@@AlaskanBallistics h4350 is king of all medium slow powders along with varget however put a couple shells in the freezer and shoot them along side your others
I really enjoy your videos Ron. I’ve enjoyed almost50 years of hunting and enjoying the outdoors. The information you pass and the content of them are enjoyable as well as beneficial. It saddens me to see the moral fabric and compass of this beautiful country of ours deteriorate. Hunting and the outdoors and our way of life is very critical for my wellness. Thanks again Ron
Thank you, John. I believe the moral compass has swung so wildly to the crazy, foolish side that folks will finally wake up and demand change. Just hope it doesn't have to be violent. History is not on our side.
Thank you Ron I wish I learned this on Wednesday. Yesterday I went sheep hunting at 10800ft with my 6.5 creedmore using 143gr eld x ammo. There was a giant black hawaiian mouflon ram 400 yards away. The sun was heating everything up at this point. I over compensated and shot just right over his back. Hell or high water im gonna get me that black ram next time.
Thanks for all you do, including braving out into the cold and snow these past few videos including the past two videos on lever guns that I enjoyed. Way to bring the science. I try and use powders that are not temperature sensitive when I can. My youngest brother was going to order a CDS dial for his 7mm Rem Mag for his mule deer 🦌 hunt in Idaho in 2019. We are at 1200 ft above sea level and there it was in that 6500-7500 range. According to those charts he wouldn't have had to spend the $75 for the dial. Which he didn't anyway since he took his 270 Winchester that had a Windplex turret on it instead. He is much more consistent and accurate with that rifle so that gave him confidence. Side note, you used in this test a caliber that I have wanted for a while. A 22-250 that can actually shoot those 70+ grain bullets with speed. Congratulations on your monster Nebraska whitetail too.
Hi Ron: I read one your articles about creating the .260 Rem. rifle. Beautiful. Then, I got in on the 2nd. season of Wildcraft: West of Somewhere. Didn't care much for the first 2-3 episodes at the ranch, on the road, etc. But, when you finally got after the auodad my interest perked. Great video, and I look forward to watching more.
Really enjoy your video's. I find that your explanations make sense to me and I understand the concepts, some of the other people on TH-cam not so much.
You just made MY DAY. I've always gotten slack about how I think trajectory really doesn't change that much when considering temps and altitude. I've ONLY GONE by MY FINDINGS and keep in mind that I'm No Scientist or mathematician. I just keep my AIM the same no matter the elevation or temps and seem to get on target without making any adjustments........THEN I keep my Game Shooting under 450yrds MAX these days...been out at the 550yrds but didn't get the instant kills so my new limit is at least a hundred yards shorter...FOR ME. You've dispelled the myths and put it ALL into perspective according to distance, temp and elevation for us laymen hunters. Thanks again Ron and Please KEEP 'EM COMING.
A friend who was army sniper ,he said next to body in the thermo underwear they had a pocket to put the pouch of 5-10 .338 Lap Mag cartridges in . Due to the cold affecting the ammo, rifle was zsroed with body temp ammo.
Ron, we were on an subarctic Caribou hunt 10 years ago in January. There happened to be what they call an Article outflow. This is a blast of extreme cold from the arctic. The thermometer hit -48c or -54 f on one day. Of the many extreme things that happen under those conditions, 1 thing stands out. my partner & I, were travelling on ski-doo. A lone caribou was walking across a pond. From a small hill at 150 yards, I fired one shot. We both looked at the rifle, because the noise was like nothing Ive ever heard, it made noise but not a blast. Partner says what happened, did it fire, however the Caribou had collapsed mid stride hit behind front shoulder. Other weird things about extreme cold.. No hand loads worked. (Expert handloaders, properly sealed cases etc.) Some rifled actions will not open or close, most are difficult to open or close , light pin strikes( even properly degreased..etc) Thankfully, that weather only lasted for 1 day, and then we were back to normal -30c or warmer.
Great video! As you noted, for most hunting inside 400 yards the difference isn't often enough to make a difference... however many powders give drastically different muzzle velocity with these 80 degree swings. What does the affect of that , muzzle velocity change, coupled with altitude and temperature changes have?
At the ranges I tend to shoot I noticed on your charts there was no real differences. But then I don't see myself ever shooting anything past 250 yards max.
I know this random but I lost my job of five years and thank the Lord I have new job and watching your channel was the only think that really cheered me up when I lost my job
I just watched this again...extremely interesting topic..great video ! And comment on the deer..that was an outstanding impressive whitetail !! Congrats Ron !
Im on a 5 night stretch at work and binge watching this channel……so far Ive loved every video. Between this one and MeatEater Im picking up new info every episode.
Thankyou for this video, I am just about to head away on a winter Bull Tahr hunt and am sighted in at sea level and will be hunting at 1200m, this info confirms what I felt would happen, most of my hunting is kept within 400m anyway, Cheers from New Zealand
Hunting high in Colorado... You'd think he was more concerned about the Pringles in his backpack than ballistics tables. On a serious note, thanks for the content. I was a ballistician in a previous life. Love it!
As an outfitter in Saskatchewan all my life I saw most of my client's rifle's to be low and off zero (80%) , on Sunday we spent all day rezeroing rifle's one shot at a time on a cold barrel !
Thanks Ron, great stuff. I’d be interested to know if larger caliber bullets would be affected by changes in altitude to a greater extent due to the increase in drag when compared to the .22 caliber. I noticed a larger difference with my .270 when compared to what that chart indicates that I should have experienced. I zeroed my rifle right at sea level for 200 yards, and rechecked it at around 5400ft above sea level. It was hitting about 3” higher at 200yds at the higher elevation. I could have goofed something, but I didn’t drop or notice any impacts to the rifle, and I was quite confident in my work. I wonder if the larger diameter bullet made a difference at that shorter difference. It was also a bit warmer when I zeroed the rifle. I love your work, thanks for sharing with everyone. -Denver
What an awesome channel. What an awesome explanation. You have a way to explain things that makes them easy to understand. I appreciate your work. Thank you.
I would like to know how much a cold rifle or cold ammo effects your zero. I was in northern Wisconsin a few weeks ago and left my ar15 a2 w iron sights in my truck in - 20 degree weather. When I went to the range it was probably 10 degrees out. My ammo was room temp when I left but I'm sure it cooled down while I was at the range shooting. I wonder how much of a shift their would be using a cold gun and cold ammo vs if I were to shoot this summer with a warm gun and warm ammo. Or if you mix a cold gun with warm ammo or warm gun with super. Cold ammo. So many variables. Awesome video!
Good points, Cory. I was going to include the powder temp. in this, but, liek adding the angled shooting, it becomes too much for most viewers to sit through. More complicated, too. But it does reinforce the truth of the absolute best answer to all of this: get closer! Bad news on powders is that they can lose power with cold. And just how much varies from powder to powder. And with factory ammo we don't know what that powder is. Best we can do is test fire frozen vs. ambient temperature loads and see drop difference on paper or chronograph. Good news is most powders are being reformulated to be temperature insensitive, leaving one less thing to worry about.
As someone who hunts all fall and winter here, you need to zero for the weather. For deer at sub 150 yards it's not relevant but for varmint size targets you need to either zero with cold ammo or pocket-warm ammo and certain sorts of powder are to sensitive, single base extruded is the go-to, double base can affect velocity up to 10%
Was looking for a fellow Wisconsinite in the comments. I am kinda curious how much our most extreme temps could affect the powder. We can get down to -50's with windchill and I can't imagine that's healthy for anything (even us Wisconsinites are forced to say it's a bit nippy when it hits -50 :P). Obviously nobody would be hunting in that type of weather, that's take shelter type of weather, but I'm curious if someone were to shoot in it, how much would it affect things. Curiosity might kill the cat with me this winter if we hit that haha
@@fenner1986 I usually leave my gun in the truck (cased overnight)... I wonder how much slower the ammo will be if I left the ammo in their overnight as well. It's got to have an effect. I know the higher end ammo usually has some temp resistant powders but it's still a great question.
Bit jelly of you all out west. All I got to hunt is whitetail, rabbits, and coyotes and I'm not much a coyote hunter. Hard to find in the UP of Michigan and it seems to me you need all kids of electronic wizardry to even get a sight on one. Good video, Mr. Spomer.
I remember having to study my charts as my father pick out random ranges and if I got one wrong I didn't get to go on that trip. But I made my boys learn the same way
I experience this. It's exaggerated with my handloaded barnes 300 black 120gr. I can't wait to get a deer this year with it. I'm very happy with 2425fps (at 5800 ft above sea)
I have a MOA shift from summertime in Colorado to Winter time of a half MOA. For some reason I tend to have more consistent groups in the winter VS summer. I’m not sure if this is due to cold air being “cleaner” or not. I do know that snow is referred to as “dry.” A person can brush a snowy log off and light a fire, but water you cannot do, so maybe the atmosphere becomes as such with less humidity? I did shoot in Texas one time and my optic was maxed out at 1300 yds, and when I got back home I was curious about this extra seeming drop… my Kestrel (handheld weather station) changed and said I could get out to 1750-1800 yds before maxing out my optic. I used to shoot older school with DOPE charts from countless shooting and when traveling to comps in NM I would have saddening results. After my Kestrel however I could switch environments seamlessly. So I find it almost a necessity to become either a weatherman and ballistician, or invest in a Kestrel to give real time feedback on the environment.
Great video and information but The bigger factor in that 456 yard shot landing high was the fact you were shooting uphill steep uphill or downhill shots drop less
just a thought. I think it's a good idea to test fire and check your gun at a range in the area your going to be hunting in and rezero if necessary then you can confidently shoot at game and confirm any ballistic change before going into the field.
Norma does research on impacts on temperature of your ammunition and impact points. Suggestion is to keep your ammo warm next to your body. 2nd question. When it get a cold metal contracts. How much impact does this have on muzzle velocity.
Hey Ron, do a vid on trajectory changes due to shooting angle...No hunter probably ever shoots at 0 degree angle. I noticed your target was at an up hill angle. LOL.
I believe humidity can have an impact as well. colder the air the less moisture it can retain. Do we ever have to worry about barrels expanding or contracting when in extreme climates? Great Stuff here and keep up the awesome work!
Thanks Sam. Yes, humidity has a small effect, generally not worth worrying about. Makes for less drag, so shots go higher, but barely. Nitrogen molecules are more dense than water, so humidity reduces drag. Barrel swelling/shrinking not an issue I've ever heard of except for thin barrels heating up and warping/wandering from hot loads or high volume. Accuracy suffers. Best to zero for cold barrel first shot success with these.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors Thank you so much for the response Mr. Spomer. That Humidity fact is something i had backwards! I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. Please keep up the great work! I find it very useful as someone who is now getting back into the world hunting.
Odd caliber to use for discussing big game hunting out west at elevation, would think 270, 30-06 or 7mm RM would be a more useful example. I might have missed it but what about high elevation and warmer temperatures. In my 30 years of hunting deer in Utah I have been at 7 thousandish feet in snow storms and days where I was perspiring in a T shirt. My nit picking aside this is a great subject to discus. When I get to hunting camp I run my ballistic app on my phone using prevailing conditions to check my drops. If needed I will make a new drop card for the current situation. Exactly like you said out to 400-450 yards its not much but nice to be precise as possible.
The cartridge/bullet were just props for illustrating the points which are: the higher you go, the less the drag. The colder it gets, the more the drag. And vice versa. And all altered slightly by actual barometric (weather) changes from day to day. But, again, not much to worry about inside of 400 yards or so. Still, as you note, nice to know and be as precise as possible without having an anxiety attack over it.
Hey Ron anesthesiologist here. Air doesn’t become thinner as you go higher in elevation your partial pressure drops. Concentration of oxygen is the same but it’s a pressure difference. This is why you need oxygen above 10,000 feet. 02 % is still 21% but the pressure is so low it don’t diffuse across into your lungs aka alveolar gas equation. Same thing with the bullet pressure is lower so there is less drag on the bullet.
I read something like this once before but didn't cogitate on it long enough to absorb. So, different effect, same results? But... surely oxygen and nitrogen molecules at altitude eventually thin into nothing, right?
@@RonSpomerOutdoors as pressure deceases gas molecules will start to separate as far away from each other in a fixed space but the number is the same the only time the amount changes is at extreme altitude or you exit the atmosphere. It matters in anesthesia for our volatile anesthetics at altitude and 02 blood absorption. For shooting there is less drag but it’s from pressure and temperature not a change of % of gases. Your still the best Ron love your channel.
@@drdes9609 Your first sentence here about gas molecules separating far from each other is exactly what I think of as thinner air, so I'm not to far off base, right? Thanks for educating me! I'll undoubtedly need more.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors separating but not less so it’s not thinner as in less (amount). The best way to think of it is an attitude chamber they pump in just regular air but when they reduce the pressure to to simulate 20-40k feet everyone gets loopy. Oxygen isn’t diffusing across. I’ve experienced this cause I’m actually an Air Force doc and they let us try it out. You were sure on the right track but it’s the pressure change. It’s probably the only subject related to guns I could ever educate you on. Thanks for teaching me.
You can call it less dense or thinner. There is a reason jet aircraft make use of turbines to compress their engine input air at altitude and the lower density of air at high altitudes results in a a significant reduction of drag which causes greater speed and less fuel consumption per mile Bullets are going to act the same with regards to higher altitude equaling less drag.
I believe if you spend $10,000 dollars for a hunt of a lifetime makes hunting accuracy a tiny more important than shooting a ten on a paper target. Shooting long ranges and not being proficient doing it is a costly mistake. Most outfitters and hunting guides tend to frown on shooting at trophy animals at extreme distances. Fact is they don’t let clients do it; because they are the ones responsible to recover the animal for the client. Chasing after a poorly shot Elk is no fun at all; Bears are worse. If you insist doing it and wound an animal; don’t expect another chance until your next $10,000 dollar expedition. Trophy animals are too important to waste pulling stupid tricks. That is a seldom mentioned secret most outfitters don’t talk about.
Ron you missed a big factor. That target up the hill was 456 yds by laser. But just a 20 degree angle uphill reduced the ballastic distance to 428 yds. Folks not factoring ANGLE may miss a shot.
@ 1776: Yep, that's correct. Gravity has less time to work upon angled shot than a straight-and-level one, so you have to hold low whether you are shooting up or down-hill. How much depends on the angle. An angle-cosine device can help with that, and some range-finders now include "true ballistic range" features for high-angle shooting. A Whiz Wheel or Mil-Dot Master also does the correction. Dope it out back at base camp, and laminate a card to your rifle or carry it easy at hand.
All other variables being equal, increased altitude should require less elevation hold since the air is less-dense than at sea level. Or "altitude up, sights down." Whereas the increased cold, all else being equal, is going to lessen the rate at which combustion occurs - cold slows down chemical reactions of all kinds - and also produce less-gas pressure behind the projectile than at lower altitude. Or, "temperature down, sights up." What was probably seen with that 450 yard shot with your existing ~ 1,000 feet above sea level zero, was the two effects more-or-less cancelling out one another. Seasoned long-range shooters use a number of methods to account for these variables. By compiling a thorough data (DOPE) book, under a wide variety of environmental conditions, once enough data has been collected, it can be highly-predictive and very useful. Using a good climate meter, as well as a high-quality ballistics program, also helps a great deal. If you really want to go the extra mile, you can buy an infra-red thermometer and along with a chronograph or doppler radar, you can track MV of a particular load versus ammo temperature. Once you get enough data points, the curve can be used to predict adjustments needed at various temperatures. The old-school way was to make sure your rifle and ammo are the same temperature as the surrounding environment, i.e., at ambient temperature, when chronograph readings are done. Conversely, if you find yourself hunting up high and in cold conditions, and want to squeeze a little extra MV out of your load, store it near your body core for warmth, or lay the shells in the sun for a few minutes to warm up. Seasoned LR/ELR shooters - whether professional soldiers, hunters, or competitors - tend to want to check/confirm/adjust their zeros every time they change density-altitude. Generally moving up/down 1000 feet is enough to throw off your zero at least a bit. As others commenting have noted, temperature-stable propellants have made the job of accounting for changing environmental conditions considerably easier than in the past.
I don't know that I have ever hunted below 6000 feet. I live at 7544 feet. I have never worried about altitude and air density affecting my shots. What I have wondered about is whether snow flakes will deflect the bullet. During a snow storm there are no long shots but I know a 200 yard shot will hit snow flakes if it is snowing hard. Just wondering.
I love your videos. Keep them coming. Question on this one. Doesn't the temp potentially alter your powder burn and therefore your muzzle velocity? They talk about temp stable powders. Your tables kept the muzzle velocity the same, but I think (scary :-) ) there are more variable at play here than just temp and alt.
Cold air will also have lower humidity than warm air. Humid air is more dense than dry air. Just another variable that is probably not significant unless it is raining heavily.
10° is cold? If you forgot your jacket it would be, but properly dressed its no issue. Also a buddy heater is your buddy, it can be -30 ill just turn up my heater lol. When I was a teen I didn't have a heater, below zero temps still never stopped me from hunting.
This made me think about the ballistics if fired from the space station at a point in the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy, which is 236,000,000,000,000,000 km (25,000 light years) away. My calculations are that there would be zero drop, and at 3200 fps, would take 944 trillion light years(to the 12th power) to reach target, with NO drift or loss of speed.
The opening video shows an upward angle shot, which can hit a bit high. Can you do a video on shooting at up and down angles? (both can hit high) Great videos and content.
Where van i find the charts on altatude changing bullet drop and wind drift for rifles and pistols. Thanks ahead of time for your wisdom. Ephesians 3:20 is so TRUE!
Hi Ron. I watch this video. and i have a question. High altitude low temp and cold cartriges must have an inpact on muzzel velocity and energy and have an inpact on the ballistic
Ha, come to sweden and hunt capercaillie or grouse. Shot 200-300 meter and the target is at most 10 cm (grouse) or 15cm (capercaile).. and temperature can be anything from -1 C to -40.. better handle that ammo properly as the ammo temperature can shift up to 10% in velocity between outside temperature and "pocket" temperature. Sometimes its so cold and the air gets in layers between cold and less cold air, making it act like water shifting the targets location. Many missed shots due to mirage-like conditions.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors yeah, early season you can take them in flight but in dec-feb there is 2 meter snow and skiis are required. Hard to shoot and move then. But it's regarded the most demanding form of hunting in Scandinavia, Long Range small targets and tough conditions.. and two days work for couple lbs of meat might not seem worth it but it is :)
How much does humidity count for? 90 equals higher humidity vs 10 at lower humidity. I know humidity is VERY variable, but it can account for some of the differences.
I'm debating which rifle to buy for my young boy to start learning. The most important thing to me at this age is light recoil. Im considering 243, 6.5, or 308. Which do you consider will have less recoil? Considering the stocks are made of the same material. As I know lighter guns have more recoil.
A 243 Win with and 80-87 grain bullet is a good way to go, depending on what game you're hunting. After learning to shoot a real rifle, they might not be bothered moving up to the 100 gr bullet. I shot a 243 as a young teenage boy, and later in college. I got a 6.5 for my daughter (30), and she felt it kicked 'too much'.
Using a 300y zero for your comparison, would you count on rezeroing when you travelled to high elevation to maintain your zero? If you did not reset your zero you would see a shift that would change your drop numbers as you gain shot distance.
Yes, your trajectory curve would change due to reduced drag. How much is highly variable, so always smart to re-zero. However, your drops and deflection would change, too, so your custom turret might no longer be valid. Gets complicated at long range.
You were also shooting pointing your gun up therefore the bullet is going to connect to the target is closer. All of your figures are computed at the level. While your pointing you gun up rather then on the level. Of course distance is going to cause the flight of the bullet to raise higher in flight therefore the air at the apex of the bullets flight the air is thinner.
Nobody going out west hunting in the mountains it's going to be using a 22-250 if he was going to illustrate this point you should have used a 270 or a 6.5 Creedmoor something going about 2,600 feet per second. His bullets were going 3200 ft per sec...
How much of a temp change make a major difference? Our Australian summer is normally about 35-40 degrees Celsius and winter gets down to -1 degree Celsius.
Powders are different, my experience with double base vihtavuori n5xx is almost 10% shift in velocity from +20 c to -10. Less then half that with single base n1xx. I get more velocity with n530 but when the temp drops, n133 is faster. And developing loads at -10c can create a lot of issues if shot at +30c during summer.
Run some ballistic charts and you'll get your answer, Lead Slinger. It's not huge difference for shots to 400 yards or so, but worth noting. What Henrik addresses below is a related issue, potential powder sensitivity to cold. Some powders are, some are not. This is in addition to the change in atmospheric drag.
SOLUTION: Carry a Kestrel 5700 weather meter/ballistic engine loaded with either Applied Ballistics or Hornady 4 DOF ballistics. Get the range and input it not the Kestrel 5700 and BINGO! Now you have your answer B/C the Kestrel has the temperature, air pressure , distance and your rifle and cartridge data. The price of a Kestrel 5700 is in the $500. range but for a $4,000. hunt it is "insurance IF you load it with correct data and practice using it.
Beautiful rack Ron, what are your thoughts on the 224 valkyrie in a bolt gun? Been looking at one pretty hard! Or 7mm08, 30/06, 308? Mostly for deer, Coyote and just target 🎯 shooting to stay sharp. Any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated, thanks. Stay safe and God bless 🇺🇸☠️🇺🇸!!!
If a bolt gun don't waste energy on ar15 limited calibers. With one exception, 6.5 grendel. With a bolt action a short action you have more options, 308 is well regarded but for extensive long range a 7mm is good but it requires a fast twist barrel. 6.5 creedmoor is perhaps even more suited.. But if you where scandinavian i would say 6.5*55 :)
This has quickly become one of my favorite channels.
I'm pleased to hear that CS. Thanks.
Another reason why temp stable powders in reloading are super important.
What are good stable temp powders in your opinion?
@@AlaskanBallistics h4350 is king of all medium slow powders along with varget however put a couple shells in the freezer and shoot them along side your others
I really enjoy your videos Ron. I’ve enjoyed almost50 years of hunting and enjoying the outdoors. The information you pass and the content of them are enjoyable as well as beneficial. It saddens me to see the moral fabric and compass of this beautiful country of ours deteriorate. Hunting and the outdoors and our way of life is very critical for my wellness. Thanks again Ron
Thank you, John. I believe the moral compass has swung so wildly to the crazy, foolish side that folks will finally wake up and demand change. Just hope it doesn't have to be violent. History is not on our side.
Ron makes it so easy to understand, entertaining and so pleasant to watch.
Brilliant.
Thank you for doing this vid its important
Yep
As a guy who always goes to the same gun range, I never even thought of the influence of altitude on the zero of a rifle. Good video!
Thank you Ron I wish I learned this on Wednesday. Yesterday I went sheep hunting at 10800ft with my 6.5 creedmore using 143gr eld x ammo. There was a giant black hawaiian mouflon ram 400 yards away. The sun was heating everything up at this point. I over compensated and shot just right over his back. Hell or high water im gonna get me that black ram next time.
Jeez, that's too bad. Well, I think we'll all been there done that.
eye opening Ron!! fantastic! you explained this perfectly!!!!
Thanks bangs!
Awesome info Ron. Thanks for the facts.
Thank you Doug.
love your content. very very informative and engaging without a kill shot! thanks again Ron
Thanks for all you do, including braving out into the cold and snow these past few videos including the past two videos on lever guns that I enjoyed.
Way to bring the science. I try and use powders that are not temperature sensitive when I can. My youngest brother was going to order a CDS dial for his 7mm Rem Mag for his mule deer 🦌 hunt in Idaho in 2019. We are at 1200 ft above sea level and there it was in that 6500-7500 range. According to those charts he wouldn't have had to spend the $75 for the dial. Which he didn't anyway since he took his 270 Winchester that had a Windplex turret on it instead. He is much more consistent and accurate with that rifle so that gave him confidence.
Side note, you used in this test a caliber that I have wanted for a while. A 22-250 that can actually shoot those 70+ grain bullets with speed.
Congratulations on your monster Nebraska whitetail too.
My parents have the same stone backsplash in the living room around the fireplace. Love these information videos and I feel right at home 👍
Hi Ron: I read one your articles about creating the .260 Rem. rifle. Beautiful. Then, I got in on the 2nd. season of Wildcraft: West of Somewhere. Didn't care much for the first 2-3 episodes at the ranch, on the road, etc. But, when you finally got after the auodad my interest perked. Great video, and I look forward to watching more.
Really enjoy your video's. I find that your explanations make sense to me and I understand the concepts, some of the other people on TH-cam not so much.
Thabnks Dave. That's what I try to accomplish -- making thing understandable. Don't always succeed!
You just made MY DAY. I've always gotten slack about how I think trajectory really doesn't change that much when considering temps and altitude. I've ONLY GONE by MY FINDINGS and keep in mind that I'm No Scientist or mathematician.
I just keep my AIM the same no matter the elevation or temps and seem to get on target without making any adjustments........THEN I keep my Game Shooting under 450yrds MAX these days...been out at the 550yrds but didn't get the instant kills so my new limit is at least a hundred yards shorter...FOR ME.
You've dispelled the myths and put it ALL into perspective according to distance, temp and elevation for us laymen hunters.
Thanks again Ron and Please KEEP 'EM COMING.
Best Channel on TH-cam!
Very kind of you Thomas.
A friend who was army sniper ,he said next to body in the thermo underwear they had a pocket to put the pouch of 5-10 .338 Lap Mag cartridges in . Due to the cold affecting the ammo, rifle was zsroed with body temp ammo.
Yes, some powders are quite sensitive to temp change. New powders are increasingly modified to remain constant.
Ron, we were on an subarctic Caribou hunt 10 years ago in January. There happened to be what they call an Article outflow.
This is a blast of extreme cold from the arctic. The thermometer hit -48c or -54 f on one day.
Of the many extreme things that happen under those conditions, 1 thing stands out. my partner & I, were travelling on ski-doo.
A lone caribou was walking across a pond. From a small hill at 150 yards, I fired one shot. We both looked at the rifle, because the noise was like nothing Ive ever heard, it made noise but not a blast. Partner says what happened, did it fire, however the Caribou had collapsed mid stride hit behind front shoulder. Other weird things about extreme cold..
No hand loads worked. (Expert handloaders, properly sealed cases etc.)
Some rifled actions will not open or close, most are difficult to open or close , light pin strikes( even properly degreased..etc)
Thankfully, that weather only lasted for 1 day, and then we were back to normal -30c or warmer.
Great video! As you noted, for most hunting inside 400 yards the difference isn't often enough to make a difference... however many powders give drastically different muzzle velocity with these 80 degree swings. What does the affect of that , muzzle velocity change, coupled with altitude and temperature changes have?
Shooting on warm days way up in the Wind River Range in Wyoming is amazing; everything shoots so much flatter!
Ron....good info. Nothing like some good ol Idaho weather to test this stuff in
Great explanation!
Leaving tomorrow to go out west on an Idaho elk hunt. Great video, thanks for the information.
Here's again my idol this is a very interesting episode.
Ron looks like you've paid a visit to Barney's in Anchorage. Nice jacket 👌
At the ranges I tend to shoot I noticed on your charts there was no real differences. But then I don't see myself ever shooting anything past 250 yards max.
I know this random but I lost my job of five years and thank the Lord I have new job and watching your channel was the only think that really cheered me up when I lost my job
I just watched this again...extremely interesting topic..great video ! And comment on the deer..that was an outstanding impressive whitetail !! Congrats Ron !
Thanks Cam. Glad you enjoyed.
Im on a 5 night stretch at work and binge watching this channel……so far Ive loved every video. Between this one and MeatEater Im picking up new info every episode.
Welcome aboard! Glad to have you.
Great info!
Thank you for all your videos.
Glad you like them!
Great Deer in Nebraska! Godspeed!
Thankyou for this video, I am just about to head away on a winter Bull Tahr hunt and am sighted in at sea level and will be hunting at 1200m, this info confirms what I felt would happen, most of my hunting is kept within 400m anyway, Cheers from New Zealand
Love your content, Ron. Have a comment for the algorithm.
Thanks Aaron. Feel free to add your algorithm content whenever. The more we learn from one another the better.
Damn Ron hope you're staying warm! That snow looks thick!
We cut and stacked 3 cords of hard maple firewood, so we've been cozy. Snow is melting now! We need the moisture.
Once again i learned a lot from you sir. Thank you very much! Realy appreciate it. Greets from the Netherlands, Tonny.
Thank you Wild Weasel.
awesome!
Hunting high in Colorado...
You'd think he was more concerned about the Pringles in his backpack than ballistics tables.
On a serious note, thanks for the content. I was a ballistician in a previous life. Love it!
Thank you.
As an outfitter in Saskatchewan all my life I saw most of my client's rifle's to be low and off zero (80%) , on Sunday we spent all day rezeroing rifle's one shot at a time on a cold barrel !
Makes sense, Bruce. Colder air, denser air. You were wise to make them zero.
Thanks Ron, great stuff. I’d be interested to know if larger caliber bullets would be affected by changes in altitude to a greater extent due to the increase in drag when compared to the .22 caliber. I noticed a larger difference with my .270 when compared to what that chart indicates that I should have experienced. I zeroed my rifle right at sea level for 200 yards, and rechecked it at around 5400ft above sea level. It was hitting about 3” higher at 200yds at the higher elevation. I could have goofed something, but I didn’t drop or notice any impacts to the rifle, and I was quite confident in my work. I wonder if the larger diameter bullet made a difference at that shorter difference. It was also a bit warmer when I zeroed the rifle. I love your work, thanks for sharing with everyone. -Denver
What an awesome channel. What an awesome explanation. You have a way to explain things that makes them easy to understand. I appreciate your work. Thank you.
You are most welcomed, Acordeonero.
I would like to know how much a cold rifle or cold ammo effects your zero. I was in northern Wisconsin a few weeks ago and left my ar15 a2 w iron sights in my truck in - 20 degree weather. When I went to the range it was probably 10 degrees out. My ammo was room temp when I left but I'm sure it cooled down while I was at the range shooting. I wonder how much of a shift their would be using a cold gun and cold ammo vs if I were to shoot this summer with a warm gun and warm ammo. Or if you mix a cold gun with warm ammo or warm gun with super. Cold ammo. So many variables. Awesome video!
Good points, Cory. I was going to include the powder temp. in this, but, liek adding the angled shooting, it becomes too much for most viewers to sit through. More complicated, too. But it does reinforce the truth of the absolute best answer to all of this: get closer! Bad news on powders is that they can lose power with cold. And just how much varies from powder to powder. And with factory ammo we don't know what that powder is. Best we can do is test fire frozen vs. ambient temperature loads and see drop difference on paper or chronograph. Good news is most powders are being reformulated to be temperature insensitive, leaving one less thing to worry about.
As someone who hunts all fall and winter here, you need to zero for the weather. For deer at sub 150 yards it's not relevant but for varmint size targets you need to either zero with cold ammo or pocket-warm ammo and certain sorts of powder are to sensitive, single base extruded is the go-to, double base can affect velocity up to 10%
Here in Wisconsin the weather can go from 70 and sunny to -20 the next day, so having temp stable powder is important.
Was looking for a fellow Wisconsinite in the comments. I am kinda curious how much our most extreme temps could affect the powder. We can get down to -50's with windchill and I can't imagine that's healthy for anything (even us Wisconsinites are forced to say it's a bit nippy when it hits -50 :P).
Obviously nobody would be hunting in that type of weather, that's take shelter type of weather, but I'm curious if someone were to shoot in it, how much would it affect things. Curiosity might kill the cat with me this winter if we hit that haha
@@fenner1986 I usually leave my gun in the truck (cased overnight)... I wonder how much slower the ammo will be if I left the ammo in their overnight as well. It's got to have an effect. I know the higher end ammo usually has some temp resistant powders but it's still a great question.
Bit jelly of you all out west. All I got to hunt is whitetail, rabbits, and coyotes and I'm not much a coyote hunter. Hard to find in the UP of Michigan and it seems to me you need all kids of electronic wizardry to even get a sight on one.
Good video, Mr. Spomer.
Thanks Prof.
You could hide an entire mid-level physics education in these videos.
I'm always cold and High on opening day. Probably should wear warmer socks and my problems would be solved ;)
We miss your Podcast!!!
Awesome vid!
Thanks Darren.
Excellent as always, Ron. Hate to miss Betsy.
Thanks blindboy. We'll get her back in here soon. Covey, too.
I remember having to study my charts as my father pick out random ranges and if I got one wrong I didn't get to go on that trip. But I made my boys learn the same way
think you could teach someone at 48 years old thats never even tried to shoot those distances
Great Video!
I live at 6k and my hunting varies between 5300k to 11k. I don't notice a huge difference when taking game from 50ish to 400ish yards.
Love your vids ron
Density Altitude matters. The nice thing about running a Kestrel with AB is that is all calculated...
I live at 9,000 ft and do a lot of shooting here so all my sights are set for here.
This explains why i hit low down at the range at 3,800 ft.
There are many programs you can install on your phone that will give you density altitude. Used mostly for flying but work fine for shooting
I experience this. It's exaggerated with my handloaded barnes 300 black 120gr. I can't wait to get a deer this year with it. I'm very happy with 2425fps (at 5800 ft above sea)
Nice job! I should be so lucky to be hunting at 10,000 feet. Maybe someday!
Thanks Robert. I hope you get there. I think my record is 14,000 feet.
I have a MOA shift from summertime in Colorado to Winter time of a half MOA. For some reason I tend to have more consistent groups in the winter VS summer. I’m not sure if this is due to cold air being “cleaner” or not. I do know that snow is referred to as “dry.” A person can brush a snowy log off and light a fire, but water you cannot do, so maybe the atmosphere becomes as such with less humidity? I did shoot in Texas one time and my optic was maxed out at 1300 yds, and when I got back home I was curious about this extra seeming drop… my Kestrel (handheld weather station) changed and said I could get out to 1750-1800 yds before maxing out my optic. I used to shoot older school with DOPE charts from countless shooting and when traveling to comps in NM I would have saddening results. After my Kestrel however I could switch environments seamlessly. So I find it almost a necessity to become either a weatherman and ballistician, or invest in a Kestrel to give real time feedback on the environment.
Great video and information but The bigger factor in that 456 yard shot landing high was the fact you were shooting uphill steep uphill or downhill shots drop less
just a thought. I think it's a good idea to test fire and check your gun at a range in the area your going to be hunting in and rezero if necessary then you can confidently shoot at game and confirm any ballistic change before going into the field.
Norma does research on impacts on temperature of your ammunition and impact points. Suggestion is to keep your ammo warm next to your body.
2nd question. When it get a cold metal contracts. How much impact does this have on muzzle velocity.
Hey Ron, do a vid on trajectory changes due to shooting angle...No hunter probably ever shoots at 0 degree angle. I noticed your target was at an up hill angle. LOL.
Check out this report I did on that subject: www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/uphill-downhill-shooting-dilemma-solved?rq=uphill%20downhill%20shooting
I believe humidity can have an impact as well. colder the air the less moisture it can retain. Do we ever have to worry about barrels expanding or contracting when in extreme climates? Great Stuff here and keep up the awesome work!
Thanks Sam. Yes, humidity has a small effect, generally not worth worrying about. Makes for less drag, so shots go higher, but barely. Nitrogen molecules are more dense than water, so humidity reduces drag. Barrel swelling/shrinking not an issue I've ever heard of except for thin barrels heating up and warping/wandering from hot loads or high volume. Accuracy suffers. Best to zero for cold barrel first shot success with these.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors Thank you so much for the response Mr. Spomer. That Humidity fact is something i had backwards! I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. Please keep up the great work! I find it very useful as someone who is now getting back into the world hunting.
Great video 👍👌
Thanks Karl.
I live in Iowa and the air is heavy and dense so I'm sure it will drop off more
Odd caliber to use for discussing big game hunting out west at elevation, would think 270, 30-06 or 7mm RM would be a more useful example. I might have missed it but what about high elevation and warmer temperatures. In my 30 years of hunting deer in Utah I have been at 7 thousandish feet in snow storms and days where I was perspiring in a T shirt. My nit picking aside this is a great subject to discus. When I get to hunting camp I run my ballistic app on my phone using prevailing conditions to check my drops. If needed I will make a new drop card for the current situation. Exactly like you said out to 400-450 yards its not much but nice to be precise as possible.
The cartridge/bullet were just props for illustrating the points which are: the higher you go, the less the drag. The colder it gets, the more the drag. And vice versa. And all altered slightly by actual barometric (weather) changes from day to day. But, again, not much to worry about inside of 400 yards or so. Still, as you note, nice to know and be as precise as possible without having an anxiety attack over it.
Hey Ron anesthesiologist here. Air doesn’t become thinner as you go higher in elevation your partial pressure drops. Concentration of oxygen is the same but it’s a pressure difference. This is why you need oxygen above 10,000 feet. 02 % is still 21% but the pressure is so low it don’t diffuse across into your lungs aka alveolar gas equation. Same thing with the bullet pressure is lower so there is less drag on the bullet.
I read something like this once before but didn't cogitate on it long enough to absorb. So, different effect, same results? But... surely oxygen and nitrogen molecules at altitude eventually thin into nothing, right?
@@RonSpomerOutdoors as pressure deceases gas molecules will start to separate as far away from each other in a fixed space but the number is the same the only time the amount changes is at extreme altitude or you exit the atmosphere. It matters in anesthesia for our volatile anesthetics at altitude and 02 blood absorption. For shooting there is less drag but it’s from pressure and temperature not a change of % of gases. Your still the best Ron love your channel.
@@drdes9609 Your first sentence here about gas molecules separating far from each other is exactly what I think of as thinner air, so I'm not to far off base, right? Thanks for educating me! I'll undoubtedly need more.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors separating but not less so it’s not thinner as in less (amount). The best way to think of it is an attitude chamber they pump in just regular air but when they reduce the pressure to to simulate 20-40k feet everyone gets loopy. Oxygen isn’t diffusing across. I’ve experienced this cause I’m actually an Air Force doc and they let us try it out. You were sure on the right track but it’s the pressure change. It’s probably the only subject related to guns I could ever educate you on. Thanks for teaching me.
You can call it less dense or thinner. There is a reason jet aircraft make use of turbines to compress their engine input air at altitude and the lower density of air at high altitudes results in a a significant reduction of drag which causes greater speed and less fuel consumption per mile Bullets are going to act the same with regards to higher altitude equaling less drag.
Just use a proper powder like the 4166, 4451 or 4955 and don't worry about temperature.
I believe if you spend $10,000 dollars for a hunt of a lifetime makes hunting accuracy a tiny more important than shooting a ten on a paper target. Shooting long ranges and not being proficient doing it is a costly mistake. Most outfitters and hunting guides tend to frown on shooting at trophy animals at extreme distances. Fact is they don’t let clients do it; because they are the ones responsible to recover the animal for the client. Chasing after a poorly shot Elk is no fun at all; Bears are worse. If you insist doing it and wound an animal; don’t expect another chance until your next $10,000 dollar expedition. Trophy animals are too important to waste pulling stupid tricks. That is a seldom mentioned secret most outfitters don’t talk about.
Who pays 10k for outfitters? Most tags are cheap and it is way more fun to do it yourself on public land with friends and family!
Ron you missed a big factor. That target up the hill was 456 yds by laser. But just a 20 degree angle uphill reduced the ballastic distance to 428 yds. Folks not factoring ANGLE may miss a shot.
Yeah, we'll cover angled shooting in another video. That angle was only 10.5-degrees.
@ 1776: Yep, that's correct. Gravity has less time to work upon angled shot than a straight-and-level one, so you have to hold low whether you are shooting up or down-hill. How much depends on the angle. An angle-cosine device can help with that, and some range-finders now include "true ballistic range" features for high-angle shooting. A Whiz Wheel or Mil-Dot Master also does the correction. Dope it out back at base camp, and laminate a card to your rifle or carry it easy at hand.
All other variables being equal, increased altitude should require less elevation hold since the air is less-dense than at sea level. Or "altitude up, sights down." Whereas the increased cold, all else being equal, is going to lessen the rate at which combustion occurs - cold slows down chemical reactions of all kinds - and also produce less-gas pressure behind the projectile than at lower altitude. Or, "temperature down, sights up." What was probably seen with that 450 yard shot with your existing ~ 1,000 feet above sea level zero, was the two effects more-or-less cancelling out one another.
Seasoned long-range shooters use a number of methods to account for these variables. By compiling a thorough data (DOPE) book, under a wide variety of environmental conditions, once enough data has been collected, it can be highly-predictive and very useful. Using a good climate meter, as well as a high-quality ballistics program, also helps a great deal. If you really want to go the extra mile, you can buy an infra-red thermometer and along with a chronograph or doppler radar, you can track MV of a particular load versus ammo temperature. Once you get enough data points, the curve can be used to predict adjustments needed at various temperatures. The old-school way was to make sure your rifle and ammo are the same temperature as the surrounding environment, i.e., at ambient temperature, when chronograph readings are done. Conversely, if you find yourself hunting up high and in cold conditions, and want to squeeze a little extra MV out of your load, store it near your body core for warmth, or lay the shells in the sun for a few minutes to warm up.
Seasoned LR/ELR shooters - whether professional soldiers, hunters, or competitors - tend to want to check/confirm/adjust their zeros every time they change density-altitude. Generally moving up/down 1000 feet is enough to throw off your zero at least a bit. As others commenting have noted, temperature-stable propellants have made the job of accounting for changing environmental conditions considerably easier than in the past.
I'd like to see how the elevation (sight angle) and humidity affect trajectory. Good vid.
Noted
I don't know that I have ever hunted below 6000 feet. I live at 7544 feet. I have never worried about altitude and air density affecting my shots. What I have wondered about is whether snow flakes will deflect the bullet. During a snow storm there are no long shots but I know a 200 yard shot will hit snow flakes if it is snowing hard. Just wondering.
I love your videos. Keep them coming. Question on this one. Doesn't the temp potentially alter your powder burn and therefore your muzzle velocity? They talk about temp stable powders. Your tables kept the muzzle velocity the same, but I think (scary :-) ) there are more variable at play here than just temp and alt.
Yes, Tommy, temperature sensitive powders can change pressures/mv significantly. That is a topic I'll cover in a future video. Thanks.
Cold air will also have lower humidity than warm air. Humid air is more dense than dry air. Just another variable that is probably not significant unless it is raining heavily.
Water in air makes for less drag because nitrogen molecules are heavier than water. But not enough dif. to worry about.
10° is cold? If you forgot your jacket it would be, but properly dressed its no issue. Also a buddy heater is your buddy, it can be -30 ill just turn up my heater lol. When I was a teen I didn't have a heater, below zero temps still never stopped me from hunting.
Gotta admit, I, by default, respect a man that goes shooting in adverse weather.
Where I grew up you either hunted cold or not at all! 40-below is my record. It was not fun.
This made me think about the ballistics if fired from the space station at a point in the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy, which is 236,000,000,000,000,000 km (25,000 light years) away. My calculations are that there would be zero drop, and at 3200 fps, would take 944 trillion light years(to the 12th power) to reach target, with NO drift or loss of speed.
Would solar winds anywhere along the route interfere?
@@RonSpomerOutdoors That's the only thing I didn't take into consideration.
The opening video shows an upward angle shot, which can hit a bit high. Can you do a video on shooting at up and down angles? (both can hit high) Great videos and content.
I second this suggestion for a topic.
Where van i find the charts on altatude changing bullet drop and wind drift for rifles and pistols.
Thanks ahead of time for your wisdom.
Ephesians 3:20 is so TRUE!
Hi Ron. I watch this video. and i have a question. High altitude low temp and cold cartriges must have an inpact on muzzel velocity and energy and have an inpact on the ballistic
Hi Ron, what twist rate, barrel length and AI degree shoulder do you run in the 22-250? Many thanks, Spaz.
Ha, come to sweden and hunt capercaillie or grouse. Shot 200-300 meter and the target is at most 10 cm (grouse) or 15cm (capercaile).. and temperature can be anything from -1 C to -40.. better handle that ammo properly as the ammo temperature can shift up to 10% in velocity between outside temperature and "pocket" temperature.
Sometimes its so cold and the air gets in layers between cold and less cold air, making it act like water shifting the targets location. Many missed shots due to mirage-like conditions.
Those are some challenging conditions for sure! Glad I crawled under my capercaillie and shotgunned them.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors yeah, early season you can take them in flight but in dec-feb there is 2 meter snow and skiis are required. Hard to shoot and move then. But it's regarded the most demanding form of hunting in Scandinavia, Long Range small targets and tough conditions.. and two days work for couple lbs of meat might not seem worth it but it is :)
@@jmkhenka The adventure alone should be worth it.
Are you using the online JBM ballistics program? Keep up the great work on your video presentations. 👍
I do use that one among others. Thanks.
Ron very good video thank you for making such good content, one question what software/ website do you use for your ballistics charts?
I check several including JBM, Shooter's Calculator, Hornady, and Ballistic phone ap.
Personally, I think taking a shot at 400yds is beyond ethical. It does not exhibit hunting skills.
How much does humidity count for? 90 equals higher humidity vs 10 at lower humidity. I know humidity is VERY variable, but it can account for some of the differences.
Not really enough to worry about.
I'm debating which rifle to buy for my young boy to start learning. The most important thing to me at this age is light recoil. Im considering 243, 6.5, or 308. Which do you consider will have less recoil? Considering the stocks are made of the same material. As I know lighter guns have more recoil.
A 243 Win with and 80-87 grain bullet is a good way to go, depending on what game you're hunting. After learning to shoot a real rifle, they might not be bothered moving up to the 100 gr bullet. I shot a 243 as a young teenage boy, and later in college. I got a 6.5 for my daughter (30), and she felt it kicked 'too much'.
Using a 300y zero for your comparison, would you count on rezeroing when you travelled to high elevation to maintain your zero? If you did not reset your zero you would see a shift that would change your drop numbers as you gain shot distance.
Yes, your trajectory curve would change due to reduced drag. How much is highly variable, so always smart to re-zero. However, your drops and deflection would change, too, so your custom turret might no longer be valid. Gets complicated at long range.
You were also shooting pointing your gun up therefore the bullet is going to connect to the target is closer. All of your figures are computed at the level. While your pointing you gun up rather then on the level. Of course distance is going to cause the flight of the bullet to raise higher in flight therefore the air at the apex of the bullets flight the air is thinner.
What is the application you use to build this charts kind sir
Nobody going out west hunting in the mountains it's going to be using a 22-250 if he was going to illustrate this point you should have used a 270 or a 6.5 Creedmoor something going about 2,600 feet per second. His bullets were going 3200 ft per sec...
My 45/70 doesn’t change enough trajectory at any elevation to make me scared 😎
How much of a temp change make a major difference? Our Australian summer is normally about 35-40 degrees Celsius and winter gets down to -1 degree Celsius.
Powders are different, my experience with double base vihtavuori n5xx is almost 10% shift in velocity from +20 c to -10. Less then half that with single base n1xx. I get more velocity with n530 but when the temp drops, n133 is faster.
And developing loads at -10c can create a lot of issues if shot at +30c during summer.
Run some ballistic charts and you'll get your answer, Lead Slinger. It's not huge difference for shots to 400 yards or so, but worth noting. What Henrik addresses below is a related issue, potential powder sensitivity to cold. Some powders are, some are not. This is in addition to the change in atmospheric drag.
Now do the same with a low bc hunting bullet? That makes all the differences larger
Yes, sir. Bullets with low B.C. lose more energy to air drag faster than high B.C. bullets, so drops and deflections are always greater.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors thks for replying. I found hunting in Montana that all my tables had to be readjusted since i was shooting at only 2600 fps
SOLUTION: Carry a Kestrel 5700 weather meter/ballistic engine loaded with either Applied Ballistics or Hornady 4 DOF ballistics. Get the range and input it not the Kestrel 5700 and BINGO! Now you have your answer B/C the Kestrel has the temperature, air pressure , distance and your rifle and cartridge data.
The price of a Kestrel 5700 is in the $500. range but for a $4,000. hunt it is "insurance IF you load it with correct data and practice using it.
Beautiful rack Ron, what are your thoughts on the 224 valkyrie in a bolt gun? Been looking at one pretty hard! Or 7mm08, 30/06, 308? Mostly for deer, Coyote and just target 🎯 shooting to stay sharp. Any thoughts on the matter would be greatly appreciated, thanks. Stay safe and God bless 🇺🇸☠️🇺🇸!!!
Valkyrie is fine, but also consider 24 Nosler. Or a 22 CM or 22-250 Rem. AI with fast twist barrel. OR the 22 TTH (22-6mm Rem.)
If a bolt gun don't waste energy on ar15 limited calibers. With one exception, 6.5 grendel. With a bolt action a short action you have more options, 308 is well regarded but for extensive long range a 7mm is good but it requires a fast twist barrel. 6.5 creedmoor is perhaps even more suited..
But if you where scandinavian i would say 6.5*55 :)
I hate it when I'm cold and high.
What lead you to move to a 22 250 AI? Are you shooting more than varmints?
I'd listen you talk about just about anything