This video will save you a lot of money. Dust extractors for beginners.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2022
- Is the Festool CT Midi Dust Extractor any better than a standard shop vac? Let's find out.
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Really interesting video man! Nice to see the honest feedback on festool and some side by side comparisons.
*picks himself up off the floor*
*cough*
Thank you Cam! Can't believe you watched. Or even commented.
Thanks for not trolling me. I'd have to screen shot you at the end of my next video. That would be embarrassing.
@@wittworks worlds funniest reply
@@CraigularjJoeWoodworks Ha! I forgot I did that.
What's really interesting is the vacuum cleaner can use 6.5hp when the wall outlet can only supply 3hp.
Free energy technology!
@@wittworks I think You are often too self-deprecating good man. You may fuck up (in big ways at times) yet you also succeed in amazing outcomes, have the courage to share those challenges (that most will not) and how you get around them becomes a teaching moment within your presentation style.
Having a smaller following doesn't have to be like having a smaller dick... you can still walk through the men's changeroom with pride knowing your product will be recognised as big potential, and in time will grow. No surgery required.
The more loaded a filter is, the better if filters. The tradeoff is the lack of airflow that comes with it being loaded. The particulate that is caught acts as additional filter material, and so long as you can maintain airflow, it should filter more effectively than if it was brand new. You can think of a metal grate with 1" holes and dumping gravel over it. The larger rocks will create smaller gaps that will sometimes catch rocks below the 1" hole size. With filtration you are dealing with viscosity, static bonding, and a few other things as well but it works as a basic metaphor.
Yep. That is my suspicion. Got a new filter to test against.
I was thinking the same thing.
Guess we got a solid idea for a follow up video!
Well put sir 👏
Well said! 👍
It's been 45 years since college, but I have a background in science and lab results. Your comparisons are quite valid, even if your meter is not deadly accurate. True, you may not be able to trust the quantitative numbers the meter is showing. As long as they are consistent, however, you can make a valid, qualitative comparison that "A cleans the air better/worse than "B". You have convinced me!
Thank you
I agree. Valid analysis. Precise? Not really. Valid? Absolutely.
I work in the field as a finish carpenter most of the time, and I personally enjoy the feeling of pulling up to a clients jobsite breaking out my Festool setup and seeing the look of confidence and excitement in their eyes. Furthermore, the clean-up process of owning Festool is beyond worth it. I can cut a 20' stick of material, get it on the wall, and have my setup broke down in 10 minutes...enough said. BTW I'm 53 yrs old and work alone.
Well said! That's the reason they exist. Whats funny is some people have commented saying "if someone shows up with festool I know I hired a fool". I think the opposite. That look of confidence you speak of is EVERYTHING, and proof that you found a wise client. Best of luck on your work! Massive respect. 💥
Are all your customers woodworkers? Most people have no idea that Festool even exists.
I am an install manager for a cabinet dealer, we hire subcontractors for cabinet installs and one of the first things that will catch my attention is the tools people are using, if you roll up with a few crappy ryobi tools and harbor freight levels in the back of a pickup truck (this has happened ....) I am not going to feel very confident that you will be paying any real attention to detail or that you actually know what you are doing, a good craftsman will buy good tools and they do it for a reason, they are more accurate , the cost of them should not be too much of a problem if you make a living doing that kind of work.
they may not know what the brand is but the look of it shows that a person is organized and has invested in their tools. trust me I manage cabinet installs for a large cabinet dealer and the guys we have that are set up with festool or Milwaukee where everything is very organized and matching without a doubt breed much more confidence with clients. and from my perspective it is an indicator that that person is actually paying attention to detail and dedicated to their craft because they invested money in it, it also lets you know they MAKE money ....compared to some cowboy hack that rolls up with some busted up tools and leaves a huge mess behind .@@Ekrindul
Janne Virtannen was the world strongest man he was also a Finnish carpenter. Had big hands 👐
One very likely reason the old shopvac had a lower output of very small particles is that the filter is clogged, which actually increases it's ability to filter things out, but at the cost of air throughput (and thus worse suction).
If you want to further test that you could simply repeat the test for yourself with the festool turned down to the lowest speed, and compare it to itself on highest speed.
But if it has enough suction to keep up with the waste from the tools, then it's still a better value even with lower suction...as it's not releasing a higher amount of fine particles than the more expensive options.
@@alphaforce6998but what about the fine particles near the tool where the person is breathing? The scan is getting live data at one point. We’d need to have probably 2 at least to see the full scope of the air quality with these filters/vacs
wouldn't a better test be to put his airflow meter on the exhaust? that would show if the old vacuum is outputting the same amount of air as the new Festool or the new vacuum?
@@alphaforce6998 Seems a thoroughly clogged shop vac filter makes a pretty good HEPA filter! DANG! 😄I just changed out my filter recently!
Agreed! Would love to see another test where air flow rate was held constant among the participants bc it stands to reason that high airflow means more particles are being processed through the system.
The results you got in your test make perfect sense. In a lab setting where you could completely isolate the air coming out of the filter, you'd see much lower 0.3 micro scores from the HEPA filters. But in a garage setting the sensor is picking up all the air in the garage, not just the air coming from the shop vac. I bet you could place the sensor anywhere in the room and you'd get similar results. One thing you missed in your test was a control where you cut/sand some wood without any shop vac running and see how sensor results compare.
It'd also be beneficial the test with the sensor as close to your face as possible. It really doesn't matter if the air coming out of the shop vac is cleaner, it matters if the air going into your lungs is cleaner.
Great thoughts.
That would be a fair point, except across tests each vacuum was still showing relative consistency. If you test 3 vacuums 3 times and your results have a consistent relationship that suggests even if the room is having an impact (which it certainly is) there is still a correlation showing.
@@geraldaugustus739 There's definitely a correlation on dust particle output. But the question is how important it is when compared to other parameters (like suction).
Are you better off with a vac that has great filtering, but with a lower suction (so more can escape at the tool), or are you better when a vac that has great suction but little filtering? It may depend a lot on the placement of your vacuum too. You're usually pretty close to the tool, but the vacuum can be further away, quite often with the exhaust turned away from you.
I always have this thought. Run a long hose and have the show vac on the outside of the workshop/garage or a separate compartment that dumps the air to outside.
Well who the hell cares what the isolated air results are, the air I'm breathing is obviously the open garage air
I made the mistake of doing home DIY for years without a Festool dust extractor. Best tool I’ve bought by far.
Agreed - I finally bought a Festool MIDI, along with ETS sander. Unbelievable how effective that is at capturing sanding dust - no more sanding dust in the air, or film of sawdust collecting on everything after even a short sanding session. Committing to spending that much was tough, but after using it - no buyers regret from me. Wish I could have afforded this years ago.
"I just wish it was longer and not so expensive."
Amen, brother
Good video, one note - the anti-static hose isn't about shocks, it is about dust not sticking electrostatically to the hose. Lots of static electricity is generated when moving air over an insulator, good industrial antistatic dust collection systems have conductive piping that is grounded through a 6-8 MOhm resistance to allow the static to dissapate.
If I am using a plastic hose, can I use a section of metal hose with the ground attached?
Or just use a secondary hose and venturi manifold to mitigate static transference...
Precipitation static (P-Static) is in the hose and the dust particles. Dissipating it if the hose is not conductive would be best done how? A metal section that's grounded partway in the run or before the cyclone? Static in the cyclone can be effective too as a means of reducing dust velocity.
I wonder where that leaves the options for a tool -> cyclone -> vac setup with soft hosing?
@@jeffmastinyou can use some scrap wire on the hose, just ground it somehow… problem solved with scrap
Well it's that but also any static spark can ignite dust particles and make your workshop explode... So... it's a LITTLE about the static sparking/shocks...
Love the honest, non bias evaluation of the Festool dust extractor. Thank you!
As a beginner that will be building my own workspace in my shed over the next year or so, this was really informative.
Thanks for including and mentioning items like the auto on switch with 5 seconds turn off and the extractor/sound muffler etc. didn’t know these existed and I would really consider getting them. This really helps in understanding what I should be getting and budgeting for.
I have both the rigid and the festool. The Rigid might be the loudest thing in the shop. I run both through a dust deputy. Really helps keep the filters clean
THANK YOU! This is saving me a lot of money. I just have a small shop. I don't need a lot of dust extraction. This video has convinced me I am on the right path building a small dust collection system.
the festool 3 year all included guarantee is a game changer aswell, especially for professionals. Your vacuum could fall off the stairs and all damages will be repaired free of charge, even if it is your own fault.
One of the best, in depth videos I’ve watched in a long time. Great job 👏
Thank you bro! 🤜💥🤛
Man this is really thorough. Great video brother. You have a synchronicity of timing is pretty crazy sometimes. Thanks for going into such depth. You’re right though we only have one set of lungs. That Internet itself should be worth even spending 50 bucks on something. Nice work brother
Thanks bro! Congrats on your success.
I really like your delivery and honesty! Good job and keep going!
Excellent video! I am a 84 year old beginner so contracting an illness that I don't currently have is probably not going to shorten the time on my clock... That said, your points are very well taken... I am installing a Powertec dust control system and looking at the Ridgid as a vacuum source married with a Dustopper Pro. This system worked well in another shop and since I live in Mexico, I have the opportunity to turn expensive lumber into more expensive sawdust...Luckily I can recycle my sawdust into another hobby... Love your videos, keep them coming...
I was surprised at how much louder my shop vac was after adding the orange dust separator. I debated building my own separator, but after accounting for all the parts and time, it was a no-brainer to just buy something. Definitely not nirvana, but at least my ear muffs have FM radio!
The old rigid clogged filter, I imagine it being clogged increased its small particle capture rate. Thanks for the very interesting NTD thoughtful review. Nice work. I have the Festool for peace of mind.
Great video. Another data point would be to quantify how much dust is collected in the first place (not easy). Lower cfms would likely result in more dust overall, but depending on the setup (e.g. cyclonic vs filter) higher throughput could also mean more dust suspension.
I really appreciate this video. I have almost the exact same setup as your old setup, with the dust deputy, and I'm just in a 2 car garage with the door open and fans blowing. I feel more like I'm not going to die now. :)
I love your testing and I love your honesty. You increase your credibility by admitting that your results might not be perfect.
Thank you!
You know… I sure do appreciate your humility in your approach to this video… I’m not a Festool guy; actually a Milwaukee guy… but you’re not wrong! Presentation is just as much as important as your work performed… even if customers don’t know/appreciate the difference. My additional expense in tools far surpasses my cost in time spent on the job; at the end of the day, it comes down to professionalism and profits. Thank you fro your content and I appreciate it!!!
I think a lot of Milwaukee ! I think it looks good to show up with decent tools , organized and clean
Man dust extraction is a blessing! I personally use both the ridged strictly for my table saw and a festool with my miter saw. Every tool has its purpose every person has their need
i appreciate how you do these videos you don’t fake you tell it how it is which is so rare these days, i will continue to sub and watch because your unique take on stupid shit i get obsessed with too lol thanks man you saved me so much money
Can’t thank you enough for your honesty. I’ve been researching and trying to figure out which vac to purchase for about 3 mos now. Every time I make up my mind I learn something new. You helped clear my mind a bit and keep me focused on what really matters and I can’t thank you enough. Thank you!
Thank you Brandon! What did you go with? I point all the trolls to this comment when they say the video is trash 😉
The dirty filter is a game changer. The larger holes have already been plugged and particles have to be pretty small to get through. Put a new filter in the old vacuum and your particulate rating will go up significantly. Drill a hole in your wall and put the vacuum outside. Take off the filter and let the vacuum blow. You will get more suction and your inside particles go down.
Excellent video. Feels like professional quality. I've watched A LOT of these in search of the perfect shop vac. A lot of them are really terrible. Yours is perfectly edited. Thank you for making a video that was informative, consise, and funny. You have a new subscriber!
I have both the rigid and festool. Love my festool with blutooth for woodworking particles. Love rigid for larger rough stuff
Thank You for your consideration in making this video. Very nicely researched, narrated, explained. I trust your measurements, most of us are hobbyist in nature and don’t spend 40 hours a week in the workshop so it’s not perfect but it’s good enough. Greetings from Maine
Thank you Allen!
Keep in mind that his test is for his machines in his work environment. YMMV with your air filtration system. Still, anecdotal evidence is still evidence (it’s just less statistically significant). The thing with the expensive Festool is that I think it’s high probability that 1) Festool did extensive rigorous testing to meet 2) high EU safety standards.
Let’s face it, at some point we have to trust other people’s expertise. We do it all the time when we use a microwave, get into a car, even use electricity. We can’t safety test everything. So we rely on the expertise of others to test the safety of a lot of stuff.
I just don’t have the money to get a Festool air filtration system*. Even if I could put it on my credit card, the interest rates are killing me. So my low cost solution is to continue to use my shop vac AND wear a KN95 or N95 mask. And keep my shop space well ventilated.
* The cheapest (CT 15) I can find on Mexican Amazon cost 16,529 pesos or $835 in U.S. dollars.
Hey man, nice video!
I noticed something you didn't discuss, and that's that 50% more air velocity you got from the festool. If the air hoses have the same inside diameter, 50% more velocity means 50% more cfm. 50% more cfm means 50% more of the HEPA-filtered clean air you need to breath safely. Imagine your workshop with 8000 cubic feet of air inside of it. You measured the air quality near the exhaust of the vacuum, which is arguably the cleanest air you have in the whole workshop. The festool sucks 50% more of the dusty air near your tools, and that's important, too. So, you have a solid advantage for the extra money you paid. Don't feel you wasted money and gained nothing except a logo and a smaller more convenient system. The air you gained might not be much cleaner, but you have 50% more of it.
Internal dia is not the only component. Resistance and turbulence will influence the outcome too?
@@michaelrobinson9643 What I'm saying is that air discharge = "area section of the air jet" times "average air velocity". Resistance reduces the velocity. Turbulence changes the velocity distribution in the jet, but in the video he is measuring some sort of an average velocity and omits the distribution. My analysis is not perfect, but it shows the bigger picture correctly (at least as much as I understand what is going on). If we know the air velocity, inside diameter gives us air flow, and here we have a measure of velocity if not the velocity itself.
@@mehdimarashi1736 all good. I'm trying to get around in my head how much the ribbed hoses may influence vs using smooth hoses (aside from them hoarding dust in the ribs). It's been years since I did this stuff from first principles so I'm enquiring not criticising :)
@@michaelrobinson9643 No problems at all. It has a huge effect. The ribs get filled with dust and chips and whatnot, and give a very rough surface compared to a smooth hose. Do you remember the f factor in Darcy-Weisbach equation? It increases with the roughness. Extra roughness + reduced pipe section = huge losses. I'm guessing it has even bigger effect than that, but that's above my pay grade.
If I made a collage of the receipts for all the tools that didn't work as well as advertised or expected, I could send myself and my kids back to college.
Now to start I'm a hand tool wood worker ever since I started carpentry 15yrs ago and I just fell in Love with working with wood more than any other aspect of the trade, but more by hand and what people would call rudimentary, archaic and slow going I called simple straight to the point but closer to our ancestors and I'm just turning 50, but I digress. I enjoy your content. I enjoy it not only because you are humorous in your own way that I and probably many others get, also that you are informative in what you present to us your viewers and that is what I enjoy and that is what will keep me coming back to your (Witt) content. But with that being said, I am not taking away or insulting what machine woodworkers do at allthis is why I enjoy hand tool wood working. I just want think about how the wood and I can work together, not how the wood can harm me now or affect me later. But like I said I enjoy your content I will keep watching and I am a subscriber. please keep up the great
College. Thanks for the review - fun to watch. I'm glad you mentioned the cost to build vs buy.
This is great. I actually use the rigid 6.5 horsepower with duststopper and hepa bag/filter for my job site dust collection. I use a very basic and cheap remote control plug and remote that stays on my work belt so I always have vacuum control.
Lovely video - and healthy level of self-scepticism made me want to listen a lot more.
Super video, thanks for all the details. So far (just above beginner level), have been connecting a Karcher WD6 to sanders, jigsaw and mitre saw, with the best extraction on the sander by far (virtually none gets away).
I think the next step might be a cyclone set-up, but it's encouraging that with a good shop vac + mask, we're probably safe enough. Although the shop would still need a good vacuuming every so often to keep down dust in the air.
As a carpenter, you’re right about people judging your work based upon your stuff. When we do big commercial jobs, it’s all high vis. When we do houses, we wear embroidered button up shirts and can’t have dirty stained/ripped pants on. It gives the impression of more professionalism and that usually does mean better quality of work.
Shirts? F that. I do my hoses shirtless, shorts, suspenders with my toolbelt. SO much faster and less HOT
This. I've been a pro photographer for 12 years now.. learned early on that clients can judge your work based on your gear and how you look. One time I was helping a friend (who had a decade on me in the biz, and made like 4x what I was making) on a shoot.. Well he had gear in Ikea bags.. and parts for lights from different brands so they were taped on..and he even wanted to use a plastic shopping bag as a light modifier.. Cables were a mess in Ikea bag.. and dressed super casual..
I basically scolded him at the end. of the day and forced him to drop some cash on some nice cases and upgrade some gear.. he's cheap, so he hated spending the money, but he quickly realized how much of a difference it made to clients!!
@@AaronAubreyPhoto did you say he was making 4x what you were making and he's taking advice from you?
@@dandanilowicz3587 Yeah, I thought that was odd. The guy with more experience and income is not the one giving advice... so did he make even more money after cleaning up his appearance? What was the point to all those details? He seemed to do well without that approach and being "cheap"
I’m a career residential carpenter… most of my work is on trim/ finish and custom stuff on 1-60 million dollar homes (yes 60 million)… what I’m getting at is even in this environment we are all dirt balls lol, and I’m about the worst. Sure the company owner and a few foreman (which I’m also a foreman) are more clean cut… but we’re just to busy to worry about being really clean.
At 7:10AM I’m already a dirtball so why bother lol.
Very nice set of pros and cons. Many years ago I was on this journey of health and cleanliness. I realized I was sensitive to oak dust off gassing from a friends shop heater. He didn't believe me but when his grandson had same reaction???? I also opted for the Grizzly air filter. Jet makes them and you can make your own. Yeah wood costs are nuts. We can exercise control in our own environments. Became a subscriber.
Thank you for sharing. Good stuff. Welcome aboard!
Great video. My wife is a potter, I'm an amateur woodworker, and her kilns and my shop share the same garage space. So air quality is a big issue for us... not a big enough issue that we've done anything more than blame each other for the dust in the garage, of course, but your video has given us a lot to think about. Thanks man.
I think you hit the nail on the head. If you're a professional, installing cabs or something similar in someone's house, the festool is a no Brainer. If you're a home garage woodworker, your literally throwing your money away
Love this video! I had it on my list to do but you killed it and now saved me $1500! FYI to compare CFM just multiply your speed (ft/min) x your cross sectional area of the hose (ft2).
Thanks Blake! Send your kids to college.
Definitely impacted my decision on how much I will spend on dust collection. Thanks
Thank you so much for this video I love it! I have an old rigid shop vac and was planning on buying a much more expensive one. I do a lot of woodworking mostly refinishing old furniture. I have a little dog who likes to hang out with me but she’s 13 years old and I worry about her health as well as my own. I just purchased a Surfprep sander and was concerned about hooking it up to my rigid shop vac. Now I know I’m safe and can even sand inside, if need be. I’m a single mom and I have a daughter in college you just saved me some money! Thank you thank you thank you!
You're welcome!
Another great video Witt. You’re thorough, relatable, entertaining, and dole out great advice. I have one of the rolling carts with the Ridgid vac and Dustopper and couldn’t see a reason to go with the Festool, but I can see now why some people would and how it could be nice to own one. More people need to watch the content you’re putting out. You’re A+ material all day long.
Thank you Ethan! I got a comment recently that said “you’re full of s***” // I like your take better! 😬
@@wittworks Tell them to go hang out in their Festool users group chat rooms and stop bothering you.
@@wittworks You’re seriously doing an awesome job. It’s only a matter of time before your channel completely blows up.
@@ethanshannon1840 ha!
@@ethanshannon1840 thank you! We shall see. Just keeping my head down trying to make the best and most honest content to help people who have questions. It will all take care of itself. I think. Hopefully. 🤞
Huge tip on the diffuser! Definitely need to get one of these, can’t believe I’ve never heard of this before. Great video
Thank you nick. I’ve had it for years and it makes it much quieter
Thanks for taking the time, its a compelling experiment!
Great video, man! Very informative. Also like your sense of humor. Thank you for breaking it all down so effectively. Great job!
I have been using a rigid vac with the filter/ bag combo for 10 years and it is easily one of my best purchases ever. I also have asthma and consider the bag/ filer mandatory in a shop vac which I learned the hard way (read blew drywall dust all over my house). I find the Festool prices completely unrealistic for myself a hobbyist who enjoys living under a roof. Another great video. I need to start a channel so I can justify all of these cool tool purchases to myself and my spouse👍
I used my Rigid vac prior to thinking about bags while working on my house and that was a mistake. I quickly purchased new filters and bags. Boy what a difference! I want to pick up one of those diffusers to quiet the monster :)
More than a comprehensive review here. You, sir, are a rockstar for doing all this.
Aw, shucks. Thank you Acer. Can I forward all the troll comments to you? 🫣
@@wittworks lol, I get my share elsewhere.
As a painter in europe festool is the way to go. Its also overhere very expensive but.. they last a really long time. I still work with a 25 year old one and it does the job.
What a great comparison! I own that exact same old rigid vac. I am planning to remove popcorn ceiling in a few weeks. Thank you for this
Loved the video. I do agree that clogged filters do change filtration levels. Probably contributes to the lower flow for the old vac as well.
I have an old craftsman shop vac and ported the exhaust outside kinda like people do with their dust collectors. I don’t use any filter at all since the dirty air goes straight outside. I run my shop vac into a dustopper for separation. Then for mobility, I set up a boom arm to get my shop vac to easily reach anywhere in my small shop.
You should check and see if the dustopper has a good seal and see if that affects the airflow drop off. I use some foam on the edge where it connects to the bucket and that seems to help maintain a seal.
Thank you
I also bought a CTL Midi 4 weeks ago to vacuum both my apartment and machines (mainly wood dust) when I work on the balcony. This also eliminates the need for a regular vacuum cleaner (which I needed anyway). The little one has a small corner at the bottom of the pantry behind the door and is super handy. I regretted nothing - at most me not to have bought earlier. The remote control will also be added by Christmas at the latest.
Working on your balcony might be the biggest help because of the ventilation it provides. The biggest issue is that these tiny dust particles remain suspended in the air in an enclosed shop. The more ventilation, the less of a problem it is.
I think my shop is pretty well ventilated (it’s drafty as hell and on a windy day there’s actually a slight breeze). But I also have a large rooftop patio where I could be working. I think I’m going to put a bench up there for working on good weather days. (I like to go up there when I’m manually sanding to enjoy the sun, anyway.) I would keep my tools and work stored in my shop when I wasn’t working up there.
Great video! I have a big rigid can shop vac and a festool vac with sander and they both have their purpose. Random garage work and backyard projects are great for the cheapie vac. Going into a clients house and sanding a banister… festool all day. Quieter, cleaner and healthier for me and the client.
Love your humor. And your analysis. Thanks!
Congrats on another well presented and scripted video!. A sixth bonus feature of my CT Midi is that hose clogging and loss of suction can be quickly fixed by connecting the hose to the Midi air outlet port and blowing the offending crud back out of the other end of the hose. I made a 55 gallon food barrel into a potable cyclone chip collector using a Veritas cyclone lid. The Midi can then be used with 2.5 inch hose on my band saw and planer. Another reason your old vacuum can catch fine particles is that your filter is so caked with dust of all sizes that it catches the fine dust that it was not designed to catch.
Great tip! And I suspected the caked filter had something to do with it...
@@wittworks my first idea too, you should test again with a cleaned filter to see if it performs the same in terms of airflow (I bet it will be better) and let more particles through too.
Yes, I have a brand new filter and will try it.
Think of it this way; the less throughput the less particles coming out. If you had no suction you would have ambient particle count. So a slow / clogged pump will have lower particles, therefore you need to divide the throughput by the particle count.
Assuming the volume of the hoses are the same so that the meters/second velocity readings are comparable.
Old = 5.8m/s with 5070 total particles = 874 ppms
New = 10.9m/s with 6850 total particles = 628 ppms
Festool = 10.5m/s with 5380 total particles. = 512 ppms
So for every unit of air coming out of the Festool there are less particles in it. There's just a lot more units coming through therefore more total particles.
Thanks for your time and effort to show what you found. Well done.
Seriously good content quality. Great review overall as well. The edits were clean and the visuals were professional. Thank you for the quality content again!
Thank you! Appreciate it!
Great video. I often work inside pipe organs, where dust is an enemy. I bought a Fein MiniTurbo twenty years ago, and use it with the HEPA style bags. It’s quiet, and clean. I’ve always hated those ShopVac machines, primarily because they’re noisy; however, they do the job for which they’re designed. Recently, I bought both a newer Fein and a Festool CT15. So, I get a lot of what you’re saying. I believe the most important conclusion you made is the one about professional vs consumer grade tools. It’s not a judgement on whether the user is actually a “professional “. It’s how the tool performs in all ways, from little details to smart motors. After forty years in a craft/trade, I can easily say I’ll pick the professional grade tools every time, whether they’re for my garage shop, or my job sites.
That’s awesome. Thank you for sharing.
This video got you a sub. Love the honesty and although you're very upfront about not being a scientist, your experiment was conducted very logically. Keep pumping out good stuff!
Thank you! Welcome aboard. See my latest videos for both a deep laugh and a deep cry 😭
Scientist here .. (well, at least trained as one ...). I completely agree. Of course, this was no science, but it was set up and conducted quite logically and discussed thoroughly and honestly. Kudos for this video and all the effort!
College! Truth man. This was a great and very helpful video. Thanks for taking one for all of us on the team.
Something to keep in mind is a filter with a high amount of dust embedded in it is probably filtering more because the added dust is acting like a filtering medium.
I’m going to add a cyclone + 5 gallon bucket, HEPA filter and filter bag to my Ridgid vac.
I’m also going to experiment with adding a swimming pool filter bag over the HEPA filter.
I’m certain all this will reduce velocity so I’ll try to find the best balance of filtration(air quality)and air movement.
Thanks very much for all the info you have provided.
Wow awesome video! Your editing is spot-on!
It’s good to know that a tricked out shop vac can perform fairly close to a Festool, because as much as I would love to get some of those green tools, I also probably should pay my mortgage ;)
Thank you for doing such a thorough job on this video!
Thank you! I was surprised by how close (and sometimes better) it was in performance.
Footprint, noise, Bluetooth, rating, looks and resell value plus the fact that with the cyclone upgrade you don't need to change the dustbag for months, the Festool setup is one of the best shop tools i ever bought. The bluetooth switch is my favourite thing about it. No regrets if you can afford it.
I made a simple outside housing and run the vacuum outside and ran the hose up through the floor because the HEPA filter restricted airflow too much. Since the Vacuum vents outside I just use a standard bag and filter. I also use one of those Buckethead cyclones to reduce bag changes. I found that adding a foam seal to the Cyclone improves the suction loss issue (or vinyl electrical tape).
Also, having the vacuum outside helps to not add heat and noise to my tiny workshop.
Venting the exhaust air outside is key, I do the same except I run a hose from the shop vac to the outside. My shop is a 8x8x20 shipping container so removing any dust I can from blowing back into the air is critical. Due to space and meth and meth addicts I can't setup entirely outside so I have mine mounted up on the wall above my tools. The shop vac hose reaches everything since it's such a small space. Cleaning kind of sucks sometimes but it's not too bad specially since adding the cyclone.
I fixed the static shock issue by simply wrapping a thin bare copper wire around the hose which is connected to metal wall of the shipping container giving me solid grounding for the entire air system.
Amazing video! To my little knowledge, the old filters become better at filtering particles as it clogs up - however at the expense of the airflow. It dramatically reduces the airflow as it clogs up.
Great video, and very thorough! In order to eliminate some question, you could test the new rigid without HEPA filters, (with standard filters), and test the old rigid with new standard filters. Someone commented below that they weren't surprised because, "in a garage setting the sensor is picking up all the air in the garage, not just the air coming from the shop vac". That just further validates your test. What you care about IS the air "anywhere in your garage" and it will likely never be worse than where you checked. There could be some locations that are more closed in that do collect a little more, but in general, you covered the bases. The old rigid and the new rigid are perfectly safe for the average person. The only remaining question to me would be the accuracy of the measurement tool. You did some work to validate that and your results were consistent on multiple tests and so I think that answers the question. The tool could be off an order of magnitude but the result is still the same, the rigid setup works as well as the more expensive unit. I think you nailed it. I am just now setting up a workshop that I have wanted for decades and considering what type of dust collection would be appropriate. Thanks for the great work.
Thank you Ed!
A sander is really what these are designed for. Sander create finer dust than saws. Testing with sander dust might give you better results because you will be generating smaller dust. If all the test dust is the size of golf balls than an old window screen will test well. Otherwise thanks for putting in the work and giving us something to reference.
Ahh the endless struggle. I went through all these setups. I think for a small workspace My favorite setup is the ct36 with the long life bag And the d36 hose. Its expensive but it simplifies the setup greatly and doesn’t have an effect on suction. I’ve even used it on the table saw it it works pretty well if your not big on stationary tools. If your on big stationary tools nothing really beats a proper big dust collector with a pleated filter.
Love this video. Well made and clearly unbiased.
I have a CT MIDI myself as a home owner, mainly for built in Bluetooth, HEPA and easy connecting to Festool track saw. The price sure was felt, but does not regret it one second.
Thanks!
My least favorite thing about this video is the fact that I LITERALLY have never been shocked by my non anti static hose. I watched this video, got back to my shop to work and I've been shocked like 3 times in the last 29 minutes. What have you done to me...
My bad! I got shocked the other day too. I’ve ruined our lives.
Crap, I've never been shocked by mine either. Now I'm about to go out and use it... What have I done...
🤦♂️
Mate you will never understand how bad the static shock can be until you’ve thrown or smashed wands vacuuming concrete dust after grinding especially using a large dust extractor the charge can build up enough to drop someone who isn’t use to it or knows it’s coming
This man is truly electrifying.
First: your production of the video, and your earnest and honest presentation were absolutely top-notch. Next, I'd like to point out that even a $200.00 PPM meter from Amazon can at least reasonably, accurately give valid comparison tests between the three extraction systems. The actual numbers may be off, but the comparisons are still valid.
Glad to see some of my favorite YT makers are all touching base here!
Thank you! I was surprised this video got so much attention.
@@wittworks It got the attention it deserved.
Tiger Vac model AS-400 is an excellent certified Hepa Vaccuum that very quiet, that with a cyclone to separate the bulk of material saving on bags. Price around $1000 industrial quality.
I have no idea why TH-cam showed me your video, but I enjoyed this and subscribed! Thanks for the honesty down-to-earth attitude.
Man Drew, I should have gotten a bourbon before I started this video! I agree totally with what you say. Also, my CT 26 died after a year or so, and Festool rebuilt it, and returned it to me in 3 days, over a holiday weekend, at no cost ; Nada. Keep them coming buddy
You can always pour a dirty one and re watch 🤣
That’s some customer service! Ain’t getting that from HD…
Thank you!
Great video! After using regular shop vacs for years, I bought a ct midi with bt remote and it's probably one of the top 3 tool purchases I ever made. Worth every penny. The festool cyclone is only worth it for the convenience of stacking it on the midi; it does not perform as well as a dust deputy. Doing it all over, I'd skip the cheap vacs (maybe keep one around as a "beater") and go straight for a legit dust extractor. The midi has so many useful and amazing features for a serious hobbyist/pro.
Could you clarify midi?
I plan on doing work in my as more or less a hobby and am curious to how much attention should be placed in this department.
@@sourceofuniversallove1449 The CT Midi I; it's the current corded model with integrated bluetooth. You still have to buy the bluetooth remote, but it's only $46 as opposed to the $82 you'd have to spend on the receiver+remote set needed to upgrade the CT26/36/48.
Best dust extractor I've ever used. I was using my RTS 400 sander connected to the Midi in my mancave to sand the edge of a new desktop and there was no airborne dust at all.
I have the ct midi (not the mini)
The fact that you weren't sponsored by any of these companies is a huge plus imo. I am always leery of videos 'reviewing' sponsored merchandise.
Thank you
I bought the bag made of a material similar to thermal knit you find on jachets and vests. I put it over my cylindrical filter in my Rigid vac. No more 10-15 minute compressed air filter blow outs. The bags are washable and if you have a thermal knit jacket you can use both arms of it and make 2 bags.
An additional item learned on YT was taking the shop vac bag and un folding onr end, opening it up to dump the dust out and re-folding the end and sealing that end with a 1/2 " piece of pvc that has been slit lengthwise and used to bind the folded vac bag end closed. I modified the slit a bit by cutting a "V" into the end of the slit and rounding the slit edges to keep the slit from cutting the vac bag. Works great, no more vac bag purchases unles you suck up a block that cuts your bag.
Hook those ridgid vacs up to something like a concrete surface grinder, and watch how fast they clog up. The self cleaning filter feature, and adjustable suction for different tools ,makes dust extractors a more versatile unit than standard shop vacs. Nice video!
I have used a rigid shop vac extensively for both wood floor sanding and concrete grinding.works fantastic if you use the filter bag.
Without the paper bag, and it is basically useless.
Would you really want to use an expensive festool for concrete dust though? I have hooked up a ridgid vac to a concrete grinder with a dust deputy and that kept the the filter from clogging long enough for me to get the job done.
@@saritsotangkur2438 ....It depends. But dust extractors are hepa and self cleaning. You could still put a dust buddy in front of the festool if you wanted. They're also designed for that type of work.
Fantastic video. I really appreciate your candor in talking about this. I’ve been woodworking for about ten years and definitely did not take dust control as serious as I should have. I only recently put together a full vacuum and dust control system in my shop and while it may not be a three thousand dollar system, your video did reassure me that I made a good decision. Thanks and you definitely have a new subscriber!
Thanks Richard! I’d love to know what you built out with!
This is exactly what I am doing right down to the rigid, filters, switch, and hose. Kind of amazing we have the same stuff (haven't received the filters yet, but they are on order). So excited to see you doing this. I have a couple Festool tools, but really want to avoid buying their dust filtration. I couldn't even wait to watch the video before commenting. Thanks in advance.
Bro, 10 years ago I paid $50 for my vac and it still works just fine… thousand bucks for a vacuum is bananas
Actually the fuller the vacuum filter becomes the finer the particles it removes. The suction decreases but the filtration increases. I have used a 15 year old Rigid shop vac with a Dust Deputy with it for many years with few complaints but I sold Festool systems while working at Woodcraft. It’s a matter of budget and personal preferences.
Hi. This is great to know. I need to sand a few kitchen cabinet shelves in kitchen space and wondering if the Ridgid shopvac with HEPA filter & bag connected to the sander would do a good job with dust collection. Thought about purchasing the Festool but multiple opinions. I also shop at Woodcraft in my area. What are your thoughts about dust indoors with the Ridgid shopvac with HEPA filter & bag hooked up to the sander VS. sander connected to Festool extractor? Thanks a ton if you happen to see this...
I have a Festool C26 which has a bigger motor. The bag lasts forever and will pack like a brick. I primarily use it connected to my miter saw, sanders and track saw. It was a game changer when I first bought it over 10 years ago.... it allowed me to cut in houses. The Festool is a superior system and way cleaner and easier when changing bags. I also use an ambient air cleaner on my jobs and shop..... I can tell the difference in my lungs.
You do have to wonder if your lungs feeling good is a placebo? At least I do. His test wasn’t perfect but at least better than his feelings.
@@aaronblackford981 The ambient air cleaner made it noticeably easier to breath not the Festool vacuum. My jobs are much much cleaner. (free of dust) Its called an 'air scrubber'.... this is what they use at remediation companies. I had a client with asthma... she was complaining of dust despite my best efforts of using fans, plastic walls and masking. I brought in the air scrubber and she was happy.
This is incredibly helpful, thank you SO much for making it!
If the idea is to keep up with the Joneses Festool might not have the noticeable financial return that most businesses likely will see.
Almost 11 years ago I was still heavily involved in a Painting Forum, and Festool flew half a dozen of us business owners to Indiana to pick our brains on the needs of the trade and how Festool can fill those needs. At the time I was fairly vocal about the lack of ease of local purchase, and the overall cost versus the shop vac with bag and HEPA filter I was used to at the time. It all seemed like hype back then. I voiced this one evening during dinner with the execs and was told that I was just the type of tradesman that they were trying to reach. So after a few days of Brain picking sessions, mixed with hands on workshops, and shop talk dinners I flew home interested. That was the first time I had actually put my hands to their lineup as they were not, and are still not in any local stores.
I was pretty invested a few months after that experience and when it comes to sanders and extractors I've been mostly brand loyal since.
You take a top shelf sander and run it without dust collection and it's a good sander from the ergos. Take that same sander paired with good extraction and it becomes a great sander.
Take something like a hundred dollar DeWalt sander and run it without extraction and it's an alright sander. Then hook up that DeWalt sander to that same extractor and it remains just an alright tool because of the balance and vibration.
For me I see the return of investment in man hours, sundry costs like plastic, and clean up times. It's a selling feature that we can do stuff cleaner and faster than the majority in town can, that is something most non penny pinching customers can appreciate when it's experienced. That's something that most diy or weekend warriors won't experience because they are not selling the idea to their customers.
Of course my situation is different from many shop purchasers because I'm bringing the tools to the project versus the other way around. Festool isn't perfect, nor is it the only game in town but I can say I've never lost money with any of the Festool purchases I've made.
Thank you for sharing that experience! Very cool that they did that for you. I agree. For a pro, I think it’s usually wise to invest in high quality longer lasting products that will make the job better and faster.
I’m new into having a new garage setup and super glad I came across this video. Awesome job!!
Thank you Joel
My guess on the results is that the old and dirty filter was giving additional filtering--the new dust couldn't get past the old dust that had clogged the filter.
My suspicion too.
My understanding is that the antistatic hose is not so much for preventing the user getting shocked. Rather, it is meant to prevent sparks occurring in a possibility dusty environment. With the idea ratio of fine dust particulars suspended in air (stoichiometer ratio), a small spark can trigger combustion. This is a huge concern in dusty industrial environments. I don't think this is a big problem in most wood shops but antistatic hoses are safer and can be used anywhere
Kind of true,but not really. Understanding the danger of sparks certainty effects how you work. Good news is that in almost any small shop, sparks are not an issue. 4” and under DC hoses/piping are not big enough to allow a spark ignited explosion. So your shop vac is certainly safe regardless of the hose.
A long-time woodworker - at age 77 I’ve been woodworking over fifty years. I have been using Festool dust extraction for about ten years. With COPD I can sand and cut and not exacerbate my lung condition. I also run two ceiling dust filtration system. We’re it not for Festool in particular, I’d no longer be able to sand and finish wood. Perhaps if I’d have had their dust extraction system as a young man I would not suffer with the impact of COPD that I do now. When I started working with wood there was no awareness of the impact of sawdust on one’s lungs.
What are your lungs worth? They’re taken for granted until you lose lung function. Take my word for it: life is a lot harder at 50% lung function.
Great video and I liked the test comparisons. I wouldn't want to ruin your $29 "hepa equivalent" vacuum :), but it would be interesting to see air quality measurement using a new non-hepa filter and bag. Might be a worth a test to see if the extra expense for the green colored filters are really worth the cost!
Great suggestion!
@@wittworks I second that, Witt. I'm curious to know if there is enough difference to justify the extra cost and to see how much the airflow compares to and "older-but-very-effective" standard filter. Just not curious enough to buy a $200 tester LOL.
I’ve never been so conflicted 😂 As someone who is both frugal AND believes (mostly) “you get what you pay for”, I am having second thoughts about my recently-purchased, run-of-the-mill shop vacuum.
For me, it’s a matter of ‘where will I end up’. If I thought my woodworking hobby would turn into a full-time job, like you said, the Festool offers a lot of no-so-obvious advantages. After upgrading some tools to more contractor-grade, I find myself thinking “Why didn’t I buy these to begin with?!” But again, at the time of initial purchase, I didn’t know how far my skills would grow.
It sounds like either option is great; just having to weight cost with bells and whistles. But damn those are some nice whistles on the Festool. I’ll stick with my peasant vacuum for now 😂 but you’ve given me something to think about!
thanks! the bells and whistles are where they get you. And the system is really the main selling point in my opinion. But "buy once cry once" usually always applies...
If you can afford it fine go to Festool, but it’s not really worth it (I have both rigid vacs and the Festool midi). At the end of the day they both vacuum sawdust (and I’ve vacuumed drywall dust with the rigid) and don’t spit it back into the air.
One thing about Festool tools is their resale value is about 70-80% of their initial cost.
Didn’t know that! Thank you
I watched your clear and honest TH-cam movie with great interest. Understand your problem related to particulate matter; the festool machine lets through just as much particulate matter as the cheaper machine.
Maybe the following information can help you:
In europe, festool carries 2 MIDI machine models; CTL & CTM
The CTL model is intended for dust class L
and the CTM for dust class M
In Europe we don't know "hepta" designation maybe such a designation is also a heavily exaggerated sales argument, which in any case is confirmed by your measurements.
Good luck with testing.
greetings Hans
Take the wheels off the shop vac and mount them under a little cart that has room for the shop vac below and the cyclone above. Now you have a small footprint and if you want you can put a top shelf above the cyclone and stack things on top.
I'd try putting the meter close to where your face is while using the tracksaw. It doesn't really matter what's coming out of the exhaust port, just what you're breathing in.
I'd imagine that the significantly lower suction on the old shop vac translates to a poorer extraction at the tool. You might be able to measure that with your meter.
Good insight. Thank you.
Great content! Another idea is an old central vacuum canister unit. I come across old used ones all the time…so many that I often throw many away.
The suction power is significantly higher since it’s using a tangential discharge motor rather than a flow through (like a a typical shop vac) and you can mount them on the wall. Many can be adapted to use a hepa bag as well. You can also port the exhaust outside which means zero emissions indoors!
nice tip! I want to try that
Hell's when I was a kid dad Used PVC pipe and manifold to his entire system..every tool station had a 3" Pipe going to it and integrated filter's.
He used an Industrial shop vac and Spherical fiberglass cyclone chamber
His invention was a Spherical Loudspeaker enclosure so any rejects of the Mould's he used for chicken coups and Containers, he also made a Heat lamp home heating system
Great Video, very informative, and I like your sense of humor