Ooooo! New upgrades while I was out today! Looking forward to riding this and reporting back on how it goes. I do LOVE my quiet free-hub. Let's see how this performs.
I agree. Love a quiet freehub, and also like high POE. I run 90 POE on my MTB and its hard to imagine going back to the standard 18 - 24, but road biking is different. I do like the prospect of easier clip ins though! Is the 54T louder, assuming a healthy dose of special grease on the ratchets?
All this work and I didn't even get to upgrade MY bike! 😅 (Hope you're well mate! I saw on Strava you did some unplanned low altitude riding the other day)
@@gplama Haha! But I'm sure you get a gold star that you can use for your own upgrades without complaints ;) Cheers mate! I like the term low altitude riding haha... All good, no festive500 for me but I'll back next year 😁
You should try the Onyx sprag clutch hubs wih INSTANT engagement and silent freehub. I switched from them to DT Swiss and the 54T was a must uograde for me as I was spoilt by instant engagement and couldn't go back anymore to a 36T even.
Same, but for $105 USD shipped, the DT Swiss upgrade is a tad cheaper, even if only 50% as good as a Vesper Hub. Vespers are on my "A Race" wheels (Onyx, CX-Ray, Astral Serpentine), upgraded hub are on the back ups, OE Cannondale "Hollowgram" (aka DTSwiss) wheels.
I have been riding with Chris King Classic Hubs on my road bike since 2015. The rear hub has 72 points of engagement, which is fantastic IMO and the "angry bee" buzz is not as loud as many newer hubs that I have heard out on the road. The hubs are easy to service, when required, which is not often due to my dry California road rides and are built to last. I know of riders still running their hubs since the '90's. Pricey, but great product.
also remember that on a pawl system there is often offset in the pawls so not all of them engage at the same time ,though you need 4 or 6 pawls for this, so they only click in 2 or 3 of them at time, this cuts down on the engagement angle from just counting the number on the rachet.
@@lucasg2895I thought Industry 9 had sorted out the issues they had with this? But yes, it can cause other issues because it relies on material flex to function which is somewhat questionable.
Where this is even more noticable is in cyclocross, where you constantly start pedaling really hard (almost sprinting) after every corner. Currently I'm using Zipp 303 s for cyclocross as these are not that heavy and not overly expensive, yet really sturdy, quite aero for the faster courses (not that that's really necessary) and most importantly I already had them, but the freehub engagement on these is… well, not ideal for cyclocross usage to say the least. I might get myself some more CX focused wheels somewhen in the future (shallower, lighter and most importantly with fast engaging hub), but after recently buying a new road bike, Zipp 404 Firecrest wheels to go on it and two powermeters, I've already spent enough on cycling this period 😅.
The counter-point of why high-engagement hubs are typically not specced as default for the road is due to the loss of kinetic energy (the buzz) from coasting. From memory, Dt Swiss spec 36 POE for both the 240 and 180 ratchet hubs as standard with a 54 ratchet available as an upgrade, and the new engagement system EXP is 36 POE with no upgrade available.
36T is the sweet spot for road bikes. I had a 54T on one of my wheelsets and it sounded like an angry hornets nest when freewheeling. It was a bit obnoxious. The exception is if you’re a sprinter and need that instant engagement.
For me, changing from the stock OEM wheels and hubs to a 350 (36 tooth) was very noticeable too. And when commuting (in Sydney), the quicker engagement to me is very important on hills and light stops.
After being spoiled with some mavic ID360 hubs with 40 teeth I hate my Tacx Neo 2T. I was wondering the same thing about trainers, especially the more expensive ones, how come they have such shitty hubs?
@@lordalfa600Using heavily-sealed bearings could help too. My wheelset only allows me to hit 64 kph at most on a descent (even with me tucked) because of this and the fact that nothing on my bike is aerodynamic apart from my fork blades.
The 54's have smaller teeth and don't last as long. Great for a crit only bike. A 36 is plenty good for most weekend warriors. Also changing the 350 hub is much easier than a 240 or 180.
@@oiyo5124 Swapping the Star Ratchets in a Ratchet System-equipped DT Swiss hubset is so easy it can be done at home without tools. Here's the sequence starting with the rear wheel already off the bike: 1) Pull the cassette out to pull the freehub body out. The hub endcap will pop off the hub axle and stay captive under the cassette's lockring. 2) Remove the outer conical spring, Star Ratchets, inner conical spring and hub axle sleeve. 3) Unpack the new Ratchet System Service kit. 4) Apply a thin layer of DT Swiss Special Grease on the Star Ratchets. 5) Install the new conical springs and Star Ratchets, reuse the hub axle sleeve. 6) Grease hub axle, reinstall freehub body. It's that easy. With Ratchet EXP, you need a Ratchet EXP tool to remove the inner Star Ratchet as it's now a hybrid combination with the hub shell lockring that now houses the hub's right-side bearing, giving the rear hub a wider bearing stance. Removing this part of a DT Swiss hub (lockring and Ratchet EXP inner Star Ratchet) requires a lot of torque just to crack it loose and is usually done with the tool clamped to a bench vice. In terms of freehub mechanism service, they're both identically easy.
I got the 350's with 36T on my DT Swiss E512 MTB wheels- I got some cheap H1900 wheels (£49 each!) in a Wiggle sale (needed wider than 25mm ID rims for off road) but being 370 hubs they came with the 3 pawl system...it is possible to buy a conversion but you then also need 2 (QUALITY- not Ali Express cheese) tools to remove/install them- think it totalled over £200...just left them on the 3 pawl as it kinda defeated the "bargain" I got.... H1900's doing fine, and that's on a KTM E-MTB....
One thing to note, DT Swiss themselves don’t actually recommend the 54T for most people as yes you gain in kickback, but you lose out in other areas. They recommend max 36T for road application. MTB/trails need it for the control when cadence is really low going uphill. Although it looks a significant difference when you do that static test, in a real world case, on road bikes for example, the wattage/responsive savings would be virtually unmeasurable. When you think you do 1.5 revolutions of the cranks per second, the time it takes to pick up that slack wouldn’t even register in race mode when pedalling at real life speeds as you could turn the cranks 54 degrees (per sample point (assuming 10Hz) 1.5/10 * 360. So given it would be unmeasurable and even DT Swiss don’t recommend it I’d be amazed if this is something trainer manufacturers implement. By the way, still love the video, it’s just this is a rabbit hole I’ve been down before, just went a little deeper 😂
@@matteo.ceriottiMain issue is in durability, especially if you are a powerful rider. I'm not sure I agree with @aerobrain2001 on the MTB side of things either. Yes having a really fast pick up on an MTB is nice on techy stuff where a large pick up rotation can make your life much harder, you are putting down a very large amount of force so those fine teeth are going to take a battering if you are strong or heavy. 18 POE is slow but 36 is probably the sweet spot for most people. These upgrade kits are not cheap!
Your assumption that we are turning the cranks 1.5 times per second does not come into play when you would need the lower engagement angles. Such as when you are coasting down hill, coasting a bit in the draft before you release the sprint etc. THIS is is the time when you need these not when you are turning the cranks and the free hub is engaged.
@@bighammer3464 haha yes I know it doesn’t apply whilst you’re pedalling!! My point is that as you go from coasting to pedalling, the rate of turning the cranks is much quicker (in road/trainer applications) than in the static test Shane demoed in the video turning with his hand to find the bite point.
There's a lot to be said for just straight feel on this as well. In the same way that I never liked mech Shimano because I like the solid brake levers of Sram, I just *like* very low backlash. For me it's just a preference that I like having near-instant engagement.
UAE (and other teams) uses 40 engagement points vs much higher why? Frictional issues when you have more points of engagement. On a road bike the amount of angle matters less than on a mountain bike.
I would imagine the reason that they don't care about the engagement angle is that even with 10 Hz race mode, that is the major cause of lag - not the freehub engagement. At 90 RPM, you have ~50 degrees of crank rotation before the next update in a 1:1 gear ratio. To get down to the ~20 degrees or so you would need for the dominant source of lag to be freehub engagement, you're talking about < 30 RPM in a 1:1 ratio.
I was thinking there had to be a reason why 18t exists as there are always trade-offs. Interesting that you actually noticed a difference. "Coasting drag test" would make for an interesting video
All I'll say is 'sprag clutch'! I got a rear hub with one and I love it. Heavy but totally worth it for the piece and quiet as well as instant engagement.
Definitely no. On a mountain bike it makes sense. On a road bike the upgrade is a trade off between longevity and basically no meaningful improvements. On road, suppose you ride at 100 rpm, the time for one revolution is 60/100 second. With a 20 degree engagement angle your fraction of engagement is 20/360, and therefore the longest time needed for engagement is 20/360 * 60/100 = 0.03336 seconds. Now, assume you need the ratchet to engage when you just start pedaling. Let's say 20 rpm, the new longest time for engagement is now 20/360 * 60/20 = 0.1668 seconds. That's still not a lot of time for the first ratchet engagement. By going from a 18T ratchet to 56T, you have more than tripled the amount of contacts on coasting, and you have simultaneously decreased the size of each ratchet tooth significantly. By using less material with more wear, you end up with a system that's significantly more fragile with less longevity, all for not a lot of gains.
@@gplama Not really. What's calculated here is the maximum time for the next engagement to happen. In order to "engage" the rear hub you are going from coasting (freehub body is moving relative to the cassette) to active engagement (freehub body is moving with the cassette). During coasting, the rear wheel and the freehub body are moving, but the ratchet mechanism inside the freehub is not engaged. This means that although the wheel is turning, the ratchet (and thus the cassette attached to it) is not moving in sync with the wheel. The pedals and crank arms can be stationary or moving independently of the wheel's rotation. The speed of the rear wheel during coasting does not really affect the time it takes for the ratchet to engage when you start pedaling. The engagement time is primarily determined by the design of the ratchet mechanism (number of teeth and thus engagement angle) and the speed at which the rider starts pedaling. Whether the wheel is spinning fast or slow, the ratchet will engage in the same amount of time once the rider pedals.
@@HoshinoMirai Just to be clear, the 20 degrees is at the hub. If you are in, say, the 52 tooth ring and the 13 tooth sprocket (4:1), you will have 5 degree engagement at the crank.
@@stephenturkLA Very nice catch. yeah, my calculation ignores the gear ratio's affect on the actual engagement angle, though, I believe my point still holds.
@@HoshinoMirai the gear ratio is a big reason why the optimal engagement is different for road vs mountain. On a mountain bike with, say, 34T chainring and 51T sprocket, a hub with 18 POE is going to give engagement of 30 degrees at the cranks!
IMO for road bikes 36T is more than enough considering the style of pedaling, speed and gear ratios, even 18T should work. It requires less maintenance and has less freehub drag compared to 54T. For MTB 54T could be beneficial due to very low gear ratios and speeds when climbing and plenty of stop and go pedaling due to obstacle avoidance.
Not sure why they don’t use very high PoE or even sprag clutches like Onyx hubs have. None of the virtual cycling platforms need to worry about the extra drag during coasting because it doesn’t translate into the virtual world. Sprag clutches would also be virtually silent.
The cost to manufacture a 18, 36 or a 54 cog is mostly the same. I find it very disappointing when manufacturers are still selling wheelsets with 18t and then charging a premium for cyclists to upgrade which should have been a standard in the first place. I just recently bought a wheelset form the same DT Swiss and honestly was disappointed to find a 18t in 2023 ...
as DT Swiss says on their website, "In the development of an optimal freehub system we believe that three factors have to be considered: reliability, weight and points of engagement. But you must bear in mind that there is a trade-off between all of these three dimensions." 18T is the most reliable, requires the least servicing, and the quietest. It's the best choice for many riders.
I asked a mechanic this same question. He mentioned more engagement also more Friction during coasting. Not sure if that is significant, really only applies to descending while not pedaling.
There are downsides to high engagement hubs, which im surprised you didn't mention. The higher engagement hubs obviously mean smaller teeth, therefore more likely to break/wear. Also, they will be less efficient as you've clearly got more friction from more touching parts. On the road at higher speeds/bigger gears, the higher engagement is a bit of a waste. Off road or stop start riding the higher engagement is worth it for the reasons you mentioned although with the higher maintenance. The 36 tooth dt swiss ratchet is a nice middle ground for the road. On the turbo, give me big, reliable pawls and fewer teeth. The sampling rate doesn't really allow for the engagement to be an issue.
From my subjective experience ratchet systems feel quite a bit more draggy than the pawl. And the more teeth the more drag. Try rotating your cranks backwards on the stand and see how quickly the wheel starts turning. Also spin the cranks forward and see how much chain suck you get. Obviously it also depends on how much you grease them, but in my comparison I'm referring to stock levels of grease.
I never thought to consider that "clunk" I sometimes hear on the trainer--and that drives me crazy wondering what is wrong--is the freehub ratchet re-engaging after turning 𝛉° freely after a short coast. Gracias on that, @GPLama. My 180 EXP hubs come with 36T ratchet rings, but I think I'll stay with the 36T rings to save a bit of friction and a lot of money. The upgrade kit for 54T, with the extraction tool included, is $190 US! That's almost 2/3 the cost of the Gore Shakedry jacket I'm saving for (Don't tell my wife!). Also, the 10° engagement angle that comes with the 36T engagement ring is loads better than the 13.3° (27T) engagement angle of my old PT G3 rear hub) and even bigger loads better than the 15° engagement angle of the White Industries hub that preceded the PT hub. Is there freehub coast-down test in GPLama's future? Now I'm interested to know how big the fictional losses are for the 54T ratchet ring over the 36T ratchet ring.
I upgraded my low end DT Swiss E1800s from 3 pawl to ratchet. The kit was on the DT Swiss web sight. But it came with 18 pt ratchet. No difference in play. But I upgraded that to 54 pt ratchets and got the play out. Where it most helps is on climbs.
There’s a little known 24t ratchet available from DTswiss which splits the difference between the 18t and 36t. It reduces engagement to 15 degrees and is a worthy upgrade being quieter and less draggy than the 36t while also being more robust since it is designed as an eBike part - far more solid than the “SL” lightweight 36/54t offerings.
I upgraded to 54 T on my DT Swiss 350 hubs on my road bike but went back to the 18T the very next day. There is less of an engagement angle, but it honestly didn't turn out to be that important after all, and the 54t has significant disadvantages on a road bike. The main one is that the 54T rachet is VERY loud and annoying; it sounds like you're being chased down the road by an enormous demented wasp. In addition, there seems to be more drag with the 54T rachet, though that might just be because I was a bit too stingy with the grease when I swapped rachets. If you're not riding on seriously technical terrain, or doing a lot of sprinting or crit racing, the 54T may be an unnecessary waste of money.
I run 54's on my gravel bike. Sure they wear out faster than 36's but quite a safety feature to alert pedestrians and animals. Yeah it's obnoxious when full coast but that can be modulated by keeping the pedals turning.
The engagement angle at the crank is dependent on the chosen gearing. In a high gear the engagement angle is small. Since on a road bike one never freewheels while in a low gear, increasing the hub's engagement angle on a road bike is pointless to me. As vongdong10 pointed out the tradeoff in a 54T is the extra friction while coasting. For me the best ratchet is 18T for road, 36T for gravel, and 54T for MTB.
I switched from 18 to 36 teeth a couple years ago on my road bike. Very simple w DT Swiss. The effect was like a supercharged version of replacing an old worn chain.
Thx for this I had no idea how easy it is to change the ratchet. Been wanting to have more pints on my mtb for the type of riding I do. Thot I had to get a whole new hub so never did it. I hope you post more on mtb specific on this subject.
Did my upgrade about a week after you posted this, but only took my MTB with those wheels out this weekend. 100% can tell a difference in engagement, and with the rock gardens I encountered it was a worthy upgrade. Thanks incoming...
Thoughts on that Wahoo trainer? How does it compare to direct mount, can it handle erg mode? I might update my Suito and because I have 4iiii power this system is an option.
It is one of those things that you wouldn't think would matter, but does. I noticed a huge improvement with more engagement points (also almost silent, which I like). Now, I need to change that in my other wheels ...
Great Video. Years ago, when I was still racing, I got a new set of roval wheels and immediately upgraded the Star Ratchet. Note that for “special grease” I still use the light, clear Shimano grease. If you don’t keep it greased it will get noisy. But even well maintained these are a bit noisy. People often told me in races they could hear me in my attempt to stealthily draft them before a pass. I believe most people will not notice much of a difference but if you are looking for marginal gains, go ahead. Also, for mtn biking, I think this is super important and the smaller than angle the better. IMO.
Yeah I upgraded my ratchets on my wheels years ago and have been doing it ever since. It's awesome 😂Great video explaining the benefits - really great.
Any reccys for grease for the ratchets? I don't have any DT special grease, only some thick stuff from the hardware store. I saw a video from another TH-camr a while back where he recommended a low consistency grease (eg: NLGI 0 or lower) to get a nice loud freehub sound, but I haven't been able to find anything like that
You need a semi liquid grease and not a thick one which means pretty much NLGI 0 which has the consistency of apple sauce. You can get this spec grease easily from the main lubricants manufacturers, but they only want to sell you 500ml tubs and its usually a similar price to buy the DT Swiss special grease as you will need so little of it. Thick grease will lead to inconsistent engagement of the splines.
I have the 54 tooth ratchet on my gravel bike and it’s amazing for two reasons. The low engagement angle is perfect for heavy terrain with a lot of rocks or roots. Makes it so much easier to maneuver through. Second. Brrrrrrrrrrrrttttt. No need to use the bell. Everyone’s running away in fear when you decent a fire road with 40kph 😂
Smaller engagement angle is achieved with smaller tooth... What about their reliability then? Wouldn't they be faster to wear out? Also they have less time to properly engage. What about putting power down? It's cool, I like free stroke to be as small as possible, but I don't wanna risk reliability.
36t is a good intermediate point. I've never heard of any reliability issues with it. Even 54t is going to be more reliable than a 3pawl system though.
I have the 54t on both my MTB and road bikes. Other riders tend to complain about how loud it is, especially the road bike (Roval CLX50 wheelset). FYI the upgrade kit is way over priced, you can buy just the the ratchets as a spare for significantly less, and the springs don't change. I already had the "special grease". I think the main benefit for a MTB is when you need to ratchet the crank to avoid an obstacle. I also think pedal kickback is mostly BS, as it doesn't exist when the rear wheel is actually rotating forward (the forward rotation serves to more than cancel the effect); it's only used to justify ugly high-pivot layouts. Finally there are two different ratchet systems from DT swiss, this video show the original style (which I also have), but there is the new ratchet EXP (which did have some manufacturing issues) so you'll need to be sure an know which version you have.
Hi Shane, You were discussing the POEs, would you know off hand what (whose) fhbs the Wahoo core machines use? Im inclined to say its a part they buy in and dont manufacture themselves; although i could be wrong. Thanks man, mark
Interesting. I came here because, for the first time ever on a road bike, i noticed an engagement lag on my new road bike/wheels. Turns out my new Roval Rapide CLII come with a 36t 35o hub! Which, according to Specialized and TH-cam wisdom, is optimal. So, what to do now?
@gplama always sounds advice 😊 weird though how I've never noticed it before on 40 years of riding road bikes. maybe it's something else confounding the issue?
As a few have already said 36T is the sweet spot for road. 54T is very very loud in group rides, not so much with heavy and thick walled 350 hubs but on 180’s they scream. Also there is the drag factor, 54T does have some drag penalty when coasting downhills at speed. I’ve not had a problem with 36T in that the engagement isn’t a noticeable issue and the hub coasts load enough to not need a bell but not so loud that at 45km/h descents you can’t hear yourself think!
I had a set of Roval CLX32 and was really disappointed they came with 18T engagement, the dead air was awful and made track standing difficult at traffic lights. I swapped to the 54T, but the smaller teeth sone wore down and the engagement started to slip, so swapped to the 36T, which was better.
I don’t know man, this seems like much to do about nothing. The amount of real impact this is likely to have on each of our riding experience is pretty limited. I think you’re fooling yourself if you think this will have a material impact. Almost like a solution looking for a problem.
Well across this from a MTB perspective (love my industry 9 hubs!), but very interesting point getting into the trainer hubs side of this topic particularly for racing. Small marginal gain to be had, but as you say, it’s not nothing!
For gravel I have switched to a wheel set with a high engagement. While riding on rough roads with a high cadence I often get bumped out a smooth stroke. This results in that dreaded clunk as you disengage and reengage the drive. I get far less of this with a high engagement hub. As far as drag from the hub - it’s not a concern for me. If I am not pedalling, I’m normally on the brakes.
Nice on Shane. It's worth noting that the free or non engaged rotation of the crank depends on when the rider decides to stop coasting.....NOT taking anything away from all your 100% valid points. Certainly when the MAXIMUM engagement angle is larger you have a wider range of "free" pedal potential.
I think, ideally, indoor trainers should stick to or switch to roller sprag clutches for their hubs. Virtually instant engagement and virtually silent.
I have the 54 tooth on my mtb and could never go back. I think its less necessary for road and adds drag to the system when coasting. I suspect the durability of the 54 tooth ratchet is diminished - I have heard of them breaking.
Interesting topic. Not really new to me, but good, you bring it up! Last year I purchased some used wheels (with a new retail price which is almost three times my bike's value) and I didn't really notice the weight difference or the speed gain with those aero wheels that much, but the DT Swiss hubs are so perfectly fine, I notice it every time I start pedalling.
I think that the angles you are showing in the screen are only 20°/6,6° if the bike has a 1:1 ratio. 6:49 If you would show them at the rear hub it would be correct.
Engagement angle is just the ratchet itself. The maximum backlash would be the same angle as the engagement angle if the gear ratio is 1:1. (as I understand it). The angles I show when moving the crank on the bike are done in the same gear, so that's just a comparison of before/after.
What happens inside a KICKR bike with their electromagnetic resistance? Do they have a freewheel/pawl engagement with their belt drive or is it instant engagement?
Ooooo! New upgrades while I was out today!
Looking forward to riding this and reporting back on how it goes. I do LOVE my quiet free-hub. Let's see how this performs.
Wait... you LIKED the quiet freehub? I might need to put a little more grease on this ratchet. 😅
@@gplama hahaha!
@@gplamaROJ did a video on *where* to put the grease to quiet that hub. It wasn't where I was expecting.
I agree. Love a quiet freehub, and also like high POE. I run 90 POE on my MTB and its hard to imagine going back to the standard 18 - 24, but road biking is different. I do like the prospect of easier clip ins though! Is the 54T louder, assuming a healthy dose of special grease on the ratchets?
Love me some hub deep dive hub videos to distract me from work! Indept and thorough as always, excellent!
All this work and I didn't even get to upgrade MY bike! 😅 (Hope you're well mate! I saw on Strava you did some unplanned low altitude riding the other day)
@@gplama Haha! But I'm sure you get a gold star that you can use for your own upgrades without complaints ;)
Cheers mate! I like the term low altitude riding haha... All good, no festive500 for me but I'll back next year 😁
@@ridesofjapan I hope you get fired and are forced to make TH-cam videos full time!
@@veganpottertheveganwhat a horrible thing to wish someone 😂
@@ridesofjapan new bibs are dangerous, always take care! I know a lot of people that have crashed their $$$$ new bibs the first ride 😅😅
You should try the Onyx sprag clutch hubs wih INSTANT engagement and silent freehub. I switched from them to DT Swiss and the 54T was a must uograde for me as I was spoilt by instant engagement and couldn't go back anymore to a 36T even.
Came here to mention this.
I love my Onyx rear hub, silence is music to my ears.
Same, but for $105 USD shipped, the DT Swiss upgrade is a tad cheaper, even if only 50% as good as a Vesper Hub. Vespers are on my "A Race" wheels (Onyx, CX-Ray, Astral Serpentine), upgraded hub are on the back ups, OE Cannondale "Hollowgram" (aka DTSwiss) wheels.
I have been riding with Chris King Classic Hubs on my road bike since 2015. The rear hub has 72 points of engagement, which is fantastic IMO and the "angry bee" buzz is not as loud as many newer hubs that I have heard out on the road. The hubs are easy to service, when required, which is not often due to my dry California road rides and are built to last. I know of riders still running their hubs since the '90's. Pricey, but great product.
also remember that on a pawl system there is often offset in the pawls so not all of them engage at the same time ,though you need 4 or 6 pawls for this, so they only click in 2 or 3 of them at time, this cuts down on the engagement angle from just counting the number on the rachet.
And this offset leads to axle failures...
@@lucasg2895how so?
@@lucasg2895I thought Industry 9 had sorted out the issues they had with this? But yes, it can cause other issues because it relies on material flex to function which is somewhat questionable.
I9 definetly figured this out. thousands of MTBers abuse those wheels. nearly zero reports of failureor premature bearing wear
Where this is even more noticable is in cyclocross, where you constantly start pedaling really hard (almost sprinting) after every corner. Currently I'm using Zipp 303 s for cyclocross as these are not that heavy and not overly expensive, yet really sturdy, quite aero for the faster courses (not that that's really necessary) and most importantly I already had them, but the freehub engagement on these is… well, not ideal for cyclocross usage to say the least. I might get myself some more CX focused wheels somewhen in the future (shallower, lighter and most importantly with fast engaging hub), but after recently buying a new road bike, Zipp 404 Firecrest wheels to go on it and two powermeters, I've already spent enough on cycling this period 😅.
The counter-point of why high-engagement hubs are typically not specced as default for the road is due to the loss of kinetic energy (the buzz) from coasting. From memory, Dt Swiss spec 36 POE for both the 240 and 180 ratchet hubs as standard with a 54 ratchet available as an upgrade, and the new engagement system EXP is 36 POE with no upgrade available.
There's a 54T upgrade for DT Swiss hubs using Ratchet EXP.
36T is the sweet spot for road bikes. I had a 54T on one of my wheelsets and it sounded like an angry hornets nest when freewheeling. It was a bit obnoxious. The exception is if you’re a sprinter and need that instant engagement.
Viewer Discretion is Advised
Warning should be applied on this video 😂
Great informative video
For me, changing from the stock OEM wheels and hubs to a 350 (36 tooth) was very noticeable too. And when commuting (in Sydney), the quicker engagement to me is very important on hills and light stops.
After being spoiled with some mavic ID360 hubs with 40 teeth I hate my Tacx Neo 2T. I was wondering the same thing about trainers, especially the more expensive ones, how come they have such shitty hubs?
More PoE has more drag on coasting downhill. That is the disadvantage. Though the angry bees warn other riders that you are coming in hot.
That's a good point about drag. 👌🏼
And noise is energy, so a noisy freewheel is wasting energy when coasting!
I must say it is good on a carbon rim brake wheel. It rolls impeded so that you don't burn your carbon rim brake track trying to scrub speed.
@@lordalfa600Using heavily-sealed bearings could help too. My wheelset only allows me to hit 64 kph at most on a descent (even with me tucked) because of this and the fact that nothing on my bike is aerodynamic apart from my fork blades.
The 54's have smaller teeth and don't last as long. Great for a crit only bike. A 36 is plenty good for most weekend warriors. Also changing the 350 hub is much easier than a 240 or 180.
So DT is weaker than hopes? By how much easier can they differ on maintenance?
@@oiyo5124 Swapping the Star Ratchets in a Ratchet System-equipped DT Swiss hubset is so easy it can be done at home without tools. Here's the sequence starting with the rear wheel already off the bike:
1) Pull the cassette out to pull the freehub body out. The hub endcap will pop off the hub axle and stay captive under the cassette's lockring.
2) Remove the outer conical spring, Star Ratchets, inner conical spring and hub axle sleeve.
3) Unpack the new Ratchet System Service kit.
4) Apply a thin layer of DT Swiss Special Grease on the Star Ratchets.
5) Install the new conical springs and Star Ratchets, reuse the hub axle sleeve.
6) Grease hub axle, reinstall freehub body.
It's that easy.
With Ratchet EXP, you need a Ratchet EXP tool to remove the inner Star Ratchet as it's now a hybrid combination with the hub shell lockring that now houses the hub's right-side bearing, giving the rear hub a wider bearing stance. Removing this part of a DT Swiss hub (lockring and Ratchet EXP inner Star Ratchet) requires a lot of torque just to crack it loose and is usually done with the tool clamped to a bench vice.
In terms of freehub mechanism service, they're both identically easy.
I got the 350's with 36T on my DT Swiss E512 MTB wheels- I got some cheap H1900 wheels (£49 each!) in a Wiggle sale (needed wider than 25mm ID rims for off road) but being 370 hubs they came with the 3 pawl system...it is possible to buy a conversion but you then also need 2 (QUALITY- not Ali Express cheese) tools to remove/install them- think it totalled over £200...just left them on the 3 pawl as it kinda defeated the "bargain" I got.... H1900's doing fine, and that's on a KTM E-MTB....
Just keep the grease in check, it will be noisier as you start to put some miles on it. And use ONLY that red grease
One thing to note, DT Swiss themselves don’t actually recommend the 54T for most people as yes you gain in kickback, but you lose out in other areas. They recommend max 36T for road application. MTB/trails need it for the control when cadence is really low going uphill.
Although it looks a significant difference when you do that static test, in a real world case, on road bikes for example, the wattage/responsive savings would be virtually unmeasurable. When you think you do 1.5 revolutions of the cranks per second, the time it takes to pick up that slack wouldn’t even register in race mode when pedalling at real life speeds as you could turn the cranks 54 degrees (per sample point (assuming 10Hz) 1.5/10 * 360. So given it would be unmeasurable and even DT Swiss don’t recommend it I’d be amazed if this is something trainer manufacturers implement.
By the way, still love the video, it’s just this is a rabbit hole I’ve been down before, just went a little deeper 😂
In which areas you lose with the 54?
@@matteo.ceriotti main two I would say are drag (that noise costs watts!) and durability due to the smaller teeth.
@@matteo.ceriottiMain issue is in durability, especially if you are a powerful rider. I'm not sure I agree with @aerobrain2001 on the MTB side of things either. Yes having a really fast pick up on an MTB is nice on techy stuff where a large pick up rotation can make your life much harder, you are putting down a very large amount of force so those fine teeth are going to take a battering if you are strong or heavy. 18 POE is slow but 36 is probably the sweet spot for most people. These upgrade kits are not cheap!
Your assumption that we are turning the cranks 1.5 times per second does not come into play when you would need the lower engagement angles. Such as when you are coasting down hill, coasting a bit in the draft before you release the sprint etc. THIS is is the time when you need these not when you are turning the cranks and the free hub is engaged.
@@bighammer3464 haha yes I know it doesn’t apply whilst you’re pedalling!! My point is that as you go from coasting to pedalling, the rate of turning the cranks is much quicker (in road/trainer applications) than in the static test Shane demoed in the video turning with his hand to find the bite point.
probably the best hub ever made, simple and highly reliable, we love it
There's a lot to be said for just straight feel on this as well. In the same way that I never liked mech Shimano because I like the solid brake levers of Sram, I just *like* very low backlash. For me it's just a preference that I like having near-instant engagement.
Chose not to learn on this occasion. You’re still a legend Shane. #headinsand #2024problem
UAE (and other teams) uses 40 engagement points vs much higher why? Frictional issues when you have more points of engagement. On a road bike the amount of angle matters less than on a mountain bike.
Love my angry bees freehub. Walkers seem to hear it better than my bell
I would imagine the reason that they don't care about the engagement angle is that even with 10 Hz race mode, that is the major cause of lag - not the freehub engagement. At 90 RPM, you have ~50 degrees of crank rotation before the next update in a 1:1 gear ratio. To get down to the ~20 degrees or so you would need for the dominant source of lag to be freehub engagement, you're talking about < 30 RPM in a 1:1 ratio.
One thing I found from switching to a 54t from 18t is the amount of drag the 54t increases. Coasting is noticeably decreased. 36t is where it's at.
Interesting! I'll see what Mrs Lama reports back and may swap this out for a 36T. 👌🏼
I was thinking there had to be a reason why 18t exists as there are always trade-offs. Interesting that you actually noticed a difference. "Coasting drag test" would make for an interesting video
All I'll say is 'sprag clutch'! I got a rear hub with one and I love it. Heavy but totally worth it for the piece and quiet as well as instant engagement.
I agree. It’s clearly noticeable on a bike stand when spinning the wheel.
Definitely no. On a mountain bike it makes sense. On a road bike the upgrade is a trade off between longevity and basically no meaningful improvements. On road, suppose you ride at 100 rpm, the time for one revolution is 60/100 second. With a 20 degree engagement angle your fraction of engagement is 20/360, and therefore the longest time needed for engagement is 20/360 * 60/100 = 0.03336 seconds. Now, assume you need the ratchet to engage when you just start pedaling. Let's say 20 rpm, the new longest time for engagement is now 20/360 * 60/20 = 0.1668 seconds. That's still not a lot of time for the first ratchet engagement.
By going from a 18T ratchet to 56T, you have more than tripled the amount of contacts on coasting, and you have simultaneously decreased the size of each ratchet tooth significantly. By using less material with more wear, you end up with a system that's significantly more fragile with less longevity, all for not a lot of gains.
Does this factor in rear wheel speed? Doesn’t that need to be taken into account when calculating engagement times?
@@gplama Not really. What's calculated here is the maximum time for the next engagement to happen. In order to "engage" the rear hub you are going from coasting (freehub body is moving relative to the cassette) to active engagement (freehub body is moving with the cassette). During coasting, the rear wheel and the freehub body are moving, but the ratchet mechanism inside the freehub is not engaged. This means that although the wheel is turning, the ratchet (and thus the cassette attached to it) is not moving in sync with the wheel. The pedals and crank arms can be stationary or moving independently of the wheel's rotation. The speed of the rear wheel during coasting does not really affect the time it takes for the ratchet to engage when you start pedaling. The engagement time is primarily determined by the design of the ratchet mechanism (number of teeth and thus engagement angle) and the speed at which the rider starts pedaling. Whether the wheel is spinning fast or slow, the ratchet will engage in the same amount of time once the rider pedals.
@@HoshinoMirai Just to be clear, the 20 degrees is at the hub. If you are in, say, the 52 tooth ring and the 13 tooth sprocket (4:1), you will have 5 degree engagement at the crank.
@@stephenturkLA Very nice catch. yeah, my calculation ignores the gear ratio's affect on the actual engagement angle, though, I believe my point still holds.
@@HoshinoMirai the gear ratio is a big reason why the optimal engagement is different for road vs mountain. On a mountain bike with, say, 34T chainring and 51T sprocket, a hub with 18 POE is going to give engagement of 30 degrees at the cranks!
IMO for road bikes 36T is more than enough considering the style of pedaling, speed and gear ratios, even 18T should work. It requires less maintenance and has less freehub drag compared to 54T. For MTB 54T could be beneficial due to very low gear ratios and speeds when climbing and plenty of stop and go pedaling due to obstacle avoidance.
Not sure why they don’t use very high PoE or even sprag clutches like Onyx hubs have. None of the virtual cycling platforms need to worry about the extra drag during coasting because it doesn’t translate into the virtual world. Sprag clutches would also be virtually silent.
Just omit the freewheel and go fixed gear direct drive. Make it fit a track bike frame for easy fit and setup. Virtual shifting.
Sprag clutches still have a lot of backlash, it just doesn't have fixed locations where it happens.
@@JulianKent Onyx hubs do have a bit of rubber-bandy backlash, though the Box Stealth mechanism seems to have almost none.
The cost to manufacture a 18, 36 or a 54 cog is mostly the same. I find it very disappointing when manufacturers are still selling wheelsets with 18t and then charging a premium for cyclists to upgrade which should have been a standard in the first place. I just recently bought a wheelset form the same DT Swiss and honestly was disappointed to find a 18t in 2023 ...
as DT Swiss says on their website, "In the development of an optimal freehub system we believe that three factors have to be considered: reliability, weight and points of engagement. But you must bear in mind that there is a trade-off between all of these three dimensions." 18T is the most reliable, requires the least servicing, and the quietest. It's the best choice for many riders.
I asked a mechanic this same question. He mentioned more engagement also more Friction during coasting. Not sure if that is significant, really only applies to descending while not pedaling.
If you want to descend fast, it is something to keep in mind. I also prioritise low freehub mechanism friction more than engagement points.
THANKS Shane . THATS the kind of content I'm here for !
There are downsides to high engagement hubs, which im surprised you didn't mention. The higher engagement hubs obviously mean smaller teeth, therefore more likely to break/wear. Also, they will be less efficient as you've clearly got more friction from more touching parts. On the road at higher speeds/bigger gears, the higher engagement is a bit of a waste. Off road or stop start riding the higher engagement is worth it for the reasons you mentioned although with the higher maintenance. The 36 tooth dt swiss ratchet is a nice middle ground for the road. On the turbo, give me big, reliable pawls and fewer teeth. The sampling rate doesn't really allow for the engagement to be an issue.
Yes, this. Mountain bikers have known this for a long time. There are lots of stories of high engagement star ratchets sheared off in DT hubs.
From my subjective experience ratchet systems feel quite a bit more draggy than the pawl. And the more teeth the more drag. Try rotating your cranks backwards on the stand and see how quickly the wheel starts turning. Also spin the cranks forward and see how much chain suck you get.
Obviously it also depends on how much you grease them, but in my comparison I'm referring to stock levels of grease.
As a track rider I can't say as I relate...
Even out on the road I just don't stop pedaling 😂
I love my DT 240 EXPs just wish they were a bit quieter. (I'm going to try adding some of the DT Special grease to quiet them)
What ratchet are you running 36 or 54?
Extra dt grease does help out a lot
@@rafaeldegiacomoaraujo8778 by ...creating more drag and interfering with engagement.
@@gplama 36 very angry 🐝s
@@rafaeldegiacomoaraujo8778 yes I'm going to try that
I never thought to consider that "clunk" I sometimes hear on the trainer--and that drives me crazy wondering what is wrong--is the freehub ratchet re-engaging after turning 𝛉° freely after a short coast. Gracias on that, @GPLama. My 180 EXP hubs come with 36T ratchet rings, but I think I'll stay with the 36T rings to save a bit of friction and a lot of money. The upgrade kit for 54T, with the extraction tool included, is $190 US! That's almost 2/3 the cost of the Gore Shakedry jacket I'm saving for (Don't tell my wife!). Also, the 10° engagement angle that comes with the 36T engagement ring is loads better than the 13.3° (27T) engagement angle of my old PT G3 rear hub) and even bigger loads better than the 15° engagement angle of the White Industries hub that preceded the PT hub.
Is there freehub coast-down test in GPLama's future? Now I'm interested to know how big the fictional losses are for the 54T ratchet ring over the 36T ratchet ring.
I upgraded my low end DT Swiss E1800s from 3 pawl to ratchet. The kit was on the DT Swiss web sight. But it came with 18 pt ratchet. No difference in play. But I upgraded that to 54 pt ratchets and got the play out. Where it most helps is on climbs.
Now whenever I'm on my smart trainer (Neo) I'm going to be like the kid from that movie..."I see dead ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ zones" 😂
There’s a little known 24t ratchet available from DTswiss which splits the difference between the 18t and 36t. It reduces engagement to 15 degrees and is a worthy upgrade being quieter and less draggy than the 36t while also being more robust since it is designed as an eBike part - far more solid than the “SL” lightweight 36/54t offerings.
Interesting!
FWIW the Saris H3 is 34 clicks through 360 deg or roughly 10 deg per click.
i need that, $$$ :)
I upgraded to 54 T on my DT Swiss 350 hubs on my road bike but went back to the 18T the very next day. There is less of an engagement angle, but it honestly didn't turn out to be that important after all, and the 54t has significant disadvantages on a road bike. The main one is that the 54T rachet is VERY loud and annoying; it sounds like you're being chased down the road by an enormous demented wasp. In addition, there seems to be more drag with the 54T rachet, though that might just be because I was a bit too stingy with the grease when I swapped rachets. If you're not riding on seriously technical terrain, or doing a lot of sprinting or crit racing, the 54T may be an unnecessary waste of money.
Worth noting you can do this upgrade on the newer 370 Ratchet LN hubs found on the cheaper DT Swiss wheels
Btw first trainer to be able to find a way to objectively weigh the rider will quickly become a Zwift requirement.
I run 54's on my gravel bike. Sure they wear out faster than 36's but quite a safety feature to alert pedestrians and animals. Yeah it's obnoxious when full coast but that can be modulated by keeping the pedals turning.
"Goodwin's wallet": Damn you Lama!
I should have bailed at the elevator music I guess... 🙂
The engagement angle at the crank is dependent on the chosen gearing. In a high gear the engagement angle is small. Since on a road bike one never freewheels while in a low gear, increasing the hub's engagement angle on a road bike is pointless to me. As vongdong10 pointed out the tradeoff in a 54T is the extra friction while coasting. For me the best ratchet is 18T for road, 36T for gravel, and 54T for MTB.
You also just hit on one of the differences between a high-quality socket wrench and a cheap one.
This matters offroad, on road meh... I have DTSwiss hubs with various star rachet models, on road I don't notice. Offroad sure
Oh Lama! I should have stopped watching at the pause! Damnit, now I want 6.6 degree engagement!😁😂
I switched from 18 to 36 teeth a couple years ago on my road bike. Very simple w DT Swiss. The effect was like a supercharged version of replacing an old worn chain.
Thx for this I had no idea how easy it is to change the ratchet. Been wanting to have more pints on my mtb for the type of riding I do. Thot I had to get a whole new hub so never did it. I hope you post more on mtb specific on this subject.
Did my upgrade about a week after you posted this, but only took my MTB with those wheels out this weekend. 100% can tell a difference in engagement, and with the rock gardens I encountered it was a worthy upgrade. Thanks incoming...
I think one advantage of the 18T ratchet is the easier lerning of a track stand; you can balance more on the crank without forward progress
Thanks for confirming my three sets of carbon wheels need upgrading.
Some bontrager(trek) hubs have a similar upgrade, they come fitted with 3 pawls, but have room for 6
Thoughts on that Wahoo trainer? How does it compare to direct mount, can it handle erg mode? I might update my Suito and because I have 4iiii power this system is an option.
You can easily fix this by just not stopping pedaling. 😅
That is reason you ride fixed gear. Problem solved :>
Uphill starts is where the 54T ratchet really comes in handy.
It is one of those things that you wouldn't think would matter, but does. I noticed a huge improvement with more engagement points (also almost silent, which I like). Now, I need to change that in my other wheels ...
Very nice video, you’re right though, I want more engagement now!
Great Video. Years ago, when I was still racing, I got a new set of roval wheels and immediately upgraded the Star Ratchet. Note that for “special grease” I still use the light, clear Shimano grease. If you don’t keep it greased it will get noisy. But even well maintained these are a bit noisy. People often told me in races they could hear me in my attempt to stealthily draft them before a pass. I believe most people will not notice much of a difference but if you are looking for marginal gains, go ahead. Also, for mtn biking, I think this is super important and the smaller than angle the better. IMO.
Am I wrong in thinking I can check my current setup by counting the clicks for a whole rotation?
I think with 36 engagement points the engagement angle is 5 degree on average. 10 degree would be the maximum engagement angle.
Yeah I upgraded my ratchets on my wheels years ago and have been doing it ever since. It's awesome 😂Great video explaining the benefits - really great.
Any reccys for grease for the ratchets? I don't have any DT special grease, only some thick stuff from the hardware store. I saw a video from another TH-camr a while back where he recommended a low consistency grease (eg: NLGI 0 or lower) to get a nice loud freehub sound, but I haven't been able to find anything like that
You need a semi liquid grease and not a thick one which means pretty much NLGI 0 which has the consistency of apple sauce. You can get this spec grease easily from the main lubricants manufacturers, but they only want to sell you 500ml tubs and its usually a similar price to buy the DT Swiss special grease as you will need so little of it. Thick grease will lead to inconsistent engagement of the splines.
Super interesting and useful content as always. Nice one!
Very good info about the upgrade kit. Thank you.
Thanks good info in this video! Also interesting thoughts on smart trainers too!
Well, I was warned. Now I want to do an upgrade.
Nice vid and even better bike the other half has
I don’t get why anyone would have a low engagement?
I have the 54 tooth ratchet on my gravel bike and it’s amazing for two reasons. The low engagement angle is perfect for heavy terrain with a lot of rocks or roots. Makes it so much easier to maneuver through.
Second. Brrrrrrrrrrrrttttt. No need to use the bell. Everyone’s running away in fear when you decent a fire road with 40kph 😂
👍👍👍 for the Lama Lab! Well explained!
Very interesting insight regarding the trainers!
Smaller engagement angle is achieved with smaller tooth... What about their reliability then? Wouldn't they be faster to wear out? Also they have less time to properly engage. What about putting power down?
It's cool, I like free stroke to be as small as possible, but I don't wanna risk reliability.
My understanding is they don't last as long.
So true. 54T does die. Haven't heard about this problem with 18T
36t is a good intermediate point. I've never heard of any reliability issues with it. Even 54t is going to be more reliable than a 3pawl system though.
Great video well presented!
When I race of Zwift it's *thousands* of seconds that matter, not thousandths 🤣
Micro training. It's the new thing! 🤣
And I thought listening to gravel racers discuss the nuances of tire pressure was peak-tedium. 😉
At least this was more about cycling than a garage opener.... 🤣
I love my 240s with 54t
I upgraded fromt 18t to 36t and IMMEDIATELY.. noticed no difference. At least on my gravel bike it didnt improve my riding experience.
I have the 54t on both my MTB and road bikes. Other riders tend to complain about how loud it is, especially the road bike (Roval CLX50 wheelset).
FYI the upgrade kit is way over priced, you can buy just the the ratchets as a spare for significantly less, and the springs don't change. I already had the "special grease".
I think the main benefit for a MTB is when you need to ratchet the crank to avoid an obstacle. I also think pedal kickback is mostly BS, as it doesn't exist when the rear wheel is actually rotating forward (the forward rotation serves to more than cancel the effect); it's only used to justify ugly high-pivot layouts.
Finally there are two different ratchet systems from DT swiss, this video show the original style (which I also have), but there is the new ratchet EXP (which did have some manufacturing issues) so you'll need to be sure an know which version you have.
Hi Shane, You were discussing the POEs, would you know off hand what (whose) fhbs the Wahoo core machines use? Im inclined to say its a part they buy in and dont manufacture themselves; although i could be wrong. Thanks man, mark
Interesting. I came here because, for the first time ever on a road bike, i noticed an engagement lag on my new road bike/wheels. Turns out my new Roval Rapide CLII come with a 36t 35o hub! Which, according to Specialized and TH-cam wisdom, is optimal. So, what to do now?
Forget about it and go ride. 😁👌🏼
@gplama always sounds advice 😊 weird though how I've never noticed it before on 40 years of riding road bikes. maybe it's something else confounding the issue?
As a few have already said 36T is the sweet spot for road. 54T is very very loud in group rides, not so much with heavy and thick walled 350 hubs but on 180’s they scream. Also there is the drag factor, 54T does have some drag penalty when coasting downhills at speed. I’ve not had a problem with 36T in that the engagement isn’t a noticeable issue and the hub coasts load enough to not need a bell but not so loud that at 45km/h descents you can’t hear yourself think!
Mavic has a system called ID360. It means 360 engagement points. No upgrades are needed for those hubs.
I’ve been riding DT Swiss 54t ratchet for 10 years now and they feel soft compared to I9 Hydra hubs on my mountain bike.
I had a set of Roval CLX32 and was really disappointed they came with 18T engagement, the dead air was awful and made track standing difficult at traffic lights. I swapped to the 54T, but the smaller teeth sone wore down and the engagement started to slip, so swapped to the 36T, which was better.
I don’t know man, this seems like much to do about nothing. The amount of real impact this is likely to have on each of our riding experience is pretty limited. I think you’re fooling yourself if you think this will have a material impact. Almost like a solution looking for a problem.
Well across this from a MTB perspective (love my industry 9 hubs!), but very interesting point getting into the trainer hubs side of this topic particularly for racing. Small marginal gain to be had, but as you say, it’s not nothing!
For gravel I have switched to a wheel set with a high engagement. While riding on rough roads with a high cadence I often get bumped out a smooth stroke. This results in that dreaded clunk as you disengage and reengage the drive. I get far less of this with a high engagement hub. As far as drag from the hub - it’s not a concern for me. If I am not pedalling, I’m normally on the brakes.
Great video, very useful information! Question sir, when we hear the “swarm of bees 😮” is that indicating a small POE size?
Nice on Shane. It's worth noting that the free or non engaged rotation of the crank depends on when the rider decides to stop coasting.....NOT taking anything away from all your 100% valid points. Certainly when the MAXIMUM engagement angle is larger you have a wider range of "free" pedal potential.
nice video
I think, ideally, indoor trainers should stick to or switch to roller sprag clutches for their hubs. Virtually instant engagement and virtually silent.
I have the 54 tooth on my mtb and could never go back. I think its less necessary for road and adds drag to the system when coasting. I suspect the durability of the 54 tooth ratchet is diminished - I have heard of them breaking.
Interesting topic. Not really new to me, but good, you bring it up! Last year I purchased some used wheels (with a new retail price which is almost three times my bike's value) and I didn't really notice the weight difference or the speed gain with those aero wheels that much, but the DT Swiss hubs are so perfectly fine, I notice it every time I start pedalling.
I think that the angles you are showing in the screen are only 20°/6,6° if the bike has a 1:1 ratio. 6:49
If you would show them at the rear hub it would be correct.
Engagement angle is just the ratchet itself. The maximum backlash would be the same angle as the engagement angle if the gear ratio is 1:1. (as I understand it). The angles I show when moving the crank on the bike are done in the same gear, so that's just a comparison of before/after.
@@gplama so the angles shown aren’t 20/6,6. you just visualized the movements of the crank. For my opinion that’s correct. 👍🏻
Great Lama!!
Or ride fixed. 😉
What happens inside a KICKR bike with their electromagnetic resistance? Do they have a freewheel/pawl engagement with their belt drive or is it instant engagement?