I've owned both a Steinway and Yamaha uprights. Like both for different reasons. Favorite piano I had the pleasure of playing was a Bosendorfer. Got goosebumps and chills while playing
I think you have to consider the piano's usage. Not all players are playing Classical music. The piano is the base instrument for arrangers, composers, and people use them in ensembles. Is it going to be used in a band with guitar, drums? A jazz ensemble? A chamber classical music ensemble? Are you practicing to have a technique like Art Tatum? Are you practicing to have a rhythmic style in Afro-Cuban music or salsa? Gospel or samba? Pianos are so versatile that one has to think of fitting them to the style or styles of music. For versatility, some brands work better. Which ones? Kids can start with digitals. It would be insane to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a quality piano that they lose interest in playing in under a year. If the kid seems to go for some of the other sounds on the digital, that's where their music instincts may lead them. If they are mostly using the piano sounds, then they could try several uprights and small grands and maybe earn their way to getting one. Are you resale minded? Investment minded? Or do you need a good-quality, reliable piano from a well-established maker that fits your budget? The upper tier stuff is fine for the most accomplished or discerning. Otherwise, it's overkill. And Robert or other vintage piano sellers end up getting one of those pianos to resale because it sat, virtually unplayed, in some wealthy person's home for sometimes decades.
Excellent information . . . educating the public, enlightens and brings understanding where there was once ignorance. Helpful to both the buyer and the seller.
Agreed. A fine grand can play 20 shades of pianissimo on the keys and the pedals operate like they are not even there. Sauter and Steinway for me. Maybe a Bluthner too.
You hit the nail on the head! The piano gives birth to all music. Learning to read and play music is a language that is priceless. And i don't know sheeit. I just know how to read it now because of a piano
Robert, you are a genuine guy. Thank you for your wonderful videos. I am a serious jazz/Minimalist pianist and never get into those triple fortes and massive bass sounds. I found an incredible upright piano called Wilhelm Schimmel, made by the Schimmel family but built in Poland, which makes it more affordable due to cheaper labor costs. To play music on the lighter side of Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett this piano has an incredible sweet and warm mid and upper range. I was looking for something like that for years. I've played on the more expensive Schimmel uprights and they don't have the same warmth. The lower range, of course, is not up to par with the mid and high. I find it to be a miracle achieved by Schimmel. $14000, new. It costs around 10 grand in Europe. Not for serious classical music. But for jazz/new age is remarkably sweet. Have you come across one of these? Cheers
The other day went by a piano store at 162 Boylston St in Boston having a store closing / moving sale (up to 70% off). You do come across a few Steinway pianos without paying a premium. Some piano stores do have periodic sales when you can get discounts. Not everybody can fit a grand piano in their home depending on the size of the living area. Reasons for buying a top-notch piano: 1. in anticipation that one of your kids would be playing at the level of a concert pianist. 2. Resale value (even when nobody at home plays music). Some people collect artwork for the same reason.
I have a Yamaha U1 too 🎹🎶😃 It's really bright in tone quality but I do love it when it has been tuned ... I don't feel that I can let go as much as I want to at a loud dynamic, yet to gain maximum sonic potential I would open the top up before each practise session ... I really would love the opportunity of owning a grand piano some day though ... 😄😄😄
well U yamaha pianos are great sounding, better than lot of grand pianos, but it's still using springs instead of gravity, that what uprights are, so if you want a good control and unevenness you'll need that grand piano.
It very much depends on your circumstances. I have three children learning to play. I've bought them a new Weber W121 upright (£3600). If any one of them looks like they're taking it very seriously then I'll consider buying a Weber W150 baby grand (£7000). If they need anything better then they'll need to pay for it themselves; I'm not spending £90,000 on a new Steinway!
great discussion. I absolutely love Charles Walter Grands on the American side of things, and probably my top pick overall among all 'tiers" are the Shigeru Kawai pianos ie sk7. Not a lot of 'reasoning' on my needed to understand their value and why they are such special instruments. I enjoyed your points and they are quite valid indeed. :-)
Well there is asian pianos and asian pianos, I'd take a yamaha C7 over any kind of steinway except the steinway D because the yamaha sounds beautiful in pianissimo playing and is really clear in the high notes. But i think you meant the cheaper asian pianos.
I'll take a medium-voiced C7X, and the SX-series sounds as good as any European or American piano, IMO. I don't know why Robert Estrin doesn't say Japanese, Korean or Chinese as there is a world of difference in the history of piano production of the three. But some Chinese pianos are truly great values now and really, will fit a lot of pianists quite fine. The C7 is the most popular piano used in recording studios. And it's not even in the highest-tier, yet it is used in many professional recording studios. It's a very fine piano.
Benjamin Smith I don't really doubt what you're saying but do you have a source about your comment on the C7? My only sources are "behind the scenes" DVDs and I probably see Steinways like 80% of the time, in pop music even.
@@Kougeru Yes, it's more of a thing that I've heard it declared than having found a source. And I wouldn't doubt that Steinways are used in most situations. Steinways are very versatile. I've actually seen Steinways used more for jazz than any other piano, including Yamaha.
The best piano experience I ever had was on a Steinway model C (which are only made in Hamburg) and it was a pleasure to play on. Sadly I don't have the funds for it. Though I'd love to compare with top Asian pianos like a Shigeru Kawai.
I high end piano is one of the few things (another being a house) that will increase in resale value over time. The ideal piano would be one that you could never overpower.
I would advise against buying cheap old awfully sounding pianos for kids even electronic pianos. When you start playing piano it’s like the first time making love 💕.... if your very first experience is terrible, well you know the rest. A kid must learn to love his instrument physically as much as musically. Playing musique in general is a complex experience where feelings are involved. It’s like writing... Playing Piano can sometime have your adrenaline spike or driving you down to deep melancholy. In my opinion you can buy extremely good used baby grand pianos for between $2200 and $5000 and you’ll resell it the exact same price if your kid drops. Don’t forget also that Upright pianos aren’t “real” pianos and if you want your kid to have the real experience a baby grand has no comparison.
I find it's all in the regulation, I'm presently regulating a Chickering concert grand from the 1920's and everything is there to make it sound as good as a Steinway or a Bosendorfer, you have to know how all the different regulatory settings work together. and make it happen, and yes, you need a good quality action that can take lots of punishment.
Folks spend as much , or more , on a vehicle that depreciates drastically in just a couple of years ... Where as in a piano keeper in food condition may even out live the owner 🙏🏽💥🙏🏽
Or maybe Price = (A+B/(production volume))*(quality) + C*(marketing costs) is a better model? Increasing marketing adds to the cost on one side, but allows more volume that brings down the cost on the other side.
Yamahas are some of the toughest pianos made. Kawais are too. They can take a lot of conservatory pounding, it's proven. I don't know what Asian make Robert had issues with, but maybe it's anecdotal what happened to his. In conservatories that I've been in and music schools, Steinways needed more repair more often than did Kawais or Yamahas. And, sorry, but Japanese products are higher quality than American products in many applications and have been for decades. Japanese quality in many products is outstanding. And Chinese shouldn't be knocked either. In this day and age, Brodmann, Feurich, Hailun's are made by Chinese but have several European parts in them. They are making solid pianos now. 15 years ago, not so much. Now is a different story.
Yamaha and Kawai are very well made pianos. They both make everything from promotional level pianos manufactured in Indonesia and China, up to hand-built pianos that cost as much as Steinway! So what piano is right for someone depends upon matching the piano to the capabilities of the player.
is fritz dopert a good brand of pianos? I have one and the sound dont variate so much between PP,P,F,FF. Is it me how dont know how to play or the piano tha is not so good?
Bruno, eu tenho um Fritz Dobbert também, e posso te afirmar que essa marca produz pianos de qualidade satisfatória. Nada além disso. É possível encontrar pianos de boa sonoridade e de péssima sonoridade produzidos por essa marca.
Tenho acompanhado com curiosidade a trajetória da Fritz Dobbert no Brasil. Embora eles não admitam, muitos pianos da marca têm sido importados da China, e apenas "montados" na fábrica em SP, que reduziu o nr. de funcionários nos últimos anos. A qualidade dos pianos mais antigos, produzidos no Brasil, é claramente superior à desses pianos vindos da China... Exatamente o que diz o Robert Estrin nesse video: pianos orientais, com exceção dos japoneses, ou seja, aqueles produzidos na China, Indonesia e Coreia, vão ficando cada vez piores com o tempo de uso...Um video interessante sobre o assunto: th-cam.com/video/bRhja_ANzBc/w-d-xo.html
I don't make enough money to buy a $50K piano but I wouldn't want to buy a cheap Chinese piano. I bought a good used instrument from my piano dealer....a cable nelson grand from the 1930s. Cost me $2500 and everyone who plays it loves it.
I’m an amateur piano player and i usually play by ear, i was owning very cheap digital Chinese piano and i lost it, i don’t have money to buy another, is there piano to donate? I live in Jordan.
BMW sold there 1600 LT for AU$26,000, when first offered for sale. It did not take BMW put the price to AU$34,000 and why? They wanted the price of this BM to be a “status symbol”. As for pianos, it is the same BUT .Richard says “Beginning students won’t have the energy to play that way?” Beginning students couldn’t afford the big Steinway. A serious person wanting to learn piano will by the piano they can afford. There are those who couldn’t tell the difference between a piano and a tin whistle but they have a big Steinway. The only function of that instrument is to keep the dust of the floor. Those are people who “have the gear but no idea”. I think this video is nothing more than a thinly veiled ad for expensive pianos. Shame on you Richard.
![แม่กลองสองใจ - ซีแกรม โตเกียว มิวสิค [ OFFICIAL MUSIC VIDEO ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GSQfVjcr_f4/mqdefault.jpg)
Mark Hamill knows a lot about pianos.....
I've owned both a Steinway and Yamaha uprights. Like both for different reasons. Favorite piano I had the pleasure of playing was a Bosendorfer. Got goosebumps and chills while playing
Robert Renk Same. I have played Steinways and Bösendorfers and I like the Bösendorfer sound better.
I think you have to consider the piano's usage. Not all players are playing Classical music. The piano is the base instrument for arrangers, composers, and people use them in ensembles. Is it going to be used in a band with guitar, drums? A jazz ensemble? A chamber classical music ensemble? Are you practicing to have a technique like Art Tatum? Are you practicing to have a rhythmic style in Afro-Cuban music or salsa? Gospel or samba? Pianos are so versatile that one has to think of fitting them to the style or styles of music. For versatility, some brands work better. Which ones?
Kids can start with digitals. It would be insane to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a quality piano that they lose interest in playing in under a year. If the kid seems to go for some of the other sounds on the digital, that's where their music instincts may lead them. If they are mostly using the piano sounds, then they could try several uprights and small grands and maybe earn their way to getting one.
Are you resale minded? Investment minded? Or do you need a good-quality, reliable piano from a well-established maker that fits your budget? The upper tier stuff is fine for the most accomplished or discerning. Otherwise, it's overkill. And Robert or other vintage piano sellers end up getting one of those pianos to resale because it sat, virtually unplayed, in some wealthy person's home for sometimes decades.
Robert, you are great man! thanks for the information.
Excellent information . . . educating the public, enlightens and brings understanding where there was once ignorance. Helpful to both the buyer and the seller.
Very instructive! I like these type of videos!
Agreed. A fine grand can play 20 shades of pianissimo on the keys and the pedals operate like they are not even there. Sauter and Steinway for me. Maybe a Bluthner too.
You hit the nail on the head! The piano gives birth to all music. Learning to read and play music is a language that is priceless. And i don't know sheeit. I just know how to read it now because of a piano
Robert, you are a genuine guy. Thank you for your wonderful videos. I am a serious jazz/Minimalist pianist and never get into those triple fortes and massive bass sounds. I found an incredible upright piano called Wilhelm Schimmel, made by the Schimmel family but built in Poland, which makes it more affordable due to cheaper labor costs. To play music on the lighter side of Bill Evans and Keith Jarrett this piano has an incredible sweet and warm mid and upper range. I was looking for something like that for years. I've played on the more expensive Schimmel uprights and they don't have the same warmth. The lower range, of course, is not up to par with the mid and high. I find it to be a miracle achieved by Schimmel. $14000, new. It costs around 10 grand in Europe. Not for serious classical music. But for jazz/new age is remarkably sweet. Have you come across one of these? Cheers
The other day went by a piano store at 162 Boylston St in Boston having a store closing / moving sale (up to 70% off). You do come across a few Steinway pianos without paying a premium. Some piano stores do have periodic sales when you can get discounts.
Not everybody can fit a grand piano in their home depending on the size of the living area.
Reasons for buying a top-notch piano:
1. in anticipation that one of your kids would be playing at the level of a concert pianist.
2. Resale value (even when nobody at home plays music). Some people collect artwork for the same reason.
I have an upright Yamaha U1 at home and I do feel what you describe in your vid: i can't play as quiet as i would like to...
I have a Yamaha U1 too 🎹🎶😃 It's really bright in tone quality but I do love it when it has been tuned ... I don't feel that I can let go as much as I want to at a loud dynamic, yet to gain maximum sonic potential I would open the top up before each practise session ... I really would love the opportunity of owning a grand piano some day though ... 😄😄😄
well U yamaha pianos are great sounding, better than lot of grand pianos, but it's still using springs instead of gravity, that what uprights are, so if you want a good control and unevenness you'll need that grand piano.
You need a well regulated grand to play really quiet and a Yamaha C or D class, well regulated will play whisper quiet, the key is proper regulation.
It very much depends on your circumstances. I have three children learning to play. I've bought them a new Weber W121 upright (£3600). If any one of them looks like they're taking it very seriously then I'll consider buying a Weber W150 baby grand (£7000). If they need anything better then they'll need to pay for it themselves; I'm not spending £90,000 on a new Steinway!
Great Video :), cant thank you enough for this one
great discussion. I absolutely love Charles Walter Grands on the American side of things, and probably my top pick overall among all 'tiers" are the Shigeru Kawai pianos ie sk7. Not a lot of 'reasoning' on my needed to understand their value and why they are such special instruments. I enjoyed your points and they are quite valid indeed. :-)
Danbo_de_Piano_Part_Deux ii
Well there is asian pianos and asian pianos, I'd take a yamaha C7 over any kind of steinway except the steinway D because the yamaha sounds beautiful in pianissimo playing and is really clear in the high notes.
But i think you meant the cheaper asian pianos.
I'll take a medium-voiced C7X, and the SX-series sounds as good as any European or American piano, IMO. I don't know why Robert Estrin doesn't say Japanese, Korean or Chinese as there is a world of difference in the history of piano production of the three. But some Chinese pianos are truly great values now and really, will fit a lot of pianists quite fine. The C7 is the most popular piano used in recording studios. And it's not even in the highest-tier, yet it is used in many professional recording studios. It's a very fine piano.
Benjamin Smith I don't really doubt what you're saying but do you have a source about your comment on the C7? My only sources are "behind the scenes" DVDs and I probably see Steinways like 80% of the time, in pop music even.
@@Kougeru Yes, it's more of a thing that I've heard it declared than having found a source. And I wouldn't doubt that Steinways are used in most situations. Steinways are very versatile. I've actually seen Steinways used more for jazz than any other piano, including Yamaha.
The best piano experience I ever had was on a Steinway model C (which are only made in Hamburg) and it was a pleasure to play on. Sadly I don't have the funds for it. Though I'd love to compare with top Asian pianos like a Shigeru Kawai.
How about comparing with Steinway B?? I think it's better to have Steinway B in terms of prices.
I high end piano is one of the few things (another being a house) that will increase in resale value over time. The ideal piano would be one that you could never overpower.
I would advise against buying cheap old awfully sounding pianos for kids even electronic pianos.
When you start playing piano it’s like the first time making love 💕....
if your very first experience is terrible, well you know the rest.
A kid must learn to love his instrument physically as much as musically.
Playing musique in general is a complex experience where feelings are involved.
It’s like writing... Playing Piano can sometime have your adrenaline spike or driving you down to deep melancholy.
In my opinion you can buy extremely good used baby grand pianos for between $2200 and $5000 and you’ll resell it the exact same price if your kid drops.
Don’t forget also that Upright pianos aren’t “real” pianos and if you want your kid to have the real experience a baby grand has no comparison.
I find it's all in the regulation, I'm presently regulating a Chickering concert grand from the 1920's and everything is there to make it sound as good as a Steinway or a Bosendorfer, you have to know how all the different regulatory settings work together. and make it happen, and yes, you need a good quality action that can take lots of punishment.
And this is why I love my N1... :P
I own a kawai and i lost interest in continuing lessons in a year but still find myself playing songs
My mom and I have a Baldwin upright studio grand piano and we love it. I’ve only had to tune it once and it still sounds good yrs later.
Cuckoo
What is your opinion of kohler & Campbell grands made in the early 2000's?
restored steinway b/bechstein or new bechstein for the same price of restored steinway?
what shuld i do? restored do not lose value also
Once a piano is kept in tune and in a good climate it will serve way better than a very high end stereo system ...
100% AGREED!!
Excellent video. An quality piano is an good investment. They are easier to play and sound better than cheap pianos.
Til: piano sales is similar to car sales
Not really. Fine German cars depreciate really quickly.
my fammily have ibach upright for 40 years... yes he is out of tune but after 30 yeas he is without restauration but sounds as little concert grand.
Folks spend as much , or more , on a vehicle that depreciates drastically in just a couple of years ... Where as in a piano keeper in food condition may even out live the owner 🙏🏽💥🙏🏽
Quality goes with the price.
Or maybe Price = (A+B/(production volume))*(quality) + C*(marketing costs) is a better model? Increasing marketing adds to the cost on one side, but allows more volume that brings down the cost on the other side.
When you say asian-made, I hope you mean chinese. CSU uses Yamaha concert grands and they are magnificent and I have a 6 foot Kawai and I love it.
Yamahas are some of the toughest pianos made. Kawais are too. They can take a lot of conservatory pounding, it's proven. I don't know what Asian make Robert had issues with, but maybe it's anecdotal what happened to his. In conservatories that I've been in and music schools, Steinways needed more repair more often than did Kawais or Yamahas. And, sorry, but Japanese products are higher quality than American products in many applications and have been for decades. Japanese quality in many products is outstanding.
And Chinese shouldn't be knocked either. In this day and age, Brodmann, Feurich, Hailun's are made by Chinese but have several European parts in them. They are making solid pianos now. 15 years ago, not so much. Now is a different story.
Ben: Who the heck are you? You are one smart dude!! Absolutely correct on all points.
Love Kawai sound made in Asia and excellent quality, actually just got a new one :)
Kawai Disciples
again it's priceless controlling that note. musician or not...
Im no piano expert but I think Yamahas and Kawai pianos hold up for classical pianists to practice and bang away all day long.
Indeed. Kawai Nation
Yamaha and Kawai are very well made pianos. They both make everything from promotional level pianos manufactured in Indonesia and China, up to hand-built pianos that cost as much as Steinway! So what piano is right for someone depends upon matching the piano to the capabilities of the player.
Mason and Hamlin
is fritz dopert a good brand of pianos? I have one and the sound dont variate so much between PP,P,F,FF. Is it me how dont know how to play or the piano tha is not so good?
Bruno, eu tenho um Fritz Dobbert também, e posso te afirmar que essa marca produz pianos de qualidade satisfatória. Nada além disso. É possível encontrar pianos de boa sonoridade e de péssima sonoridade produzidos por essa marca.
Tenho acompanhado com curiosidade a trajetória da Fritz Dobbert no Brasil. Embora eles não admitam, muitos pianos da marca têm sido importados da China, e apenas "montados" na fábrica em SP, que reduziu o nr. de funcionários nos últimos anos. A qualidade dos pianos mais antigos, produzidos no Brasil, é claramente superior à desses pianos vindos da China... Exatamente o que diz o Robert Estrin nesse video: pianos orientais, com exceção dos japoneses, ou seja, aqueles produzidos na China, Indonesia e Coreia, vão ficando cada vez piores com o tempo de uso...Um video interessante sobre o assunto: th-cam.com/video/bRhja_ANzBc/w-d-xo.html
Hahahahahaha, if you can buy it for me...
To make you rich.
shegeru kawai?
I don't make enough money to buy a $50K piano but I wouldn't want to buy a cheap Chinese piano. I bought a good used instrument from my piano dealer....a cable nelson grand from the 1930s. Cost me $2500 and everyone who plays it loves it.
I’m an amateur piano player and i usually play by ear, i was owning very cheap digital Chinese piano and i lost it, i don’t have money to buy another, is there piano to donate? I live in Jordan.
Fazioli FTW!
I like to call a cheap, tinny sounding piano a "tigerskinachord".
BMW sold there 1600 LT for AU$26,000, when first offered for sale. It did not take BMW put the price to AU$34,000 and why? They wanted the price of this BM to be a “status symbol”.
As for pianos, it is the same BUT .Richard says “Beginning students won’t have the energy to play that way?” Beginning students couldn’t afford the big Steinway. A serious person wanting to learn piano will by the piano they can afford. There are those who couldn’t tell the difference between a piano and a tin whistle but they have a big Steinway. The only function of that instrument is to keep the dust of the floor. Those are people who “have the gear but no idea”.
I think this video is nothing more than a thinly veiled ad for expensive pianos.
Shame on you Richard.
Am I the only 10 year old kid who loves classical and hates new except river flows in you that’s pretty good
you have found your people
Contemporary digital pianos blow all the sub-80k grand pianos out of the water.
No mate not even close.
And you don't have to take my word for it - look at some of the head to head comparisons by "pianoforever" channel.
No way electronic speakers can compete with an acoustic piano soundboard, in volume yes but not sound quality.
You’ve completely lost your marbles 🤡
I tried a Roland GP609 and a Yamaha C3X. The C3X still blows the GP609 out of the water🎹🎶
1st
This guy appears to be the sort of man who prefers the company of another man.
What the hell does that have to do with pianos? Who cares and grow up.
20alphabet, your comment says more about the type of person you are than it does about anyone else.