MULTIPLE AC'S DOWN AND A WATER LEAK
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- This was a service call on multiple ac's down and a water leak, I blew out the drain, explained how a negative air pressure drain needs a pee trap, and adjusted the building balance.
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Dont know why, not an HVAC tech, have no professional interest in it. just like watching your videos.
Thanks Timothy
Me too, Im a restaurant general manager and I've learned so much watching these videos and do a lot of my own PM work and troubleshooting. I get the funniest looks from HVAC techs when they show up lol.
Same
Timothy, that’s not so crazy. I’m an electrical engineer myself but still enjoy Chris’ content a great deal!
@@sparkydave2783 I know it is not crazy, I just don't know why i enjoy them so much
I love watching someone that takes pride in their work and doent just do the bare minimum to get by.
The cooks/staff are ALWAYS the last in mind.
The chicken store I work for has two zones, helpfully listed as "Front" and "Back." The "Front" allegedly controls just the dining room, with the temperature sensor in the short hallway leading to customer restrooms. The hallway has a shorter ceiling than the dining room, and the outlet vents are behind a decorative wooden beam that forces the dining room air directly on top of the front cashiers - the air isn't even directed into the dining room. The "Back" zone is supposed to be the entire back of the house: office, dry storage, 3 walk-ins, and the cook line (with 4 return ducts directly over the breading station where there is airborne flour). The temperature sensor for that zone is right outside the office door, at the exact opposite end of the building from the cook line, across from the walk-in doors (8-10 feet away).
We have to crank the system down to 68-70 degrees for the "Back" zone in order to get the cook line below 85-90 degrees. As one would expect, the office and dry storage spaces are ice cold. The "Front" zone requires we crank the dining room down to about 65-67 degrees in order for the front cashier to get down to 75-78 degrees.
For added fun - we run at a STRONG negative pressure. Front doors require superhuman strength to open, and you can hear the low moan (and feel the rush) of air being sucked between the front doors when closed. You can actually feel a breeze in the vestibule as the air rushes between the two front doors, and then through the door between the vestibule and the dining room.
Then, you add in employees that tell me I'm "too stupid" to understand how the thermostats work. These same employees fail to understand the "Auto" setting on the Honeywell Vision Pro thermostats - seems pretty easy to understand to me, you essentially set a Max and a Min temperature and the system is intelligent enough to cool or heat as necessary (and yes, I set it for the inside blowers to run continuously, since nobody is willing to learn or take the time to turn them on/auto when occupied, and I haven't poked around to see if there is a schedule I can set for an occupied mode because I keep getting screamed at in Patwah to stop "messing things op" because I'm "too stew pid" and I "dough no how eee twerks"). _Listen girl, I'm no HVAC tech, but I've replaced more thermostats than you've operated in your lifetime, and I have a fairly good hand at keeping my oil-burning furnace running beautifully, but whatever you say, I'm the stupid one!_
Instead, we have "Thermostat Wars." Indoor temperature is usually set to 87 degrees, which is UNBEARABLE no matter where you are in the store, and over 100 on the cook lines, and if I complain, that one employee (the one that called me stupid) sets the A/C to 47 degrees as a knee-jerk childish response. (She's 23, I'm 42, just in case anyone cares...)
We CAN have it set for everyone to be comfortable, and once I found that "sweet spot," I took a cell phone picture of both thermostats to have a permanent record of what worked so I can sneak into the office and set it that way when I come in! No more employee threats to go home because they're sweating profusely, employees suffering dizzy spells from 100+ degree working conditions, and less bovine excrement (BS) and loose stools from early-stage heat exhaustion in the workplace is always a plus. No more complaints to the owner about her refusing to adjust the temperature below 87 (even locking the office so we couldn't adjust it one day, because she was cold), and no more retaliatory complaints that we're "bullying" her because we are begging for a few **literal** degrees of compromise.
TL;DR: Poor system layout and implementation, coupled with idiot coworkers, results in erratic temperature control, cold customers, and overheated employees. Or, just your average day at a chain franchise.
A few thoughts. First, that T&B company's license should be revoked. Turning off the m/u/a units, slowing down exhaust fans, then opening up the o/s/a in the a.c. units? Left me shaking my head!
Down here in Miami, if you do that, ALL of the duct work and diffusers would be dripping. We routinely have r/h levels in the 94-98% range year round. This area is just drained out swamp. You get the picture.
Next, the p-trap on the first Carrier appears to be too small. I believe that model unit requires a 4" trap. That on is not even close.
As far as broken drain pans, i agree that those drain pana crack or strip out routinely. I see that all the time. Just my .02. Keep up the good work.
Hey Chris, I learn something new every time I watch one of your videos. I appreciate the way you explain why you do something. It's like having my very own instructor. 👍🏻
Quality, integrity and tradition.
Thanks for not having any annoying intros or music, right to the point! Great vids!
Thanks for watching bud! I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 4/27/20 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my recent uploads, and answer questions from the chat, emails and TH-cam comments, come on over and check it out. th-cam.com/video/9SPpfN6LKd8/w-d-xo.html
Hi Chris here in the land downunder.Its a minimum of 15% of fresh air for all buildings,its law here.
Up here in southern Ontario canada I only ever see condensate drains go directly onto the roof
I'm not in your field but I am impressed with your business acumen and management of your customers. and their needs and expectations. Your tech skills are first class but combined with an understanding of the businesses you deal with would make you a formidable presence in the area you cover.
It was interesting to see how the condensate drain can flow in reverse when broken off at the outlet. I guess there's more to those than meets the eye!
That flex is a real shit show, the background scenery is beautiful!
Best channel for HVAC on TH-cam. Thanks for keeping the content coming Chris. Starting my first restaurant focused HVAC/R job next week. Gonna take all of the tips and knowledge I've learned from your channel and hopefully excel in the next chapter of my career.
Something to watch while I'm at the gym
Very nice job. I have a good friend that had a balancing company and did certified lab hoods for me in a large lab building. We used to find fire dampers closed from failure of the soldered fire links. Hope you get a chance to check them in that restaurant. Some of those hacked up old building AC systems can make you nuts due to so many hackers out there. Thanks for the great video's. You are the best I have seen.
lack of makeup air and high negative building pressures and loose belts can slow the exhaust flow enough to cook the fire links.
it's possible they're the wrong temperature to start with after the modification and nobody cared nor looked. but I'm no fire/hood guy =p
I’m glad you explained air balance in a restaurant air out and air in so it doesn’t blow the entry doors open or closed Love your videos
Watched your video on the cluster f with the impossible motor fan change that t shorted out.i just can’t say enough good things about you and your analyzing the situation. You break it down so even a person like me can grasp the situation. Thanks dude.
That's a Pain, I was in Discount Tire Last Month the Air Balance between the wait room and shop area was unbelievable! Like an Airplane
I work on a lot of roofs and always wondered why the water didn't come out of those holes with the pipes disconnected. Fascinating.
Comment: The challenge here was adjusting the balance while not causing the exhaust fans to starve for airflow. The kitchen being in need of negative airflow for exhaust and positive flow for cooling this is cycling of course with return air being pulled from the box, while the entrances being in need of slightly positive flow especially during summer conditions. Then taking into account the dining room in need of air exchange rates that won't work against your goal while keeping customers comfortable. Then the issue of 'Make up air from the economizers, which given the season can cause equipment to endure additional loads. Yeah, I'd do the best I could too. Fan belts and adjustments while all systems are in operating condition probably did improve the box. Yet the box had different loads thru out the floor plan. Condensate flow follows a given set of rules, comply or suffer the consequences. Place all drains in compliance period. Hope I got the big picture. As usual you gave us the info, Thanks.
Great video. It is ridiculous how bad the ductwork was done. Pure laziness.
you really have a/c knowledge and you explain everything so we can understand easy
New non tech here but in the const industry. This stuff is fascinating...
Chris I’ve used a 3/4” piece of galvanized pipe to rethread the fittings on the Carrier units. If the plastic is cracked I use submersible epoxy on the fitting. Hope this helps. Good luck
hope your hand gets better soon , our badminton team needs you.
An analogy of the unit won't drain because of the negative pressure is if you're trying to get your nose to drain, but you're continuously sniffing. That's what it sounded like when the pan was full enough the water wanted to run out, but the unit was in a continual 'sniff'.
Do you ever replace the full carrier units? Would love a video on a full replacement on one!
That would take a third party for camera..hand signals to crane op are required..installers hand position old and new on adaptor curb....
Rule of thumb....... For eg... If an indoor ducted fancoil unit has the fan berrel on the R/A side.... you need a P/Trap..... If its on the S/A side then you dont need..... Package units you will find that they all need /Traps but can also depend on the snail shell fan Evap fan barrel is...
Love the new Lennox equipment, nice stuff
that's right down the street from me in Rancho Cucamonga
This reminds me of the time an animal dug a hole from the ceiling below to the bottom of the condenser cabinet above and it was leaking into the drop ceiling of the lunch room of a two story warehouse.
Awesome video as always! I'd love to see you do a video on replacing a broken drain pan on a commercial RTU or just discuss how you do that on say a 10-ton package unit
30 years has taught me is way easier to get paid for 4 invoices at 3,000 than 1invoice at 12k
Man i love your videos you explain things exactly the way i like things things explained to me! I work for thermoking, i specialize in the truck and trailer units but i have experience in APU thermokings, marine and rail car container units, coldplate units and some other misc stuff . Your videos are helping me with certain areas of what i do that i have some unclear knowledge about it like high/low pressure switches on coldplates and stuff.. Anyways i might one day try my hand in refridgeration repairs in your field, i live in florida so bussiness is abundant here! Take it easy and thanks
I've never worked on a restaurant and thought "Can't wait to come back here!".
Ive been watching your videos for a while and I amazed at your knowledge. I was just wondering if you have favorite manufacturer (unit wise) as well as your favorite system board to work with?
Nice video - I ran into a new system that was leaking into the building and as soon as I shut down the unit the condensate ran out - after doing a little looking I figured that the return air duct work was about half the size it should have been... so if the unit ran long enough to fill up the tray it would overflow - and the moron who installed it plugged the emergency drain pan that was under the unit..
Wow that was stupid of him! I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 12/2/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from the Chat, TH-cam comments, and email’s. Come on over and check it out if you can th-cam.com/video/p3rL6MyXeW4/w-d-xo.html
It spontaneously sounds odd to me, who live in a cold climate, to have a positive pressure indoors. Of course it makes sense in hot climate to do it though, especially with ACs running 24/7, since you are likely to have cooler (and thus drier) air inside than outside. Pushing drier air into the walls is generally preferable. In Sweden the outside air is almost always drier than the inside, so we always run negative air pressure in the buildings. Not to the point of not being able to open doors of course, but we still rather want air to leak into the house than out of it.
We do have mandatory ventilation checks (literally what it's called) on newer buildings, that has to be carried out by licensed ventilation people, though, and modern buildings are always built to be as airtight as possible, in fact there is another mandatory test when erecting a new building to see that it's airtight enough to the code.
I'm amazed that I don't see a million stripped out holes on that thing. Another wonderful Carrier problem...
you mention of P-traps, here in Virginia, every drain, has to have a trap, just like septic lines, see a 6 inch line come out, & drain to ground, but there will be a short trap, some will make you laugh, but has to be there.
Seen this building in another video same negative pressure issues.... why not have a float to stop the lowest unit blower and alert management if it backs up with water? Just a electronic float and a pair of wires... just a suggestion for the customer....
Nice job and video
VFD without shielded cables? You guys always surprise me - just zip-tied cables going to the blower motor - seriously? Would be highly illegal here ;-)
Location of the p trap is important too.
Um service??? I love on copper installed drains with no union to be able to remove and clean the trap. All ole weathermaker..probably still 22. I personally would make new drain lines on the roof and stop the internal so this way no one shares a common to have issues. Nothing but the best for you Chris. Be safe have a great day
Is that drain set up a code thing?
seems like trouble waiting to happen.
It is required. Condensate water has to go to a storm drain , flower bed or grassy area. It cannot drain on the roof or run to a drive or walk area. This will create a slip area and a liability problem.
The pee trap milfed out the video cool
HEY MEHN I LOVE THE CONTENT YOU PUT OUT
Thank you, Chris good stuff!
Nice video bud
Poor belt selection on exhaust fans seems to be endemic. Let's face it; industry standard rubber V-belts do not cut it for hot exhaust. Bearing stores are a good source of EPDM belts, that have wider heat range. Also re-check tension after run-in and while still warm.
5:22 I would add a tee with an elbow pointed down on that low drain so it will dump on roof instead of back up into that package unit.
Have you ever fixed stuff in your building like condenser and heating duck and the air supply room?
i usually adjust econ miser to outdoor temp
Hello Brother! Newer code requires drain pan float switch shutdown on rooftop package AC units. I don't know that any of those units are new enough for this but, I can imagine restaurants would rather have a water leak vs shutdown. Good procedure and diagnostics.
One other note, if all those copper drain lines were converted to 1 inch pvc with 3/4 to 1 inch adaptor, 1 inch p-trap this could help slow down some of these nuisance calls, just a thought. 👍😄
larger diameter pipe isn't always better, more so in low volume trickling flows, it could build up "junk" 5x faster and be worse off.
throttle bottle really? So I suppose all those 7.5 to 20 ton AC systems I installed over the years should have had a 3/4 drain instead of the factory required 1 inch line according to your misguided theory. I love the specific scientific 5x 😂
That duct work was rough gotttt damnnn
What was the issues with the other 2 units not working? I appreciate all your videos and training, your very thorough, I'm going from residential to commercial next week.
More info on negative air pressure and econmiser
Doesn't it rain in California? Just because the drain is broken doesn't mean the roof should leak.
If the building was already negative and you fix the exhaust fans wouldn’t that make it worse?
Yeah that's what I was trying to say but I wasnt very clear, fixing the exhaust helped with the heat in the kitchen than I adjusted the balance and found the duct leaks at the diffusers.
Is there anything you do to slow down crap buildup in the drain?
Condensate drain pan tablets.
Change filters in time so crap won't bypass and go down the drain.
Annual Evaporator cleaning , change air filters often / before they get 50% dirty , pan tabs in the drain - replaced at proper intervals.
Bleach every 6 months
Rig up a drip system to drip one drop of bleach into the drain every so often. the tiniest drip system would counteract it almost entirely. or Just hose out the trap every so often. they plug up about every 4-5 years.
Nice video 👍
You definitely don't want 1.21 Gigawatts thru you while on a roof.
Hi Chris, Greetings from DFW texas, a Fan here!!. I'm Wondering! Why you don't let the condensate pipe drain on the roof? they supposed to have Roof drains or go straight to the roof drain, this will keep away any leak issues. I installed units like that and I did the piping both ways, no issues. City Codes? I am a hvac/r tech with industrial experience.
Yeah its a local code to have condensate drain into the sewer where it can be properly treated before it is dumped into the ocean. I will discuss this more on my livestream tonight, I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 11/11/19 @ 5:PM (pacific time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from emails, the Livechat, and TH-cam comments. Come on over and check it out if you can th-cam.com/video/Rm3XGBDxpOQ/w-d-xo.html
Hey I know you mentioned your not certified to balance air, but I was curious on How you adjust the air in a customers home, just looking for pointers.
Another great video 👍👍
The new belt on the exhaust at ~8:30 is spinning faster than the large pully. Odd.
The camera plays tricks on your eyes ..........
I will be going live on TH-cam this evening 9/16/19 @ 5:PM (pacific coast time) to discuss my most recent uploads and answer questions from the Live Chat, TH-cam comments, and from emails. Come on over and check it out, th-cam.com/video/7hOAiEcaIg4/w-d-xo.html
Two biggest issues in the HVAC industry: 1.) not understanding Building Pressure and the affects 2.) Not understanding airflow (short of at the unit) and how that effects EVERYTHING This bothers me, it boggles my mind seeing as how air movement IS our source for heating & cool buildings.
Hay Chris can you just explain the makeup air units in a video please.
And keep your wrest warm because I got through that wrest injury a couple of weeks ago.
Be careful Bro
MUA which stands for make up air unit.
Its job is to introduce the same amount of air as is being removed. Many cases it tempers that air as well.
@@jrsmyth9761 bro I work for those units in Dubai United Arab emirates.
But I couldn't find any video of bro Chris on those units.
That's was the reason and another thing I wanted to see what kind of system used in California.
Because I show all these videos to my employees and now it's like a part of my briefing.
If they have leaks when the AC drain malfunctions then why don't they have major floods inside when it rains? Does the water actually leak into the building through the AC system? Ductwork?
Neat to know the p trap i tought it was aboud sewer smells as they wure bonected to a drain
Different applications, similar needs. That A/C condensate drain only ever handles what's essentially distilled water plus whatever dust and other crap blows in onto the condenser drain pan, so there shouldn't really be any sewer smell. Doubly so because it connects to the storm drain, not the sewer, and those two systems are separate in all but the oldest cities (mostly a EU thing, I think).
Best way to keep truck stock video?
what is that green exhaust fan for? at 8:36
Hey Chris, nice one as usual.
Is there a chart or something where I can find the adequate length and diameter of the P trap according to the air volume or fan horse power etc , or is it the manufacturer only who can determine that ?
Cheers !
Wow a bad conduit over the heating and AC duck
I get the same calls..mold plugs in the trap causing ceiling rain..ha. someone breaks off a three year old re molded shallow pvc trap and then leaves. Then I get the repeat bs call, and the blame.. My response..Climb the 2 story ladder and watch me..then tell your 'other guy' to leave my company's equipment alone.
Every RTU I've ever seen has a trap that just drains right onto the roof. Why add all the extra plumbing to pipe the condensate into a drain?
Mike Rocheleau drain lines must go to approved locations. Based on blue print design. They can go to a gutter if it is tied to a storm sewer. They can go to grass or flower beds but cannot go to walk or drive areas. This creates a slip hazard and a liability issue.
I have a question about the P-trap on the negative pressure side. So I need water in the trap in order to create a positive pressure on the other side of the trap so that the water will drain. Am I correct?
Also I did commercial HVAC install for 8 years. I cringed when I saw that ductwork. Horrible.
This video really came in handy today. I was doing a PM on a large central AHU with a chilled water coil. The drain pans were dry & all the condensate water was on the floor. I remembered the part of the video where you were talking about the negative pressure side. This AHU does not have a P-trap but I did look & I found a crack or a gap at the bottom of the AHU housing which was allowing air to come in. I sealed it temporary with cardboard & later saw that water was again in the drain pan & not on the floor. I will do a real patch job tomorrow but thanks for making these videos. They help me more than you can imagine!
"I'm just using my hands."... Your hands will know better. I things went pretty damn fine before all these meters and stuff. I like technology but as my Grandmother said... "Trust your gut and it should be fine".
I thought flex was banned in CA ha
Always 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
HEY BOSS SO I CURRENTLY HAVE A TRANE 15 ton PACKAGE UNIT THAT IS STUCK ONLY HEATING. ITS A BRAND NEW UNIT. THE THERMOSTAT IS BRAND NEW HOWEVER ITS ONLY PUMPING OUT HOT AIR. WHAAT SHOULD I LOOK FOR?
Oh so a Hood fan hase the belt up top careful as they can when the start sound like a screeching car when They slam on their breaks
Can you notice the building being under negative pressure ,by just being in the space ?
No you can feel it when you open and exterior door while all the other doors are closed and all the equipment is running.
So would it be considered negative balance , when you try to open the door to a mechanic room where there's a package unit and the door is like being sucked close
Or could it be just that the evap fan is so strong ?
What is the point in having make up air units if they don't use them and just use the ac for heat an cooling instead of having the compressor running and having it to mix it in
What kind of insects get inside of those machines through those drains? Seems that there would be all manner of infestestions getting into those systems through one way or another....
How did you fix the threads on the drain pan to reattach the trap?
I didnt I will let them know they need a new drain pan
What happened to your hand?
What business management software do you use? Thanks for the video.
Intuit Field Service Management
@@HVACRVIDEOS Thank You Sir.
Any job offer or hiring man!! In your place? As HVAC technician . .
The wife says you sound like tom hanks lol
why did they disable all the Makeup air units?
swamp coolers, nothing like pumping high humidity air into the building you're trying to dehumidify and cool.
at least pulling in through the HVAC unit economizers will temper and dehumidify some before shoving it in!
also, main goal less air and less air out = huge energy savings
Are you left handed?
No right handed
Hose idea is bad for most people to do. They get carried away...
Can you explain, the trap. I got , that the pan being on the neg side..but, what I don't get. Is how adding a pipe with a trsp, makes the drain now. If the neg pressure keeps the water from draining. What's the difference adding more a pipe/trap?.
For the trap to work, it must be full of water to start. If it dries out, then the same thing happens, but it gets filled when the unit shuts off or by slow trickle.
What is happening, and he did state this, is the air is being sucked in through that hole and keeping the water from draining.
Put the trap on there and now that column of water prevents the suction from holding the water and there is no air and now it drains. You must size it to be larger than the suction pressure or it still won't drain because it suck the water out of the trap.
So is it possible to oversize the trap?
David Johnson no, as long as the outlet remains below the inlet the condensate will seek its own level but, if too shallow it will not work properly. No double traps or dips in your drain line or will cause problems. Good example of a larger than normal trap would be a drain that goes under a slab of building foundation. There would be no need for an additional trap installed on the system as this could cause a problem.👍
What is this device called at 9:02 ?
MUA which stands for make up air unit.
Its job is to introduce the same amount of air as is being removed. Many cases it tempers that air as well.
@@jrsmyth9761 thank you for the explanation, I never heard of that devices before. Here in Germany such HVAC systems are less common.
👍
👍🏼
My question is....WHY....would ANY mechanic use copper ,take the time to sweat a trap vs. PVC fittings and glue ? Imo,there is no upside to copper.
I have never seen drains not dumping out on the roof vs going into the space.
WHY ? To keep the condensation from slowly damaging the roof ? Doesn't it rain,and down pour occasionally ? Or....is it some stupid code ONLY in
COMMIfornia ? No offense to you guys.
Where abouts are you located in??
Southern California
Dont ever think those air balance guys are smarter. They just have a degree under their belts. Doesnt make them smarter. You know how to fix units manipulate them as well. If those guys where smart, then the would how to fix all these problems and we'd be out of a job. They are just you a I, I've in past had redesign ductwork cuz these so called engineers didnt know properly size duct and and keep the balance of the air while having those ducts run through steel beams. Just remember to the average civilian, you seem smarter than them and that's the respect you give them but trust me they all dont know what the hell they're doing.
Go pro on your cap so you'll be hands free.