As a massive Zappa and CARDIACS fan I appreciate and share your passion. Your words concerning both of them were eloquent and very moving. I was fortunate enough to see Zappa live on more than one occasion but was too late to the party to see CARDIACS, a sadly missed opportunity, Tim Smith was a unique talent and a true genius.
Hi Andy, I'm with you on Cardiacs and Tim Smith. I didn't discover Cardiacs until last year, when I was 64 going on 65. I had a natural reaction: Why the hell have I not heard of these people?!?!? For them to mash together so many different influences in such an organic way is the definition of brilliance. I also appreciated seeing Robert Fripp on your list (not that you would have ignored him). In the early 70s, he saw the creative stagnation that was coming in Prog and decided to stay ahead of it while others either drowned within their chosen formulas or simply couldn't adjust. He basically made that clear in an interview for Musician Magazine he did with Joe Strummer. And those two got on really well.
Magma are a band best experienced live. Their series of DVDs shot in Paris in the mid 2000s called Mythes et Legends Vol 1 to (I think 5) which featured members of the band from their entire history are mind blowing. Vander is a freaking force. Edit: I saw them live at Slims in San Francisco and Jello Biafra of the Dead Kennedys introduced the band. Their show was a semi religious experience.
I agree although I would say "spiritual" experience rather than "religious". Not that I have anything against religion but "spiritual" is broader than "religious".
Top 10 prog visionaries - tough to do just 10 - but I'll try. Listed Alphabetically. Ian Anderson Holger Czukay Keith Emerson Robert Fripp Edgar Froese Peter Gabriel Peter Hammill Andy Latimer Vittorio Nocenzi Klaus Schulze There are MANY more - but I'll stick with this for now.
Daevid Allen!!! Delighted to see Francis Dunnery getting his dues. Frank Zappa is, without doubt, the ultimate visionary. Great list, Andy (except for the omission of the aforementioned Mr. Allen).
Well done Andy, putting Zappa number one I completely agree with. I love all those Prog artists you highlight but about 25 years ago I really discovered Zappa on a deep level and bought a ton of his albums and learned so much about other great 20th century avant garde composers because of him. Completely expanded the way I look at music and art.
Yet another brilliant video my good Sir. I was just thrilled to see Tim Smith and Cardiacs! I only stumbled upon them several years ago and just can’t get enough of them. I also loved their videos.
1- Frank Zappa 2- Christian Vander 3- Robert Fripp 4- Daniel Denis 5- Frank Wyatt 6- Dave Stewart 7- Jon Anderson 8- Todd Rundgren 9- Peter Hammill 10- Kerry Livgren
I would have included Spirit and Soft Machine as true rules breakers. I also love the Residents and Henry Cow. I realize that Andy's background and mine markedly differ. Zappa was an excellent first choice. Fripp I struggle with at times, because after the original King Crimson (ending in 1974), I actually think he recycled ideas people had pioneered earlier (even in 1974, i think of Starless as a cut and paste of earlier King Crimson ideas-I know people love that piece, but I can remember hearing Red and being disappointed that I didn't hear anything new). Brilliant guy, but brilliant at repackaging to a certain extent. Even the Discipline group and the 1990s bands were kind of recycled Soft Machine with electric guitars. So, maybe Emerson as the guy with the original vision that KC smoothed out and made commercially palatable. I love Fripp, but sometimes think he gets too much credit for innovation.
I often feel alone in my love for the Cardiacs, so it was nice to hear your effusive comments about the late Tim Smith. And you're right, there really is a winsome quality to his compositions, however complex they may get.
Great video, as soon as I saw the title I thought of Fripp and Zappa, they have to be the two greatest musical geniuses ever. Fripp never did the same thing twice, he wanted to push himself and other musicians around him. When Bruford joined Crimson Fripp told him to forget everything he'd done with Yes, Bruford had to develop a completely new style, and be continually changing it.
Hey Andy, great job on the visionary video, I really enjoyed it! May I offer an honourable mention: Radiohead. Thom York and Johnny Greenwood are incredible visionaries from the 90’s and into the new millennium. And as you have mentioned on many occasions that Radiohead is Prog. When you look at their history they start out with a mediocre AM song, but massive hit in 1993 “Creep”. Then we hear “Paranoid Android” (1997) from OK Computer which is an absolute prog classic. Then we are treated to “National Anthem” in 2000 from the amazing album “Kid A” where the instrumental section features an incredible Ornette Colman like wind solos, that crescendos to the end of the piece. In 2003 “Hail the Thief” pushes musical envelopes even further, experimenting with found sounds, odd meters and new unconventional forms. I believe that Thom York and Johnny Greenwood are worthy of honourable visionary mention. Keep up the great work! Jack G from Canada
Good callout on Todd Rundgren! A catalogue worthy of exploring. "Healing" is incredible. "A Capella" album has all the arrangements done with overdubs of just his voice! "Road to "Utopia" SHOULD have been as big as "Breakfast in America". Every song while still true to the Utopia esthetic, could have been a radio hit.
Love the list. I think Primus were one of the most progressive American rock bands ever...They didn’t sound like anyone before them...they basically created a new form of music. Super dissonant, odd time signatures, the bass is being strummed like a rhythm guitar, the Les Claypool doesn’t have much of a voice so he makes up for it by affecting all kinds of hick Americana stereotypes...like a carnival barker... or an auctioneer (without the speed) ....Uniquely American lyrics too (ballads of truck drivers, Hicks and methheads) They managed to have huge commercial success and cultural significance for a time too despite being having the least commercial sound imaginable... I think they were so progressive that they transcended the term and sadly never get talked about by prog fans much.. Currently on tour playing farewell to kings with Rush’s blessings
Looking forward to this episode Andy! You know that I would include Peter Hammill of Van der Graaf Generator ... know he many not be on your list and that is fine. Deep respect for your expert opinions.
Always a intelligent take on various music genres my current favorite channel always on point loved the Jeff beck tribute big fan of Zappa and Todd another great video 👍
You are so right to point out that Keith Emerson really understood the value of showmanship and performance art as much as the value of the music. When he starts stabbing his keyboard with knives.. fuck yeah!
Another informative and thought provoking presentation. I absolutely agree with your analysis and perspectives on Frank Zappa, Robert Fripp and Roger Waters. Bravo!
Can't agree more about Tim - he had a huge talent for making crazy chord progressions completely work! I covered Stoneage Dinosaurs this year and its almost like playing jazz when you learn it on guitar for the first time - and thats one of the less mad Cardiacs songs!
Tim and Francis in the same list? You have my subscription, right there. Both utter geniuses. ♥ Re: American prog though...have a listen to Bubblemath. You'll thank me if you do, because they (for me) are the finest and most original US prog act ever 😁👍
Having seen it bites multiple times in small West Midlands venues in the mid to late 80’s and supported Wilson in the mid nineties this vid has properly pulled me off my ren immersion and reminded me of how good your judgement is. 👍
Ps Ignore the intersectional guys commenting on your English aesthetic vids. I like your concept( regardless of the specifics), if nothing else, and it’s definitely worth considering and reflecting on, without culture war warriors trying to bully you into submission
Slam dunk on no. 1 & 2 Andy I completely understand how Zappa can elude a list….. Sometimes he is above and beyond. Wonderful bio on Fripp, and the inclusion of Todd Rundgren I find is absolutely deserved.
Agree about Franck Dunnery and Tim Smith, sooo underrated visionaries... imo Kevin Gilbert & Casey Crescenzo could be in a US prog unknown geniuses ranking ;)
Andy, good evening and thank you for this wonderful, thought provoking presentation!! You've listed some real favourites of mine and offered some new choices for my listening adventures! (And all with a smile!!) Keep up the fine work. Cheers from Owen Sound Canada Brian
Great episode. Even though I can no way make a "10 greatest" or "top 10" list of almost anything in music, and therefore wouldn't want to critique or rearrange ANYTHING here -- for me, I would have to include Mike Keneally.
Speaking of cold, camping in PNW as the temp freezes. Lockdown crushed income, still trying to recover. Ugh me mateys, it's cold here now. As for the list, you got Robert Fripp. He's a key favorite of mine as guitar has become my main finger based instrument behind vocals as main focus in recent years. Guitars in cases to survive the upcoming dip in the temperature to far below water's freezing point.
Maybe Peter Gabriel should be there? Not for his genesis stuff, but after. His sampling stuff, his popularity after, that video? Listening to him now you can see his influence on so many things. That’s me view. I agree with your 1 and 2 though.
There's a lot more to TR than AWATS and TR's Utopia. Initiation ( 1975 ), he personally tagged as his best to date at the time. Noone bought it of course... Too much pushing of bounderies, both structurally and sonically. Some of his best complex pop songs though ( Real Man, Initiation ) + the second half which happens to be electronic prog. First 17 minutes of it are genius. Not a fan of the end of it, the rythmic patterns. But anyone interested in challenging music must take a listen to it. As far as I'm concerned, it's as much a unique album as AWATS. More of the same with his 81 ( ? ) album, Healing.
One of the most proggy and most underrated... and certainly a pioneer... poor old Joe meek, of telstar Fame...the 1st incarnation of Brian Eno....eno even swiped some of his sounds... I'm kind of shocked too...eno has never spoken of him or givin him any credit that I'm aware of.
I too came upon the Cardiacs rather late. Just insane, and brilliant. Not just Tim Smith. The band surrounding him is up to the job. I am a little surprised to not see Black Midi mentioned. There is a whole lot of Cardiacs in their contemporary performance.
Although I take exception to his ranking in your list (if you knew the range of the music, I think you'd place him right after Zappa), I think your description of Christian Vander and Magma was spot on. I'd recommend anyone not familiar with the band to start with Kohntarkosz, although Theusz Hamtaahk and Wurdah Itah (live versions) are also great, and more typical of the hypnotic chant style that you described. The album you mentioned, with Didier Lockwood on violin, was Live '75, and the version of Kohntarkosz there (called Kontark) is fuller than the studio version.
Let's not forget The Vanilla Fudge who were a big influence on many of the English bands namely YES, ELP, King Crimson,Deep Purple, ect Evangelist Roger Mansour former Leslie West Vagrants Drummer
Frank Zappa and Robert Fripp are 1A and 1B in my book. Captain Beefheart is an underappreciated musical and artistic savant. He would be my 3rd choice.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I view him as being progressive (more blues and avant garde influenced), however he doesn't fit neatly into the prog rock of the English. EDIT: I would posit this proposition: If someone as eclectic as Tm Smith can make this list, then Beefheart is a candidate.
@@ericarmstrong6540I think most Progressive fans are very restrictive in their view of what constitutes Prog. Captain Beefheart was a big influence on Jethro Tull. The subdivisions are pretty meaningless to me. You don't need long solos or classical quotes to be Progressive. You need to do something new, that breaks barriers. Beefheart was revolutionary in what he put together. The vision of what is progressive is very limited.
Nazz was never just a garage band. They were extremely polished and their drummer, Thom Mooney was virtuosic. (He later went into studio work.) Mike Oldfield was influenced by groups like Soft Machine (and Terry Riley, to my mind the most important minimalist), who were also visionary.
I'm particularly gratified for your mention of Tod Rundgren, I'm a huge TR fan & the particular charm for me is that TR has eschewed any particular format & has in fact, made a point of exploring multiple formats. Yes he did some great prog stuff & you really need to explore him further for your own edification. I personally believe that the three album arc: Something/Anything, AWATS & Todd is one of the most remarkable musical arcs of any musical artist. (Having listened to AWATS, you really should listen to side one (of 4) of Todd & contemplate the particular juxtaposition of songs. While AWATS & Todd are indulgent at times they make a remarkable statement of independence as a follow on to Something/Anything which most people regarded as a masterpiece - which it is - but TR declared that he was not going to get niched out like so many other artists. In the progressive vein - you should really listen to Initiation & RA although "Another Live" is also worthwhile. As a producer, you must, must, must listen to "A Capella" & make note of the fact that he created this album using 1985 tech! Genres: Pop(?): Hermit of Mink Hollow New Age: Healing Broadway musical (style?): Nearly Human, 2nd Wind Bossa Nova: With A Twist Blues: Todd Rundgren's Johnson Grunge(?): Arena With Utopia: Hard rock: "Oops, Wrong Planet" & "Swing to The Right" Metal: Oblivion Beatles paean (or satire, take your pick): "Deface The Music" Disco (satire): Disco Jets Arguably, a big reason for TR's lack of popularity is the fact that he almost never repeats himself & (as you know) the general public likes predictability. With a TR album, you never know what you are going to get. Invariably, even the albums which I didn't particularly like at first listen have a knack for growing on you over time. In most of his solo work, TR also plays most of the instruments. As a side note, did you know that in TR's financing & production of Meatloaf's "Bat Out of Hell" album, Todd thought of it as a satire of Bruce Springsteen - even to the point of having several E St. Bandmembers (Max Weinberg and Roy Bittan) playing on it? As a producer yourself, you owe it to yourself to learn more about Todd
Hi there, my fellow TR fan ! I read what you've written and there's something I really don't get. Oblivion ( an alltime favorite of mine, btw ), a "metal" album ? "metal" ? WTF ? For me it's a fabulous power pop album with 3 killer slower tracks thrown in for good measure. Actually my alltime favorite in that particular genre. I love it as much as I love TR's Utopia. Love the sound of it, the production. Wouldn't say either that Ooops and Swing are "hard rock"... I had to go and see the songs on both. Apart from Trapped, it's ecclectic pop rock to my ears... Oh, and most of Arena I would tagg as "hard rock"... Or at least hard rocking.
@@h.m.7218 OK, labels are tricky things. As a fellow TR fan, I'm sure that you appreciate that Todd never seemed like a big fan of them so I hope that you will pardon my attempt to categorize an artist who defies categories. I also love Oblivion & Swing
That's a great list. It's even almost "The List", if one remembers that it's people who've opened things up, expanded the world, transgressed against whatever new conformities arrive, that you're talking about. It was good to see Tim Smith there. I can understand those who disagree with this, because I was very slow on the uptake with Cardiacs. Tim's music is truly unique, so you can't make use of all the familiar "anchor points" (even though it's also so down-to-Earth and familiar, too). To see what dragons there be down there takes a bit of time for some of us. In a way, it's easier to appreciate someone like Frank Zappa, for all his avante-ness (or avanted-ness? I always forget), because it's more obvious and presented as such - where Tim tried to make his music as approachable as possible - even when it was The Duck and Roger the Horse. Cardiacs tomfoolery is to make people comfortable with all the "pop" that comes popping out of them. De-intimidation, someone called it in his seminal paper on something, now forgotten. Either that or I'm a compulsive liar.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I think over here you might have some silent dissent, or " disagreement by omission", so that might be partly down to people just being nice (and maybe a bit too delicate/ conflict avoiding - but then who wants avoidable conflict?). And then "out there" is the occasional person Cardiacs rubs up exactly the wrong way. And I don't blame them. They're wrong, but I can't blame them. Tarred and Feathered was made to ruffle feathers, to some extent, I think, for instance. That said, well done human race for liking it best of them all. :D
Check out Pat Leonards band Trillion. Prior to writing all of Madonna's songs, Pat had a prog tock band in his home of Chicago. They released 2 albums the debut Trillion and the follow up Clear Approach. I prefer the later but you can add them to the U.S. list of prog rock bands.
Nazz was never just a garage band. They were extremely polished and their drummer, Thom Mooney was virtuosic. (He later went into studio work.) Mike Oldfield was influenced by groups like Soft Machine (and Terry Riley, to my mind the most important minimalist), who were also visionary.
Brilliant episode The Australian Daevid Allen who formed Soft Machine" in the UK + "Gong" in France could've been on the list? Here from abroad, we considered ROBERT WYATT as a quintessentially softer British prog visionary. I agree Zappa will forever be no1
Some great choices. I'm glad Vander made the list! I think J. A. Caesar should be considered on a list like this! Kokkyou Junreika and Shintokumaru are masterpieces!! J. A. Caesar combined prog, zeuhl, psych, opera, japanese traditional music with theater plays! No one has ever done that before or since!
Tim Smith brought the love and euphoria, no doubt about it. None of these other guys brought the big love. You listen to cardiacs music and you just grin with joy.
Bob Moog - what would Prog be without his invention Peter Gabriel - putting the Victorian/English theatre style in Prog Jon Anderson - the New Age/Guru thing. Did he got that from Mahavishnu? Because he said after seeing them they needed to rehearse a lot more haha. He said the same after seeing Crimson in '69. Ian Anderson - putting a more down to earth economic songwriting style in Prog. I think that's why a lot non-Prog fans like Tull. From our time maybe Mikael Akerfeldt. Apart from Steven Wilson.
Fripp and Toyah, I think, have music generally worked out in the context of life in terms of fun, seriousness, self-expression and making a living. Good on them. Rundgren is truly brilliant creatively and technically and Frank was clearly a real thinker. If you want to see Frank laugh (rare) see his interview with Australian comedic character Norman Gunston, the model for Borat. Gunston's interviews with many celebrities such as Paul and Linda McCartney Keith Moon etc are hilarious.
The Gilmour-Waters row and the ensuing cynicism could be wonderful material for a concept album… especially by a newly reunited Pink Floyd. Haha!!!! Not a chance in hell!
@@johnpace5774 thanks John I will... actually after I thought about it I realized there were a few... old Greg Lake ballads, some Syd Barrett songs I think players that are more concerned with technique and virtuosity tend to lose some Humanity along the way... and once something becomes formulaic, which seems to happen to all bands eventually
Yeah the Peter hammill/ Van Der graaf sure did the trick... Hammill could definitely emote when he was on...a little too much veneer on the Wilson stuff though, but it reminded me of some old Genesis that did the trick back in the day...didn't really want to cry today, but oh well🥸thanks!
If it's to be assumed that breaking new ground is the primary criteria for being cited as a visionary there are many artists who arguably have eclipsed Wilson, Rundgren and Oldfield. A few who are conspicuously absent: Don Van Vliet Fred Frith Allan Holdsworth (I know yer a big fan and realize that he was much more than a spectacular guitar player) Irmin Schmidt, (Can was a massively influential band and it may be somewhat unjust to single out one player from that group) Mike Johnson/Thinking Plague & Hamster Theater (USA) Dave Newhouse/The Muffins (USA) John Zorn (USA) Peter Hammill, (Vander Graaf was unique and they were hugely influential, especially in Italian prog)
You chose a difficult term: Vision is something diffuse. Is it a look into the near future (e.g. having short-term success with a musical prog rock concept), is it something long-term (with a goal at the end of the road (e.g. everyone will speak Zeuhl) or is it something where you just give advice : go to the doctor Your 10 examples are more or less suitable for the fulfillment of a vision (regardless of how many records have now been sold) I would definitely name Holdsworth as one of the great visionaries of prog rock music. Just where he has always been unsatisfied is an indication of his vision of how to play and that sometimes it fails) And Carlos Santana! Zawinul tells the story of how he first meets Santana to discuss the WR record.. That he, Z, finds that Santana can't read music, but that his explanations are somehow understood by Santana, and he finds himself in an apparently makes notes about it in his own musical language and somehow understands what one could ask of him. Zawinul, certainly not uneducated musically, describes the result that Santana delivers for in as "master of the melody". More vision is not possible. To deliver something that was created in your own world. Something similar with Capt. Beefheart, who, with trial and error, has his idea rehearsed by qualified musicians until he is satisfied with the result (realizing the vision). And because CAN is mentioned in another comment. How to deal with a band that doesn't insist on being called a rock band or prog rock band. And yes, without a doubt, they don't play rock music either. The German electronic music from Cologne and Berlin as well as the minimalist music has nothing to do with prog rock. It is and remains electronic music and a genre of its own. Some journalists may have drawn the Krautrock drawer a thousand times. And sure there are italian hidden champions. But how to speak about something we know nothing about.
Great list once again. Serious question - would prog as we know it have been possible without Eddie Offord, the ears behind ELP and Yes? Their quality and success made prog popular (and therefore bankable ...) Such was his greatness that Greg 'Love Machine' Lake himself invited Eddie to "f--- me all night long" on side 2 of "Tarkus". OK, maybe not visionary, but how many other blokes did Greg acknowledge in that way? Not many, I bet.
Love your segway into the virtues of older women. Thought for a moment you wre going to rightly laud the merits of a fellow Brummie in Tom Smith not Tim, and the wonderful Editors.
Reading Wilson's Limited Edition of One and he is far more open to admitting he is prog but his first success was with No Man, an art rock band. PT started as a joke until people picked up on Radioactive Toy. His Bass Communion and Blackfield projects are another side of him. The book is a good read and the best way to understand him, though The Album Years podcast with Tim Bowness (No Man) is hugely entertaining.
I like seeing Christian Vander and Tim Smith on the list. _That's the way we all go._ I would include the Shulman brothers of Gentle Giant. Vangelis went his own way and created a path of his own. The same thing is valid for Brian Eno. And the electronic "krauts" [like Tangerine Dream] have also invented a new sub-genre.
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Thank you for including Tim Smith.
A genius and a truly beautiful man.
Cardiacs are in a league of their own.
Thanks for including the genius Tim Smith, and also Mike Oldfield whose 70s albums are just beautiful.
As a massive Zappa and CARDIACS fan I appreciate and share your passion. Your words concerning both of them were eloquent and very moving. I was fortunate enough to see Zappa live on more than one occasion but was too late to the party to see CARDIACS, a sadly missed opportunity, Tim Smith was a unique talent and a true genius.
Hi Andy,
I'm with you on Cardiacs and Tim Smith. I didn't discover Cardiacs until last year, when I was 64 going on 65. I had a natural reaction: Why the hell have I not heard of these people?!?!? For them to mash together so many different influences in such an organic way is the definition of brilliance.
I also appreciated seeing Robert Fripp on your list (not that you would have ignored him). In the early 70s, he saw the creative stagnation that was coming in Prog and decided to stay ahead of it while others either drowned within their chosen formulas or simply couldn't adjust. He basically made that clear in an interview for Musician Magazine he did with Joe Strummer. And those two got on really well.
Love your list, very moving tribute to Tim Smith, so happy you put him on it!!!
Thank you very much!
So good to see Todd on this list.
Magma are a band best experienced live. Their series of DVDs shot in Paris in the mid 2000s called Mythes et Legends Vol 1 to (I think 5) which featured members of the band from their entire history are mind blowing. Vander is a freaking force. Edit: I saw them live at Slims in San Francisco and Jello Biafra of the Dead Kennedys introduced the band. Their show was a semi religious experience.
I agree although I would say "spiritual" experience rather than "religious". Not that I have anything against religion but "spiritual" is broader than "religious".
Will check that out
@@h.m.7218 Yes I agree, spiritual is a better descriptor.
Fripp and Zappa are two of my favourite artists too. Cheers! 🥸👍
Top 10 prog visionaries - tough to do just 10 - but I'll try. Listed Alphabetically.
Ian Anderson
Holger Czukay
Keith Emerson
Robert Fripp
Edgar Froese
Peter Gabriel
Peter Hammill
Andy Latimer
Vittorio Nocenzi
Klaus Schulze
There are MANY more - but I'll stick with this for now.
Daevid Allen!!!
Delighted to see Francis Dunnery getting his dues. Frank Zappa is, without doubt, the ultimate visionary. Great list, Andy (except for the omission of the aforementioned Mr. Allen).
Well done Andy, putting Zappa number one I completely agree with. I love all those Prog artists you highlight but about 25 years ago I really discovered Zappa on a deep level and bought a ton of his albums and learned so much about other great 20th century avant garde composers because of him. Completely expanded the way I look at music and art.
I started see this video now after see Francis i yous last gig. Two videos became to me acidentaly....belive or not....
Yet another brilliant video my good Sir. I was just thrilled to see Tim Smith and Cardiacs! I only stumbled upon them several years ago and just can’t get enough of them. I also loved their videos.
I am the same with the Cardiacs....
1- Frank Zappa
2- Christian Vander
3- Robert Fripp
4- Daniel Denis
5- Frank Wyatt
6- Dave Stewart
7- Jon Anderson
8- Todd Rundgren
9- Peter Hammill
10- Kerry Livgren
Before I watched this channel I never even heard of the Cardiacs and It Bites.
I’m surprised Ian Anderson didn’t make the cut. He’s a true original.
I would have included Spirit and Soft Machine as true rules breakers. I also love the Residents and Henry Cow. I realize that Andy's background and mine markedly differ.
Zappa was an excellent first choice. Fripp I struggle with at times, because after the original King Crimson (ending in 1974), I actually think he recycled ideas people had pioneered earlier (even in 1974, i think of Starless as a cut and paste of earlier King Crimson ideas-I know people love that piece, but I can remember hearing Red and being disappointed that I didn't hear anything new). Brilliant guy, but brilliant at repackaging to a certain extent. Even the Discipline group and the 1990s bands were kind of recycled Soft Machine with electric guitars. So, maybe Emerson as the guy with the original vision that KC smoothed out and made commercially palatable. I love Fripp, but sometimes think he gets too much credit for innovation.
Soft Machine really copied Zappa to my ears too.
I often feel alone in my love for the Cardiacs, so it was nice to hear your effusive comments about the late Tim Smith. And you're right, there really is a winsome quality to his compositions, however complex they may get.
Totally with you on Tim Smith!
Great video, as soon as I saw the title I thought of Fripp and Zappa, they have to be the two greatest musical geniuses ever.
Fripp never did the same thing twice, he wanted to push himself and other musicians around him. When Bruford joined Crimson Fripp told him to forget everything he'd done with Yes, Bruford had to develop a completely new style, and be continually changing it.
Hey Andy, great job on the visionary video, I really enjoyed it! May I offer an honourable mention: Radiohead. Thom York and Johnny Greenwood are incredible visionaries from the 90’s and into the new millennium. And as you have mentioned on many occasions that Radiohead is Prog. When you look at their history they start out with a mediocre AM song, but massive hit in 1993 “Creep”. Then we hear “Paranoid Android” (1997) from OK Computer which is an absolute prog classic. Then we are treated to “National Anthem” in 2000 from the amazing album “Kid A” where the instrumental section features an incredible Ornette Colman like wind solos, that crescendos to the end of the piece. In 2003 “Hail the Thief” pushes musical envelopes even further, experimenting with found sounds, odd meters and new unconventional forms. I believe that Thom York and Johnny Greenwood are worthy of honourable visionary mention.
Keep up the great work!
Jack G from Canada
Good callout on Todd Rundgren! A catalogue worthy of exploring. "Healing" is incredible. "A Capella" album has all the arrangements done with overdubs of just his voice! "Road to "Utopia" SHOULD have been as big as "Breakfast in America". Every song while still true to the Utopia esthetic, could have been a radio hit.
There is nothing more prog than Singring and the Glass Guitar.
Well done, Andy!!! Fantastic episode.
Nice shout out Scott
I saw It Bites at The Warehouse in Leeds in the late 80's. They were ace 🙂
I know you like Fripp (I personally think he’s overrated)
Agree with Zappa , however! Nice video , mate.
Godley and Creme, Mondo Video part one two and three, and the album Consequences.
Couldn’t agree more with that Tim Smith section, the man truly was king!
Love the list. I think Primus were one of the most progressive American rock bands ever...They didn’t sound like anyone before them...they basically created a new form of music. Super dissonant, odd time signatures, the bass is being strummed like a rhythm guitar, the Les Claypool doesn’t have much of a voice so he makes up for it by affecting all kinds of hick Americana stereotypes...like a carnival barker... or an auctioneer (without the speed) ....Uniquely American lyrics too (ballads of truck drivers, Hicks and methheads) They managed to have huge commercial success and cultural significance for a time too despite being having the least commercial sound imaginable...
I think they were so progressive that they transcended the term and sadly never get talked about by prog fans much..
Currently on tour playing farewell to kings with Rush’s blessings
Looking forward to this episode Andy! You know that I would include Peter Hammill of Van der Graaf Generator ... know he many not be on your list and that is fine. Deep respect for your expert opinions.
Alas no...I hope you still enjoy it though
Always a intelligent take on various music genres my current favorite channel always on point loved the Jeff beck tribute big fan of Zappa and Todd another great video 👍
You are so right to point out that Keith Emerson really understood the value of showmanship and performance art as much as the value of the music. When he starts stabbing his keyboard with knives.. fuck yeah!
I saw him with PJ Arnold, then at the Marquee club in 1967: the knife was used to hold the keys down and get a sustain, not to stab this poor L100 !
When he starts stabbing his keyboard, I think "what a fekkin prat." Good for a larf, I guess.
Andy, your description of FZ explains why it seems he is more appreciated now than in the 80s. Many of us didn't get him ... yet.
Resplendent list. Fantastic description and justification.
Another informative and thought provoking presentation. I absolutely agree with your analysis and perspectives on Frank Zappa, Robert Fripp and Roger Waters. Bravo!
Sheik Djerbouti -> shake your booty.
Oh my… I finally get it.
Thank you.
Muchas gracias Andy de darnos tus opiniones de estos grandes artistas y darme la oportunidad de conocer un mundo musical diferente ! Saludos
What a great list, a balance of some of my faves, Wilson, Tim Smith, Magma, Barrett and some I need to explore - Cheers.
I’m an instant new fan of It Bites. Thank you 🙏
Cardiacs! Wow, I just got Sing To God Vol. 1 and 2 and it is freaking crazy! I mean that in the best way.
Can't agree more about Tim - he had a huge talent for making crazy chord progressions completely work! I covered Stoneage Dinosaurs this year and its almost like playing jazz when you learn it on guitar for the first time - and thats one of the less mad Cardiacs songs!
That was fun and interesting. Thanks
Tim and Francis in the same list? You have my subscription, right there. Both utter geniuses. ♥
Re: American prog though...have a listen to Bubblemath. You'll thank me if you do, because they (for me) are the finest and most original US prog act ever 😁👍
Just checked out Bubblemath. Man, they are brilliant. Thanks for the heads up.
Having seen it bites multiple times in small West Midlands venues in the mid to late 80’s and supported Wilson in the mid nineties this vid has properly pulled me off my ren immersion and reminded me of how good your judgement is. 👍
Ps
Ignore the intersectional guys commenting on your English aesthetic vids.
I like your concept( regardless of the specifics), if nothing else, and it’s definitely worth considering and reflecting on, without culture war warriors trying to bully you into submission
Slam dunk on no. 1 & 2 Andy
I completely understand how Zappa can elude a list….. Sometimes he is above and beyond.
Wonderful bio on Fripp, and the inclusion of Todd Rundgren I find is absolutely deserved.
Thanks for including Tim Smith, Francis, Frank and Todd. I only miss Peter Gabriel.
I'm totally with you on Frank Zappa.
I love that you love Tim so much.
Agree about Franck Dunnery and Tim Smith, sooo underrated visionaries...
imo Kevin Gilbert & Casey Crescenzo could be in a US prog unknown geniuses ranking ;)
Yes..unknown geniuses would be a great video....
Well done! I would upvote Jon Anderson, Peter Gabriel, John McLaughlin and Lisa Gerrard but your one and two are practically incontestable.
Lisa Gerrard,that`s more like it.She`d definately be on my list,along with McLaughlin.
Fun show, Andy. "This next song's To go off and things."
Andy, good evening and thank you for this wonderful, thought provoking presentation!! You've listed some real favourites of mine and offered some new choices for my listening adventures! (And all with a smile!!) Keep up the fine work. Cheers from Owen Sound Canada
Brian
Great episode. Even though I can no way make a "10 greatest" or "top 10" list of almost anything in music, and therefore wouldn't want to critique or rearrange ANYTHING here -- for me, I would have to include Mike Keneally.
In no particular order - Frank Zappa, Don Van Vliet, Peter Hammill, Robert Wyatt, Robert Fripp, Brian Eno.
Speaking of cold, camping in PNW as the temp freezes. Lockdown crushed income, still trying to recover. Ugh me mateys, it's cold here now. As for the list, you got Robert Fripp. He's a key favorite of mine as guitar has become my main finger based instrument behind vocals as main focus in recent years. Guitars in cases to survive the upcoming dip in the temperature to far below water's freezing point.
Maybe Peter Gabriel should be there? Not for his genesis stuff, but after. His sampling stuff, his popularity after, that video? Listening to him now you can see his influence on so many things. That’s me view. I agree with your 1 and 2 though.
Nice of you to come back to Magma and Christian Vander...🙏
There's a lot more to TR than AWATS and TR's Utopia. Initiation ( 1975 ), he personally tagged as his best to date at the time. Noone bought it of course... Too much pushing of bounderies, both structurally and sonically. Some of his best complex pop songs though ( Real Man, Initiation ) + the second half which happens to be electronic prog. First 17 minutes of it are genius. Not a fan of the end of it, the rythmic patterns. But anyone interested in challenging music must take a listen to it. As far as I'm concerned, it's as much a unique album as AWATS. More of the same with his 81 ( ? ) album, Healing.
One of the most proggy and most underrated... and certainly a pioneer... poor old Joe meek, of telstar Fame...the 1st incarnation of Brian Eno....eno even swiped some of his sounds... I'm kind of shocked too...eno has never spoken of him or givin him any credit that I'm aware of.
I too came upon the Cardiacs rather late. Just insane, and brilliant. Not just Tim Smith. The band surrounding him is up to the job. I am a little surprised to not see Black Midi mentioned. There is a whole lot of Cardiacs in their contemporary performance.
Yes...discussed them on my history of prog videos....
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer Very cool. I must've missed that clip. Am going to watch it.
Although I take exception to his ranking in your list (if you knew the range of the music, I think you'd place him right after Zappa), I think your description of Christian Vander and Magma was spot on. I'd recommend anyone not familiar with the band to start with Kohntarkosz, although Theusz Hamtaahk and Wurdah Itah (live versions) are also great, and more typical of the hypnotic chant style that you described. The album you mentioned, with Didier Lockwood on violin, was Live '75, and the version of Kohntarkosz there (called Kontark) is fuller than the studio version.
Recently I discovered Attahk which is mindblowing. More fusiony I suppose....
Let's not forget The Vanilla Fudge who were a big influence on many of the English bands namely YES, ELP, King Crimson,Deep Purple, ect
Evangelist Roger Mansour former Leslie West Vagrants Drummer
Frank Zappa and Robert Fripp are 1A and 1B in my book. Captain Beefheart is an underappreciated musical and artistic savant. He would be my 3rd choice.
I agree about Beefheart's visionary-ness. Just noy sure how prog he is
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I view him as being progressive (more blues and avant garde influenced), however he doesn't fit neatly into the prog rock of the English. EDIT: I would posit this proposition: If someone as eclectic as Tm Smith can make this list, then Beefheart is a candidate.
@@ericarmstrong6540I think most Progressive fans are very restrictive in their view of what constitutes Prog. Captain Beefheart was a big influence on Jethro Tull. The subdivisions are pretty meaningless to me. You don't need long solos or classical quotes to be Progressive. You need to do something new, that breaks barriers.
Beefheart was revolutionary in what he put together.
The vision of what is progressive is very limited.
Nazz was never just a garage band. They were extremely polished and their drummer, Thom Mooney was virtuosic.
(He later went into studio work.) Mike Oldfield was influenced by groups like Soft Machine (and Terry Riley, to my mind the most important minimalist), who were also visionary.
Heartwarming to see Tim Smith in this list.
Robert Fripp and Toyah's version of Too Drunk Too F*ck by the Dead Kennedys is hilarious.
I'm particularly gratified for your mention of Tod Rundgren, I'm a huge TR fan & the particular charm for me is that TR has eschewed any particular format & has in fact, made a point of exploring multiple formats. Yes he did some great prog stuff & you really need to explore him further for your own edification. I personally believe that the three album arc: Something/Anything, AWATS & Todd is one of the most remarkable musical arcs of any musical artist. (Having listened to AWATS, you really should listen to side one (of 4) of Todd & contemplate the particular juxtaposition of songs. While AWATS & Todd are indulgent at times they make a remarkable statement of independence as a follow on to Something/Anything which most people regarded as a masterpiece - which it is - but TR declared that he was not going to get niched out like so many other artists.
In the progressive vein - you should really listen to Initiation & RA although "Another Live" is also worthwhile.
As a producer, you must, must, must listen to "A Capella" & make note of the fact that he created this album using 1985 tech!
Genres:
Pop(?): Hermit of Mink Hollow
New Age: Healing
Broadway musical (style?): Nearly Human, 2nd Wind
Bossa Nova: With A Twist
Blues: Todd Rundgren's Johnson
Grunge(?): Arena
With Utopia:
Hard rock: "Oops, Wrong Planet" & "Swing to The Right"
Metal: Oblivion
Beatles paean (or satire, take your pick): "Deface The Music"
Disco (satire): Disco Jets
Arguably, a big reason for TR's lack of popularity is the fact that he almost never repeats himself & (as you know) the general public likes predictability. With a TR album, you never know what you are going to get. Invariably, even the albums which I didn't particularly like at first listen have a knack for growing on you over time. In most of his solo work, TR also plays most of the instruments.
As a side note, did you know that in TR's financing & production of Meatloaf's "Bat Out of Hell" album, Todd thought of it as a satire of Bruce Springsteen - even to the point of having several E St. Bandmembers (Max Weinberg and Roy Bittan) playing on it?
As a producer yourself, you owe it to yourself to learn more about Todd
Hi there, my fellow TR fan ! I read what you've written and there's something I really don't get. Oblivion ( an alltime favorite of mine, btw ), a "metal" album ? "metal" ? WTF ? For me it's a fabulous power pop album with 3 killer slower tracks thrown in for good measure. Actually my alltime favorite in that particular genre. I love it as much as I love TR's Utopia. Love the sound of it, the production.
Wouldn't say either that Ooops and Swing are "hard rock"... I had to go and see the songs on both. Apart from Trapped, it's ecclectic pop rock to my ears...
Oh, and most of Arena I would tagg as "hard rock"... Or at least hard rocking.
@@h.m.7218 OK, labels are tricky things. As a fellow TR fan, I'm sure that you appreciate that Todd never seemed like a big fan of them so I hope that you will pardon my attempt to categorize an artist who defies categories. I also love Oblivion & Swing
@@dlsamson No problem. I'm just happy some of us appreciate his music as much as it deserves to be.
That's a great list. It's even almost "The List", if one remembers that it's people who've opened things up, expanded the world, transgressed against whatever new conformities arrive, that you're talking about. It was good to see Tim Smith there. I can understand those who disagree with this, because I was very slow on the uptake with Cardiacs. Tim's music is truly unique, so you can't make use of all the familiar "anchor points" (even though it's also so down-to-Earth and familiar, too). To see what dragons there be down there takes a bit of time for some of us. In a way, it's easier to appreciate someone like Frank Zappa, for all his avante-ness (or avanted-ness? I always forget), because it's more obvious and presented as such - where Tim tried to make his music as approachable as possible - even when it was The Duck and Roger the Horse. Cardiacs tomfoolery is to make people comfortable with all the "pop" that comes popping out of them. De-intimidation, someone called it in his seminal paper on something, now forgotten. Either that or I'm a compulsive liar.
Surprisingly no one is questioning that choice.
@@AndyEdwardsDrummer I think over here you might have some silent dissent, or " disagreement by omission", so that might be partly down to people just being nice (and maybe a bit too delicate/ conflict avoiding - but then who wants avoidable conflict?).
And then "out there" is the occasional person Cardiacs rubs up exactly the wrong way. And I don't blame them. They're wrong, but I can't blame them. Tarred and Feathered was made to ruffle feathers, to some extent, I think, for instance. That said, well done human race for liking it best of them all. :D
Hey I Get so excited I post too early. GREAT VID!
Hey, thanks!
Check out Pat Leonards band Trillion. Prior to writing all of Madonna's songs, Pat had a prog tock band in his home of Chicago. They released 2 albums the debut Trillion and the follow up Clear Approach. I prefer the later but you can add them to the U.S. list of prog rock bands.
Can’t argue with anyone on the list. Brian Eno would’ve probably made it onto mine. ✌🏼
Agree that FZ is above this list and beyond any genera based categorization. Thanks for an interesting show.
Nazz was never just a garage band. They were extremely polished and their drummer, Thom Mooney was virtuosic.
(He later went into studio work.) Mike Oldfield was influenced by groups like Soft Machine (and Terry Riley, to my mind the most important minimalist), who were also visionary.
Brilliant episode
The Australian Daevid Allen who formed Soft Machine" in the UK + "Gong" in France could've been on the list?
Here from abroad, we considered ROBERT WYATT as a quintessentially softer British prog visionary.
I agree Zappa will forever be no1
Yes both of those are contenders
I'd love to hear you go deeper into your idea that ethics come from aesthetics (if I'm paraphrasing you accurately).
Some great choices. I'm glad Vander made the list! I think J. A. Caesar should be considered on a list like this! Kokkyou Junreika and Shintokumaru are masterpieces!! J. A. Caesar combined prog, zeuhl, psych, opera, japanese traditional music with theater plays! No one has ever done that before or since!
Looking at your most popular videos, they clearly are the 10 greatest Prog or fusion. I suggest you start doing top 20.
You are probably right Rick...
Tim Smith brought the love and euphoria, no doubt about it. None of these other guys brought the big love. You listen to cardiacs music and you just grin with joy.
Bob Moog - what would Prog be without his invention
Peter Gabriel - putting the Victorian/English theatre style in Prog
Jon Anderson - the New Age/Guru thing. Did he got that from Mahavishnu? Because he said after seeing them they needed to rehearse a lot more haha. He said the same after seeing Crimson in '69.
Ian Anderson - putting a more down to earth economic songwriting style in Prog. I think that's why a lot non-Prog fans like Tull.
From our time maybe Mikael Akerfeldt. Apart from Steven Wilson.
Fist side of OMMADAWN is a masterpiece. World Music, Before World Music.
and the guitar orgasm is really an orgasm.
Jon Anderson
Bill Laswell !
So where oh where is the brilliant and wonderfully eccentric Daevid Allen??? He created a whole new world!!!!!
He is one I regretted not putting on...I agree
I agree, Daevid Allen should probably be in the top 10!
34:15 - I actually shouted, no cheered out "YES".
Fripp and Toyah, I think, have music generally worked out in the context of life in terms of fun, seriousness, self-expression and making a living. Good on them. Rundgren is truly brilliant creatively and technically and Frank was clearly a real thinker. If you want to see Frank laugh (rare) see his interview with Australian comedic character Norman Gunston, the model for Borat. Gunston's interviews with many celebrities such as Paul and Linda McCartney Keith Moon etc are hilarious.
Norman Gunston also plays a mean blues harmonica on Frank's FZ:OZ
@@johndrayton8728 Sure does!
Your musical preference progression sounds very similar to my own. I think a lot of gen Xers could say the same. FWIW Cheers! S.
“Steven Wilson” is Now the Most Visionary Alternative, Prog Rock Artist Performing Today!
Lol, that's funny
I find he’s like the Tim Burton of prog now. A bit too effectist.
In my opinion
David Surkamp of Pavlov’sDog surely belongs in this list and category.
Came here for Tim Smith, wasn't disappointed, thank you - think I'll put Sing To God on now!
The Gilmour-Waters row and the ensuing cynicism could be wonderful material for a concept album… especially by a newly reunited Pink Floyd. Haha!!!! Not a chance in hell!
Andrew is probably the only guy out there doing justice to Cardiacs and Tim Smith today.
I think Frank Bornemann should be considered for a list like this. He is the grandfather of symphonic space rock!
Bowie-" ain't there one God damn song that can make me break down and cry"....me- "yes, but it won't be a prog song."
Try House With No Door, by Van Der Graf, or Drive, by Steven Wilson, maybe?
@@johnpace5774 thanks John I will... actually after I thought about it I realized there were a few... old Greg Lake ballads, some Syd Barrett songs I think players that are more concerned with technique and virtuosity tend to lose some Humanity along the way... and once something becomes formulaic, which seems to happen to all bands eventually
Yeah the Peter hammill/ Van Der graaf sure did the trick... Hammill could definitely emote when he was on...a little too much veneer on the Wilson stuff though, but it reminded me of some old Genesis that did the trick back in the day...didn't really want to cry today, but oh well🥸thanks!
@@psychicdriver4229 sorry, brother! Breaks me up every time I hear it.
If it's to be assumed that breaking new ground is the primary criteria for being cited as a visionary there are many artists who arguably have eclipsed Wilson, Rundgren and Oldfield. A few who are conspicuously absent:
Don Van Vliet
Fred Frith
Allan Holdsworth (I know yer a big fan and realize that he was much more than a spectacular guitar player)
Irmin Schmidt, (Can was a massively influential band and it may be somewhat unjust to single out one player from that group)
Mike Johnson/Thinking Plague & Hamster Theater (USA)
Dave Newhouse/The Muffins (USA)
John Zorn (USA)
Peter Hammill, (Vander Graaf was unique and they were hugely influential, especially in Italian prog)
You chose a difficult term: Vision is something diffuse. Is it a look into the near future (e.g. having short-term success with a musical prog rock concept), is it something long-term (with a goal at the end of the road (e.g. everyone will speak Zeuhl) or is it something where you just give advice : go to the doctor Your 10 examples are more or less suitable for the fulfillment of a vision (regardless of how many records have now been sold) I would definitely name Holdsworth as one of the great visionaries of prog rock music. Just where he has always been unsatisfied is an indication of his vision of how to play and that sometimes it fails) And Carlos Santana! Zawinul tells the story of how he first meets Santana to discuss the WR record.. That he, Z, finds that Santana can't read music, but that his explanations are somehow understood by Santana, and he finds himself in an apparently makes notes about it in his own musical language and somehow understands what one could ask of him. Zawinul, certainly not uneducated musically, describes the result that Santana delivers for in as "master of the melody". More vision is not possible. To deliver something that was created in your own world.
Something similar with Capt. Beefheart, who, with trial and error, has his idea rehearsed by qualified musicians until he is satisfied with the result (realizing the vision).
And because CAN is mentioned in another comment. How to deal with a band that doesn't insist on being called a rock band or prog rock band. And yes, without a doubt, they don't play rock music either. The German electronic music from Cologne and Berlin as well as the minimalist music has nothing to do with prog rock. It is and remains electronic music and a genre of its own. Some journalists may have drawn the Krautrock drawer a thousand times.
And sure there are italian hidden champions. But how to speak about something we know nothing about.
Great list once again.
Serious question - would prog as we know it have been possible without Eddie Offord, the ears behind ELP and Yes? Their quality and success made prog popular (and therefore bankable ...)
Such was his greatness that Greg 'Love Machine' Lake himself invited Eddie to "f--- me all night long" on side 2 of "Tarkus". OK, maybe not visionary, but how many other blokes did Greg acknowledge in that way? Not many, I bet.
Bravo Andy! Worthy of Laudation sir! #TimSmith #Cardiacs 🌼
Love your segway into the virtues of older women. Thought for a moment you wre going to rightly laud the merits of a fellow Brummie in Tom Smith not Tim, and the wonderful Editors.
MAGMA⚛⚛ Which live album covers LOVE SUPREME>?
Reading Wilson's Limited Edition of One and he is far more open to admitting he is prog but his first success was with No Man, an art rock band. PT started as a joke until people picked up on Radioactive Toy. His Bass Communion and Blackfield projects are another side of him. The book is a good read and the best way to understand him, though The Album Years podcast with Tim Bowness (No Man) is hugely entertaining.
I am playing with Tim Bowness this summer. I first heard of SW in the No Man project back in the 90s.
Well, that's got to be a ticket worth buying! Will look out for dates nearby. I know Tim has connections with Trading Boundaries...
I've always thought that Frank Zappa was in someways the modern day version of Spike Jonze
What about Kerry Minnear/Gentle Giant?
I like seeing Christian Vander and Tim Smith on the list. _That's the way we all go._
I would include the Shulman brothers of Gentle Giant.
Vangelis went his own way and created a path of his own.
The same thing is valid for Brian Eno.
And the electronic "krauts" [like Tangerine Dream] have also invented a new sub-genre.
Difficult with Gentle Giant as yes the Shulman brothers were the core of the band; but Kerry Minnear had huge musical input into GG.
@@jimmycampbell78 I have no problem including Kerry Minnear and the kitchen sink of GG, as they are my fav band 😀
Christian Vander ✌😎👍
@@zeuhl5840 Hamtaï !
@@zootallures6470 Que le grand Kreühn Köhrmahn veille sur toi... 😉