Turn 1 in Modern Yugioh
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
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Yu gi oh has the too many rats problem : you have too many rats, so you bring snakes to kill the rats, then you have too many snakes, so you bring mongoose to kill the snakes, then...
This is a far better analogy for the way I've always described it. Yugioh is a string of problems being fixed by problems. Or a cycle of "create problem, sell solution". Combo Decks were a problem. Nibiru was the answer. Nibiru was the problem. Baronne was the answer. Congratulations, Baronne has now become the problem and re-enabled the initial problem. You now can't remove Baronne, without making Nibiru a problem again. But you can't let Baronne continue to exist because it's enabling the problem.
One of these days we'll reach the "too many universe destroying weapons" and hopefully nothing can ever top that
oh nyoh not the foodchain game design
@@monkfishy6348 make baronne exclusive to it's own archetype to +1 fleur tuner or whatever instead of whatever it was
Truly spoken like an australian
"What do you mean by that" is becoming Josh's catchphrase
I can't blame him. Chat be saying the most outrages things
It is a good question to ask. Makes them think. Most of the time the opinion is hard set, without any reason for example.
Its a good followup to most short takes.
But what do you mean by that
Do you? When in New York, do you Milly Rock?
“Every strategy should have some kind of up side”
tHANK YOU
In today’s yugioh games, even your main phase is your opponents turn too.
That's not a problem, that's what interactivity means, the problem is how strong the first turn is.
If Nibiru fucks up your pet deck, dont blame Nibiru. Blame the direction of the game that a card like Nibiru became necessary
Just like Stun players says thier deck is perfectly fine cause it dies to a single duster/normal summon with more than 1200 attack. Too bad most stun players hides behind solem judgement and moon mirror shield that makes it too hard to counter it.
And dont make me mention Runick. It just a cancer deck that mills a 1/3 of your deck every turn until you got nothing left at turn 3.
@@queenbrightwingthe3890 It's modern yugioh, you'll go through half your deck on your own turn anyway.
You could use this argument to defend Maxx C
Don’t blame Maxx C, blame the direction of the game that Maxx C becomes such a powerful card
Nibiru is easy to play around, maxx c just forces you to end a turn unless you were already gonna win that turn
Maxx c is way more oppressive and its not even close.
Well ocg still not banned max c@@MadDragonify
Just your usual: Sell Problem. Sell Solution.
Thing is, they can't really sell the solution when the problem is so omnipresent.
I just hope Konami keeps printing proper control decks. People may hate Runick/Lab, but the versions of them that didn't rely on floodgates and played more akin to your Paleo list were extremely fun in a way I feel yugioh has somewhat outpaced. Slowing down the game, interacting, needing to get ahead and not being able to kill out of nowhere is IMO one of the most interesting ways to play the game and (as someone who doesn't exclusively play yugioh) helps break up the monotony of every deck effectively being different flavors of aggro-combo.
Psy frame is one of my favorite deck for this reason
The best duels I've ever had were grinding games with tons of interactions that often force you and your opponent to think outside the box
Not saying that every deck should be set 5 pass or lambda pass, but I prefer this above the "baronne/savage" board we usually see
I mainly use Lab in Master Duel, and yeah, it’s absolutely some of the best modern Yugioh I’ve played. Admittedly, part of that is just that I get to consistently enjoy the game without worrying too much about THE BUG, but knowing when to use your limited Lovely Lab pop and hand traps is very satisfying. Transaction Rollback ironed out a lot of the problems I had with the deck, and frankly, I’d rather they ban all the Continuous Trap floodgates(maybe toss in D Barrier too) to force people onto the more thoughtful builds.
The main problem that I see in the control decks for the card design is that the tournaments are structured in a different way, the tournaments have limited time and the control and stun decks are not lethal and long games without a clear win condition. Laberynth arquetype doesn't have that problem but the Runick has it . Maybe we need more control deck with a clear win condition after some plays.
I’ve been playing a 60 pile with reasoning and paleo lab recently and it’s the most fun I’ve been having in the game for a while
I recently started playing runick magical key and the games feels so much better allowing for them to be back and forth. Every turn also is very meaningful and I love how one draw could completely change the game. My favorite duels I saved so far were against tearlment and goblin rider.
i like how Havnis had people thinking "new age of yugioh, in engine handtraps to make the first turn fun!"
and now this format is just archetypes with like 12 one card starters and 20 handtraps in main
You'd think Tear was so OP because it was the direction Konami was taking the game, but then they immediately u-turned and never looked back.
@@marchmelloow It's almost like people hated Tear format.
@@GamerNym Yeah, but that's cause Tear was the only deck like it in the format. Either every deck should play during both turns or neither, and Konami evidently picked the later (despite it seeming like they'd go with the former by making Tear in the first place)
Handtraps are so weird, you use them to stop your opponent turn 1 so they end on a weak or empty board and then turn 2 becomes the new turn 1, except now you can just effortlessly OTK, which nowdays almost any deck does.
From how I see it, both sides are so miserable to deal with when unpunished that it's hard to find the right solution.
It's because the power level is way too high for 8k LP to be lethal. The arms race of card design has left us tossing planet-busting nukes at each other where we should just be playing laser tag.
@@geek593 I was thinking the same thing. Making a board with 8k attack was too easy nowadays, one open board and you're dead. Increasing LP should incline people to play regaining resources playstyle rather than one big board that can't otk.
Make it 20k LP
@@toshiyuki4142 Yeah, maybe. But then it will nerf burn deck or overbuff some deck that use LP as resources or mechanic
@@ghiffaribara2949 How about a shield system?
1. Have 8k LP and 4k Shield - Effect damage directly to LP. Still decks that pay LP have adv.
2. Shield for 2 turns each - all direct atk from monster damage are half.
3. Shield counter - The first 3 atk from monster deal half damage. Still ways to play around but require more summons.
This is why I love playing Ninjas
They let the opponent do whatever and then I can do whatever
With the way I play Ninjas. It usually "Our Turn" and not just your Opponent's turn 😅
I’m sad Ninjas took so long to get decent support because their strategy in Goat is Hysterical.
Art of Transformation + Ninja = BIG KOALA
Ninja is to me what control should be : interractive and not just negates and annoying floodgates
Honestly, exploring the Duel Links approach to the banlist might be a good idea. Instead of being "you can only play X copies of this card", it's "you can only play x cards from this list". We could then just take a hammer to most generic busted cards, put them to 1 or 2, and if you want to use them, fine, but you have to pick carefully. Then we could also limit the power of decks and engines by strategically hitting certain cards. If you make a card like Malicious that's only good with multiple copies, you can make it so players are rewarded for playing in-archetype by being able to access extra copies of those cards at the cost of more generic stuff. If a deck becomes too busted, you can hit certain pieces so you have to pick carefully which parts of it you want.
It'd take a wide, sweeping change to the banlist in order to do this, but IMO, at this point either a huge banlist or a rule change is basically required if we want to tackle turn 1 being so central. Packs won't sell if the cards in them can't keep up with the meta, regardless of how fair or even how fun those cards actually are. So, if they wanted to slow the game down without major changes, they'd have to make the slower cards overwhelmingly strong while still being slow, and that's really hard to do while making the cards feel at least somewhat fun.
Regardless of what's done, though, I still think we need a format in which jank can thrive. There's a lot of fun, wacky, stuff you can do in the game, but it's so far from competitive that unless you find someone who wants to play completely casually, you'll never actually be able to pull that stuff off in a real game. I don't know how we'd make that, but it would be an interesting thing to see.
The talk about cards that modify deckbuilding principles instantly made me think of Sekka's Light which is an incredibly cool card that got slammed by the tcg for no reason whatsoever.
They gotta undue that cuz it's bullshit. No reason the all spells Striker deck should be allowed their power card and not the all monsters Sekka deck. Let ppl build differently!
I saw something like this from someone in chat, but you could allow both player to set trap cards before t0,allowing decks to get their engine started at the same time as the opponent. This would also offset the balance between trap/control decks and balls to the walls combo decks. In this universe, the control/mid range decks would not have their engine stuffed by 4 omni negates, and the combo player gets to think about lines and navigate their deck in the way that I've heard some players describe it.
So it devolves into setting solemns and turn floodgates like trap stun, magic deflector, dimensional barrier, and different dimension grounds? That’s just as miserable
@lordofgarbageprogenitoroft4147 that's when traps become a main part of the game and we cycle out the lingering floodgates that have been necessary for the card to be viable through the banlist resulting in the trap section probably being the same size as the monsters, which is probably where we want to be with the game as balanced between the super types as possible
I'm all for the idea of archetypes messing with deckbuilding rules. It sounds like such an interesting idea, and it opens up new design spaces. It can also work as a new balancing mechanism. Imagine if instead of banning Baronne, it receives an errata that states each copy of Baronne is worth 5 extra deck slots. It limits combo decks' ceiling and becomes an extra factor to consider. It also plays into giving away information as seeing an opponent with a 10 card extra deck tells you that they might be playing Baronne.
As for the emphasis of the first turn, I'm at a point where I just want archetypes to have some kind of in-hand trigger that helps them get some kind of foothold on the same turn. Imagine if there's a new monster for Swordsoul that states that if your opponent special summoned a monster from the extra deck, you can special summon that monster from your hand and add one Swordsoul card to your hand. Something like that where the going second player can have at least a higher chance of being able to play instead of looking at a bricked hand.
I think rush duels legend system would work great for modern yugioh. Make baronne, apoulsa, savage into legend cards. You can only have 1 legend card in the extra deck so you cant have all 3.
Instead of an errata just make it a banlist option. Ban playing just one copy of a card (duo) or ban playing less than two copies of a card (trio). Makes it easier to ajust and you have another option besides baning or not baning a extradeck cards which are usually played as a one off.
For example make appalousa a trio and I:P a duo. A snake eyes deck would have 3 less extra deck spaces to work with. I personally wouldn't know what to cut. Another example would be branded. Make Mirrorjad a trio. The deck would have one less extra deck space. A heavy hit for branded with their tight extra deck. And a hit which would lead to chances in the main deck aswell. Not enough space for all the super poly targets. Let's play dropled instead.
This mechanic (?) would give the game a knew way off balancing the game. A one of card is strong but not banworthy stong or the deck is dead with out this card. Force the player to play more of them. The deck loses either consistency or options. Depending if the card is part of the extra or main deck.
Biggest downside to this approach would be KONAMI. The deck is slightliy too strong. Make a UR a trio. Hits consistency and boosts sales.
I like your idea, very novel!
@@jasonl.7170that's basically what limited banlist is. I like OPs idea, it's more meaningful and shakes up how people will play in yugioh.
@@larrytherustyboii7442 no it isnt. I played a limited format and was able to use all three in the extra. Im speaking about only one of the three and no others. Its like duelinks limit 1 system.
Hand traps (mainly ones that deal with main phase) are a symptom of a bigger power creep issue with the game imo. You can spam so many generically powerful monsters onto the board, that your opponent going second needs a way to interact with you on turn 0 to slow you down/stop you, that if they weren't able to do so, they would just lose on their first turn. The game wasn't designed to handle all the turn 1 plays someone can do; it's mostly a problem of legacy design.... It's possible that links were supposed to solve this problem, since you used to NEED a link monsters before you could regurgitate your entire hand onto the board, but people didn't like that solution, so the new one was flooding the game with hand traps (and now we've seen where that has lead us).
There may be a solution in creating some sort of extra deck monster sink. Like, maybe they could either make more extra deck monsters that give the best effects if you use 2-3 extra deck monster in creation, or another better solution (than hand traps and turn 0 interaction) could be creating another summoning type that acts as an extra deck monster sink also.
The only time you could safely ban handtraps like nib or ash is when the spam is taken care of. The game needs to be in a more solid mechanical state before that happens, otherwise decks like snake eyes are ridiculous and unstoppable.
"game needs to be in a more solid mechanical state before that happens"
but how do you make that a reality without a reset of the game or the introdution of rotation?
I think you are sugesting a new master rule but that would only make things more complex.
@@goncaloferreira6429 I am suggesting a new master rule, but not one that introduces a mechanic that would create a summoning mechanic for the sake of it, but one that introduces one that would act like a sink for already introduced summoning mechanics. Like josh said, hand traps are a bandaid; to fix the problem, you need to change the game itself before hand traps could be gotten rid of.
As far as complexity goes, while I would like the game to be less complex, Josh is right, we do have time wizard for a less complex game state... And I believe there are ways a game designer could add a new mechanic to reduce already existing mechanics to make them less complex.
@@goncaloferreira6429 I also like the idea where they just change the game to where, first person goes first, then second person plays to where first and second person just can't interact yet, then on the third turn (first persons second turn), that is when the interaction begins... That way you don't have to play into a board going second, you just make a board while your opponent already has one.... Not entirely sure how games would go with those rules, but then also handtraps aren't necessary in the game anymore.
@@Camelotsmoon i believe you are in the camp of "i like the game as it is but would change a few things to make it more enjoyable to me."
with that the game will never reach a good place.
@@Camelotsmoon crazy idea. but at least not a regurgitation of old ideas.
Remember full power Tearlaments Ishizu? With that deck, it really doesn't matter who goes first, most of the time both players get to play the game regardless. The question is how can Konami create decks with those characteristics but that are not tier zero so it's fun for everyone and not just to the people playing the mirror match. I don't see a problem with more handtraps as long as they are for the specific archetypes, like Havnis.
They need to purge all these generic cards really. Tear games were fun when they made tears. As soon as dweller etc hit the field it was boring again
just make all 1 card starter arctype locked, make all omni negate arctype lock, increase the min and max deck size by 20, make the LP 12000~15000
The problem is players don't want an interactive game of Yugioh.
The bulk of Yugioh archetypes and support cards are more interested in preventing any player interaction for the follow up OTK, and if a deck is highly interactive with the board, it usually steamrolls every other strat.
@@Spooggy1999totally agree with you and the original comment. The moment Dweller and turn 0 Winda hit the board Tear mirrors became extremely toxic. Although I disagree a bit with having both Shuffler + Millers + Orange Light, Havnis and Tear Kash are perfectly balanced to the point if every deck had similar in engine "handtraps" the advantage of going first would be severely limited.
Labrynth in my opinion is the perfected idea of that concept. You give up a 3 card combo just for a pop and very good followup turn 0, and in 3-4 card combos you may even set up a trap as well. But this loses hard to Ash/Belle and is only just a pop. A good Havnis mill could escalate into Keleido spin + Winda/Dragostapelia/Rulkalos + the followup from Kitkalos then bonus points for Shufflers while millers could outright ruin a strategy on the spot.
Tears despite being tier 0 were insanely fun, ever since their release I wished there were more decks that play almost exclusively engine and have in-engine outs and handtraps
A good feature to put in salamangreat is when using field spell to link summon, the tribute will return to the extra deck instead. I think this is the best way to try fixing the extra deck problem.
I think we should look at decks like Lab and Unchained that are designed to win over a couple of turns (and I guess Runick) and when decks become able to OTK too consistently through boards, they should start removing OTK tools that are too problematic
Love how the video starts with a combo handi yapping in his chat about probably the most fair handtrap in the game
How do you feel about archetypes with in-engine interaction on turn 1?
I’m a big fan of the fact that High Kirin can summon itself on the opponent’s turn going second.
Do you think maybe if more decks had impactful versions of this, it could decrease the NEED for 12 hand traps while also letting you do something other than fill those slots w/ board breakers?
That also makes worth running multiple Garunix for a potential in engine pop and even a negate if you opened Arvata or Rangbali. They don't care about Skill Drain and even Summon Limit.
But of course this healthy version isn't tier 0 because it is fair, instead we have wombo combo snakes with bare minimum Fire King engine (if any)
Labrynth without turn skip traps that should be banned is also a good example, requiring 2-3 card combos for just a pop.
Havnis without Shufflers/Millers and turn 0 Winda is also fine even though it can escalate quickly into chaos.
All these are good card design helping with going second as well as giving archetypes in engine tools instead of relying on staple handtraps
They shouldn't be necessary and we saw how oppressive they were in Tear with Havniss. No one likes the opponent comboing on what should be your turn. It and interacting with private information zones like the deck and hand are some of the least enjoyed play patterns in TCGs.
@@geek593Havnis was overbearing because tear as a deck was miles above the rest of the competition. Tear Ishizu as a whole was too much of a power gap compared to the rest of the meta, not just havnis.
In archetype havnis like cards depending on the meta can be very good for the game because they can reduce the disadvantage of going second. Like the rescue ace monsters that activate in hand during opponent's turn allows you to actually have some plays while going second.
Personally havnis like cards could be a great step moving forward.
@@sammydray5919tear was just ahead of its time but it really was the most interactive yugioh we've had in a while (if you were playing mirrors). Labrynth is another example of a deck that plays turn 0. I really have no problem with these kinds of decks as long as it keeps the game interactive. Everybody hates handtraps but they really are what keeps the game from being a coin flip battle.
@@alexygo4243 pretty much yeah
Havnis-like cards should be the design for the future. Cards that don't stop your opponent's plays, but rather enables your own plays on the opponent's turn. Labrynth has this, Rescue-Ace can do it, Kirin can for Fire King. I think Konami is trying to lean towards this design where archetypes have their own 'hand traps' to play on turn 0
Where my machina one then I'm missing dark commander Covington and dark gear frame and fortress I'd love an inherent summon monster that's gets summon from banish
This is an awful design space Konami should avoid at all costs. People don't like the opponent progressing their board state on turns that aren't their own irrespective of their opponent's actions. This is true for pretty much every TCG. It's why people disliked Altergeist, it's why people despise Floo, and it's why people hate Havniss. I really don't want Konami developing this as a design space as a new and interesting way of making the game more complicated and even less fun. At a certain point we have to ask what went wrong where we need to play what's an entire turn of gameplay in other games on the opponent's first turn before it's rolled over to ours. Playing mini turns on turn 0 is as much of a design sin as hand and deck ripping.
@@geek593People despise floo because of the addition of shifter, which it can loop, and feather storm. The barrier statue was ridiculous. If floo did not have access to those other things then people would not be as opposed to it playing on your turn.
Tear was in a similar boat. Once you added the ishizu cards, they had too much advantage they could gain from milling
@@chewdoom8415 I've heard many reasons people hate Floo. Playing its own combo again on your turn is one of the top line issues.
@@geek593 Nah man whine all you want but moving forward we NEED more cards like havnis for archetypes because they allow the going second player that actually interact during turn 1 and make their own plays. Havnis itself wasn't that big of an issue. Problem was that tear ishizu was by far the best deck on the meta so havnis just pushed it over the edge. Havnis like cards themselves aren't the issue. Reacue ace has a bunch of monsters that activate from hand during opponent's turn and they aren't really an issue.
If Konami actually wants to bridge the gap between going first and second, havnis like cards are definitely the best way to accomplish that.
Just need to make sure that the actual decks they belong too aren't too oppressive (which in tear's case happened because of the ishizu cards milling and shuffling).
All Salads need is extenders that say reveal an ED salad and it becomes that Salad by name, issue with how tight the ED for them fixed.
Inb4 master rule 6 makes the game like LOR, where both play simultaneously (example: first player normals effect resolves, 2nd player can respond on stack, then 2nd player has prio and can normal) but the 2nd player can attack first
The main issue between YGO and the other card games (since I play all 3 plus some other TCGs) is that YGOs' first turn allows for moves other TCGs have built in restrictions to. The resource systems in other card games, along with the built-in rules, prevent player one from being overpowered to the degree of YGO. The best suggestion is likely to make a Master Rule that affects which types of or the number of summons done in the first turn.
Can confirm this as a Magic Player. It’s very rare to someone pop off very hard Turn 1 in Magic outside of the non-restrictive Retro Formats. Even in Modern it’s pretty rare.
Maybe make a maxx c rule where you actually draw one card up to 10 for every special summon your opponent does.
Well Wizard101 does this mechanic. Where a certain school or “archetype” gets to purchase decks that, as you level up, give you a max limit for cards that are not school specific BUT if you get a school specific deck, non-school specific cards have a separate limit whereas the card limit for your school’s deck would be higher.
If that were applied in yugioh it would be a lot harder because it’s broken up into Archetype, Attribute, and Type support. So cards like Ash would be a limit 3 in most decks but anything Fire, Zombie, or both might be able to abuse that limit
in addition to the salamangreat stuff, i could see some other extra deck monsters having essentially a downside for filling your extra with generic boss monsters, maybe add to baronne "if the tuner used to synchro summon this card was not fleur synchron, banish one card from your extra deck face down" or something
I think a healthy change would be a Comeback List; monsters in the Extra Deck that can only be Summoned Turn 3 onwards. Put a lot of the generic behemoths on that and you have less emphasis on the 1st and 2nd turns.
I played Edison format once and it was even better going second because you could play more and use your battle phase, while going fist felt plus like set and pass
People complain Edison’s a “Three Deck Format” yet I’ve taken their Rogue Picks on multiple occasions and have come up Ontop AGAINST their meta.
Anyone who says Edison is a 3 deck format is a moron.
@@Nephalem2002Who the hell even says Edison is a 3 deck format??? You can have easily 20 decks that are competitively viable in this format, it's absolutely great.
The only thing I hate about Edison is that Royal Oppression is legal
MTG has a few "you can have as many copies as you want of this card" with some other cards that work around the card and its good
ALL DEM RATS
Crazy idea, but what if turn 1 player has no normal summon?!
Floowandereeze likes this a lot!
Ehhh not a good idea.
The problem is that their is no "problem card". The game has become what it is over decades of new card design. I personally would like to see a duel links esc ban list that doesn't prohibite certain cards, but instead certain combos.
Extra decks pendulum monsters are basically what is described. They don't go to the graveyard when they are sent there and they can be re-used.
If Salamangreat monsters were pendulum link, you could put into rotation more than 3 copies of one monster
Something that could be interesting, although would probably get confusing, is try something like Legends of Runeterra is where the turn kinda passes back and forth within a turn. Another thing that could be intesrting that others have said is implement a banlist similar to how duel links does it where you can have 1 Limited Card total, 2 Semi Limited Cards total.
Josh argued that not being able to choose to attack specific monsters in mtg is non-interactive, i would argue the opposite.
Whenever player A makes an attack then player B gets to choose if/how they block, which means player A made a decision and player B got to make a decision in response. And player A had to think about player Bs potential blocks. And thats before introducing combat tricks.
If player A could chose which monsters they attack then player B doesnt get to make any decisions.
3:58 the issue is many hand traps are stronger than placed traps.
In my opinion, the problem is not that trap effects are bad compared to hand traps or in general, but the rules of traps themself.
Trapcards are just stupidly slow for modern yugioh.
Thats hard to balance tho..
9:30 I may be wrong but perhaps this is the result of the extra deck almost becoming the attractive thing about modern yugioh, similar to early where you tribute your cards for a boss monster. It's just what the majority of the playerbase likes with it being the fuckin call of duty of card games, and Konami responds to that with making the majority of decks extra deck enabled.
I do think we need more going 2nd decks like ancient warriors or cyber dragon, or support to existing decks like such, to shake things up. Going 2nd decks are so rewarding when you find the right path to break a board as well.
It's simple: Limit Fusion / Synchro / XYZ summons to one per turn
so if I use a synchro deck like blackwing and I synchro summon and I want to use this summon to synchro to more powerful soldier then I cant? your super hot take makes no sense and is stupid same goes with the most stupid type of monsters link monsters...
If the point is that modern decks all need to get to answer nib, nib is a problem but it doesn't mean the consequences of it are not also a problem. Yu-Gi-Oh has a lot of problems, the only root cause is Konami, not some individual aspects of it.
Nibiru was a solution to a symptom if the problem, and then the symptom evolved to get around Nibiru. Calling Nibiru a problem is like calling Antibiotics a problem, they may aid in exacerbating the problem, but they aren't the problem in and of itself.
Most decks don't get to a negate before nib though and if they do they've been deemed overpowered decks like adventure tenyi with halq, shs, swordsoul had longyuan semi limited in MD bc it would access barone easily
I get where they’re coming from but I think I’d still rather have Nib in the game than not. If you’re deck can get to it’s pieces before 5 summons it’s normally (although not always) less degenerate than the combos that have to hope the opponent doesn’t have Nib.
Ok theory solution make starting hand size smaller 3 cards,boom longer games
I think Salamangreat should get an archetypal Emeral/Avarice card, and it doesn't necessarily need to be draw, but putting your ED monsters back in as a "cost" to loop them would be huge imo.
That would be cool cuz as interesting as reincarnation linking is, it's always been kinda dumb that Salamangreat players have like 7 card extra decks
@buddbrown6858 What is a Salamangreat ED that needs to run more than 15 cards? I'm very confused cuz I don't think they are all mandatory to play 🤔
@@jawdonxtrahero6673 in practice, none, but what I'm trying to say is that the fact that the deck was designed to run only 7 usable ED monsters (if pure) is what I find to be a ridiculous drawback
@buddbrown6858 oh no it's okay, I know it's everyone who is saying it, I just personally don't get it cuz you also have the field spell so you don't always need 3 ofs to achieve the Reincarnate Link, but even if you have 3 Balelynx and Sunlight, that's 6 cards and then Mirage and the new Link 4, can't think of any of the others that will come up in most situations. Maybe I need to go cook and see the issue first hand 😎
4:04 yes then id point to phantasmay as a hand trap that helps going second or looking for easy interaction - my girl - Havinis - is a "handtrap" that doesnt interrupt or fk over the opponent but instead may open up the potential for plays during your opponents turn - as such it creates interaction without decreasing the action of the other player
Cards effects that apply outside the game are a judging/ruling nightmare. Do those cards even go in the main deck, or do we introduce a new zone for passive skills a la Duel Links (and many other digital card games)? Do you have to disclose them before the game? If not, at what point do those effects activate and can you counter them? If a card expands your deck size, what happens if you side it out?
Saw someone say Tear after how the game is more fun when it's interactive.
The amount of games I played against Tear where they made Dweller before they even know what deck I'm playing was... most times I played against Tear, and most of the others just made Winda.
You can cope and say havnis solves that issue but that ignores some pretty obvious issues, like "just open Havnis" is not only effectively the same argument as "Just draw Duster" but with the added issue of "just mill good", but the fact that hand traps allow you to interact with you opponent in literally every modern format means this is not unique to Tear format, Havnis existing doesn't really add any depth of interaction beyond opening the correct hand trap, it also just doesn't even consider non Tearlament decks.
Probably a stupid question, but what if we skipped the first turn? Both players begin with a boardstate and then you go from there. Yugioh as a game is frontloaded anyway, ie you are at your most powerful the first turn. why only allow the winner of a coinflip to follow through on that potential and get to the desiered boardstate of his deck unimpeded? but as I said in the beginning, maybe this is a stupid question and cant work for reason x,y or z.
I think time turning morganite should become a passive effect for both players that starts at the start of turn 2
Contesting two normals is much harder than 1. Having a 7 card hand promotes going second cards rather than hand traps.
Each player gets a Turn-1; Board Vs. Board
What are your thoughts?
Certain cards are not live until Turn-3.
Interactivity isn't necessarily a perfect indicator of fun. Knowing literally every action and sub-step of an action can be interacted with in a thousand different ways is honestly kind of exhausting in Yugioh sometimes. Player agency is a bigger contributor to fun and interactivity gets lumped into it because Yugioh is so off the wall that interacting with the opponent mid combo is the only way you're ever going to interact in a meaningful way now. But after playing a lot of Shadowverse Evolve I'm having more fun with there being set quick effect interaction points (attack declaration and end phase) with a lot of the game's decision points happening when you're on the play. It's still extremely rewarding to play into boards since the pace of play is still determined by what your opponent throws at you but there isn't this probability exhaustion where there are hundreds of open windows every turn even on simple turns. It's also why Edison's play patterns seem to be more enjoyable for most players. The amount of brain bandwidth you need to allocate to probability calculation is drastically reduced compared to modern Yugioh which leads to more approachable and enjoyable decision trees.
Another idea, they could start either an archetype or series of cards which conditionally checks who has more cards in the deck or extra deck.
Typically as someone would pop off for their first turn, they are usually draw cards or search from the deck and summon from extra which would thin out both piles, maybe they could make a condition if the player has more cards in the deck or extra deck, the other player cannot respond with monster affects similar to DRNM. If this is drawn first, then it would be a regular spell as to it not being dead.
This would help push past several Omni negates, but even help boost pile decks which kind of was what people used to play in early game yugioh
than people start playing 41+ to maybe even 60 card decks to get the effect turn 1. if you make it just op going second effects than combo decks just find a way to play around them or entire game becomes a go second coinflip ftk turbo.
Prior the first turn player used to draw, which made going first unfair. So they made the first turn player not draw, the solution could simply be take it one step further….
Second turn player starts with 6 cards which would let them open more hand traps or more engine / board breakers so they could actually compete.
This would also boon going second strategies
12:50 having salamangreat cards in your extra deck is a down side - nice
that idea of cards with text that changes the deck building rules sounds a lot like skills from speed duels. It would be interesting to see how skills would work in tcg/ocg format, like the salamangreat skill could say something like: "At the start of the duel you can add up to 6 "Salamangreat" LINK, FUSION, XYZ or SYNCHRO monsters to your extra deck from outside your deck, for the rest of the duel you cannot special summon monsters (excluding from the extra deck) except cyberse-type monsters" That way you can add an advantage to the strategy but also a restriction that persist for the entire duel.
"Nib is a problem"
Let's see what deck exist before Nibiru...
Maybe Nibiru is a (shitty) bandaid lol
I'd argue nib is not even a band aid anymore. Powerful deck in present ygo either
1. Make a negate before 5th summon
2. Can establish a strong board even after nib
3. Don't play into nib
Nib simply don't have the impact it used to have
@@FN-170 you're missing entirely the point, nib deals with the decks that can't make this, and this make them not be the most powerful, for example, frail ftk decks, nib is one of the hand traps that prevent those decks from being good
@@F3XT Nib is a floodgate confirm!?!
@@FN-170good. Nib is such a toxic and stupid card when it’s good. Yugioh is so shit when one single card completely blows someone out. People adapted and power creep happened to play around blowout cards. Thought process and interaction is imo a better healthier game then LOL I drew my one card I win the game. Nib was created to stop the ftk boards, but those decks are also not that fun. Nibiru was a shitty bandaid. Tearlament was the best deck and most fun deck because it could play on turn zero. Interaction and thought provoking decisions at all points of the game and couldn’t be beaten by a single blowout cards most of the time. Other decks couldn’t compete which is why only tearlament was having fun lol.
@@FN-170 It's not that it doesn't have the same impact that it used to, it's that the players started playing decks or finding new tech/routes to avoid having to deal with it.
It's also true that after nib the decks boards are less likely as strong as they could be if nib didn't exist. Imagine playing knowing that Nib isn't a card they can use.
Decks that make a stronger board would trump out the current decks.
Same goes with Shifter and Droll, imagine playing Dark World knowing that the opponent doesn't have those cards.
Instantly Tier 1/0.
Going first will almost always result in a full handloop and full board. Completely Unwinnable no matter what you draw.
Going second it has way too much gas with dangers with built-in board breaking, making it unparalleled at actually playing THROUGH the whole board (forcing to play gy hate to just stand a chance).
I will always stand that Dark World has the strongest end board in the game, yet it is barely playable due to Droll and Shifter being around. Which is good thing.
I think going the Cardfight Vanguard route and Separate Eternal format into advanced format and Standard Format. This would create a format where we could start things of at a speed thats just a little faster than synchro Era and take the time to do things right and make it more interactive. This would Konami to promote new products, make a reskin of the old anime to promote new products, and make old cards better. While also making broken cards balanced. Advanced format would be everything we have now plus in the new format. Doing all of this would allow Konami to acknowledge their past mistakes and make things better while not having to change how they've been doing things in the advanced format which is supposed to be harder and more complicated.
The people who are blaming Nib but are defending cards like Ash Blossom are wild. Nib ONLY punishes someone who plays 4 monsters. It forces you to play strategically.
Ash Blossom can shut down entire turns WITHOUT allowing any normal way to avoid being stopped beyond "Just have the Out".
The difference is Nib doesn't stop you from playing, it punishes you for being greedy. Ash punishes players for trying to simply play the game.
Nibiru is the answer to the problem that was combo decks. Baronne was the answer to the problem that was Nibiru. In turn, Baronne then becomes a problem. Remove Baronne and Nibiru just becomes the problem again. Remove Nibiru and Baronne continues to be a problem. Yugioh is just a string of problems being fixed by problems.
Salamangreat is just Extradeck Gemini
I think I know how to solve it, in master dule they had a nibiru event where everybody would have access to a nibiru on the first turn It immensely slowed down the game. What if we had a rule that you get a small side deck of five non-archetype cards that you can use only on the first turn.
I think the worst thing is when the first player does a ton of stuff turn 1, and then does the same amount during the opponent's turn as well.
If your opponent has activated an effect from the hand this turn, you can activate this card from your hand: Banish 3 random cards from your extra deck, then negate that opponents activation.
A lot of this is dependent on what you mean by interactive when it comes to YuGiOh. That was the same stance some said when it came to the tearlament/ishizu decks that came out. I would say allowing for interactions like negates, counters, actual traps (not just hand traps) and things that made the OG YuGiOh so fun. Nowadays we have the problem decks like snake-eyes, purrley and Labrynth that make me not even want to play the game since it's the majority of what I see around now.
My take on the tight extra deck is for every extra 10 cards in the maindeck you play, you get 3 extra slots in your extra deck. 50 cards = 18, 60 = 21
To help going 2nd: both players draw during each draw phase (but not turn player during turn 1), but the non turn player has to return a card from their hand to the deck. This condition can only be met if you control no cards. The last part is to prevent turn 1 player from abusing this during going 2nd player's turn and mulligan into more ht's.
My idea for making Yugioh more interactive is a new Master Rule. The person going second gets a mulligan to help fix their hand. This way hand traps become more useful as you can mulligan for them to help prepare for the turn one strategies. Also floodgates have to go
The real problem is "PowerCreep" ! For more selling, Konami have to make more powerful cards, nowadays cards can negate, destroy, banish and tuto at the same time....
Just make balance Archetype that's not strong in every aspects of the game. For playing right now you have to choose your clan, full handtraps or Negate or floodgate or stun or Toxic.
My only real problem with Yugioh is how long I have to wait just to lose because I dont have an out. If their was somehow a way for people to make their super boards faster, I would have more fun trying to find a way to break it.
The idea of having flex slots between side and extra isn't bad, but it cannot be THAT flexible. Make it so that your side deck can be a max of 20 cards and the extra can be between 0 and 15, your total between the 2 cannot be more than 30. That way you can reduce your extra deck by 5 to have 5 more slots for siding, but also combo decks that go through a lot of their extra deck would still be just as restricted as they are now, meaning siding as a whole would become more meaningful for lower powered decks and those only.
Duel links already does what Josh is asking here, they allow you to have skills that bypass the game's rules and add more stuff to your extra deck for free past the limit, or change the rules by adding MR3 pendulum zones, or starting the game with specific cards in your hand or graveyard, yugioh TCG could use some more interesting mechanics like that
what if; you couldn't special summon on your first turn AND the player going 2nd cant attack on his first turn?
weird idea i know
The speed and power creep have took a toll on the game, and made going first really powerful. Sometimes I think putting negates on monsters was a mistake or maybe giving decks too much consistency was the problem. I don't think there's a simple answer to the question. I'd like to see more hand traps that are traps or spells and not monsters, and more going second archetypes or grind archetypes, but nobody likes stun. Stun is essentially stopping the opponent from playing.
It'd be cool if both players could just build their best board and go after each other. Maybe that's my fault for liking classic beat down or banishing with dark magician. I do regret spending all those craft points on a dark magician deck when I first started playing master duel. Could we try shrinking the extra deck, maybe make the extra deck toolbox a bit smaller, but in exchange give us a bigger side deck, so you can side deck extra deck cards for different matches if you depend a lot on the extra deck and for decks that don't care about the extra deck, they can just side in more main deck cards. I like the idea of duplicates not counting towards the extra deck limit, could shrink the size by just shrinking the amount of cards with different names that can be in the extra deck. You could only have five extra deck cards with different names, but you can have three of each unless limited or semi-limited. So it'd still be fifteen total cards.
I'm not a pro, I'm just looking at it from a casual player perspective, I don't really have that much fun playing. Every now and then I will get a good, interactive match with my opponent. I'd just like to see konami try some things to change the game from the ground up, but nothing so drastic it'll involve a complete reset. Just change a rule or make some unique house rules or formats.
I think in an ideal world you wouldn't need cards like Nib, Lightning Storm, etc. to be able to go second. Ideally, the ceiling of combo decks would be a couple interruptions, but not enough to completely stop your opponent from playing the game right out the gate. Nib, Lightning Storm, and friends are all just band aid solutions to this problem and, as a result, cards like Baron get reprinted to help decks that auto lose to cards like Nib. This just leads to the best decks being ones that can make an early Baron or play around Nib and other cards very well. Now, all of a sudden, Baron is the issue instead of Nib. Rinse and repeat.
Imagine a new Master Rule, that both Players play their turns simultaneously. A bit like runeterra, where you pass prio and the enemy can summon a monster/activate something
Would be super crazy to see how that would work
It would be like trying to traffic in India. Bad idea
Only problem I see with nib is them making a deck now that summon negates for it early or have already set up their stuff before the 5 summon. Nib is definitely not a bann worth card tho
People that say YGO is good are Kings of Cope
I think the main issues are: (1) Downtime and (2) appearance to an uninvested player.
(1) if you dont have hand traps, you dont really do anything on your opponent's first turn. Having to just sit there while they combo is annoying. Turn 2, when one player is comboing while the other is disrupting them, is really fun and interesting. The game needs either shorter combos or more hand traps.
(2) appearances. I think Yugioh has absolutely no in-road for new players to "Get" the fun part of the game. I think the tcg needs an archetype for new players to learn combo: an archetype of a bunch of main deck extenders with exactly the same effect to summon themselves, and link monsters with simple effects that allow for disruption. Salamangreat is really fun, but walking a new player through combo lines is boring and awful. There needs to be a deck with unreasonably simple combo lines.
Here's a solution. Put a natural limit on how many "special" summons a player can do per turn in the rules. If they do that then need for floodgate cards, hand traps, etc won't be so prevalent and new cards won't be so bottled necked into being the same old shit with a different name slapped on it. Also they need to stop creating cards that "recycle" themselves, there needs to be a point in the game when you use a resource then that's it.
i also think magics ability to pull cards from side would help the exdeck problem as you could have the salads add a card from side to ex on summon or when sent to grave for their own summon, maybe they can add themselves as a player action(not effect, no chain) to the ex from side if theres an open slot and/or if a copy of the card is already on field, or maybe they can be straight up summoned from side if a copy of the card is used for the link summon. this concept apllies for purrely too especially in the ghostrick version since every ex spot is used for the combo including several copies of some cards, three to be exact for GT Angel, it would be nice if you had three differnetly named purrely xyz monsters you could swap out a fourth rank two into another (so you still have to main both rank 7 plus two rank 2s since you won't be using more than that for most games, and makes it so you have only have to dedicate 4-5 ex slots instead of 6-8, this works especially well since the point of the side deck is to slot out cards you don't need, and to slot in the ones you do, it's just now you're doing it mid game since, while you do need all the purrely xyz for full combo you don't need them becuase each one is used, you need it for each varation due to inconsistant accese
Upstartier Goblin Spell card
Draw 1 card.
A deck can have any number of cards named "Upstatier Goblin"
When people don't play upstart goblin surely having any number of it wouldn't change anything
People would just play 5 Exodia pieces and 35 copies of this, and so whoever goes first would always win
Instead of the maxx c mini game you get the droll mini game lmao
Nibiru is an issue tho - 1. the 5 summon metric says nothing about the game state - is the opponent fkting you or is it an old deck trying to get to their big beater vanila monster...
2. Nib is only interactive in the fact that it poses a chalange, like Maxx C in some sense - do you keep playing/summoning or do you want to lose*
besides that the card is a monster effect board wipe meaning
3. the cards everyone wrongfully complaint about Apo Baronne etc. people feel they need them now more then "before" - cause without a monster negate on their 5th summon they could lose the game to a sacky blow out; That doesnt mean that combo deck 123 is not making negates later in their turn sure.
4. its just part of the arms race - you have searchers so they make ashe - they make called by, they make cross out - they add Nib and then they add decks that can negate nib on 5th summon...
-> its a sacky blow out especially for lower tier decks - doesnt offer interaction instead forces you into lose lose situations - its a summon limit on 5 but also in hand...
The problem in YGO is that every good deck can realistically OTK if they're uninterrupted. And I do consider setting up 3-4 negates an OTK. This is what forces people to run turn 0 cards, so they don't lose before they even get to play. Decks are just way too powerful. They need to curb the size of the end boards that decks can make.
Unfortunately this is really difficult when every card these days says something like "you can special summon this card from your hand or GY". There's just too much material available in any given turn.
What if we just let the second turn player draw two cards?
They should draw 6 and not draw on their first turn.
They still have to wait 3minutes before they can play. The problem is more about T1
Thats one of the reasons why i enjoy more DL than MD, short turns (there are some exclusive decks). Also the skills make dead decks be playable again idk might be just my PoV
I feel like the problem with the game is that we first test how broken we can make something and then look at the results and design either bandaids or less powerfull cards that do basically 1/3 of the broken cards
For example Nibiru was released first and then some years later kurikara,but nib still is a prefered card in comparison to kurikara
I think decks should just build more engine endboards and also should be able to break boards in engine, or more like "break" boards. They should just be able to weaken the enemies board so you can enter a mid to end game scenario which is more skill dependent. Tearlament did this really well and you don't even need Havnis or Kelbek or Orange Light for that; those cards increased the back and forth of course, but you can design cards where that isn't the main focus. Maybe more float-y effects? Or more relevant ones? Sometimes I read cards with a really strong effect and the second is almost useless. But that's my take; making decks that can go first and second, building boards with in archetype boss monsters and being able to play into boards with engine and be able to weaken the opponents board to enter the next stage of the game
I feel like going first are just too strong in modern ygo.
Going second player need to have 2+ high impact hand trap or broken board breaker + their own combo starter to compete.
But idk what is the solution for this
Its hard at this point. Konami could make newer decks that are broken going second like tenpai. Tho the problem still remains as even tenpai need bunch of handtraps to stop board from being too op they cant break it.
Best way to do it is master rule change to weaken going first a lot, but not sure what it will be to "fix" YGO. Maybe going second u start with 6 cards instead of 5? Not sure. I dont think even konami know how to fix the game rather than creating more band aids.
Going first has always been overwhelmingly powerful. That’s why they changed the draw rules in the first place
@@geiseric222 yes. But i feel now it isn't enough anymore.
Ash blossom was made to be a band aid for going first combo decks, now meta decks just doesn't care about ash
Going first not drawing is also a band aid that konami implemented but the reality is 1-card combo is so common that not drawing also doesn't matter.
The game has simply powercreep all of those band aid that its hard to make a solution other than a complete reboot i think
@@geiseric222 give some examples of the old times please.
@@goncaloferreira6429 I just gave an example? They literally changed the draw rules as a buff to going second. Because shockingly in an era dominated by trap cards being able to set your traps first is a huge advantage
What about Guarded Treasure but with no cost and perhaps even as a lingering effect like Final countdown.
So basically "During each of your Draw Phases, [you can] draw 1 more card in addition to your normal draw."
If it was mandatory it would also have the downside of decking you out faster than your opponent.
i think something that would be a good change is, cards that negate monster effects should not be negate-able by monsters period
I think I kinda get where dude is coming from. Nibiru is a "problem" in that only decks that can make a generic monster negate within 4 summons are able to to flourish, since all other decks get choked out by Nibiru.
lmao no? there are tons of decks that can play however they want without ever playing into nibiru
@@wubwubdododo5656those deck are mostly made after nibiru release they are specifically made to be able to play into nibiru without collateral damage.
What meta deck gets choked by nib?! U usually need nib with other hand traps for it to stop someone's turn
@@WholsShyShen It's not about meta decks. It's about what decks aren't even in the meta because they get choked out by nib. The existence of nib prevents some decks from ever being meta
As a HERO player I believe Nibiru is healthy for the game and should exist. Even when playing Salads I feel the same.
Never getting punished for overextending not only creates toxic boards for the going second player, it also rewards better players for not being greedy so in the end makes the game healthier.
My only argument against nib is that I can’t summon 5 and swing with Borrelsword for game if I don’t have a way around nib. Modern boards aren’t oppressive, it’s the high impact cards like a defensive nib behind them that make pushing going second worse.
Just make every deck like tear full combo on your opponents turn and the josh kelly blind 2nd lab deck that plays on your opponents first turn. If every turn is "our turn" then we can get rid of hand traps.
I personally think YGO as a game should limit special summons to a maximum of 5 per turn. Or . . .
Every full turn is the amount of special summons you are allowed. So turn 1 you can only special summon once, 2nd turn you special summon twice. Turn 3 you are allowed to special summon 3 times and so on and so on.
Or! . . . Raise the life points make them 16k or 20k.
These could honestly just be separate formats but rules like these is far more interactive. I dunno, just my opinion.
I little fix is let the guy who is going second to draw 6 cards and skip her first draw phase
what about a ramp system? Such as only 2 special summons allowed on turn 1, 3 on turn 2, 4 on turn 3, etc
the salamangreat solution would be sorta introducing duel links skills to the card game, how far are we from that happening?
How about this:
Add a new YGO rule "Both players can only set cards face-down in their first turn, and these cards can only be activated in the second turn of player 1"
With this rule, the first turn would look like this:
P1 set a monster and mabye two cards in the spell/trap zone. End turn. P2 draws, set a monster and three cards face-down. End turn. Now P1 draws and can try to make his BS while P2 can finally react with quick spells and traps
Yugioh already has the fix in rush duels..all they gotta do is decrease the filed zones so you can't special summon as much. May not be perfect, but it'd be a start to fixing the game because being able to special summon unlimted times and end with 5 big boss monsters is crazy.
09:45 Josh just explained what is skill in like duel links or vrains..
Just like Sky Striker has to exceed 8 ED limit so they just add 4 different Sky Striker Ace to ED without count as ED slot..
I think the main game needs skills like duel links and speed duels.
@@RarecuisineSaucegod-ig8bc Fuck no. Duel Links skills are obnoxious nowadays with the best decks completely going autoplay mode by their character skill alone. Like the meta of DL is now completely dictated on what op skill is running rampant that gives way too much advantage and momentum.
I genuinely cant remember when was the last time a meta deck wasn't completely reliant on its character skill.
Skills started as a decent idea but Konami as always ruined it with their power creep nonsense.
@@sammydray5919 What's bad about strong skills? More power rarely makes a deck easier to play. Shiranui with it's new busted skill is 10 times more skillful than the old backrow heavy version of it. Also sky striker is one of the best decks rn and the skill they are forced to play is literally just a handicap to make the deck fairer.
traps shouldn't have a one turn cooldown, but you can only set them during standby phase, alowing use on first turn but making them interactable, most traps don't work without some setup tho so that would limit power.
Dimensional Barrier, Different Dimension Ground, Trap Stun, Harpies Feather Storm, Magical Deflector, Judgement and the other Solemns. Traps aren’t in the best spot in modern ygo, but allowing turn 1 trap usage is just stupid
I mean Salamangreats entire gimmick just gets nullified if they can play more than 15 monsters in their extra deck so Idk
We havent had an extra deck limit increase since synchros were introduced, and even after 4 extra monster types they still havent expanded it frustrates me
The problem is spending 15-20 min a turn setting up omni negates
When it comes to exploring design space for new cards and archetypes is giving cards bonus effects when you don't play an extra deck. You can design an archetype that doesn't neccesarily needs an ED to function but has the cards that does allow it to go into the ED, but you also give them bonus effects when you don't play an ED. This way you create archetypes that can be played in 2 different ways, with both having their pros and cons.
@@user-mp1ty9yx3n Guess what archetype inspired my comment. It is something Konami should be exploring more outside of Monarchs. Change up the way people build their decks a bit by adding conditional pros to cards