Should Women Work, Gender Roles, Power Dynamics in a Marriage and Islam | Money in Marriage EP2
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 เม.ย. 2023
- Between red pill and feminism, Muslims are getting sucked into these idealogical discussions all the time. This is why in our second four-way chat, we decided to discuss the crucial topic on everyone's mind - should women work?
Don't be afraid to tell us what you think in the comments below.
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TIMESTAMPS
00:10 - Intros
00:33 - Should women work?
05:31 - The difference between work and having a hobby
07:58 - Did Khadija RA actually work?
08:28 - Is a working woman on the same level as her husband?
10:00 - Working woman vs Housewife
15:00 - Standards of living affecting household roles
18:50 - Work and household responsibilities
23:06 - The role of a practising Muslim woman in modern society
27:45 - Ibrahim's take on women working
31:33 - Balancing work and family
33:36 - Final verdicts: Should women work?
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I think Jennifer's responses, overall, show the most clarity of understanding the dynamics of working women and how it may or may not affect a marriage.
Totally agree.
A point that has been missed is that if a woman has a gift or experience in trade or a craft that can benefit society then she should be using that gift that Allah gave her to help others. For example Aisha ra taught many Muslims about Islam and hadith and many scholars used to come to her to be taught. Many woman at the time of the prophet had certain skills in strategy, warfare, trade and finance and they were encouraged to make use of those skills to benefit islam. Income and work should be separated. A woman should not have to provide for her family but she needs to be an active member of society and keep herself educated and learn and teach. Otherwise we will end up (or have ended up rather) with a backwards islamic society.
And it's only fair that she gets paid for it.
Sister Jenifer is wrong about tax. If you earn 60k per year only the amount over the higher tax threshold is taxed at 40%. Everything below that is taxed at the normal rate so that's not a valid point in the slightest. 60k per year is a very very respectable household income. Some two parent households don't even make that
Amazing topic, thank you for covering it! i was just having this conversation with my wife as she is thinking about going back to work since i children have grown older. I am amazed how well British Muslim are able to debate counter positions!
When do we account for the ‘want’. Why can’t women work because they want to, for whatever reason as long as it doesn’t effect them being a mother or wife. For example, I know women that want to work just so there’s a mental, physical, social break. Something different, need a breather. Ultimately it helps them so in turn it essentially becomes a need.
I think one aspect I disagree with is with the notion of ever rising standards. If Muslims are to be people of principle how on earth can we just blindly accept societies imposed new standards. I Alhamdulillah work in great tech job and only recently went on holiday but I can't imagine telling myself this is a necessity. Such redefining of necessity leads to rabbit whole of problems Muslims will face socially.
The standards will forever keep increasing and the question is are we going to renegotiate terms to mean things that rationally no longer make sense. For example a does a holiday or a new TV or designer clothes become necessities? Where's the ethics centred life of a muslim as a Khalifa on earth if he's just going to follow head long into decadence and rabid consumerism.
I appreciate all your efforts may Allah reward you but one thing you didn't discuss is that logically if Allah as the all wise and all knowing, provided for us best roles suited within marriage. Then if society forces us to comprise on them (even if we consciously accept those comprimises). Then we should remember Allah told us his way because there is greater benefit and wisdom in it.
Therefore logically the reverse is also true which wasn't really touched upon, when you leave the book of Allah and the sunnah then the benefit and wisdom that Allah provided is also no longer there. Increases participation in the workforce has deteriorated marriage successes in the west and interestingly women who earn higher than men (even in egalitarian countries in Scandinavia), there's a high probability marriage will end in divorce and living single.
Last point is the sister mentioned mashaAllah regarding being at home and with a community which no longer exists in the west. What she described is the slow dissolution/degradation of community in Western society as everyone entered the capitalist 9-5 machine to be productive cogs. That's why now people live in isolated bubbles either alone or as couples and there isn't a strong sense of community as there is in many poorer parts of the world. Capitalism replaces community, tradition and sense of belonging, with the need to buy more and more to fill the emptiness left behind.
I don't understand how we as Muslims don't consider the damage to both the social & moral fabric of society caused by rabid consumerism but also the destruction of the environment and human life at a scale never seen before and inequality at a level never seen before. I know I've gone beyond just marriage bit realistically it all ties in to the point that there are consequence when we skirt around the issue of living righteously and responsibly as muslims
Correct.
What is best for the children needs to be at the centre of the discussion, rather than what suits the parents or their personal aspirations.
I appreciate their efforts but I agree it is very london centric. Also non of us are perfect and we can't judge anyone since we're no better. But I do believe certain issues were skirted around without a satisfactory justification, if your location will comprimise your ability to live according to the divine word of Allah (men and women fulfilling there roles), then I can't see a justification for why you wouldn't move out to a cheaper city especially as there are many with good muslim communities aswell. I can't see us saying to Allah the reason our marriage broke down was because we both had to work to buy a really expensive house because we really didnt want to leave the comfort living in London. Does that really stand? Ofcourse this for those who can afford to live and save for a house in London.
The other issue is regarding the necessity of owning a home, is it? Like it seems we are redefining terms so we can comfortably justify living in the same manner as the rest of society. Allah knows best
Beautiful answer from sister Jennifer at the start.
Further along. 5:40 onwards. Sister Jennifer again with gems.
I genuinely believe that most women, if not all, are more than happy to stay at home, look after their children, and fulfil basic duties. The problem is that most women will do that, but most men will not be able to support their lifestyle and comfortably provide enough for the women to stay at home yet still enjoy the luxuries of life without earning a living. That's why I think it's crucial that men marry a woman who has had fewer life experiences and luxuries in comparison to them. It helps in a woman's perspective towards contentment and happiness. Not to say that those who marry a woman who has seen the world aren't happy, but it's like Marylin said 'Don't you know that a man being rich is like a women being pretty, you wouldn't marry a women just because she is pretty but my goodness doesn't it help' 😂
This is a good point. Expectations can be high, and earning potential low
Nothing would suffice discontent women, especially if they seek luxury in life.
@Abdul Basith Depends on what luxury means to you, it's very generic and personal
I disagree because once a man takes a woman into his circle, she will want what the women around her have. Its more reasonable to marry someone from a similar background who will expect a similar lifestyle as the man and understand the problems experienced by their class in society.
The real problem we have is people are divorced from reality. Men should not force their wives to not work if they can't supplement the lifestyle they already have and are projected to want. And women shouldn't be so materialistic because it's a never ending pit of misery. Objects and spending money does not lead to happiness, a quality lifestyle does. And that's what both spouses should be striving for.
@Z M What you are talking about is an ideal scenario in an ideal world, and I see your point of view, but unfortunately, it's not that simple to marry someone who is from the similar circle and most importantly similar mindset - that being said I have seen people marry like minded people and yet still have problems because of what they perceive and different goals they have in life in terms of standard of living etc. So I think it's fair to say that expectations should be discussed before marriage from both sides, and we all should strive towards being good spouses and individuals.
things have changed so much in just 100 years. washing machines/ microwaves/ ready made bread and lots of things which have lifted much of the woman's job in the home. so it can never be the same again. women sitting at home doing nothing when the children are married off is a recipe for boredom, i agree with the panel. however this shouldn't necessarily lead to "let me go get a career so I'm not bored in the future". we should try to strive to keep traditional roles with some breathing room for the changing times
This conversation is also very London centric, especially the point about not being able to survive on one income.
Great conversation. Shukran
The other point which is very important is the woman being able to fulfil her husband's needs, which for a woman takes alot of mental and physical energy and headspace, and is very difficult to fulfil properly with full time work and other responsibilities. This is important to discuss, as it comes even before fulfilling the kids needs.
May Allah protect our innocent Muslim Siste😔, in Pakistan, Afghanistan, iran
and other Muslim countries too
Excellent and honest discussion. Thank you!
This is an important discussion. If you are going to discuss this from the lens of the Deen, then please bring in female/male scholars to discuss this, rather than lay people.
Jennifer has spelled out very smartly and apt points
Excellent topic. Why don't I see more appreciations for Nusyabah? I feel her points of view were very balanced and practical versus Jennifer who slightly tilted to the old school (red pill) way of thinking.
It was also refreshing to see Khizar being so supportive of his wife regardless of whether she chooses to pursue her dreams or playing her traditional roles. There is nothing more beautiful than a man who supports his wife into becoming the best version of herself and supporting her with her dreams. May Allah bless you both!
"There is nothing more beautiful than a man who supports his wife into becoming the best version of herself and supporting her with her dreams"
There are plenty of things far more beautiful than that, like a man doing what is best for his akhirah regardless of whether it satisfies his wifes girlboss fantasies or not.
Masha Allah, healthy discussion
The vast majority of women don't have the luxury to have a flexible and part time role like the sister in the video (and nor that well paid).
I agree ideally no but I find living in London, it's hard to survive on one income which is unfortunate.
Is it not a question of women working to contribute to society rather than having to earning a living? Her income would be to provide her wants not needs.
The problem starts when women leave her home for her desires. Islam only allowed women to go out for her needs. This is explicitly mentioned in Ahadith.
@@abdulbasithsg please provide references
Women should work if the husband unable to provide enough financially and in modern world - unable to provide attention to his wife. Housewives mostly are lonely.
Free mixing....what is this? I also think Muslim women should focus on raising their children. I know there are exceptions and situations where women have to work, but this whole idea of women being independent and going to work comes from feminism.
I strongly disagree, most women I know don't want to work and the ideal world never has been and will never be.
And you should invite a woman that not work to the show.
It's not her choice it's her husband choice.
It's not her choice it's her right to not to work and get paid.
If you can't provide for a woman you don't deserve it.
I'm standing with my sister you just greedy and you have no right to touch your wife money and that's include trying not paying for your wife needs or make her pay for your kids
Sister if you don't have anything else to do when kids grow up, get a hobby or just get busy or just enjoy your free time no need get stressed with a job, that is a silly justification.
If we get our priorities right according to what Islam demands then things become aligned
Here for all men out there be high paid individuals or be entrepreneurial you don't need to put your woman out there, work hard.
And be aware of feminism in Muslim lives creeping in.
Feminism is bad only for women otherwise men are being enjoyed since women are out.
Pretty sure a job will make you feel empty...
No they shouldn't
They should depend on their husband.
When did working become a woman's choice? 😂 sorry but that's up to her husband if she's married. At the end of the day if she wants to work and her husband says honey I'd rather you spend your time on our family or seeking knowledge, then that's his choice. How did that sister's husband just sit there and accept that?
Because he respects her as an individual, beyond the entitlement of just how she can be of service to others.
These things are best discussed prior to being married. Brothers who feel they want a housewife and for a woman to not have any desire for ambition beyond that, should intentionally marry a sister who compliments those values. Forcing someone against their nature and will can lead to long term resentment in a marriage.
Yes it is the husbands choice whether she works. The only exception is if she put it down as a condition on her Nikkah that she will work. I don't know why they keep saying it's the woman's choice.
I subscribed to this channel to help improve my financial literacy, not for useless conversations that shouldn't be held online. If I wanted debates I would have gone to those channels - you've just lost a subscriber
Cool down brother and have patience, this discussion is part of the financial ecosystem when you look at the bigger picture. It will connect the dots in future and give you better clarity on your overall financial literacy.