SIPS vs Stick Framing - Are SIPs Worth It?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
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I thought the million dollar question was when are you going to finish the house?
As in cladding the outside to protect the sips?
I suspect you need to get the sips covered or you're going to have structural degradation...
Probably not after exposing the OSB panel to the external environment for a year.
Uh, it usually gets siding and shingles on it
Less Talk ,More Work. Install your siding package asap. The sips are degrading every day.
They need to be covered with a wrb and rain-screen and siding in that order.
If you choose to postpone this any longer you sips will fail structuraly. and all will be lost.
Long time subscriber, who happens to be a builder.
Dusty Board but I thought the commenters are just keyboard warriors who don’t know anything?!?!?
That OSB needs protection ASAP!
I'm happy you're happy, but after watching this series, there is zero chance I'll be using SIPs in the future.
they are great on timber frame homes.
@@williamvanderven4672 You don't need a timber frame to use sips. they are structurally stronger than a stick built house
When are you going to start drywalling?
They need to run the electrical, switches, outlets, etc. through the chases first before they can put up the drywall.
Don’t ever ask this guy what time it is. He’ll tell you how to build a clock, why you should build it his way cause everybody else didn’t think it through properly, where he got all the parts, and how they could be better and by the time you wake up...it’s too late to get to where you were going!
What kind of siding are you going to do ? And when ?
Thx
talks to much ...lol
my only question is when are you going to side the house?
When they are ready.
chrisrhudy2000 When it’s to late
Addressing this question at this stage of the build is premature. Try again after wiring installation is complete (something tells me it's way easier said than done). Same goes for exterior siding and trim/interior drywall and trim. On paper, sounds like a breeze. Let's just see if Jesse sings the same tune when house walls are finished.
And the Plumbing oh the plumbing and ventilation hvac
Siding and interior finishes are no different than conventional framing.
As an architect, I only recommend sips for clients that have a tight deadline, a big wallet, and a simple idea for their home.
I have helped many Architects with SIPs. I build from simple to crazy house designs. When my crew of 3 put up a house in a week compared to the 5 man crew that has yet to dry in in 2 months the savings is in the schedule.
I guess you can't say that SIPs lead to a quick house build?
Not true. I've seen crews have these done in four months with timber frame. Key word "crew"
@@williamvanderven4672 My ''crew' of myself and one other guy framed my house with sips walls and roof (no timber frame) in three weeks. I keep seeing everyone here say that you need a structural frame to use sips. That is absolutely not true.
Less talk!!
Jesse forgets that with SIPS, If there is a (thermally conductive) fixing penetrating the sip from outer to inner skin (long screws) these do become thermal bridges. Of course it is a lower percentage of the total wall area than the studs, in a conventional wall. Generally fixings are usually steel, which has and R value of 0.0031 per inch (very low insulation, ie very high conduction)... Thermally "breaking" the cladding and frame/wall construction (no single fixing penetrates all the way through the wall from cladding to inner lining) can reduce the conduction of direct solar thermal radiation (or ambient convection) in summer time.
For winter heat losses, adding additional bulk insulation (with adhesive not steel screws) on the inner wall lining to limit losses into the wall and cladding system will result in a very efficient structure.
Other configurations of stud frames - ie, staggered studs, double wall, or insulated studs / I-beam studs, can provide overall high insulative values without "needing" to use sips.
Not worth it....timber frame is beautiful and the cold roof is an excellent idea. But those sips have made the construction of your home way more difficult than it had to be.
The cold roof isn't necessary on a performing SIPs roof in Cold Climates, and the Sips should have bearing on the deck but they built the timber frame to the edge as a mistake. I don't build SIPs like this and don't have these issues.
Im from germany. Im carpentermaster. Build 50 houses. I have a house with 52cm wall. Tji joist 356mm osb 8cm instalation area inside than osb and fermacell. Outside 4cm wooden plate and 2cm putz. All is insulated with cellulose. So U = 0.087 w/hk . A passive house.
please convert your metric for us! WE are too lazy to do it! So i wont even read your paragraph...
@@metalrooves3651 HA HA HA so true
we don't use that bonepartist measurement system over here jerry
No, SIPs are not worth it. The material and installation cost and ongoing construction impositions offset slight benefits. Of course if cost is not an issue, go for it. I've designed and built SIP and ICF buildings and I have no horse in this race. Spray foam and rigid insulation on the outside of a framed wall can stop infiltration and improve insulation.
Agreed, not worth the troubles for what is gained
lotta hot air?????
It would help to seal up where you can see the sun shining through from outside...
Sell the plane finish the house
There again too much talk.
There again, too much comment.
Let me guess you wanted just a yes or no answer! Get back on the short bus...
I now watch the video with the sound turned off
I have nightmares about all those screws.............
Is that foam between the plywood in the SIPs flammable? If so, a home fire would be gnarly.
Just as flammable as those white disposable plastic dishes, cups (polystyrene). It also starts to deform from as little as 80°C.
No. I do love the post and beam but not the sips.
SIPs should never be installed off the deck, the Timberframe should have been 9" inside the edge of the deck. This is a horrible example of SIPs. Sorry.
What about off gassing I know with some spray forms there is a considerable debate going on as to wether or not it's bad for your and if so how bad what do you think
Don't enjoy the informational vids. Build something already!
When will you finish the outside wall covering?
That's my question as well as OSB loves to absorb water
Did you not watch the video? Not to mention he has said a million times when the electric is run, and foamed in. Videos like today and yesterday are months old.
They aren’t worth 42 minutes of my time
The difference in a 1 week dry in vs a 4-5week dry in is huge when you consider WORTH.
It appeared to me that you installed just about as many studs connecting the ships together in some areas as a normal stick built house. I don't know why people get hung up on wall construction. Most of the heat loss in residential homes is through the doors and windows.
If you look at EICC 2018 Energy Codes you will see why the Roof R Values are much higher than walls, simply put heat rises. Yes doors and windows are your weakest link only after airtightness.
How a about fire hazard ?? The EXP is a BIG fire hazard !!
Look at the high rise house in London..........
The EPS foam is treated with fire retardant - with 1/2” Sheetrock they are rated as a 45 minute fire resistant structure.
Wow your really behind in videos
See if any of the local HVAC people are familiar with geothermal heating and cooling. Using radiant floor heating (or cooling) like you are, you're already partially set up for it. I remember that you hit water a LOT shallower than you expected for your well, that same aquifer could be used for geothermal heating and cooling, not that you need a lot of cooling obviously!
Your indoor humidity is on the high end at 60%. Expected with a tighter home, and needs a mechanical solution.
Here is something you have never brought up...what are you doing for air exchange? ALL SIP homes require "makeup air" to be brought in. Matter of fact, all modern built homes require it. Because of how "tight" homes are built now your furnace requires "makeup air" to be brought in. I don't think you have ever gotten into that discussion.
Also, I get it...most do...but you are now in the land of diminishing returns. Similar to putting R60 insulation in a ceiling vs. just R40. The cost is BIG to go between R40 to R60, so big matter of fact, that it would take me about 25 years to hit break even on the cost hit. I was better off putting in a super high efficient furnace, water heater, and A/C unit. I saved more money on heating/cooling in 2 years to recoup the costs. I base this off of the house 3 doors down from me that didn't do this and is the exact same design, and we kept notes between us on temps we kept our homes at. The owner of that other home was pretty angry that he decided to "save" money by not doing what we did with the HVAC system.
I've lived in an earth covered home (where you had to mow the roof). Fifty degrees even without running the heat in Michigan winter.
Picture please!
You need to go back and look at your numbers over the last year and see the type of videos that got the most views. Your rating is slipping way off.
Will you ever in your life time save the money you spent on sip vs conventional build pratice My answer is no 200 elect bill vs 200% added construction cost NO WAY
Try 10% additional framing cost - I built a SIPS house 28 years ago without most of the issues experienced by this nit wit. Don’t judge SIPS construction by this one experience.
@@joerampey237 Well said
How did you come up with the funds to do your own home build? Win the Lottery, Secure a Loan, Or receive a windfall from somewhere? Just wondering as all those supplies and materials do not come cheap these days.
No, ICF all the way.
That's what I'm thinking of as well, _MAYBE_ use SIPS for the roof. But wall would be ICF with the electrical in conduits INSIDE the cement.
John Doe in all my years I’ve never seen conduit inside the walls. You’ll hurt the structural integrity of the concrete. Rebar only. Just cut the foam like Jesse does on the inside and install there. Once done spray foam the line runs shut. My ICF’s are 2 5/8” thick vs his 2” so it’s easier.
Cc OoFeR gAnG you wouldn’t. Manufacturers only recommend 10’ pours at a time so you’d need multiple pours on this house.
Coming from an HVAC engineer I'm not sure what site that was that you were using but those calculations seem very far off. For a 3,600sqft house you are usually looking at closer to a 5-6 tons, not 10. Still pretty crazy that u managed to keep the house warm with 2 tons tho!!
Jesse, on your list of house envelope white board, you completely skipped fasteners. They are a considerable portion of your envelope energy considerations.
That is one efficient shack!
I still don’t get why it took so many screws to attach the sips to the frame
I could explain the physics behind it but its probably over your head...so simple answer, its an engineering requirement.
Jedidiah I’d like to here your explanation of the physics behind it. I’m sure it’s not over my head.
SIPS = Structural Insulated Panels. Death to acronyms!
SIPS look like a great idea thermally however not sure long term relating to long-term degredatation of materials? overall a wonderful idea and using modern materials for positive thermal results!
Same building materials just a different construction method....Sips are not new, I built my first SIP with my Father over 40 yrs ago....There are Military installations built with SIPs in the 1930's....
kind of on the same thoughts as Duane Miller below, I am retired from the GC business after 36 yrs and about 14 yrs ago I helped a friend build a sip house and we found it much better to simply fur out all the sips on the main floor and run all the wireing in that cahnael between the drywall and the surface of the sips we had done the main building almost identical to yours, leaving the space between the face of the sip and the post frame actualy worked out as when we did his we put some 1/2 plywood blocks in to represent where the drywall would have been and tightend the building up and foamed everything then fured all the walls of the main floor between the posts and drywalled on top of them, this left us with all those furred cavities to chase wires and water lines he was a techy type and he had about eight million wires so it worked out really nice finishing the drywall looked like it would be tough but we put strips of mylar or acitate up over the posts were there would be drywall finishing done as to prevent drywall compound all in the grain and used Jbead on all edges of the drywall and it turned out beautiful. Cheers
Mold? Jesse, at around 37:25, I'm looking over your shoulder at the loft decking and joists... Is thjat mold or dirt? Really concerned with a little one. Moisture buildup in SIPs can be a problem...
Temp floor
True - I’ve lived in a SIPS house for 28 years - I did have to put in a heat exchanger/ventilation system to reduce humidity and indoor air pollution.
@@joerampey237 All air tight homes require HVAC....
I love sips. My grandmother use to stock orange sips in her refrigerator.
dkjphills79 loved those ice tea sips
I would love to see a blower door test results.
This particular gentleman is using a SIP that utilizes an EPS core ( expanded polystyrene) like a Styrofoam cooler. Check out the SIP panels made with a polyurethane foam core. A world of difference in thermal efficiency. Check out Thermocore SIP specs and construction.
T studs, they the bomb.
I applaud how adventurous you 2 have been in choosing your building techniques. You have done many things that i would have never tried as an owner builder. That being said, i do prefer stick building. It is easier, cheaper, and makes more sense to me. But i do love watching you guys and your build. I think you have done a great job!
Here in Europe stick frame is not your standard build. That is only true for US per my knowledge.
In Scandinavia most buildings up to 3 floors are stick frame. Also pretty wide-spread in Switzerland.
something you forgot to say is you have radiant heat but not hooked up yet
He did mention that.
@@williamvanderven4672 I know . he restated it after I said that
I noticed that you could not see the thermal breaks caused by the 2 by 8s you used between the SIPs, in the thermal imaging Makes me think that with stick framing, its the number of thermal breaks vs, the thermal breaks themselves. With SIPs you have less thermal breaks, Makes me wonder, if I built a stick frame with 2 by 8s as studs, put the same kind of foam between them, and then used 1 inch foam panels under the siding, would I be able to produce the same result?
What frustrates me is there are no apples to apples comparisons between these different types of construction.
I really appreciate you for all the information in this video!
the more the space on the top- plate, then you need a header... of course a 2x8 can support more weight so spacing could be 36'' but then you need header so don't botter... I build my own cabin with 1.5 wooddfiber panel (eco4 by sonoclimat) + 2.25" foam (open cell). The total R value is R 13... but because it's on the outside (the foam comes with 1 layer of tivek), there's no thermal bridge... with still no insulation inside. If i was to do it again, i would put a 3.5 foam (even 4") and no 1.5 woodfiber panel, cause i made the work twice... so it's sheaper than sip's.... I have 2x4 cavities, so with rockwool i would have R24 with no thermal bridging... So my message. not with a 2X8. + 1 inch of foam, but... 2x6+ 2.5" foam, would beater. The R would be the same in math but the more «outsulation», the better. it's how they se it in Alaska
@@saticharlie - FYI, he put Headers over the windows inside those SIPs....I saw it. I was rather supersized how much wood he stuffed into those SIPs, but none appeared on the thermal image.
Yes it would.
2X6 and 2" foam same thing
The easier way to achieve the same thing is to build double walls with offset studs and both walls insulated. Viola! No thermal bridging.
In other words you don't know.
thank you for saving me 40 minutes
The reason I started following their build is because their house almost matches the timber frame I have in mind as my retirement home. The nice thing about a timber frame home is that the walls are not load bearing and there’s plenty of options. In my case SIPS are still on my list of possible choices and now I get to watch their progress, good, bad, and the ugly...
They’re also paying as they go, w/o a mortgage, and have complete documentation that they’ve followed the manufacturer’s warranty vs some contractor that may not be in business down the road.
Allot of the whiners sound like they’re envious and would be complaining no matter what was done. Not all, but quite a few!
Absolutely
Also if in the cold season you ran a flexible (testing purposes) 4" duct down to the basement and up to the peak of the upstairs, you could pull a lot of the heat back down to the floor!!
I haven't viewed for months and notice that your house progress has stopped, and worse, you're ok with that. Are you ever going to finish it?
Joe H or they were feeling burnt out and wanted to take a break.
@Joe H stopped watching? Your watching right now.
Wait: how does the interior electrical wiring in the sips keep one from putting the house wrap and siding on?
They still need to inject foam in the gaps between SIPs, before putting wrapping and siding. But, if they do it now, injected foam will block pre-drilled wiring channels in SIPs, making wiring almost impossible.
Where we are in Canada, pine timber frame costs have remained the same, while stick frame materials have shot up 30-40%. Because of this, were doing pine timber frame with SIF. Were doing a 900sq ft A frame carriage house. Thanks for the notes about moisture.
Is there any electrical outlets and wiring for interior lights and heating?
"Bonding" is just another word for what glueing does. False differentiation there.
When are you going to start looking into a Whole House Generator’s on the market and researching what will be best for your family’s home security when the power goes out during this winter snow's? Do a video on, “Pros and Cons of having a Whole House Generator” then show us putting it in.
There are just as many thermal bridges in SIPs when you use the same lumber as Stick Frame. Tstuds are now the best way to stop thermal bridges.
Nope and Nope....
Only if the panels were 16” wide each.
Nice try...math is not your strong point is it?
Would those foams release toxins when they catch fire???
Ma Sato yes but that’s what kills most people in house fires, the chemicals released from the products of the build- floorings, insulation, plastics, etc
@@atywood I mean, some foams are fire-resistant, which can save lives in emergency
I have an ICF house (decided against SIP) and if the foam burns, it's better for you than hanging around a camp fire. The flame doesn't propagate either.
@@-loki-7727 What are the reasons you decided against SIP? Would you still stick with your choice if you had to do it over?
@@tarawiselove I would 100% do a ICF again. The system I used is called Quadlock out of Georgia. Heating is a big issue in Maine and we pay about $1200-$1400/year in propane for the radiant floor/gas log upstairs/stove and dryer. We supplement with a wood stove burning about $300 in XBLOX (like biobricks). House is a little over 2000 square feet. I chose not to do sips because I couldn't find one that didn't offgas and catch fire (this was 8 years ago, so things may have changed). There is no heat sink in sips, I have 6" of concrete between the foam. ICF is very easy to put up, my friends 11 year old helped out.
Can you do 2 years review after sip house living in what happens both pros and cons
HOT DAY = Lots of Sips
This video was filmed on the 23rd July 2019 according to the thermometer at the vey beginning of the video. Just an observation. Great video, more please..
Put up cheap disposable emergency blankets on a couple of windows inside to test.. It’s just foiled plastic wrap. I have one on a window for a spare room remodel. I think it reduced summer heat!
Jessie one problem with your theory on thermo- bridges on stick frame is people use R board on the outside and usually sheet rock on the inside so that breaks the bridge
Not all builders use R-board on the outside layer, mine is stick frame. On the outside it has a layer of plastic and plywood of a sort. Wall has R-13 fiber glass in wall with the inside is sheet rock.
I was just saying there are ways around thermo-bridging was my point
He can't cover every building method...
What about fire. Where I live, internal cladding consisting of only wood and EPS behind that, are totally no no.
Personally I think I prefer icf
Yes man! People look at me like im nuts when i mention a house made with icf!
@@Gmoney30001 sips are ok but I prefer concrete, especially against hurricanes
I agree ICF would be the best for me. The Garage is ICF but I don't remember any talk about the difference in outside / inside Temps on those walls?
I hear that icf does a better job at keeping temperatures. I guess what really comes down to is cost icf vs wood cost and finding someone who knows what there doing with both
Another option is to put the bulk of the insulation on the outside of the concrete wall which will give you better thermal load
In the cold months weren't you heating the house ? (any thermostat would give you that steady red line ;)
If your insulation and envelope are not performing then you heater won't keep up.
I've been wondering if it wouldn't be worse (or feasible) to run your interior electrical wires on the /faces/ of all the SIP panels and then use 1" furring strips to sheet your drywall. I imagine the carve-outs for j-boxes would be the same in either case. I cringe every time I imagine having to pull wires through that foam and the limitations you're starting with for expansion.
Nice logo Charles, if the panels came with boxes and conduit inside the wall already from the manufacturing, do you think that would be better. As a SIPs builder I can tell you it eliminates the issues he is facing by going with EPS instead of the high performance Urethane SIPs.
I built a SIPS house 28 years ago. I minimized the wiring in the SIPS walls and furred out the baseboard to create a wiring chase in which I placed receptacles. No big deal!
@@joerampey237 In todays world where ADA adaptable is becoming the norm per code. You will have to have it off the ground for water (flooding) issues too. Access is per ADA but both methods (firred out, baseboard) will require continuous nail plate protection.
Nope. More a PIA than they're worth.
That's normal everyday chip board.
no it isn't.
Possibly having issues in the ridge area. Beware of that graph fluctuation in the loft because that will lead to condensation and damage to the SIPS and wafer board construction. imo
Bugaboo must like a warm home to come to when there is snow on the ground, Has he a knock so you know when to open the door for him or has he got a cat door somewhere
HI when will you start the floors?
When they are ready.
when fastend to a timber frame and combined with a heat exchanger i carnt imagine a better built house all the best to you two
The cold roof is the best Idea that I have seen on your build. I wish that I had seen it before we put on a metal roof on our house.
Note that it's impossible to measure temperature with infrared cameras on glass. Because its a reflection. the other issue that you have with thermal cameras is there ability to look at a very hot source and a cold source next to it. as the hot areas will dominate and over ride the cool areas. called selectivity
Raise Lower the heat source is inside the house if measuring in the autumn or winter. The transmission of the glass beats reflection especially for thermal frequency/wavelength ranges.
You can if you apply tape to the surface of the glass. But better cameras and infrared thermometers have adjustments for glass.
100% ✅, the extra cost out weighed buy better insulation and labour costs, I’ll never go back.
Advanced Framing helps minimize the shortcomings of conventional platform/stick framing.
Taking it one step further is a system devised by architect Greg La Vardera, which he calls USA New Wall. Extremely interesting and flexible system that is very promising.
Crib sighting at 23:45
@1434...doesn't it look like a crocodile is trying to climb the house? (no drugs...honest)lol
Do profession SIP builders pull the wiring in the exterior walls as the build goes up?
As a SIPs Builder some of the manufacturers suggest that, most times I do not, or I leave a pull string.
@@ModernMountainLiving A pull string make since. Do you leave a pull string in the chases even after wiring?
@@mitchellmanor1970 there is no string left in the wall one you pull it out with the romex tied to the end of the string.
@@ModernMountainLiving we put the romex in the wall panels before they were installed - but that needed quite a bit of pre-planning
@@gilunionhall In some circumstances, planing for future electrical, you can pull the romex and an additional pull string, ie a future home run to the breaker box where you needed an outlet on a separate breaker.
Local design-builder in Ohio, zone 5-6. While I personally enjoy researching efficient homes, a few BIG driving factors for me as an employee of the said builder; will the client pay the extra cost? (not typically) Do local codes require it or anything close? (no) I like SIPs, they just are not standard here, mostly because you still need a frame to put it on; extra cost and lead time. ZIP panels are by far the popular choice around here when code requires a continuous air barrier. Much like anything else, it takes a village to make change, if the change is needed.
Yes you still need a frame. Great for timber frame that's it.
@@williamvanderven4672 Wrong
Steel-clad SIPS with offset steel also stop thermal bridging, but they ARE the envelope - just seal the joints between them. No need for siding if you don't want it - but I wouldn't want to do that with OSB. And, yes, OSB is nasty stuff - offgassing etc.. I'd rather spend more for steel clad.
I mostly wonder what is more expensive: prefab sips with wiring and plumbing integrated in it, or stick framing with wiring and plumbing integrated in it. Without those sips seem the better choice to me, but with those include I dont know. If you could help me with that, i would appreciate it. Very interesting to watch tho!
Would there be any advantage to wrapping and taping the SIP on the roof before making it a cold roof? Using a non-permeable wrap? Just curious. Anyone know?
excellent explanation about the thermal bridge. thanks
I read the titel and was like "yeah, if you want to go across the water". Then I read the titel again.
I wouldn't call 50 F in the living room comfortable. When are you going to do air tightness test?
I live in a sip home. This guy is spot on. Thre rest don't know.
what a nice attitude, I like your videos
Get some trees planted to shade hot doors and windows 😊
That's pretty impressive. The stability in all the rooms is kind of shocking to me.