Nappa is just bald Dizzy. It's okay. And +R Dizzy is probably the most fleshed out "programmer" in a fighting game, with her Fish allowing her to chain attacks like Dragon Knight, but with more options. Shadow Labrys also gets a programming function with her Titanomachia super, which lets her program 3 of her regular puppet attacks into a combo that is then followed up by a unique attack.
There actually is a programming character in Arcana Heart called Lieselotte. She can place up to 5 marks around the screen corresponding to 4 different types if attacks, and when she deploys her puppet, the puppet will travel to the marks in the order they were placed and perform the attack designated by the mark. without marks Lieselotte functions as a traditional puppet/stance hybrid character Honestly if you're looking for strange outlandish fighting game character archetypes, Arcana Heart is full of them
One thing I'm happy to see in more "modern" puppet fighting game characters: They stopped giving the puppets overheads and lows. Puppet characters have been, for the longest time, the source of some of the nastiest unblockable setups, having their puppet do a low that lands on the same frame the puppeteer lands an overhead. Hell, +R Zato could *loop* the unblockable, meaning the only thing between him and the instant win was burst and his ability to execute the setup consistently.
Just for some extra jojos info, it is possible to cancel your tandem (stand rush) while your stand is out so you’re not left completely helpless, specials and supers can also be inputted into tandem tandem also has the utility of a very good amount of s from frame 1 so it’s not just a combo tool 🦤 Nice video dog
Someone who I feel like doesn’t get recognition as a landlord is actually Gargos from KI who is overall stronger as a character but has to spend meter to summon one goon and has a max of two
Gargos is such a bastard. Especially with stone flesh and both Jerry and Larry out there to cockblock any whiff punishes you otherwise would catch him on
There's also Rosalina & Luma from Smash4 and SmashU. -- They're kinda like the Desync example where they generally do the same thing at once but if one of them gets interrupted through animation locks, then the other one can keep going... For example all of Rosa's normals can be cancelled into a jump on startup, but Luma's can't, so you can frequently see Luma throw out an attack while Rosa instead jumps or wavedashes... etc. -- But also like the Commander example where they do indeed have two different movesets with different properties to their attacks, and can control space from long range instead of having to keep the characters close by...
Some great examples you may have missed: Commander: Persona 4 Arena essentially universalized this style of character, up to and including the ability to be separated from the puppet by 'displacement' (i.e. the Persona isn't locked to the position of the character, and will stay where it is after using moves, even if your main character moves away from it, and this can cause future moves with the Persona to activate from its current position rather than where it would usually spawn). EDIT: Also Shadow Labrys is a great example of a 'programmer' move - she has a super where she commands several consecutive attacks from her summon, which will then be performed all in a row after a delay. Landlord: Gargos from Killer Instinct is basically the only other landlord character up until, as you mentioned, Black Dahlia released. However, he IS worth mentioning because he shares a lot of DNA with Jack-O. Controller: Afi and Galu from Rushdown Revolt are a platform fighter example of the controller style - they have a special move that turns one into a statue and switches control to the other, and are essentially a stance character with slightly different movesets and the ability to 'leave' the other character in a position for later, however they also have moves that interact with the other dormant character (such as a dash that always travels towards the other character, etc). Desync: a significantly pared-down version of this style of input exists in Marvel Vs Capcom Infinite and Power Rangers Battle for the Grid. For those games' non-character mechanic of (Reality) Infinity Storm and Megazord respectively, there are situations where the player commands 'the screen' to perform special actions from above based on which button is pressed, and if I recall correctly this can happen as long as that 'external' attack is off cooldown, even during the actual controlled character's recovery animations. So based on your timing, you could use one move while the 'game puppet' 's attack is on cooldown, and then use your PREFERRED puppet attack with a different button during the recovery of your character's move if the puppet attack comes off cooldown with the right timing.
another "landlord" puppet is surprisingly neco arc from melty blood type lumina she can summon a shit load of minions (with added RNG) and her minions can all be destroyed
Zato was the first character i ever main on a fighting game i took seriously. The challenge of learning negative edge while also learning basic fighting game concepts was an interesting experience. Because of this my control scheme is all kinds of ways of fucked up, using the triggers and bumpers so i can negative edge every single button no matter what instead of the tradicional face buttons. This is now my standard for 4 button fighting games and it always gets a funny response from my friends when they realize i play fighting with such a wack control scheme
11:28 Correction* This combo is not banned at all! The technique that is banned (Wobbling) is a simple infinite that just requires pressing a in a rhythm. I think your confusion came as that is a clip OF wobbles the ice climbers player named after said technique.
So for the melee clip what you showed is allowed to be executed . Wobbling is getting a grab and repeating pummel + down tilt or forward tilt with the puppet. This can be done forever and was a center point of their punish before it was bannded. What was in the video with the text was the player wobbles, being the player the term if coined after, pulling off sick legal desync combos. Sorry if i just misunderstood what the intent was!
Personally, Zato has always been the “puppet character” for me, the amount of control that you have over Eddie is so open that it would not surprise me if Eddie is programmed to act like a regular character!
@@gavinator70 that wouldn’t surprise me at all, but I was thinking more “what does his brain look like?” Also “is he as squishy as he looks? Or is he just a complete liquid?”
Its so funny that you used a compilation about Wobbles (the player) instead of Wobbling (the technique). Smash Ultimate Ice Climbers desyncs are crazy to watch. Ult also has another puppet character, with Rosalina and Luma.
Shadow Labrys in P4AU is my favorite fighting game character of all time. Fully blown duo character with no drawbacks other than you can hit the persona and it only can get hit 6 times before needing to regenerate. They also have a programming super, similar to heritage of the future, which is known as the best super in the game since it makes the persona invincible
Are there any cool characters I didnt talk about in the video? Feel free to share your favorite puppet characters/multi unit characters here in the comments!
Nappa from dbfz is mitterally the programmer character you talked about with his saibaimen, only problem is this is dbfz and the game is too offensive for this to be used too effectively
Loved all of these, could be worth doing a mini collab with Sajam about Gargos from KI? He's similar to Xrd Jack-0 afaik, but his gameplan mirrors a lot of older iterations of Zato focusing on screen control and runaway gameplan via weird air movement.
Three examples of puppet characters I figured were worth mentioning that aren't in this video... 1. Shadow Labrys from Persona 4 Arena (Ultimax) is a pretty standard Puppeteer type character, where she weaves commands for her always active Persona, Asterius, in the middle of her combos. However, if you use one of her super moves, Titanomachia, she briefly becomes a Programmer, as she gives commands to Asterius the same way a JoJo HftF character does during Stand Rush, which they will execute in order, then cap off with a screen wide wave of darkness that launches the enemy skyward. 2. Kankuro from Naruto Clash of Ninja 2 onwards is also a notable Puppeteer that literally uses a puppet, and might be the first examples of a puppet character I've ever used in a fighting game, even if he's sort of watered down. In most of the games he's in, your B button has Kankuro himself attack while your A button has his puppet, Crow/Karasu, attack. In the Shippuden games, however, he also gets Salamander/Kuroari as a second puppet, and the C button, normally the throw button, commands them. Combo routes are more rigid in that game, but they are really wild when it comes to area control, especially since his primary projectiles are mostly AoE poison smoke bombs instead of kunai that can only hit directly. 3. Also from Naruto Clash of Ninja (but exclusive to Clash Revolution 3) is Chiyo, who is *almost entirely* reliant on her Mother and Father puppets to attack for her. B controls her Mother puppet, which is mostly used for quick, close range melee. A controls her Father puppet, which has slower, longer ranged attacks. C button has a throw, but she can also use it to deploy a special shield that I believe prevents her from taking chip damage. The big weird thing with her is that her puppets are totally stationary, only moving when using attacks. If you use one of her dash attacks, she will swap places with the puppet whose button you hit and make them do a spinning attack where they warp to, and if you use her aerial attacks, the button she hits will send the corresponding puppet spiraling towards the enemy. Her super moves, meanwhile, originate from Chiyo herself. She is one of the most difficult characters in the game to play, but her pressure can be outright oppressive and totally safe since she can command her puppets from across the map, but if the enemy uses a Substitution Jutsu or some other teleport to get to her when her puppets are away, she is in TROUBLE.
Gargos is another good example from Killer Instinct! I like the versatility his two minions provide, even having their own metered options as well as being able to eat them if I recall. Super sick character.
This was a very well produced and well written video! I thoroughly enjoyed watching it until the end. It was a very fun watch I do have a little note as a melee fan. At 11:31 you say that the technique is banned now, but the technique being shown on screen are handoffs and not wobbling like you were searching for. Wobbles is a player that popularized wobbling in tournament, hence the name This was absolutely just something I saw and got fixated on at 2 AM lol. I absolutely loved the video
I was just about to comment something exactly like this but knew some other nerdy gamer like me would’ve already done it. Great video and keep up the good work.
There actually is another duo character I'd say falls under Controller, but also are kind of their whole own thing, which is Afi & Galu from Rushdown Revolt. They're obviously inspired by the Ice Climbers, seeing how RR is a platform fighter, but their movesets are slighly different from each other, kinda like Pyra & Mythra in Smash Ultimate (Different launch angles, single hit vs multihit, etc.). Thing is, only one of them are controllable at a time. Meanwhile the other one acts like a Strive Jack-O minion, and can be thrown around using a unique special (If I recall, one of them throws vertically, and the other horizontally), and of course another unique special to swap control between characters at any point, with only the stipulation that you need to make contact betweem the two before using the swap again. I believe their damage is handled the same way the Ice Climbers are, so their big weakness is that when you're on the back foot you have to kinda babysit the one whos not being controlled at the moment, using the unique throw to jump off-stage to save it from helplessly falling into the blastzone, or swapping control to make a recovery, etc. I might be wrong about some of this stuff, but their basic mechanic is still very much like what you said: a Controller. They're super cool. I wish anyone played that game lol
Carl was the first character that motivated me to pick up puppet types. I thought the mechanized war doll Fighting by his side was super bad ass so I decided to try my hand at the character which ultimately was about a year worth of struggling before I got any semblance of being good but once I got it down I have never played another character more fun, more unique, and with more options available to them. He is literally the golden standard for puppet characters for me. I feel like the main reason for this is because of how much control you have over Nirvana. She doesn't disappear after a set time and she stays on the screen wherever you leave her allowing for so many different ways of combo expression.
Honestly I think this is why I really enjoy most puppet characters but can't get behind Zato/Eddie. The persistence really opens the door to cool things. Positioning is a layer of micromanagement I find enjoyable and dynamic, where working around the cycling nature of a meter or time limit isn't as much to my tastes.
Ed, if you want to look at Programmers, look into old iterations of Blazblue and Litchi Faye Ling's "The Great Wheel" super. It's similar to a Secret Garden, she poses while you program 5 or 6 direction plus D button inputs (number depends on game), after which her bo staff grows in size and stabs across the screen in the programmed directions while she mixes the shit out of you. It was so powerful that it was removed and modified into her Overdrive in CP and CF, where it still is incredibly powerful, but gated by the OD time limit, and the OD system generally not being a tool used for pressure. Also there was no meter penalty, which made it even crazier; she'd mix you, build bar, and do it all over again.
11:29 the technique being shown here isn’t wobbling, it’s just some crazy regrabs in a combo with other desync shenanigans thrown in, the reason for the title of the video is “10 Insane Wobbles Plays” because it’s a montage of the specific player in the clips, “Wobbles” who is the namesake for wobbling, as he popularized the technique. Very easy mistake to make, awesome video btw!
One really cool thing UNI Chaos has with his puppet is the fact that he can freely chain it into his other buttons and back, as if its attacks were simply normals (e.g 5C > 236A > 5A gatlings naturally even though 236A is a special). While not really related to his puppeteer-ness, it really gives him a cool connection to his doggy since he has a direct ways to act when Ahzi's attacks connect with the opponent, making you go back and forth between the two in pressure and combos
Even in a game of puppet characters, S.Labrys is the puppet character of puppet characters in that game. Or at the least, she's leans pretty heavily into being a programmer with her Titanomachia super. I would love to see more characters of that particular type. It's just really interesting.
I really likes Zato's design. The actual inputs for each move are very simple, and negative edge is a clever and efficient way to control eddy without taking buttons away from Zato himself. I like that his execution isn't pointlessly difficult; the difficulty of playing his character is just a natural result of the character's mechanical depth. Very interesting character.
Not an official character but an Idea I have for a puppet character is a character with an electronic android/robot, the robot has a secondary health bar/battery life that drains when it does mostly anything. So you, the puppet master have two options, you have to either hit it with batteries from any range that grants a massive singular increase of battery life. Or from a limited range you can attach a cord to it, tethered to you negating the battery life loss but limiting you and the puppet's movement and range.
Other notable puppet users: Alice Margatroid (Touhou Project) - A literal puppet user. She’s able to set down multiple puppets for a variety of uses, I.e. Shooting a laser, walking into the opponent and exploding, spinning around with blades, etc. The puppets can be hit and defeated while attacking. She is able to set down 3-5 puppets (if you level up her puppet placement skill) and remotely activate them at any time. After being placed down, the puppets can not be hit by the opponent. Rosalina and Luma (SSBU) - Rosalina has a little buddy that will follow her around and head its own moves set. The Luma can be defeated/knocked out of the area, causing Rosalina to lose some of her versatility (and one of her moves). Luma has no landing lag on their moves, so you have better combo routes. Luma will automatically respond within a few seconds. Keiko (Pocket Rumble) - This character is the only puppet character in Pocket Rumble. She is assisted by her lovecraftian cat. She is the only character who cannot dash. Dashing will only move her cat. Her cat has a variety of moves that will hit hard and cover a wide area. However, that cat can be defeated if hit enough times, and will remain defeated for the rest of the stock.
11:30 Someone correct me if I’m wrong on this, but this wasn’t wobbling (the technique that I’m assuming is being referenced as banned). Wobbling is characteristic of that infinite pummeling into a smash attack kill where this clip was more about desynced throw combos which are legal. Good video, but I did want to clarify that desyncing with throws and desyncing in general aren’t banned altogether.
It wasn't fully wobbling but if you look closer they do wobble a *tiny* bit during the combo, which thus would make it unusable in some tournaments. The official statement on wobbling, though, does say that about 8 seperate attacks are allowed during it so in most regards it would be legal, but still wobbling.
At 11:30 not sure if you're saying desyncing is banned? Only wobbling is banned(grabbing someone and pummeling infinitely). Pretty sure handoffs are still fine with ICs.
I do not consider Xrd Jack-O or Black Dahlia to be puppet characters. Thats like calling Faust a puppet character whenever he throws a minifaust. Its more like setplay than puppeteering.
Others have mentioned it here but I wanted to say that in Smash desyncing is not banned, only wobbling is, a specific desync technique that gets a kill from any percent off a single grab.
I know they're not traditional fighting games and it's a year after, but the Naruto: Ultimate Ninja Storm series has some seriously interesting puppet characters. Unlike other puppet characters, the ones in Storm are completely defenceless, to the point where even the puppet guards instead of the puppeteer. Playing them is like having one character who takes damage and one who deals damage (cause IIRC the puppets are invincible)
Shadow Labrys in Persona 4 Arena has a program super called Titanomachia that functions exactly as described - during superflash, input up to three of any of the puppet, "Asterius's" normal attack commands, and Asterius will do them in order, some with enhanced properties (and then end with a full screen finisher). It's one of, if not the strongest supers in the game because of how flexible it is for mixup, damage, or even defense, as Asterius can't be interrupted during Titanomachia except by actually putting Shadow Labrys in hitstun. Aside from Titanomachia though, Shadow Labrys and Asterius function like the traditional Puppeteer style, but without negative edge: the game's normal persona dedicated buttons, C and D, issue commands to Asterius while all of Shadow Labrys's own attacks and specials are on the A and B character attack buttons, and aside from supers, none of Asterius's attacks require or induce an animation lock from Shadow Labrys herself. Though it may be worth mentioning that unlike Eddie or ̶M̶i̶n̶e̶r̶v̶a̶ Nirvana, Shadow Labrys isn't able to move and position Asterius around the screen without attacking.
Carl doesn't ditch negative edge just instead of every button having negative edge he has negative edge inputs instead of just button release he also have to do stuff like negative edge half circle D or DP input negative edge but upside is all of the negative edge inputs are on his D button
I'd love to shout out the Maids and Mario Gallo Bestino from Melty Blood who I believe fall under the "commander" type of puppet character. French Bread seems to like those. As well as not just everyone in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax but specifically Ken and Koromaru who function with their personas and Koromaru as a puppet as well. Super interesting to me.
As a career puppet player im impressed you made this, a lot of outsiders to the archetype will recommend I pick characters like Chaos in Uni, but fail to understand its that simultaneous and complete control that drew me to Eddie and Carl.
Your timing on this ended up being relatively relevant, with two of the bigger fg releases having relevant applications of this (nier ofc, and also Mk1 Geras has like a super or smth where he makes a preprogrammed sand clone) interesting stuff!
one of the best iterations of a commander comes from Them’s Fighting Herds in Pom, who iirc was a serious powerhouse at one point ironically considering her meek nature character wise.
While I'm personally not a fan of GG Strive all too much, I really do love Jack-O there and how they changed her there. Being able to kick thr minions around and they have hitboxes and make them attack is really cool! I may give her another shot but I'm not sure. I'll definitely play her though in GG Rev 2 as that game i find that more interesting and entertaining than Strive personally.
I think a Programmable Puppet Fighter would be really cool. Imagine a character flavored around being in a time-loop where they can do some input, and it records every input sequence your character did in the last 2 seconds. Then if you do a Light, Medium or Heavy version of your special REWIND button, you can create a puppet that does that exact sequence of actions. Did you jump, then punch? congrats, it does that too. With L/M/H deterkmining how far away the Rewind clone will appear AND how long it appears for. With Light being right in front of you, and only does it once. the Interesting thing, is that this isn't just copying the actual animations, but the inputs themselves. For instance, if you do a grab input, but are super far away, you won't do a grab at all and just stand there, BUT you can then launch the Rewind clone and it'll proceed to try and do a Grab IF the opponent gets within range. ALSO, the rewind is directionally sensitive, just like you are. If you Press Back to block, only for the opponent to jump over the rewind, it'll now be pressing foreward instead of block, and do either walk foreward, or a foreward attack. Similar kinda to how in Guilty Gear Strive you can turn a Perfection Protection into a universal overhead. ALSO, the rewind is a physical version of yourself. So it can be hit and it can block as well. So if you store a sequence of blocks made in a row, then your opponent rushes you, you can do a Light Rewind and launch a Rewind of yourself in between the two of you, doing those blocks. The downside is as i mentioned, it can also be hit. So your opponent can Dragonpunch the Rewind mid attack. This will destroy the rewind immediately, you're opponent cannot just juggle you in the past. but you will take damage from that dragonpunch and take any hit-stun or launches if they happen. So you can't just launch the Rewinds blindly. They do benefit though that they won't take block-stun and have armor on all attacks. so even if they do Dragonpunch, their attack lands as well. Also, the direction the Rewind is launched in in directly in relation to where you are mid position. So you can do some standard crouch-jabs to do some footsies with your opponent, then jump and launch the Rewind in the air. Because you literally can't crouch mid-air, these inputs are instead turned into air-attacks.
This seems like a great addition to the concept of Abbacchio from JoJo being added to a fighting game with Moody Blues acting like a rewind for himself, like his ability in the manga and anime
@@callumbreton8930 This is why I'd love to see an arcsys Jojo fighter where each character is as unique in how they control and break the game's rules more as they are in Blazblue for instance. In the existing Jojo fighters their unique reality bending abilities are usually confined to theatrical flourishes for supers or installs rather than actually representing what the abilities do. I'd love to see talented FG devs get super creative with representing the stands in really interesting ways that have more strategic uses than raw power.
Shadow Labrys from Persona 4: Arena is one of two "puppet" characters in a game where every character's a puppet character! She leans on the "Programmer" archetype that you mentioned, and I was honestly surprised she didn't get a mention! Her Persona, Asterius, is unique in the fact that it's constantly providing pressure on the field, and activates through specials, like a Commander's puppet. However, during her Awakening Super, Titanomachia, S. Labrys can effectively Stand Rush, though his attacks are much slower and weightier, causing a lot of chaos and screen shaking that lets her toss out mixup after mixup until the super ends with a screen-wide explosion! The other Puppet from the same game is Ken, who's unique in the fact that he has TWO puppets. The first is his Persona, which functions like any other Persona, coming out as a proxy for his Specials, and allowing him to continue safe blockstrings alongside his second puppet: a dog named Koromaru. Koro has his own buttons that cause him to perform wide, sweeping attacks, similar to Chaos from Under Night. Koromaru even has his own super! Though, it still costs Ken's meter.
Another Programmer example I can think of is Dizzy's "Fish" special, which lets her input two commands to the fish upon summoning it and inputting the move
Touhou Hisoutensoku has an example of a character, Alice Margatroid, who seems like she should be puppet character but she just isn't. Alice's lore is that she's a literal puppeteer who commands dozens if not hundreds of dolls, and while she can set up many of these dolls in-game, the dolls function as setplay tools akin to Mu-12's steins or Under-Night Seth's orbs than they do true puppets like any of the examples in your video.
She does have a super (I forgot the name) that let's her control a single doll for a certain amount of time, so that kinda puts her in the "Controller" type even though it doesn't completely define her as a character.
My absolute favourite is still Jack O. TL;DR: Her design allows the player to switch between several archetypes and it add depth to her gameplay, making her unique at specific things characters in those same archetypes and sometimes stronger, can't do. I love it. ------ In Strive: You can play as rushdown/zoner/setup character whenever your MU allows or if you simply want to use a certain strategy a particular way. It adds depth to her design and use making her a treat to practice as you constantly figure out new minion configurations and setups, she also has the added bonus to cover certain aspects of her game she lacks against strong characters, for example, her Shield command allows her to potentially stifle strong offense from the likes of Chipp or Nago, letting you take a turn. In Xrd: It feels exactly like you're controlling an orchestra and playing against your opponent while attempting to craft a symphony that will soon lead to her demise, you can also somewhat move between character archetypes, just in this instance, you're playing more of very active mini 4X game and sometimes RTS than that of a zoner (though i would argue you can Zone with her here as well), until you level up your houses and play the ultimate game of rushdown ever. I main her in both games andt it has been an amazing ride thus far.
Happy Chaos is a kind of weird puppet character in my eyes, having his "puppet" out locks him out of blocking and allows him to hit the opponent whenever the reticle is focused on them while expending meters he also uses for zoning, allowing him a similar style of lockdown to Zato where the gun covers for him after unsafe or - moves and covering places on screen he is not while he goes about his day.
Yomi Hustle's Wizard has some commander aspects in his orb super, where he summons a floating orb. YOMI Hustle's control scheme isn't limited by button presses or even time, so moving the orb around is pretty straightforward. Each frame, just pick the direction you want it to fly while also having Wizard do whatever move you want. You ARE required to have Wizard do his own attacks in order to have the orb attack, as with a character like Chaos, but that can lead to some incredible combos with just a few attack inputs. Ninja's summon is a tiny bit like a puppet. I'd say not really, since it only appears and does one of a few attacks, except you can use displacement to switch places with it or attach a grappling hook to it and pull yourself toward it. It would be really interesting seeing YOMI Hustle add a character that really leans into the puppet master archetype, though it would be hard to balance considering the game's turn-based nature.
Lmao if you think about it duck hunt in smash is the ultimate puppet character. The can is a puppet, once you send it you can control it whenever. The clay frisbee is a controller, for block strings and combos if you have the foresight. And the gunman is the programmer, it can confirm into grabs or safe aerials or stop / start combos if you anticipate what the opponent will do.
How would you classify Captain Ginyu in Fighterz? He has 4 minions he can summon in a specific order, each with 3 possible actions they can do depending on how Ginyu summons them. After they're summoned they act independently, and even stay on screen if Ginyu is hit, allowing him to break out of combos.
I’d love to see a type of video like this for rushdowns, some characters are Arizona Tianhou from tfh(a ground and Aerial rushdown respectively) Or even charge characters, like Umbrella(a charge grappler) Paprika( a rush down grappler)
Another character that also falls into the Controller category is Afi & Galu from Rushdown Revolt. To my knowledge it's the only controller type character in a platform fighter, and would be cool to see implemented more for stylish movement and combo options.
My favorite puppet character has gotta be Olimar. There’s no stronger definition of chaotic without RNG. There’s a ton of strategy to be found in managing your Pikmin rotation while and through your fighting.
I don't play fighters personally- I'm bad under competitive pressures, clumsy with my inputs, and terrible at learning under the harsh conditions you're expected to survive learning fighting games. However, I thought I'd chip in with the character I think of when I hear about "puppet characters". Pom from Them's Fightin' Herds. She's a pretty standard Commander character whose commands are all handled through the special input button. She calls in her puppies to bite, scratch, dig, etc and help her extend blockstrings and create crossups. She can have a certain "point value" of dogs on screen at once, and with careful positioning can make some very powerful setups. Her Level 2 super lets her bring in the Dad dog as a puppet, who fills the gap in her big 3-point Mom dog puppet's moves. Good Pom players are super interesting to watch- since the games are so fast it's interesting seeing them find time to set up her puppets and create those oppressive situations. Figured I'd bring her up since nobody else in the comments seems to have yet.
another really interesting "Landlord" pupper character is surprisingly neco arc from melty blood lumina she kinda fits the criteria, being able to summon a shit ton of minions that flood the entire screen (with the added rng hell) and most minions can be destroyed easily as well
I'm surprised Persona arena wasn't mentioned because essentially the entire cast is a bunch of puppet users. In terms of programmers Litchi using Daisharin in BlazBlue is a great example. To the point where it was originally so good that they had to rework it entirely in future versions of the game. Also if were talking about streamlined versions of what the ice climbers do, Rosalina and Luma in the two recent smash games do that very well. The archetype is very wide and has a lot of room to play around in
I'm not going to scroll through the comments to see if it's been mentioned, but shadow labrys in p4a has a 'programmer' special in titanomachia, where she inputs up to 3 moves for the puppet to do removed from the typical 'rules' of her puppet
there's a modded character for rivals of aether called Mojibake. They aren't a puppet character, but they do have a programer-ish ability that creates a projectile that will remember the attack you did before you made it and force you to the projectile and use it when its activated. it lets you do interesting things like use grounded attacks in the air.
I love how smash ultimate went about designing two puppet characters who are almost solar opposites to each other. One just wants to get in and kill the opponent off of 2 neutral wins, yet is balanced by stubby hitboxs while the other one wants to keep the opponent out and ruin their tempo/momentum yet is balanced by both a combo game and middling damage
I wonder... how would Alice from the touhou series be classified? Theres are some touhou fighting games, and Alice commands an entire army of dolls. Her weakness being that all the dolls attacks leave alice unprotected, and the hitbox is so disjoined from Alice that if you get up close to her she struggles a lot
I think that BBtag is a fun extension of puppet fighters. BBtag has no real puppet character in the game, but every character functions like a puppet character. You're freely able to activate a mode where you act separately from your partner. It can lead to some fun mixes, combos or more. You can also switch between the two characters and have them attack separately, with a pause in-between to make it hard for a combo to keep going.
Wizard (Y.O.M.I. Hustle) has a super that spawns an orb, which can be moved around separately and simultaneously to the wizard's normal actions and does attacks based on what the wizard preforms (i.e. it has a few unique attacks that trigger when the wizard does certain actions) . Pretty damn strong, given the turn-based no-execution-barrier nature of that game
The gimmick of Jack-O and Dahlia comes from Gargoos in KI. He has a super which summons minions the same way. The 'guy follows you and attacks via specials' thing Chaos does I think first comes from Alice (version 1) in Asura Buster. She had a skeleton with the same gimmick
I think the anime arena fighter “My Hero One’s Justice” series has an interesting puppet fighter: Tokoyami Fumikage and his puppet “Dark Shadow”. Here’s a video of the character and their moveset on TH-cam ( th-cam.com/video/0MPhAV5iSik/w-d-xo.html ) Being the only puppet character in the game, the character is also not a copy paste puppet fighter. The first thing I’ll take note of is the fact that summoning the puppet is linked to a special move that acts as an attack and combo extender. It can be combo’d into and out of- with more special moves. Typically I don’t see puppet characters summon their puppets with a hitbox, so I find this part of the design interesting. The second thing I’ll note is how the puppet works- without meter or a timer. As mentioned, summoning is as simple as pressing a special button to attack. The puppet remains active indefinitely until Tokoyami uses the special again……. Or is attacked enough himself. That’s the third thing I’ll note. Another atypical feature of this puppet fighter in comparison to other ones is that getting hit enough retracts the puppet. The weakness is getting attacked, rather than a meter or timer, which makes gameplay with this puppet character different than many others from other games. The last thing I’ll take note of is how dark shadow changes Tokoyami’s moves. While the 3 supers remain the same regardless of whether or not dark shadow is active, some of Tokoyami’s normals and specials change. His universal un-blockable, universal armored attacks, and summoning attack are the same, but his other normals and other three specials change. To add to that, Tokoyami can use Dark shadow in his other 3 special moves when Dark Shadow isn’t summoned, which makes the moves slower, but allows Tokoyami to move and also attack freely. But with Dark shadow summoned, the moves become faster, but involve Tokoyami so he can’t act on his own anymore. To conclude, I think Tokoyami Fumikage and Dark shadow are another example of an interesting puppet character in a fighter that differs from many others of their kind and add something new to the table for conversation and gameplay.
I recently just got done trying a bunch of different fighting games before returning back to smash. Sadly I didn't see many puppet characters, the idea always interested me though. Beerus was the first character that had a similar line of thinking of summon something, then do another input to make it attack the opponent in a certain way, but of course he's not a puppet character. Yes I did see Nappa, and I figured his gameplay would be amazing, but I know I won't have the time to make that character great (DBFZ isn't going to be my go-to fighting game after all). Also I preferred Beerus (main of mains), Trunks, Hit, Cooler, and Janemba more. I would then later get to play Jack-O in Guilty Gear Strive, and I absolutely love playing her, even though my inability to do combos making her look nothing like what top players do, I can't hold people down with a barrage of attacks from her and her minions. Since I'm lower level though, it's been fun blocking off areas of the map, and using good old fundamental spacing to punish the many many bad options other low skill level players do. They might have the deadly combos, but I'll just continually out-neutral them as I learn combos. I may not be doing 10+hit combos with Jack-O yet, but even bouncing enemies back and forth between her and her minion 3-5 times feels extremely satisfying. A bit tempted to try getting the xrd so I can try her "landlord" style of gameplay, even though I'd probably get my butt handed to me. Coming back to smash, it's been making me heavily consider Rosalina. Competitively she might be the least chosen main, even less so than picking random, but she just kinda does things I love. It's kinda funny how often people forget that Luma can attack when Luma isn't attached to Rosalina. It's like everyone lacks matchup knowledge against her, which is good because while basically all attacks have too much knockback to combo into anything else solo, but they can do some crazy combos if you somehow manage to space yourself properly between the two of you and the enemy player. Proper spacing can be hard with one character, now trying to do that with 2 characters, while trying to keep the enemy in a position to be exploited by the fact you have 2 characters makes that insanely hard. Ice Climbers de-sync is something that looks really fun because they have some of the coolest combos I've seen in any game. However, they are one of those "lab monster" characters, and I don't quite got that time. Also, it'd probably destroy my soul a bit to practice forever on some combos, just to run into a character that prevents you from ever getting close enough to actually start those combos. That said, in the short time I did try to learn de-sync stuff, it is kinda limited to having nana be close range to you unlike Rosalina & Luma, so it's easier to focus on doing different types of combos, compared to Rosalina where you are deciding which vastly different kind of situation you're putting and enemy into. I love both, but for the way my brain works, I prefer Rosalina's Style.
just fyi, the clip you show of IC's banned technique isn't actually what's banned at all, that's just a regular desync combo which is very hard and very much allowed, what is banned (the wobble), is repeatedly pummelling at fixed intervals during a grab, which is an infinite that only requires you to grab and press A at around 220 bpm, very easy and no setup required. The video you showed is called "top 10 wobble" plays because the player's tag is wobble, but the technique wobbling refers to specifically the infinite, desync combos are very much allowed.
@@eddventure6214 haha yep, fair mistake to make. Also funnily, the player wobbles, who the technique was named after, went on to refuse using it out of principle (way before it was banned) to show off the cool shit the character could do without it, hence that combo video.
Funnily enough, despite being the main face of the Puppet archetype, in the first game Zato was kind of a gimmicky zoner, as they hadn't come up with the puppet stuff yet.
Rivals of Aether has/used to have a pseudo desync fighter in Forsburn- who could summon an identical clone that had fully independent AI controlled movement, and on repeated inputs could also perform attacks determined by the clone's position relative to the opponent. On top of potentially confusing the opponent as to which of the two Forsburns was the real one, you were capable of doing some very nasty combo strings with an uncontested clone. This ability since got heavily changed- and now instead of being able to attack seperately the clone can now simply be detonated for a small explosion at any time. Now it's more of a projectile/combo extender. One interesting aspect that's present in all of the mechanic's iterations is that the summoning animation obscures which Forsburn is real and which is fake. Only the player who picked one of two possible inputs knows which is which- making it a potential defensive option as well. Either the opponent mistakenly attacks the clone, taking pressure off the original- or it's left alone and can potentially create an opening for a string. Forsburn as a whole is a very interesting character- beyond the clone mechanic he can also generate patches of smoke in which he is fully stealthed when not attacking, and he can move freely between patches without any visible animation. The concept of a character who can specialize in misdirection is just a very cool one that I haven't seen elsewhere.
Not that important but when you were showing the banned technique for ice climbers what you were actually showing was a technique called handoffs. Handoffs are totally legal, the banned tech is called wobbling, the clip you showed was of the player named "Wobbles"
I forgot about nappa guys my bad lmao
You also forgot about gargos from killer instinct 2012
Also Relius from BlazBlue. Love the video though! I always enjoy your content, master of goobers! :D
Please do one on Zappa. Would love to see what term you would've given him.
Nappa is just bald Dizzy. It's okay.
And +R Dizzy is probably the most fleshed out "programmer" in a fighting game, with her Fish allowing her to chain attacks like Dragon Knight, but with more options. Shadow Labrys also gets a programming function with her Titanomachia super, which lets her program 3 of her regular puppet attacks into a combo that is then followed up by a unique attack.
isn't Nappa more of a setplay character rather than puppet?
There actually is a programming character in Arcana Heart called Lieselotte. She can place up to 5 marks around the screen corresponding to 4 different types if attacks, and when she deploys her puppet, the puppet will travel to the marks in the order they were placed and perform the attack designated by the mark. without marks Lieselotte functions as a traditional puppet/stance hybrid character
Honestly if you're looking for strange outlandish fighting game character archetypes, Arcana Heart is full of them
AH definitely needs more recognition. I feel like everyone skips over it.
Liese’s Arcana Gier is more or less an Eddie that can be used by pretty much everyone in the cast, making them a psuedo-puppeteer as well.
Arcana Heart 3 is legit one of the best fighting games of all time. Lieselotte definitely deserved a mention.
The star motion lmao
@@spammerman7556 Lol yeah, I think the AH devs saw the SNK pretzel motion and were like "Hold my beer."
One thing I'm happy to see in more "modern" puppet fighting game characters: They stopped giving the puppets overheads and lows. Puppet characters have been, for the longest time, the source of some of the nastiest unblockable setups, having their puppet do a low that lands on the same frame the puppeteer lands an overhead. Hell, +R Zato could *loop* the unblockable, meaning the only thing between him and the instant win was burst and his ability to execute the setup consistently.
Yeah they just didn’t give a fuck back in old anime games lmfao, you could have meterless looping unblockables and not even be top 10 😭
weak mindset, puppet characters should have more unblockables
Keep in mind zato was low tier even with that lol.
That's bcs zatos win con is "get the other guy to block"
@@eddventure6214 Asura Buster's Alice was pretty busted. The game was almost amazingly balanced, just a few oversights
Just for some extra jojos info, it is possible to cancel your tandem (stand rush) while your stand is out so you’re not left completely helpless, specials and supers can also be inputted into tandem
tandem also has the utility of a very good amount of s from frame 1 so it’s not just a combo tool 🦤
Nice video dog
I didn’t know about the invuln 🤯 stand rush/random is so cool
I also like how the tandem gives the opponent time to predict your moves which creates interesting mind game scenarios
A🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Someone who I feel like doesn’t get recognition as a landlord is actually Gargos from KI who is overall stronger as a character but has to spend meter to summon one goon and has a max of two
came here to mention Gargos as well
Gargos is such a bastard. Especially with stone flesh and both Jerry and Larry out there to cockblock any whiff punishes you otherwise would catch him on
Pain and Panic are the best parts of Gargos' toolkit.
Change my mind.
actually their names are gary and larry
There's also Rosalina & Luma from Smash4 and SmashU.
-- They're kinda like the Desync example where they generally do the same thing at once but if one of them gets interrupted through animation locks, then the other one can keep going... For example all of Rosa's normals can be cancelled into a jump on startup, but Luma's can't, so you can frequently see Luma throw out an attack while Rosa instead jumps or wavedashes... etc.
-- But also like the Commander example where they do indeed have two different movesets with different properties to their attacks, and can control space from long range instead of having to keep the characters close by...
Small note on Carl! He does use negative edge to control Nirvana. You hold down the D button to move her, and release the D button to attack with her.
Some great examples you may have missed:
Commander: Persona 4 Arena essentially universalized this style of character, up to and including the ability to be separated from the puppet by 'displacement' (i.e. the Persona isn't locked to the position of the character, and will stay where it is after using moves, even if your main character moves away from it, and this can cause future moves with the Persona to activate from its current position rather than where it would usually spawn). EDIT: Also Shadow Labrys is a great example of a 'programmer' move - she has a super where she commands several consecutive attacks from her summon, which will then be performed all in a row after a delay.
Landlord: Gargos from Killer Instinct is basically the only other landlord character up until, as you mentioned, Black Dahlia released. However, he IS worth mentioning because he shares a lot of DNA with Jack-O.
Controller: Afi and Galu from Rushdown Revolt are a platform fighter example of the controller style - they have a special move that turns one into a statue and switches control to the other, and are essentially a stance character with slightly different movesets and the ability to 'leave' the other character in a position for later, however they also have moves that interact with the other dormant character (such as a dash that always travels towards the other character, etc).
Desync: a significantly pared-down version of this style of input exists in Marvel Vs Capcom Infinite and Power Rangers Battle for the Grid. For those games' non-character mechanic of (Reality) Infinity Storm and Megazord respectively, there are situations where the player commands 'the screen' to perform special actions from above based on which button is pressed, and if I recall correctly this can happen as long as that 'external' attack is off cooldown, even during the actual controlled character's recovery animations. So based on your timing, you could use one move while the 'game puppet' 's attack is on cooldown, and then use your PREFERRED puppet attack with a different button during the recovery of your character's move if the puppet attack comes off cooldown with the right timing.
another "landlord" puppet is surprisingly neco arc from melty blood type lumina
she can summon a shit load of minions (with added RNG) and her minions can all be destroyed
Nappa from Dragon Ball Fighterz has the programmable saibaman, the EX version. Watch some of the nonsense Plug comes up with, its pretty insane.
I knew I had forgotten about someone, I was considering talking about Ginyu but to be real i forgot nappa was in the game LMAO
@@eddventure6214 LMAO
Zato was the first character i ever main on a fighting game i took seriously. The challenge of learning negative edge while also learning basic fighting game concepts was an interesting experience. Because of this my control scheme is all kinds of ways of fucked up, using the triggers and bumpers so i can negative edge every single button no matter what instead of the tradicional face buttons. This is now my standard for 4 button fighting games and it always gets a funny response from my friends when they realize i play fighting with such a wack control scheme
In smash ult, the desync makes ice climbers have some seriously stylish combos too!
Funny how every smash game they rry tk to stop desync to not make ice climbers op but this time they just made ice climbers worse thsn the other games
11:28 Correction* This combo is not banned at all! The technique that is banned (Wobbling) is a simple infinite that just requires pressing a in a rhythm. I think your confusion came as that is a clip OF wobbles the ice climbers player named after said technique.
So for the melee clip what you showed is allowed to be executed . Wobbling is getting a grab and repeating pummel + down tilt or forward tilt with the puppet. This can be done forever and was a center point of their punish before it was bannded. What was in the video with the text was the player wobbles, being the player the term if coined after, pulling off sick legal desync combos. Sorry if i just misunderstood what the intent was!
Personally, Zato has always been the “puppet character” for me, the amount of control that you have over Eddie is so open that it would not surprise me if Eddie is programmed to act like a regular character!
pretty sure eddie is considered a "projectile" in gg
@@gavinator70 that wouldn’t surprise me at all, but I was thinking more “what does his brain look like?” Also “is he as squishy as he looks? Or is he just a complete liquid?”
i find it rly funny that at the part where it says "this technique is now officially banned." Ed shows a technique that is not, in fact, banned
Its so funny that you used a compilation about Wobbles (the player) instead of Wobbling (the technique). Smash Ultimate Ice Climbers desyncs are crazy to watch. Ult also has another puppet character, with Rosalina and Luma.
Shadow Labrys in P4AU is my favorite fighting game character of all time. Fully blown duo character with no drawbacks other than you can hit the persona and it only can get hit 6 times before needing to regenerate. They also have a programming super, similar to heritage of the future, which is known as the best super in the game since it makes the persona invincible
Titanomachia my beloved ♥️
Are there any cool characters I didnt talk about in the video? Feel free to share your favorite puppet characters/multi unit characters here in the comments!
Nappa from dbfz is mitterally the programmer character you talked about with his saibaimen, only problem is this is dbfz and the game is too offensive for this to be used too effectively
I've seen Gargos (KI) compared to Jack-O as another example
Loved all of these, could be worth doing a mini collab with Sajam about Gargos from KI? He's similar to Xrd Jack-0 afaik, but his gameplan mirrors a lot of older iterations of Zato focusing on screen control and runaway gameplan via weird air movement.
Rosalina covers the more traditional "commander" style puppet user for Smash, if I'm not mistaken.
Maids
Three examples of puppet characters I figured were worth mentioning that aren't in this video...
1. Shadow Labrys from Persona 4 Arena (Ultimax) is a pretty standard Puppeteer type character, where she weaves commands for her always active Persona, Asterius, in the middle of her combos. However, if you use one of her super moves, Titanomachia, she briefly becomes a Programmer, as she gives commands to Asterius the same way a JoJo HftF character does during Stand Rush, which they will execute in order, then cap off with a screen wide wave of darkness that launches the enemy skyward.
2. Kankuro from Naruto Clash of Ninja 2 onwards is also a notable Puppeteer that literally uses a puppet, and might be the first examples of a puppet character I've ever used in a fighting game, even if he's sort of watered down. In most of the games he's in, your B button has Kankuro himself attack while your A button has his puppet, Crow/Karasu, attack. In the Shippuden games, however, he also gets Salamander/Kuroari as a second puppet, and the C button, normally the throw button, commands them. Combo routes are more rigid in that game, but they are really wild when it comes to area control, especially since his primary projectiles are mostly AoE poison smoke bombs instead of kunai that can only hit directly.
3. Also from Naruto Clash of Ninja (but exclusive to Clash Revolution 3) is Chiyo, who is *almost entirely* reliant on her Mother and Father puppets to attack for her. B controls her Mother puppet, which is mostly used for quick, close range melee. A controls her Father puppet, which has slower, longer ranged attacks. C button has a throw, but she can also use it to deploy a special shield that I believe prevents her from taking chip damage. The big weird thing with her is that her puppets are totally stationary, only moving when using attacks. If you use one of her dash attacks, she will swap places with the puppet whose button you hit and make them do a spinning attack where they warp to, and if you use her aerial attacks, the button she hits will send the corresponding puppet spiraling towards the enemy. Her super moves, meanwhile, originate from Chiyo herself. She is one of the most difficult characters in the game to play, but her pressure can be outright oppressive and totally safe since she can command her puppets from across the map, but if the enemy uses a Substitution Jutsu or some other teleport to get to her when her puppets are away, she is in TROUBLE.
Gargos is another good example from Killer Instinct! I like the versatility his two minions provide, even having their own metered options as well as being able to eat them if I recall. Super sick character.
This was a very well produced and well written video! I thoroughly enjoyed watching it until the end. It was a very fun watch
I do have a little note as a melee fan. At 11:31 you say that the technique is banned now, but the technique being shown on screen are handoffs and not wobbling like you were searching for. Wobbles is a player that popularized wobbling in tournament, hence the name
This was absolutely just something I saw and got fixated on at 2 AM lol. I absolutely loved the video
I was just about to comment something exactly like this but knew some other nerdy gamer like me would’ve already done it. Great video and keep up the good work.
You‘re Jack-O was crazy in frosty faustings🔥🔥🔥
Or was it TNS?😅
@@thepear6684 it can be both lmao
@@eddventure6214 you destroyed punk😂
There actually is another duo character I'd say falls under Controller, but also are kind of their whole own thing, which is Afi & Galu from Rushdown Revolt.
They're obviously inspired by the Ice Climbers, seeing how RR is a platform fighter, but their movesets are slighly different from each other, kinda like Pyra & Mythra in Smash Ultimate (Different launch angles, single hit vs multihit, etc.). Thing is, only one of them are controllable at a time. Meanwhile the other one acts like a Strive Jack-O minion, and can be thrown around using a unique special (If I recall, one of them throws vertically, and the other horizontally), and of course another unique special to swap control between characters at any point, with only the stipulation that you need to make contact betweem the two before using the swap again.
I believe their damage is handled the same way the Ice Climbers are, so their big weakness is that when you're on the back foot you have to kinda babysit the one whos not being controlled at the moment, using the unique throw to jump off-stage to save it from helplessly falling into the blastzone, or swapping control to make a recovery, etc.
I might be wrong about some of this stuff, but their basic mechanic is still very much like what you said: a Controller. They're super cool. I wish anyone played that game lol
I mean they kinda committed self deletion with the first build, and there's rarely any way to come back from that
Carl was the first character that motivated me to pick up puppet types. I thought the mechanized war doll Fighting by his side was super bad ass so I decided to try my hand at the character which ultimately was about a year worth of struggling before I got any semblance of being good but once I got it down I have never played another character more fun, more unique, and with more options available to them. He is literally the golden standard for puppet characters for me. I feel like the main reason for this is because of how much control you have over Nirvana. She doesn't disappear after a set time and she stays on the screen wherever you leave her allowing for so many different ways of combo expression.
Honestly I think this is why I really enjoy most puppet characters but can't get behind Zato/Eddie. The persistence really opens the door to cool things. Positioning is a layer of micromanagement I find enjoyable and dynamic, where working around the cycling nature of a meter or time limit isn't as much to my tastes.
Ed, if you want to look at Programmers, look into old iterations of Blazblue and Litchi Faye Ling's "The Great Wheel" super. It's similar to a Secret Garden, she poses while you program 5 or 6 direction plus D button inputs (number depends on game), after which her bo staff grows in size and stabs across the screen in the programmed directions while she mixes the shit out of you. It was so powerful that it was removed and modified into her Overdrive in CP and CF, where it still is incredibly powerful, but gated by the OD time limit, and the OD system generally not being a tool used for pressure. Also there was no meter penalty, which made it even crazier; she'd mix you, build bar, and do it all over again.
11:29 the technique being shown here isn’t wobbling, it’s just some crazy regrabs in a combo with other desync shenanigans thrown in, the reason for the title of the video is “10 Insane Wobbles Plays” because it’s a montage of the specific player in the clips, “Wobbles” who is the namesake for wobbling, as he popularized the technique. Very easy mistake to make, awesome video btw!
One really cool thing UNI Chaos has with his puppet is the fact that he can freely chain it into his other buttons and back, as if its attacks were simply normals (e.g 5C > 236A > 5A gatlings naturally even though 236A is a special). While not really related to his puppeteer-ness, it really gives him a cool connection to his doggy since he has a direct ways to act when Ahzi's attacks connect with the opponent, making you go back and forth between the two in pressure and combos
Even in a game of puppet characters, S.Labrys is the puppet character of puppet characters in that game. Or at the least, she's leans pretty heavily into being a programmer with her Titanomachia super. I would love to see more characters of that particular type. It's just really interesting.
Edd i play these characters (along with zoners and setplay) in fighting games. I love this video SO MUCH OMG
A new video essay! Of course, that means first person to find jimbulus gets their comment pinned!
i was thinking at rosalina and luma in smash too ! but yeah a lot of hftf in final. great video !
Here after your CEO win... def gonna be binging your videos!
I really likes Zato's design. The actual inputs for each move are very simple, and negative edge is a clever and efficient way to control eddy without taking buttons away from Zato himself. I like that his execution isn't pointlessly difficult; the difficulty of playing his character is just a natural result of the character's mechanical depth. Very interesting character.
Not an official character but an Idea I have for a puppet character is a character with an electronic android/robot, the robot has a secondary health bar/battery life that drains when it does mostly anything. So you, the puppet master have two options, you have to either hit it with batteries from any range that grants a massive singular increase of battery life. Or from a limited range you can attach a cord to it, tethered to you negating the battery life loss but limiting you and the puppet's movement and range.
Other notable puppet users:
Alice Margatroid (Touhou Project) - A literal puppet user. She’s able to set down multiple puppets for a variety of uses, I.e. Shooting a laser, walking into the opponent and exploding, spinning around with blades, etc. The puppets can be hit and defeated while attacking. She is able to set down 3-5 puppets (if you level up her puppet placement skill) and remotely activate them at any time. After being placed down, the puppets can not be hit by the opponent.
Rosalina and Luma (SSBU) - Rosalina has a little buddy that will follow her around and head its own moves set. The Luma can be defeated/knocked out of the area, causing Rosalina to lose some of her versatility (and one of her moves). Luma has no landing lag on their moves, so you have better combo routes. Luma will automatically respond within a few seconds.
Keiko (Pocket Rumble) - This character is the only puppet character in Pocket Rumble. She is assisted by her lovecraftian cat. She is the only character who cannot dash. Dashing will only move her cat. Her cat has a variety of moves that will hit hard and cover a wide area. However, that cat can be defeated if hit enough times, and will remain defeated for the rest of the stock.
11:30 Someone correct me if I’m wrong on this, but this wasn’t wobbling (the technique that I’m assuming is being referenced as banned). Wobbling is characteristic of that infinite pummeling into a smash attack kill where this clip was more about desynced throw combos which are legal. Good video, but I did want to clarify that desyncing with throws and desyncing in general aren’t banned altogether.
It wasn't fully wobbling but if you look closer they do wobble a *tiny* bit during the combo, which thus would make it unusable in some tournaments. The official statement on wobbling, though, does say that about 8 seperate attacks are allowed during it so in most regards it would be legal, but still wobbling.
At 11:30 not sure if you're saying desyncing is banned? Only wobbling is banned(grabbing someone and pummeling infinitely). Pretty sure handoffs are still fine with ICs.
A fighting game video about puppet fighters that doesn't diss my boy Devo, thanks Edd!
I do not consider Xrd Jack-O or Black Dahlia to be puppet characters. Thats like calling Faust a puppet character whenever he throws a minifaust. Its more like setplay than puppeteering.
Others have mentioned it here but I wanted to say that in Smash desyncing is not banned, only wobbling is, a specific desync technique that gets a kill from any percent off a single grab.
I know they're not traditional fighting games and it's a year after, but the Naruto: Ultimate Ninja Storm series has some seriously interesting puppet characters. Unlike other puppet characters, the ones in Storm are completely defenceless, to the point where even the puppet guards instead of the puppeteer. Playing them is like having one character who takes damage and one who deals damage (cause IIRC the puppets are invincible)
Excellent video! As a non-FG-player still interested in fighting games I had no idea about all the variety amongst puppet characters!
Shadow Labrys in Persona 4 Arena has a program super called Titanomachia that functions exactly as described - during superflash, input up to three of any of the puppet, "Asterius's" normal attack commands, and Asterius will do them in order, some with enhanced properties (and then end with a full screen finisher). It's one of, if not the strongest supers in the game because of how flexible it is for mixup, damage, or even defense, as Asterius can't be interrupted during Titanomachia except by actually putting Shadow Labrys in hitstun.
Aside from Titanomachia though, Shadow Labrys and Asterius function like the traditional Puppeteer style, but without negative edge: the game's normal persona dedicated buttons, C and D, issue commands to Asterius while all of Shadow Labrys's own attacks and specials are on the A and B character attack buttons, and aside from supers, none of Asterius's attacks require or induce an animation lock from Shadow Labrys herself. Though it may be worth mentioning that unlike Eddie or ̶M̶i̶n̶e̶r̶v̶a̶ Nirvana, Shadow Labrys isn't able to move and position Asterius around the screen without attacking.
Small correction: Carl's doll is called Nirvana/Ada. Minerva is Celica's doll.
@@Skallva Oops, my mistake, thanks!
Gotta love how the first ever puppet fighter in fighting game history- came from a Jojo fighting game.
Carl doesn't ditch negative edge just instead of every button having negative edge he has negative edge inputs instead of just button release he also have to do stuff like negative edge half circle D or DP input negative edge but upside is all of the negative edge inputs are on his D button
I'd love to shout out the Maids and Mario Gallo Bestino from Melty Blood who I believe fall under the "commander" type of puppet character. French Bread seems to like those.
As well as not just everyone in Persona 4 Arena Ultimax but specifically Ken and Koromaru who function with their personas and Koromaru as a puppet as well. Super interesting to me.
As a career puppet player im impressed you made this, a lot of outsiders to the archetype will recommend I pick characters like Chaos in Uni, but fail to understand its that simultaneous and complete control that drew me to Eddie and Carl.
Desync is so interesting!!
It being the foundation for a fighting game character is a great idea.
Amazing video. I’d love to see one about RNG characters like Faust, Teddie, Shingo, Hsien Ko etc..
Although she doesn't have it in Xrd, +R Dizzy can input 2 different thing for Fish to do in a row, which would fall under a programmer type character.
Now I finally have a good way to describe exactly what kind of puppet character Enchantress is.
Your timing on this ended up being relatively relevant, with two of the bigger fg releases having relevant applications of this (nier ofc, and also Mk1 Geras has like a super or smth where he makes a preprogrammed sand clone) interesting stuff!
one of the best iterations of a commander comes from Them’s Fighting Herds in Pom, who iirc was a serious powerhouse at one point ironically considering her meek nature character wise.
While I'm personally not a fan of GG Strive all too much, I really do love Jack-O there and how they changed her there. Being able to kick thr minions around and they have hitboxes and make them attack is really cool! I may give her another shot but I'm not sure. I'll definitely play her though in GG Rev 2 as that game i find that more interesting and entertaining than Strive personally.
That Ky theme in the beginning gave me chills.
I think a Programmable Puppet Fighter would be really cool. Imagine a character flavored around being in a time-loop where they can do some input, and it records every input sequence your character did in the last 2 seconds. Then if you do a Light, Medium or Heavy version of your special REWIND button, you can create a puppet that does that exact sequence of actions. Did you jump, then punch? congrats, it does that too. With L/M/H deterkmining how far away the Rewind clone will appear AND how long it appears for. With Light being right in front of you, and only does it once.
the Interesting thing, is that this isn't just copying the actual animations, but the inputs themselves. For instance, if you do a grab input, but are super far away, you won't do a grab at all and just stand there, BUT you can then launch the Rewind clone and it'll proceed to try and do a Grab IF the opponent gets within range.
ALSO, the rewind is directionally sensitive, just like you are. If you Press Back to block, only for the opponent to jump over the rewind, it'll now be pressing foreward instead of block, and do either walk foreward, or a foreward attack. Similar kinda to how in Guilty Gear Strive you can turn a Perfection Protection into a universal overhead.
ALSO, the rewind is a physical version of yourself. So it can be hit and it can block as well. So if you store a sequence of blocks made in a row, then your opponent rushes you, you can do a Light Rewind and launch a Rewind of yourself in between the two of you, doing those blocks.
The downside is as i mentioned, it can also be hit. So your opponent can Dragonpunch the Rewind mid attack. This will destroy the rewind immediately, you're opponent cannot just juggle you in the past. but you will take damage from that dragonpunch and take any hit-stun or launches if they happen. So you can't just launch the Rewinds blindly. They do benefit though that they won't take block-stun and have armor on all attacks. so even if they do Dragonpunch, their attack lands as well.
Also, the direction the Rewind is launched in in directly in relation to where you are mid position. So you can do some standard crouch-jabs to do some footsies with your opponent, then jump and launch the Rewind in the air. Because you literally can't crouch mid-air, these inputs are instead turned into air-attacks.
This seems like a great addition to the concept of Abbacchio from JoJo being added to a fighting game with Moody Blues acting like a rewind for himself, like his ability in the manga and anime
@@callumbreton8930 This is why I'd love to see an arcsys Jojo fighter where each character is as unique in how they control and break the game's rules more as they are in Blazblue for instance. In the existing Jojo fighters their unique reality bending abilities are usually confined to theatrical flourishes for supers or installs rather than actually representing what the abilities do. I'd love to see talented FG devs get super creative with representing the stands in really interesting ways that have more strategic uses than raw power.
A Skullgirls character was planned to use Save States to do Time Lord shenanigans...
Who knows if we'll ever see it happening...
Shadow Labrys from Persona 4: Arena is one of two "puppet" characters in a game where every character's a puppet character! She leans on the "Programmer" archetype that you mentioned, and I was honestly surprised she didn't get a mention! Her Persona, Asterius, is unique in the fact that it's constantly providing pressure on the field, and activates through specials, like a Commander's puppet. However, during her Awakening Super, Titanomachia, S. Labrys can effectively Stand Rush, though his attacks are much slower and weightier, causing a lot of chaos and screen shaking that lets her toss out mixup after mixup until the super ends with a screen-wide explosion!
The other Puppet from the same game is Ken, who's unique in the fact that he has TWO puppets. The first is his Persona, which functions like any other Persona, coming out as a proxy for his Specials, and allowing him to continue safe blockstrings alongside his second puppet: a dog named Koromaru. Koro has his own buttons that cause him to perform wide, sweeping attacks, similar to Chaos from Under Night. Koromaru even has his own super! Though, it still costs Ken's meter.
Another Programmer example I can think of is Dizzy's "Fish" special, which lets her input two commands to the fish upon summoning it and inputting the move
Congrats on the CEO win 🏆
Touhou Hisoutensoku has an example of a character, Alice Margatroid, who seems like she should be puppet character but she just isn't. Alice's lore is that she's a literal puppeteer who commands dozens if not hundreds of dolls, and while she can set up many of these dolls in-game, the dolls function as setplay tools akin to Mu-12's steins or Under-Night Seth's orbs than they do true puppets like any of the examples in your video.
She does have a super (I forgot the name) that let's her control a single doll for a certain amount of time, so that kinda puts her in the "Controller" type even though it doesn't completely define her as a character.
Also, by the video's classification system, Youmu has two(?) supers that turn her into a Desync puppeteer for a bit.
My absolute favourite is still Jack O.
TL;DR: Her design allows the player to switch between several archetypes and it add depth to her gameplay, making her unique at specific things characters in those same archetypes and sometimes stronger, can't do. I love it.
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In Strive: You can play as rushdown/zoner/setup character whenever your MU allows or if you simply want to use a certain strategy a particular way. It adds depth to her design and use making her a treat to practice as you constantly figure out new minion configurations and setups, she also has the added bonus to cover certain aspects of her game she lacks against strong characters, for example, her Shield command allows her to potentially stifle strong offense from the likes of Chipp or Nago, letting you take a turn.
In Xrd: It feels exactly like you're controlling an orchestra and playing against your opponent while attempting to craft a symphony that will soon lead to her demise, you can also somewhat move between character archetypes, just in this instance, you're playing more of very active mini 4X game and sometimes RTS than that of a zoner (though i would argue you can Zone with her here as well), until you level up your houses and play the ultimate game of rushdown ever.
I main her in both games andt it has been an amazing ride thus far.
Thanks for the videos man. Look forward to next guide. Totally check out strapped Jacko mod :) keep bussin in those tourneys
I hope that my wrist heals fast. I wanna play those FG‘s again🔥
Happy Chaos is a kind of weird puppet character in my eyes, having his "puppet" out locks him out of blocking and allows him to hit the opponent whenever the reticle is focused on them while expending meters he also uses for zoning, allowing him a similar style of lockdown to Zato where the gun covers for him after unsafe or - moves and covering places on screen he is not while he goes about his day.
Yomi Hustle's Wizard has some commander aspects in his orb super, where he summons a floating orb. YOMI Hustle's control scheme isn't limited by button presses or even time, so moving the orb around is pretty straightforward. Each frame, just pick the direction you want it to fly while also having Wizard do whatever move you want. You ARE required to have Wizard do his own attacks in order to have the orb attack, as with a character like Chaos, but that can lead to some incredible combos with just a few attack inputs.
Ninja's summon is a tiny bit like a puppet. I'd say not really, since it only appears and does one of a few attacks, except you can use displacement to switch places with it or attach a grappling hook to it and pull yourself toward it.
It would be really interesting seeing YOMI Hustle add a character that really leans into the puppet master archetype, though it would be hard to balance considering the game's turn-based nature.
Lmao if you think about it duck hunt in smash is the ultimate puppet character.
The can is a puppet, once you send it you can control it whenever.
The clay frisbee is a controller, for block strings and combos if you have the foresight.
And the gunman is the programmer, it can confirm into grabs or safe aerials or stop / start combos if you anticipate what the opponent will do.
Me playing Bridget when I can poke across the whole stage: “mmmm this gameplay is balanced
Eddy, does something semi reasonable: “>:(“
Congrats on top 10 for the 9moons rankings, Edd!
How would you classify Captain Ginyu in Fighterz? He has 4 minions he can summon in a specific order, each with 3 possible actions they can do depending on how Ginyu summons them. After they're summoned they act independently, and even stay on screen if Ginyu is hit, allowing him to break out of combos.
Honestly I consider Ginyu an Item Throw character, like Teddy or Faust (Though more like Teddy, since his items are on a fixed rotation.).
Oh hey new Eddventure, I guess I won’t cause the March 5th 2023 incident
My favorite puppet fighter is Jeff Dunham & Peanut from Comedy Central
I’d love to see a type of video like this for rushdowns, some characters are Arizona Tianhou from tfh(a ground and Aerial rushdown respectively)
Or even charge characters, like Umbrella(a charge grappler) Paprika( a rush down grappler)
Another character that also falls into the Controller category is Afi & Galu from Rushdown Revolt. To my knowledge it's the only controller type character in a platform fighter, and would be cool to see implemented more for stylish movement and combo options.
My favorite puppet character has gotta be Olimar. There’s no stronger definition of chaotic without RNG. There’s a ton of strategy to be found in managing your Pikmin rotation while and through your fighting.
I don't play fighters personally- I'm bad under competitive pressures, clumsy with my inputs, and terrible at learning under the harsh conditions you're expected to survive learning fighting games. However, I thought I'd chip in with the character I think of when I hear about "puppet characters". Pom from Them's Fightin' Herds. She's a pretty standard Commander character whose commands are all handled through the special input button. She calls in her puppies to bite, scratch, dig, etc and help her extend blockstrings and create crossups. She can have a certain "point value" of dogs on screen at once, and with careful positioning can make some very powerful setups. Her Level 2 super lets her bring in the Dad dog as a puppet, who fills the gap in her big 3-point Mom dog puppet's moves. Good Pom players are super interesting to watch- since the games are so fast it's interesting seeing them find time to set up her puppets and create those oppressive situations. Figured I'd bring her up since nobody else in the comments seems to have yet.
another really interesting "Landlord" pupper character is surprisingly neco arc from melty blood lumina
she kinda fits the criteria, being able to summon a shit ton of minions that flood the entire screen (with the added rng hell) and most minions can be destroyed easily as well
I'm surprised Persona arena wasn't mentioned because essentially the entire cast is a bunch of puppet users.
In terms of programmers Litchi using Daisharin in BlazBlue is a great example. To the point where it was originally so good that they had to rework it entirely in future versions of the game.
Also if were talking about streamlined versions of what the ice climbers do, Rosalina and Luma in the two recent smash games do that very well.
The archetype is very wide and has a lot of room to play around in
I'm not going to scroll through the comments to see if it's been mentioned, but shadow labrys in p4a has a 'programmer' special in titanomachia, where she inputs up to 3 moves for the puppet to do removed from the typical 'rules' of her puppet
there's a modded character for rivals of aether called Mojibake. They aren't a puppet character, but they do have a programer-ish ability that creates a projectile that will remember the attack you did before you made it and force you to the projectile and use it when its activated. it lets you do interesting things like use grounded attacks in the air.
I love how smash ultimate went about designing two puppet characters who are almost solar opposites to each other.
One just wants to get in and kill the opponent off of 2 neutral wins, yet is balanced by stubby hitboxs while the other one wants to keep the opponent out and ruin their tempo/momentum yet is balanced by both a combo game and middling damage
No zappa love :,C hes fully unique as he is many of these categories in one and more
I wonder... how would Alice from the touhou series be classified? Theres are some touhou fighting games, and Alice commands an entire army of dolls. Her weakness being that all the dolls attacks leave alice unprotected, and the hitbox is so disjoined from Alice that if you get up close to her she struggles a lot
I think that BBtag is a fun extension of puppet fighters.
BBtag has no real puppet character in the game, but every character functions like a puppet character. You're freely able to activate a mode where you act separately from your partner. It can lead to some fun mixes, combos or more. You can also switch between the two characters and have them attack separately, with a pause in-between to make it hard for a combo to keep going.
not an official character, but the Plusle & Minun mod for Rivals of Aether is a great example of streamlined, purposeful desync design
If only you knew what would be announced 6 days after this upload.
I'm pretty sure Bedman? will be a puppet character of some kind.
You're fucking sick dawg keep up the quality work
Wizard (Y.O.M.I. Hustle) has a super that spawns an orb, which can be moved around separately and simultaneously to the wizard's normal actions and does attacks based on what the wizard preforms (i.e. it has a few unique attacks that trigger when the wizard does certain actions) . Pretty damn strong, given the turn-based no-execution-barrier nature of that game
The gimmick of Jack-O and Dahlia comes from Gargoos in KI. He has a super which summons minions the same way.
The 'guy follows you and attacks via specials' thing Chaos does I think first comes from Alice (version 1) in Asura Buster. She had a skeleton with the same gimmick
I think the anime arena fighter “My Hero One’s Justice” series has an interesting puppet fighter: Tokoyami Fumikage and his puppet “Dark Shadow”. Here’s a video of the character and their moveset on TH-cam ( th-cam.com/video/0MPhAV5iSik/w-d-xo.html )
Being the only puppet character in the game, the character is also not a copy paste puppet fighter. The first thing I’ll take note of is the fact that summoning the puppet is linked to a special move that acts as an attack and combo extender. It can be combo’d into and out of- with more special moves. Typically I don’t see puppet characters summon their puppets with a hitbox, so I find this part of the design interesting.
The second thing I’ll note is how the puppet works- without meter or a timer. As mentioned, summoning is as simple as pressing a special button to attack. The puppet remains active indefinitely until Tokoyami uses the special again……. Or is attacked enough himself.
That’s the third thing I’ll note. Another atypical feature of this puppet fighter in comparison to other ones is that getting hit enough retracts the puppet. The weakness is getting attacked, rather than a meter or timer, which makes gameplay with this puppet character different than many others from other games.
The last thing I’ll take note of is how dark shadow changes Tokoyami’s moves. While the 3 supers remain the same regardless of whether or not dark shadow is active, some of Tokoyami’s normals and specials change. His universal un-blockable, universal armored attacks, and summoning attack are the same, but his other normals and other three specials change. To add to that, Tokoyami can use Dark shadow in his other 3 special moves when Dark Shadow isn’t summoned, which makes the moves slower, but allows Tokoyami to move and also attack freely. But with Dark shadow summoned, the moves become faster, but involve Tokoyami so he can’t act on his own anymore.
To conclude, I think Tokoyami Fumikage and Dark shadow are another example of an interesting puppet character in a fighter that differs from many others of their kind and add something new to the table for conversation and gameplay.
Thanks for the info!
Hey, you’re welcome! Glad someone could read this and get something good out of it.
You saw the video?
Shadow Labrys from Persona 4 Arena is a Programmer! She has a super called Titanomachia that allows her to program attacks from her Persona.
great video as always!
I recently just got done trying a bunch of different fighting games before returning back to smash. Sadly I didn't see many puppet characters, the idea always interested me though.
Beerus was the first character that had a similar line of thinking of summon something, then do another input to make it attack the opponent in a certain way, but of course he's not a puppet character. Yes I did see Nappa, and I figured his gameplay would be amazing, but I know I won't have the time to make that character great (DBFZ isn't going to be my go-to fighting game after all). Also I preferred Beerus (main of mains), Trunks, Hit, Cooler, and Janemba more.
I would then later get to play Jack-O in Guilty Gear Strive, and I absolutely love playing her, even though my inability to do combos making her look nothing like what top players do, I can't hold people down with a barrage of attacks from her and her minions. Since I'm lower level though, it's been fun blocking off areas of the map, and using good old fundamental spacing to punish the many many bad options other low skill level players do. They might have the deadly combos, but I'll just continually out-neutral them as I learn combos. I may not be doing 10+hit combos with Jack-O yet, but even bouncing enemies back and forth between her and her minion 3-5 times feels extremely satisfying. A bit tempted to try getting the xrd so I can try her "landlord" style of gameplay, even though I'd probably get my butt handed to me.
Coming back to smash, it's been making me heavily consider Rosalina. Competitively she might be the least chosen main, even less so than picking random, but she just kinda does things I love. It's kinda funny how often people forget that Luma can attack when Luma isn't attached to Rosalina. It's like everyone lacks matchup knowledge against her, which is good because while basically all attacks have too much knockback to combo into anything else solo, but they can do some crazy combos if you somehow manage to space yourself properly between the two of you and the enemy player. Proper spacing can be hard with one character, now trying to do that with 2 characters, while trying to keep the enemy in a position to be exploited by the fact you have 2 characters makes that insanely hard.
Ice Climbers de-sync is something that looks really fun because they have some of the coolest combos I've seen in any game. However, they are one of those "lab monster" characters, and I don't quite got that time. Also, it'd probably destroy my soul a bit to practice forever on some combos, just to run into a character that prevents you from ever getting close enough to actually start those combos. That said, in the short time I did try to learn de-sync stuff, it is kinda limited to having nana be close range to you unlike Rosalina & Luma, so it's easier to focus on doing different types of combos, compared to Rosalina where you are deciding which vastly different kind of situation you're putting and enemy into. I love both, but for the way my brain works, I prefer Rosalina's Style.
Noob Saibot NEEDS to join puppet characters to differentiate him from the other ninjas
just fyi, the clip you show of IC's banned technique isn't actually what's banned at all, that's just a regular desync combo which is very hard and very much allowed, what is banned (the wobble), is repeatedly pummelling at fixed intervals during a grab, which is an infinite that only requires you to grab and press A at around 220 bpm, very easy and no setup required. The video you showed is called "top 10 wobble" plays because the player's tag is wobble, but the technique wobbling refers to specifically the infinite, desync combos are very much allowed.
Aint no way
why would they mix me like that
@@eddventure6214 haha yep, fair mistake to make. Also funnily, the player wobbles, who the technique was named after, went on to refuse using it out of principle (way before it was banned) to show off the cool shit the character could do without it, hence that combo video.
What about Pom from Them’s Fightin’ Herds?
Also Oleander when Fred is out, if I'm not mistaken.
Funnily enough, despite being the main face of the Puppet archetype, in the first game Zato was kind of a gimmicky zoner, as they hadn't come up with the puppet stuff yet.
Hey, JoJo fan here! Devo’s puppet is called “Ebony Devil.” And Devo is named after the American new wave band of the same name!
Rivals of Aether has/used to have a pseudo desync fighter in Forsburn- who could summon an identical clone that had fully independent AI controlled movement, and on repeated inputs could also perform attacks determined by the clone's position relative to the opponent.
On top of potentially confusing the opponent as to which of the two Forsburns was the real one, you were capable of doing some very nasty combo strings with an uncontested clone.
This ability since got heavily changed- and now instead of being able to attack seperately the clone can now simply be detonated for a small explosion at any time. Now it's more of a projectile/combo extender.
One interesting aspect that's present in all of the mechanic's iterations is that the summoning animation obscures which Forsburn is real and which is fake. Only the player who picked one of two possible inputs knows which is which- making it a potential defensive option as well. Either the opponent mistakenly attacks the clone, taking pressure off the original- or it's left alone and can potentially create an opening for a string.
Forsburn as a whole is a very interesting character- beyond the clone mechanic he can also generate patches of smoke in which he is fully stealthed when not attacking, and he can move freely between patches without any visible animation. The concept of a character who can specialize in misdirection is just a very cool one that I haven't seen elsewhere.
Not that important but when you were showing the banned technique for ice climbers what you were actually showing was a technique called handoffs. Handoffs are totally legal, the banned tech is called wobbling, the clip you showed was of the player named "Wobbles"
Great video brother