The Great Smurf Debate feat. Awkward, Spilo & ioStux
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
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Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
1:43 Smurfing & The Ethics of Unranked To GMs
51:20 New Comp System & Matchmaking
1:03:22 Ego & Mentality Needed for Improving
1:23:27 Shift To OW2
1:37:25 Hero Reworks
1:54:20 Balancing
2:14:00 Game Dev Resources & Design Philosophy
2:31:10 Concluding Thoughts - เกม
This episode was recorded on 10/02/23. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_) or other entertainment content from SVB on his second TH-cam channel the SVB-Side: www.youtube.com/@SVB-Side
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Thank you
Crazy how you recorded this on October 2nd, 2023.
@@jeffe2267 he’s British he puts the month after the day
@@warrenhastings5592 lmao I didnt even knew about the
mm/dd/yyyy format, google says that date format is only used in the US and in a few places in Canada, The more you know.
@@jeffe2267 crazy how americans don’t format the date in chronological order tbh
SVB: So, what do you guys think about smurfing?
Awkward: I would get in the ring with Mike Tyson.
Spilo: Was it Immanuel Kant who expounded the theory of utilitarianism?
ioStux: If I threw a fruit at a child and gave you 500 dollars, you'd think it was lit AF.
Oh my god lmfao
I prefer BBall with MJ, any day
Good one.
"If I throw a banana at a kid, but give $500 to the guy standing next to me... of course he's gonna think that banana throw was lit!" -IoStux 😂😂😂
I mean he is right
And he was so ready with it lmao
"Samito treats every game like it's OWL grand finals" Fucking true LMFAO
Everytime Spilo opens his mouth I'm like please Blizzard give a job to this man!
Real
I haven't even watched the video yet and I completely agree with you.
The amount of times the subject diverted from the main point and SVB kept the discussion to it (and in a more respectful and empathetic point of view)... All I can say is SVB is the GOAT of OW content
my boy is on top of it with the hosting stuff, they not getting off topic with him as host
Jane is like Michael Jordan and SVB is like Kobe
I don’t catch his stream much but he’s an excellent podcast host. He’s does a great job of letting everyone get their point across, provides/asks for clarification when it’s needed, and isn’t afraid to push back when things get derailed or go too far. SVB on the owl desk when
Awkward's logic is basically "the beatings will continue until morale improves."
Yeah, I was gonna comment on that but I guess I’ll just piggyback on your comment lol. I really disagreed with the guys opinion on the subject and thought it was really negative and harsh.
@@logancutler6267 hes gonna defend that mindset because he is constantly doing unranked to GM to educational videos. I like Awkward but unranked to GM is just smurfing
@@DriplessShrimp how about when in the same exact unranked to gm series where he maybe stomps noobs for the first hour or 2, but as soon as he gets to mid Plat be starts playing in GM lobbies? And still ends up with above 80% winrate on the game when most games were played in GM mmr? You must only watch the first 10 minutes of his unranked to GM 😂 OF COURSE he's playing with bronze there. The point is to show you that the way of playing literally changes nothing from Bronze to GM. As long as you do everything right fundamentally from the start you will climb.
@@J.R.Swish1smurfing, right.
@@J.R.Swish1 yea, exactly, smurfing
"Hey there's ways to do educational content without ruining someone's ranked game"
"But I want to ruin it"
Well shit got me there
I think super in one of his videos said it perfectly “you can still educate people in your own rank and if you cared about the educational part and not just shitting on lower rank players then you’d do it in your rank instead of gold”
Yes he did
Flats said something similar
Their teammates would also be Gm which they are not in gold ranks.
hard disagree. awkward walking us through his gameplay in MY elo has been the best help I’ve ever had in OW.
The SvB point about ppl demanding to see it in those low ranks is legit. These guys chats are full of that.
That being said, I really only think a couple of the streamers make valuable content this way and even then I think they do it too much
Bottom line: All players deserve to compete at their respective skill level. I don’t see how that is even debatable. No metal rank player is queuing competitive to face the best players in the world
awkwards ego is too big for him to live in reality.
Exactly. To put it simply, stay in your lane. If the game puts you at GM then stick in those lobbies, not try to capitalize off of easy views by stomping worse players.
True. But too many people like watching unranked to GM and too many people complain about ELO hell which doesnt exist. So...hence the unranked to GM series.
The problem is smurfs. You get real pros, its hype.
Absolutely, roles are mirrored and the max variance should be 500-750sr. We need to see lobby ratings and players ranks as well.
Really liked Spilo's opening points. I don't inherently mind the odd smurf passing through my rank on the way to somewhere else, I think it evens out on W-L because you get carried about the same amount as stomped. But I don't learn anything from either of those types of games, and if they happen too often, then it makes it really confusing to figure out what is going wrong, what is going right, what is and isn't in your control. Right now in OW2 it happens sometimes, maybe once a night, but it's not a significant amount of games. Towards the end of OW1 I learned absolutely nothing except a bunch of bad habits probably because on console there were so many alt accounts that you had absolutely no idea why you won or lost as much as like 50% of your games because it was hard to say if you just had someone popping off, or if it was a masters smurf ranking an account.
Totally agree. The smurfing is much less of a problem in OW2. However, statistically you are more likely to have a smurf on the enemy team than your own if you aren't smurfing yourself, because of how math works.
Spilo Awkward AND Stux, 2019 me smiling watching this takes me back to the old days ;-;
;-;
iostux and spilo on the same podcast? this gonna be fire
26:30, as someone who is usually "bad at video games" I do take being gold (average) as a win. I would still like to climb higher but I appreciate SVB holding a candle for the no-aim gang.
Iostux is on another level of thinking , hes got a great understanding of low level play
Yeah seems smart. I’d like to see more of him on the show.
Listening on podcasts and wanted to jump in:
About the Mike Tyson analogy. A smurf in comp is not like getting into a sparring ring with Mike Tyson, it's like Mike Tyson enrolling into a highschool boxing tournament to "educate" the participants and saying "i'll be careful not to hurt them". Some would love it, few would learn from it, but the tournament would no longer be a tournament.
About agency: the exact analogy is that while you're in your peak comp, I hack your computer and start changing your mouse sensitivity randomly... and then presenting that as teaching you about internet security. You have lost all agency, the thing you were doing is made impossible for you, and some random person has decided for you what you'll be learning today.
There's still a big problem with the Tyson analogy. In your scenario, all of the players have lost their one chance to play and the whole event is ruined. However, each person Awkward encounters in an unranked to GM will only lose that ONE game, and then continue on as normal. There's nothing stopping them from winning each game after that. Getting smurfed in one game sucks, but in terms of an educational unranked to GM, it's worth it for those players to suffer ONE game for WAY more people to benefit from Awkward's content. I say this as a Plat player who gets just as annoyed when there's an enemy smurf as anyone else.
@@thedeadice6121Honestly, Awkward could just say that he's a content creator, and he's smurfing not for ego but for content to both entertain and educate. That would be fine explaination.
But he's trying to justify why meeting smurfs in matches is not that bad, which is annoying. Some people do have limited time in their day to play, I usually have time for three or four matches a day. If one of those is against a smurf that I have no chance to beat, and skill gap is too big for me to learn anything from playing against them, that is my loss.
Enough experiences like that in short time span, I drop the game and move to something different.
I haven't dropped OW yet, but I stopped playing comp a while back. But I wonder how many people did dropped the game because of smurfs. OW is steadily loosing players after all, and Blizzard wasn't exactly doing much to stop that.
I feel like community should at least understand that some practices like smurfing lead to self sabotage in the long run.
@@nihili4196 You'd be surprised how much you can learn if you really apply yourself in something that might seem very out of your depth initially.
@@Yusuf-sy6rb that would work only if you're in correct headspace for it.
But if you are randomly against player so out of your league, you often can't even tell if he's good or cheating, and if you can't play multiple matches against him knowing that he's just better....
That's not a good argument.
A lot of people come to play to unwind. They have limited time and so there is only handful of matches per day average person will play. Most people don't want learning exercise, they want balanced match.
On the flip side, I can't count how many GM players complain when they have a diamond on their team. When is it ok and when isn't it ok? There are two sides to the coin.
I hate to say this but for someone who makes educational content Awkward shows a heavy amount of disregard for people he is making this content for. A lot of his points seemed to be chosen to be disingenuous. No I don't want to stomp people in my games but I also don't want to be stomped. Close games where I can go head to head with the enemy team are what I would hope for. I'm a new player and I decided I wanted to try to get better at overwatch which is how I found his series the Ana and Kiriko ones really helped me. I finally got my placements done in season 3 I was placed in bronze 3. I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you why I don't like playing with or against smurfs. I want to compete with other people around my skill level(bronze, silver, gold) I don't want to play with people who are leagues better than me. It's demoralizing why even try at that point. I'm ok with a challenge but not something that is entirely unwinnable. I think IoStux is right that it does ruin the game at a certain point.
I know what awkward is trying to put out there, he has a winners mentality and leaves sympathy at the door. I think the others got this, I could tell from svbs and spilos responses they actually agree but we’re less abrupt. And I think a lot of players, even those in the comments here, don’t understand this. When you’re a winner, you earn it, you started at the bottom but put in more than everyone else and so they have little sympathy or consideration for people who just quit the game because they’re demoralised. It happens, I agree, just move on and go next, or go again tomorrow.
As someone who smurfed on tank at max 500 sr below my actual rank back in ow1 I agree with you.
The reason I started smurfing in the first place was because when I was tired and my medication for my ADD would run out I would play soo much worse then I was actually caple of and I would unintentionally just throw half the games.
As someone who hated smurfs for ruining my games I made rules, no shit talk, no playing lower then 500 sr below my actual rank and no throwing the games or shitting on people or spawn camping.
I would play like the 2300 sr I was supposed to be playing at, I wouldn't play like a 2800-2900+
If someone did find out I was smurfing (the did 4 times out of around 50 games I smurfed for) I would say I'm sorry not my intention to ruinen your game, I'm just playing without needing to think about stuff as much because I'm tired af.
Whenever I got kings row and I would play zarya I would intentionally waste personal bubbles to give people a chance to kill me, I wouldn't offangle or flank through hotel with 70 charge and 2tap a ana. I would just play next to my rein and wouldn't push up unless others did.
All in all I just played with my brain turned off for 90% of the game without shitting on people.
Whenever there was a enemy smurf and he was either dominating people or my team couldn't deal with him then yes I would tbag him and hoped he got mad and focused me. And then yes I would maybe spawncamp him but I would let everyone else alone.
During those games I did teach my teammates things like when to push highgrounds or ask to save ultimates for this play or that so that they could get more value out of their game
Whenever a enemy team was struggling (not because of me) I would offer them tips like push highgrounds or route via there to save shield etc.
Aka not everyone is a ass when smurfing not everyone is out to dominate ppl their games. I learned to play different tanks better while playing in those lower ranks.
Awkward said in the same debate that it’s a waste of time to play on a lower ranked account against low ranked players but also that he has hardly played on his high elo main account. Like ?
I hate to break it to you, but you aren’t getting smurfs in your bronze/silver games. Your MMR is way to low to be playing against diamond+ players. You are playing against the players you actually said you wanted to, bronze,silver, gold. At bronze 3 you aren’t seeing many golds, and unranked to gm smurfs start at high gold. It’s extremely rare you will get a masters level player smurfing in bronze. In ow1 I would agree, but the overwatch 2 matchmaking isn’t based on SR, it’s matched by MMR.
@@PoohOnYourShoe this isn't an Overwatch specific problem. I never said I had smurfs in my Overwatch games. I said I don't want them there. For context I'm an MMO and Looter shooter player those are my main games. Overwatch is what I play in between patches. I am already aware where my priorities lie and I already know I will never be higher than plat. That being said if I wanted to go play unbalanced PvP I would play MMOs for that. MMR systems still take time to put you where you are supposed to be though I think you are forgetting other games still use this system. I would still say I put at least 20 hours into Overwatch a week on average.
I love when you bring new people on the podcast
YO IoStux and Spilo in the same podcast :) Made my day, I'm listen to the whole thing as I fall asleep
30 min in and I didn't fully agree with some of Awkward's points, but he brought up some very valid points and I now understand where he is coming from.
Crazy how nuanced peoples viewpoints can be and how much more we can understand each other when we can calmly discuss it instead of arguing on a platform that limits the number of words you can use to communicate.
Thank you SVB for making the podcast and being a calm voice of equilibrium. Generally, I find it very weird to thank someone for creating a TH-cam video, but I genuinely found this incredibly insightful for a reason completely unrelated to Overwatch!
Imagine LeBron James justifying why he has to posterize kids at the YMCA for his "unkranked to Pro" series. "I'm teaching them!"
Holy hell yall soft
@@Funfun6000 No we're joking about how laughable the logic is. You're soft it seems you cant take a joke
@@ironman1458 lol
@@Funfun6000 So you think lebron should go beat up on some kids?
That would work if lebron james had the same body as you. top 500 and bronze have the exact same character.
36:30 I would like to suggest that people like watching unranked to GM because it's part of the hero fantasy, seeing the character perform at a top level and stomp on other players. This can help anyone rationalize their hero pick.
I feel like the big point awkward is missing is that most players have jobs, and want to just play a few matches after work. I hear the argument for playing quickplay (which is all I play now), but if a silver or gold player plays against a smurf they are going to just be done for the day.
And the game is certainly more rewarding when playing even matches in comp, so bronze and silver players shouldn't have to stick to quickplay. They have ranks that low for a reason!
The debate is skewed towards all of the negative points though. Imagine if you're coming home from work and just want to fuck around for fun. How would that be fun to your teammates who might be trying hard because they want to rank up? That's why quick play and arcade is there.
@@Blehs1234 Are you saying only full time streamers and pro players should play comp? I don’t want to twist your words, but like 99% of the player base have jobs or school and game is just for entertainment regardless of what mode they play. Trying hard while playing games is like trying hard when playing basketball with your friends or pick up games, it is a totally different thing to sign up for some hard core training while you just get rolled by pro basketball players. People didn’t signed up for this when they open a video game.
@@azura8675 My point is if you join a bball pickup game, you're expected to play to win. If you don't want to try and just want to shoot around, go to another court. The opposing points im seeing are all saying that everyone should be allowed to play in competitive pickup games. Whilst this is true, nobody will like it if you arent playing to win.
Everyone talks about their own experience being ruined by smurfs and they just want to have a fun experience. But this applies just as much to those who are ruining everyone else's experience when they play competitive and arent trying to win because theyre only playing for fun.
@@Blehs1234 Sure I don’t disagree with you. That’s why throwing and game sabotage is reportable. But that has nothing to do with the discussion here. You don’t need to throw your games just because you play games for entertainment. Of course most people who queue comp see winning as a source of entertainment and that’s why they play and try to win. This doesn’t mean they agree to play against players that they have no chance winning against or they enjoy such experience.
Awkward: I'm actually *_against_* smurfing, I only do it because it profits me financially!
To be fair to him, and not everyone agrees with this, but the unranked to gm is really educational. I personally have learned a shit ton from his Ana one more than I have watching anyone else.
@@McLovin-Chan You can learn a lot from them but tbh you'd probably learn more from watching him play at his actual rank and explain things lol, its just unranked to gm is easier to consume / more marketable than someone reviewing their ranked games. I guess it shows in bronze you really can win by just being better but does that really teach anything important about the game or just show how bronze is really just what you thought it was
@@McLovin-Chan I've never seen a single person able to explain why he can't just teach and play at GM. If the mechanics and explanation are what makes it great then he can do it at his rank.
@@CZProductions because the way the game is played at each level is completely different. If you're good, you can more easily have a solo mindset and carry games with a high win %. In higher ranks, that solo playstyle would likely have a lower win% so you have to adapt more of a team play style. That's the one of the big reasons why metal rank support players do all they can to support their team and play the game "the right way" but still get hardstuck - that playstyle works better in higher ranks.
@@CZProductions sure he can do that too, but seeing what he would do in a situation that I would also be in (garbage dps, feeding tank, getting dove by the whole team,etc), is the thing that really helps me. Things like that aren’t common in top level lobbies where everyone is playing to near perfection. Not saying I wouldn’t learn anything from that, but seeing how he reacts to different things that I also deal with is what helps.
You can't learn anything from a Widow Smurf that kills you instantly out of a peak FROM SPAWN
every map has more than one spawn door
@@T1J then the Zenyatta/Baptiste/Soldier/Hanzo/McCree/Ashe/Sojourn kill you
I learn when I'm playing a Widow i need to respect.
You chose to not learn. You could of used some rational thinking and go: "Okay, let's not peek that corner, and go another route." Overwatch maps has 2-3 and sometimes even four ways to progress.
Evolve and adapt, or die - by a widow smurf that's hard scoping the same corner that lemmings like you tunnel vision into.
@@mengyg brother if I'm not on the objective I'm hiding from a peaking widow, I know how to adapt but hypothetically NO NOT HYPOTHETICALLY BUT THE REALITY IS 1-4 of your teammates don't follow you towards the same safe path to the objective. Earlier today I was playing Mercy to blue beam my Rein and no matter what happened to everybody they all tunnel visioned but I snuck around Shambali right cliff side and solo pushed point about 10 feet before Soldier ran to me and I pistoled him while avoiding the pocketed PC Smurf Widow with 53 and 1... I KNOW WHAT IM SAYING MAN, and I'm telling you FROM EXPERIENCE that even if one person can successfully get out of Spawn from a Smurf Widow not everybody else on the team can.....and this was QP.....on Xbox....so please stop saying "LOL GIT GUD SKIL ISSU" because Overwatch 2 QuickPay is still a team game...
Unranked to GM ruins every game on the way up the ladder. They're also just boring, easy content for streamers.
Edit: 11:45. Man is unhinged. "If I destroy a gold lobby, it's fine. It was only one game." Multiply it times all the other unranked to gm streamers and people who try it off-stream and you ruin the integrity of the ladder experience. Why should I play ladder if people will constantly be multiple ranks below their main account? I am Master 2 btw so I'm no noob, but I don't want to play against Super every match.
Imagine doing consistent UR2GM then complaining to Blizzard about matchmaking and competitive integrity 👎🏾
i wouldnt be the level of skill i am currently if it wasnt for the smurfs i faced, your average player wont learn and say "gg go next smurf" instead of identifying why they are dying even if its just a mechanics diff
you should WANT to be playing against super every game that session of facing rank 1 tank every game will be a better learning experience then 80 hours of ranked against shit masters players
@@duraemakye1384 what's the point of having a rank then if I am playing against rank 1 every match when I'm not even top 500? The whole point of making a ladder system is to simulate a climb. That's why it's called a ladder. You don't just hit the top rung on your first step, you have to exert some effort to reach the top and the cumulative effort to reach the top is significantly higher than the first rung.
@yoshirox4eva you play ranked to improve your skill to climb... not the other way around, after learning from the games against rank 1 you will in turn start climbing
@@duraemakye1384 so put kindergartners in college sure 1 or 2 people will get it but 99% will fail an quit
I would love a Great Moira Debate - get some top 500 Moira players get arxuk, Tesla and Nolan to discuss/defend Moira.
You can't just have moira players, you gotta have some moira haters too. Bring in samito and 2 moira players
@@agenzmain6146 I thnk we've heard more than enough from Samito at this point.
Wait there top 500 Moria players?
Please no
I second, third, fourth and fifth this. Pls, Moira Debate 🙏
I think Awkward's claim that Comp queue is for people who want to get better isn't accurate. Clearly, the person queueing as a smurf doesn't care about getting better when they are queuing.
The main point of queueing for Competitive is so that you can expect a relatively balanced match. Getting better at the game is something that can happen in any mode, but Competitive is the mode that places the largest emphasis on having balanced teams. When you smurf, the system is incapable of creating a balanced game. You are adjusting the experience for 9 other players just because you don't want to play on your main account.
Not only is Awkward's claim inaccurate, when asked if matchmaking is good, he said he couldn't comment since he only does unranked to gm and barely plays at his actual rank. So why does HE not take ranked seriously as a grind to become better. It's just about the money. Such hypocrisy.
You are agreeing with him. Awkward said that smurfs are not doing anything to improve so smurfing yourself is bad, he us arguing that you can take something out of getting smurfed on
and quickplay uses the same mm system that comp does, so playing quickplay gives you the same even playing field comp does
I think everyone on the podcast was a bit more nuanced with their takes than you'd think, and it was surprising a bit to see the OWL coaches being more sympathetic to low ranked players than I'd expect. Still, as a person who has actual physical difficulty with fine motor skills and age related reaction time slowdown, when you say "improvement," I think of the fact that I ground from Bronze to Gold, not that it's the first step on the way to t500. I personally never had the time or the energy due to work/other commitments to push for GM, and even pushing to Plat is probably the high edge of my skill cap and would take WAY too long for the value. But you still need guys like me for people who want to climb out of Gold to play against.
thank you for saying this. there are a lot of people who will never make it to a "high level" based on factors out of their control. it doesnt matter how much they believe in themselves or how much they accept the learning opportunity smurfs bring. they simply don't have the capacity to do it. i don't think i'll ever be higher than diamond (and thats a stretch) unless i get my adhd medicated which isn't something that's feasible for me right now for a variety of reasons. and it's not for lack of confidence, i'm gold right now and believe i can climb higher. it's just me being realistic with myself and not setting myself up for failure or disappointment.
What I think Awkward needs to realise is that, the people who have his mindset of looking for challenge, are the ones at the higher ranks.
And his PoV is dedicated for someone who wants to get gud and climb because for him that makes the game fun..
If your way of having fun is fooling around as the priority and getting gud is the secondary then you can just disagree to his point because there's no discussion to be had there...
But there's some facts:
1. You cannot remove smurfs in this game..
2. You can only climb by Getting Good..
So by those 2 PoV of having fun I listed pick your poison..
“Hold on let me fix the title” smruf
Damn this podcast is slept on.
Love your stuff keep at it.
This is one heck of a lineup. Way to go. This whole episode is church.
Smurfs making new accounts to play in bronze every month: the best way to improve is to challenge yourself
iron man when a gold player smurfs in bronze 1 for a single game before playing in silver lobbies
@@duraemakye1384 lol i dont care about smurfs im just pointing out the irony that a good rank system should make your games automatically challenging without smurfs arbitrarily giving one team an advantage, and the only people making their games easier intentionally is smurfs.
Don't their placements usually end up in gold/plat?
@@KayD__o Depends on the smurf, Awkward is literally one person but smurf also means people that bronze to gm (no placements at all), most smurfs dont even do it for profit/content and just bored of being hardstuck in diamond so buy a bronze account to bully noobs. Its about "smurfs" not "placements to gm series"
Thats why its funny to me, because literally the only people avoiding challenging games are smurfs. Counter logic, doesnt he still stomp gold and plat games? The point of what I said is hanging around at ranks lower than you belong inherently shows you dont even have the mindset you claim of always wanting the biggest challenge so you can improve
@@ironman1458 you're talking about different things here. Awkward doing unranked to gm is very educational and imo incredibly valuable. He's a great teacher. The people smurfing just to win games are maybe jerks but you're going to run into jerks anywhere. The amount of games where people are hard smurfing are tiny in the grand scheme of things.
I often play quick play with my bronze brother and he's constantly saying people on the other team are smurfing or cheating. It's a really bad mindset to have. He never takes game advice and never improves yet gets angry when he loses and blames it on "smurfs".
The quality of the matchmaker has vastly improved for OW2 UR2GMs in comparison to the old OW1 bronze to GMs so that way less games are affected. I think the effect of these educational videos is extremely small and their value far outweighs whatever frustration they cause to the players.
I'm one of the people who loves to have top 500 players in my game btw. I love working hard practicing, studying and watching replays to improve. I thrive off improving. If I can learn something from a game I didn't win then it was not a loss! I'm the opposite of my brother XD
As someone who has done combat sports mainly mma and bjj for 7 years, awkwards point at 3:00 regarding sparring is the dumbest comparison. When our gym has fight camps, our pro fighter dosent go 100% wailing on the other lesser skill fighters, he goes hard enough to overwhelm but not destroy someone That teaches you absolutely nothing. Also sparring is different from being in an actual COMPETITON. Just like quick play/scrims are different from a ranked division. Yes in theory if you consistently are against someone better than you, then you eventually learn however the process shouldint be learning through a GM Smurf that knows 50 mistakes you made that game and you as a lower player might only recognize half of those mistakes. Comparing it to sparring is dumb. Also no coach would let their amateur fighter/boxer take a fight against a 10-0 amateur opponent as their first fight. There’s a reason for that.
I can already tell from the title that this debate will be an interesting one
A better analogy I think for Spilo to use would be: If a athletic person went up to a more heavy set person and challenged them to a foot race. It fits more with that you’re competing against them but you’re also comfortable in your ability to win. At the end of the day we all perceive overwatch in a different way, so find the way you enjoy to play or improve or win. A great debate though, I’m thoroughly enjoying it!
Nice crew - big fan of all these lads.
I watch unranked to gms to fall asleep
I watch podcast to fall asleep.
Sometimes unranked the gyms as well😂
ahhhhh iostox is my fave coach. He taught me how to aim and how to aim during duels. I still use those tips today :')
Great episode! I really enjoy the opinions of this group and that they were able to work through debates instead of just crying about things. Thanks again SVB for doing this!
While the topic of smurfs isn't one where I think there much to debate, really enjoyed the guests of this podcast, how Spilo & IoStux, while agreeing, brought different well-argumented perspectives to highlight the many nuances there exist to Awkward's takes; a great exchange, would love to see more of this cast on other topics. It's a change from other T500 players' arrogant rambles about lower ranked players not understanding or knowing how to play the game.
I'd disagree with Spilo that Awkward's unranked to GM are educational and on the same way as A10. Awkward's unranked to GM are basically him just mechanically outing gold players, while A10 goes in depth into explaining and breaking down each rules, concepts, mindset, roles of the game, I have yet to see another content creator do that.
Anyway, thanks SVB for the great content again. You're an awesome host and your podcast always brings great food for thoughts.
A10 really does go all out with the drawing on maps, checklists and stuff haha it really is great.
Awkward's UR2GMs are amazing too tho.
In this episdoe of Group Up! Awakward smurfs on people and then gaslights them in thinking its their fault
Phone authentification was the only solution that would have solved the smurf problem once and for all. All they had to do was implement it for ranked only, and they blew it...
I guess this would also solve the hackers problem!
Phone numbers, just like bronze accounts, can be bought wholesale.
8:54 1-3 Plats in a Gold Lobby can DECIMATE GOLDS without even trying, especially on Console
On Awkward's point at around 12:44: yo, if I could eventually have the opportunity to play any of my favorite OW content creators, I would welcome it. I know I won't win, but at least I might learn something from it. Plus, the replay feature is such a powerful tool for learning. If I'm getting stomped on by a particular enemy player and I like the way they're playing, I can pull up the replay and look at things from their point of view.
Where I have a problem is similar to what Spilo is talking about regarding the basketball pugs, where it's hard to take a match seriously if no one is taking it seriously, especially when it's in a Comp match. I don't wanna go in a match and both my DPS are trying to make friends with the enemy Mei or the Symmetra is just playing basketball in spawn in Comp. Back in OW1, I was in plenty of matches (in QP) where everyone in my side had bronze or silver borders and the enemy team had all kinds of shiny-ass borders, but despite the difference in experience, we fought our damnedest and won. So, it's incredibly frustrating when people just give up mid-match, and I don't know what to do to pull people out of it. 😓
On the problem with ranked mode, one thing i think nobody is even talking about, It takes longer to level your battle pass playing ranked since most of the XP comes from challenges and half of those are something like "win 7 games in role queue" which just takes twice as long in ranked.
exactly, ive been saying how much i hate that the BP incentivizes me NOT to play ranked. i want to get my weeklies for the coins too. it can take days to get one challenge if it requires wins instead of matches played, and i need to play on a role i dont like. i also feel like im throwing since i know im shit at a certain role, but i need those coins. ive barely touched ranked since it went f2p :/
Just started watching your stuff, you are a very good host! this interview was pleasant listening, not just 3 strong personalities going on separate rants.
loved this episode man
The victim blaming is remarkable. It is one thing to say smurfing is relatively harmless because it doesn't impact a significant amount of games. It is quite another to pretend that manipulating the matchmaking system and repeatedly ruining games for 9 other people is for their benefit.
*inserts Principal Skinner meme*
I am the asshole ruining games?
No it is the 9 other players who are wrong.
Let's cut the shit, smurfing is matchmaking manipulation plain and simple. If you are creating an account for the express purpose of having the matchmaking system misrank you then you are manipulating matchmaking. Anything said after that is just an excuse to justify it.
Competitions have levels. It is like a pro basketball player joining a local amateur league then pretending it is for the benefit of the local players when they lose 20-102. For most people the 'if I am not climbing I'm failing' mindset is toxic bullshit it is insane to see it so casually accepted here.
Philosophizing smurfing is next level 😭😭😭
Everything is philosophy!
As a very, very low ranked player that stopped playing PVP games in general a few years ago, I have to admit, I love watching these podcasts and hearing the differing views, but having ioStux on was a very nice change, and to have Spilo and Awkward sharing their views was a very welcome change. I'm mainly on the OW2 train while I wait for the PVE content only, its still a very nice break every so often to hear what the PVP side is saying about what's up. Hearing these conversations in a civilized manner with decorum and absolutely zero flaming or doom and gloom is so, so wonderful, it seems that no matter where I go, there's nothing but hostility and outrage towards the game itself and the developers seem to be able to do absolutely nothing right.
I know I’ve had some hot takes but I want to shout out IoStux - such passion for the game, love it! Thanks SVB for your content! I’ll be quiet now 😅
In my view (plat 2 support) it depends on how hard someone is smurfing and if they're stacked with other smurfs. I've had solo smurfs in my game that were obviously smurfing but I still felt with team work and sweat could be beaten. And honestely you can learn a lot from those games because you will notice your mistakes that normally don't get punished. But if there's a T500 player in my lobby there is no counterplay. They can make horrible mistakes and still kill half of your team with their mechanics, you learn nothing from that. In my opinion, yes you learn more playing against better players, but not if they're more than 2 ranks above you.
this also brings up the whole queueing as a team in ranked... a team of 5 players all in vc and who have won games together before will climb all the way to gm easy unless they are absolute garbage, and really can only be beaten by another coordinated team which is extremely hard to find in ranked. you see a lot of these videos of "1 gm vs 5 bronze" or whatever and the bronzes win most games with overwhelming odds because although ow2 is about solo carry potential, team coordination can easily replace that, and its like, is that cheating? no just playing the game, and in fact thats how overwatch was designed to be, and why pro or high sr matches are a totally different game to what 99% of the playerbase deals with. you can see the comparison between smurfing and queueing as a team, its this outside force involving itself inside what is normally a vacuum and biasing it in one team's favor. but 9 times out of 10, people will say smurf is an unfair advantage but coordination and teamplay is not (even though its way stronger and more important to the point of being the be-all end-all at the highest level of gameplay).
and i know the obvious next argument is that most players, especially in the metal ranks, won't coordinate to deal with smurfs or whatever BECAUSE they're bad at the game, but then that just answers the question of why they're in the rank that they are. even if it wasn't a smurf but they were still getting rolled by one single enemy who just happened to be having a good game, they still might not coordinate and counter them anyways. smurfing is not necessarily an unfair advantage because even though individual contribution is bigger in ow2, its still a 5v5 game and operating as a team is still an unbeatable strategy--there are always ways to win vs smurfs.
Well said
This was the most eye opening podcast I've heard not only for gaming but also for ways to self improve in life. Loved it.
As you climb you will face better players, no need to play against smurfs to get better
I think this is the biggest issue with Awkward's defense of smurfs. You can't play like a Silver player to climb out of Silver. You've gotta play into better players regularly. See how they exploit your regualr mistakes and slowly build mechanics to climb. One or two instance of a significantly better player beating you doesn't rapidly make you better. I've been in colligent OW for 2 years and after years of losing to better schools with average Masters, Top 500 ranked players. Sure I've probably learned stuff from them in VoD review but it's not much better value than grinding 10 games of ranked and seeing what players at my mechanical level are doing to beat me.
@@secretlyaslug2325 Yeah, climbing is a gradual process. As you climb ranks you realize the small differences that make gold better than silver or plat better than gold, etc. How much is someone really going to learn from someone who is literally more than twice their SR stomping on them? The skill gap is too insane for a normal player to really learn from. A GM could carry in the lower ranks from mechanics alone.
Spilo is OOOZZZIINNGGG the giga Chad energy. He does not have anything to prove to anyone, only talks when he has something good to contribute, starts his points with researched data.
10/10, invite him back SVB!!!
Awkward: “how did that flanking zen kill me? Did you not hear him behind you? Do your headphones work?”
When did they give Zen footsteps? 🧐
Lol. I was thinking that too. Man floats.
SVB bro I'm at the part with the mercy changes and I'm laughing so hard I'm actually crying "here are these changes dog this will prevent mercy from pocketing" I'm dead dude. This is just plain incompetence
i would have love to see super in this podcast he has some good point about smurfing
Damn awkward really made himself look like a toxic clown here.
The Smurf is a toxic clown? Who would have thought! 😂
@@CZProductions yeah
To an extent, playing against good players will help you get better at the game, especially if you're adapting to what they're doing/improving your teamwork in the process. Even getting mismatched into a SOMEWHAT higher lobby (eg me when i was a silver playing against diamonds and being able to compete). UR-GM's where the streamer is holding back and mostly showcasing decision making is along those lines imo.
Getting stomped by someone who shouldn't be in your match, especially if they're on an oppressive hero like Widow/Sojourn (bonus points for having a Mercy pocket or are boosting a player, which will ruin y'all's games "up top" btw) gives you nothing but frustration. You're insanely punished for tiny mistakes, sometimes to the extent where you can't play the game (which goes against the vast majority of the experience you'll have had or will have when playing comp). Even though I've had a single digit number of tryharding smurfs in my games (including on my team), none of those games were enjoyable and I wouldn't wish that on anyone new to the game or trying to improve in comp.
I'm 30 mins in and it's just Awkward justifying why he should be able to ruin other people's games through smurfing.
Edit: Oh my god lol Awkward at the end of the closing thoughts says if you go from gold to plat you can also get a raise at your job lmao. Idk how he comes up with this stuff.
Yeah, he comes off really bad.
Don't forget how he says you should bully fat people to get them to lose weight.
@@jeffe2267 I lost my mind over that
@@jeffe2267 I had no clue where any of them were going with that example
@Jeff E its not wrong, people are fat based on the calories they consume, billy them to comsume less calories and gg
This is the best GU!P more like these! I mean more coaches disscussions!
When IoStux spoke about the insane Rank Portraits in LOL, i got an idea how to implement this in Overwatch:
Just use the Level Player Portraits from OW1 (or an visualy improved version) for the ingame Player portraits based on your rank.
They already made an Bronze, Silver, Gold, Plat and Diamond Portrait which look absolutley insane, but can be improved further.
I think there is a lot of potential for the higher Portaits like Masters, GM and Top 500.
Since OW1 i thought that the Portraits look better than the Rank Icons, but now that the Level Portraits no longer exist anymore, they could definitely pull this off.
Also they should rework the scoreboard:
1. Make the Ranks of others visible (which they probably will not do, because they are trying to hide their fucked up Match Maker and the difference between MMR and Visual Rank).
2. Don't show the stats of the all players. This makes the Players even more toxic than the Medal System.
2:13:12 the way you fix that issue with the playing the same maps over and over again is to add a big map pool for the bans, for example…. If there is 5 maps in the ban pool and each team gets to ban 1 map then you will still have 3 maps to possibly play instead of having a small ban pool and playing the same maps all the time
This is perhaps the most well-spoken, reflective, and nuanced episode of Group Up yet. Spilo in particular not only has great thoughts, but a very approachable dialogue to offer about all of them. Felt like I was on HealthGamerGG listening to Dr. K talk at times.
I am way too late to this Debate, but given the advantage of hindsight i can say. the real problem with smurfing is if it becomes too popular then too many people do it and it becomes a huge issue, which is roughly where it is today. It's almost a daily occurrence for people to see smurfs in lower ELO now unfortunately :(
I think most people in ranked are there to get better, but I think (like Spilo was saying), the best way to do that is against players who are sightly better than you, you can much more accurately see and take away what those players are doing better, while also still having a competitive game. Getting stomped by some GM smurf in Gold while they are doing an unranked to GM is not going to help the people in that game much at all, and it's also not going to be a good or fun game either. Think of it like this, would you play ranked if the matchmaker were so broken that it put you against GM players ALL THE TIME? Probably not, sure you might get better EVENTUALLY, but it would be a terrible experience and you would lose almost every game. I think it is a pretty naive stance to say that everyone playing a competitive video game is there to ONLY get better. That is only one aspect, having fun is just as important. We are not Overwatch League players, most of us don't aspire to be, we want to get better AND have fun.
An easy way to increase the number of times people play maps they enjoy is with a blind veto. You are offered a map, if half the players in the lobby veto the map, you are switched to a random new map (no second vote). Keeps map variety high, while still playing maps you don’t like less.
While you can learn things from playing against players close to your own rank, there's nothing to learn from someone who is actually a much higher rank than you playing on an alt/smurf/whatever you want to call it account. You won't learn anything from a Masters Widow smurfing in Gold, for example (except maybe what the inside of your team's spawn looks like since that's where you'll be spending most of your time that match), because you're not on the same level as them mechanically, mentally, or experientally. When you queue into a Competitive match in Overwatch, you expect to be playing with and against others around your rank, NOT several ranks higher.
This awkward person may think they're providing "educational content" with their unranked to GM streams, but not everyone who ends up playing against them CHOSE to be dominated by a GM for "educational content". They queued into a Competitive match expecting to play against others of their rank, not a GM player.
Blizzard claim that matches are meant to be fair; however, they actually cannot make such a claim so long as smurfs exist in the game because smurfing is not just emphatically unfair but is actually cheating as per Blizzard themselves. Smurfs have always been and will continue to be bad for Overwatch. They need to be completely and permanently excised from the game.
Unranked to GM runs do nothing but toxically inflate the ego of the GM player and ruin the experience for every other player they play against during their runs because those other players didn't CHOOSE to be a part of the spectacle. Blizzard needs to put a stop to these runs once and for all.
Awkward AND Spilo, what a treat!
I think it's simple. You join a game at a certain rank, to play with and against people at that rank. BUT, one of them very much isn't at your rank.
IoStux and Spilo carried this episode.
this podcast is so much deeper than i thought it would be. i’m just over an hour in and this discussion about ego and self improvement is really eye opening. time to go do some push-ups
Awkward is a victim of survivorship bias. You obviously can't become top 500 from gold in a month just bc of ego, you have to have good amount of skill already. There are many dedicated low rank players who are confident and do their absolute best every game and their growth hundreds times slower. And it's easy to look back from high rank and find one easy reason why they become high rank.
Spilo wiping the floor with everyone else. Prepared af, bro could write an entire scientific thesis.
Time for a part 2 after yesterday's Awkward x Questron fiasco.
55:12 that’s actually insane for a guy that preaches about playing ppl better than you 😂
Nothing more challenging than making a new account every time you reach the rank you should be playing at
That Ego of his that he loves so much is big enough that he doesn't see the need to improve anymore. He is already good enough in his eyes because he is so much better than so many people, and he constantly proves that to his ego by shitstomping people at lower ELOs on the ladder. And to his credit, as a business decision, putting in the grueling effort to improve more from the point he is currently at wouldn't net him as much profit as constantly smurfing and making more entertainment oriented content will. He's already top500 and has done semipro stuff in the past, but improving to the level of an OWL player currently isn't worth it. Why would he do that when he can effortlessly smurf and get way more attention to improve his brand that way?
You cant pass a test with study materials from 3 chapters ahead of you.
Sometimes it really feels like you are supposed to deadlift your team. Especially bad it feels when you play Mercy.
I feel like the same videos can be done from their own ranks like you can still state why and what you’re doing while in your rank
Prime example of the Audio
“You’re gonna suffer, but you’re gonna be happy about it”
There is this game Guilty Gear Strive, that does something interesting with it's rank/competitive games.
In the game, you can choose what rank you want to play, but you can only choose ranks above your own.
I think Overwatch could do something like that, like if you're plat you can play with diamonds, masters or GM's. But not with gold or below, unless people with those ranks wants to play with plats and you choose to play on plats lobby.
Of course that would require a competitive rework overall, but maybe could make the game better.
Honestly not sure how well the community would take that even if it did technically work better. FGC has a mentality closer to Awkward so getting washed isn't a big deal for most people who stick with fighting games. Plus things get complicated when you have teammates.
It would be interesting to see it in an FPS as long as they keep the lobby system out, that thing is terrible.
15:39 Boxers are notorious for padding their records, and boxers who lose early in their career are often labeled as “journeymen.” So, a young boxer would gladly spar Mike Tyson in a “quick play“ environment, but would not want to compete against him.
As someone with a psych degree, small sustainable change while acknowledging small successes is the way to get to and maintain your goal. We will ask clients how attainable their weekly goal is (0-10) and if it isn't 7 or above we make it easier
Exactly. Scaffolding is key. If it’s too difficult, they literally won’t be able to learn anything.
The problem in Overwatch with creating maps in a custom workshops from scratch, is that they would have to be fitting for the story they want to implement in the future. They would have to seperate the multiplayer from the story and have the story only be in the pve game for them to be able to implement community made maps and I dont think that that is going to happen since pve hasnt released.
This is such an unnecessary debate. There's a reason why the zone of proximal development is used for teaching. The only way to make people improve is by giving them challenges that they are just barely able to complete and pushing it further and further as they improve. It's the same basic idea for getting physically stronger as well. You can argue that unranked to GM helps people who are watching it but it has no positive effect on the people who are playing against the smurf.
Awkward's mindset only has 1 particular type of person in mind and that's the "championship" mentality that is required to dedicate yourself towards becoming the best. Not everyone who plays ranked is like that. There's genuine competitive enjoyment in simply playing against equally skilled players. Just because someone is at the rank they deserve to be, it doesn't mean that it's fine to shit on them for it. It's simply failing to understand the task of an educator/coach.
The ladder system is designed to facilitate that sort of learning. I'm a gold DPS and when I queue I will see an occasional plat or diamond every so often. These are experiences and players that I can actually learn from. A Smurf is circumventing that process in order to serve their own interests. One of those interests happens to be views on videos and streams. Guess which videos get the most views? It's always the lowest ranks. It absolutely ruins lower ranked people's games and it's disingenuous to pretend it's not a bad byproduct of "Unranked to GMs."
There are a bunch of other issues with this discussion about consent and opting into "Smurf/Mike Tyson analogy" content/games, but I'm already kinda over this. It's far too stupid and some of the arguments are basically: "Smurfs are actually, uh uh.. educators!" Nah bro..
For me there's a threshold. If I'm getting owned but feel I can learn something, or maybe win a duel once in a while, I'll just play. If I'm getting destroyed so hard I can't actually play, I stop playing and just do enough to not get kicked.
While I don't entirely agree with Awkward on unranked to gm, he has a great mindset about improving in life. No nonsense. No bullshit. Fuck your excuses. If you want something bad enough, go for it and work hard to achieve it.
I think the thing many TOP 500 players don't get. Not everyone wants to play "AD Carry" (to use MOBA terms) , not everyone is young and mechanical enough to "AD Carry" either. But that's the point of tanks and supports in LoL and Dota. They are more based around their SKILLS and positioning and thinking about opponents positioning. More tactical and less skill based. Usually their overall damage is lower to compensate. That is what OW promised, but maybe that's not where its headed IDK.
I agree is really bad getting rolled by a gm player but Im a plat 2 the reason I watch unranked to gm is because I want to see where should I position or how should I play on a rank were people are not organize and everything is a mess. Its hard to emulate a gm player on a gm lobby because its totally different world
I came for a podcast and got a cooking show 😮🧑🍳
There are definitely issues with a map vote, but they should at least allow us to choose what mode we want to play. Just have a selection under the play menu like arcade.
Spilo ended the argument in one with only one intervention. Humans like challenge, they don’t necessarily like a basically impossible challenge. It’s like going to a student who has just learned about equations and you giving them an equation with radicals and powers and even some goniometric functions, they surely won’t understand a damn thing of what they are seeing, but that doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t like a try to solve a moderately harder equation than what they have studied. Or in other words a gold player won’t understand what they are doing wrong when they get literally obliterated on, but will surely like to try to outplay a plat player for example.
Dang this was a super handsome episode
Also awkwards point regarding sparring with someone with lesser skill and learning nothing is also wrong. In mma and bjj going against lesser skilled people in practice allows you to work techniques or combos you’ve learned or haven’t been able to practice/use against people of your skill because you haven’t had time to drill it or haven’t gotten the technique/speed down. Which again is why you practice in sparring not in an actual competition unless you have the move/combo/skill down. Comparing this game to sports is a really slippery slope and not easy to make at all
If there were map pools, 5 stacks would dominate because they would pick maps they know super well as a team. This is a problem that can be remedied btw, just an important thing to note
I wonder if Awkward loves playing against aimbot. They have better mechanics so he gets to learn how to position better, how to get the best of your abilities, when's the best time to ult, etc. Lots of opportunities to learn things
Yes he does. And he even outplay cheaters.
You do know that every single cheater has worse positioning, decision making etc. than a top 500 player?
@@moojj. I wish that was all cheaters. Maybe most but some are low/GM material and cheat anyways. Either way aimbot still a huge advantage even with ok positioning
@@Doople From my experience in t500 and my friends who are also t500, there are maybe 10 cheaters max per region who have game sense and positioning above masters level
40:08 5000000 IQ metaphor btw