I suspect starting out with e85 really limits any benefit from the bolt on approach. Especially if it is already tuned a bit rich. If you were using 98 RON (93 AKI) maybe there would be more of a difference due to cooling effects of vaporizing the water/meth. I think you kind of hinted at this in the middle of the video. It would be interesting to see this on a less optimized setup. I am thinking a street car where to owner has changed nothing hardware wise and the only other mod is a tune using an off the shelf map. Now the stock turbo is running farther from it's peak efficiency, and the stock intercooler is getting heat soaked quickly. This probably better approximates the situation most people watching this find themselves in. For this to work in a bolt on way the charge air temperature would need to be pretty high. 44.3 °C coming out of the intercooler isn't that high.
I've had a PWM controlled water methanol injection setup on a modified turbo diesel hatch, with it added without being tuned for it, the car picked up 7KW at the front wheels on the dyno just having the 49/51 mix of water/methanol spraying into the intake. The nozzle was too small though and it wasn't enough spray for the engine. Works really well on diesel.
I once ran a car that wasn't tuned for meth or e85 with WMI and about 30% e85 in the tank. It actually ran amazingly well with a noticeable gain in power and reduction in 0-60. The fuel trims were actually good (-7% short, -2% long) timing advance stayed higher overall. I was running about 50% meth. Boost temps dropped to nearly ambient. I was using a snow stage 2 progressive kit, didn't have it full duty cycle. I set spray to start at 2psi max at 50psi. Most boost the car saw was 15psi. So as you can tell it never went full duty cycle. Just putting my experience out there.
I dont know to much about e85, but I do know that on a pump gas vehicle you wouldnt see such drastic power drops from adding water meth with out the tuning, in fact you barely notice the power drop at all and its a great mod to ensure that you dont get knock when pushing the car to the limit. I have been running meth injection kits for 20 years and its amazing how much boost you can run on pump gas.
Ive used methanol in this way before many times. To make any decent power you really need to substitute a large portion of your base fuel with some decent flowing jets. Most guys just go to a dedicated secondary fuel system with injectors these days. A basic small aftermarket W/M kit is only going to give average gains. Tuning is 100% needed.
i dont know why i even watched the video after you said you wouldnt adjust the tune to suit in injection. next video you should adjust the tune to suit
I built my own water/meth system for my paxton windsor. I run 50:50 water/meth. I think common sense (which is not too common) tells you that you are not going to get any gains from bolting this on alone, because the true benefits come from the fact you can push the tune harder. It's kinda like switching to E85 and not tuning. Adding the methanol means you're going to be running richer right off the bat as well, so doing it without tuning is a bit silly unless you were lean to start with. The reason that the water is used is because the cylinder quenching properties of the water is way higher than methanol alone. The energy obsorbed by water changing state from liquid to gas is way higher, so it can absorb a lot more heat in the cylinder than methanol can. But methanol evaporates very easily, so gives good cooling of the intake charge before it reaches the cylinder. It also increases the octane over pump fuel. My intake temps on a run before meth would go above 70 (only 10 psi boost), and after adding water/meth the intake temp drops to just over 30 degrees and stays there.
This is exactly the kind of comparison I have been looking for. All of the other water / meth installs I've seen involve a new tune before the next dyno.
Well, the answer was as expected. Make with part 2 already where you actually tune it. I've got some circuit race track results of water/meth injection on my channel for a completely different setup. 4cyl, 11.5:1 compression, 10psi inefficient roots blower and tiny factory intercooler...on pump 98. Water meth works very well in keeping power consistent lap after lap. I added 4 deg timing (28 deg total) and trim fuel out around 12% when injecting 50/50 meth water. This on a 300HP (CRANK) motor with 300cc min wm injection rate (measure, not claimed nozzle rate).
I think it depends on what ECU you’re running. I’ve dynoed my Mazda Cx7 (same engine as Mazda 3/6 MPS) and saw a 5 -6hp gain all across the rev range when it was on factory setting (unflashed) running a small 63cc jet. Seems like the ecu detects the cooler air and runs more timing (u can evidently see 1-2 degrees more). Running 50/50 mix.
The intercooler is already enough and there is fuel enough to cool, so knocking or hot intake air is not a problem on this build. The kit should help if running on a stock setup with boost turned up, the now undersized intercooler with a undersized turbo leaving its most efficient work area and fuel injectors that can not spray more to cool everything down again.
You won’t lose power if you have a car that runs a variable timing system, such as the 2015+ Mustangs. The OAR if the tune is set correctly can add up to 6 additional degrees of timing if it sees that fueling is good.
Yes please do another video where you tune it for the same ratios. Ie 100% water etc.. I just hooked up my 100% water system today. Still need to test. Pre-compressor BTW.
The best expression of a water methanol/water injection setup is going to be on a large diesel engine, especially a turbo setup. Diesels are monitoring NOx and add more fuel to use it as coolant to keep things cool to reduce NOx, so it also improves MPG as well as power.
Great back to back there guys! 12° IAT drop is awesome! Will be interesting to see how the red rocket flies down the 1320 with some more pressure on the dome!
Love the vids mate been watching for years. Just about to go down the water/meth kit for my rx4 coupe here in Melbourne. Which kit do you prefer aem, snow etc. thanks for the help in asvance
Ethanol and methanol are very similar and you already get the benefits from water meth with E85. If you did this with gasoline your results would be different but you'd still want tuning to get the most out of it.
Looks like water/meth is not the effective when running E85 which is mostly alcohol already. I'd like to see this test with pump gas, the results would be a lot different.
Now is this comparable to a car on 98 running the different injection set-ups?, being that e85 already has cooling properties, would you say the power loss would be less seeing as alot of stock ecu's pull timing with temp and if you run water/meth it's going to keep it nice and cool and at its best all year around? I don't disagree that to make the most you need a tune though, love the video guys keep up the good work!! Plus the water meth is great for us with direct injection to clean our vales so its not all bad i guess :)
What interests me about this is, your tune stays constant. But if someone is running a turbo car with a factory ECU, they usually lose power because the factory ECU will pull timing. But if they want to turn up the boost and add water/meth injection wouldn't the factory ECU add timing back in? Also less chance of detonation I would think.
@@driftsteve My tuner sold his dyno. REALLY. HES SUPPOSEDLY GETTING A MUSTANG DYNO. I hope so. I'll end up going to stinger if worst case. But. I'm so busy. I still am working things out on the car. Soooo much todo with no personal space. I'm looking into renting a shop space or unit. Idk. I have the fittings to jump into the final touches. I'm going for a solid 500hp at 25 psi. Idk. Maybe juice it on the boosg up.
Commenting from 2022 i'm surprised nobody mentioned the cost benefits... a 3 dollar bottle of washer fluid will last a full tank of fuel, so you could theoretically run regular lower cost 87 octane and use water/meth to make up the difference, which is still cheaper than using higher octane fuel to start with..
They should revisit this and find MBT with WMI on/off. Or achieve MBT and then increase boost until reaching knock limit. That would show the true potential of WMI.
does it also make less power on a turbo diesel if you strap it straith on without adjustments? I heard the results on diesels are much better than petrol engines.
Hi guys! Was the experience of injection of water-methanol on a naturally aspirated engine without a turbo? It would be very interesting to hear or read about it. (:
What were the boost curve comparisons between them, could some of the power drop be attributed to boost curve, it might not be the case but it would be have been good to compare boost curves.
If I(a cheap bastard) ever were to install water injection it would be primarily as a safety net(detonation, pre-ignition, crazy EGT) and cheap "in cylinder" steam cleaning. Any torque or HP increases would be just a BONUS.👌🏻
So my mates stage 3 chip he got off eBay for his barra won't add 1100hp?? He'll be devastated. Owell lucky he has a loud a stereo to drown that awful noise his car makes every time he starts it.
I think my early 2000s ECU would love water injection because it depends heavily on knock sensors and air temp for it's timing map, runs absolutely insane in colder temps
Still no news about the brake replacement on the Vf Redline wagon, how are they going noises squealing and stopping power compared to the stock brembo pads etc. please do a update and also the measurements of the new rotors after now placing ultimate pads from bendix and the same for the rears rotors as well, just interesting to see how much metal is removed due to the ultimate bendix pads v's the OE Rotors that's all ?
Could you do these same tests but on a Diesel engine? I understand on a gas engine you have to have the correct air/fuel ratio but on a diesel you can (more or less) add fuel and it will add power. I’m just curious what it would do for a diesel on a factory tune.
What this shows is your custom tune is running as rich as possible which isn't normal unless you are running a dyno to meticulously tune it that way. This also shows you are probably missing potential where if fell off when you were running 100% methanol. Perhaps this is because the higher octane of the methanol having benefits at higher rpm? Perhaps you aren't advanced enough on your current fuel? Which would also prevent any gains. An engine with a knock sensor and self advancing timing would pay off or if you were more aggressive with your timing im general. If you think about it, the water is also offsetting the air in the chambers which is further enriching your fuel. So you have a few things that most people wouldn't be facing, 1. Fully saturated air to fuel ratio, 2. you are probably dumping a little extra fuel past saturation to mitigate heat that the cooling system cant handle, 3. Loosing boost from lower exhaust gas pressure. So you are half right. MOsT people would benefit only those who are tuned to the gills should have a negative effect.
The theory behind water injection was implemented on German fighter planes to run higher boost without destroying the engine with preignition knock. They only used it if they had to run crappy fuel on good fuel it was a waste of time. The theory behind today’s systems is to cool intake charges, spraying the outside of an inter cooler can give better benefit without messing with tunes etc.
It was the allies not the Germans that did it. The alcohol was ethanol and was only used to prevent freezing at altitude, it's the water that does the real work. It allows planes to fly higher and faster
@@1magnit . Actually No The allies examined it as a means of extending the range of bombers but determined ir was little benefit due to the extra weight. The Germans actually used it for the same reason as lead foots do but only on a few fighters and only because of crap fuel. They used it to give them upto twenty minutes of superboost before the water tanks ran dry, on good fuel they had no such time limit . There are government white papers in it from both the US and Germany and TH-cam vids on it.
My butt dyno tells a different story. Just installed a progressively controlled WMI system on my focus ST and haven't got it retuned yet, it feels like my car pulls significantly harder. I would say there's no way I lost power, MAYBE it stayed the same but it sure doesn't feel that way.
This video will mislead a lot of guys with little experience.. water meth can save your engine and gives big advantage to cars running small turbos high boost with small intercoolers pushing limits. In this case the system is already very efficient running e85.. 100kw less I laugh
What is next? Watch this before installing larger ID Injectors?* Watch this before upgrading an upgraded or adding a turbo?* Watch this before installing a stroker kit?* *Without re-tuning.
E85 is a race fuel. Most ppl and car enthusiasts are running petrol. So I think that by lowering the intake temps you will gain power. Because think of summer. The intercooler cant lower temps below ambient. Do a couple of hard runns and you get hest soak. ESPECIALLY with a smaller turbo turned up high. The air charge will go up to 50C and more. The ECU is simply going to detect knock and retard timing thus you loose power. So cooling air charge even without writing it into the map is effective in my opinion. Also any change in air fuel ratio is going to be detected by the o2 sensor and ECU compensate. Also if you write the w/m into the map you will have to be careful not to end up with an empty w/m reservoir.
The biggest benefit is for people that are octane limited with pump fuel , no e85 availability. No water meth can only run about 8-9 psi with water meth about 15-16 psi on my personal setup, 10:1 compression
In WA we are limited to e85 at a handful of servos but you can't rely on them even having it in stock. Have been curious about running meth injection on a 12.5:1 comp n/a Ls1.. But if the pump fails I'm not sure how you would have a fail safe to stop the engine from grenading itself
You lost me on "Fuel part of this equation won't change". One of the reasons for WMI is to alter AFR. It richens the mixture hence the ECU can advance timing to make it leaner. All you end up doing is flooding the system with too less air and too much fuel. If you are loosing power, you installed your WMI wrong, simple as that.
I haven't watched in full but you need to adjust tuning for your fuel type otherwise it does nothing. Like running Premium high octane fuel on a normal car. Only really a benefit of you tune for it.
E85 already has a cooling effect. you'll see your biggest gains when running pump gas. if you use 2 things that have a cooling effect then 1 gets cancelled out and you can lose power by cooling the combustion too much. run pump gas and retest you'll see different results.
i should add that your point about tuning is accurate though you won't see the full effects unless you tune but that can be said about any modification.
Who on earth would just bolt water-methanol and jus roll with it? 50/50 will give you the best results. You need to keep injecting until the engine almost chokes on it and then back off a little. This is what Rodney at Pro Meth has suggested to everybody and the result after TUNING is more power. Methanol does pull lots of heat, but water can pull more BTU than meth, you have to keep increasing the amount of water injected until temps no longer drop because of saturating the air. Then give the boost and ignition a crank and it will make more power again. There is more oxygen in Methanol so you'll get additional power increase from that, what is why 50/50 is best. If you want to run 100% Methanol, get VP M5 which is 5% Nitromethane.... That will put some kick into it, most cars 30-40 whp OVER 50/50 or E85.
Yeah you will get more from pure methanol generally because it’s a fuel and has energy. Water has no energy, all the water can do is remove heat from the combustion process to enable more timing and then more power. And who would just bolt on a WI kit without changing the tune.... plenty of people. Trust me!
This is a good part 1 video, and results are results, hopefully part 2 will shed some light onto how good WI can be, i ran in on a similar setup to this a 69mm turbo 13bt running 28psi on pump 98 with it (back before E85 was a thing in aus) how many rotary's run that much boost on pump fuel? also run it on a car with an n/a computer with a turbo and hotpipe (budget setup) but it definitely stopped all issues i had with knock with the n/a timing map. basically the more you slow the flame front and drop cylinder temps the less power you will make, the same goes for running afr's richer, hopefully you guys turn up the boost to get that huffer working and sort out those power killing afr's, goodluck
Ashley Petersen this was an education video to show people don’t just buy a WI kit and dump it all in the engine without optimising the tune, otherwise results will be poor. The car has a tune in it for e85, the car is a race car. It’s time to go racing. If we do any follow up it will be more than likely on 100% methanol and at 30psi boost with real world mph numbers. Plenty of videos on internet about how much power to be made from water injection when used properly. This was to show what happens when it’s not.
I think your IAT is off or something funky is going on? We see 20°C drops on Barra turbo's with a 50/50 mix (20+ psi boost) plus the longer you're into it the better it works. This is with 98oct so knock limited before the water/meth... Rotaries are a different beast and your air is totally different to Nth Qld's shit humidity though!
That’s going to totally depend on ambient air temp, humidity, your intercooler and it’s efficiency, your turbo, exhaust size and engine. The temp readings here are correct for the conditions and the setup on this vehicle
But do it on a standard car that has heat soak problems. And a Ecu that self adjusts. And is constantly pulling when things get hot Like most new factory turbo cars Rather than a tuned race engine already running a fixed map ecu and a very high knock resistant fuel
No follow up on this? The water/meth also saturates the IAT sensor and reports false "over cool" readings that don't represent the actual charge temp as a whole. So we can't use the data provided by thermistor type temp probes. If the reported numbers were true, methanol inj would be more efficient than the typical A2A intercoolers. Which isn't the case, proven by power output VS IAT on the dyno. Without the common distribution issues, I'd think a rotary could go extremely far with a TON of methanol injection directly in each runner. While I Don't think you need much additional timing, you could run a much healthier amount of boost.
Hang on a sec, guys you cant say e85, with 100% water ,then there's just water in the tank or fuel system, or even 100% methanol, its must have a X % of E85 then X amount of Meth/water etc %. cheers guys but very interesting what about a interchiller to cool down the temps via A/C gas running to cool the turbo and front cooler etc. :) Maybe try that system its does work cheers :)
the water system is a stand alone system with its own pump and injection nozzle. Interchiller works by reducing the water in a water to air system to near freezing I believe ? If you just froze the pipe you aren’t going to pass much of that on to the air flowing through the system.
Well not really a surprise. E85 is already adding the benefits to it. Most cars that have seen those Dramatic increases are on pump 98RON - E85 (is not really pump when you can't get it everywhere) Most of what was new Direct injection motors with limited fuel pump and larger injectors available without adding port. Are the cars that seem to of had the best improvements with the water meth injection. IMO primarily use non dyno tuned - Internet COBB shit tunes download tunes. With these injection systems helping to cover holes in those tunes where individual engines setup differences don't come into play. I think you are still correct. Because really. Everything should be re tuned to get the most out of everything.It's 2020 once you have the control be it a edit program or ecu. it's not like a old carby you have to a set of new jets be more interesting to see results on a edgy DI petrol engine on pump 98ron. Particularly how much can be dialed into it
Putting it in simple terms an engine makes power from the amount of oxygen you can get into the combustion chamber(not fuel) and when you add water you are replacing some of the oxygen with liquid which is why you lose power
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I suspect starting out with e85 really limits any benefit from the bolt on approach. Especially if it is already tuned a bit rich. If you were using 98 RON (93 AKI) maybe there would be more of a difference due to cooling effects of vaporizing the water/meth. I think you kind of hinted at this in the middle of the video.
It would be interesting to see this on a less optimized setup. I am thinking a street car where to owner has changed nothing hardware wise and the only other mod is a tune using an off the shelf map. Now the stock turbo is running farther from it's peak efficiency, and the stock intercooler is getting heat soaked quickly. This probably better approximates the situation most people watching this find themselves in. For this to work in a bolt on way the charge air temperature would need to be pretty high. 44.3 °C coming out of the intercooler isn't that high.
I've had a PWM controlled water methanol injection setup on a modified turbo diesel hatch, with it added without being tuned for it, the car picked up 7KW at the front wheels on the dyno just having the 49/51 mix of water/methanol spraying into the intake.
The nozzle was too small though and it wasn't enough spray for the engine.
Works really well on diesel.
Diesel is a complete different animal to gas engines and are fuel modulated not throttle like gas engines
It works incredibly well on any forced induction vehicle not running E85 either... this video is incredibly misleading
I once ran a car that wasn't tuned for meth or e85 with WMI and about 30% e85 in the tank. It actually ran amazingly well with a noticeable gain in power and reduction in 0-60. The fuel trims were actually good (-7% short, -2% long) timing advance stayed higher overall.
I was running about 50% meth. Boost temps dropped to nearly ambient.
I was using a snow stage 2 progressive kit, didn't have it full duty cycle. I set spray to start at 2psi max at 50psi. Most boost the car saw was 15psi. So as you can tell it never went full duty cycle.
Just putting my experience out there.
I dont know to much about e85, but I do know that on a pump gas vehicle you wouldnt see such drastic power drops from adding water meth with out the tuning, in fact you barely notice the power drop at all and its a great mod to ensure that you dont get knock when pushing the car to the limit. I have been running meth injection kits for 20 years and its amazing how much boost you can run on pump gas.
Ive used methanol in this way before many times. To make any decent power you really need to substitute a large portion of your base fuel with some decent flowing jets. Most guys just go to a dedicated secondary fuel system with injectors these days. A basic small aftermarket W/M kit is only going to give average gains. Tuning is 100% needed.
i dont know why i even watched the video after you said you wouldnt adjust the tune to suit in injection.
next video you should adjust the tune to suit
Hi TIM just saw this its same for a prop elevation changes it
I built my own water/meth system for my paxton windsor. I run 50:50 water/meth. I think common sense (which is not too common) tells you that you are not going to get any gains from bolting this on alone, because the true benefits come from the fact you can push the tune harder. It's kinda like switching to E85 and not tuning. Adding the methanol means you're going to be running richer right off the bat as well, so doing it without tuning is a bit silly unless you were lean to start with. The reason that the water is used is because the cylinder quenching properties of the water is way higher than methanol alone. The energy obsorbed by water changing state from liquid to gas is way higher, so it can absorb a lot more heat in the cylinder than methanol can. But methanol evaporates very easily, so gives good cooling of the intake charge before it reaches the cylinder. It also increases the octane over pump fuel. My intake temps on a run before meth would go above 70 (only 10 psi boost), and after adding water/meth the intake temp drops to just over 30 degrees and stays there.
You’d be surprised how many people out there would bolt one of these on without changing anything else haha. TOONER.
40 degree difference???? I assume this is in Fahrenheit? Amazing
Might make more sense if Celsius actually. Which would be a 100 degree Fahrenheit difference…
This is exactly the kind of comparison I have been looking for. All of the other water / meth installs I've seen involve a new tune before the next dyno.
Well, the answer was as expected. Make with part 2 already where you actually tune it. I've got some circuit race track results of water/meth injection on my channel for a completely different setup. 4cyl, 11.5:1 compression, 10psi inefficient roots blower and tiny factory intercooler...on pump 98. Water meth works very well in keeping power consistent lap after lap. I added 4 deg timing (28 deg total) and trim fuel out around 12% when injecting 50/50 meth water. This on a 300HP (CRANK) motor with 300cc min wm injection rate (measure, not claimed nozzle rate).
Have you tried %100 water
@@johnwestgarth2830 No. I do run 1/3 methanol and 2/3 water mix now though.
Didn't think the drop off would be that high thanks fellas loving the project car builds
I think it depends on what ECU you’re running. I’ve dynoed my Mazda Cx7 (same engine as Mazda 3/6 MPS) and saw a 5 -6hp gain all across the rev range when it was on factory setting (unflashed) running a small 63cc jet. Seems like the ecu detects the cooler air and runs more timing (u can evidently see 1-2 degrees more). Running 50/50 mix.
Do You inject before MAF or after ?
@@tytan84pl It would have to be before the MAF/MAP for the ECU to compensate
The intercooler is already enough and there is fuel enough to cool, so knocking or hot intake air is not a problem on this build.
The kit should help if running on a stock setup with boost turned up, the now undersized intercooler with a undersized turbo leaving its most efficient work area and fuel injectors that can not spray more to cool everything down again.
You won’t lose power if you have a car that runs a variable timing system, such as the 2015+ Mustangs. The OAR if the tune is set correctly can add up to 6 additional degrees of timing if it sees that fueling is good.
Is the next vid going to be of a water / meth kit setup and tune properly?
We will take it to the track and show some real world testing of it all.
Might you see better results running on gasoline rather than E85?
exactly, the high the octane the hotter it gets, which is why people tune for E85 to run cooler and less flammable. Should retest on 91+
For sure, imo water meth is a great bandaid for people that want more power on pump gas and don’t have access to e85.
i did do a dyno test on my scirocco 160 hp with water meth 50 to 50 without any software programmiing... got a gain from 29 HP
Yes please do another video where you tune it for the same ratios. Ie 100% water etc.. I just hooked up my 100% water system today. Still need to test. Pre-compressor BTW.
The best expression of a water methanol/water injection setup is going to be on a large diesel engine, especially a turbo setup. Diesels are monitoring NOx and add more fuel to use it as coolant to keep things cool to reduce NOx, so it also improves MPG as well as power.
Great back to back there guys! 12° IAT drop is awesome!
Will be interesting to see how the red rocket flies down the 1320 with some more pressure on the dome!
Use a wideband for tuning. It reads in lambda and doesnt care what fuel(s) are being burned.
Interested in a pt2 where you tune for it.
Love the vids mate been watching for years. Just about to go down the water/meth kit for my rx4 coupe here in Melbourne. Which kit do you prefer aem, snow etc. thanks for the help in asvance
Ethanol and methanol are very similar and you already get the benefits from water meth with E85. If you did this with gasoline your results would be different but you'd still want tuning to get the most out of it.
With the right piggyback or ECU tune and proper WMI injection kit, you can increase power by 50 or more whp.
Looks like water/meth is not the effective when running E85 which is mostly alcohol already. I'd like to see this test with pump gas, the results would be a lot different.
what size jet were you running?
probably would have worked better if they didn't inject the water 3 inches before a bend in the pipe too. I think they are over spraying.
Now is this comparable to a car on 98 running the different injection set-ups?, being that e85 already has cooling properties, would you say the power loss would be less seeing as alot of stock ecu's pull timing with temp and if you run water/meth it's going to keep it nice and cool and at its best all year around? I don't disagree that to make the most you need a tune though, love the video guys keep up the good work!!
Plus the water meth is great for us with direct injection to clean our vales so its not all bad i guess :)
i agree, its hard to compare with E85. engines respond well with it... my car is ok so far, my diesel bloody loves it. its like a nitrous hit.
@@damianblazevic1518 LOL
Exactly. In that situation (90% cars on road )
A bolt on kit would gain power and be more consistent
As the ecu would not be pulling timing
With the car already having E85 the meth is just an added cooling property. To turn up the boost even higher.
What interests me about this is, your tune stays constant. But if someone is running a turbo car with a factory ECU, they usually lose power because the factory ECU will pull timing. But if they want to turn up the boost and add water/meth injection wouldn't the factory ECU add timing back in? Also less chance of detonation I would think.
On a diesel engine your egt's skyrocket if you inject pure methanol, but the extra power is insane (it's like hitting the nitrous button)
That's BS man. I'm seeing huge gains on my Datsun 120Y with my modified bike pump forced induction :P
Me to. These guys Are full of shit!!! I'm goin to post another vid to combat this vid.
I think you have missed the point! They never said you won't see gains, they clearly said you won't see gains with the injection system alone!
Id like to do water only! Love the concept but dont know much about where to start. Any ideas?
@@Justa4banger79 have you posted your combat video or are you all talk?
@@driftsteve
My tuner sold his dyno. REALLY. HES SUPPOSEDLY GETTING A MUSTANG DYNO. I hope so. I'll end up going to stinger if worst case. But. I'm so busy. I still am working things out on the car. Soooo much todo with no personal space. I'm looking into renting a shop space or unit. Idk. I have the fittings to jump into the final touches. I'm going for a solid 500hp at 25 psi. Idk. Maybe juice it on the boosg up.
So did this get tuned, if so what was the numbers? This would have concluded this video perfectly.
great comparison! What happen in diesel engines with the same tests??
Commenting from 2022 i'm surprised nobody mentioned the cost benefits... a 3 dollar bottle of washer fluid will last a full tank of fuel, so you could theoretically run regular lower cost 87 octane and use water/meth to make up the difference, which is still cheaper than using higher octane fuel to start with..
I'm pretty sure I read some guys with diesels run water injection because it keeps the engine clean.
. . . and EGT down. BTW, it cleans ALL engines.
that's one of the main reasons anyone already running E85 has WMI, engine safety/care.... not the massive performance gains they're looking for here.
They should revisit this and find MBT with WMI on/off. Or achieve MBT and then increase boost until reaching knock limit. That would show the true potential of WMI.
With tuning on something running 98 would be awesome, ethanol is still not easy to come by in some areas
does it also make less power on a turbo diesel if you strap it straith on without adjustments? I heard the results on diesels are much better than petrol engines.
E85 doesn't need Water/Meth injection.
but RON98/102 you get a good Benefit there.
How NOT to install a WMI system.
for real.
Retrospectively less timing means less aggressive combustions and less boost.
Hi guys! Was the experience of injection of water-methanol on a naturally aspirated engine without a turbo? It would be very interesting to hear or read about it. (:
What were the boost curve comparisons between them, could some of the power drop be attributed to boost curve, it might not be the case but it would be have been good to compare boost curves.
If I(a cheap bastard) ever were to install water injection it would be primarily as a safety net(detonation, pre-ignition, crazy EGT) and cheap "in cylinder" steam cleaning.
Any torque or HP increases would be just a BONUS.👌🏻
Awesome vid! Very informative
So my mates stage 3 chip he got off eBay for his barra won't add 1100hp?? He'll be devastated. Owell lucky he has a loud a stereo to drown that awful noise his car makes every time he starts it.
I think my early 2000s ECU would love water injection because it depends heavily on knock sensors and air temp for it's timing map, runs absolutely insane in colder temps
Still no news about the brake replacement on the Vf Redline wagon, how are they going noises squealing and stopping power compared to the stock brembo pads etc. please do a update and also the measurements of the new rotors after now placing ultimate pads from bendix and the same for the rears rotors as well, just interesting to see how much metal is removed due to the ultimate bendix pads v's the OE Rotors that's all ?
There will be zero chance of that video being made. I wouldn’t even watch that ! They are going great and better than they were before.
Could you do these same tests but on a Diesel engine? I understand on a gas engine you have to have the correct air/fuel ratio but on a diesel you can (more or less) add fuel and it will add power. I’m just curious what it would do for a diesel on a factory tune.
Id like to do water only! Love the concept but dont know much about where to start. Any ideas?
By chance what size nozzle was used for injection? Asking for a friend
👀
What this shows is your custom tune is running as rich as possible which isn't normal unless you are running a dyno to meticulously tune it that way. This also shows you are probably missing potential where if fell off when you were running 100% methanol. Perhaps this is because the higher octane of the methanol having benefits at higher rpm? Perhaps you aren't advanced enough on your current fuel? Which would also prevent any gains. An engine with a knock sensor and self advancing timing would pay off or if you were more aggressive with your timing im general. If you think about it, the water is also offsetting the air in the chambers which is further enriching your fuel. So you have a few things that most people wouldn't be facing, 1. Fully saturated air to fuel ratio, 2. you are probably dumping a little extra fuel past saturation to mitigate heat that the cooling system cant handle, 3. Loosing boost from lower exhaust gas pressure. So you are half right. MOsT people would benefit only those who are tuned to the gills should have a negative effect.
E-85 has great cooling effects you would get more gains if you were running gasoline
The theory behind water injection was implemented on German fighter planes to run higher boost without destroying the engine with preignition knock. They only used it if they had to run crappy fuel on good fuel it was a waste of time.
The theory behind today’s systems is to cool intake charges, spraying the outside of an inter cooler can give better benefit without messing with tunes etc.
It was the allies not the Germans that did it. The alcohol was ethanol and was only used to prevent freezing at altitude, it's the water that does the real work. It allows planes to fly higher and faster
@@1magnit . Actually No
The allies examined it as a means of extending the range of bombers but determined ir was little benefit due to the extra weight. The Germans actually used it for the same reason as lead foots do but only on a few fighters and only because of crap fuel. They used it to give them upto twenty minutes of superboost before the water tanks ran dry, on good fuel they had no such time limit . There are government white papers in it from both the US and Germany and TH-cam vids on it.
Great vid! I see this thumbnail won!
Would full bolt ons, a catless downpipe, and a piggy back that increases boost justify as a tune for the addition of a meth kit?
Broomy did you end up any further testing on the dyno?
My butt dyno tells a different story. Just installed a progressively controlled WMI system on my focus ST and haven't got it retuned yet, it feels like my car pulls significantly harder. I would say there's no way I lost power, MAYBE it stayed the same but it sure doesn't feel that way.
This video will mislead a lot of guys with little experience.. water meth can save your engine and gives big advantage to cars running small turbos high boost with small intercoolers pushing limits. In this case the system is already very efficient running e85.. 100kw less I laugh
Water met is for forced induction not NA. Also for fuels that have a lower flash point than ethanol.
Did you guys ever tune this properly before you sold it ?im hoping to get my e85 & meth to work together in my fd gt35r maybe you have any tips
What is next? Watch this before installing larger ID Injectors?* Watch this before upgrading an upgraded or adding a turbo?* Watch this before installing a stroker kit?* *Without re-tuning.
😂😂😂
Great info. Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to the next instalment.
E85 is a race fuel. Most ppl and car enthusiasts are running petrol.
So I think that by lowering the intake temps you will gain power. Because think of summer. The intercooler cant lower temps below ambient. Do a couple of hard runns and you get hest soak. ESPECIALLY with a smaller turbo turned up high. The air charge will go up to 50C and more.
The ECU is simply going to detect knock and retard timing thus you loose power.
So cooling air charge even without writing it into the map is effective in my opinion.
Also any change in air fuel ratio is going to be detected by the o2 sensor and ECU compensate.
Also if you write the w/m into the map you will have to be careful not to end up with an empty w/m reservoir.
Is this the right place to mention that that's about the same power a ls3 with bolt on makes?
Did you see the torque curve.
Get back to class chief.
@@lop8828 well no, if I'm not mistaken every graph is only KW.
And I dont think you understood the joke either buddy.
The biggest benefit is for people that are octane limited with pump fuel , no e85 availability. No water meth can only run about 8-9 psi with water meth about 15-16 psi on my personal setup, 10:1 compression
In WA we are limited to e85 at a handful of servos but you can't rely on them even having it in stock. Have been curious about running meth injection on a 12.5:1 comp n/a Ls1.. But if the pump fails I'm not sure how you would have a fail safe to stop the engine from grenading itself
Crazy didnt think they would loose that much.
You lost me on "Fuel part of this equation won't change". One of the reasons for WMI is to alter AFR. It richens the mixture hence the ECU can advance timing to make it leaner. All you end up doing is flooding the system with too less air and too much fuel.
If you are loosing power, you installed your WMI wrong, simple as that.
I haven't watched in full but you need to adjust tuning for your fuel type otherwise it does nothing. Like running Premium high octane fuel on a normal car. Only really a benefit of you tune for it.
E85 already has a cooling effect. you'll see your biggest gains when running pump gas. if you use 2 things that have a cooling effect then 1 gets cancelled out and you can lose power by cooling the combustion too much. run pump gas and retest you'll see different results.
i should add that your point about tuning is accurate though you won't see the full effects unless you tune but that can be said about any modification.
is there a follow up video?
Hey there love the channel guys, what auto are u running?
This car has a modified jatco 3 speed
Can someone please do this on 91 and 93 octane pump. E85 base doesn't give you a fair comparison
What about with 98 as the fuel. E85 is alcohol based already
Still waiting for info on the Betty build
Correct me if I’m wrong but running e85+ meth would be running way too rich? That’s why you lose a power?
to quantify data then a final run on e85 should be done to rule out any variables.
All of these tests were done in the same location on a dyno within an hour of each other.
Who on earth would just bolt water-methanol and jus roll with it? 50/50 will give you the best results. You need to keep injecting until the engine almost chokes on it and then back off a little. This is what Rodney at Pro Meth has suggested to everybody and the result after TUNING is more power. Methanol does pull lots of heat, but water can pull more BTU than meth, you have to keep increasing the amount of water injected until temps no longer drop because of saturating the air. Then give the boost and ignition a crank and it will make more power again. There is more oxygen in Methanol so you'll get additional power increase from that, what is why 50/50 is best. If you want to run 100% Methanol, get VP M5 which is 5% Nitromethane.... That will put some kick into it, most cars 30-40 whp OVER 50/50 or E85.
Yeah you will get more from pure methanol generally because it’s a fuel and has energy. Water has no energy, all the water can do is remove heat from the combustion process to enable more timing and then more power. And who would just bolt on a WI kit without changing the tune.... plenty of people. Trust me!
Water does have energy without water nothing in this planet including the car would survive
Looking forward to the results of tuned 100% meth injection
This is a good part 1 video, and results are results, hopefully part 2 will shed some light onto how good WI can be, i ran in on a similar setup to this a 69mm turbo 13bt running 28psi on pump 98 with it (back before E85 was a thing in aus) how many rotary's run that much boost on pump fuel? also run it on a car with an n/a computer with a turbo and hotpipe (budget setup) but it definitely stopped all issues i had with knock with the n/a timing map. basically the more you slow the flame front and drop cylinder temps the less power you will make, the same goes for running afr's richer, hopefully you guys turn up the boost to get that huffer working and sort out those power killing afr's, goodluck
Part 2 will be smashing tyres at the race track whenever they open again !
@@BroomysGarage not gonna tune it on the dyno with water meth to show the results? Or was this vid more of a dig at WI?
Ashley Petersen this was an education video to show people don’t just buy a WI kit and dump it all in the engine without optimising the tune, otherwise results will be poor. The car has a tune in it for e85, the car is a race car. It’s time to go racing. If we do any follow up it will be more than likely on 100% methanol and at 30psi boost with real world mph numbers. Plenty of videos on internet about how much power to be made from water injection when used properly. This was to show what happens when it’s not.
Change the tune for it. Duhhhh.
How does this compare on a diesel
Do lower EGTs = less boost? Thank you.
Do you have any ping data?
So if you install a water methanol injection system but don't tune for it, you lose power? No shit, Sherlock.
I think your IAT is off or something funky is going on? We see 20°C drops on Barra turbo's with a 50/50 mix (20+ psi boost) plus the longer you're into it the better it works. This is with 98oct so knock limited before the water/meth...
Rotaries are a different beast and your air is totally different to Nth Qld's shit humidity though!
That’s going to totally depend on ambient air temp, humidity, your intercooler and it’s efficiency, your turbo, exhaust size and engine. The temp readings here are correct for the conditions and the setup on this vehicle
Where is your EGT prob mounted? I see about 730°C 0.75 lambda on e85 with both probs about 2" away from exhaust ports.
About 2” from the port.
But do it on a standard car that has heat soak problems. And a Ecu that self adjusts. And is constantly pulling when things get hot
Like most new factory turbo cars
Rather than a tuned race engine already running a fixed map ecu and a very high knock resistant fuel
Surely car guys dont really think that by adding a water meth kit it will make a difference by its self without adding boost timing.
Read Facebook lately ? Lol 😂
Yes but what happens when you tune it in
No follow up on this? The water/meth also saturates the IAT sensor and reports false "over cool" readings that don't represent the actual charge temp as a whole. So we can't use the data provided by thermistor type temp probes. If the reported numbers were true, methanol inj would be more efficient than the typical A2A intercoolers. Which isn't the case, proven by power output VS IAT on the dyno. Without the common distribution issues, I'd think a rotary could go extremely far with a TON of methanol injection directly in each runner. While I Don't think you need much additional timing, you could run a much healthier amount of boost.
What about pre turbo water injection?
I thought that also would be best place to put it
Hang on a sec, guys you cant say e85, with 100% water ,then there's just water in the tank or fuel system, or even 100% methanol, its must have a X % of E85 then X amount of Meth/water etc %. cheers guys but very interesting what about a interchiller to cool down the temps via A/C gas running to cool the turbo and front cooler etc. :) Maybe try that system its does work cheers :)
the water system is a stand alone system with its own pump and injection nozzle. Interchiller works by reducing the water in a water to air system to near freezing I believe ? If you just froze the pipe you aren’t going to pass much of that on to the air flowing through the system.
Well not really a surprise. E85 is already adding the benefits to it. Most cars that have seen those Dramatic increases are on pump 98RON - E85 (is not really pump when you can't get it everywhere)
Most of what was new Direct injection motors with limited fuel pump and larger injectors available without adding port. Are the cars that seem to of had the best improvements with the water meth injection. IMO primarily use non dyno tuned - Internet COBB shit tunes download tunes. With these injection systems helping to cover holes in those tunes where individual engines setup differences don't come into play.
I think you are still correct. Because really. Everything should be re tuned to get the most out of everything.It's 2020 once you have the control be it a edit program or ecu. it's not like a old carby you have to a set of new jets
be more interesting to see results on a edgy DI petrol engine on pump 98ron. Particularly how much can be dialed into it
Do people really think if you plug in water meth then it magically increases power without a tune?
Also water meth is better on 98 not E85.
The one downvote water methed before watching the video
No 431 curve on the graph???
Putting it in simple terms an engine makes power from the amount of oxygen you can get into the combustion chamber(not fuel) and when you add water you are replacing some of the oxygen with liquid which is why you lose power
Can you advise what injection rate you used for this test, or better still, what rates you use when tuned to suit?
Psssst....Don't tell Broomy but he has his hat on backwards ;)
I had a light behind me. Had to stop my neck from getting burnt
So about 402 horsepower?
Thanks!