Dealership couldn't fix this AC problem
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video we Diagnose and fix an Ac system on a Alfa Romeo 159 that
hasn't been working for years.
It went to multiple workshops including a dealership in Italy but nobody was able to fix it!
Enjoy!
For Topdon products:
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Discount Code for Phoenix Max:
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European contact: oscar@topdon.com
For business inquiries (not for technical questions);
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For Topdon producs used in this video;
US link: www.topdon.us/products/phoenix-max
Discount Code for Phoenix Max:
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European contact: oscar@topdon.com
Topdon, does not have a European store/shop?
Re your question Dan.......
Maybe the Body control unit had been changed ??
So many places had worked on it.
Did you check all the vin numbers in the VIN configuration menu?
I only work on Rover 75's and my T4 Diagnostics would have alerted me of a VIN mismatch.
Then it offers a Reconfigure function which realignes everything with the security modules (if they are original!!)
It's a shame all the original parts used weren't in the boot to play with as most were probably perfectly ok !
So many places these days throw a "parts roulette" at faults they have no understanding of.
You and I on the other hand like to prove things with data and resistance checks before expensive parts are bought 😎
Keep going Dan, your workshop and techniques are amazing 👏
Hy Dan,
please help me with clio 3 3door 2007 1.2tce, my boot pop up all time, did change microswich and lock, no change.
Electrician check it and all wires can't find a problem. He think maybe body computer but is not entirely sure.
Lock pop up and stay in open position, El motor keep working, know that because it is hot as hell.
What would you suggest to check or give a diagnose Dan :).
Hi Dan, I used to be an automotive air con specialist, and these European cars were a constant battle to diagnose, your video demonstrates the issues inherent with them. The fact that the BCM is telling you it is a 2.4 DT engine after alignment is scary and that the ac controller is a one-time coding is terrifying. Given we know what the issue ended up being, another alternative fix which would have saved the customer money would be to hotwire the variable displacement control valve from the ac compressor clutch feed to ensure when the ac calls for cooling both the clutch and valve are engaged. This may or may not however create controller PID controllability issues. Another alternative would have been to use the old controller and install a compressor from a 2.4 DT which doesn't have the variable displacement control valve. Variable displacement in theory is a cool idea, forgive the pun, but I believe is an unnecessary additional feature and system component to go wrong and keeping it simple with a standard controller and compressor would have been Alfas best format. The stories we as diagnostic technicians accumulate over the years is amazing. Good to see you are documenting yours for the edification and benefit of others.
The valve is PWM controlled, supplying it with 12V over a longer period of time might overheat the coil
I think on an older car I would have put a 12v feed to a switch and a resistor to bring the voltage down to the valve.
Nice one Clifford, I was going to suggest the same thing to Dan regarding the compressor, I'm a DIY enthusiast currently working on my Jag xf ac. A compressor from a 2.4d and the old control panel for a 2.4d should work straight away.
Sure seems like it would and for a heck of a lot cheaper!
Yeah I was thinking either bodge the wiring or swap the compressor for one without a valve. Why is it scary that the panel was coded wrong? Seems very likely someone previously tried swapping it in an attempt to fix the AC.
Alfa owner (156 before, Giulia now) and DIYer here: I don't agree about the "only one" proxy writing procedure: I did it MANY times on my Giulia 2017 with a simple but very powerful software called "MultiEcuScan" on my PC, connected with an USB-to-ODB2 adapter "odblink sx" and it worked flawlessly all the time: I added front parking sensors (using and reprogramming an 8 channel parking sensor module coming from another car), I reprogrammed an ETM (newer version with DAB and Android Auto) coming from a Stelvio, I activated the auto high beams, I activated the compass in my infotainment, I activated the adaptive cruise control, I installed and activated (modifying the proxy setup of my body computer) the backup camera and so on...
The proxy is just a string of byte stored in the body (BCM) and the "alignment" simply copies it into all the car modules. You change one bit out of that 255 byte string and you can change the behavior of something. Of course you need to know what to do, but an alignment is ultra simple to do and can be done as many times as you want.
Also, normally these modules doesn't show the engine type in their data, so that reading about 2.4l engine can be whatever your scanner sees from the proxy.
I agree. Proxi alignment should write the BCM data to a used module. Done it myself with Autel scanners and data written to used modules correctly and fault codes cleared.
Happy to be proven wrong as usual....every day is a school day.
There must have been a cold sweat moment when that new 1000 EU+ module showed the same incorrect engine code as the other ones! Great fix!
Yes my hearth skipped a beat🤣
Hi Dan, i think i can answer your question. First of all the two climate control modules are from different model year as you already found. First one was from the first Alfa Romeo 159 and was produced till early 2008. Afterwards they put the new module with off button and different drawings. As you already found the module needs proxy alignment procedure so to know what type of hardware it will control. You tried this with aftermarket diagnostic tool which i think was the problem. FIAT group (in which Alfa are) are not great fans of ordinary staff and so they use body computer to comunicate with various modules through can bus, but not the standart can signal. So there is slight difference. There is a program which is specific to Alfa Romeo and is called Multi ECU Scan. With that tool everything should work fine without need of brand new module. I have seen many ot these to be retrofitted with different type of extras including changing climate control from 2 to 3 zone with just proxy alignment done with multi ecu scan.
Excellent!
Hello. Your explanation appears to be reasonable and likely accurate. I am not an expert in this field, so I cannot confirm or deny your theory. However, I am curious about one aspect. If your explanation is correct, why was the dealership in Italy unable to resolve the issue? Presumably, they have the necessary tools and software to do so.
The reason for this is probably quite simple. They dont want to do it, as the module was second hand, it was from different model year and they could sell you something very expensive rather than investing some time to fix the problem. It will also require additional knowledge from the mechanic performing the task. Nothing is impossible but the question is at what cost.
and this is why you can break in to fiat cars by the can bus from the radar for the cruise controll
@@alinzmeul excellent question
There is NO better start to your week than when DD drops a new video!!!
INDEED! i quit everything i'm doing to watch his videos the moment they're released! Once, i woke up to a notification altert & ended up enjoying DD going through an X6 at 2 in the morning 🤣
That's great to hear!
Watching Dan find and correct an elusive problem like this is almost as satisfying as having done it myself.
I think you would be an excellent instructor.
I'm a nurse, don't know anything of this stuf. Yet, I love to watch your video's because of the way you explain things.
You're a mechanical genius and it shows. So many others (including dealerships) gave up because it wasn't worth their time to actually figure out what was wrong. Super awesome how you diagnosed this!!
Even if they thought it was worth their time, if they took all the time in the world, they could not have fixed it. They don't have the mental tools in their toolboxes. You have to be smarter than the technology you're working on if you want to be able to have a ghost of a chance of fixing it... With each passing year cars get more complicated.
I mean let’s be fair, it’s Italian so it’s already over engineered and not in a good way plus Alfa’s are notorious for horrible life expectancy. These are essentially cars that look visually stunning but are normally only kept 2-3 years because of how badly they’re done.
Thank you!
@@fredflintstone8048
@@kathrineculver696
I've had my Alfa 156 for 23 years and it's my daily driver. I have one electrical earth issue only, everything else has been maintenance you should do on any car. And that's the problem with most cars, lack of proper maintenance.
Had a similar problem with a Range Rover years ago. The A/C control panel failed and wouldn't power on the electro magnetic compressor clutch. My diagnostic skills are basic and crude in comparison but I did establish that the ac clutch would engage if hot wired and as a new cabin control module wax hideously expensive I installed a relayed switch to electrify the compressor when needed.
It may have been a Heath Robinson fix but it was a welcome solution on 40c + degree days here in the Australian summer.
Years on we now have three more recent and complex European vehicles (a BMW, VW and Mercedes) which I am attempting to maintain (and by necessity) using a reasonably capable scan tool as my earlier repair methods are largely ineffective.
I am only just skimm8ng the surface of electronic diagnosis and your very well presented and carefully explained videos are apart from being extremely interesting very helpful.
Thank you Dan for providing such valuable information and giving us all the benifit of your wisdom, logic and experience.
It is greatly appreciated.
Wow thanks for your great comment
Build a 5€ electronic circuit with 555 timer that puts a 65% duty cycle signal at that frequency in the compressor when ac on. LoL.
😁
What is the maximum voltage 5v or 12 v
@@Spark-Hole 14V but works as 14x0,65
I was thinking the same thing and you can hook the Arduino up to a evaporator fin or pipe temperature sensor on the suction line 2 very duty cycle depending on temperature so you have full control .
Easy middle school high school level Arduino coding simple cheap software $.50 thermistor . If it was my own personal car.
I’ve never seen this problem and I hope I never do that took some research in frustration glad you found the problem and fixed it.
Having worked on Fiat/Alfa for many years I have seen this kind of typo in ECU settings many times on their cars. It looks to me like it just says 2.4 instead fo 2.0 as the 2.4 diesel is a 5 cylinder and therefore a 20 valve engine, so basically it's just a typo and they are not uncommon. Almost all control units are not interchangable on Fiat/Alfa cars. Nice to see an Alfa on the channel. Great Video, keep them coming.
As always - incredible reverse engineering skills demonstrated. As an automotive engineer, I highly appreciate that and I also know how hard and time-consuming is to acquire those skills with the time.
All best regards from Bulgaria! 🇧🇬
Hi Pawel it can be quite time consuming at times, especially because there are so many different brands / models / systems
ooo, zdr
@@Diagnosedan yeah, the wide variety of brands and platforms generations is what make it so challenging.
As a Mechanical Engineering Consultant, I appreciate Dan for increasing my Knowledge.
Thanks David
@@Diagnosedan Dan:
Please diagnose cars with Speed/ Cruise Control problems. I noticed most scan tools don't have the Bidirectional Control for the Steering Wheel Switches.
Another award winning job! Keep up the good work!
You truly are the Sherlock Holmes of automotive diagnostics. Alfas can be tricky at the best of times (I've owned 8). Build quality can vary wildly even within the same model. Probably something to do with the temperamental nature of Italians throwing any old part in at finishing time on Friday.
Great job.
😂 Your last sentence.
You have got to love the Italians😁🇮🇹
That was the same as the Peugeot staff then...
I am from India......very useful diagnostic......ideal diagnostisdan
What a head scratcher. Good fix. Remember years ago there was a v-8 engine which could not get engine to warm up. With a lot of trail and error we found some one put the wrong head gaskets on. They were ported in wrong place and bypass the thermostat.
Wow this probably was a very aggravating diag!!! I can only imagine that pissed off meter was relevant to what ever engine it was you were working on!!!
That must have been a hard one to find
Diagnose dan fix it again...and shed some light again..
Dan you are the King of diagnostics, every morning during my morning coffee break I religiously watch one of your videos and your tutorials are just awesome. Watching a few each morning just relaxes me and sets me up for the day.
Dan is the MAN. I LOVE this channel
THANKS!
Hi Dan! I was recently struggling with the same issue on my 159 2.0jtdm, same a/c control unit, same compressor. Swapped the clima control with another used one and done the proxy alignement but nothing still happened. Thanks to this video today I repaired the broken fan on the clima control unit sensor and put it back on the car and now everything works fine. I love my car but I hate Alfa's engineers with all myself😂
I can imagine the happiness of the owner and to how much people he will recommend Dan.
From now on Dan is his God :D
Dan is my God too :D
Hi Dan, you mentioned that the new climate control module inherits the data from the BCM while doing the proxy alignment. Could it be that the BCM has 2.4 diesel data stored instead of petrol data that's not causing any DTCs as far as the BCM is concerned? Thanks for always bringing great content 🙏
This was my thought, too. Could the BCM have been replaced/programmed incorrectly?
He discovered the control module wasn't working and reported the wrong engine size? Big red flag, I would have reprogrammed the BMC right there.
@@lo1234-w9r: If you reprogram BCM, isn't AC module still a problem due to limit of one synchronization session?
You are a genius with cars.
This video was a random recommendation, but maaan, from a fellow IT tech, a proper way to diagnose step-by-step, you earn my respect in literally 3 seconds I saw this video. Wishing you all the success!
That's great to hear, thank you!
@@Diagnosedan Passion and professionalism shows instantly 👌
2.4 is what the bmc has stored inside. When the new module was installed and synced, it took all the details, but it did not affect the valve setting.
Absolutely incredible diagnostic and fix. Without taking anything away from all the other diagnostic wizards out there, this one has got to be my absolute favourite diag.
Wow Frank that's great to hear
I had an issue in 2011 with my 2006 Honda Civic 2.2 iCTDi, the AC wouldn't work. Short story, it was at Honda dealer for two weeks. They ended up getting a donor unlocked test ECU from Honda UK for them to try on the car to make sure the ECU wasn't faulty. It worked! So they refitted the original ECU to the car while they were in the process of ordering a new ECU from Honda. The AC started working properly! So the original just needed a reset by powering it down for a while. It's still working fine now 🤣
RE the Alfa, someone somewhere made absolutely sure that people are getting robbed by not allowing any second hand electrical part to be paired to the existing ECU, that's an absolute con!
Well done on the methodical and logical fix.
I don't know how you do it dan....some of the hardest faults to find and you always fix it, keep the videos coming mate, great job😀
Thanks Ronnie
Well dan , you've fixed it again. To answer your question the silly bill programmer simply called it 2.4 and the computer does not care of it's name just it's coding.
Probably an error in mapping tables in your aftermarket scan tool, only comparing with an Alfa/Fiat factory scantool will tell. At least coding worked well or you could have bricked the new ac control panel.
I was thinking the same thing when he said he was going to move ahead and code the new one… what if he locks that one up too!!! Oh man.
I was thinking the same: Try a different scan tool and confirm the same issue, or is it just a glitch.
I had the similar issue with that car at my shop. Customer brought 3 or 4 used panels with good part number. None of them worked. I personally think that it's a problematic module that fails regularly because proxy only aligns the modules to bcm not the other way round. Think of it as a MAC adress that gets noted to BCM. You could leave it an dit will work but the odometer blinks.
You could be right!
So much knowledge, expirence is so important.
Amazing! I was an aircraft mechanic for around 40 years. The industry needs people like you. Aircraft now are going all computer controlled.
Industry needs them but people who could be capable of doing it are not valued enough or at all
Mr. Dan you are one sharp cookie! Love your videos!
Hi Dan,
Regarding your problem with the engine type it might be that someone has changed the vehicule configuration inside the BCM from 2.0D to 2.4D , you can verify and change that inside the BCM.
Always a pleasure to look at your videos.
Wish you all the best
Had this problem with an old ford. Car had been flood damaged so a used bcm was installed and re-progamed but one data had been wrong this put the throttle pedal all out of sink, thinking the used bcm was also faulty, relplaced with yet another £200.00 used part re progamed and worked fine. Had the used part tested and they found nothing wrong apart from it was re-progamed wrong !!
With my aftermarket tool i couldn't see the engine type in the BCM
To shed some light on the whole configuration mystery: this happens more often, fiat/alfa have always had a funny diagnostic system. I discoverd this when a punto 1.4 told my delphi it was a 1.2😅 had to take it to the dealer for programming afterwards (multiair failure) and they told me its the way the coding is translated in the scantool, since it doesn't correlate with can protocol some tools do read correctly and some don't so fault codes will match up but the description won't always match the code itself I.e. lost in translation.. literally
Dan you ! are the Man ! Very professional to the letter well done 👍👨🏻🏭🇬🇧
Gotta love the built-in obsolescence team at FIAT.
Fix it again Tony!
Most likely FIAT used a programming chip that can only be written to once before the flash memory chip starts degrading, hence why coding not allowed.
Insane.. Imagine all this complexity just to turn on and off an AC compressor. lol.. wtf were they thinking. Watching this channel just keeps reminding me to NEVER buy a Euro car.
Your customer is mad 1000 euro for ac cheaper to get a new blank chip soldiered on to existing unit , any tech with some hex editing knowledge should be able to achieve it.
FIAT= Fixed It Again Tony
Italian car manufacturers and the odd crap technicians have to deal with. Nothing is straight forward. You did a great job diagnosing it given the other technicians that were unable to repair it and installing the wrong dash panel.
DiagnosDan,perhaps the sole mechanic that able to solve problems that some other mechanics couldn’t fix. You’re the man
I had this exact problem. I just did the clever thing and wired it to the AC clutch. Worked Great.
Dan, you're brilliant! I learned a lot again. It's shocking, nearly criminal, how they make these parts only one-time programmable, so you cannot use it on another car. A market opportunity for hackers I would say.
There are many technicians out there that can virginise these modules, but this one is quite rare and i could find no one that had done one before
This stuff will make you absolutely crazy. I did the longest army electronics school in 1965-66. Been working on tractors and trucks since age 10 in 1956. Was an IBM large systems customer engineer. Speak 5 programming languages. Have my own shop and also have a good scope, which almost no car mechanics have. Started with A/C work in 1970. This is about as bizarre as a number of other almost unimaginable things I've seen over the years. Just makes your head hurt.
Maybe some has messed with the engine ecu or body computer? I would suggest to use multiecuscan to read the modules and do the alignment on the next one! I had problems with the AC on my 147 1.6L 2002 and no one would try to fix it and the costs they gave me where too high for replacing random parts with out beeing sure if they are defective... i ended up replacing my self the evaporator valve and solve the problem after 4 years with no AC.
For once again you did a perfect job and the customer agreed to fix this amazing car becouse he trusted your diagnose after all these he went throuh!!!
Diagnose Dan DID i again, we need MORE like Dan with modern complicated cars!!!!!
Maybe the BCM was replaced as some point, and it's a 2.4D? 🤔
VAG is similar with their BCMs. A3,S3,Rs3 use the same BCMs, but are coded (VAG verbage Adapted) differently I believe.
Bcm and PCM need to stay together for immo reasons its highly unlikely the Bcm was changed.
What an incredible gift, and educated with mechanics "brain". I only pray you are teaching others your gift that they too will be a "switched on" mechanic to solve and fix problems with cars.
It's a glitch with your top don scanner if u were to hook up the Witech micropod it will show 2.0 liter diesel
Amazing comprehensive analysis! Welldone
My pleasure
Hi Dan, i love the way of your videos are made - intelligent and with a portion of humor! Try to put the wrong programmed module into a very cold fridge (about -40°C) for a few hours and let it warm up slowly and try to reprogram it. The EPROMs in the device may lose it´s programming and may be reprogrammable for another time.
That’s the tip of the day!! Worth trying
No notification on this and prior vid. Great work Dan... interesting puzzle.
It could be the 2.4l engines were actually fitted with two types of AC systems (or the 2.0l as well). When coding, it also could be the controller not only reads the config from the rest of the car, but as well is checking the presence of various components to determine the AC "hardware" type. I would guess the engine type is actually necessary only to adjust to the rpm range (diesels have smaller idle vs redline range) and whether the engine controller needs the "elevated idle" request signal when the AC is running (as the petrol, mainly the smaller ones, do; diesels have way faster acting and more capable idle governor so do not necessarily need such explicite signal from such high load devices as the AC is)
Crazy! Thanks so much for this thorough explanation of a complicated problem.
We love DiagnoseDan. Greetings from Nigeria.
Thank you
Using multi ecu scan you can recode all those modules under proxy aligment. You can change the vehicle configuration as you please and by doing the proxy procedure it calls out all can modules to sign in, then recodes and reorganises all of them. Very usefull tool for the fiat group.
Maybe i should get that tool although i dont work on Fiat or Alfa alot
That info is useful, but how comes the Alfa specialist who worked on it, didn't know this or didn't have the tool? (Or is it that expensive?) I looked at Alfa/Fiat before, but to me, it's an Italian BMW. Nice looking cars with nice performance, but the maintenance/upkeep can be very, very expensive. Shame though, they do look really nice.
I am a DIY guy with mercerdes cars. Our family has got 6 of them and i think its always best to stick to one brand and know all about it so when they break its easier to fix.
My 3 year old son is named daniel, i call him dan. And one day i would love to visit your shop, i recently saw one of your videos where your son was helping you out.
Coming to this car, i think hot wiring the control valve with 9 v would have done the unlucky customer a great saving but i know that a master technician of your caliber would not guarantee such work and so you did not opt for it.
Your videos bring a great deal of knowledge to this world and also the simple and efficient way that you explain stuff is just too good.
Maybe BCM like that AC control panel is borrowed from 2.4 JTD...
Another fine diagnosis thanks for sharing. From Wales.
You are very good at what u do bravo
Thank you very much
Congratulations Dan. I wonder how many others would have had the intelligence and tenacity to work through this one? Not many I suspect.
So there's a PID for engine type.... Is there a PID somewhere for calibration/software ID? Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you besides theories, but, I will leave you with this story:
I'm a GM tech at a dealer. Early this year, I had a 2021 Chevy Camaro 6.2L. Had a code for fuel pump pressure low. Vehicle started normally. But, when going wide open thettle, it did not stutter, it just took longer to react. Accelerator pedal pos 1 and 2 ok. Same with throttle 1 and 2. Watching scantool data: High pressure fuel read 50ish PSI about all the time, regardless of throttle engagement. Low pressure read 0PSI.
I thought about the high pressure pump reading that and considered that it could be strong enough to pump something on its own.
Anyways, next step, replaced the low pressure fuel pump. No more code, no more slow reaction. Great! Right?
Well no, actually. Checking scantool data line for low pressure fuel would intermittently drop to 0psi. Meanwhile, high pressure fuel would always read properly. I thought, oh no, I messed up a connector. Investigated: no wiring problems. Called technical assistance for GM. Was told let's try a few things. Replaced the low pressure fuel pressure sensor, the jumper harness from the body to the fuel tank, and strung new wires from the body side connection at the jumper, all the way back to the ECM. Still, I would have an intermittent 0 psi on the low pressure fuel reading, but I would have no drive ability concerns and no codes.
So, after multiple back and forth with technical assistance, I eventually get a call from software development engineer for the Techline Connect software we use at the dealer. He said, sorry, it's a software anomaly. Ship the vehicle. We'll patch this in the next update.
My response, "... thanks..." lol
So, all that said, my experience tells me that the scantool interpreted the data incorrectly. But, for your scenario, it could be the vehicle saying incorrect things. Who knows until you know.
Dan, I love the way you explain everything step by step.
Once again the master at work. Patience and perseverance. Another great find Dan. Very bizarre. Theres nothing better than that buzz of finding a fault, especially when all else have failed. Great video. Bring on the next one!
Working on the next one😁
Great to see a real technician diagnosing the fault to component level rather than just changing bits to see if it fixes the issue. 👍🙂
Another excellent video Dan, you amaze me with your determination to get these faults sorted out, thank you once again for an interesting video.
Thank you David
Amazing diagnosis. So difficult to work thru those computer issues, especially with the possibility of wasting so much money! I remember a non-automotive computer issue with a German drive system in the plant where I worked - a series of drive motors up to 600 HP stretched polyester fibers. If a leading zero was used in one of the drive ratios (0.245 vs .245), the machine would run away and break the fibers. If the leading zero was omitted, it worked fine! ANYTHING is possible with computers and coding. And there are many things that CANNOTY be made right - we can only make them work. Takes away from the satisfaction of identifying a root cause, but we have to live with it.
Thanks for the comment 👍
Louis Rossmann will love locked down modules. They are great for the environment too.
Hi if I'm not mistaken the body control module is from a 2.4 I'm pretty sure it's used in a number of their vehicles for that year and either one year ahead or one behind and it works fine for both
I'm pretty sure (maybe don't tell the customer this ) there's nothing wrong with that climate control switch I believe the fault lay's with all those compressor replacement and such, if you would like I can look it up for you I'm retired now 36 years in the business but I have a lot of time on my hands
Yes!!!!!! Dan’s back!!
Talk about quality over quantity. You are the only one of two channels they i subscribe to that i don’t skip a second of the video 👍👍👍
Awesome diagnosis Dan, only thing I can say is that nearly every motoring journalist says that yes they are a dream to drive but be expected to spend a lot of money on repairs as they are not very well made, brilliant post
Thanks John👍
Thank you for renewing my hope in humanity by being that which makes people's lives better. You really make something complicated into something simple for us to understand.
Diagnose Dan, fixed it again!
I love the way you take nothing for granted, even the checking that your equipment is working during the diagnosis. Well done. Could you have wired that valve independently through a micro switch or something to save all that money? I realise that it's not a factory approved method. 😉
You could, but it wouldn't be a simple on/off type signal, you would need to use a microcontroller to provide the correct PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) signal.
If you look at the oscilloscope at around the 21 minute mark, that square waveform shows that the signal turns on and off many hundreds of times a second.
And how would you know the good pwm signal ,
Dan showed the compressor worked by applying voltage to the valve. But I guess temperature control wouldn’t work properly without the valve being controlled with the right signal.
Exactly
"Test the tester" (electricians' saying)
Good job Danny I am automotive engineer from Egypt and I benefit greatly from your work, keep going
Thanks for watching
Dan!! You are the beast of diagnostics.👍
Thanks!
I relate to your comment about thinking it will just be another broken wire, not interesting. One of my favorite parts of being a technician is when you get a reading you did NOT expect to see. Time to get your thinking cap on. Great video Dan!
Thanx Sam
Wow ! That's crazy! Seems to me it'd be a lucrative business to 'virginize' those things! They're expensive automobiles to be doing hipshot diagnosis with! ;) Great work Dan!
In my area, used parts are often used. Control units are constantly reprogrammed like new... This is a business for many.
A lot of junkyards have the capability to virginize modules because they are worthless i they dont
Proxy alignment works by transferring the configuration data stored in bcm to the corresponding modules, thats correct. Unfortunately the tool you are using won't allow you to see the exact data values and configurations. You need mes or any fiat group specialized diag tool to view qnd alter those configurations.
Then you would probably find the engine type in bcm is set to 2.4jtdm hence why each time you carry out proxy would show you 2.4 on ac module. This setting can be changed by the tool(such as mes). I do sometimes find wrong setting but i have always been able to reset them over and over, new or used parts. Sometimes if the part number is incorrect/incompatible it would reject the proxy alignment mileage will start or continue flashing. My guess is, as you mentioned missing hardware.
On another note, to program a used ac module as new might be tricky as we need to have a copy of the new data. Sometimes we can clone the original which is easier for us and better for who's installing, as proxy wont be necessary. But i guess no one knows where the original unit is since your customer bought the car with fault.
Goodjob on diagnosing the car properly.
The 2.4L/1.8L coding may only be one of the many coding parameters that are addressed during the proxy alignment. I can almost guarantee that there's a dedicated coding parameter for variable displacement compressors vs clutch only
Try a proxy alignment with the MultiEcu tool
Yes and it also save the number of ecus on the network loop/ can and do a handshake with the other. I remember playing with a fiat 500 that has a defective bcm. Tried putting a used one but until i did the proxy alignment all other modules was setting no comm faults with bcm. After proxy alignment no more communication fault. But still no start. After that realised the immo data was a one time thing .had to get it brand bcm from dodge and programmed it thru witech then redid proxyalignment and virginize and program keys with im508 to get car running
You are right Mario, there are many variables for this module / system.
Great to see you here!
@DiagnoseDan
Shows 2.4L Diesel since engine type is a "dont care" variable for the AC compressor. In the PROXI string there is a bit that calls out the AC type.
By default virgin modules have a blank PROXI string all "0"s. this is why it shows up as 1.8L Petrol when first connected
ie. 0 = No AC ; 1 = 1 Zone ; 2 = 2 Zone [This is just an example]
Thanks for watching
Perhaps someone changed the Body Control Module in the past to a used 2.4L Diesel one?
The body module was not changed
Hi Dan, thank you for the interresting video's. Now you can open up the new 1080,00 EURO control-unit and look for a EEPROM to readout or a uPC to readout the FLASH-memory and save the virgin dump in case you need it in the future. Then you'll always be able to virginize every simulair control-panel en recode it. Greetings from a electronic repairer :)
Thanks for sharing your time and knowledge Dan. Much appreciated. I'm starting to find more and more cars that come to my shop where fault codes have been written out of the ECU by some of these tuning shops, and engine operation is affected in someway and its almost impossible to diagnose. Lately what I do if I suspect that the ECU has been tampered with I re flash so that I know I have a good foundation to start from. Keep well and all the best.
If we suspect the vehicle software has been tuned, we won't accept the diagnostic job.
Not sure i heard you say, but its vital that you find the correct dude rating, and that you leave the earth wire with some slack. Generally if its got a heater you need 13A, for everything else its 3A - 3A is 750W 13A is 3000W. If you get the fuse rating too there is a real fire risk depending cable used. The earth needs to have slack to ensure its the last wire to get pulled out if cable is tugged out say as result of a trip
I'm a bit shocked you couldn't recode the AC panel. In my Fiat Stilo I can recode the AC panel settings as many time as I want. I can change for example the presence of air quality sensor, of PTC additional heater, of evaporator temp. sensor, of windshield fogging/freezing sensor (wonder how it works btw) and a bunch of other sensors. My Stilo is equiped with the PTC electric heater and if I choose it's not in the Proxi Alignment, the AC panel doesn't activate it's relays anymore. If you used the Examiner (Fiat/Lancia/Alfa main scantool) or the independent MES (MultiEcuScan) which is a laptop program, I bet you could just change a setting called "Electric pressure valve presence". And to be more doubtful about the scantool you used, there is no 2.4 JTD 16v engine, it doesn't exist. 2.4 JTD is a 5 cylinder motor, it can have either 10 valves or 20 valves. There was no 16 valve version.
Thanks for the comment its really appreciated
This is the right answer for me. With MultiEcuScan you can read and correct the BCM params and AC module params, either on the used part with the correct spare part number the customer brought to you.
I own the exact same model of 159 with 2.0l JTDm and have access to MultiEcuScan. If you're curious I can make you a video of the different settings that this tool can manage.
😂 this would have saved the customer a fortune
The world of Eeprom… anything could be done in minutes when you know the right path… which could take weeks to find
Italian electrical work has a reputation for a reason
Great diagnosis Dan, as always - but if t was my car, I would have just hotwired an extra switch to control that valve, and save me a lot of euros.
That would have meant the compressor running at maximum all the time the switch was on resulting in no temperature control and the problems that brings with it such as icing up and so on.
Its a PWM signal Will, you can't run that valve all the time on 12V its not designed for that. The coil will overheat
hi danny clive from london. good to be back on your programe lots more A/C stuff please
The first module that ends in '40' I don't think it's the wrong part. It might be the original module that the car came with. If you take a look on the label it dates from '06. The one the customer came with dates from '11. Also, it's labeled HW 5.0 vs HW 8.0 (same on the new module). Sometimes they change the design a little or add some features from a revision to another. It can happen for the manufacturers to use the same configuration for multiple engines even if there are small differences like in this case. So, the PWM signal might be found at the 2.4L engine, but not used. This could have been tested with the valve disconnected: if you would had an error code related to the valve this means the AC module does have a diagnosis procedure to check the valve circuit (nowadays we do diagnosis for each wire, I don't know how it was 15 years ago). The diagnosis procedure will not run for a 2.4L engine since there is no valve and won't flag anything. But still, I think they didn't even bother making a diagnosis procedure for the valve and used same configuration for both engines.
@diagnosedan love your videos! there must be done restore vehicle configuration procedure too at the tester.
Pretty sure it's the wrong one. The Alfa is 2010+. When I was looking for a 159, the 2.0 replaced the older 1.9 around 2010!
@@khalidacosta7133 Well, on this side you are right. It should have been the newer variant installed, but the older module is compatible with the new one (AC system is the same for 1.9 and 2.0). This seems to be a common failure that wasn't fixed in HW 8.0 and I'm afraid the costumer will experience the same problem after a few years.
It was really the wrong number.
Hello Dan, Nice video, I think that the used part that the customer brouht was also faulty with same problem, means no power control of the AC valve.
You could be right!
Dan...You are the man! You never cease to amaze me!
Remember when we were cocky as kids and mother said: "What do think, that everybody is stupid, just you are the smart one?!" Today the answer is YES. Trade schools teach absolutely nothing, mechanics that did their apprenticeship at a dealership, are just clueless part swappers. Guesswork is still valid, if you change the cheap parts first (AC pressure sensor most of the time). But the geniuses go right to the core and if it doesn't work :"It's the computer". The results are so FUBAR that it takes a saint like Dan to undo all the sins and fix the problem that the car had in the first place.
🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯
And you’ve met every dealer trained tech then have you? Clearly not as I know & have worked with many who do know what their doing & don’t play parts darts including myself. Your generalisation belittles you, there’s many vehicles I regularly look at that have come from independents who haven’t a clue what their doing, there’s good & bad techs in dealerships, independents & one man bands. Dan done a good job but any decent tech would know that the compressor would be controlled by a PWM signal & if not there checked at the ecu then checked inputs & codings before ordering a new part.
@@madds6678 In 15 years of working with cars, I can tell you that the statistics are really bad. Of course there are good mechanics, because I still work with them. Usually the good ones don’t have a formal education, never worked in a dealership, but mastered the craft over time because it was their passion. I respect Dan, because he has an ace in his sleeve: the scientific method. I am an electrical engineer and when I watch his work, it’s exactly how I would do it. The only difference is that I would never change anything related to emissions control - egr, dpf, adblue. I worked in the automotive R&D and I know that these are scams - planned obsolescence devices that are put in place so the car will break down. I cut them out, throw them in the trash and reprogram the ecu. This is a bad business model , because I rarely work on a car twice. Once all of that garbage is removed, it just works for the next 10+ years.
To stay on topic of the video: we should have a license system for such trades in Europe. So it can be removed on a third strike when cars are botched this bad. A simple AC repair shouldn’t turn into a nightmare of this magnitude. It has nothing to do with technology or complexity, just criminal incompetence. I can share 100ts of similar stories, because I am known to be the last resort and I have to lose my sanity on such clusterfucks very often.
Well I’m still working in in dealerships in my 36th year I’ve seen it all from good old mechanical technology that was repairable & could be fixed roadside with a simple toolkit through early electronics to the latest networking systems & now EV’s which I’m the specialist in. But I can categorically say in my experience the good ones did not come from those who had no formal education far from it but certainly they did have a passion for technology & problem solving you either have it or not. What I can say is there’s an awful lot of fitters in the trade & these are generally the ones with no formal education who unfortunately are given the unjustified title of technicians which they certainly are not.
The biggest problem is the business model dealerships run which have high overheads so require a lot of throughput to keep the lights on so most techs are just spanner monkeys & filter spinners which in the future they won’t be needing with virtually nothing to change on a EV. I can assure you the vast majority of good diagnostic technicians either get kicked out (wrongly) as they don’t sell enough hours ( as they have pride in their work) or leave under the constant pressure of hours & work for themselves or go onto something better I’ve seen this dozens of times, there are very few long time served diagnostic techs in dealerships. So please don’t knock all dealer techs & not to single you out your not the only person I’ve seen to do so on you tube I would also give Dan a ticking off too for including dealership in the title but forgetting the independent too.
Good luck in keeping your vehicles going it’s definitely harder to do so now with the complexity of modern vehicles.
@@madds6678 yes, I mostly agree with you. 5 dealerships closed shop in my city because they couldn’t survive the lockdowns. One company took over almost 10 brands, but don’t have 10 mechanics in total. I don’t want to be in those guys shoes because they have to bring in the salaries for the overstaffed management team. So they are encouraged to swap as many parts as possible. The poor souls that bring their cars there are skinned alive and very often they drive away with an empty wallet and a broken car. I admit I am biased because of how they look down on us independents, brainwashing people into thinking that only the official dealer has a magic wand to fix their car. While my primary tool is the angle grinder :)
My bachelor thesis was about EVs. I proved on paper that it works in times when nobody believed in them. Now because of the evil of the industry and politics, i see that EVs will bring a lot of sorrow to a lot of people.
In my opinion and experience Italian cars are fine as long as they are SMALL cars. The Panda and the 500 for instance are excellent workhorses and last many years. The problems grow as the cars grow and for me the larger cars MUST be German for quality and reliability. Thanks Dan another GREAT video!!!! Simon
It is your aftermarket scan tool. For the cars from Fiat group (Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Jeep, Suzuki...), as a diagnoze, it is advised to use Fiat multiecuscan or Cantiecar (the best). Btw, the 2.4 diesel engine is 20 valves, the 1.9 diesel is 16 valves, so your scantool couldn't figure it out correctly. Considering the car is from 2012, the original climate control module must have been replaced from the start with the wrong one (the one with MONO is the pre-facelift one, installed between 2005-2008. After 2008, it is the the one with OFF button and with the 2 little red and blu humans :-)
It sounds like you know quite a bit about Alfas!
@@Diagnosedan I own one, so I need to, since Alfas don't break, they stop to be admired (quite often!) 😂
Dan i came across your video because tge dealer is u able to diagnose and fix my wife's AC. You really know your stuff. I hope some of your videos can help me troubleshoot her problems in her 2011 Ford Fusion. Great job keep up the content.
Another great video Dan, thank you. I've been an a/c specialist for 18 years. I had a similar issue with a Honda where the control head had been exchanged with an incorrect one around 15 years ago and it took me hours to figure it out. I always ask now if anything has changed since it last worked, any work on the engine or even battery changes - all have caused malfunctions in the a/c. There's a tool available that produces a pwm signal that you can use to drive the control valve safely.
You are right i've got a PWM driver, i actually used it in the previous video. Supplying the valve with 12V for a short period is alright, but you are right i should have used a PWM driver
So brilliant! Great diagnosis.
You always do good work ,great job
Thank you
Absolutely brilliant Mate.
Proud of you Dan, excellent comprehensive troubleshooting. You earned a subscriber who is looking forward to more videos from you.
Thanks for Subscribing!