I think you're doing your audience a disservice, and being quite manipulative by showing JP's "clips" out of context. I'm aware you're trying to portray your point of view, but it's incredebly riddled with biases and "bad takes." No offense, but it would behoove you to review more of his material before giving your opinion, which is skewed at best.
Agree with many of you above. I was initially shocked by jordan petersens takes and theories until i realised i wss being fed a very narrow idea of him. Once i sat down amd wstched beginning to end, a full two hours i could see his nuance. Much like roger scruton. The illiberal liberal take would have him as a rigth wing bigot, but listen to him converse with people who dont agree with him or who have a different view and you can see hes thst old fashioned thing weno longer see..an enquiring academic, yes with strong opinions i for one dont sgree with usually, but a reasoning man of good faith overall. Go and watch his exchange eith mary harrington on feminism...she is very clear with him thst she does not agree with him on certain matters and its such a relief to see proper intellectual mutual respect...not what this guy peddles, which is kind of suspicious evaluation that distorts and takes your eye awsyy from the bigger picture
I can only assume that your knowledge of Scandinavia and in particular Scandinavian women has not been gained firsthand. From my experience they take a somewhat cynical view of foreign cultural norms and have no hesitation in expressing their own attitudes on any topic imaginable. It would be a brave man who suggested that their behaviour was influenced by Netflix! You might want to look for a better argument.
First comment is that he says “women are not in positions of power because they are less competent”. That’s not what he ever said, he said it was a matter of interest which leads to differences in career choices, which has been demonstrated in scandinavia. Not a matter of inherent differences in competence to achieve better career positions
Hi Michael, So sorry for not replying at the time. Yes, I do understand he made those arguments about scandinavia - the cultural paradox, but that argument is flawed - actually cited as flawed by those who developed the data around that cultural paradox. But he also does say that women are not well suited to positions of power that demand certain characteristics. But, I do appreciate you engaging with this issues, so thank you for engaging with my video.
Thanks, This is good to know. I wonder how many comments TH-cam redacted due to their policy of removing harmful comments. I reckon there were a fair few of them. Am glad I was saved from those at least :)
omg these comments... this is a really well thought out critique thank you for sharing! Hope to see more and I hope the majority of Peterson's audience come around. Great video!
I came here late and see Paul that you have taken some flack. My thoughts are perhaps neither critical nor complimentary - cultural aspects not explored. To illustrate: I graduated in 1971 in the UK in Engineering when the UK was not particularly egalitarian. Also through historical conditioning an Engineer was not considered on-par with the acknowledged “Professions” say Accountant, Banker, Doctor/ GP, solicitor etc. In common understanding an Engineer was more associated with a steam train driver. The “Professions” were considered middle class and paid accordingly. This cultural perception was further reinforced during the Thatcher times. In 1970 I visited Jugoslavia not so much as a tourist rather as a family I married in to. There I discovered that Engineer was a widely respected profession, perhaps not so much as Doctor but certainly more than Banker or Accountant who in common understanding where more associated with humble bookkeepers. There I meet several female student or graduated Engineers - I met none in England. Later, after the changes, I had similar experience in Hungary and Romania. Politics aside ( if we can) I concluded that inbreed ‘Cultural snobbery conditioning’ is a key factor in this discussion. In the Nederlands it was different again in the late 70’s. Engineer definitely had a highly respected status and commanded a reflective income. So while girls in my secondary modern school did ‘domestic science’ and typing lesions we boys did carpentry and metal work. Top down analysis of symptoms is all well and good but often unable to engage with the bottom up causes because the lower you go the more diverse and complex the individual subject becomes and exceeds the capability of the analysis. An Engineer works from the bottom up.
I am so sorry for taking so long to acknowledge your comment. You make some excellent pionts here and you end on a blinder. I love the way you put that- the lower you go, the more complexity you get. Nice one. Had never thought of it like that. More folk should listen to engineers :) p
The tendency to acknowledge important, indeed fatal, counter-arguments and then just ignore them needs further explanation. It has been very evident during the PO Horizon Inquiry. On questioning people admit that it was always possible that the system had failed, but then ignore that knowledge to assert that, nonetheless, it hadn’t failed. The IT people knew Horizon was not infallible. The investigators and lawyers knew they had no evidence of actual theft. The whole edifice of prosecution was built on sand, but they just carried on. And many of them still insist on the SPM’s guilt!
why are you so dishonest. let the people see the whole video. seriously i spend a lot of time listening to how people think and when you start showing clips your the problem .
So I still havent really found your argument with the gender paradox. If a society is more free and egaliratian and woman still go into the more social lines of careers, is there even a paradox? It's only a paradox if you assume that they shouldn't. And the argument that the culture of these countries is shaped by outside media influences and travel - im sorry but first of all these influences seem to be really weak in comparison with social norms and culture which are already present in the country. Go look at a german and a french person. According to your logic, they should have roughly the same culture right? Since those are both very free, egalitarian countries? I really don't think so. Your upbringing and expriences in the real world are what shapes your culture the most, not Netflix and TH-cam. I don't say theres nothing happening on that front, but its only a fraction of all the influence you recieve in your life. As for me, I don't believe there is a paradox. Woman are just different from men and it's totally fine to accept that. Nobody is worth less because of that. As long as everyone is free to decide what they want to do in their live. I don't see a problem just letting people decide for themselfs, even if it looks like gender stereotypes are confirmed.
> "Serious thought" Ha! This is rich. "Yeah he is saying 'things', but people compete against people, haha he is so simplistic!!!" Really, man?! That's the level we are at? Yeah, men compete against other people, but they do it *with* and *through* what? Things. War, Business, Games, Survival, the common characteristic in all those is that we humans use tools to interact with them. And something I'm sure most human populaces have understood since Homo Abilis is that we are also defined by what we use and build. It's obvious that males, who have the role of protecting and expending the tribe, would have environmental pressure to be better at handling, creating, and thinking about tools, this can further extend to concepts and ideas that allow one to build and manipulate such tools. I have seen enough nerds and geeks, which were all predominantly males, to know that there is something in the mind of men that make them focused on subjects of their choices, whether it be games, books, sports, etc... As much as you want to deny that reality, it's plain obvious to everyone who spends 5 mins looking around. And please, don't just tell me about that one girl you know who is obsessed with mechanics or whatever, the point is not that all women are "no good" at those, it's that males have a margin advantage that becomes an overwhelming difference when applied over thousands to millions of people. At *no point* Jordan Peterson says that "women [or black people] are no good".
I think you're doing your audience a disservice, and being quite manipulative by showing JP's "clips" out of context. I'm aware you're trying to portray your point of view, but it's incredebly riddled with biases and "bad takes." No offense, but it would behoove you to review more of his material before giving your opinion, which is skewed at best.
Agree with many of you above. I was initially shocked by jordan petersens takes and theories until i realised i wss being fed a very narrow idea of him. Once i sat down amd wstched beginning to end, a full two hours i could see his nuance. Much like roger scruton. The illiberal liberal take would have him as a rigth wing bigot, but listen to him converse with people who dont agree with him or who have a different view and you can see hes thst old fashioned thing weno longer see..an enquiring academic, yes with strong opinions i for one dont sgree with usually, but a reasoning man of good faith overall. Go and watch his exchange eith mary harrington on feminism...she is very clear with him thst she does not agree with him on certain matters and its such a relief to see proper intellectual mutual respect...not what this guy peddles, which is kind of suspicious evaluation that distorts and takes your eye awsyy from the bigger picture
I can only assume that your knowledge of Scandinavia and in particular Scandinavian women has not been gained firsthand. From my experience they take a somewhat cynical view of foreign cultural norms and have no hesitation in expressing their own attitudes on any topic imaginable. It would be a brave man who suggested that their behaviour was influenced by Netflix! You might want to look for a better argument.
Aye try telling a Scottish woman she's not as capable of anything a man can do.
Too easy to debunk. I shall sit down and produce well fleshed out comments with referencing to show why this is a poor analysis of Peterson's words
First comment is that he says “women are not in positions of power because they are less competent”. That’s not what he ever said, he said it was a matter of interest which leads to differences in career choices, which has been demonstrated in scandinavia. Not a matter of inherent differences in competence to achieve better career positions
Hi Michael, So sorry for not replying at the time. Yes, I do understand he made those arguments about scandinavia - the cultural paradox, but that argument is flawed - actually cited as flawed by those who developed the data around that cultural paradox. But he also does say that women are not well suited to positions of power that demand certain characteristics. But, I do appreciate you engaging with this issues, so thank you for engaging with my video.
This video is filled with absolute hogwash. Please contextualize the statements you are criticizing!
Well you seem to have triggered the JP fanboys. PZ Myers tends to get flooded with the same when he dares to correct.
Thanks, This is good to know. I wonder how many comments TH-cam redacted due to their policy of removing harmful comments. I reckon there were a fair few of them. Am glad I was saved from those at least :)
omg these comments... this is a really well thought out critique thank you for sharing! Hope to see more and I hope the majority of Peterson's audience come around. Great video!
Thank you so much for your feedback. It helps me keep going, even when posting videos on Peterson comes under a bit of fire :)
I came here late and see Paul that you have taken some flack. My thoughts are perhaps neither critical nor complimentary - cultural aspects not explored.
To illustrate: I graduated in 1971 in the UK in Engineering when the UK was not particularly egalitarian. Also through historical conditioning an Engineer was not considered on-par with the acknowledged “Professions” say Accountant, Banker, Doctor/ GP, solicitor etc. In common understanding an Engineer was more associated with a steam train driver.
The “Professions” were considered middle class and paid accordingly. This cultural perception was further reinforced during the Thatcher times.
In 1970 I visited Jugoslavia not so much as a tourist rather as a family I married in to. There I discovered that Engineer was a widely respected profession, perhaps not so much as Doctor but certainly more than Banker or Accountant who in common understanding where more associated with humble bookkeepers. There I meet several female student or graduated Engineers - I met none in England.
Later, after the changes, I had similar experience in Hungary and Romania.
Politics aside ( if we can) I concluded that inbreed ‘Cultural snobbery conditioning’ is a key factor in this discussion. In the Nederlands it was different again in the late 70’s. Engineer definitely had a highly respected status and commanded a reflective income.
So while girls in my secondary modern school did ‘domestic science’ and typing lesions we boys did carpentry and metal work.
Top down analysis of symptoms is all well and good but often unable to engage with the bottom up causes because the lower you go the more diverse and complex the individual subject becomes and exceeds the capability of the analysis. An Engineer works from the bottom up.
I am so sorry for taking so long to acknowledge your comment. You make some excellent pionts here and you end on a blinder. I love the way you put that- the lower you go, the more complexity you get. Nice one. Had never thought of it like that. More folk should listen to engineers :)
p
This is a strawman festval. Really bad arguments.
thanks for you comment.
p
In order to critique you need to understand what you critique.
The tendency to acknowledge important, indeed fatal, counter-arguments and then just ignore them needs further explanation. It has been very evident during the PO Horizon Inquiry. On questioning people admit that it was always possible that the system had failed, but then ignore that knowledge to assert that, nonetheless, it hadn’t failed. The IT people knew Horizon was not infallible. The investigators and lawyers knew they had no evidence of actual theft. The whole edifice of prosecution was built on sand, but they just carried on. And many of them still insist on the SPM’s guilt!
Very well said.
Thanks for posting, glad you shared these thoughts,
p
why are you so dishonest. let the people see the whole video. seriously i spend a lot of time listening to how people think and when you start showing clips your the problem
.
you're part of the problem.
So I still havent really found your argument with the gender paradox. If a society is more free and egaliratian and woman still go into the more social lines of careers, is there even a paradox? It's only a paradox if you assume that they shouldn't. And the argument that the culture of these countries is shaped by outside media influences and travel - im sorry but first of all these influences seem to be really weak in comparison with social norms and culture which are already present in the country. Go look at a german and a french person. According to your logic, they should have roughly the same culture right? Since those are both very free, egalitarian countries? I really don't think so. Your upbringing and expriences in the real world are what shapes your culture the most, not Netflix and TH-cam. I don't say theres nothing happening on that front, but its only a fraction of all the influence you recieve in your life. As for me, I don't believe there is a paradox. Woman are just different from men and it's totally fine to accept that. Nobody is worth less because of that. As long as everyone is free to decide what they want to do in their live. I don't see a problem just letting people decide for themselfs, even if it looks like gender stereotypes are confirmed.
All that and you’re spinning a web. Ever heard of Occam’s Razor? Try it. You may be surprised. 👍
@@JoH4LH44 I didnt try to write a scientific paper here, i just wrote down what came to mind in a youtube comment.
I thought it was lovely. Glad you posted i :)
Excellent breakdown. Thanks ❤
Thanks for your lovely feedback :)
p
> "Serious thought"
Ha! This is rich.
"Yeah he is saying 'things', but people compete against people, haha he is so simplistic!!!"
Really, man?! That's the level we are at?
Yeah, men compete against other people, but they do it *with* and *through* what?
Things.
War, Business, Games, Survival, the common characteristic in all those is that we humans use tools to interact with them. And something I'm sure most human populaces have understood since Homo Abilis is that we are also defined by what we use and build.
It's obvious that males, who have the role of protecting and expending the tribe, would have environmental pressure to be better at handling, creating, and thinking about tools, this can further extend to concepts and ideas that allow one to build and manipulate such tools.
I have seen enough nerds and geeks, which were all predominantly males, to know that there is something in the mind of men that make them focused on subjects of their choices, whether it be games, books, sports, etc... As much as you want to deny that reality, it's plain obvious to everyone who spends 5 mins looking around.
And please, don't just tell me about that one girl you know who is obsessed with mechanics or whatever, the point is not that all women are "no good" at those, it's that males have a margin advantage that becomes an overwhelming difference when applied over thousands to millions of people. At *no point* Jordan Peterson says that "women [or black people] are no good".