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It's for removing dust... potentially bad dust, the kind where you toss the 3M in the decon burn bag along with the rest of the stuff it sucked up... Off to the incinerator for all of it...
You want to have fun with your home made anamonotor, I did thins in Jr high school some 40 plus years ago with my science class, I kinda blew away my teacher And he was a diving instructor outside of school. The unit was set up to see who could pull up the liquid the highest on the scale most kids didn't raise the fuild very high, I almost pulled the liquid out of the unit before being told to stop. The teacher said he had never seen anyone do this. Now the trick is small bites of air rapidly not just one big bunch of draw, he asked how I knew this, I said it just seemed to make more sense I could lift the fluid in tiny gulps with less effort then try and fight gravity and air pressure. This brings up the point small bits of energy used but a lot of burst can do more then the large efforts you try to do all at once. So challenge your son to see how far up the tube you can pull the liquid, then blow his mind but don't tell him how you did it. You suck on the straw in tiny gulps rapidly let him try to drink it in one gulp. If you've made it right he can't pull the fulid to the top no one can. Hell your vacumes cant even do it. A vacume pump would and thats how they can draw down to 0 no atmosphere. If you've got a vacume pump make an air tight box Put in a speaker play music in it loud, draw the air out and the sound will stop even though the speakers still moving. Sound dosnt travel in a vacume Doing projects like this are fun and educational they also make you think. You build a better mind your son would benefit from it. And have fun doing it.
My shop vac actually gets more cfm than my makita dust extractor. You make a good point on the real differences being noise, form factor, and features. One thing you don't mention is the cheap vacuums spew dust when you so much as move them.
We sand 1000's of plywood boards every year using Mirka Deros and Festool vacuum combinations for printing on. We have literally used EVERY net based sandpaper we can get our hands on and have a bunch of vacuums besides the Festool from WAP, NILFISK, AEG. We use the Festool for one reason - NOISE. The Mirka we don't use Cubitron Extract 180g but prefer the Mirka 180g as it has larger holes so it vacuums the surface better as the first sanding releases longer Fibers which the 3M doesn't cope so well with. We are also experimenting with turbo brushes as they really remove abrasive residue, dust and loose fibers - remember we print directly on the wood in the same room as we have laser cutters The result is that a good vacuum brushing between grits really helps your sanding. We also have 2.5um sensors monitoring the situation - when the bag is full, we see the numbers skyrocket because the airflow drops so much.
in germany, any dust extractor worth a damn has a rating. There are 3 levels based on the danger level of the material. - L for light danger, so any household dust. - M for construction work, so wood, concrete and so on. - H for high danger, so mould, asbestos or so. Since making filters is kinda pricy, most manufacturers put the good M quality filters into the L level dust extractors aswell, so the filtration is usually still good on them. Class M monitors airflow to check when the filters are clogged and automatically cleans them if they notice a drop. i think this is also where you have to ground the hoses to prevent electric charge buildup. Class H requires better filtration and much less dusty bag changes. If you have any employees as a blue collar worker, you are legally required to get at least a class M extractor, but for hobby woodworkers, a class L machine for around 100 bucks is probably good enough.
As you mentioned, the 3M sander and paper make a big difference, regardless of vac. Ran a Makita with gold paper for years with a vac and would see fine dust everywhere in the shop, even with a separate filter running. Switched to extract sander and paper and haven't seen any since.
We purchased a couple of "Dust Deputy" (s). Hooked them up to a low cost vacuum - which we had installed a main bag filter - and then a typical round HEPA filter at the top of the wet/dry vacuum - covering over the floating 'wet' ball. It does of course only work on dry stuff; and I haven't measured the air quality - but the vast, vast, vast majority of stuff is deposited into the Dust Deputy; a fine powder into the cheap bag vacuum filter; and the HEPA filter seems to remain quite clean. And it was all fairly low cost - budget wise. And you can hook a dust deputy up to virtually any vacuum. I also hooked one up to my expensive wood flooring sander; going back to the vacuum - for almost 100% dust free floor sanding. [They've changed the design slightly - ours are all metal - but the "Oneida Air Dust Deputy" would still work. All power is from your vacuum - and I know the 'cyclone' seems to be lame - but believe me - it totally works.]
I bought something called a "Dustopper Pro" from one of the big box stores and slapped it on a home Depot bucket. I was actually shocked at how much it collected. I thought it would be pretty mediocre because the shape is so much different than the internet's beloved Dust Deputy type cyclones. There's basically no dust in the shop vac itself except for the finest layer. The layer was as if it just sat in an abandoned attic and left open for a couple months and so a thin later of dust accumulated. So combined with the filter I'm quite content with this level of dust collection. Now I just need to build a cabinet for get my tablesaw so it doesn't just dump dust on the floor.
Thank you for taking your time to comment with so much good information. Seriously, your comment answered the questions that led me to this video. The content of this video was definitely adjacent to the answers I needed, and it was a very well done video. That said, it was this comment that had exactly what I was looking for. Freakin' thank you @daves7775 . Everybody likes to say that anything you want to know is there with a few tippity taps, and that's mostly true. But, I've had many experiences searching the web for some information, or instructions, for pretty common use cases, where even after going through a lot of search results, something about my common use case would make it unique enough that even the mighty intarweb didn't have the answer. I was just about to call it a wrap on this particular intel effort and pause the project attached to it until I read your comment. Good shit man
The cost difference is OHSA, Health and Safety, insurance, etc. I know I'm late to the party here. You can put a fleece bag in a shop vac and get HEPA filtration, but it will NEVER be certified. For someone with employees, who has to comply with workplace safety and respiratory protection rules/laws, you have to have a dust extractor (read: Certified, read: expensive!, read: BIG MONEY to get independently certified to specific tech specs). Also, if you're working with dangerous materials, it requires specific certification for that. I.e., more money for certification and technical compliance, such as auto shut off when full or clogged, etc. Doesn't surprise me at all that a shop vac can match actual performance. But it will never meet regulatory compliance.
I am just a hobbyist and I do not regret the Festool CT 26E dust extractor. Having variable suction power is important when you have a good sander. I use to have the DeWALT sander I had to stop every so often because of the fatigue from the vibration. I looked at both the Mirka and Festool sanders and went with the Festool. I did not like the paddle on top of the sander that was the power switch. Both were otherwise very similar in handling and comfort. Coupled with the Festool extractor, only a very small amount of dust was left on the piece that I was sanding. Having variable power comes in great here. You want to lower the power setting when sanding as you don't want the sander being sucked down when sanding as you going to be sanding the dust and pushing it into the wood, making more of a mess and less getting sucked away. I am not a fanboy of any brand. The best tool for the job. I have Makita, DeWALT, Ryobi, Bosch, Milwaukee and Festool. I don't like the price of the Festool products, but they are great tools.
i worked for the post office in the early 2000's repairing mail sorting machines. These machinrs get shut down and cleaned every morning and go through some tests to make sure they are ready to sort mail. Sorning mail by machines creates a lot of very fine paper dust. If you recall there was an idiot sending contaminated dust (ricen powder) through the mails that caused a lot of rethinking when it came to dust in the workplace. Beforehand the sorting machines were blown out every morning using compressed air and then the machines were vacuumes out to remove the dust. When I walk=ed into work at 2:30PM and there was so much dust that you could not clearly see things 500ft away (very large work floor). The procedure changed after they found unsafe materials were being sent through the mails to congressmen and other officials. Compressed air was removed along with the air hoses. machines were vacuumed out with new HEPA vacs that cost over a grand each. The result was the air was clean when I came into work but this was because we were not using compressed air to blow down the machines not just because of the HEPA vacs. i suspect a good quality vac would have done a good job at 1/10th the cost but I'm sure the HEPA was better,
What I surmised from this experiment is, the 3m is ridiculously overpriced for the marginal difference between it and the festool, the festool would be worth it for a professional shop or very successful side hustle based on the motor quality alone, and the Ridgid I use for everything from dust collection to cleaning my truck with will do an excellent job for a hobbyist. Great video and info as always pastor.
eh... sort of. The 3M is priced that way because it has features for a professional auto-body shop that a woodworker doesn't care about. Specifically, it features automatic on/off for both electric and pneumatic tools. This is something even the Festool doesn't offer and is a big deal in professional auto shops where pneumatic tools are in common use. You're 100% right that it's way too much for a hobbyist - because it's not meant for a hobbyist. Honestly if you're a hobbyist and want an upgrade from a shop vac to a dust extractor with HEPA filtration the Fein Dust Extractors are a much better deal. The Fein Turbo I was a huge upgrade for me from a cheap shop vac with HEPA filtration and auto on/off for about $350. A huge savings compared to the equivalent Festool which comes in at $600 - $800.
Really fantastic testing and analysis. I'm a longtime vacuum tech, and your approach to testing these machines is rare. I would love to see each vacuum in a sealed "clean container" like a Sterilite tub and see how much the particle counter rises as you pick up fine debris like sheetrock dust. Awesome job. Thanks for this video!
Very nice video. I normally buy a new vacuum for the house and take the old house vacuum to the workshop. But the mini filters clogs up very fast during sanding. To stop and clean that filters, is the problem, I can literally see the dust in air, even if I clean it inside my dirt bin. Point I want to make, I bought a Hazard L vacuum the other day, with an manual push button to clean filter, the issue I found during use... The air coming out of the machine, is almost 60 degree downwards. Blowing all the dust what was lying on the floor, into the air. The reason I'm saying 60 degrees, it is between 750 - 1000mm away from the vacuum. Luckily I always keep my floor clean, but imagine you don't.... How much dust will be flying around in my little workshop. ... Very interesting data/info you showed.
I agree with the conclusion... I have the Ridgid shopvac (and believe any homeowner should have one) and the Festool 36. I used the Ridgid for "dust collection" for about 15 years. I like the Festool much more. It's a lot quieter, has some great features, AND, on the Ridgid, I had to clean the filter almost daily. I think it's been at least a month since I cleaned the filter on my Festool (and I checked yesterday and it's still very clean).
Sound levels are one of the reasons Iwould consider a more expensive vacuum. I wonder if we did all of the vacs a diservice by not using the hose that came with the vac. The hose can make a huge differrence in perfotmance and I would expect that each vac would have hose designed for it's specific performance curve. I would think that hose is an integral part of each vacs overall system performance. Thanks for the video.
I'm very late to this conversation but I can tell you as a guy who JUST got a festool dust extractor (used.) and has always used a Rigid shop vac, that there is a major difference. The auto on and off is great by the way. But the rigid doesn't seem to clear dust from the sander nearly as fast as the festool. For once my shop doesn't have fine dust drifting about. I think several factors contribute. The rigid seems to suffer a lot from the narrow opening that connects to the sander And the exhaust blows any loose dust around exacerbating the situation further. The festool has an adjustable suction that is very beneficial. It can be adjusted so the dust is cleared, but doesn't pull the sander harder into the sanded surface. Over a long period of sanding the rigid gets hot and will eventually stop. The festool doesn't seem to suffer, even sanding lots of drywall. Another massive benefit is the bags. I use a bag in the rigid because it helps the filters last. But, it still gets hot after a long day and may shut off. And pulling the bag out almost guarantees dust getting out. The festool bag can be full of dust so fine it feels like liquid, and it's very easy to isolate the mess still. Still, I'm not throwing out the rigid anytime soon. For reference, the festool was bought used for $150 (and included two festool sanders.) and is from 2011 I believe. The rigid was bought in January of 2024. I can't afford to drop a bunch of money on festool normally so I jumped at the price.
The approach I take to woodworking dust is: 1) I preference low dust tools a lot; 2) I have mobile elements to my workshop, and save a lot of dusty work for outside. This is tough in a winter climate where a lot of people want to do shop stuff in the winter and play during the summer. 3) I have a Racal helmet/3M and those things are life changing. However, if you do a lot of sanding in a cluttered shop all the time you are not wearing the helmet, you will be eating some dust. This is why 1) and 2). I also have a Shopvac with HEPA and bag, a dust extractor, and an air cleaner. 4) I recently bought a leaf blower for the yard, turns out it blows dust out of the shop like nothing else I have seen.
GREAT job as always Drew. I have a porter cable dust extractor that is tool activated and has a bag and HEPA filter. I have a similar extractor made by Fein and use both frequently, these are my sander extractors. I have 3 shop vacs with bags and filters set up for miter saws and router use , also tool activated. My dust collection system is a Jet 1.75 HP I think. The biggest thing I have done for my air quality is a ceiling mounted air filter. In fact I now have 2. Stubby Nubbs did a video on improving the function and I did that on my first one purchased a Jet. This ended up being a LOT of $. My next unit purchased a Wen for job site use originally is now also in my shop. I did all the same mods only using less expensive alternatives for the big cleanable filter. This would be an interesting test with your expensive ( divorce material ) meter. All I can tell you is when running them I have MUCH less surface dust on things in the shop than without using my “ Pretty darn good “ dust extracting set ups. Plus my heater ( Live in Northern Maine ) has a filter and I no longer ever have the clean the filter alarm go off. Without the air filter it did. I still use a dust mask on occasions but I feel OK not using one most of the time now.
I use my shop vac, which gets cleaned frequently, especially when sanding. I wear a mask and use a homemade box fan filter with a K&N filter for additional filtration. No fine dust in the morning on any flat surfaces. Works wonderfully for me. Thanks for the video.
I have an older Rigid model too and luckily my version does let me use dust bags. I use them and find they hold about 70-75% of the full reservoir without a bag. I love my Rigid --is super reliable and provides all of the suction I need. Plus the bag plus internal filter seems to do a great job keeping exhaust particulates out of the air.
Always use dust bags on shop vacs unless using it for water. Bags are cheaper than filters and will keep the air flow and filter performance better for longer. Also the vacuum outblow port design changes a lot how the total dust gets. I have a cheap one, works great but the outblow and motor cooling air flow blasts dust up from the floor behind it
I use the Oneida cyclone hooked up to a Ridgid shop vac. The shop vac does use a bag, which saves filters. Most of the dust is caught by the cyclone. I rarely have to change the bags in the shop vac. The limitation is the tool itself to which the hose is connected. The miter saw, as one would expect, is the worst. The router table and the table saw also produce quite a bit of random uncaptured dust. In order to mitigate the dust in the air, I built a mobile filter cart using a squirrel cage from a residential hvac system and standard hvac filters. That device captures a lot of dust. It is a fairly high cfm device. I also wear a 3M particle mask anytime I'm producing sawdust. For a hobby, garage-based woodworker, I feel fairly well protected.
I use the 3M sander and matching paper mated with a cheap shop-vac. The difference is that I have the vac mounted outside in a box with the exhaust port of the vac blowing out into the yard and the hose running through a hole in the wall. My shop is small (only 13 x 21) so I just have about 30' of hose attached to it coiled up under a bench. I find it works very well and you can barley hear it run! I actually keep my shop cleaner with this setup because I don't have to don ear protection every time I turn on the vac. Also, because a shop-vac does not move a high volume of air I don't notice it pulling much of the heat out of the shop in the winter (I am in Michigan). This was a great video! thank you for confirming my suspensions!
I just invested in my first HEPA vacuum for sanding as my 20 year old Craftsman hooked to my Makita orbital sander left the table white with sawdust after sanding a few wood panels. I decided to buy the new DeWalt Stealthsonic vacuum for $139 at Lowes. Using the same sander the table is almost dust free after sanding the same amount of panels. I'm not saying its the best, I am saying that it works for what I need.
fyi theoretically flow restriction from hose differences, filter cleanliness, etc has no effect on static pressure. That's because there is no flow to develop a pressure drop across said restriction. Presumably the fact that you did measure small differences was due to leakage, so that there still was some airflow.
I’ve been watching more and more of your videos Drew and the information here is fantastic. I recently purchased one of those super quiet shopvacs from Dewalt. I think it’s called stealth sonic and I’m loving that and will probably use that for my sanding dust collection. I don’t think I’m ready for a dust extractor just yet, but I will look into an option for turning the machine on at the same time as the vacuum. Thanks for a great video.
Great Video! While i haven't set it all up yet i plan to connect my shop vac with hepa bag in line with a small dust deputy cyclone and a system of central vac pipes to run the High pressure, low volume dust collection system in my shop. I intend to use it for general cleanup, a swing arm hose for handheld power tools and hooking to the dust port on my miter saw and a dust hood on the table saw. That is in addition to my 4" dust collection system, the air cleaners and masks!
Another great video / comparison. I was quite happy with my Ridgid vac with Hepa filter and bag upgrades using my 3M Extract sander…but I was getting nailed with static electricity here in Colorado at 7600ft. I even tried an “anti-static” hose. No joy. So I went with the Festool MIDI as it has the cloth coated anti static hose and is grounded. This is after contacting 3M and their tecs could not confirm anti static properties other than the rubber coated hose. Using a 3D printed hose adapter on the MIDI to the 3M sander made the system a pleasure to use now.
you can add hepa to your shop vac an also a bluetooth button/outlet. or the outlets that lets you add the shop vac with a 3 sec delay. thats what i have. turning the tool on, turns the vac on. with the bucket cyclone to make the hepa bag last longer
I found the Ridgid vacuums to be quite noisy and so so built. I switched to Dewalt "cheap" vacs: better wheels, quieter, better switch, washable filter, and just better design and construction all round (I recommend upgrading the hose though). At work, I do use the Festool Midi which is great.
Thanks for taking the time to do these test it would have been brutal. But my favourite part was I trust it because it has Pro in front of it that was priceless
I work underground in a coalminer as a mine foreman. Air quality is very important and use an anemometer hourly. I can tell you with certainty than the best way to move dust from the atmosphere is with more volume and less velocity, to remove gas it is better to have a higher velocity.
How do you change the amount of suction with a shop vac? That's the feature that separates a dust extractor from a shop vac since it lets you ensure you're not just adhering your sander to the surface of the workpiece.
Seems like a good place to leave this story. There was once a person who needed to do some drywall work and used an electric sander. Soon that person couldnt see across the room and realized his error. That room took months to get back to a clean (breathable ) state. That room was the master bedroom.
I got my xtract extractor for $950 shipped. If the price has jumped that much, I thank my good fortune. I probably would not be a buyer at $1400, but not because it isn't worth it. I love it. It is permanantly paired with my xtract sander. The only better sanding experience might be SurfPrep. My Bosch miter saw is permanently paired with a Bosch VAC090AH extractor which I think I got for around $700 shipped. I like integrated solutions and I don't like disintegrating them for other uses. The Bosch has a thumper to shake the filter which helps a lot. The rest of my shop is on a central unit. I have a Fein Turbo II relegated to "shop vac" duty. It is in the garage for household tasks and the like. I don't know better value when you step up to HEPA compliance. $400 get's you there with a superior unit to everything else at that price point. It just still isn't the Bosch, Festool, or 3M. I have never owned or used the Festool, but trust your results. If I were looking for a shop vac, or HEPA wasn't important, it would be the Fein Turbo I. You can't get a better shop vac at the price point in my opinion.
1 minute in, and I'm literally saying to myself - "Finally!" Thankyou so much Wittworks, you're a star! 🙂This is something I've been hoping someone with the right resources would do, ever since I went down the dust extraction rabbit hole.
Thank you for such a well produced vid. The problem with wood dust, hard woods being the most dangerous, is that all the dust below 0.5microns will remain suspended in the air for 24 hours. These are the bad guys and will be disturbed again with airflow and movement. A hanging dust extractor is the only option, which is left on over night, after you've cleaned up with the shop vac. They can filter the air over night, are quiet, and low power, and hang above head height. Your air quality testing was well intended, but I believe a complete waste of time and distracted from the main focus; was a cheap shop vac good enough to do the job of a more expensive one?
I would definitely be interested in seeing the difference in dust control between the Extract ROS and paper vs. a Makita/DeWalt/Ryobi ROS with like… Gator paper. Maybe even change it up and use the Gator paper with the Extract sander and the Extract paper with the “Big 3” sander. I’m also curious about the effect that a cyclonic-style dust separator has on the shop vac performance. I have a sneaking suspicion that a decent shop vac with a cyclonic separator with the Extract paper and a halfway decent ROS would come very close to something like a full-out Festool setup, for a fraction of the price.
Thanks for going through all of this to share health & safety info for all of us. Your boldness is saving some of our marriages and lives. Probably in the order
I'm definitely not fan girling out... But I think you're my favorite TH-camr. That damn marking knife story... Great tests, much more intelligent than I. Thank you for taking the time to be legit. You have the highest quality channel with the least subscribers of any I've seen. Meaning you'll have over a 100k soon.
I have not had trouble with sawdust but I would say that drywall dust and concrete dust will most certainly kill the motor bearings in a shop-vacc. in high volume.
There’s an issue of being appropriate to the intended use of a vacuum. I *invested* in the high end Festool CT 36 E with the CT-VA 20 to separate out the chunky stuff encountered in remodeling. Yeah, it was really expensive. The Festool extractor is a fine tool for dust when attached to something like a sander. In remodeling old houses there’s toxic materials so I felt good about the investment. But, the small hose easily gets clogged when vacuuming up the chunky crap we see in remodeling deteriorating old houses. It doesn’t have the high CFM that I needed either. So, I’m now looking for a cheap shop vac for remodeling that has the bigger 2-1/2” hose and higher CFM. It’s either the Harbor Freight biggest Bauer shop vac or the rigid at Home Depot for the chunky remodeling vac while the Festool deluxe dust extractor is dedicated to sanding. The right tool for the right job!
Oh you know what you'll get a kick out of? You know what works really well for sucking up ultrafine drywall dust? My Dyson v11 outsize on boost mode. As long as you don't hold it upside down, virtually none of it gets through to the filter. After going through several months of renovation, all I've ever had to do is just tap the filter against a tree whenever I've used it upside down. It's absolutely wild. Not a contractor vacuum at all. I'm considering buying a used cinetic model to use for this kind of stuff in the future!
My shop vac has a bag and the filter has a “sock” used on pools, would be interesting to see if this setup is better. I never have to replace my HEPA filter since I use a bag and the sock.
You talked about this. Long lasting reliability. I've had two 6.5HP Ridgid shop vacs die on me. I bought a third one but I made a new Thien baffle and this one has a small door that I could slide open on the top when I'm using the thinner hose for my sander. This door reduces the pressure a bit so that the shop vac isn't as stressed. I think this has made a difference in 'lastability' and it still does an okay job of getting most of the dust but a mask is still needed.
I am so glad you hit on the enjoyment factor tools might give you. I enjoy your content it is very fun to watch and I wish you much success , thank you.
There’s a problem with your anemometer testing that is consistent across all YT extractor tests. Atmospheric pressure fills a vacuum from all directions and is acting against the exposed back area of the anemometer, countering it’s rotation and adding turbulence to the airflow. These effects will both increase with the rate of airflow/pressure differential. You should 3D print an adapter that encloses the back of the anemometer, or cut up a funnel, so that air can only enter through the front. That said, well done! I do enjoy the content and delivery.
The U-tube manometer is old school but it is as accurate as the ruler. BUT this rig stops the flow of air through the machine (with the exception of suction leakage). The condition of filter or fill in the bag won't have any impact. Without flow there is no pressure drop through the filter. A better (but much more difficult test) would be to measure suction static at varying flow rates.
These are the resolute I expect based on years of experience with my “orange” vacuums. I always use bags. Makes the vac last for years! Using them on construction sites they last about 8 years. They are excessively noisy.
I'm not going to lie, there was a point where the number crunching made my eyes glaze over. I even started to second guess my "evil green" dust collector. But then I remembered how much I like knowing it mates up perfectly to the other Festool tools in my shop. So I have to agree with your summary. As a hobby level woodworker who occasionally makes a few bucks, I didn't need that level of tool, but is sure makes life in my shop more enjoyable.
I think this proves the sanding tool is integral to successful dust extraction. I’ve used both cheap and high end extractors. The high end units are just nicer, quieter, and like it was said- more enjoyable to use.
I actually picked up a Bauer shop vac a month or two ago, and here at the beginning I'd say it's only a little bit louder than any dust extractors I've used. Not sure if that will last forever as I'm sure the motor has cheaper parts that will shift/loosen break faster, but these results make me feel great about my purchase!
(1) OSHA is not the boss of us (small businesses dealing in just INTRAstate commerce). We are not dealing in INTERstate commerce, so are not subject to their jurisdiction. (2) If you want to change the game hugely, with any of your vacs, incorporate a Dust Deputy [DD]. I have three and it is for good reason that I do. They, each, add a lot of run time, before I have to clean the filters. Using a DD does come at a slight cost in loss of suction. (3) Good dust collection at the sander does not just make for safer sanding, it adds life to your sand paper and disks. Removing the dust, as it's generated, reduces loading of the paper. That is why those of us who do a lot of sanding spend more on disks like those sold by Festool or Mirca. (4) My vacuums are limited in how much I can control the suction by the jury rigged system I use, which is similar to what common household vacuums use - an intake port that can be adjusted by making the intake larger or smaller. The only purpose of the adjustable intake port is to control how hard the sander is pulled down against flat stock, which, "it is said," can affect dust collection AND affects how well the random orbit spins. However, when sanding things and having the disc over the piece and in thin air, more suction is preferred, to better catch what is thrown off. (5) The BEST thing I ever did to solve sanding problems was, build a sanding table connected to one of my dust collectors, AND add sides, a back and a top, so all the air has to be drawn from where I am working. I am limited in the size of things I can sand in the sanding station, but about 80%, or more of what I do can be. Even using a Foredom and an aggressive carbide bit, I can watch the dust being thrown off, then a few inches in, do a 90 down into the table. Using this in combination with an extractor makes for a very pleasant sanding experience.
I don't know what kind of mask you're using there at 6:29 and again near the end. I use P100 mask with replaceable filters and which makes a good seal where it sits on the face. I love it, and I don't smell any sawdust until _after_ I take it off just outside the shop door.
On-the-cheap: (approx $30.00) I put a high quality 20 x 20 in filter in back of my 20 x 20 in "Big Box" , box fan. My particle counter has shown that this very inexpensive set up, does quite well at removing pm 2.5 particles.
So there's a semi counterintuitive explanation for why the semi full shop vac filtered better. As the filter was slightly more clogged it actually let less particulate matter through the filter, but it was also making the vacuum work harder and less efficiently. This would make the filter more effective over time but would eventually burn up the motor if you never cleaned it. Actually it would probably kill enough pressure that it wasn't sucking up particulate matter well first too. But it would definitely not be good for the life of the motor.
One thing you didn’t hit on in the video which is super important is noise levels. I’ve found my relatively quiet Festool dust extractor is WAY less fatiguing to be around than my old shop vac due to the noise level and frequencies (even with OSHA-compliant ear protection). It’s worth the money to me for that reason alone.
If I did a lot of sanding and was worried about dust to the point of a $1500 shop vac --- then it seems like a cheaper and more effective approach would be to have whatever vac, a sawdust separator - and the final exhaust from the vacuum system being ported to outside the shop. Then minor differences in fine particles in the exhaust wouldn't really matter.
@14:30 LOLOLOL. that was awesome. And it was a very thorough test test. For a second, I thought Mathias was collab'ing with you! And @18:30 I was about to type that the 3M sander and xtrack/cubitron? was efficient enough that the vacuum wasn't the limiting factor. I don't know how loud the 3M/Festool is, but that RIGID vacuum is loud as hell. So that's another risk factor. As someone with hearing loss (did stupid things in the Army) loudness matters too. I use the Quiet DeWalt vacuum, Fein vacuum (both with filter bags) and it works great. The DeWalt goes to the bottom of the SawStop and the Fein goes to the top guard/dust-hood. Works really well.
Great video! I bought a Ridgid vacuum and Cen-Tec hose based on your other videos about dust collection. Only thing I would change is how loud the Ridgid vac is.
I would've kept my good hose had my old shop vac died instead of going to my Nan lmao, although all I do is mostly light demolition and vacuuming gravel out of shitbox trucks anyway
Well, for sanders, I think most people even turn down the dust extraction strength at least on Festool / Festool combo anyway so all that extra suction is not necessary there. In other applications, though (e.g. saws, routers, etc) its very handy. So the choice of tool could well be impacting testing results (like you said, once you reach the minimum threshold it's good enough, maybe). And of course, the creature comforts (bluetooth remote, bluetooth battery operation for the cordless saw, etc) can't be beat.
The biggest reason to hook a vacuum of any kind to your tools is to keep the shop clean. If you are worried about fine particulates in the air that normal vacuums may not remove, get a respirator and/or get a longer hose and put the vacuum outside of your shop. Save your money for more or better tools.
love the video! had a Rigid Shop vac starting out as a diy woodworker, looking to upgrade but i guess ill buy another rigid! The video was very informative, thank you!
My cyclone dust collector made out of a couple of home depot 5 gal buckets and various PVC and 3D printed bits works surprisingly well with my cheap ridgid vac. I only use the (antique at this point) table saw for a couple of cuts a few times a year, so it is fine for my purposes.
My vacuum system is made up of two different shop vac, (and old rigid and a Shopvac), and I added a dust deputy on each one all housed in carts with a baffle system to knock down the noise. They work pretty well. I also have an overhead Jet air cleaner. Been using this system for years now I have been really happy with it. I agree in a professional shop a higher end dust collection system is warranted, but for my shop what I have does great. Thanks for the video and the work.
I can’t see if anyone has done this, but do you think you could make an equivalent to the Festool cyclone by putting a dust deputy in one systainer, and use a large systainer as a collector underneath it for collection? Then you could stack on top which can’t be done with an Oneida.
I have a festool ct mini. Its a great little dust extractor. I just wish the extractor was bigger, and had the hepa cleaner function, as well as the bluetooth option. But for what it is, its p good with most of my tools.
Let me put you on par with what I believe to be relevant to this whole issue. I generally love your videos for the entertaining content and also for the cinematic lighting ;-) This one leaves some things to be desired, though, or at least to be clarified. Also note that I stopped to write this comment at 20:36 The difference in different shop vacs/extractors lies within federal regulations and the compliance thereof. Usually, when deepdiving into these subjects, I find that federal regulations and laws are usually pretty similar on an international level, so I'll just apply what I know from the German Trade Association to whatever regulations may apply to your area. There are three different types of dust extractors. Class "M" (Medium), Class "L" (Large) and Class "H" (Hazardous). Class "M" and "L" both generally use the same extracting methods, difference being that "M" class extractors comply with a wide array of regulations, such as auditive indications of whether or not the dust bag is full or the filter is dirty. The autoclean function is also something that complies with these regulations, actively avoiding a clogged up hepa filter. Class "L" doesn't have these technical intricacies, hence being priced a lot cheaper; downside being that they are restricted from professional use (in a business environment) if you have either employees or customers within the estate in which you practice your trade. Class "H" takes the whole compliance issues way further and incorporates the legal use of these extractors for extraction of hazardous materials, such as asbestos. As you stated, a "shop vac" is merely a shop vac, nothing more and nothing less. It is meant for clearing out the roughest dust from within your workshop, but doesn't guarantee the extraction of any health hazardous particles. Typically a shop vac would extract something around 80% of generally "bad" particles/dust, while professional class "L" or "M"extractors, like the Festool, suck up around 99% of particles. Moving to the class "H" they remove something around 99.9%, whereas the last 0.9% only make up for things like the asbestos particles. So to conclude: Is it worth getting a 1300 USD dust extractor? It depends. If you're a woodworker, there's generally no need for a class "H" extractor. If you have employees or customers within your workspace, you will NEED a class "M" extractor. But if you're by yourself, there's no need to get anything "better" than a class "L" extractor. All that is referring to the use of these extractors in a business environment, mind you. If you're woodworking in private in your garage by yourself, do whatever you deem necessary, although I would advise getting at least a class "L", rather than only working with a shop vac. Your health will thank you in the long run. One last thing to keep in mind, is that these portable extractors are meant to extract dust from hand tools, such as track saws, sanders and such. They are not meant to extract larger chips/shavings/particles which are usually emitted by planers, thicknessers or even table saws. For those you would need a stationary extraction device, as you mentioned before with the whole High Pressure/Low Volume vs. Low Pressure/High Volume issue. In the end, make sure to check with your local/federal trade association to comply with their laws, regulations, requirements and necessities. These are typically not arbitrary, but are there for a reason. That reason being to ensure the health and safety of the people around you. Just my 2 cents. I hope this was usefull, should you have any further questions, feel free to hit me up.
I've noticed, after a year with my Festool 36, that my shop stays cleaner. When I was using a Ridgid shop vac, which I have 3 dispersed around the house, I noticed the next day that there was a fine layer of dust on most surfaces. While not anywhere near a scientific study, that sold me.
Had my shop vac blow out from sanding. Just couldn't handle the long run times. Upgraded to the festool CT 15 same engine as the midi with just a 4 gallon collection and no fancy static hose .. but for 400 bucks it's an amazing deal for HEPA filtration and does a great job
There is no difference in ability to pick up the dust particles from the job site between any decent shop vac and any glorified dust extraction system like this Festool or that 3M, because they are essentially same shop vacs with bells and whistles. The difference between them is a quality of filtration system. So, you would had to do is to screw all commenters from pervious video and measure PPM near the vacs, not on the job site. Now, if you care about ability to COLLECT as much dust at job sire as possible, then you need to explore proper dust collection systems that move large volumes of air with large hose diameters, large hoods, because it doesn't take too much pressure to pick small unhealthiest particles, but large volumes of air. Conclusion: if you have a small hand tool with small duct port, any decent shop vac would pick up as much as possible from the job site, no need to pay more if this is your only concern. If you're concerned about filtration quality - you need to compare, test and measure. Technically the higher quality of filters, the better exhaust air quality is.
I really enjoyed this video, and a few of your other videos, which I discovered today. However, the section on 'Dynamic Pressure Tests', beginning at 10:18, incorrectly explains what is happening. A woodworker would want to measure the BIGGEST drop possible from the static pressure tests. A low 'dynamic pressure' reading means that there is lots of air moving easily through the tool, which will help collect a lot of dust. The higher the 'dynamic pressure' reading, the less air is moving through the tool and the vacuum hose, and therefore, the less dust the extractor is actually capable of sucking up. What you measured in this part of the video is simply the airflow restriction imposed by the tool and vacuum hose, compared to the zero airflow static pressure, measured earlier. A well-designed tool causes as little airflow restriction as possible, and therefore would show lower 'dynamic pressure' readings than a tool that restricts the airflow more.
I bought my festool after burning up 3 ridgids. 2 of them in a year. Ridgid covered them with their warranty but its still aggravating. I enjoy using the festool and on the few jobs ive done its much easier to transport. The BT control is a cool festure as well.
There is another test missing: what happens when you link 2 Ridgid vacuums on the same tube? Electric consumption was never taken in account, so it might make a difference so 2 Ridgid could replace a Festool for a 10th of the price?
Another be factor is noise, shop vacs are unbearably loud. The extractors tend to be exponentially quieter (ha ha see what I did there sound is measured on a log scale, not linear) but seriously they are way louder.
I did do audio tests using the “db” app on the iPhone. So, grain of salt… I ended up cutting it out of the video because it felt like a narrative departure. I measured 3’ from the front, back, left, and right at a height of 5’ (roughly my ears). Here’s the data: If you take the average, the Festool CT Midi is most quiet at 77.25 dBA followed by the 3M Xtract at 80.5 dBA. The Ridgid Shop vac was the loudest at 83 dBA, except for when the self cleaning function on the 3M turns on - that’s the loudest at 85 dBA. To my ears the Festool is noticeably quieter. - (front, right, rear, left) - Festool CT MIDI: 78, 78, 75, 78 - Average: 77.25 dBA - 3M Xtract: 80, 80, 81, 81 - Average: 80.5 dBA - When I turn on the auto filter clean feature, it measured 85 dB from the front. - Ridgid Shop Vac with exhaust port diffuser: 84, 83, 82, 83 - Average: 83 dBA
The point of the expensive units with HEPA is to shield employers from liability by not putting dust out of the exhaust and contaminating the work area. The Hilti vacuum that "knocks" the filter to clear the filter are great despite their price.
hey drew, I can confirm that a shop vac has a limited lifetime being used as an extractor for orbital sanding. I burnt up a shop vac (2years old) after about 2 months of heavy wodworking use mainly on the orbital. I suspect the restriction in flow, is actually what caused the failure. I can also confirm that for finer dust, the shop vac will drastically reduce performance and will require multiple filter cleanings, every few hours (depending how fine). One test, I was hoping that you would try, would be opening an additional small (maybe 1") port while using the shop vac to help increase cfm through the system and measure suction then. Or, ditch the 1" hose and utilize the shop vac directly to the sander. I think these small tweaks on the shop vac system, could really help performance and suction, or at least put it closer to the dust collector range (if that even matters, which I'm still thinking about in my head). THis would also improve longevity of the shop vac motor/reduce heat buildup. Great information, and great video. See you on the next one. cheers
are you using the shop vac directly to the orbital sander? that's a nono, use a cyclone separator with a bag extension (correct me if you already did that, the purpose of the cyclone is to extend the life of the shop vac filter)
I maintained the filter, had a cyclone, and when it did actually die. i immediately checked the filter, and it wasnt blinded. I just think the hose sizing and CFM limitations from the small port and hose, added alot of load to the shopvac.@@canobenitez
My understanding is that many drywall contractors look for cheap used shop vacs and throw them away when the motor breaks. They are too small to have to deal with OSHA, and pennies matter when doing competitive bidding. I saw a house with several shop vacs in the garage after the drywall work was done on a house. Maybe autoclean would work and save money
Would be interested in this test with a Ridgid vac that accepts a hepa filter and bag. I've used that type of system while sanding skim coated drywall with great results, but it'd be nice to have objective numbers to see
I remember watching a video years ago when a supposed NASA filtration engineer said with 100% confidence to stop buying filters for RIGID vacs etc and to just wrap the cage where the filter installs with basic paper towel. This was years ago but I believe he went into the science and micron pass through of paper towel vs air filters etc. I’m curious to what results your setup would produce. Would be a long term subscriber if this had a possibility of happening. ✌️
The key issue you didn't consider is years of use. We old guys can tell you two things. As you age you get more sensitive and probably need more filtering. Also, years and years of even only occasional hobby use...well it builds up... Take it from this 75 year old. I built my own filter for my shop. But it is only OK and I have the festool on my list. Especially for home decorating as well as shop...where I need to do some dry wall sanding... And also... thanks for all your effort, which I appreciate. I expect many others do too.
I think you're on to something with the sandpaper. I have a similar Ridgid shop vac, although the larger version, paired with a Duststopper cyclone. When I switched to the 3M sandpaper, there was a noticeable difference in the air quality in the shop. It's simply incredible how much more dust it collects and also provides a better finish.
Up in Wichita falls erea average has been 105 and since my shop is non Insulated and only made of tin and like I said no climate control at all I don't go out there until it gets dark and still over 90
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It's for removing dust... potentially bad dust, the kind where you toss the 3M in the decon burn bag along with the rest of the stuff it sucked up... Off to the incinerator for all of it...
You want to have fun with your home made anamonotor,
I did thins in Jr high school some 40 plus years ago with my science class, I kinda blew away my teacher
And he was a diving instructor outside of school.
The unit was set up to see who could pull up the liquid the highest on the scale most kids didn't raise the fuild very high, I almost pulled the liquid out of the unit before being told to stop.
The teacher said he had never seen anyone do this.
Now the trick is small bites of air rapidly not just one big bunch of draw, he asked how I knew this, I said it just seemed to make more sense I could lift the fluid in tiny gulps with less effort then try and fight gravity and air pressure.
This brings up the point small bits of energy used but a lot of burst can do more then the large efforts you try to do all at once.
So challenge your son to see how far up the tube you can pull the liquid, then blow his mind but don't tell him how you did it.
You suck on the straw in tiny gulps rapidly let him try to drink it in one gulp. If you've made it right he can't pull the fulid to the top no one can.
Hell your vacumes cant even do it.
A vacume pump would and thats how they can draw down to 0 no atmosphere. If you've got a vacume pump make an air tight box
Put in a speaker play music in it loud, draw the air out and the sound will stop even though the speakers still moving.
Sound dosnt travel in a vacume
Doing projects like this are fun and educational they also make you think. You build a better mind your son would benefit from it. And have fun doing it.
My shop vac actually gets more cfm than my makita dust extractor. You make a good point on the real differences being noise, form factor, and features.
One thing you don't mention is the cheap vacuums spew dust when you so much as move them.
We sand 1000's of plywood boards every year using Mirka Deros and Festool vacuum combinations for printing on. We have literally used EVERY net based sandpaper we can get our hands on and have a bunch of vacuums besides the Festool from WAP, NILFISK, AEG.
We use the Festool for one reason - NOISE. The Mirka we don't use Cubitron Extract 180g but prefer the Mirka 180g as it has larger holes so it vacuums the surface better as the first sanding releases longer Fibers which the 3M doesn't cope so well with.
We are also experimenting with turbo brushes as they really remove abrasive residue, dust and loose fibers - remember we print directly on the wood in the same room as we have laser cutters
The result is that a good vacuum brushing between grits really helps your sanding.
We also have 2.5um sensors monitoring the situation - when the bag is full, we see the numbers skyrocket because the airflow drops so much.
Best point is the difference between no vacuum & $30. You don't have to spend a lot, but you do need to do something to save your lungs. Nice video!
how do you use a vaccum asa dust extractor while working when you only have 2 hands?
in germany, any dust extractor worth a damn has a rating. There are 3 levels based on the danger level of the material.
- L for light danger, so any household dust.
- M for construction work, so wood, concrete and so on.
- H for high danger, so mould, asbestos or so.
Since making filters is kinda pricy, most manufacturers put the good M quality filters into the L level dust extractors aswell, so the filtration is usually still good on them. Class M monitors airflow to check when the filters are clogged and automatically cleans them if they notice a drop. i think this is also where you have to ground the hoses to prevent electric charge buildup. Class H requires better filtration and much less dusty bag changes.
If you have any employees as a blue collar worker, you are legally required to get at least a class M extractor, but for hobby woodworkers, a class L machine for around 100 bucks is probably good enough.
As you mentioned, the 3M sander and paper make a big difference, regardless of vac. Ran a Makita with gold paper for years with a vac and would see fine dust everywhere in the shop, even with a separate filter running. Switched to extract sander and paper and haven't seen any since.
Good to hear! That was my hunch.
We purchased a couple of "Dust Deputy" (s). Hooked them up to a low cost vacuum - which we had installed a main bag filter - and then a typical round HEPA filter at the top of the wet/dry vacuum - covering over the floating 'wet' ball. It does of course only work on dry stuff; and I haven't measured the air quality - but the vast, vast, vast majority of stuff is deposited into the Dust Deputy; a fine powder into the cheap bag vacuum filter; and the HEPA filter seems to remain quite clean. And it was all fairly low cost - budget wise. And you can hook a dust deputy up to virtually any vacuum. I also hooked one up to my expensive wood flooring sander; going back to the vacuum - for almost 100% dust free floor sanding. [They've changed the design slightly - ours are all metal - but the "Oneida Air Dust Deputy" would still work. All power is from your vacuum - and I know the 'cyclone' seems to be lame - but believe me - it totally works.]
I bought something called a "Dustopper Pro" from one of the big box stores and slapped it on a home Depot bucket. I was actually shocked at how much it collected. I thought it would be pretty mediocre because the shape is so much different than the internet's beloved Dust Deputy type cyclones.
There's basically no dust in the shop vac itself except for the finest layer. The layer was as if it just sat in an abandoned attic and left open for a couple months and so a thin later of dust accumulated.
So combined with the filter I'm quite content with this level of dust collection. Now I just need to build a cabinet for get my tablesaw so it doesn't just dump dust on the floor.
Thank you for taking your time to comment with so much good information. Seriously, your comment answered the questions that led me to this video. The content of this video was definitely adjacent to the answers I needed, and it was a very well done video. That said, it was this comment that had exactly what I was looking for. Freakin' thank you @daves7775 . Everybody likes to say that anything you want to know is there with a few tippity taps, and that's mostly true. But, I've had many experiences searching the web for some information, or instructions, for pretty common use cases, where even after going through a lot of search results, something about my common use case would make it unique enough that even the mighty intarweb didn't have the answer. I was just about to call it a wrap on this particular intel effort and pause the project attached to it until I read your comment. Good shit man
The cost difference is OHSA, Health and Safety, insurance, etc. I know I'm late to the party here. You can put a fleece bag in a shop vac and get HEPA filtration, but it will NEVER be certified. For someone with employees, who has to comply with workplace safety and respiratory protection rules/laws, you have to have a dust extractor (read: Certified, read: expensive!, read: BIG MONEY to get independently certified to specific tech specs).
Also, if you're working with dangerous materials, it requires specific certification for that. I.e., more money for certification and technical compliance, such as auto shut off when full or clogged, etc.
Doesn't surprise me at all that a shop vac can match actual performance. But it will never meet regulatory compliance.
True but it's still nice that you have a cheaper alternative for independent people and people who just do it as a hobby.
I am just a hobbyist and I do not regret the Festool CT 26E dust extractor. Having variable suction power is important when you have a good sander. I use to have the DeWALT sander I had to stop every so often because of the fatigue from the vibration. I looked at both the Mirka and Festool sanders and went with the Festool. I did not like the paddle on top of the sander that was the power switch. Both were otherwise very similar in handling and comfort. Coupled with the Festool extractor, only a very small amount of dust was left on the piece that I was sanding. Having variable power comes in great here. You want to lower the power setting when sanding as you don't want the sander being sucked down when sanding as you going to be sanding the dust and pushing it into the wood, making more of a mess and less getting sucked away. I am not a fanboy of any brand. The best tool for the job. I have Makita, DeWALT, Ryobi, Bosch, Milwaukee and Festool. I don't like the price of the Festool products, but they are great tools.
I put two hoses together and put the vacuum outside
when I vacuum. It's quieter, less bulky in the shop
and gets all the particles out of the shop.
i worked for the post office in the early 2000's repairing mail sorting machines. These machinrs get shut down and cleaned every morning and go through some tests to make sure they are ready to sort mail. Sorning mail by machines creates a lot of very fine paper dust.
If you recall there was an idiot sending contaminated dust (ricen powder) through the mails that caused a lot of rethinking when it came to dust in the workplace. Beforehand the sorting machines were blown out every morning using compressed air and then the machines were vacuumes out to remove the dust. When I walk=ed into work at 2:30PM and there was so much dust that you could not clearly see things 500ft away (very large work floor).
The procedure changed after they found unsafe materials were being sent through the mails to congressmen and other officials. Compressed air was removed along with the air hoses. machines were vacuumed out with new HEPA vacs that cost over a grand each. The result was the air was clean when I came into work but this was because we were not using compressed air to blow down the machines not just because of the HEPA vacs. i suspect a good quality vac would have done a good job at 1/10th the cost but I'm sure the HEPA was better,
Not at 1/10th the cost. You can get hepa filters and bags for regular shopvacs.
What I surmised from this experiment is, the 3m is ridiculously overpriced for the marginal difference between it and the festool, the festool would be worth it for a professional shop or very successful side hustle based on the motor quality alone, and the Ridgid I use for everything from dust collection to cleaning my truck with will do an excellent job for a hobbyist. Great video and info as always pastor.
Basically! Thank you
eh... sort of. The 3M is priced that way because it has features for a professional auto-body shop that a woodworker doesn't care about. Specifically, it features automatic on/off for both electric and pneumatic tools. This is something even the Festool doesn't offer and is a big deal in professional auto shops where pneumatic tools are in common use.
You're 100% right that it's way too much for a hobbyist - because it's not meant for a hobbyist. Honestly if you're a hobbyist and want an upgrade from a shop vac to a dust extractor with HEPA filtration the Fein Dust Extractors are a much better deal. The Fein Turbo I was a huge upgrade for me from a cheap shop vac with HEPA filtration and auto on/off for about $350. A huge savings compared to the equivalent Festool which comes in at $600 - $800.
I use my Festool on my truck and garage floor too!
Really fantastic testing and analysis. I'm a longtime vacuum tech, and your approach to testing these machines is rare. I would love to see each vacuum in a sealed "clean container" like a Sterilite tub and see how much the particle counter rises as you pick up fine debris like sheetrock dust.
Awesome job. Thanks for this video!
Thank you very much! Good idea
Very nice video. I normally buy a new vacuum for the house and take the old house vacuum to the workshop. But the mini filters clogs up very fast during sanding. To stop and clean that filters, is the problem, I can literally see the dust in air, even if I clean it inside my dirt bin.
Point I want to make, I bought a Hazard L vacuum the other day, with an manual push button to clean filter, the issue I found during use... The air coming out of the machine, is almost 60 degree downwards. Blowing all the dust what was lying on the floor, into the air. The reason I'm saying 60 degrees, it is between 750 - 1000mm away from the vacuum.
Luckily I always keep my floor clean, but imagine you don't.... How much dust will be flying around in my little workshop. ...
Very interesting data/info you showed.
I agree with the conclusion... I have the Ridgid shopvac (and believe any homeowner should have one) and the Festool 36. I used the Ridgid for "dust collection" for about 15 years. I like the Festool much more. It's a lot quieter, has some great features, AND, on the Ridgid, I had to clean the filter almost daily. I think it's been at least a month since I cleaned the filter on my Festool (and I checked yesterday and it's still very clean).
Awesome! That little vac is so nice. Luxury. But nice.
Sound levels are one of the reasons Iwould consider a more expensive vacuum. I wonder if we did all of the vacs a diservice by not using the hose that came with the vac. The hose can make a huge differrence in perfotmance and I would expect that each vac would have hose designed for it's specific performance curve. I would think that hose is an integral part of each vacs overall system performance. Thanks for the video.
I'm very late to this conversation but I can tell you as a guy who JUST got a festool dust extractor (used.) and has always used a Rigid shop vac, that there is a major difference. The auto on and off is great by the way.
But the rigid doesn't seem to clear dust from the sander nearly as fast as the festool. For once my shop doesn't have fine dust drifting about. I think several factors contribute. The rigid seems to suffer a lot from the narrow opening that connects to the sander And the exhaust blows any loose dust around exacerbating the situation further. The festool has an adjustable suction that is very beneficial. It can be adjusted so the dust is cleared, but doesn't pull the sander harder into the sanded surface. Over a long period of sanding the rigid gets hot and will eventually stop. The festool doesn't seem to suffer, even sanding lots of drywall. Another massive benefit is the bags. I use a bag in the rigid because it helps the filters last. But, it still gets hot after a long day and may shut off. And pulling the bag out almost guarantees dust getting out. The festool bag can be full of dust so fine it feels like liquid, and it's very easy to isolate the mess still. Still, I'm not throwing out the rigid anytime soon. For reference, the festool was bought used for $150 (and included two festool sanders.) and is from 2011 I believe. The rigid was bought in January of 2024. I can't afford to drop a bunch of money on festool normally so I jumped at the price.
The approach I take to woodworking dust is:
1) I preference low dust tools a lot;
2) I have mobile elements to my workshop, and save a lot of dusty work for outside. This is tough in a winter climate where a lot of people want to do shop stuff in the winter and play during the summer.
3) I have a Racal helmet/3M and those things are life changing. However, if you do a lot of sanding in a cluttered shop all the time you are not wearing the helmet, you will be eating some dust. This is why 1) and 2). I also have a Shopvac with HEPA and bag, a dust extractor, and an air cleaner.
4) I recently bought a leaf blower for the yard, turns out it blows dust out of the shop like nothing else I have seen.
GREAT job as always Drew. I have a porter cable dust extractor that is tool activated and has a bag and HEPA filter. I have a similar extractor made by Fein and use both frequently, these are my sander extractors. I have 3 shop vacs with bags and filters set up for miter saws and router use , also tool activated. My dust collection system is a Jet 1.75 HP I think. The biggest thing I have done for my air quality is a ceiling mounted air filter. In fact I now have 2. Stubby Nubbs did a video on improving the function and I did that on my first one purchased a Jet. This ended up being a LOT of $. My next unit purchased a Wen for job site use originally is now also in my shop. I did all the same mods only using less expensive alternatives for the big cleanable filter. This would be an interesting test with your expensive ( divorce material ) meter. All I can tell you is when running them I have MUCH less surface dust on things in the shop than without using my “ Pretty darn good “ dust extracting set ups. Plus my heater ( Live in Northern Maine ) has a filter and I no longer ever have the clean the filter alarm go off. Without the air filter it did. I still use a dust mask on occasions but I feel OK not using one most of the time now.
I use my shop vac, which gets cleaned frequently, especially when sanding. I wear a mask and use a homemade box fan filter with a K&N filter for additional filtration. No fine dust in the morning on any flat surfaces. Works wonderfully for me. Thanks for the video.
I have an older Rigid model too and luckily my version does let me use dust bags. I use them and find they hold about 70-75% of the full reservoir without a bag. I love my Rigid --is super reliable and provides all of the suction I need. Plus the bag plus internal filter seems to do a great job keeping exhaust particulates out of the air.
4:30 is absolutely hysterical
Only in hindsight!
Always use dust bags on shop vacs unless using it for water.
Bags are cheaper than filters and will keep the air flow and filter performance better for longer.
Also the vacuum outblow port design changes a lot how the total dust gets.
I have a cheap one, works great but the outblow and motor cooling air flow blasts dust up from the floor behind it
I use the Oneida cyclone hooked up to a Ridgid shop vac. The shop vac does use a bag, which saves filters. Most of the dust is caught by the cyclone. I rarely have to change the bags in the shop vac. The limitation is the tool itself to which the hose is connected. The miter saw, as one would expect, is the worst. The router table and the table saw also produce quite a bit of random uncaptured dust. In order to mitigate the dust in the air, I built a mobile filter cart using a squirrel cage from a residential hvac system and standard hvac filters. That device captures a lot of dust. It is a fairly high cfm device. I also wear a 3M particle mask anytime I'm producing sawdust. For a hobby, garage-based woodworker, I feel fairly well protected.
I use the 3M sander and matching paper mated with a cheap shop-vac. The difference is that I have the vac mounted outside in a box with the exhaust port of the vac blowing out into the yard and the hose running through a hole in the wall. My shop is small (only 13 x 21) so I just have about 30' of hose attached to it coiled up under a bench. I find it works very well and you can barley hear it run! I actually keep my shop cleaner with this setup because I don't have to don ear protection every time I turn on the vac. Also, because a shop-vac does not move a high volume of air I don't notice it pulling much of the heat out of the shop in the winter (I am in Michigan). This was a great video! thank you for confirming my suspensions!
I just invested in my first HEPA vacuum for sanding as my 20 year old Craftsman hooked to my Makita orbital sander left the table white with sawdust after sanding a few wood panels. I decided to buy the new DeWalt Stealthsonic vacuum for $139 at Lowes. Using the same sander the table is almost dust free after sanding the same amount of panels. I'm not saying its the best, I am saying that it works for what I need.
fyi theoretically flow restriction from hose differences, filter cleanliness, etc has no effect on static pressure.
That's because there is no flow to develop a pressure drop across said restriction.
Presumably the fact that you did measure small differences was due to leakage, so that there still was some airflow.
Using the same house is a good idea, but it would also be good to compare it to the hose they came with.
I did. Didn’t film it. Differences were minor.
I’ve been watching more and more of your videos Drew and the information here is fantastic. I recently purchased one of those super quiet shopvacs from Dewalt. I think it’s called stealth sonic and I’m loving that and will probably use that for my sanding dust collection. I don’t think I’m ready for a dust extractor just yet, but I will look into an option for turning the machine on at the same time as the vacuum. Thanks for a great video.
Thanks bro! A good filter and that auto switch is 99% as good
I absolutely _love_ my quiet DeWalt. I spent the day I got it looking for stuff to vacuum just because I was so pleased with how quiet it is.
Great Video! While i haven't set it all up yet i plan to connect my shop vac with hepa bag in line with a small dust deputy cyclone and a system of central vac pipes to run the High pressure, low volume dust collection system in my shop. I intend to use it for general cleanup, a swing arm hose for handheld power tools and hooking to the dust port on my miter saw and a dust hood on the table saw. That is in addition to my 4" dust collection system, the air cleaners and masks!
Cool idea. Big fan of DD
This is pretty much the setup I have and it works great. Also added the Hepa filter.
Another great video / comparison. I was quite happy with my Ridgid vac with Hepa filter and bag upgrades using my 3M Extract sander…but I was getting nailed with static electricity here in Colorado at 7600ft. I even tried an “anti-static” hose. No joy. So I went with the Festool MIDI as it has the cloth coated anti static hose and is grounded. This is after contacting 3M and their tecs could not confirm anti static properties other than the rubber coated hose. Using a 3D printed hose adapter on the MIDI to the 3M sander made the system a pleasure to use now.
Good to know! I forgot to talk about the anti static hose. Dang it! You’re right…
you can add hepa to your shop vac an also a bluetooth button/outlet. or the outlets that lets you add the shop vac with a 3 sec delay. thats what i have. turning the tool on, turns the vac on. with the bucket cyclone to make the hepa bag last longer
I found the Ridgid vacuums to be quite noisy and so so built. I switched to Dewalt "cheap" vacs: better wheels, quieter, better switch, washable filter, and just better design and construction all round (I recommend upgrading the hose though). At work, I do use the Festool Midi which is great.
Thanks for taking the time to do these test it would have been brutal. But my favourite part was I trust it because it has Pro in front of it that was priceless
I work underground in a coalminer as a mine foreman. Air quality is very important and use an anemometer hourly. I can tell you with certainty than the best way to move dust from the atmosphere is with more volume and less velocity, to remove gas it is better to have a higher velocity.
Fascinating. Thank you!
How do you change the amount of suction with a shop vac? That's the feature that separates a dust extractor from a shop vac since it lets you ensure you're not just adhering your sander to the surface of the workpiece.
Seems like a good place to leave this story. There was once a person who needed to do some drywall work and used an electric sander. Soon that person couldnt see across the room and realized his error. That room took months to get back to a clean (breathable ) state. That room was the master bedroom.
I got my xtract extractor for $950 shipped. If the price has jumped that much, I thank my good fortune. I probably would not be a buyer at $1400, but not because it isn't worth it. I love it. It is permanantly paired with my xtract sander. The only better sanding experience might be SurfPrep. My Bosch miter saw is permanently paired with a Bosch VAC090AH extractor which I think I got for around $700 shipped. I like integrated solutions and I don't like disintegrating them for other uses. The Bosch has a thumper to shake the filter which helps a lot. The rest of my shop is on a central unit. I have a Fein Turbo II relegated to "shop vac" duty. It is in the garage for household tasks and the like. I don't know better value when you step up to HEPA compliance. $400 get's you there with a superior unit to everything else at that price point. It just still isn't the Bosch, Festool, or 3M. I have never owned or used the Festool, but trust your results. If I were looking for a shop vac, or HEPA wasn't important, it would be the Fein Turbo I. You can't get a better shop vac at the price point in my opinion.
1 minute in, and I'm literally saying to myself - "Finally!" Thankyou so much Wittworks, you're a star! 🙂This is something I've been hoping someone with the right resources would do, ever since I went down the dust extraction rabbit hole.
Thank you for such a well produced vid. The problem with wood dust, hard woods being the most dangerous, is that all the dust below 0.5microns will remain suspended in the air for 24 hours. These are the bad guys and will be disturbed again with airflow and movement.
A hanging dust extractor is the only option, which is left on over night, after you've cleaned up with the shop vac. They can filter the air over night, are quiet, and low power, and hang above head height. Your air quality testing was well intended, but I believe a complete waste of time and distracted from the main focus; was a cheap shop vac good enough to do the job of a more expensive one?
I would definitely be interested in seeing the difference in dust control between the Extract ROS and paper vs. a Makita/DeWalt/Ryobi ROS with like… Gator paper. Maybe even change it up and use the Gator paper with the Extract sander and the Extract paper with the “Big 3” sander.
I’m also curious about the effect that a cyclonic-style dust separator has on the shop vac performance. I have a sneaking suspicion that a decent shop vac with a cyclonic separator with the Extract paper and a halfway decent ROS would come very close to something like a full-out Festool setup, for a fraction of the price.
Thanks for going through all of this to share health & safety info for all of us. Your boldness is saving some of our marriages and lives. Probably in the order
I'm definitely not fan girling out... But I think you're my favorite TH-camr. That damn marking knife story... Great tests, much more intelligent than I. Thank you for taking the time to be legit. You have the highest quality channel with the least subscribers of any I've seen. Meaning you'll have over a 100k soon.
I have not had trouble with sawdust but I would say that drywall dust and concrete dust will most certainly kill the motor bearings in a shop-vacc. in high volume.
There’s an issue of being appropriate to the intended use of a vacuum.
I *invested* in the high end Festool CT 36 E with the CT-VA 20 to separate out the chunky stuff encountered in remodeling. Yeah, it was really expensive.
The Festool extractor is a fine tool for dust when attached to something like a sander. In remodeling old houses there’s toxic materials so I felt good about the investment.
But, the small hose easily gets clogged when vacuuming up the chunky crap we see in remodeling deteriorating old houses. It doesn’t have the high CFM that I needed either.
So, I’m now looking for a cheap shop vac for remodeling that has the bigger 2-1/2” hose and higher CFM. It’s either the Harbor Freight biggest Bauer shop vac or the rigid at Home Depot for the chunky remodeling vac while the Festool deluxe dust extractor is dedicated to sanding. The right tool for the right job!
Oh you know what you'll get a kick out of? You know what works really well for sucking up ultrafine drywall dust? My Dyson v11 outsize on boost mode. As long as you don't hold it upside down, virtually none of it gets through to the filter. After going through several months of renovation, all I've ever had to do is just tap the filter against a tree whenever I've used it upside down. It's absolutely wild. Not a contractor vacuum at all. I'm considering buying a used cinetic model to use for this kind of stuff in the future!
I appreciate your discussion of the subject at the end. Most youtubers would have cut the video at the 20 minute mark. Nicely done.
I dont even remember what I said, but glad it helped
My shop vac has a bag and the filter has a “sock” used on pools, would be interesting to see if this setup is better. I never have to replace my HEPA filter since I use a bag and the sock.
I like the sock idea! 🧦 💡
You talked about this. Long lasting reliability. I've had two 6.5HP Ridgid shop vacs die on me. I bought a third one but I made a new Thien baffle and this one has a small door that I could slide open on the top when I'm using the thinner hose for my sander. This door reduces the pressure a bit so that the shop vac isn't as stressed. I think this has made a difference in 'lastability' and it still does an okay job of getting most of the dust but a mask is still needed.
I am so glad you hit on the enjoyment factor tools might give you. I enjoy your content it is very fun to watch and I wish you much success , thank you.
thank you
There’s a problem with your anemometer testing that is consistent across all YT extractor tests. Atmospheric pressure fills a vacuum from all directions and is acting against the exposed back area of the anemometer, countering it’s rotation and adding turbulence to the airflow. These effects will both increase with the rate of airflow/pressure differential. You should 3D print an adapter that encloses the back of the anemometer, or cut up a funnel, so that air can only enter through the front.
That said, well done! I do enjoy the content and delivery.
The U-tube manometer is old school but it is as accurate as the ruler. BUT this rig stops the flow of air through the machine (with the exception of suction leakage). The condition of filter or fill in the bag won't have any impact. Without flow there is no pressure drop through the filter. A better (but much more difficult test) would be to measure suction static at varying flow rates.
These are the resolute I expect based on years of experience with my “orange” vacuums.
I always use bags. Makes the vac last for years! Using them on construction sites they last about 8 years.
They are excessively noisy.
I'm not going to lie, there was a point where the number crunching made my eyes glaze over. I even started to second guess my "evil green" dust collector. But then I remembered how much I like knowing it mates up perfectly to the other Festool tools in my shop. So I have to agree with your summary. As a hobby level woodworker who occasionally makes a few bucks, I didn't need that level of tool, but is sure makes life in my shop more enjoyable.
Thank you
you're not gonna lie? do you normally lie?
I think this proves the sanding tool is integral to successful dust extraction. I’ve used both cheap and high end extractors. The high end units are just nicer, quieter, and like it was said- more enjoyable to use.
I actually picked up a Bauer shop vac a month or two ago, and here at the beginning I'd say it's only a little bit louder than any dust extractors I've used. Not sure if that will last forever as I'm sure the motor has cheaper parts that will shift/loosen break faster, but these results make me feel great about my purchase!
(1) OSHA is not the boss of us (small businesses dealing in just INTRAstate commerce). We are not dealing in INTERstate commerce, so are not subject to their jurisdiction.
(2) If you want to change the game hugely, with any of your vacs, incorporate a Dust Deputy [DD]. I have three and it is for good reason that I do. They, each, add a lot of run time, before I have to clean the filters. Using a DD does come at a slight cost in loss of suction.
(3) Good dust collection at the sander does not just make for safer sanding, it adds life to your sand paper and disks. Removing the dust, as it's generated, reduces loading of the paper. That is why those of us who do a lot of sanding spend more on disks like those sold by Festool or Mirca.
(4) My vacuums are limited in how much I can control the suction by the jury rigged system I use, which is similar to what common household vacuums use - an intake port that can be adjusted by making the intake larger or smaller.
The only purpose of the adjustable intake port is to control how hard the sander is pulled down against flat stock, which, "it is said," can affect dust collection AND affects how well the random orbit spins. However, when sanding things and having the disc over the piece and in thin air, more suction is preferred, to better catch what is thrown off.
(5) The BEST thing I ever did to solve sanding problems was, build a sanding table connected to one of my dust collectors, AND add sides, a back and a top, so all the air has to be drawn from where I am working.
I am limited in the size of things I can sand in the sanding station, but about 80%, or more of what I do can be. Even using a Foredom and an aggressive carbide bit, I can watch the dust being thrown off, then a few inches in, do a 90 down into the table.
Using this in combination with an extractor makes for a very pleasant sanding experience.
I don't know what kind of mask you're using there at 6:29 and again near the end. I use P100 mask with replaceable filters and which makes a good seal where it sits on the face. I love it, and I don't smell any sawdust until _after_ I take it off just outside the shop door.
On-the-cheap: (approx $30.00)
I put a high quality 20 x 20 in filter in back of my 20 x 20 in "Big Box" , box fan. My particle counter has shown that this very inexpensive set up, does quite well at removing pm 2.5 particles.
So there's a semi counterintuitive explanation for why the semi full shop vac filtered better. As the filter was slightly more clogged it actually let less particulate matter through the filter, but it was also making the vacuum work harder and less efficiently. This would make the filter more effective over time but would eventually burn up the motor if you never cleaned it. Actually it would probably kill enough pressure that it wasn't sucking up particulate matter well first too. But it would definitely not be good for the life of the motor.
One thing you didn’t hit on in the video which is super important is noise levels. I’ve found my relatively quiet Festool dust extractor is WAY less fatiguing to be around than my old shop vac due to the noise level and frequencies (even with OSHA-compliant ear protection). It’s worth the money to me for that reason alone.
I've watched a couple of your vids now that have gone by and your channel REALLY deserves a like and a subscribe....
Nicely done.
Thankyou.
If I did a lot of sanding and was worried about dust to the point of a $1500 shop vac --- then it seems like a cheaper and more effective approach would be to have whatever vac, a sawdust separator - and the final exhaust from the vacuum system being ported to outside the shop. Then minor differences in fine particles in the exhaust wouldn't really matter.
@14:30 LOLOLOL. that was awesome. And it was a very thorough test test. For a second, I thought Mathias was collab'ing with you! And @18:30 I was about to type that the 3M sander and xtrack/cubitron? was efficient enough that the vacuum wasn't the limiting factor. I don't know how loud the 3M/Festool is, but that RIGID vacuum is loud as hell. So that's another risk factor. As someone with hearing loss (did stupid things in the Army) loudness matters too. I use the Quiet DeWalt vacuum, Fein vacuum (both with filter bags) and it works great. The DeWalt goes to the bottom of the SawStop and the Fein goes to the top guard/dust-hood. Works really well.
Great video! I bought a Ridgid vacuum and Cen-Tec hose based on your other videos about dust collection. Only thing I would change is how loud the Ridgid vac is.
Awesome! It is noticeably louder for sure. I usually use the Festool on low. It sucks as much as the shop vac and is quiet at that speed
Get a dewalt stealthsonic 12 gallon, things like 62 dB
I would've kept my good hose had my old shop vac died instead of going to my Nan lmao, although all I do is mostly light demolition and vacuuming gravel out of shitbox trucks anyway
Well, for sanders, I think most people even turn down the dust extraction strength at least on Festool / Festool combo anyway so all that extra suction is not necessary there. In other applications, though (e.g. saws, routers, etc) its very handy. So the choice of tool could well be impacting testing results (like you said, once you reach the minimum threshold it's good enough, maybe). And of course, the creature comforts (bluetooth remote, bluetooth battery operation for the cordless saw, etc) can't be beat.
You are supposed to put suction power to minimum when sanding. Thats why particle tests were similiar in all vacs cause everyone had maximum power?
The biggest reason to hook a vacuum of any kind to your tools is to keep the shop clean. If you are worried about fine particulates in the air that normal vacuums may not remove, get a respirator and/or get a longer hose and put the vacuum outside of your shop. Save your money for more or better tools.
love the video! had a Rigid Shop vac starting out as a diy woodworker, looking to upgrade but i guess ill buy another rigid! The video was very informative, thank you!
For a non-engineer, I think you did a great job on this project. Trust me... I'm an engineer.
Thanks for not killing me! Had some good friends helping! That’s about as good as this artist can do
I'm Batman, trust me. 😅
The king here is an engineer, free some space
Trust me bro, I am a Systems Engineer & Cloud DevOps Engineer. 😂
@@joe_ferreira probably
My cyclone dust collector made out of a couple of home depot 5 gal buckets and various PVC and 3D printed bits works surprisingly well with my cheap ridgid vac. I only use the (antique at this point) table saw for a couple of cuts a few times a year, so it is fine for my purposes.
My vacuum system is made up of two different shop vac, (and old rigid and a Shopvac), and I added a dust deputy on each one all housed in carts with a baffle system to knock down the noise. They work pretty well. I also have an overhead Jet air cleaner. Been using this system for years now I have been really happy with it. I agree in a professional shop a higher end dust collection system is warranted, but for my shop what I have does great. Thanks for the video and the work.
I can’t see if anyone has done this, but do you think you could make an equivalent to the Festool cyclone by putting a dust deputy in one systainer, and use a large systainer as a collector underneath it for collection? Then you could stack on top which can’t be done with an Oneida.
Let your better half know that we are grateful she lets you go over budget to make these great videos.❤
now I am interested in how the shop vac performs with a dust deputy vs with out :)
How do you only have 50k subs? Your content is fantastic. Humor is on point and editing well honed
I have a festool ct mini. Its a great little dust extractor. I just wish the extractor was bigger, and had the hepa cleaner function, as well as the bluetooth option. But for what it is, its p good with most of my tools.
Let me put you on par with what I believe to be relevant to this whole issue. I generally love your videos for the entertaining content and also for the cinematic lighting ;-)
This one leaves some things to be desired, though, or at least to be clarified. Also note that I stopped to write this comment at 20:36
The difference in different shop vacs/extractors lies within federal regulations and the compliance thereof. Usually, when deepdiving into these subjects, I find that federal regulations and laws are usually pretty similar on an international level, so I'll just apply what I know from the German Trade Association to whatever regulations may apply to your area.
There are three different types of dust extractors. Class "M" (Medium), Class "L" (Large) and Class "H" (Hazardous).
Class "M" and "L" both generally use the same extracting methods, difference being that "M" class extractors comply with a wide array of regulations, such as auditive indications of whether or not the dust bag is full or the filter is dirty. The autoclean function is also something that complies with these regulations, actively avoiding a clogged up hepa filter. Class "L" doesn't have these technical intricacies, hence being priced a lot cheaper; downside being that they are restricted from professional use (in a business environment) if you have either employees or customers within the estate in which you practice your trade.
Class "H" takes the whole compliance issues way further and incorporates the legal use of these extractors for extraction of hazardous materials, such as asbestos.
As you stated, a "shop vac" is merely a shop vac, nothing more and nothing less. It is meant for clearing out the roughest dust from within your workshop, but doesn't guarantee the extraction of any health hazardous particles.
Typically a shop vac would extract something around 80% of generally "bad" particles/dust, while professional class "L" or "M"extractors, like the Festool, suck up around 99% of particles. Moving to the class "H" they remove something around 99.9%, whereas the last 0.9% only make up for things like the asbestos particles.
So to conclude: Is it worth getting a 1300 USD dust extractor?
It depends.
If you're a woodworker, there's generally no need for a class "H" extractor. If you have employees or customers within your workspace, you will NEED a class "M" extractor. But if you're by yourself, there's no need to get anything "better" than a class "L" extractor.
All that is referring to the use of these extractors in a business environment, mind you.
If you're woodworking in private in your garage by yourself, do whatever you deem necessary, although I would advise getting at least a class "L", rather than only working with a shop vac. Your health will thank you in the long run.
One last thing to keep in mind, is that these portable extractors are meant to extract dust from hand tools, such as track saws, sanders and such. They are not meant to extract larger chips/shavings/particles which are usually emitted by planers, thicknessers or even table saws. For those you would need a stationary extraction device, as you mentioned before with the whole High Pressure/Low Volume vs. Low Pressure/High Volume issue.
In the end, make sure to check with your local/federal trade association to comply with their laws, regulations, requirements and necessities. These are typically not arbitrary, but are there for a reason. That reason being to ensure the health and safety of the people around you.
Just my 2 cents.
I hope this was usefull, should you have any further questions, feel free to hit me up.
I've noticed, after a year with my Festool 36, that my shop stays cleaner. When I was using a Ridgid shop vac, which I have 3 dispersed around the house, I noticed the next day that there was a fine layer of dust on most surfaces. While not anywhere near a scientific study, that sold me.
Engineer here…nice work!!!
WHAT?! Thank you. From the Artist.
Had my shop vac blow out from sanding. Just couldn't handle the long run times. Upgraded to the festool CT 15 same engine as the midi with just a 4 gallon collection and no fancy static hose .. but for 400 bucks it's an amazing deal for HEPA filtration and does a great job
There is no difference in ability to pick up the dust particles from the job site between any decent shop vac and any glorified dust extraction system like this Festool or that 3M, because they are essentially same shop vacs with bells and whistles. The difference between them is a quality of filtration system. So, you would had to do is to screw all commenters from pervious video and measure PPM near the vacs, not on the job site.
Now, if you care about ability to COLLECT as much dust at job sire as possible, then you need to explore proper dust collection systems that move large volumes of air with large hose diameters, large hoods, because it doesn't take too much pressure to pick small unhealthiest particles, but large volumes of air.
Conclusion: if you have a small hand tool with small duct port, any decent shop vac would pick up as much as possible from the job site, no need to pay more if this is your only concern. If you're concerned about filtration quality - you need to compare, test and measure. Technically the higher quality of filters, the better exhaust air quality is.
I really enjoyed this video, and a few of your other videos, which I discovered today. However, the section on 'Dynamic Pressure Tests', beginning at 10:18, incorrectly explains what is happening. A woodworker would want to measure the BIGGEST drop possible from the static pressure tests. A low 'dynamic pressure' reading means that there is lots of air moving easily through the tool, which will help collect a lot of dust. The higher the 'dynamic pressure' reading, the less air is moving through the tool and the vacuum hose, and therefore, the less dust the extractor is actually capable of sucking up. What you measured in this part of the video is simply the airflow restriction imposed by the tool and vacuum hose, compared to the zero airflow static pressure, measured earlier. A well-designed tool causes as little airflow restriction as possible, and therefore would show lower 'dynamic pressure' readings than a tool that restricts the airflow more.
I bought my festool after burning up 3 ridgids. 2 of them in a year. Ridgid covered them with their warranty but its still aggravating. I enjoy using the festool and on the few jobs ive done its much easier to transport. The BT control is a cool festure as well.
There is another test missing: what happens when you link 2 Ridgid vacuums on the same tube? Electric consumption was never taken in account, so it might make a difference so 2 Ridgid could replace a Festool for a 10th of the price?
Another be factor is noise, shop vacs are unbearably loud. The extractors tend to be exponentially quieter (ha ha see what I did there sound is measured on a log scale, not linear) but seriously they are way louder.
I did do audio tests using the “db” app on the iPhone. So, grain of salt…
I ended up cutting it out of the video because it felt like a narrative departure. I measured 3’ from the front, back, left, and right at a height of 5’ (roughly my ears).
Here’s the data:
If you take the average, the Festool CT Midi is most quiet at 77.25 dBA followed by the 3M Xtract at 80.5 dBA. The Ridgid Shop vac was the loudest at 83 dBA, except for when the self cleaning function on the 3M turns on - that’s the loudest at 85 dBA.
To my ears the Festool is noticeably quieter.
- (front, right, rear, left)
- Festool CT MIDI: 78, 78, 75, 78
- Average: 77.25 dBA
- 3M Xtract: 80, 80, 81, 81
- Average: 80.5 dBA
- When I turn on the auto filter clean feature, it measured 85 dB from the front.
- Ridgid Shop Vac with exhaust port diffuser: 84, 83, 82, 83
- Average: 83 dBA
Since I do vac baggin, I have a simple auto shop vac gauge. Works for me.
Far and away the biggest creature comfort of the dust extractors over the shopvac is DECIBELS. Specifically, the substantial reduction.
very true
The point of the expensive units with HEPA is to shield employers from liability by not putting dust out of the exhaust and contaminating the work area. The Hilti vacuum that "knocks" the filter to clear the filter are great despite their price.
hey drew, I can confirm that a shop vac has a limited lifetime being used as an extractor for orbital sanding. I burnt up a shop vac (2years old) after about 2 months of heavy wodworking use mainly on the orbital. I suspect the restriction in flow, is actually what caused the failure. I can also confirm that for finer dust, the shop vac will drastically reduce performance and will require multiple filter cleanings, every few hours (depending how fine).
One test, I was hoping that you would try, would be opening an additional small (maybe 1") port while using the shop vac to help increase cfm through the system and measure suction then. Or, ditch the 1" hose and utilize the shop vac directly to the sander. I think these small tweaks on the shop vac system, could really help performance and suction, or at least put it closer to the dust collector range (if that even matters, which I'm still thinking about in my head). THis would also improve longevity of the shop vac motor/reduce heat buildup.
Great information, and great video. See you on the next one. cheers
are you using the shop vac directly to the orbital sander? that's a nono, use a cyclone separator with a bag extension (correct me if you already did that, the purpose of the cyclone is to extend the life of the shop vac filter)
I maintained the filter, had a cyclone, and when it did actually die. i immediately checked the filter, and it wasnt blinded. I just think the hose sizing and CFM limitations from the small port and hose, added alot of load to the shopvac.@@canobenitez
Thank you for this very informative video. I wonder if dust extractors use more electrical power than a shop vac?
My understanding is that many drywall contractors look for cheap used shop vacs and throw them away when the motor breaks. They are too small to have to deal with OSHA, and pennies matter when doing competitive bidding. I saw a house with several shop vacs in the garage after the drywall work was done on a house. Maybe autoclean would work and save money
Would be interested in this test with a Ridgid vac that accepts a hepa filter and bag. I've used that type of system while sanding skim coated drywall with great results, but it'd be nice to have objective numbers to see
Great video & information. This gives me the idea of hooking my shop vac to a longer hose with a trash bin as the container outside.
I remember watching a video years ago when a supposed NASA filtration engineer said with 100% confidence to stop buying filters for RIGID vacs etc and to just wrap the cage where the filter installs with basic paper towel. This was years ago but I believe he went into the science and micron pass through of paper towel vs air filters etc.
I’m curious to what results your setup would produce. Would be a long term subscriber if this had a possibility of happening. ✌️
The key issue you didn't consider is years of use. We old guys can tell you two things. As you age you get more sensitive and probably need more filtering. Also, years and years of even only occasional hobby use...well it builds up... Take it from this 75 year old. I built my own filter for my shop. But it is only OK and I have the festool on my list. Especially for home decorating as well as shop...where I need to do some dry wall sanding... And also... thanks for all your effort, which I appreciate. I expect many others do too.
Nice work bruv! Thank you for creating this content and sharing.
I think you're on to something with the sandpaper. I have a similar Ridgid shop vac, although the larger version, paired with a Duststopper cyclone. When I switched to the 3M sandpaper, there was a noticeable difference in the air quality in the shop. It's simply incredible how much more dust it collects and also provides a better finish.
I have a 6 gallon Ridgid wet/dry for 20 years. It works perfect to this day. HomeDepot carries all the equipment.
Im in north Texas and my shop has no ac at all so I feel ya
ITS SOOOO HOT 🥵
It was 108 that week and I gave up!
Up in Wichita falls erea average has been 105 and since my shop is non Insulated and only made of tin and like I said no climate control at all I don't go out there until it gets dark and still over 90