transit at all).